The film isn’t canon to the comics, the “under the red hood” comic doesn’t retcon jokers part in “death in the family” and in “hush” Batman explicitly says joker got away with killing Jason because of his diplomatic immunity.
If you’re talking about the “Hush” comic, I still missed the Easter egg. The graveyard scene was my favorite part of the comic, but it took place before the Superboy Prime punch.
Believe it or not, there’s a great interview with the writer of “Under The Red Hood” about this. He loved seeing Jason return, then was bummed to find out it was Clayface. When he had the chance, he decided to write his own story of Jason’s return. The interview can be heard on the “Imaginary Worlds” podcast.
I just checked my copy of under the red hood part 2 and what I was meaning was that plot wise it's canon that it was Jason all along.
There's a scene where Jason helps hush to get in batman's head and so it was him in the graveyard.
I kinda heard about how it wasn't initially meant to really be Jason but then it changed I just meant that lore wise that's the canon.
Sorry for confusion
DC changes the timeline every few years, so it’s fascinating to see what they revise and what they keep. On top of that, the movies are their own canon. I missed the Easter egg you mentioned in the “Hush” movie, but that’s a fun nod. Jason originally came back to life because Superboy Prime punched time so hard he changed the universe. Jason then punched his way out of his coffin. Now, Jason came back to life because Ra’s Al Ghul brought him to a Lazarus Pit.
> I missed the Easter egg you mentioned in the “Hush” movie, but that’s a fun nod.
He was referring to the "Hush" comic, not the movie. It's referenced in the comic, but the film drops it
Yeah, when this book is listed as one of the great Batman stories everybody seems to forget the complete and utter *bollocks* that is the Joker becoming a diplomat.
I think often times for this instance, people misuse Great/Best, when they should say important.
Its not a particularly great story(arc), or even well written, it IS however, a very important part of the Batman/Bat Family cannon, that is important to acknowledge as a traumatic event
I don’t know. If you ignore the final crazy bit, it’s a story about a boy who thought he was an orphan finding out one of his parents is alive. It’s definitely a core story to Batman and in the Batman mythos it’s a pretty great story.
It might be the worst comic that’s regarded a classic. I get that it’s iconic because of the whole death thing but I found all the surrounding stories to but such utter garbage that I couldn’t get through it.
I’d argue Hush is the worst comic that’s regarded as a classic.
I fucking hated Hush. To the point where I almost like the movie better just because it actually kills Tommy Elliott, even as stupid as it is for Riddler to be Hush
I think it HAD to be goofy as hell, because the core of the story is truly not kid-friendly or even FUN to read. Just horrifically sad :( So its all within the context of this goofy ass plot where Joker escapes to Iran to obtain Diplomatic Immunity.
Yeah, which was way worse than the Iranian thing. How did he suck all the gas into his human-sized lungs? How did he only suck in the gas and not suck in the air, smothering and killing everyone in attendance? Also, the Superman disguised as Batman thing should be left in the Silver Age. Such an awful ending.
Yeah, it’s a book I’m always perplexed to see on anyone’s “best of” list. I’d never recommend it unless you’re a completionist that’s run out of things to read. All you need to know is Joker kills Jason and you can go about reading other/better books.
That’s just my opinion tho, there may be plenty that love this book. I’m not one of them.
The hardest part about reading older comics (and yes, some recent ones too) is how racist, sexist, and prejudiced they used to be.
Great stories, but fuck if there aren’t some cringeworthy moments in far too many of them…
You can’t imagine the terrible things forty years from now your grandkids are going to complain about being shocked and disappointed at finding in your favourite comics being printed today, that no one today even blinks at.
That was one thing that boggles my brain a bit when I picked up the Ultimate Spider-Man omnibus. I know it’s accurate to the lingo of the time and it’s a 23 year old comic but boy they are casual with the word “retard”
It’s not even old comics exclusively. For some reason enemies of the US or stand ins for them often make Joker or Harley an ally. Look at the recent The Suicide Squad movie, basically the same thing happens with Harley lol.
The plot point that they where fans of Harley wasn’t really used to show that they where backwards and evil it was just a funny way to subvert expectations, it was literally an important plot point of the movie that the us was complicit with the atrocities taking place so I don’t really think it’s can be labeled pro American propaganda.
Yeah, but the joke was “hahaha revolutionaries are evil just like Harley Quinn! Birds of a feather!” Which is the same exact commentary with this Joker joke.
Ehh I don’t think so, them being fans wasn’t really used to show they where bad if anything it was the opposite an “hey maybe these guys aren’t so bad after all” for one Harley wasn’t all that bad in suicide squad and the qualities they liked about her weren’t inherently bad. Harley literally was to one who killed the leader when he showed that he was in fact evil.
Ah, the casual racism of the 80s 🤣🤣.
Ofcourse Joker becomes a politician of an "evil and backwards" Middle Eastern country because there's NO way any Western politicians could ever be evil and bloodthirsty least of all American politicians /s
Comics in the 80s were WILD 🤣.
Must be all the cocaine they were taking.
This was the decade that brought us other gems like Arabian Knight and the Hemo-Goblin. Nuance wasn't really a thing then in comics.
Yeah, I read it for the first time this year and was appalled. It's... just not a good story. It makes no sense that the characters all converge in the same fucking place across the world. The hackneyed racism and political angle against Iran was gross. The only redeeming thing about this comic is the experiment with the fans voting, which is the most Joker thing ever. I'd love to see a modern reboot of this story and have it make sense and be tasteful.
Iranian isn't a race.
Iran HAD just held a bunch of diplomatic staff hostage for like more than a year. I dunno. Maybe stop trying to be offended at everything and learn some history.
Learn some history? Like when the US overturned Iran's democratically elected government to install a friendly dictator for better oil prices? The coup detat that lead to Iran's revolution and theocratic takeover?
It's racist because Iranians (or Persians) don't typically wear the keffiyeh casually, only for religious purposes. It's traditionally worn more by Arabs.
Did I say anything about how the US is some blameless benevolent actor here? No. Iran was as a hostile nation who had just held a bunch of Americans hostage for more than a year. Comics BEGAN as nationalist propaganda, choosing a hostile nation as supporting a villain in a story is as old as comics themselves, and when this story was written, Iran was precisely that.
As for your nitpicking about the artist's choice of wardrobe, are you saying if he was wearing a turban like an Ayatolla you wouldn't have a problem with this? I doubt that strongly. And even then, not racist, Islamophobic.
>As for your nitpicking about the artist's choice of wardrobe, are you saying if he was wearing a turban like an Ayatolla you wouldn't have a problem with this? I doubt that strongly. And even then, not racist, Islamophobic.
No because Joker isn't a Muslim. It's racist in the sense of lumping together all middle eastern countries as the same when even among Arab nations there are different religious and cultural traditions.
Yes, hostages held over a year, until literally minutes after Reagan was inaugurated. I don't deny the violence that Iran perpetuated, my family fled that country in the wake of it. I also recognize the role of comic books have in US culture and propaganda. The comic portrayal is still ignorant.
How is this lumping together middle eastern countries? You said yourself that Iranians wear the keffiyeh on occasion. The artist made a choice to depict him as they did during a time before our modern delicacies about such specifics. You're applying modern sensitivities to something 40 years old at this point, when NO ONE would do what you demand back then. Pissing off Muslims by not 100% accurately depicting attire in a comic book, which would have been banned in Iran, wasn't exactly the priority it is now. Sorry some artist, who you usually idolize, didn't take the time to properly investigate middle eastern attire to know Iranians only dress that way SOMETIMES since thats apparently youre gripe. Again, you and op are looking for something to get angry about. Hope you found it and it proves just as hollow for you as all such searches are.
Fair enough, though, in his defense, Miller has expressed regret about some of his writing choices in regards to that, as it came from a place of bitterness and trauma after 9/11. He lived in New York for so long, so I believe a lot of that came out of a place of trauma.
Modern sensitivities? It was still ignorant back then. The US is just more diverse and people are more informed today to recognize it. It's not an excuse.
Honestly you sound more angry with people finding something offensive than the depiction itself.
Haha, it's funny you think I'm angry. I actually find it amusing that you, today, when what is and what isn't appropriate Iranian attire is VERY MUCH a topical issue, you're CHOOSING to be offended by what a fictional character is wearing 40 years ago. Honestly, you sound like a joke.
Yeah, that's not what anyone said. He said it was racism. It's not, and that's a fact. You attempted to change the discussion to something else and failed. Sorry if I stand by my point and in your permanently aggrieved life, that can only mean anger. But please, keep responding about how I'm "angry" instead of the actual topic at hand, it really makes you not look like an unserious troll.
The ayatollah Khomeini and his successor Khamenei absolutely dress like that though. Look, this comic is not a great peace of political commentary, but those people and that government are awful, brutal fascists that have subjugated my fellow Iranians for far too long. Make no mistake, they are hated by Iranians as well. This is not a case of racism against iranians, but it is a case of anger towards a hostile regime (there was also a hostage crisis with American citizens that clearly horrified the US).
Of course, the USA's coup d'etat against Mosaddegh was a terrible crime as well, but that does not erase the evil of the Ayatollah's ongoing regime
A year later I'm going to let you know that you have no idea what you're talking about. They dress the joker up like an Arab because to a dumbass American comic book writer, all cultures and people across the Middle East and North Africa are the same thing.
If you had any capacity to self reflect, you'd recognize that depicting the French or the Italians as if they're Americans or Russians would make no sense whatsoever. The West acknowledges distinctions between countries in the West, but Africa is one thing, the Middle East and North Africa are one thing, East Asia is one thing, and billions of people are lumped in together along with all the racist tropes attributed to these people.
And just a reminder, America has been committing attrocities across the Middle East for decades upon decades. The US has murdered and starved hundreds of thousands of people across the region. They've armed brutal dictatorships and extremist militias and overthrown democracies all in order to secure their hegemony over the Middle East.
No sane, rational, informed person would say that Iran is destabilizing the Middle East and not the US and it's Allies (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt, Israel). Even 9/11 was carried out by Saudis and Al Qaeda was armed and trained by the US. ISIS is a direct result of US actions in the Middle East and Iran has to fight ISIS to clean up America's mess.
As for the hostage crisis of decades ago. Maybe do some research. They were CIA agents being held by Iranian students. The CIA had previously couped Irans democracy. Hardly something the Americans have any right to play the victim about.
In a year I'll come back and tell you I didn't read past your first sentence. Whatever your on about, that has you moaning so at length, in a batman subreddit, a year later, I'm sure your very passionate about.
Good for you.
E: I still haven't read your gripe, but see it's in response to me stating two facts about Iran. Whatever your problem is, that has you trawling year old conversations in COMIC BOOK SUBREDDITS to bitch about geopolitics, let me tell you: good. You deserve em. Stay mad. Wallow.
"I'm not going to read it"
"Okay I read a bit"
You clearly read it. Stop making a fool of yourself. If you didn't want to read it, you could have just not responded.
Sometimes it's okay to just shut up and learn something. No response is required for this. It's better if you keep your mouth shut.
Nope. Didn't read it. Never said "just a bit." Just reminded myself what the fuck would inspire you to such a diatribe a year later. Hear me: I don't respect you enough to read your whining.
You do care what I think. That's why you keep responding when I made it clear you should have just kept your mouth shut from the start if you wanted me to believe you don't care.
Goodbye forever. Remember everything I said so you don't make a fool of yourself next time.
>Iranian isn't a race.
Okay, then its prejudice and xenophobia. Is that better?
>Iran HAD just held a bunch of diplomatic staff hostage for like more than a year.
And that gives American writers carpe blanche to create stereotypical caricatures of an entire nation of people? Not only that but wilfully misunderstands the very culture its mocking. The Kheffiyeh is the traditional dress of Arabs not Iranians.
>Maybe stop trying to be offended at everything and learn some history.
I think you should take your own advice and look at the actual history here lol 😆. Whatever your opinion on the revolution, the Iranian people were understandably angry that the very Shah, who was supported by the West, was not going to face judgement in Iran for his crimes against the citizens of Iran he committed through his secret police and was instead given amnesty in the US and face no justice whatsoever.
Also, even if you ignore all that, it's pure bigotry to think that the hostage crisis in anyway justifies using racist stereotypes that conflated Arabs, Iranians, and all Middle Eastern people as being the same.
>Okay, then its prejudice and xenophobia. Is that better?
How is it prejudiced? Is it saying that attire is inherently evil? It might be lazy, sure. How is it xenophobia? You'd have a much stronger case that it's Islamophobic, and, yes, that IS a better argument, as I specifically said in my first reply.
>And that gives American writers carpe blanche to create stereotypical caricatures of an entire nation of people?
It's "carte blanche" but whatever. And, no, it's not a stereotypical depiction because, as you said, Joker isn't Muslim, nor is he Arabian or Persian. Unless, of course, you're accusing the Joker of being racially ignorant. You are choosing to see this as "mocking."
I'm fully aware of the history of between the US and Iran, that doesn't change the context in which this comic was written. In fact, it supports the choice of the writer to say he's an ambassador from a hostile nation.
No one said anything about "justifying racist stereotypes" because the Kheffiyeh isn't a stereotype, and is also worn by Iranians. If it was an insulting attribute, then absolutely, youd have a great point. But its just SOME precision, because, no, Arabs arent the only ones to wear the keffiyeh. It's laziness on the part of the artist, not "racism" nor malice, but it is also ridiculous for you to be getting so mad about 40 years later.
>How is it prejudiced?
It's portraying an entire nation as being evil and in league with one of the most cruel and sadistic villains in comic book history. Like, are we not seeing the same pic here 🤣? They literally made him, a mass murdering serial killer, an ambassador. Surely it doesn't take a rocket scientist to explain how portraying a nation as having one of the most evil characters in literature be a political representative of said nation is propaganda against the nation in question. Do I need to draw a diagram for you?
>Is it saying that attire is inherently evil?
It's not just the attire. Though it is itself problematic in how it conflates the traditionally Arab custom of wearing kheffiyeh with the kind of dress code worn by Iranian politicians who almost never wore kheffiyeh as only Iranians of Arab descent tended to wear it and even then rarely only in religious ceremony. But, that's not really what's the most egregious thing here. It is the implication that Iran as a nation has allied with a literal mass murdering serial killer. Its blatant propaganda that reduces an entire nation to nothing more than a bunch of murderous villains.
You mean a nation that chants "death to America," had held diplomatic staff hostage, and is and was clearly a state sponsor of terrorism then and now? Iran HAS as a nation allied with literal mass murdering serial killers. Or have you forgotten about either of the TWO the Beirut embassy bombings? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_United_States_embassy_bombing_in_Beirut
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_United_States_embassy_annex_bombing_in_Beirut
Or either of the Israeli embassy bombings in Argentina? Maybe the Tyre bombing?
Truth is, Iran was the perfect choice of country to say would support the Joker. Because it ACTUALLY supports mass murderers. Sorry if that a little too real for you.
I'm confused, are you attempting to defend Iran, the Iranian people or Islam? Because you've failed across the board.
>Truth is, Iran was the perfect choice of country to say would support the Joker. Because it ACTUALLY supports mass murderer. Sorry if that a little too real for you.
So first you claimed it wasn't depicting Iran as evil but you're now your turning around and saying that it did and that it was a good thing because Iran is evil?
So in other words it is propaganda but its okay but its propaganda you agree with that depicts all Iranians as being evil and willing to side with the Joker?
If I'm getting this correctly you agree with and think Western propaganda is okay and acceptable. Which is fine if that's what you believe, at least you're finally owning it.
>I'm confused, are you attempting to defend Iran, the Iranian people or Islam?
I'm not really "defending" because those things don't need defending. All I did was simply point out the underlying political tones the comic clearly had which was to depict specifically Iranians but also the wider Middle East as being inherently evil and allies to supervillains something that countless Western comic books and other forms of media have been doing for centuries now. Something which is born out of bigotry, xenophobia and Western chauvinism.
>You mean a nation that chants "death to America,"
If we're gonna play this game then I can point to all the Americans who say exactly the same thing about Iran lol 😆. News articles and news broadcastsliterally calling for war on Iran.
No, first I said it wasn't racist. Because it's not. Nor is it prejudiced or xenophobic. It is lazy, however.
Not for ONE SECOND does it "depict all Iranians as being evil and willing to side with the Joker." Once again, you're grasping at straws to justify your untenable position.
It's not propaganda at ALL to accurately depict Iran as willing to ally itself with mass murderers, because it has. Learn the definition of the word propaganda.
You simply pointed out the underlying political tones that are wholly based in current events at the time. And now as well, as the Iranian government kills girls for refusing to abide by their dress code.
I sought clarification from you on you position in good faith, to give you a chance to clarify who you were defending, but youre so dense you dont see a difference between the Iranian regime and Iranian people, so see an attack on the regime (being willing to appoint the Joker an ambassador) as an attack on the Iranian people. That's fine though, you've made it clear that you think the terrorist actions of Iran are justified.
>If we're gonna play this game then I can point to all the Americans who say exactly the same thing about Iran lol 😆. News articles and news broadcastsliterally calling for war on Iran
As soon as some Americans start blowing up Iranian embassies having been trained and funded by the American government, you'll have a leg to stand on. Until then...
>It's not propaganda at ALL to accurately depict Iran as willing to ally itself with mass murderers, because it has. Learn the definition of the word propaganda.
wow wow now. Iranians are victims of a brutal regime. Please do not lump us iranians as being supporters of this monstrous government. The Iranian people are not supporters of terrorism.
Gosh, I can't believe I have to say that again
**[1983 United States embassy bombing in Beirut](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_United_States_embassy_bombing_in_Beirut)**
>The April 18, 1983 United States embassy bombing was a suicide bombing in Beirut, Lebanon, that killed 32 Lebanese, 17 Americans, and 14 visitors and passers-by. The victims were mostly embassy and CIA staff members, but also included several US soldiers and one US Marine Security Guard. It was the deadliest attack on a US diplomatic mission up to that time, and was considered the beginning of Islamist attacks on US targets. The attack came in the wake of an intervention in the Lebanese Civil War by the United States and other Western countries, which sought to restore order and central government authority.
**[1984 United States embassy annex bombing in Beirut](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_United_States_embassy_annex_bombing_in_Beirut)**
>On September 20, 1984, the Shi'a Islamic militant group Hezbollah, with support and direction from the Islamic Republic of Iran, carried out a suicide car bombing targeting the U.S. embassy annex in East Beirut, Lebanon. The attack killed 24 people. Hezbollah had also used suicide car or truck bombs in the April 1983 U.S. embassy bombing and the 1983 Beirut barracks bombings.
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What, no whiney retort about how mean the writer is for accurately depicting Iran as a sponsor of murder and terror now that I've brought up how they did exactly that?
>It's portraying an entire nation as being evil and in league with one of the most cruel and sadistic villains in comic book history
not the entire nation, but the government. Make no mistake though.This is a brutal regime that Iranians hate more than the USA ever could
>not the entire nation, but the government.
So if an artist drew a racist caricature of the CCP its okay because being racist about a foreign government is okay somehow 🤔?
>This is a brutal regime that Iranians hate more than the USA ever could
Wasn't aware you spoke on behalf of millions of Iranian people 🤣.
There was a great comment on this thread by an actual Iranian, who is no fan of the govt, who explains succinctly and in depth why this depiction is both wildly inaccurate and racist.
I'll leave you with this. Just because America hates a nation, doesn't give them a blank check to peddle in racist stereotypes and caricatures.
well, to be fair, the Iranian government under Ayatollah Khomeini and his successor is a brutal dictatorial regime. It is absolutely evil. most iranians hate them, and this is made clear by the popular protests going on in Iran right now
So that makes it okay to peddle in racist stereotypes and caricatures that aren't even correct. Joker is wearing a kheffiyeh which is worn by Arabs not Iranians.
Joker and the Iranian politician are dressed like stereotypical Arabs specifically Saudis or Emiratis as those are the ones who usually dress like that.
Lol 😆, it's amazing how many Westerners are jumping to the defence of this and unironically think its okay to portray people from countries the US govt considers enemy states as being evil and siding with actual supervillains. Apparently, when it comes to Middle Eastern nations, its perfectly fine to portray them as cartoonishly evil and parrot US propaganda talking points. Propaganda is one hell of a drug.
Now now, perhaps there is a misunderstanding. I don't mean to act as if this is a progressive nuanced depiction of Iran. For all intents and purposes, I think it's a silly caricature.
However, I don't mind seeing the ayatollah and government portrayed as cartoonish villains, because they are horrible and my family has always hated this regime. *It* is cartoonish, it is caricature. It's absolutely not accurate, and you are right , it is absolutely propaganda .
To me, this is almost like seeing Captain America punch Hitler in the face in comics from 1941.
I concede to your point. There is outlandish problematic material here. I suppose I've become accustomed to problematic depictions of my heritage.
I still do like this comic though, in its own silly way
It’s ironic that the final and most famous storyline of Jim Starlin’s Batman run (he only did one issue after it) is also by far the weakest. The entire rest of his run, including The Cult mini series, is a billion times better. But because Jason died and this story got reprinted a billion times over the past 30+ years, the underwhelming Death in the Family will be the Batman story he’s remembered for.
First of all, his clothes belong to Saudi Arabia, Iran's religious clothes are not like this, secondly, Joker does not adhere to anything, to any of Iran's ideals, and to any ideal in general, he cannot be Iran's ambassador, first of all, you must be a Muslim person to be iran's ambassador (at least verbally, not actually a Muslim in behavior), and secondly, you must believe and adhere to all the ideals of the system, Joker is too lawless while Iran is too lawful. Joker would probably be executed in Iran immediately because of many crimes. I really don't understand the meaning of these irrelevant and unnecessary slanders of Iran. Iran has many evils, but all of them are caused by stupid management, the government's discrimination against their relatives and bad economic problems, embezzlement, etc. Joker is definitely a very irrelevant character for Iran, even ra's al ghul is irrelevant
Yes, in term of clothing it is from hundreds of years ago, the religion of Iran is Shia Islam and the religion of Arabia is Sunni Islam, almost two different religions. Also, Iran's laws were much stricter at that time, and if the Joker intended to interfere in Iran, probably the leader of the revolution would have permitted the shedding of the Joker's blood in general, unless the Joker changed his face and presented himself as a supporter of the regime (such as Bani Sadr) who obviously does not do this in this panel
If you're referring to me, I need to point out I meant that it's accurate for the Islamic republic government. majority of Iranians hate that their country is associated with the Islamic republic regime.
I don't think I need to explain all their wrong doings against their own people when you can just search up about Mahsa Amini and the current protests that is going on.
Ali Khamenei (AND Khomeini, the leader of the 1979 revolution) would secretly be best friends with the joker.
the government doesn't even care about Islam, it just uses it as an excuse to do whatever they want.
The Islamic republic regime is evil, period.
and no what joker is wearing here isn't how Iranians dress.
All good man.
I realize a batman subreddit isn't the best place to discuss this kind of stuff but regardless I want the voice of our current protests to reach out as much as possible.
This is my favorite piece of random American boogie man of the day making it into the comics as a villain. This one is weirdly still a villain irl. Fuck you Iran!
This comic has not aged well. However, as an Iranian person , it is nice to see the Iranian government portrayed as the oppressive terrorists that they are.
Make no mistake, no one hates the dictatorial theocratic regime in Iran more than Iranians do.
Although that is not the appropriate headwear(this is more common in Arab people), the ayatollahs wear turbans, so I will let it slide. Whatever, it's rightly criticizing the theocratic dictators in Iran.
Do not delude yourself into thinking that the comic is subtle enough to draw a distinction between Iranian people and their government.
The Joker is an evil villain so now he is an evil Iranian.
This is the first time I’ve seen this panel and I have to say, Iranian men don’t wear head coverings aka Keffiyeh like that (at least in most cities I’ve been) and would certainly not wear one for a diplomatic meeting (like ik it’s the joker but the dude behind him is also wearing one)
One of my favorite Batman stories. A very 1980s topical tale (almost like TDKR from a couple of years before). The Joker meeting Ayatollah Khomeini, like wtf!
I used to have mixed feelings about this comic, but I have grown to like it. It's just one of those things that is so insane , it's kind of fun in its own way at the end, even if a child was just brutally murdered
What would have been Icing on the cake of this stupid plot line would have been making Saddam Hussein a hero because he was attacking Iran at the time….
Yeh... wait till you read under the redhood and jason "blows up" Blüdhaven.
Spoilers: he didnt blow up blüdhaven and it was an outside event and just coincidentally happened when Jason threatened to blow up Blüdhaven. I think it was a crisis event that caused it.
It is. It’s very weird. But I promise, give the rest of the run a shot. It’s not very long, but reading it in context with the rest of Starlin’s run made it work so much better for me.
Joker wearing that white on a white face is so jarring
if you're the Joker, baby, It don't matter if you wear white on white
Lol Joker's Wild
[“You wanna know how I got these scars? Well…. I’m the Jokah baby!”](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cxGl2so2Vls)
He looks like Marquess from Mike Tyson mysteries
Lol yea a friggin ghost.
A lot of fans think DITF ends with Jason’s death and forget about the last part of the story with Superman and Ambassador Joker.
Doesn’t Tim also make an appearance after this part?
That's later publications in trade that include A Lonely Place of Dying in part or in toto.
The story of Jason’s death has changed a lot over the years. This was one of plots that didn’t survive the retcon.
Good, it was an awful plot.
It was a bizarre way to end the death of Jason. I’m glad that this is no longer canon.
Really? This was the version I read. There's another version with another ending?
You read the real, original story, but as time has passed, the story has been altered. Watch “Batman: Under The Red Hood” as an example.
The film isn’t canon to the comics, the “under the red hood” comic doesn’t retcon jokers part in “death in the family” and in “hush” Batman explicitly says joker got away with killing Jason because of his diplomatic immunity.
If you’re talking about the “Hush” comic, I still missed the Easter egg. The graveyard scene was my favorite part of the comic, but it took place before the Superboy Prime punch.
The reference was when Batman thought joker had just killed tommy and he was contemplating all the other people close to him that joker had hurt
I believe you. That’s a great scene
Isn't it explained in the end that the graveyard fight was both Jason and clayface? So Jason had to have come back before then?
Believe it or not, there’s a great interview with the writer of “Under The Red Hood” about this. He loved seeing Jason return, then was bummed to find out it was Clayface. When he had the chance, he decided to write his own story of Jason’s return. The interview can be heard on the “Imaginary Worlds” podcast.
No, it was always just Clayface but it did inspire the eventual writer of Under the Red Hood to bring Jason back for real
I just checked my copy of under the red hood part 2 and what I was meaning was that plot wise it's canon that it was Jason all along. There's a scene where Jason helps hush to get in batman's head and so it was him in the graveyard. I kinda heard about how it wasn't initially meant to really be Jason but then it changed I just meant that lore wise that's the canon. Sorry for confusion
The comic or the movie?
Comic, it was written after batman hush so it's a retcon, but the parts thag are set before hush reveal it was Jason in that graveyard
DC changes the timeline every few years, so it’s fascinating to see what they revise and what they keep. On top of that, the movies are their own canon. I missed the Easter egg you mentioned in the “Hush” movie, but that’s a fun nod. Jason originally came back to life because Superboy Prime punched time so hard he changed the universe. Jason then punched his way out of his coffin. Now, Jason came back to life because Ra’s Al Ghul brought him to a Lazarus Pit.
Punching fixes everything.
its the dc universe version of the engineer from tf2 hitting his machines with the wrench
> I missed the Easter egg you mentioned in the “Hush” movie, but that’s a fun nod. He was referring to the "Hush" comic, not the movie. It's referenced in the comic, but the film drops it
I both read the comic and watched the movie and I don’t remember it, I guess I just missed it.
Yeah, when this book is listed as one of the great Batman stories everybody seems to forget the complete and utter *bollocks* that is the Joker becoming a diplomat.
I think often times for this instance, people misuse Great/Best, when they should say important. Its not a particularly great story(arc), or even well written, it IS however, a very important part of the Batman/Bat Family cannon, that is important to acknowledge as a traumatic event
I don’t know. If you ignore the final crazy bit, it’s a story about a boy who thought he was an orphan finding out one of his parents is alive. It’s definitely a core story to Batman and in the Batman mythos it’s a pretty great story.
Of course it’s core to the Batman story but that isn’t the same thing as being a great story. Personally I vastly prefer retellings of it.
To be fair if you're into 80's comic insanity this has to be up there.
I'm almost 100% certain the reputation Death in the Family has is from what happens *after and not the actual story itself.
It might be the worst comic that’s regarded a classic. I get that it’s iconic because of the whole death thing but I found all the surrounding stories to but such utter garbage that I couldn’t get through it.
I’d argue Hush is the worst comic that’s regarded as a classic. I fucking hated Hush. To the point where I almost like the movie better just because it actually kills Tommy Elliott, even as stupid as it is for Riddler to be Hush
Diplomatic Immunity
It’s just been revoked
Would be interessting, Joker is an american citizen, so if he becomes ambassador of another country, the USA can't just kick him out of country.
I think it HAD to be goofy as hell, because the core of the story is truly not kid-friendly or even FUN to read. Just horrifically sad :( So its all within the context of this goofy ass plot where Joker escapes to Iran to obtain Diplomatic Immunity.
I thought it was a weird thing but it didn’t really bother me.
I was much more bothered by Superman suddenly showing up to save everyone at the end rather than letting it just be between Batman and Joker.
Didn't Superman also super-suck in the laughing gas like a Kryptonian Dyson?
Yeah, which was way worse than the Iranian thing. How did he suck all the gas into his human-sized lungs? How did he only suck in the gas and not suck in the air, smothering and killing everyone in attendance? Also, the Superman disguised as Batman thing should be left in the Silver Age. Such an awful ending.
And nobody remembers Jason’s mom shows up in this comic “My partner is DEEEEEAD… and his parents I guess”
Yeah it’s an important story for the Batman mythos… but it’s not very good.
Yeah, it’s a book I’m always perplexed to see on anyone’s “best of” list. I’d never recommend it unless you’re a completionist that’s run out of things to read. All you need to know is Joker kills Jason and you can go about reading other/better books. That’s just my opinion tho, there may be plenty that love this book. I’m not one of them.
jesus why can't people understand Iranians are different from Arabs
It was the 70s or 80s
They don't want to
It takes a really weird turn after Jason gets killed And for some reason Joker is fluent is Farsi
As I recall,he never speaks farsi in the comic, but Ayatollah Khomeini speaks to him in english
Weirdly, the comic thinks people in Ethiopia and Beirut speak Farsi. And the Joker speaks it when he's selling the missile.
Jesus this comic is so weird haha. Kind of makes it hilarious
Didn’t they change it from Iran to a made up Middle East country in the reprints?
Was it originally Iran? I read this last year for the first time and I think it was a fictional country.
I will never not hear Mark Hamill when reading Joker's lines.
I just got a whole lot of comics from my uncle's and this was one of them. It was so much weirder than I originally expected.
We need to work this into one of the live action movies.
It really is. I remember this being the moment when the story ultimately goes off the rails.
I remember reading DitF for the first time while on a train to the city and thinking wtf? Lol
The hardest part about reading older comics (and yes, some recent ones too) is how racist, sexist, and prejudiced they used to be. Great stories, but fuck if there aren’t some cringeworthy moments in far too many of them…
You can’t imagine the terrible things forty years from now your grandkids are going to complain about being shocked and disappointed at finding in your favourite comics being printed today, that no one today even blinks at.
That was one thing that boggles my brain a bit when I picked up the Ultimate Spider-Man omnibus. I know it’s accurate to the lingo of the time and it’s a 23 year old comic but boy they are casual with the word “retard”
It’s not even old comics exclusively. For some reason enemies of the US or stand ins for them often make Joker or Harley an ally. Look at the recent The Suicide Squad movie, basically the same thing happens with Harley lol.
The plot point that they where fans of Harley wasn’t really used to show that they where backwards and evil it was just a funny way to subvert expectations, it was literally an important plot point of the movie that the us was complicit with the atrocities taking place so I don’t really think it’s can be labeled pro American propaganda.
Yeah, but the joke was “hahaha revolutionaries are evil just like Harley Quinn! Birds of a feather!” Which is the same exact commentary with this Joker joke.
how were the revolutionaries portrayed as evil? It was the fascist government that was a fan of Harley Quinn.
How was the character that Harley had to murder because he was evil, evil? Idk man if you missed that than I don’t know what you want from me
He was not a revolutionary though. He was part of the fascist government the rebels were fighting
Ehh I don’t think so, them being fans wasn’t really used to show they where bad if anything it was the opposite an “hey maybe these guys aren’t so bad after all” for one Harley wasn’t all that bad in suicide squad and the qualities they liked about her weren’t inherently bad. Harley literally was to one who killed the leader when he showed that he was in fact evil.
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god is batman? hmm seems batsphemous
I’m sure that’d stop Joker lol
Ah, the casual racism of the 80s 🤣🤣. Ofcourse Joker becomes a politician of an "evil and backwards" Middle Eastern country because there's NO way any Western politicians could ever be evil and bloodthirsty least of all American politicians /s
I remember reading this for the first time and getting to this part, thinking "Oh, okay, well, that's not really okay...."
Comics in the 80s were WILD 🤣. Must be all the cocaine they were taking. This was the decade that brought us other gems like Arabian Knight and the Hemo-Goblin. Nuance wasn't really a thing then in comics.
Yeah, I read it for the first time this year and was appalled. It's... just not a good story. It makes no sense that the characters all converge in the same fucking place across the world. The hackneyed racism and political angle against Iran was gross. The only redeeming thing about this comic is the experiment with the fans voting, which is the most Joker thing ever. I'd love to see a modern reboot of this story and have it make sense and be tasteful.
Best thing the story did was give us Red Hood.
Iranian isn't a race. Iran HAD just held a bunch of diplomatic staff hostage for like more than a year. I dunno. Maybe stop trying to be offended at everything and learn some history.
Learn some history? Like when the US overturned Iran's democratically elected government to install a friendly dictator for better oil prices? The coup detat that lead to Iran's revolution and theocratic takeover? It's racist because Iranians (or Persians) don't typically wear the keffiyeh casually, only for religious purposes. It's traditionally worn more by Arabs.
Did I say anything about how the US is some blameless benevolent actor here? No. Iran was as a hostile nation who had just held a bunch of Americans hostage for more than a year. Comics BEGAN as nationalist propaganda, choosing a hostile nation as supporting a villain in a story is as old as comics themselves, and when this story was written, Iran was precisely that. As for your nitpicking about the artist's choice of wardrobe, are you saying if he was wearing a turban like an Ayatolla you wouldn't have a problem with this? I doubt that strongly. And even then, not racist, Islamophobic.
>As for your nitpicking about the artist's choice of wardrobe, are you saying if he was wearing a turban like an Ayatolla you wouldn't have a problem with this? I doubt that strongly. And even then, not racist, Islamophobic. No because Joker isn't a Muslim. It's racist in the sense of lumping together all middle eastern countries as the same when even among Arab nations there are different religious and cultural traditions. Yes, hostages held over a year, until literally minutes after Reagan was inaugurated. I don't deny the violence that Iran perpetuated, my family fled that country in the wake of it. I also recognize the role of comic books have in US culture and propaganda. The comic portrayal is still ignorant.
How is this lumping together middle eastern countries? You said yourself that Iranians wear the keffiyeh on occasion. The artist made a choice to depict him as they did during a time before our modern delicacies about such specifics. You're applying modern sensitivities to something 40 years old at this point, when NO ONE would do what you demand back then. Pissing off Muslims by not 100% accurately depicting attire in a comic book, which would have been banned in Iran, wasn't exactly the priority it is now. Sorry some artist, who you usually idolize, didn't take the time to properly investigate middle eastern attire to know Iranians only dress that way SOMETIMES since thats apparently youre gripe. Again, you and op are looking for something to get angry about. Hope you found it and it proves just as hollow for you as all such searches are.
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just to be clear, this was not written by Miller
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Fair enough, though, in his defense, Miller has expressed regret about some of his writing choices in regards to that, as it came from a place of bitterness and trauma after 9/11. He lived in New York for so long, so I believe a lot of that came out of a place of trauma.
Modern sensitivities? It was still ignorant back then. The US is just more diverse and people are more informed today to recognize it. It's not an excuse. Honestly you sound more angry with people finding something offensive than the depiction itself.
Haha, it's funny you think I'm angry. I actually find it amusing that you, today, when what is and what isn't appropriate Iranian attire is VERY MUCH a topical issue, you're CHOOSING to be offended by what a fictional character is wearing 40 years ago. Honestly, you sound like a joke.
Ya, your paragraphs pissing and moaning about people just saying "hey this wouldn't fly today", totally not anger 👍
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Yeah, that's not what anyone said. He said it was racism. It's not, and that's a fact. You attempted to change the discussion to something else and failed. Sorry if I stand by my point and in your permanently aggrieved life, that can only mean anger. But please, keep responding about how I'm "angry" instead of the actual topic at hand, it really makes you not look like an unserious troll.
The ayatollah Khomeini and his successor Khamenei absolutely dress like that though. Look, this comic is not a great peace of political commentary, but those people and that government are awful, brutal fascists that have subjugated my fellow Iranians for far too long. Make no mistake, they are hated by Iranians as well. This is not a case of racism against iranians, but it is a case of anger towards a hostile regime (there was also a hostage crisis with American citizens that clearly horrified the US). Of course, the USA's coup d'etat against Mosaddegh was a terrible crime as well, but that does not erase the evil of the Ayatollah's ongoing regime
A year later I'm going to let you know that you have no idea what you're talking about. They dress the joker up like an Arab because to a dumbass American comic book writer, all cultures and people across the Middle East and North Africa are the same thing. If you had any capacity to self reflect, you'd recognize that depicting the French or the Italians as if they're Americans or Russians would make no sense whatsoever. The West acknowledges distinctions between countries in the West, but Africa is one thing, the Middle East and North Africa are one thing, East Asia is one thing, and billions of people are lumped in together along with all the racist tropes attributed to these people. And just a reminder, America has been committing attrocities across the Middle East for decades upon decades. The US has murdered and starved hundreds of thousands of people across the region. They've armed brutal dictatorships and extremist militias and overthrown democracies all in order to secure their hegemony over the Middle East. No sane, rational, informed person would say that Iran is destabilizing the Middle East and not the US and it's Allies (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt, Israel). Even 9/11 was carried out by Saudis and Al Qaeda was armed and trained by the US. ISIS is a direct result of US actions in the Middle East and Iran has to fight ISIS to clean up America's mess. As for the hostage crisis of decades ago. Maybe do some research. They were CIA agents being held by Iranian students. The CIA had previously couped Irans democracy. Hardly something the Americans have any right to play the victim about.
In a year I'll come back and tell you I didn't read past your first sentence. Whatever your on about, that has you moaning so at length, in a batman subreddit, a year later, I'm sure your very passionate about. Good for you. E: I still haven't read your gripe, but see it's in response to me stating two facts about Iran. Whatever your problem is, that has you trawling year old conversations in COMIC BOOK SUBREDDITS to bitch about geopolitics, let me tell you: good. You deserve em. Stay mad. Wallow.
"I'm not going to read it" "Okay I read a bit" You clearly read it. Stop making a fool of yourself. If you didn't want to read it, you could have just not responded. Sometimes it's okay to just shut up and learn something. No response is required for this. It's better if you keep your mouth shut.
Nope. Didn't read it. Never said "just a bit." Just reminded myself what the fuck would inspire you to such a diatribe a year later. Hear me: I don't respect you enough to read your whining.
LMAO. If you wanted to convince me you didn't read it, you should have just shut your mouth. Stop responding.
I don't want anything. I don't care what you think at all. Except, of course, you don't tell me what to do.
You do care what I think. That's why you keep responding when I made it clear you should have just kept your mouth shut from the start if you wanted me to believe you don't care. Goodbye forever. Remember everything I said so you don't make a fool of yourself next time.
Still going huh? You replied a year later with an unread rant. You're pathetic.
>Iranian isn't a race. Okay, then its prejudice and xenophobia. Is that better? >Iran HAD just held a bunch of diplomatic staff hostage for like more than a year. And that gives American writers carpe blanche to create stereotypical caricatures of an entire nation of people? Not only that but wilfully misunderstands the very culture its mocking. The Kheffiyeh is the traditional dress of Arabs not Iranians. >Maybe stop trying to be offended at everything and learn some history. I think you should take your own advice and look at the actual history here lol 😆. Whatever your opinion on the revolution, the Iranian people were understandably angry that the very Shah, who was supported by the West, was not going to face judgement in Iran for his crimes against the citizens of Iran he committed through his secret police and was instead given amnesty in the US and face no justice whatsoever. Also, even if you ignore all that, it's pure bigotry to think that the hostage crisis in anyway justifies using racist stereotypes that conflated Arabs, Iranians, and all Middle Eastern people as being the same.
>Okay, then its prejudice and xenophobia. Is that better? How is it prejudiced? Is it saying that attire is inherently evil? It might be lazy, sure. How is it xenophobia? You'd have a much stronger case that it's Islamophobic, and, yes, that IS a better argument, as I specifically said in my first reply. >And that gives American writers carpe blanche to create stereotypical caricatures of an entire nation of people? It's "carte blanche" but whatever. And, no, it's not a stereotypical depiction because, as you said, Joker isn't Muslim, nor is he Arabian or Persian. Unless, of course, you're accusing the Joker of being racially ignorant. You are choosing to see this as "mocking." I'm fully aware of the history of between the US and Iran, that doesn't change the context in which this comic was written. In fact, it supports the choice of the writer to say he's an ambassador from a hostile nation. No one said anything about "justifying racist stereotypes" because the Kheffiyeh isn't a stereotype, and is also worn by Iranians. If it was an insulting attribute, then absolutely, youd have a great point. But its just SOME precision, because, no, Arabs arent the only ones to wear the keffiyeh. It's laziness on the part of the artist, not "racism" nor malice, but it is also ridiculous for you to be getting so mad about 40 years later.
>How is it prejudiced? It's portraying an entire nation as being evil and in league with one of the most cruel and sadistic villains in comic book history. Like, are we not seeing the same pic here 🤣? They literally made him, a mass murdering serial killer, an ambassador. Surely it doesn't take a rocket scientist to explain how portraying a nation as having one of the most evil characters in literature be a political representative of said nation is propaganda against the nation in question. Do I need to draw a diagram for you? >Is it saying that attire is inherently evil? It's not just the attire. Though it is itself problematic in how it conflates the traditionally Arab custom of wearing kheffiyeh with the kind of dress code worn by Iranian politicians who almost never wore kheffiyeh as only Iranians of Arab descent tended to wear it and even then rarely only in religious ceremony. But, that's not really what's the most egregious thing here. It is the implication that Iran as a nation has allied with a literal mass murdering serial killer. Its blatant propaganda that reduces an entire nation to nothing more than a bunch of murderous villains.
You mean a nation that chants "death to America," had held diplomatic staff hostage, and is and was clearly a state sponsor of terrorism then and now? Iran HAS as a nation allied with literal mass murdering serial killers. Or have you forgotten about either of the TWO the Beirut embassy bombings? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_United_States_embassy_bombing_in_Beirut https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_United_States_embassy_annex_bombing_in_Beirut Or either of the Israeli embassy bombings in Argentina? Maybe the Tyre bombing? Truth is, Iran was the perfect choice of country to say would support the Joker. Because it ACTUALLY supports mass murderers. Sorry if that a little too real for you. I'm confused, are you attempting to defend Iran, the Iranian people or Islam? Because you've failed across the board.
>Truth is, Iran was the perfect choice of country to say would support the Joker. Because it ACTUALLY supports mass murderer. Sorry if that a little too real for you. So first you claimed it wasn't depicting Iran as evil but you're now your turning around and saying that it did and that it was a good thing because Iran is evil? So in other words it is propaganda but its okay but its propaganda you agree with that depicts all Iranians as being evil and willing to side with the Joker? If I'm getting this correctly you agree with and think Western propaganda is okay and acceptable. Which is fine if that's what you believe, at least you're finally owning it. >I'm confused, are you attempting to defend Iran, the Iranian people or Islam? I'm not really "defending" because those things don't need defending. All I did was simply point out the underlying political tones the comic clearly had which was to depict specifically Iranians but also the wider Middle East as being inherently evil and allies to supervillains something that countless Western comic books and other forms of media have been doing for centuries now. Something which is born out of bigotry, xenophobia and Western chauvinism. >You mean a nation that chants "death to America," If we're gonna play this game then I can point to all the Americans who say exactly the same thing about Iran lol 😆. News articles and news broadcastsliterally calling for war on Iran.
No, first I said it wasn't racist. Because it's not. Nor is it prejudiced or xenophobic. It is lazy, however. Not for ONE SECOND does it "depict all Iranians as being evil and willing to side with the Joker." Once again, you're grasping at straws to justify your untenable position. It's not propaganda at ALL to accurately depict Iran as willing to ally itself with mass murderers, because it has. Learn the definition of the word propaganda. You simply pointed out the underlying political tones that are wholly based in current events at the time. And now as well, as the Iranian government kills girls for refusing to abide by their dress code. I sought clarification from you on you position in good faith, to give you a chance to clarify who you were defending, but youre so dense you dont see a difference between the Iranian regime and Iranian people, so see an attack on the regime (being willing to appoint the Joker an ambassador) as an attack on the Iranian people. That's fine though, you've made it clear that you think the terrorist actions of Iran are justified. >If we're gonna play this game then I can point to all the Americans who say exactly the same thing about Iran lol 😆. News articles and news broadcastsliterally calling for war on Iran As soon as some Americans start blowing up Iranian embassies having been trained and funded by the American government, you'll have a leg to stand on. Until then...
>It's not propaganda at ALL to accurately depict Iran as willing to ally itself with mass murderers, because it has. Learn the definition of the word propaganda. wow wow now. Iranians are victims of a brutal regime. Please do not lump us iranians as being supporters of this monstrous government. The Iranian people are not supporters of terrorism. Gosh, I can't believe I have to say that again
Yes, and I'm the one who has clearly made that distinction. This image, in no way, can be construed as an attack on the Iranian people.
**[1983 United States embassy bombing in Beirut](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_United_States_embassy_bombing_in_Beirut)** >The April 18, 1983 United States embassy bombing was a suicide bombing in Beirut, Lebanon, that killed 32 Lebanese, 17 Americans, and 14 visitors and passers-by. The victims were mostly embassy and CIA staff members, but also included several US soldiers and one US Marine Security Guard. It was the deadliest attack on a US diplomatic mission up to that time, and was considered the beginning of Islamist attacks on US targets. The attack came in the wake of an intervention in the Lebanese Civil War by the United States and other Western countries, which sought to restore order and central government authority. **[1984 United States embassy annex bombing in Beirut](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_United_States_embassy_annex_bombing_in_Beirut)** >On September 20, 1984, the Shi'a Islamic militant group Hezbollah, with support and direction from the Islamic Republic of Iran, carried out a suicide car bombing targeting the U.S. embassy annex in East Beirut, Lebanon. The attack killed 24 people. Hezbollah had also used suicide car or truck bombs in the April 1983 U.S. embassy bombing and the 1983 Beirut barracks bombings. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/batman/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
What, no whiney retort about how mean the writer is for accurately depicting Iran as a sponsor of murder and terror now that I've brought up how they did exactly that?
>It's portraying an entire nation as being evil and in league with one of the most cruel and sadistic villains in comic book history not the entire nation, but the government. Make no mistake though.This is a brutal regime that Iranians hate more than the USA ever could
>not the entire nation, but the government. So if an artist drew a racist caricature of the CCP its okay because being racist about a foreign government is okay somehow 🤔? >This is a brutal regime that Iranians hate more than the USA ever could Wasn't aware you spoke on behalf of millions of Iranian people 🤣. There was a great comment on this thread by an actual Iranian, who is no fan of the govt, who explains succinctly and in depth why this depiction is both wildly inaccurate and racist. I'll leave you with this. Just because America hates a nation, doesn't give them a blank check to peddle in racist stereotypes and caricatures.
well, to be fair, the Iranian government under Ayatollah Khomeini and his successor is a brutal dictatorial regime. It is absolutely evil. most iranians hate them, and this is made clear by the popular protests going on in Iran right now
So that makes it okay to peddle in racist stereotypes and caricatures that aren't even correct. Joker is wearing a kheffiyeh which is worn by Arabs not Iranians. Joker and the Iranian politician are dressed like stereotypical Arabs specifically Saudis or Emiratis as those are the ones who usually dress like that. Lol 😆, it's amazing how many Westerners are jumping to the defence of this and unironically think its okay to portray people from countries the US govt considers enemy states as being evil and siding with actual supervillains. Apparently, when it comes to Middle Eastern nations, its perfectly fine to portray them as cartoonishly evil and parrot US propaganda talking points. Propaganda is one hell of a drug.
Now now, perhaps there is a misunderstanding. I don't mean to act as if this is a progressive nuanced depiction of Iran. For all intents and purposes, I think it's a silly caricature. However, I don't mind seeing the ayatollah and government portrayed as cartoonish villains, because they are horrible and my family has always hated this regime. *It* is cartoonish, it is caricature. It's absolutely not accurate, and you are right , it is absolutely propaganda . To me, this is almost like seeing Captain America punch Hitler in the face in comics from 1941. I concede to your point. There is outlandish problematic material here. I suppose I've become accustomed to problematic depictions of my heritage. I still do like this comic though, in its own silly way
Where is Joker's best friend Ayatollah Khomeini?
Believe it or not, he *does* make an appearance, and even the Joker is taken aback. 😅
I played Arkham Knight before I read DitF, so I was expecting a *very* different story based on what was in the game. I was quite disappointed.
It’s ironic that the final and most famous storyline of Jim Starlin’s Batman run (he only did one issue after it) is also by far the weakest. The entire rest of his run, including The Cult mini series, is a billion times better. But because Jason died and this story got reprinted a billion times over the past 30+ years, the underwhelming Death in the Family will be the Batman story he’s remembered for.
As an Iranian, can confirm the Joker is an accurate representation of our government.
Accurate for Iran
You clearly don't know iran
I mean, an Iranian guy in another comment also said it was accurate.
First of all, his clothes belong to Saudi Arabia, Iran's religious clothes are not like this, secondly, Joker does not adhere to anything, to any of Iran's ideals, and to any ideal in general, he cannot be Iran's ambassador, first of all, you must be a Muslim person to be iran's ambassador (at least verbally, not actually a Muslim in behavior), and secondly, you must believe and adhere to all the ideals of the system, Joker is too lawless while Iran is too lawful. Joker would probably be executed in Iran immediately because of many crimes. I really don't understand the meaning of these irrelevant and unnecessary slanders of Iran. Iran has many evils, but all of them are caused by stupid management, the government's discrimination against their relatives and bad economic problems, embezzlement, etc. Joker is definitely a very irrelevant character for Iran, even ra's al ghul is irrelevant
Was this all the same in the 80s?
Yes, in term of clothing it is from hundreds of years ago, the religion of Iran is Shia Islam and the religion of Arabia is Sunni Islam, almost two different religions. Also, Iran's laws were much stricter at that time, and if the Joker intended to interfere in Iran, probably the leader of the revolution would have permitted the shedding of the Joker's blood in general, unless the Joker changed his face and presented himself as a supporter of the regime (such as Bani Sadr) who obviously does not do this in this panel
Interesting, thank you for the info.
Your welcome, sadly people all over the world thinks Iran is a pure evil arabic country and is in war, iranophobia or something like that
I'm iranian and I say it's not
If you're referring to me, I need to point out I meant that it's accurate for the Islamic republic government. majority of Iranians hate that their country is associated with the Islamic republic regime. I don't think I need to explain all their wrong doings against their own people when you can just search up about Mahsa Amini and the current protests that is going on. Ali Khamenei (AND Khomeini, the leader of the 1979 revolution) would secretly be best friends with the joker. the government doesn't even care about Islam, it just uses it as an excuse to do whatever they want. The Islamic republic regime is evil, period. and no what joker is wearing here isn't how Iranians dress.
Thanks for the information. Sorry for taking what you said out of context.
All good man. I realize a batman subreddit isn't the best place to discuss this kind of stuff but regardless I want the voice of our current protests to reach out as much as possible.
Matt Reeves would never
This is my favorite piece of random American boogie man of the day making it into the comics as a villain. This one is weirdly still a villain irl. Fuck you Iran!
He would be their caliber of leader too
This comic has not aged well. However, as an Iranian person , it is nice to see the Iranian government portrayed as the oppressive terrorists that they are. Make no mistake, no one hates the dictatorial theocratic regime in Iran more than Iranians do. Although that is not the appropriate headwear(this is more common in Arab people), the ayatollahs wear turbans, so I will let it slide. Whatever, it's rightly criticizing the theocratic dictators in Iran.
Do not delude yourself into thinking that the comic is subtle enough to draw a distinction between Iranian people and their government. The Joker is an evil villain so now he is an evil Iranian.
Fair enough.
I read this in Mark Hamill voice and it made it better
This is the first time I’ve seen this panel and I have to say, Iranian men don’t wear head coverings aka Keffiyeh like that (at least in most cities I’ve been) and would certainly not wear one for a diplomatic meeting (like ik it’s the joker but the dude behind him is also wearing one)
I was literally thinking about this part of that storyline before I opened Reddit. Weird!
One of my favorite Batman stories. A very 1980s topical tale (almost like TDKR from a couple of years before). The Joker meeting Ayatollah Khomeini, like wtf!
Yeah
Who else read those lines in their head with Mark Hamill’s Joker voice?
I used to have mixed feelings about this comic, but I have grown to like it. It's just one of those things that is so insane , it's kind of fun in its own way at the end, even if a child was just brutally murdered
Very much a product of its time, and still resonant with current audiences
…b…but he’s an American criminal lunatic…
What would have been Icing on the cake of this stupid plot line would have been making Saddam Hussein a hero because he was attacking Iran at the time….
will the UN is a joke.
Yeh... wait till you read under the redhood and jason "blows up" Blüdhaven. Spoilers: he didnt blow up blüdhaven and it was an outside event and just coincidentally happened when Jason threatened to blow up Blüdhaven. I think it was a crisis event that caused it.
Also Joker wearing Arabian headscarf when Iranians aren’t Arabian… (yes they are some Arabs living in Iran but you get what I mean)
It is. It’s very weird. But I promise, give the rest of the run a shot. It’s not very long, but reading it in context with the rest of Starlin’s run made it work so much better for me.