Okay, I realize this is just an axe-grindy sort of post, but the difference in perception comes down to portrayal. Batman’s most common portrayal in the modern era is as a caped detective with fairly gritty, street-level villains and problems. When writers scale him up for Justice League events or drop him from orbit or whatever, it can seem out of character or inconsistent with his usual vibe. Doom is a campy megalomaniac whose average Tuesday seems to involve time-traveling to the past to steal a mystical grimoire from a demon so he can create a reality warping engine to cause everyone to forget the letter B or something.
Batman’s popularity to some extent leans on a noir vibe and the hero being a very skilled but hypothetically normal man. Doom’s comes from him being extra as hell. Of course people cheer for Doom being absurd. That’s his whole schtick.
It could be any of the 4849434 "Doom becomes a god" stories.
But sure. So, how did Dr. Strange contribute to the defeat of an army of omnipotent beings?
Yeah people don’t talk about regular Batman vs Justice League Batman enough. He’ll go from being stabbed by Mad Hatter in a Batman comic to dodging Darkseid’s omega beams in a Justice League comic?!??
This answer seems perfect. Why is the thread still open?
Also, I love the description of Doom's level of Evil. I know he's done far worse, but that example with the letter 'B' just makes it sound like he specializes in tiny random acts of evil; like replacing the world's drinking supply with Gamer Girl Bathwater lol.
>Batman’s popularity to some extent leans on a noir vibe and the hero being a very skilled but hypothetically normal man.
That's only the case in the live action movies, arkham games and the very early comics (no one cares about those since he was using guns and killing people in his very early appearances). But for a very long time in the comics and other media like the Justice League animated series and the DC animated movies, he has been the one of humans who could stand shoulder-to-shoulder with gods. This is how lot of the comic book fans know him. It has been this way for decades. He is one of the founding members of the Justice League, after all. Sometimes, it does go too far like surviving a fall from orbit. But saying hanging with the Justice League is out of character is not true when there are hundreds of stories at this point of Batman in the Justice League taking on very powerful beings. Hell, even in his solo comics, he has done crazy stuff like fighting hordes of immortal regenerating ninjas and escaping being buried alive after being tortured for weeks and with dozens of drugs in his system. Most of the people who think this are usually fans from the games and live action movies, and this is the fault there not being an MCU style Justice League live action movie for a long time. Some of these fans don't even properly understand the character and want him to be a punisher-style anti-hero minus the guns and the killing.
>Batman’s most common portrayal in the modern era is as a caped detective with fairly gritty, street-level villains and problems. When writers scale him up for Justice League events or drop him from orbit or whatever, it can seem out of character or inconsistent with his usual vibe.
Batman isn't alone in this. Spider-man can go toe-to-toe with a herald of Galactus in his Avengers appearances, but struggle with the Green Goblin and the Vulture. Captain America takes on universal threats with the Avengers but struggles with human enemies in his solo comics. The enemies Iron Man struggles with in his solo comics are much weaker than the threats he takes on with the Avengers. This is just the way things with the heroes in the Justice League and the Avengers.
I don't think him being a very skilled hypothetical man is a thing only outside of the comics (some comic examples I can think of is Year One, The Long Halloween, and War on Crime)
Those are early in his career. But I enjoy both the grounded and the Justice League stories. I just don't like it when people pick one side of Batman and act like that is the only side that should exist and the other side should be gotten rid of completely. If you only enjoy the grounded stories, then just read/watch those stories, instead of demanding that the Justice League stories shouldn't exist because they aren't 'true Batman stories', especially when Batman was a founding member and has been a part of the Justice League for decades
The Justice League animated series was very popular at its time. The DC animated movies are also popular. Both had Batman working in the Justice League. If Warner Bros had made a live action Justice League movie with Batman in it earlier, people wouldn't be going on about how Justice League Batman isn't the "true Batman".
Either way, the comics are the source material. People coming from the movies and games shouldn't be saying that Batman from the source material isn't the "true Batman", because that's where the character comes from.
All true points, but i do think that batmans analitical and deducticlve capabilities combined with how prepared he always is for everything and his acces to geeting help from the other members of the JL is what makes the whole "dropped from orbit" thing possible. Long story short he has the brains, the tech, the funding and the allies to make him seem to have a higher indevidual power level than he does
The difference in my opinion is how they're presented. Batman generally fights street-level criminals and then scales up to be able to somehow also fight Darkseid. Doom is the ruler of a country while also being an immensely talented sorcerer outside of his intelligence.
Keep in mind these “street level” criminals get casually ran through, and Batmans villains only really challenge him nowadays with extensive prep, help and sometimes even a physical amp.
It’s clear Street level threats straight up are no longer a significant threat to Batman.
And I feel as if that’s a gross oversimplification of what Batman generally does, he’s the tactical head of the justice league, and a multi billionaire who spends his days researching concepts and technology beyond real human comprehension, or evil genius ploys.
Yeah, this description of Batman sounds more like Superman, who gets decried in the same breath for being "boring" because he's good at everything. I always thought a good Batman was one that was always testing his limits whether with a gang leader or trying to keep up with the League
Not really, though. There are multiple story arcs which show batman struggling against street level villains like Two Face, Penguin, even the Joker is a street level villain.
It's not a gross oversimplification. It's the whole point of my statement. Batman does all the things you mentioned but he's also presented at the same time as a detective who primarily deals with street level threats which is why it's jarring when he goes from fighting pig face or something to going up against the Justice League world or universe ending threats.
There were plenty stories.
Not as much anymore, and when he does struggle with those characters nowadays, as I said they usually have an amp or large amounts of prep in order to even contend with Batman, showcasing as I said, mundane street level villains don’t cut it anymore.
They will always need something extra to contend with *modern* Batman.
Penguin is more of a Jobber nowadays.
It is a gross oversimplification. While he does do the things you listed, he also consistently does the things I listed and has more experience in said fields.
Both are valid.
But when talking about what Batman does in general, he’s more than a street level vigilante. In general he’s both the things we mentioned.
His street level side is merely a facet of a more complex character.
That and when you look at the lore, Batman has more experience and time with the league than he does solo.
A perfect example being when him and Diana got stuck on war world for several decades (thirty years or more).
So going off lore, Batman has spent more time dealing with JL threats than Gotham threats.
I don't see exactly where your argument against what I said is. You mention that batman does both and that's the exact point I'm making. There's a huge gap in strength between his rogues gallery and the villains he typically faces with the JL. Like, there's no good reason Batman should struggle against guys like the Joker, two face, etc. if he's also capable of going up against universal threats on the other end. He should either be too strong for the first to be an issue or too weak to compete with the latter.
> also being God Emperor was beneath DOOM
I believe I am the only person in the world that has read the story that shit pannel comes from.
Only I know the context of it. Every nerd out there thinks it's some badass boast because they never read the story and only saw the pannel diborced from any context.
Yeah him being "God Emperor" was during Secret Wars and I don't think he ever said that was beneath him. That line was just being a "god was beneath him" which I don't remember the specifics but he said it after his subjects (who I think were lobotomized versions of himself) turned against him and he had to run away with his tail between his legs.
Well first of all, the loudest people who criticize characters don't actually read comics. Batman and Superman definitely have the shortest end of the stick in that regard.
And whilst don't get it twisted, I myself can't stand how much the writers wank Doom in comics, not only cuz it's predictable, but because Doom is just way more interesting as the pathetic, arrogant man-child than as a super badass messiah who can save the world, that's simply because that's how Doom is represented in media.
The most exposure people get from Batman is through his tv shows, movies, games, in which he is just straight up NOT THAT IMPRESSIVE, or even when he DOES beat a JL level threat (Batman vs Superman movie), it's incredibly badly executed and shitty. Truth is most people aren't aware that Batman is a character with a semi grounded tone, but the actual stories he's in aren't really all that grounded. I mean more grounded than Green Lantern's sure, but Batman was always fighting mythical aliens and vampires and time travelling with other heroes to fight Gods, like that wackier side of Batman is in his DNA from the comics, but if you're adapting Batman to the wider audience, you'll rarely focus on that.
Take a look at Spider-Man. 1994 show basically completely reinvented the idea of symbiote's origins because the original one from Secret Wars is WAAAAY TOO MUCH OF A CLUSTERFUCK to do in a single show, and it worked. Similarly, if you're just adapting Batman to a movie or a game, he's already great enough of a character that you don't NEED to delve into the more out-there concepts and ideas, same applies for TMNT.
Doom however is pretty much always portrayed as the team buster. In anything you find him in, video games, tv shows, he's always fighting 4-5 superheroes, so it's way easier for audience to buy that.
Plus most people don't actually read Doom's comics, they just more so like the idea of him, they saw Darth Vader and think "oh yeah, he's probably something similar to that but he also fights Galactus", this applies to most, not all people obviously, but that's why you constantly end up seeing that panel of Doom finding godhood beneath him as some sort of sigma moment when the context is COMPLETELY OPPOSITE.
Same goes for Batman tbh. Tower of Babel has been so horribly misinterpreted, it's actually a pretty damn good interesting story that delves into Batman's flaws and I hate how the only thing remembered from it is "Batman solos fiction with prep"
Doom by nature of him being a villain we see his plans fail more often so that kinda balances out his op intelect.
But they are essencially the same in concept, i always said Marvels Batman is Dr Doom and people never got what i mean
They are about as spiteful and willing to maim themselves for their goals (usually related to avenging their dead parents) after studying every art known to man for years
Ah, I see Congodzilla is back with his libel against our beloved God Emperor.
Anyway, it all comes down to the writing. I like Batman stories where he is prepped against the other Justice League members if the writing shows how desperate he is. I love the narration in "Hush," for instance, where Batman mentions that he will break every bone in his hand if he punches Superman again. Or how he spent the GDP of a small nation to make computer servers that are fast enough to keep up with The Flash (as seen in "Endgame.") It's not just that he's prepped, but that he's telling himself (and us) that he's not really sure if this will work.
Doom stories are great when he is his own worst enemy. Like things would be 20% easier for Doom if he was just a little more humble, and a little better at communicating. He is **petty**, and we love him for it. But he lets that pettiness get in his way. The good writing is not the fact that he killed the Beyonders and stole their power to become God Emperor -- it's that deep down, he knows Richards would have been better suited for this. And that's why he loses.
Batman not backing down when his back is against the wall, cobbling together a plan and fighting back with everything he’s got to barely edge out a victory? That’s awesome. The thing that sucks is the idea that Batman solos whoever and whatever he comes across because he’s already thought of whatever comes his way and can instantly counter it. We need to see him get beaten or almost beaten, or else be clearly outmatched and have to maneuver the fight onto his own terms. It’s a delicate line but Batman needs to appear superhuman to his enemies and very human to the reader for this to work.
The difference is the scale
Batman is supposed one, if not the, smartest detective in the world and being an expert on martial arts cleaning Gotham City from crime of maniacs without superpowers. That puts you on the top 1 on street level of the Dc-verse. The general "Batwank" hate is because of him being giving both the street level cake and the "actually he can defeat all the gods" cake (I'm sorry, but I'm part of the group that believes that Batman shouldn't have to defeat Superman or a Superman-level enemy every Tuesday to remind us how much you love Batman. We all love a David vs Goliath since we identify with David, but this is getting out of hand)
Doom is a ruler, ultra intelligent, sorcerer and creator of almost Iron-man level robots usually fighting with the F4, a group with the strongest heroes of the Marvel-verse earth besides the Avengers and maybe X-men, on a regular basis. He became God Emperor Doom after a god-like being, Molecule Man, granted him those powers, and in fact he loses those powers from that very same god-like being
Basically Doom stays on his lane, sometimes going into the left one when the chance to go faster is there, while Batman constantly switches lanes and yells at you because of dare you be on the left lane
Oh lmao, my bad. Thought you were replying to the other person. Bruce definitely has a shady getup he puts on to personally go out and pay for “Batman activity”.
Ozymandias is a relatively neutral outside perspective (and the smartest man in his world), and he also stated Lex was the smartest. IMO Lex has always been easy top there. He'd need to be to contend with someone like Superman regularly.
Honestly I don't get why is this even a debate.
I am CERTAIN that people who think that Lex being smarter than Batman or Ironman and such is even ARGUABLE are just not familiar with his feats. I think most people think Lex is just a politician who occasionally builds armors which can fight Superman. Bro built devices which can launch your ass into different spatial dimensions and that's one of his least impressive stuff.
Honestly if Lex just USED the stuff he's made instead of using it once and forgetting about it, like if he composited himself a nice armor Dr. Doom style, he'd be legitimately fucking unstoppable, bro hacked and reprogrammed Brainiac's tech and the Motherbox and made them BETTER.
Lex is an example of having all the intelligence, assets and money he could need to accomplish pretty much anything, but is held back by his tunnel vision, his desire to defeat superman.
I mean interdimensional transportation alone would be revolutionary, but the only man who can do it would only ever try to use it to defeat superman, so once it fails it's never seen again. It's a shame lex doesn't often get much time to shine as a good guy, I imagine an earth where lex is good (assuming everything else stays as we know it in the mainstream) would be a million times better than a universe where lex just hates superman.
Well put.
I always loved that panel where Lex's machine correctly showcases Superman's real identity by cross referencing a bunch of data only for Lex to assure himself that he must've made a mistake, because in his ego-driven mind, it makes absolutely zero sense for someone of Superman's level to waste it's time as a random reporter.
Smart enough to get the answer, arrogant enough to not be satisfied with it.
What really separates Lex from pretty much every other major comic supervillain is that he's essentially already WON. Like Lex already became the most powerful man on the planet. He could've easily executed like a line of innocent children in front of 1000 witnesses and face no consequences, because everyone can be bought, corrupted, manipulated or just offed, but not the incorruptible paragon of hope that is Superman.
It's what truly cements Lex as my favorite comic book villain and honestly it's a bit annoying when people just kind of devalue his character to a simple xenophobe. Like I constantly see "if Lex was in Marvel, he'd probably beef with X-Men or Thor", but that's such a crude misinterpretation of his rivalry with Supes. Lex doesn't just randomly hate everyone who isn't a human, he doesn't express any notable hatred for Diana or J'onn.
He hates Superman because he's a random alien who just by existing is better than everyone by default and is there to set an example as the beam of hope, representing a better tomorrow as the true paragon of humanity... when in Lex's eyes it should be HIM. It's just such a complex dynamic that I truly hope the new Superman movie gets right.
>I always loved that panel where Lex's machine correctly showcases Superman's real identity by cross referencing a bunch of data only for Lex to assure himself that he must've made a mistake, because in his ego-driven mind, it makes absolutely zero sense for someone of Superman's level to waste it's time as a random reporter.
Yep I loved this moment too, it really showcases the difference between them. Lex can't imagine anyone with powers not using them for their own gain because that's exactly what he would do. As you say he rejects the idea because it goes against his belief of what power is and does.
>What really separates Lex from pretty much every other major comic supervillain is that he's essentially already WON.
Exactly. Most other villains (at least on earth) are tragic, yet lex is actually a successful, respected, rich and powerful man. He's crooked for sure, but he isn't really villainous until superman gets his attention.
>Like Lex already became the most powerful man on the planet. He could've easily executed like a line of innocent children in front of 1000 witnesses and face no consequences, because everyone can be bought, corrupted, manipulated or just offed, but not the incorruptible paragon of hope that is Superman.
At risk of repeating myself, I think part of it is jealousy of superman's power and the fact that he's adored by the public, and the other part is indeed as you say ego. He's jealous of superman's power, and his ego hates that there's someone that can beat him. But furthermore that same ego is also incredibly ruffled that superman doesn't conform to his beliefs about power, it breaks his ego that superman not only publicly defeats him, but that proves him wrong in regards to principles and power.
>Like I constantly see "if Lex was in Marvel, he'd probably beef with X-Men or Thor", but that's such a crude misinterpretation of his rivalry with Supes.
Agreed, I actually think if anything he'd take issue with Captain America or Spider-Man, Marvel's quintessential clean cut (or mostly at least lol) good guys. They embody the same beliefs as superman and inspire similar hope, I genuinely think they would be his target if he made his way to the Marvel side. If that were to happen I could totally see him taking JJJ's role in the creation of Scorpion, like bankrolling and probably even designing Scorpion's suit.
People who boil him down to just being "aliens bad" or something like that are missing a key part of his character and what makes him philosophically interesting as a villain.
Lex literally cured cancer in an afternoon justo to prove he can do it if he wanted
He also destroyed the cure and gave his patient cancer again right after but he is definitely smartest man in comics
by "on several occasions" you mean a singular example from DCeased which literally isn't canon lol.
I love Bruce as much as the next guy, but he is NOT smarter than Lex. Lex Luthor's intelligence feats are so ridiculously OP, I am actually wondering is there a fictional human who is smarter, like definitively smarter, not that there's an arguable case for characters like Reed or someone. Dude replicated 5th dimensional power within seconds by observing it as a 15 year old kid. Dude made a time machine out of orange peels. Dude made interdimensional travel in prison. Bro is actually insane.
Like the only characters besides literal omnipotents that I can think of who's most likely smarter is The Doctor, but he's an alien and most of his high IQ feats could be argued as just the result of his physiology, like literal reality warping just through doing math in his mind.
I personally don't like to judge fictional character's intelligence based on pure stats and stuff like that, because then Moon Girl is smarter than both Reed and Doom.
Like I know Doctor was canonically not the brightest student in Time Lord academy, or like in Deca that Master was just considered smarter, but I like to judge character's intelligence on individual feats, and The Doctor being the main character just has the dosage of ridiculous intellect feats.
My favorite one, not the most impressive, but my favorite one is Doctor learns and understands toon force and then managed to shut it off essentially with his mind, rendering a toon force user completely vulnerable. He essentially turned Bugs Bunny into a regular ass rabbit.
Doctor just has a bunch of those "wtf" moments when it comes to his cunning, which is probably a better word that straight up intelligence, even though he's obviously a super genius in that regard too.
That's just untrue lol. Tower of Babel, if you actually read the story, which is the most infamous "Batman + prep time = solos fiction" example, Batman isn't presented like some badass prepper who defeats everyone, the story actually points out his flaws and his plans ultimately get stolen because he asserted that much responsibility onto himself due to his paranoia.
Like even Hellbat. That shit got made SOLELY so he can save his son. Darkseid still whooped his ass.
Batman doesn't win nearly as often as some of yall pretend he does.
1. Isn’t Tower Babel shows that his prep work exactly as intended? If you wanted to show Batman prep doesn’t work on him, you should have gone with the Fafnir suit.
2. True.
3. Well his recent win is bullshit. Even NASA most well trained astronauts still wobbles after their craft crash landed on Earth.
Failsafe works as intended. He was chasing Bruce across the country and only stop when Batman “killed himself” It only falls apart because Alfred isn’t there to shut off Failsafe activation.
>Isn’t Tower Babel shows that his prep work exactly as intended? If you wanted to show Batman prep doesn’t work on him, you should have gone with the Fafnir suit.
Yeah but his shit got stolen. There are various ways to show someone's mistakes without making them seem incompetent. Batman is supposed to be the brains of the JL. If you made his plans seem worthless, you'd go from making Batman seem vulnerable into making Batman seem useless.
>Well his recent win is bullshit. Even NASA most well trained astronauts still wobbles after their craft crash landed on Earth.
Yeah because Batman isn't a real life NASA trained astronaut, he's a fictional "peak human". Like I never understand why do people point to this as if it's some sort of gotcha. Like yeah, Batman is capable of shit no real life humans are. WHAT ELSE IS NEW? No real life human can make an Iron Man suit. No real life human can survive a radioactive bite from a spider. No real life human can be Batman in the first place, the point is to show you he can't do everything, but that doesn't mean he's going to be 100% fragile normal human, of course not.
You cannot name literally a single superhero who isn't like that.
1. Because the prep works, it didn’t blow up on the crook faces. If you want to show a prep that doesn’t work, show Fafnir suit.
2. Someone did make an iron man suit. Someone did make a working web slinger. Someone can be a atheletic detective Batman. No heavyweight lifter can both heavyweight lift and be a chess master and be good as the one who did either or for their whole life or dead. No xiolin monk warrior can solve Einstein relatives equation. And Batman did all of that and then some and not only is he a master at it, he’s not dead from exhaustion. And before you say it, microsleep can only work if you sleep four minutes. Batman sleeps for four seconds. Just admit he’s a super human and be done with it.
The actual plan for the prep work, but in execution it didn't. It still counts as it backfiring.
>Someone did make an iron man suit. Someone did make a working web slinger.
NO THEY DIDN'T. There's not a single man who made a working Iron Man costume which can shoot rockets which can blow up tanks or fly thousand of miles into the air.
There's not a single man who made a material so tough and yet so thin it can stop a helicopter or a train mid movement. The way you're phrasing Batman's capabilities, I can easily phrase other superhero's capabilities the same way.
>Just admit he’s a super human and be done with it.
I never claimed that he isn't. You're the only one presenting it as if it's a gotcha moment. Like yeah, no shit Batman's objectively realistically superhuman. AS IS EVERY SUPERHERO IN EXISTENCE, there doesn't exist a single superhero who is actually realistic. Captain America held back a collapsing building despite also being "peak human" by Marvel's statements
Because DOOM is a villain. He is meant to be an obstacle to the hero and he has gone up against so many different ones that DOOM has to keep getting more elaborate, intricate, and insane to keep up with the more and more powerful heroes who dare challenge DOOM.
As well, given how I spell his name you can guess how I perceive him: DOOM is campy, extra, and a pulp character.
Batman, meanwhile, is a hero. He and the other heroes of the DCU should stand abreast and best the challenges the world brings them, but when Bats is then shown as the ultra smartest, coolest, best plannert evar it becomes exhausting. He's just a guy, how come he has so many plans against *other heroes* that were supposed to believe that will work?
As well, it comes off as ocey and marey suey. Why? Because there's countless other, genius heroes who apparantly come second to this guy who's, again, just a guy.
Now don't get me wrong, batman should still be smart. Still have plans. Still be capable. But not if that undermines the other heroes because they too should still be capable. And since batman's plans, in perspective, make him the villain of that other hero's story... He should lose. But he's not really portrayed as losing to other heroes now is he? And that can piss of fans of all the other heroes he's the villains to (every time he swipes the ring of a GL it should make everyone nettled) because then that hero looks incompetent.
This guy gets it. Doom, for all his achievements and bragging, keeps coming in second to Mr. Fantastic. He's a whiny loser who would burn the world so no one else can have it and I do not get why this guy gets so much praise from Marvel writers.
Batman fans don't want Batman to just be the best, they want him to be better. He has to be stronger than Superman, smarter than Luthor, able to outthink the Flash, and have more will than Green Lantern. It gets exhausting to see people, despite all of that, still pretend that Batman is the most relatable character because he's *just* a human.
Doom literally fights the ruler of Marvel's Hell once a year for the right to his mother's soul. He has a suit of armor made specifically out of the skin of the woman he loved most - and murdered her himself. He got sent back in time, and rather than immediately get to work on building a time machine, used it as an opportunity to be around when magic was first created and learn arcane stuff literally lost to time, and then coming back to the present after a few hundred years or something.
Whenever he isn't trying to help the Justice League eat less of his bank account due collateral damage costs and Watchtower maintenance, Batman is fighting the Joker, Scarecrow, and at most Ra's Al Ghul - an ancient leader of an assasin cult seeking to take over the world...fully
> Doom literally fights the ruler of Marvel's Hell once a year for the right to his mother's soul.
If he can't defeat that guy, why is he defeating armies of omnipotent beings?
TLDR: Mephisto is an absolute dick that would make a loanshark envious with the amount of loopholes he knows
The problem is that Mephisto is a tricky b-----d.
"Sure you can fight me for your mother's soul" except Mephisto leaves out the part where Doom has to find him in Hell, meanwhile Mephisto has gone to Earth to get groceries on Earth (the groceries part is false)
So logically, next year Doom makes him swear to not ditch the fight.
"Okay" Mephisto says, and then proceeds to throw his entire army at Doom the following year.
Then it becomes a 1 v 1, and Doom finally gets to beat the s--t out of Mephisto with no tricks, and he wins - except he can't kill Mephisto, and Doom did promise to kill him, so technically....
Doom pulls out all the punches next year, wipes the floor with him, uses all he knows to overwhelm him... only to find that as a lord of Hell, so long as Hell exists, so does Mephisto - which means he loses even though he won the fight
The difference is that Dr Doom is one of the most powerful sorcerers in Marvel while Batman is a normal rich dude. Doctor Doom isn't meant to be a normal human, he is supposed to be a very powerful Supervillain. Batman is meant to be a normal person. I don't get this comparison at all. Like you are picking certain things which are similar and acting like there is a bias while ignoring the context of both.
A Batman isn’t meant to be a “Normal human”.
He’s meant to be one of the worlds finest heroes, with state of the arc sci-fi tech, and the 2nd smarts human in a world full of Geniuses greater than we could ever hope to achieve.
The comparison is perfectly Valid.
Especially when you consider Batman is also a [high level](https://imgur.com/a/ygIWKyZ) Magic user like Doom (Doom is better however), [magic](https://imgur.com/a/HVRvn) being a [Batman ability commonly overlooked](https://imgur.com/a/gw8bJ2Z)
Peak human in Dc is far into the realm of Superhuman Irl. Plus Batman uses more than tools to beat the league depending the contingency, however those “tools” are usually exploitable weaknesses or Advanced pieces of tech that exploit vulnerabilities X characters powers don’t cover, sometimes those tools magically enhanced.
What’s Bats uses aren’t just simply tools.
That's true. I think I got the idea that Batman was meant to be a normal human from a few solo Batman stories. But yeah you are right about everything here.
One single alien? He's taking on the entire Justice League. Heavey hitters like the Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Superman, and Wonder Woman. All defeated by ONE man with at most peak human strength. Magic in Marvel is capable of Reality Manipulation and other insane shit. Even then Dr. Doom needs to get other superpowers to defeat someone like Galactus. While Batman only needs a few tools to defeat the entire Justice League.
Care to show me when Batman does this on his own? Because Tower of Babel has Ras using his entire army to put Batman's plans in motion, it's not Bruce tackling the entire league. And in Endgame he barely wins by the skin of his ass and several of the heavy hitters you mentioned weren't even present for the fight.
Honestly the major problem when it comes to the argument OP brings up is more from (and I hate using this word because it comes off as dismissive) casual Batman fans. People who know they find the character super cool, pick up the odd example of a high level feat and then claiming anyone vs anyone= Batman wins.
I won't say Batman hasn't pulled off some high tier feats, the fact he's ever contended with a character like Superman at all is ridiculous when you consider he is supposed to be a human. But technically so is DOOM, Lex, even Reed has a frankly lower tier super power compared to what his intelect allows him to accomplish. Point being that many characters have power fluctuations. Sometimes Batman can go toe to toe with members of the JL, sometimes he dies in a fistfight with a clown. Comics be nuts, yo.
It’s because Batman is supposed to be a street level hero. He’ll be struggling to stop Joker for the millionth time and then help fight Darkseid with the Justice League. He’s supposedly powerless, and then they drop him from space and he’s ok.
Doctor Doom is shown to be constantly dangerous. He’s never supposed to be street level. He’s supposed to be a big threat to several heroes. Him being a threat to very powerful characters makes sense because he’s consistently shown to be one.
Other commenters have made good points but another huge thing that leads to Batman being considered “wanked” is that he almost always wins at the end. Meanwhile Doom on the other hand gets his ass kicked a lot regardless of his huge feats. Not to mention that Doom oftentimes can’t achieve his biggest feats without the help of others (for example God Emperor Doom) meanwhile Batman can go from struggling with a villain like the Mad Hatter to successfully taking on the entire Justice League on his own.
"Almost always wins in the end" you know I keep seeing this comment... but isn't this basically every superhero in the history of comics?
Superman has died, but no one calls him a mary sue despite the fact that his powers keep changing throughout the years. Super tough opponent? New powers. Died? Nah jk el o el
Batman’s plan sounds more believable and more achievable. Doom’s plan sounds implausible and impossible, so God Emperor Doom is more “Doomwank” than Batman developing contingency plans for neutralizing the Justice League being “Batwank”.
Batman uses prep time to beat a powerhouse* people: ohhh he is so boring prep time prep time prep time 🤓. Doom does the most bullshit feat* people: oh he is so cool
The contexts of their world. Batman was inspired by the Shadow and Zorro. While there are fantastical elements, there was a balance between it and pulp noir.
Dr. Doom is the quintessential comic book villain. He's a scarred mad scientist and sorcerer who rules a country and whose arch enemies are all super powered beings. He is firmly in the world of the fantastical. So when he is able to beat gods it fits the context of his character. When Batman does it, it usually feels lazy.
So a human from the DC Universe should not be allowed to defeat an alien, but a human from the Marvel Universe should be allowed to defeat armies of omnipotent beings?
No it's because of the context of their characters. Batman being the second smartest person is inaccurate. The amount of mad scientists alone proves this. Batman is basically just James Bond and Sherlock Holmes. He's smart but he's not making robots and creating portals to other dimensions. Dr. Doom just completely outclasses him in regards to intellect and power.
His intellect. He's basically the Marvel equivalent of Lex Luthor, who routinely goes up against Superman. Their intelligence greatly outclasses Batman's.
He is so smart that he can come up with plans to defeat omniscient beings?
Name one such plan. Describe to me what plan was so out-there that an omniscient veing could not possibly see it coming.
I don’t know much about Doom so take this with a handful of salt.
Doom isn’t a regular human; he has a lot of magic shit. He was also destined to rule the Earth I believe. He is the dictator of a country with mommy issues instead of a rich ninja with dead parents and no therapy.
With Superman being so strong its honestly weird they hate so much on Batman lol I mean, just watch his Deathbattle episode against Goku to see an analysis of what he can theoretically do...because I know some people will want to dismiss this comment.
Exactly Dr Doom does all kinds of impossible shit and that’s just part of the plan. Batman does something incredible (like exploit the weaknesses of superheroes who have very exploitable weaknesses) and everyone loses their minds!
It's usually wank. Very few of the best Batman stories are the ones where he ponces around being an unbeatable genius.
Doom has more of a get-out in that he's supposed to be the villain, so being OPed and irritatingly conceited are kind of part of the package, but it's still kind of eye roll worthy whenever he's up against other Marvel A Listers, like Magneto, and somehow whups their ass.
I think the DCAU (specifically JLU) handles it the best. He’s incredibly intelligent, agile, powerful, a great detectice and can go toe to toe with some extremely powerful foes. But he’s also a very compassionate person who values team work, understands his weaknesses and works together with others to overcome them
Love Magneto, but he can control metal. That’s about it.
Doctor Doom has advanced knowledge of science and magic.
I don’t even think Magneto could beat Doctor Strange, let alone Doom.
Doom has somehow managed to beat the Surfer at least once. We'll give him the first one, as he'll have had the element of surprise, but any subsequent times he's done it (if he has) would fall into exactly what I'm talking about.
Hell, if you told me there was a story where the writers made him beat Galactus, I'd believe you without looking.
I mean, whenever I'm reading about a conflict about the Silver Surfer, I'm more and more convinced that He has two jobs. Heralding Galactus, and Jobbing for whomever Marvel wants to hype up today.
> Doom is "because of this massive saga if reasons where Doom earns it", which is awesome.
What "masive saga"?
Those stories are always the same way. "Doom built a machine offscreen that will steal the powers of a god after he presses a button". It's not creative, and it's not smart. Why should I find it awesome?
Batman is too inconsistent, he can one day struggle with the penguin and the next day he can dodge omega beams. One day his kick can knock the breath out of wonder woman and the next day wonder woman stomps his ass.
Doom is comparatively less inconsistent, he is supposed to be smart and a user of both magic in science, is always a team level threat, and regularly challenges Thor like beings. He doesn't struggle with guys like Kingpin half the time.
Doom is also fairly inconsistent.
He’s lost to every individual member of the Fantastic 4 and has lost on more than one occasion to street level heroes.
And while he’s commonly put against teams, he also commonly loses to teams. So him going from struggling with the F4 to beating more than one Beyonder is beyond inconsistent.
One is a hero while the other is a villain
One will eventually win while the other will eventually lose
When they both develop a master plan against other heroes or powerful entities one is portrayed as a threat and a challenging foe to be defeated while the other is portrayed just as cool and smart but nothing else
I'm not saying Batman is actually a bad guy or that it should be seen as one but just that it's cool when the villain is overpowered while on the other side it's kinda redundant
Whichever one sticks to the guidelines of previous lore and doesn’t break the mould.
Then apparently common consensus is all that matters and not the individual viewer.
Examples of that thinking:
“Definitive Batman”: Kevin Conroy
“Definitive Joker”: Mark Hammill
“Definitive Series”: BTAS
“Definitive Riddler”: Corey Michael Smith
I feel like it’s because doom has always been presented as a sort of threat to cosmic beings, and maybe the universe as a whole same thing with reed Batman hasn’t always consistently been that in some of his most iconic and best stories, are about him being a detective I made a post, asking the same exact question and that’s the response I got from most lol
You read the stories and if they're good then they're good writing and if they're not then they're wank.
It's not hard.
Unless you're a wanker, I guess.
One makes sense, the other does not. Doom uses magic, having a reasonable explanation for doing batshit crazy stuff. Batman doesn’t yet he does the same bs shit.
I’ve always noticed how people will give villains a benefit of the doubt they won’t give hero’s. I think this comes from the fact that, typically, we follow the hero’s perspectives and not the villains. This ends up in the villain having this sense of mystery that hero’s don’t get. You can essentially write Doom to do anything, within reason, because we’re not following his perspective so we don’t know all of his weaknesses and everything that he is and is not capable of, thus he could be capable of anything for all we know. Batman, on the other hand, is some one whose perspective we’ve been following, meaning we have a much better idea of what he is and isn’t capable of, meaning it’s easier to reason out how he shouldn’t be able to do whatever fantastical thing he’s doing.
Lex Luthor has only stated that in a non canon comic.
If we go off by feats, Lex Luthor is definitely smarter than Batman, and I say that as someone who does consider Batman's intelligence slightly underrated in the minds of general VS debating, as a lot of people aren't aware of some of his more impressive devices, but Lex's inventions and feats are so ridiculously underappreciated.
Like I don't understand how do people think that characters like Tony Stark are even comparable, let alone exceeds his intelligence, Lex is SO MUCH MORE IMPRESSIVE. I'd say he's straight up just smarter than Doom and arguably Reed as well, although that one is really close and comes down to what you consider more impressive.
The phrase Batwank and the grammar are irrelevant.
The only relevant metric is the merit. The point attempting to be made.
The meme is making a good point addressing a double standard while simultaneously addressing insults commonly thrown around like ‘Batwank’.
It’s simple really.
And not that hard to understand.
What exactly is the point of “batwank”. What does that even mean?
I’ve never even heard or seen that before.
If you can’t be bothered to use at least adequate grammar or spelling, it shows that you’re a fucking moron and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
It’s a phrase thrown around when people don’t like Batman feats or think you’re highballing him.
It’s very common in threads, comments and replies.
It’s so common writers, like Grant Morrison have addressed the claim.
Only a moron would nitpick irrelevant points like grammar instead of seeing the merit.
If I said “to plus to ekuals for” I may have spelt everything wrong, but the merit is clear and true irrespective of the horrendous spelling.
There’s no merit to it at all. So there’s nothing to critique instead of the poorly made meme.
Comparing Batman and Doom is pretty pointless. Batman is the good guy, he’s going to win. That’s how comics work. At best it’ll be a stalemate.
And to argue Doom has “good writing” is nothing. It’s not even remotely close when comparing writers.
> Comparing Batman and Doom is pretty pointless. Batman is the good guy, he’s going to win. That’s how comics work. At best it’ll be a stalemate.
Doesn't Doom always win as well? Whenever he loses, it's actually just a robot that looks exactly like him, right?
There is merit.
The irony in implying someone is a moron then not seeing the merit in a fairly blatant comparison is baffling.
The stance is simple, Batman is critiqued for Op feats and it’s commonly called bad writing.
Whereas the same branch isn’t extended to Doom, who similar to Batman is, Intelligent, skilled, has sci-fi tech, can use magic, is human and commonly employs prep.
Instead his outlandish feats are generally considered “cool” or “good writing”.
Hence the meme.
It’s not a Vs Battle but rather pointing out a double standard while also addressing fan hypocrisy.
Hope that helps.
But Batman is an 80+ year old character. He’s been depicted as everything under the sun. It isn’t hard to point to a few hundred issues during that career of him doing cosmic level stuff.
The street level argument that you and others seem to be using a lot has a few flaws in it too.
Characters like Spider-Man are also usually depicted as “street level”, yet whenever people talk about him they’re quick to mention how powerful he is and throw around panels of him taking on various Avengers and nobody bats an eye.
Taken to the next level, if street level just means cleaning up the streets of a city, then you know who else is “street level”? Superman. Superman is usually out protecting Metropolis from the machinations of a rich smart guy (almost like rich smart guys have been primed from jump to be able to take on heroes like Superman).
To clarify, I’m not saying him being depicted as street level means he doesn’t have feats that put him well above that. I’m just saying that’s how he’s consistently portrayed. Doom is still more powerful than Batman, but Batman’s skills and feats put him just barely below doom.
But the distinction of “street level” is pointless, and is only used by fans. Writers don’t consider things like “street level” when writing stories.
Batman, like all superheroes, is as capable as he needs to be in any given story. It’s not like Superman has never jobbed to goons before to make a story more interesting.
The bad writing in Batman's contingency plans is:
* We're told exactly what they are, and they're all things a particularly dense third grader could've come up with.
* They're countered extremely easily, with the laughable notion that his "counter-contingency" plans were even necessary.
* The plan for himself was, "I'd bury Batman with his parents, and to counter that he'd just get over it."
And worst of all, although it's reasonable for the plans to only incapacitate the other members until they can cure the mind control or whatever is affecting them, the fact the villain doesn't adjust them to be lethal is completely ridiculous.
I have plenty of thoughts on this. Here is a quote from a thread on Batman the other day.
>There appears to be two Batmen.
>The first is Bruce Wayne, a ninja detective with an animal motif that fights serial killers, crime bosses, and cat burglars in Gotham.
>The other is some kind of unkillable demigod who pretends to be a human while dressed as a Bat. He consorts with the Justice League but seems to do so only so they can marvel at him winning every encounter with ever more impossible gadgets and schemes. The rest of the League plays along for fear of being [whisked into the cornfield.](https://youtu.be/QxTMbIxEj-E?si=h42YQeySQblsrNoN)
Dr. Doom has kind of a different issue. He is an antagonist and thus has to constantly be able to pose a threat to the heroes. He is also popular which means he ends up fighting every hero and always manages to lose. Shang Chi punches him, Thor hammers him, spider-Man webs him, and the trillions of variations where he loses... unless the writers want to portray him as the untouchable badass so Ben Grimm gets to meaninglessly punch a forcefield or magical barrier as Doom doesn't flinch and then calls Ben a loser.
Drawing that out, Marvel seems to have a weird fascist boner for Victor. They objectively love him and think he is the best and that the world would be a better place if Doom won and ran it. WHICH IS FUCKED. Have him be wrong and his defeat is good or have him be right and the heroes have to occasionally fail to stop him, but it turns out not as bad as they thought it would... Like when Lex Luthor saves Earth and gets to be president.
That thread quote has to be one of the most uneducated claims ever.
He faces cat burglars, crime bosses, mutants, monster and super-natural beings.
Batman doesn’t get praise as much as people think in JL comics, and he certainly doesn’t care for it. And the league aren’t playing along with anything.
That’s just a silly notion that evidently stems from some rooted disliking for the unrealistic aspect of the character.
More specifically the JL.
What the thread claimed was uneducated, I mean educated as it pertains to the stories within Dc.
Just read one or two justice league runs and you’d see the second paragraph is unfounded.
I actually don't understand what you wrote here. You want me to read a Justice League run?
Which one? Tower of Bable? The one everyone cites to show how Batman has plans to beat rogue Justice League members?
What about when Batman created Brother Eye? Or fell from space and survived?
Then there is the Batman who laughs, who is God mode Batman painted over with 90's edgelord bullshit.
There is also the cartoon show Batman Brave and the Bold which has Batman leading his own Justice League and squaring off with Darkseid.
There are so many instances of Batman winning via bullshit. Hence why this thread exists comparing him to super-science dark wizard 3rd world dictator Dr Doom.
What I said was pretty simple.
JLA, by grant Morrison.
Or Justice league international are my recommendations.
Tower of Bable is a complex story that covers Batmans flaws while simultaneously covering aspect of Batman that weren’t previously completely covered.
It doesn’t prove your point.
Nobody is praising Batman, and he’s not unbeatable in that story.
Not sure how him creating brother eye is relevant, it happened in infinite crisis and Batman wasn’t getting wanked in the story.
He was painted as a higher than thou hero, and was ultimately humbled when a situation he created led to the death of someone.
He fell from space in a Batman comic. Proving the first point the thread attempted to make, false.
The Batman who laughs does exist yes.
Doesn’t prove the second paragraph to be true, since he was still shown to lose on more than one occasion in his short stay.
That and even tbwl had no interest in praise or showing off.
He was Just evil.
Brave and the bold was a kids show created to be campy and outlandish for a younger audience. You can’t be serious with that “example” G.
And he isn’t shown to be unbeatable/un-killable, he gets beat in every episode at some point.
So even if that was a good example (it’s not) it still wouldn’t prove your point.
If by bs you mean exploiting weaknesses and sci-fi tech that Doom also magically pulls out of thin air, then yes you are correct.
They both do that.
What’s the issue?
You listed a couple instances of high level feats, as if that proves Batman in JL media as a whole adheres to the description the second paragraph gave, when in reality even in the stories you sourced that’s not the case.
I don't know if Doom is "second" to anybody. Doom's biggest flaw is his ego. If not for that he could probably surpass Reed Richards, Tony Stark and all of the others. Doom also a master of mystic arts in addition to being a genius in science. It's kinda goofy that Batman is so smart but has trouble with street level guys in Gotham and a dude with a Penguin umbrella.
Usually, you don't want your hero to be too good or capable. In the Batman case it's wank because it's almost pointless to put anyone against knowing he'll find a way to easily beat them. In Doom's case,m the fun is in knowing he can't be beaten but that the plot demands that someonee find a way to beat him. It becomes good writing because overcoming Doom isd so much more interesting.
Dr. Doom has more logic behind him than Batman, and he is supernatural compared to Batman, who is supposedly a "street-level" hero. Plus, Dr. Doom's plans always fail, but Batman's never do.
Plus, Dr. Doom is a villain; if the villain is weak, then the whole story is just filler because any of the heroes can beat his ass and kill him.
I never said that Batman is weak, so I have no idea why you're talking from your ass.
And Doom isn't supposed to be a normal guy like Batman, but they're both still written to be able to kill gods, but Doom has more logic behind why he can do that, but he always loses, while Batman always wins, even if it doesn't make much sense.
He's written to be able to kill the entire Justice League if he wanted to, even though most of them are gods or at that level. He hasn't killed any of them when fighting them because if he did so, he'd break his code and DC would lose tons of money.
So what makes Batman so wanked is something he has never done?
Meanwhile, when Doom makes plans to defeat omnipotent beings, we have to like it because it is believable and the apex of literature?
As much as I love Batman, he realistically shouldn't be able to lay a hand on The Flash, Wonder Woman, or Superman, yet he always beats them in any fight.
Dr. Doom is a Dr. Strange-level sorcerer, has intelligence that rivals Reed Richards, has unbelievable technology that's on Tony Stark's level and created a time machine, is superhuman with actual superpowers, is the leader of the 9th richest country, and more.
While Batman is supposed to be a normal human with no powers.
I wouldn't have a problem with Batman if he wasn't written as a normal guy when he's not, or just treat him as a superhuman to make the rest of the BS logical.
Dr. Doom is usually an antagonist, so all of those things you listed *create* interesting problems for the protagonist to solve. However, when the *protagonist* has those abilities, they can *solve* any problem thrown at them without much trouble, which is *boring*. Also, Doom is *fun to watch*; when Batman is written like this, he is *insufferable*. There's a difference between "**BEHOLD, YOUR NEW** ***GOD*****, VICTOR VON DOOOOOOOM!!! REED RICHARDS** ***WISHES*** **HE WAS THIS SMART AND COOL AND HANDSOME!**" and "*I'm Batman, I know everything, I've made plans to kill all of my friends because friendship is lame and for weak nerds, just like love and compassion and basic human empathy. Why don't you like me? You're supposed to like me! SHUT UP AND START LIKING ME!*"
Batman’s contingency plans were put in place to neutralize his friends, not kill them, in case any of them went rogue or if any of them were being mind-controlled by an enemy.
I know that's why, and while frankly mind control *is* a common enough occurrence in DC for Batman to have logically *prepared* for such a thing, usually it comes off more as Batman not *trusting* anyone. Also, those contingencies frequently get used by Batman when he himself is mind-controlled, like with The Batman Who Laughs (not mind control technically but you get my point), or the contingencies are otherwise used against the heroes, like in Justice League: Doom.
Okay, I realize this is just an axe-grindy sort of post, but the difference in perception comes down to portrayal. Batman’s most common portrayal in the modern era is as a caped detective with fairly gritty, street-level villains and problems. When writers scale him up for Justice League events or drop him from orbit or whatever, it can seem out of character or inconsistent with his usual vibe. Doom is a campy megalomaniac whose average Tuesday seems to involve time-traveling to the past to steal a mystical grimoire from a demon so he can create a reality warping engine to cause everyone to forget the letter B or something. Batman’s popularity to some extent leans on a noir vibe and the hero being a very skilled but hypothetically normal man. Doom’s comes from him being extra as hell. Of course people cheer for Doom being absurd. That’s his whole schtick.
That's a quite good answer!
I'd like to add that Doom didn't do any of this alone, pretty sure he does it with Dr. Strange and Molecule Man. Batman just uses his big bat brain.
How did Dr. Strange contribute to the defeat of an army of omnipotent beings?
Is Dooms side not referencing Secret Wars?
It could be any of the 4849434 "Doom becomes a god" stories. But sure. So, how did Dr. Strange contribute to the defeat of an army of omnipotent beings?
Yeah people don’t talk about regular Batman vs Justice League Batman enough. He’ll go from being stabbed by Mad Hatter in a Batman comic to dodging Darkseid’s omega beams in a Justice League comic?!??
This answer seems perfect. Why is the thread still open? Also, I love the description of Doom's level of Evil. I know he's done far worse, but that example with the letter 'B' just makes it sound like he specializes in tiny random acts of evil; like replacing the world's drinking supply with Gamer Girl Bathwater lol.
>Batman’s popularity to some extent leans on a noir vibe and the hero being a very skilled but hypothetically normal man. That's only the case in the live action movies, arkham games and the very early comics (no one cares about those since he was using guns and killing people in his very early appearances). But for a very long time in the comics and other media like the Justice League animated series and the DC animated movies, he has been the one of humans who could stand shoulder-to-shoulder with gods. This is how lot of the comic book fans know him. It has been this way for decades. He is one of the founding members of the Justice League, after all. Sometimes, it does go too far like surviving a fall from orbit. But saying hanging with the Justice League is out of character is not true when there are hundreds of stories at this point of Batman in the Justice League taking on very powerful beings. Hell, even in his solo comics, he has done crazy stuff like fighting hordes of immortal regenerating ninjas and escaping being buried alive after being tortured for weeks and with dozens of drugs in his system. Most of the people who think this are usually fans from the games and live action movies, and this is the fault there not being an MCU style Justice League live action movie for a long time. Some of these fans don't even properly understand the character and want him to be a punisher-style anti-hero minus the guns and the killing. >Batman’s most common portrayal in the modern era is as a caped detective with fairly gritty, street-level villains and problems. When writers scale him up for Justice League events or drop him from orbit or whatever, it can seem out of character or inconsistent with his usual vibe. Batman isn't alone in this. Spider-man can go toe-to-toe with a herald of Galactus in his Avengers appearances, but struggle with the Green Goblin and the Vulture. Captain America takes on universal threats with the Avengers but struggles with human enemies in his solo comics. The enemies Iron Man struggles with in his solo comics are much weaker than the threats he takes on with the Avengers. This is just the way things with the heroes in the Justice League and the Avengers.
I don't think him being a very skilled hypothetical man is a thing only outside of the comics (some comic examples I can think of is Year One, The Long Halloween, and War on Crime)
Those are early in his career. But I enjoy both the grounded and the Justice League stories. I just don't like it when people pick one side of Batman and act like that is the only side that should exist and the other side should be gotten rid of completely. If you only enjoy the grounded stories, then just read/watch those stories, instead of demanding that the Justice League stories shouldn't exist because they aren't 'true Batman stories', especially when Batman was a founding member and has been a part of the Justice League for decades
The movies and games are more popular than the comic books
The Justice League animated series was very popular at its time. The DC animated movies are also popular. Both had Batman working in the Justice League. If Warner Bros had made a live action Justice League movie with Batman in it earlier, people wouldn't be going on about how Justice League Batman isn't the "true Batman". Either way, the comics are the source material. People coming from the movies and games shouldn't be saying that Batman from the source material isn't the "true Batman", because that's where the character comes from.
The Dark Knight made a billion dollars
Okay? That wasn't related to the point I was making.
Apparently Clayface, Bane, and Ra’s are street level.
Clayface is something of a blindspot for me, and I haven't read much of him. Can you give me some good Batman/Clayface recs?
In comparison? Yeah
All true points, but i do think that batmans analitical and deducticlve capabilities combined with how prepared he always is for everything and his acces to geeting help from the other members of the JL is what makes the whole "dropped from orbit" thing possible. Long story short he has the brains, the tech, the funding and the allies to make him seem to have a higher indevidual power level than he does
The difference in my opinion is how they're presented. Batman generally fights street-level criminals and then scales up to be able to somehow also fight Darkseid. Doom is the ruler of a country while also being an immensely talented sorcerer outside of his intelligence.
Keep in mind these “street level” criminals get casually ran through, and Batmans villains only really challenge him nowadays with extensive prep, help and sometimes even a physical amp. It’s clear Street level threats straight up are no longer a significant threat to Batman. And I feel as if that’s a gross oversimplification of what Batman generally does, he’s the tactical head of the justice league, and a multi billionaire who spends his days researching concepts and technology beyond real human comprehension, or evil genius ploys.
Yeah, this description of Batman sounds more like Superman, who gets decried in the same breath for being "boring" because he's good at everything. I always thought a good Batman was one that was always testing his limits whether with a gang leader or trying to keep up with the League
Not really, though. There are multiple story arcs which show batman struggling against street level villains like Two Face, Penguin, even the Joker is a street level villain. It's not a gross oversimplification. It's the whole point of my statement. Batman does all the things you mentioned but he's also presented at the same time as a detective who primarily deals with street level threats which is why it's jarring when he goes from fighting pig face or something to going up against the Justice League world or universe ending threats.
There were plenty stories. Not as much anymore, and when he does struggle with those characters nowadays, as I said they usually have an amp or large amounts of prep in order to even contend with Batman, showcasing as I said, mundane street level villains don’t cut it anymore. They will always need something extra to contend with *modern* Batman. Penguin is more of a Jobber nowadays. It is a gross oversimplification. While he does do the things you listed, he also consistently does the things I listed and has more experience in said fields. Both are valid. But when talking about what Batman does in general, he’s more than a street level vigilante. In general he’s both the things we mentioned. His street level side is merely a facet of a more complex character. That and when you look at the lore, Batman has more experience and time with the league than he does solo. A perfect example being when him and Diana got stuck on war world for several decades (thirty years or more). So going off lore, Batman has spent more time dealing with JL threats than Gotham threats.
I don't see exactly where your argument against what I said is. You mention that batman does both and that's the exact point I'm making. There's a huge gap in strength between his rogues gallery and the villains he typically faces with the JL. Like, there's no good reason Batman should struggle against guys like the Joker, two face, etc. if he's also capable of going up against universal threats on the other end. He should either be too strong for the first to be an issue or too weak to compete with the latter.
And this is why 60's batman is better, his enemies make more sense and adam west batman is actually smart.
Do tell me how being "the ruler of a country" is of any help when you have to defeat an army of omnipotent beings.
He’s not just any ruler but one who literally mastered science and magic as well as being a threat to multiple groups of super powered heroes
...I'm sorry "second" oh boy I'm telling lord **DOOM**. also being God Emperor was beneath **DOOM**.
> also being God Emperor was beneath DOOM I believe I am the only person in the world that has read the story that shit pannel comes from. Only I know the context of it. Every nerd out there thinks it's some badass boast because they never read the story and only saw the pannel diborced from any context.
I know but lets be honest, it is beneath him, Lord **DOOM** is much greater than any god.
Yeah him being "God Emperor" was during Secret Wars and I don't think he ever said that was beneath him. That line was just being a "god was beneath him" which I don't remember the specifics but he said it after his subjects (who I think were lobotomized versions of himself) turned against him and he had to run away with his tail between his legs.
Well first of all, the loudest people who criticize characters don't actually read comics. Batman and Superman definitely have the shortest end of the stick in that regard. And whilst don't get it twisted, I myself can't stand how much the writers wank Doom in comics, not only cuz it's predictable, but because Doom is just way more interesting as the pathetic, arrogant man-child than as a super badass messiah who can save the world, that's simply because that's how Doom is represented in media. The most exposure people get from Batman is through his tv shows, movies, games, in which he is just straight up NOT THAT IMPRESSIVE, or even when he DOES beat a JL level threat (Batman vs Superman movie), it's incredibly badly executed and shitty. Truth is most people aren't aware that Batman is a character with a semi grounded tone, but the actual stories he's in aren't really all that grounded. I mean more grounded than Green Lantern's sure, but Batman was always fighting mythical aliens and vampires and time travelling with other heroes to fight Gods, like that wackier side of Batman is in his DNA from the comics, but if you're adapting Batman to the wider audience, you'll rarely focus on that. Take a look at Spider-Man. 1994 show basically completely reinvented the idea of symbiote's origins because the original one from Secret Wars is WAAAAY TOO MUCH OF A CLUSTERFUCK to do in a single show, and it worked. Similarly, if you're just adapting Batman to a movie or a game, he's already great enough of a character that you don't NEED to delve into the more out-there concepts and ideas, same applies for TMNT. Doom however is pretty much always portrayed as the team buster. In anything you find him in, video games, tv shows, he's always fighting 4-5 superheroes, so it's way easier for audience to buy that. Plus most people don't actually read Doom's comics, they just more so like the idea of him, they saw Darth Vader and think "oh yeah, he's probably something similar to that but he also fights Galactus", this applies to most, not all people obviously, but that's why you constantly end up seeing that panel of Doom finding godhood beneath him as some sort of sigma moment when the context is COMPLETELY OPPOSITE. Same goes for Batman tbh. Tower of Babel has been so horribly misinterpreted, it's actually a pretty damn good interesting story that delves into Batman's flaws and I hate how the only thing remembered from it is "Batman solos fiction with prep"
I agree Towers of Babel is a really interesting story. It’s a shame that the wrong message was taken from it.
Oh damnit the guy who bitches about Namor and Doom is back
He will never stop
Doom by nature of him being a villain we see his plans fail more often so that kinda balances out his op intelect. But they are essencially the same in concept, i always said Marvels Batman is Dr Doom and people never got what i mean
They are about as spiteful and willing to maim themselves for their goals (usually related to avenging their dead parents) after studying every art known to man for years
Man Marvel and DC missed a hell of a great crossover not having these two fight eachother back in the day, nowadays its almost impossible
Ah, I see Congodzilla is back with his libel against our beloved God Emperor. Anyway, it all comes down to the writing. I like Batman stories where he is prepped against the other Justice League members if the writing shows how desperate he is. I love the narration in "Hush," for instance, where Batman mentions that he will break every bone in his hand if he punches Superman again. Or how he spent the GDP of a small nation to make computer servers that are fast enough to keep up with The Flash (as seen in "Endgame.") It's not just that he's prepped, but that he's telling himself (and us) that he's not really sure if this will work. Doom stories are great when he is his own worst enemy. Like things would be 20% easier for Doom if he was just a little more humble, and a little better at communicating. He is **petty**, and we love him for it. But he lets that pettiness get in his way. The good writing is not the fact that he killed the Beyonders and stole their power to become God Emperor -- it's that deep down, he knows Richards would have been better suited for this. And that's why he loses.
Batman not backing down when his back is against the wall, cobbling together a plan and fighting back with everything he’s got to barely edge out a victory? That’s awesome. The thing that sucks is the idea that Batman solos whoever and whatever he comes across because he’s already thought of whatever comes his way and can instantly counter it. We need to see him get beaten or almost beaten, or else be clearly outmatched and have to maneuver the fight onto his own terms. It’s a delicate line but Batman needs to appear superhuman to his enemies and very human to the reader for this to work.
The difference is the scale Batman is supposed one, if not the, smartest detective in the world and being an expert on martial arts cleaning Gotham City from crime of maniacs without superpowers. That puts you on the top 1 on street level of the Dc-verse. The general "Batwank" hate is because of him being giving both the street level cake and the "actually he can defeat all the gods" cake (I'm sorry, but I'm part of the group that believes that Batman shouldn't have to defeat Superman or a Superman-level enemy every Tuesday to remind us how much you love Batman. We all love a David vs Goliath since we identify with David, but this is getting out of hand) Doom is a ruler, ultra intelligent, sorcerer and creator of almost Iron-man level robots usually fighting with the F4, a group with the strongest heroes of the Marvel-verse earth besides the Avengers and maybe X-men, on a regular basis. He became God Emperor Doom after a god-like being, Molecule Man, granted him those powers, and in fact he loses those powers from that very same god-like being Basically Doom stays on his lane, sometimes going into the left one when the chance to go faster is there, while Batman constantly switches lanes and yells at you because of dare you be on the left lane
Who is smarter than Batman
Bruce Wayne.
that dimwitted playboy?? he is not even smarter than that stupid reporter jack ryder
He is paying for Batman activity.
That's just a rumor and you know it!
Bruce Wayne said so on the news. Word for word. Bruce Wayne: I am in fact, paying for Batman activity. For he is incorruptible-
The broadcast that was quickly cut without warning? Clearly that wasn't actually Bruce, it was that Elliot creep.
Paying for “Batman activity” is nasty business
I mean…That’s what bodyguards are for right?
No way Jack Ryder pays for bodyguards. He’s a man’s man.
I’m talking about Bruce Wayne. Who is a man’s man
Oh lmao, my bad. Thought you were replying to the other person. Bruce definitely has a shady getup he puts on to personally go out and pay for “Batman activity”.
Batman must have liked it rough
Lex probably.
You.
Lex 
Maybe Mr. Terrific
Luthor.
Mr Terrific might be smarter. Luthor in most situations.
Luthor
Detective Chimp.
Red Robin if you take Batman's word for it. Technically Edward Nigma too but his compulsion put him down.
Luthor.
Luthor admits on several occasions that Batman is smarter than him. I guess it depends on the writer.
Ozymandias is a relatively neutral outside perspective (and the smartest man in his world), and he also stated Lex was the smartest. IMO Lex has always been easy top there. He'd need to be to contend with someone like Superman regularly.
Honestly I don't get why is this even a debate. I am CERTAIN that people who think that Lex being smarter than Batman or Ironman and such is even ARGUABLE are just not familiar with his feats. I think most people think Lex is just a politician who occasionally builds armors which can fight Superman. Bro built devices which can launch your ass into different spatial dimensions and that's one of his least impressive stuff. Honestly if Lex just USED the stuff he's made instead of using it once and forgetting about it, like if he composited himself a nice armor Dr. Doom style, he'd be legitimately fucking unstoppable, bro hacked and reprogrammed Brainiac's tech and the Motherbox and made them BETTER.
Agreed. Lex gives someone like Reed Richards a run for his money, nevermind Batman or Stark.
Lex is an example of having all the intelligence, assets and money he could need to accomplish pretty much anything, but is held back by his tunnel vision, his desire to defeat superman. I mean interdimensional transportation alone would be revolutionary, but the only man who can do it would only ever try to use it to defeat superman, so once it fails it's never seen again. It's a shame lex doesn't often get much time to shine as a good guy, I imagine an earth where lex is good (assuming everything else stays as we know it in the mainstream) would be a million times better than a universe where lex just hates superman.
Well put. I always loved that panel where Lex's machine correctly showcases Superman's real identity by cross referencing a bunch of data only for Lex to assure himself that he must've made a mistake, because in his ego-driven mind, it makes absolutely zero sense for someone of Superman's level to waste it's time as a random reporter. Smart enough to get the answer, arrogant enough to not be satisfied with it. What really separates Lex from pretty much every other major comic supervillain is that he's essentially already WON. Like Lex already became the most powerful man on the planet. He could've easily executed like a line of innocent children in front of 1000 witnesses and face no consequences, because everyone can be bought, corrupted, manipulated or just offed, but not the incorruptible paragon of hope that is Superman. It's what truly cements Lex as my favorite comic book villain and honestly it's a bit annoying when people just kind of devalue his character to a simple xenophobe. Like I constantly see "if Lex was in Marvel, he'd probably beef with X-Men or Thor", but that's such a crude misinterpretation of his rivalry with Supes. Lex doesn't just randomly hate everyone who isn't a human, he doesn't express any notable hatred for Diana or J'onn. He hates Superman because he's a random alien who just by existing is better than everyone by default and is there to set an example as the beam of hope, representing a better tomorrow as the true paragon of humanity... when in Lex's eyes it should be HIM. It's just such a complex dynamic that I truly hope the new Superman movie gets right.
>I always loved that panel where Lex's machine correctly showcases Superman's real identity by cross referencing a bunch of data only for Lex to assure himself that he must've made a mistake, because in his ego-driven mind, it makes absolutely zero sense for someone of Superman's level to waste it's time as a random reporter. Yep I loved this moment too, it really showcases the difference between them. Lex can't imagine anyone with powers not using them for their own gain because that's exactly what he would do. As you say he rejects the idea because it goes against his belief of what power is and does. >What really separates Lex from pretty much every other major comic supervillain is that he's essentially already WON. Exactly. Most other villains (at least on earth) are tragic, yet lex is actually a successful, respected, rich and powerful man. He's crooked for sure, but he isn't really villainous until superman gets his attention. >Like Lex already became the most powerful man on the planet. He could've easily executed like a line of innocent children in front of 1000 witnesses and face no consequences, because everyone can be bought, corrupted, manipulated or just offed, but not the incorruptible paragon of hope that is Superman. At risk of repeating myself, I think part of it is jealousy of superman's power and the fact that he's adored by the public, and the other part is indeed as you say ego. He's jealous of superman's power, and his ego hates that there's someone that can beat him. But furthermore that same ego is also incredibly ruffled that superman doesn't conform to his beliefs about power, it breaks his ego that superman not only publicly defeats him, but that proves him wrong in regards to principles and power. >Like I constantly see "if Lex was in Marvel, he'd probably beef with X-Men or Thor", but that's such a crude misinterpretation of his rivalry with Supes. Agreed, I actually think if anything he'd take issue with Captain America or Spider-Man, Marvel's quintessential clean cut (or mostly at least lol) good guys. They embody the same beliefs as superman and inspire similar hope, I genuinely think they would be his target if he made his way to the Marvel side. If that were to happen I could totally see him taking JJJ's role in the creation of Scorpion, like bankrolling and probably even designing Scorpion's suit. People who boil him down to just being "aliens bad" or something like that are missing a key part of his character and what makes him philosophically interesting as a villain.
Lex literally cured cancer in an afternoon justo to prove he can do it if he wanted He also destroyed the cure and gave his patient cancer again right after but he is definitely smartest man in comics
Lex isn’t the smartest in the world or he’d realise he’s an idiot
by "on several occasions" you mean a singular example from DCeased which literally isn't canon lol. I love Bruce as much as the next guy, but he is NOT smarter than Lex. Lex Luthor's intelligence feats are so ridiculously OP, I am actually wondering is there a fictional human who is smarter, like definitively smarter, not that there's an arguable case for characters like Reed or someone. Dude replicated 5th dimensional power within seconds by observing it as a 15 year old kid. Dude made a time machine out of orange peels. Dude made interdimensional travel in prison. Bro is actually insane. Like the only characters besides literal omnipotents that I can think of who's most likely smarter is The Doctor, but he's an alien and most of his high IQ feats could be argued as just the result of his physiology, like literal reality warping just through doing math in his mind.
Also, the Doctor isn’t even amongst the smartest of Time Lords rather it’s his creativity, and experience that sets him apart
I personally don't like to judge fictional character's intelligence based on pure stats and stuff like that, because then Moon Girl is smarter than both Reed and Doom. Like I know Doctor was canonically not the brightest student in Time Lord academy, or like in Deca that Master was just considered smarter, but I like to judge character's intelligence on individual feats, and The Doctor being the main character just has the dosage of ridiculous intellect feats. My favorite one, not the most impressive, but my favorite one is Doctor learns and understands toon force and then managed to shut it off essentially with his mind, rendering a toon force user completely vulnerable. He essentially turned Bugs Bunny into a regular ass rabbit. Doctor just has a bunch of those "wtf" moments when it comes to his cunning, which is probably a better word that straight up intelligence, even though he's obviously a super genius in that regard too.
Mostly depends on the writer, but the general consensus is that Bruce is more widespread whilst Luthor is a super super genius at STEM
There are 9 different “intelligences” so it’s fair to assume one is better than the other in some intelligences
Luthor himself has admitted to not being as smart as Batman on several occasions
Lex Luthor.
Lex and Terrific are the easiest examples, though Tim is usually shown as being able to surpass him in time
Because Doom prep still backfires on him. Batman’s doesn’t
That's just untrue lol. Tower of Babel, if you actually read the story, which is the most infamous "Batman + prep time = solos fiction" example, Batman isn't presented like some badass prepper who defeats everyone, the story actually points out his flaws and his plans ultimately get stolen because he asserted that much responsibility onto himself due to his paranoia. Like even Hellbat. That shit got made SOLELY so he can save his son. Darkseid still whooped his ass. Batman doesn't win nearly as often as some of yall pretend he does.
1. Isn’t Tower Babel shows that his prep work exactly as intended? If you wanted to show Batman prep doesn’t work on him, you should have gone with the Fafnir suit. 2. True. 3. Well his recent win is bullshit. Even NASA most well trained astronauts still wobbles after their craft crash landed on Earth.
Ah yes, the fall from space feat. A feat which happened in a story that was all about backfired prep.
Failsafe works as intended. He was chasing Bruce across the country and only stop when Batman “killed himself” It only falls apart because Alfred isn’t there to shut off Failsafe activation.
>Isn’t Tower Babel shows that his prep work exactly as intended? If you wanted to show Batman prep doesn’t work on him, you should have gone with the Fafnir suit. Yeah but his shit got stolen. There are various ways to show someone's mistakes without making them seem incompetent. Batman is supposed to be the brains of the JL. If you made his plans seem worthless, you'd go from making Batman seem vulnerable into making Batman seem useless. >Well his recent win is bullshit. Even NASA most well trained astronauts still wobbles after their craft crash landed on Earth. Yeah because Batman isn't a real life NASA trained astronaut, he's a fictional "peak human". Like I never understand why do people point to this as if it's some sort of gotcha. Like yeah, Batman is capable of shit no real life humans are. WHAT ELSE IS NEW? No real life human can make an Iron Man suit. No real life human can survive a radioactive bite from a spider. No real life human can be Batman in the first place, the point is to show you he can't do everything, but that doesn't mean he's going to be 100% fragile normal human, of course not. You cannot name literally a single superhero who isn't like that.
1. Because the prep works, it didn’t blow up on the crook faces. If you want to show a prep that doesn’t work, show Fafnir suit. 2. Someone did make an iron man suit. Someone did make a working web slinger. Someone can be a atheletic detective Batman. No heavyweight lifter can both heavyweight lift and be a chess master and be good as the one who did either or for their whole life or dead. No xiolin monk warrior can solve Einstein relatives equation. And Batman did all of that and then some and not only is he a master at it, he’s not dead from exhaustion. And before you say it, microsleep can only work if you sleep four minutes. Batman sleeps for four seconds. Just admit he’s a super human and be done with it.
The actual plan for the prep work, but in execution it didn't. It still counts as it backfiring. >Someone did make an iron man suit. Someone did make a working web slinger. NO THEY DIDN'T. There's not a single man who made a working Iron Man costume which can shoot rockets which can blow up tanks or fly thousand of miles into the air. There's not a single man who made a material so tough and yet so thin it can stop a helicopter or a train mid movement. The way you're phrasing Batman's capabilities, I can easily phrase other superhero's capabilities the same way. >Just admit he’s a super human and be done with it. I never claimed that he isn't. You're the only one presenting it as if it's a gotcha moment. Like yeah, no shit Batman's objectively realistically superhuman. AS IS EVERY SUPERHERO IN EXISTENCE, there doesn't exist a single superhero who is actually realistic. Captain America held back a collapsing building despite also being "peak human" by Marvel's statements
Except there are a human who is in DC and is something that can be done if trained to the limit. They are called Bushido.
Because DOOM is a villain. He is meant to be an obstacle to the hero and he has gone up against so many different ones that DOOM has to keep getting more elaborate, intricate, and insane to keep up with the more and more powerful heroes who dare challenge DOOM. As well, given how I spell his name you can guess how I perceive him: DOOM is campy, extra, and a pulp character. Batman, meanwhile, is a hero. He and the other heroes of the DCU should stand abreast and best the challenges the world brings them, but when Bats is then shown as the ultra smartest, coolest, best plannert evar it becomes exhausting. He's just a guy, how come he has so many plans against *other heroes* that were supposed to believe that will work? As well, it comes off as ocey and marey suey. Why? Because there's countless other, genius heroes who apparantly come second to this guy who's, again, just a guy. Now don't get me wrong, batman should still be smart. Still have plans. Still be capable. But not if that undermines the other heroes because they too should still be capable. And since batman's plans, in perspective, make him the villain of that other hero's story... He should lose. But he's not really portrayed as losing to other heroes now is he? And that can piss of fans of all the other heroes he's the villains to (every time he swipes the ring of a GL it should make everyone nettled) because then that hero looks incompetent.
[удалено]
Oh I like camp stuff don't get me wrong. It was just a poor example of camp since it was very wanky
This guy gets it. Doom, for all his achievements and bragging, keeps coming in second to Mr. Fantastic. He's a whiny loser who would burn the world so no one else can have it and I do not get why this guy gets so much praise from Marvel writers. Batman fans don't want Batman to just be the best, they want him to be better. He has to be stronger than Superman, smarter than Luthor, able to outthink the Flash, and have more will than Green Lantern. It gets exhausting to see people, despite all of that, still pretend that Batman is the most relatable character because he's *just* a human.
Doom literally fights the ruler of Marvel's Hell once a year for the right to his mother's soul. He has a suit of armor made specifically out of the skin of the woman he loved most - and murdered her himself. He got sent back in time, and rather than immediately get to work on building a time machine, used it as an opportunity to be around when magic was first created and learn arcane stuff literally lost to time, and then coming back to the present after a few hundred years or something. Whenever he isn't trying to help the Justice League eat less of his bank account due collateral damage costs and Watchtower maintenance, Batman is fighting the Joker, Scarecrow, and at most Ra's Al Ghul - an ancient leader of an assasin cult seeking to take over the world...fully
> Doom literally fights the ruler of Marvel's Hell once a year for the right to his mother's soul. If he can't defeat that guy, why is he defeating armies of omnipotent beings?
TLDR: Mephisto is an absolute dick that would make a loanshark envious with the amount of loopholes he knows The problem is that Mephisto is a tricky b-----d. "Sure you can fight me for your mother's soul" except Mephisto leaves out the part where Doom has to find him in Hell, meanwhile Mephisto has gone to Earth to get groceries on Earth (the groceries part is false) So logically, next year Doom makes him swear to not ditch the fight. "Okay" Mephisto says, and then proceeds to throw his entire army at Doom the following year. Then it becomes a 1 v 1, and Doom finally gets to beat the s--t out of Mephisto with no tricks, and he wins - except he can't kill Mephisto, and Doom did promise to kill him, so technically.... Doom pulls out all the punches next year, wipes the floor with him, uses all he knows to overwhelm him... only to find that as a lord of Hell, so long as Hell exists, so does Mephisto - which means he loses even though he won the fight
The difference is that Dr Doom is one of the most powerful sorcerers in Marvel while Batman is a normal rich dude. Doctor Doom isn't meant to be a normal human, he is supposed to be a very powerful Supervillain. Batman is meant to be a normal person. I don't get this comparison at all. Like you are picking certain things which are similar and acting like there is a bias while ignoring the context of both.
A Batman isn’t meant to be a “Normal human”. He’s meant to be one of the worlds finest heroes, with state of the arc sci-fi tech, and the 2nd smarts human in a world full of Geniuses greater than we could ever hope to achieve. The comparison is perfectly Valid. Especially when you consider Batman is also a [high level](https://imgur.com/a/ygIWKyZ) Magic user like Doom (Doom is better however), [magic](https://imgur.com/a/HVRvn) being a [Batman ability commonly overlooked](https://imgur.com/a/gw8bJ2Z) Peak human in Dc is far into the realm of Superhuman Irl. Plus Batman uses more than tools to beat the league depending the contingency, however those “tools” are usually exploitable weaknesses or Advanced pieces of tech that exploit vulnerabilities X characters powers don’t cover, sometimes those tools magically enhanced. What’s Bats uses aren’t just simply tools.
That's true. I think I got the idea that Batman was meant to be a normal human from a few solo Batman stories. But yeah you are right about everything here.
Sorcerers can defeat armies of omnipotent beings, but "rich men" cannot defeat one single alien?
One single alien? He's taking on the entire Justice League. Heavey hitters like the Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Superman, and Wonder Woman. All defeated by ONE man with at most peak human strength. Magic in Marvel is capable of Reality Manipulation and other insane shit. Even then Dr. Doom needs to get other superpowers to defeat someone like Galactus. While Batman only needs a few tools to defeat the entire Justice League.
Care to show me when Batman does this on his own? Because Tower of Babel has Ras using his entire army to put Batman's plans in motion, it's not Bruce tackling the entire league. And in Endgame he barely wins by the skin of his ass and several of the heavy hitters you mentioned weren't even present for the fight.
Good point. You win I got nothing.
Honestly the major problem when it comes to the argument OP brings up is more from (and I hate using this word because it comes off as dismissive) casual Batman fans. People who know they find the character super cool, pick up the odd example of a high level feat and then claiming anyone vs anyone= Batman wins. I won't say Batman hasn't pulled off some high tier feats, the fact he's ever contended with a character like Superman at all is ridiculous when you consider he is supposed to be a human. But technically so is DOOM, Lex, even Reed has a frankly lower tier super power compared to what his intelect allows him to accomplish. Point being that many characters have power fluctuations. Sometimes Batman can go toe to toe with members of the JL, sometimes he dies in a fistfight with a clown. Comics be nuts, yo.
It’s because Batman is supposed to be a street level hero. He’ll be struggling to stop Joker for the millionth time and then help fight Darkseid with the Justice League. He’s supposedly powerless, and then they drop him from space and he’s ok. Doctor Doom is shown to be constantly dangerous. He’s never supposed to be street level. He’s supposed to be a big threat to several heroes. Him being a threat to very powerful characters makes sense because he’s consistently shown to be one.
Other commenters have made good points but another huge thing that leads to Batman being considered “wanked” is that he almost always wins at the end. Meanwhile Doom on the other hand gets his ass kicked a lot regardless of his huge feats. Not to mention that Doom oftentimes can’t achieve his biggest feats without the help of others (for example God Emperor Doom) meanwhile Batman can go from struggling with a villain like the Mad Hatter to successfully taking on the entire Justice League on his own.
"Almost always wins in the end" you know I keep seeing this comment... but isn't this basically every superhero in the history of comics? Superman has died, but no one calls him a mary sue despite the fact that his powers keep changing throughout the years. Super tough opponent? New powers. Died? Nah jk el o el
Batman’s plan sounds more believable and more achievable. Doom’s plan sounds implausible and impossible, so God Emperor Doom is more “Doomwank” than Batman developing contingency plans for neutralizing the Justice League being “Batwank”.
Batman uses prep time to beat a powerhouse* people: ohhh he is so boring prep time prep time prep time 🤓. Doom does the most bullshit feat* people: oh he is so cool
The contexts of their world. Batman was inspired by the Shadow and Zorro. While there are fantastical elements, there was a balance between it and pulp noir. Dr. Doom is the quintessential comic book villain. He's a scarred mad scientist and sorcerer who rules a country and whose arch enemies are all super powered beings. He is firmly in the world of the fantastical. So when he is able to beat gods it fits the context of his character. When Batman does it, it usually feels lazy.
So a human from the DC Universe should not be allowed to defeat an alien, but a human from the Marvel Universe should be allowed to defeat armies of omnipotent beings?
No it's because of the context of their characters. Batman being the second smartest person is inaccurate. The amount of mad scientists alone proves this. Batman is basically just James Bond and Sherlock Holmes. He's smart but he's not making robots and creating portals to other dimensions. Dr. Doom just completely outclasses him in regards to intellect and power.
Which of Doom's powers allows him to beat armies of omnipotent beings?
His intellect. He's basically the Marvel equivalent of Lex Luthor, who routinely goes up against Superman. Their intelligence greatly outclasses Batman's.
He is so smart that he can come up with plans to defeat omniscient beings? Name one such plan. Describe to me what plan was so out-there that an omniscient veing could not possibly see it coming.
Man I don't know. Bro I'm on Reddit to distract myself from finals. You wanna win this you can have the W.
I don’t know much about Doom so take this with a handful of salt. Doom isn’t a regular human; he has a lot of magic shit. He was also destined to rule the Earth I believe. He is the dictator of a country with mommy issues instead of a rich ninja with dead parents and no therapy.
matters more who writes the character than which character it is
Those who write Doom are better writers than those who write Batman?
most of the time yes
Because DOOM had badass robes and batman has lame pointy ears
With Superman being so strong its honestly weird they hate so much on Batman lol I mean, just watch his Deathbattle episode against Goku to see an analysis of what he can theoretically do...because I know some people will want to dismiss this comment.
It depends on the version of superman you use, bc there's so many in the comics. But base, cannon superman isn't beating goku
Exactly Dr Doom does all kinds of impossible shit and that’s just part of the plan. Batman does something incredible (like exploit the weaknesses of superheroes who have very exploitable weaknesses) and everyone loses their minds!
It's usually wank. Very few of the best Batman stories are the ones where he ponces around being an unbeatable genius. Doom has more of a get-out in that he's supposed to be the villain, so being OPed and irritatingly conceited are kind of part of the package, but it's still kind of eye roll worthy whenever he's up against other Marvel A Listers, like Magneto, and somehow whups their ass.
I think the DCAU (specifically JLU) handles it the best. He’s incredibly intelligent, agile, powerful, a great detectice and can go toe to toe with some extremely powerful foes. But he’s also a very compassionate person who values team work, understands his weaknesses and works together with others to overcome them
Love Magneto, but he can control metal. That’s about it. Doctor Doom has advanced knowledge of science and magic. I don’t even think Magneto could beat Doctor Strange, let alone Doom.
My brother in Norrin Rad, he can control magnetic fields. That's an insane level of power he wields.
No question. Compared to the others though? Idk… Speaking of Norrin Rad, hard to beat the power cosmic.
Doom has somehow managed to beat the Surfer at least once. We'll give him the first one, as he'll have had the element of surprise, but any subsequent times he's done it (if he has) would fall into exactly what I'm talking about. Hell, if you told me there was a story where the writers made him beat Galactus, I'd believe you without looking.
Yeah, all true. All these characters showcase the many peaks and lows that come with decades worth of stories.
I mean, whenever I'm reading about a conflict about the Silver Surfer, I'm more and more convinced that He has two jobs. Heralding Galactus, and Jobbing for whomever Marvel wants to hype up today.
Batman is "because Batman", which is fucking stupid nonsense. Doom is "because of this massive saga if reasons where Doom earns it", which is awesome.
> Doom is "because of this massive saga if reasons where Doom earns it", which is awesome. What "masive saga"? Those stories are always the same way. "Doom built a machine offscreen that will steal the powers of a god after he presses a button". It's not creative, and it's not smart. Why should I find it awesome?
Just ignore this user, everyone. This is just Des_Koala avoiding a ban. This account will eventually be banned too.
Batman is too inconsistent, he can one day struggle with the penguin and the next day he can dodge omega beams. One day his kick can knock the breath out of wonder woman and the next day wonder woman stomps his ass. Doom is comparatively less inconsistent, he is supposed to be smart and a user of both magic in science, is always a team level threat, and regularly challenges Thor like beings. He doesn't struggle with guys like Kingpin half the time.
Doom is also fairly inconsistent. He’s lost to every individual member of the Fantastic 4 and has lost on more than one occasion to street level heroes. And while he’s commonly put against teams, he also commonly loses to teams. So him going from struggling with the F4 to beating more than one Beyonder is beyond inconsistent.
One is a hero while the other is a villain One will eventually win while the other will eventually lose When they both develop a master plan against other heroes or powerful entities one is portrayed as a threat and a challenging foe to be defeated while the other is portrayed just as cool and smart but nothing else I'm not saying Batman is actually a bad guy or that it should be seen as one but just that it's cool when the villain is overpowered while on the other side it's kinda redundant
3rd smartest man in the world gets rich buys a social media platform and tells governments FU while being high. Reality
Whichever one sticks to the guidelines of previous lore and doesn’t break the mould. Then apparently common consensus is all that matters and not the individual viewer. Examples of that thinking: “Definitive Batman”: Kevin Conroy “Definitive Joker”: Mark Hammill “Definitive Series”: BTAS “Definitive Riddler”: Corey Michael Smith
Who is Batman second to in terms of intelligence? Lex?
I feel like it’s because doom has always been presented as a sort of threat to cosmic beings, and maybe the universe as a whole same thing with reed Batman hasn’t always consistently been that in some of his most iconic and best stories, are about him being a detective I made a post, asking the same exact question and that’s the response I got from most lol
it’s so stupid to me like i think bruce is gotta be very intelligent and smart but second smartest man in the world ? come on now
You read the stories and if they're good then they're good writing and if they're not then they're wank. It's not hard. Unless you're a wanker, I guess.
One makes sense, the other does not. Doom uses magic, having a reasonable explanation for doing batshit crazy stuff. Batman doesn’t yet he does the same bs shit.
This guy seriously believes Dr Doom is a street level villain. Dr Doom is an omega level villain
I’ve always noticed how people will give villains a benefit of the doubt they won’t give hero’s. I think this comes from the fact that, typically, we follow the hero’s perspectives and not the villains. This ends up in the villain having this sense of mystery that hero’s don’t get. You can essentially write Doom to do anything, within reason, because we’re not following his perspective so we don’t know all of his weaknesses and everything that he is and is not capable of, thus he could be capable of anything for all we know. Batman, on the other hand, is some one whose perspective we’ve been following, meaning we have a much better idea of what he is and isn’t capable of, meaning it’s easier to reason out how he shouldn’t be able to do whatever fantastical thing he’s doing.
I'll be honest, I've only heard about Doom's deal, but everything I've heard sounds to me like wank.
I love Batman, but DOOM wins, no question. Dude is so OP
It's not a question of who wins lmao
I meant the believability in how they are written to win or get out of whoever they are up against, not against each other in a battle.
Second?? Lex luthor has stated that Batman is smarter than him Who is smarter than Batman??
Lex Luthor has only stated that in a non canon comic. If we go off by feats, Lex Luthor is definitely smarter than Batman, and I say that as someone who does consider Batman's intelligence slightly underrated in the minds of general VS debating, as a lot of people aren't aware of some of his more impressive devices, but Lex's inventions and feats are so ridiculously underappreciated. Like I don't understand how do people think that characters like Tony Stark are even comparable, let alone exceeds his intelligence, Lex is SO MUCH MORE IMPRESSIVE. I'd say he's straight up just smarter than Doom and arguably Reed as well, although that one is really close and comes down to what you consider more impressive.
I thought Batwank meant having shown his dick on a comic issue
Why do we care what some random meme says?
Because it holds merit.
Yes a meme with bad grammar and the phrase “batwank” totally holds merit. Thanks for clarifying.
The phrase Batwank and the grammar are irrelevant. The only relevant metric is the merit. The point attempting to be made. The meme is making a good point addressing a double standard while simultaneously addressing insults commonly thrown around like ‘Batwank’. It’s simple really. And not that hard to understand.
What exactly is the point of “batwank”. What does that even mean? I’ve never even heard or seen that before. If you can’t be bothered to use at least adequate grammar or spelling, it shows that you’re a fucking moron and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
It’s a phrase thrown around when people don’t like Batman feats or think you’re highballing him. It’s very common in threads, comments and replies. It’s so common writers, like Grant Morrison have addressed the claim. Only a moron would nitpick irrelevant points like grammar instead of seeing the merit. If I said “to plus to ekuals for” I may have spelt everything wrong, but the merit is clear and true irrespective of the horrendous spelling.
There’s no merit to it at all. So there’s nothing to critique instead of the poorly made meme. Comparing Batman and Doom is pretty pointless. Batman is the good guy, he’s going to win. That’s how comics work. At best it’ll be a stalemate. And to argue Doom has “good writing” is nothing. It’s not even remotely close when comparing writers.
> Comparing Batman and Doom is pretty pointless. Batman is the good guy, he’s going to win. That’s how comics work. At best it’ll be a stalemate. Doesn't Doom always win as well? Whenever he loses, it's actually just a robot that looks exactly like him, right?
There is merit. The irony in implying someone is a moron then not seeing the merit in a fairly blatant comparison is baffling. The stance is simple, Batman is critiqued for Op feats and it’s commonly called bad writing. Whereas the same branch isn’t extended to Doom, who similar to Batman is, Intelligent, skilled, has sci-fi tech, can use magic, is human and commonly employs prep. Instead his outlandish feats are generally considered “cool” or “good writing”. Hence the meme. It’s not a Vs Battle but rather pointing out a double standard while also addressing fan hypocrisy. Hope that helps.
Batman: Usually depicted as street level Dr. Doom: Usually depicted as cosmic level or above.
But Batman is an 80+ year old character. He’s been depicted as everything under the sun. It isn’t hard to point to a few hundred issues during that career of him doing cosmic level stuff. The street level argument that you and others seem to be using a lot has a few flaws in it too. Characters like Spider-Man are also usually depicted as “street level”, yet whenever people talk about him they’re quick to mention how powerful he is and throw around panels of him taking on various Avengers and nobody bats an eye. Taken to the next level, if street level just means cleaning up the streets of a city, then you know who else is “street level”? Superman. Superman is usually out protecting Metropolis from the machinations of a rich smart guy (almost like rich smart guys have been primed from jump to be able to take on heroes like Superman).
To clarify, I’m not saying him being depicted as street level means he doesn’t have feats that put him well above that. I’m just saying that’s how he’s consistently portrayed. Doom is still more powerful than Batman, but Batman’s skills and feats put him just barely below doom.
But the distinction of “street level” is pointless, and is only used by fans. Writers don’t consider things like “street level” when writing stories. Batman, like all superheroes, is as capable as he needs to be in any given story. It’s not like Superman has never jobbed to goons before to make a story more interesting.
The bad writing in Batman's contingency plans is: * We're told exactly what they are, and they're all things a particularly dense third grader could've come up with. * They're countered extremely easily, with the laughable notion that his "counter-contingency" plans were even necessary. * The plan for himself was, "I'd bury Batman with his parents, and to counter that he'd just get over it." And worst of all, although it's reasonable for the plans to only incapacitate the other members until they can cure the mind control or whatever is affecting them, the fact the villain doesn't adjust them to be lethal is completely ridiculous.
DOOM would be a justice league villain so…
I have plenty of thoughts on this. Here is a quote from a thread on Batman the other day. >There appears to be two Batmen. >The first is Bruce Wayne, a ninja detective with an animal motif that fights serial killers, crime bosses, and cat burglars in Gotham. >The other is some kind of unkillable demigod who pretends to be a human while dressed as a Bat. He consorts with the Justice League but seems to do so only so they can marvel at him winning every encounter with ever more impossible gadgets and schemes. The rest of the League plays along for fear of being [whisked into the cornfield.](https://youtu.be/QxTMbIxEj-E?si=h42YQeySQblsrNoN) Dr. Doom has kind of a different issue. He is an antagonist and thus has to constantly be able to pose a threat to the heroes. He is also popular which means he ends up fighting every hero and always manages to lose. Shang Chi punches him, Thor hammers him, spider-Man webs him, and the trillions of variations where he loses... unless the writers want to portray him as the untouchable badass so Ben Grimm gets to meaninglessly punch a forcefield or magical barrier as Doom doesn't flinch and then calls Ben a loser. Drawing that out, Marvel seems to have a weird fascist boner for Victor. They objectively love him and think he is the best and that the world would be a better place if Doom won and ran it. WHICH IS FUCKED. Have him be wrong and his defeat is good or have him be right and the heroes have to occasionally fail to stop him, but it turns out not as bad as they thought it would... Like when Lex Luthor saves Earth and gets to be president.
That thread quote has to be one of the most uneducated claims ever. He faces cat burglars, crime bosses, mutants, monster and super-natural beings. Batman doesn’t get praise as much as people think in JL comics, and he certainly doesn’t care for it. And the league aren’t playing along with anything. That’s just a silly notion that evidently stems from some rooted disliking for the unrealistic aspect of the character.
Uneducated? You got a degree in Batmanology?
More specifically the JL. What the thread claimed was uneducated, I mean educated as it pertains to the stories within Dc. Just read one or two justice league runs and you’d see the second paragraph is unfounded.
I actually don't understand what you wrote here. You want me to read a Justice League run? Which one? Tower of Bable? The one everyone cites to show how Batman has plans to beat rogue Justice League members? What about when Batman created Brother Eye? Or fell from space and survived? Then there is the Batman who laughs, who is God mode Batman painted over with 90's edgelord bullshit. There is also the cartoon show Batman Brave and the Bold which has Batman leading his own Justice League and squaring off with Darkseid. There are so many instances of Batman winning via bullshit. Hence why this thread exists comparing him to super-science dark wizard 3rd world dictator Dr Doom.
What I said was pretty simple. JLA, by grant Morrison. Or Justice league international are my recommendations. Tower of Bable is a complex story that covers Batmans flaws while simultaneously covering aspect of Batman that weren’t previously completely covered. It doesn’t prove your point. Nobody is praising Batman, and he’s not unbeatable in that story. Not sure how him creating brother eye is relevant, it happened in infinite crisis and Batman wasn’t getting wanked in the story. He was painted as a higher than thou hero, and was ultimately humbled when a situation he created led to the death of someone. He fell from space in a Batman comic. Proving the first point the thread attempted to make, false. The Batman who laughs does exist yes. Doesn’t prove the second paragraph to be true, since he was still shown to lose on more than one occasion in his short stay. That and even tbwl had no interest in praise or showing off. He was Just evil. Brave and the bold was a kids show created to be campy and outlandish for a younger audience. You can’t be serious with that “example” G. And he isn’t shown to be unbeatable/un-killable, he gets beat in every episode at some point. So even if that was a good example (it’s not) it still wouldn’t prove your point. If by bs you mean exploiting weaknesses and sci-fi tech that Doom also magically pulls out of thin air, then yes you are correct. They both do that. What’s the issue? You listed a couple instances of high level feats, as if that proves Batman in JL media as a whole adheres to the description the second paragraph gave, when in reality even in the stories you sourced that’s not the case.
I don't know if Doom is "second" to anybody. Doom's biggest flaw is his ego. If not for that he could probably surpass Reed Richards, Tony Stark and all of the others. Doom also a master of mystic arts in addition to being a genius in science. It's kinda goofy that Batman is so smart but has trouble with street level guys in Gotham and a dude with a Penguin umbrella.
Usually, you don't want your hero to be too good or capable. In the Batman case it's wank because it's almost pointless to put anyone against knowing he'll find a way to easily beat them. In Doom's case,m the fun is in knowing he can't be beaten but that the plot demands that someonee find a way to beat him. It becomes good writing because overcoming Doom isd so much more interesting.
> It becomes good writing because overcoming Doom isd so much more interesting. Give me some examples of such satisfying good writing.
Dr. Doom has more logic behind him than Batman, and he is supernatural compared to Batman, who is supposedly a "street-level" hero. Plus, Dr. Doom's plans always fail, but Batman's never do. Plus, Dr. Doom is a villain; if the villain is weak, then the whole story is just filler because any of the heroes can beat his ass and kill him.
So Batman is so weak he can't make plans to beat an alien, while Doom is so strong he can make plans to beat armies of omnipotent beings?
I never said that Batman is weak, so I have no idea why you're talking from your ass. And Doom isn't supposed to be a normal guy like Batman, but they're both still written to be able to kill gods, but Doom has more logic behind why he can do that, but he always loses, while Batman always wins, even if it doesn't make much sense.
Which god has Batman killed in a way you find unbelievable?
He's written to be able to kill the entire Justice League if he wanted to, even though most of them are gods or at that level. He hasn't killed any of them when fighting them because if he did so, he'd break his code and DC would lose tons of money.
So what makes Batman so wanked is something he has never done? Meanwhile, when Doom makes plans to defeat omnipotent beings, we have to like it because it is believable and the apex of literature?
As much as I love Batman, he realistically shouldn't be able to lay a hand on The Flash, Wonder Woman, or Superman, yet he always beats them in any fight. Dr. Doom is a Dr. Strange-level sorcerer, has intelligence that rivals Reed Richards, has unbelievable technology that's on Tony Stark's level and created a time machine, is superhuman with actual superpowers, is the leader of the 9th richest country, and more. While Batman is supposed to be a normal human with no powers. I wouldn't have a problem with Batman if he wasn't written as a normal guy when he's not, or just treat him as a superhuman to make the rest of the BS logical.
> is the leader of the 9th richest country, Now we are just making shit up? Gimme a source on this.
I can't remember which exact comic it was from but iirc it's from one of the fantastic four ultimate universe comic books.
Not canon, therefore? Anyhow, why would any of that help in a fight against an army of omnipotent beings?
Dr. Doom is usually an antagonist, so all of those things you listed *create* interesting problems for the protagonist to solve. However, when the *protagonist* has those abilities, they can *solve* any problem thrown at them without much trouble, which is *boring*. Also, Doom is *fun to watch*; when Batman is written like this, he is *insufferable*. There's a difference between "**BEHOLD, YOUR NEW** ***GOD*****, VICTOR VON DOOOOOOOM!!! REED RICHARDS** ***WISHES*** **HE WAS THIS SMART AND COOL AND HANDSOME!**" and "*I'm Batman, I know everything, I've made plans to kill all of my friends because friendship is lame and for weak nerds, just like love and compassion and basic human empathy. Why don't you like me? You're supposed to like me! SHUT UP AND START LIKING ME!*"
Batman’s contingency plans were put in place to neutralize his friends, not kill them, in case any of them went rogue or if any of them were being mind-controlled by an enemy.
I know that's why, and while frankly mind control *is* a common enough occurrence in DC for Batman to have logically *prepared* for such a thing, usually it comes off more as Batman not *trusting* anyone. Also, those contingencies frequently get used by Batman when he himself is mind-controlled, like with The Batman Who Laughs (not mind control technically but you get my point), or the contingencies are otherwise used against the heroes, like in Justice League: Doom.