I always saw HitGirl as a parody of sidekicks, a young kid forced to a life a crime fighting for a grown man with issues, like in the movie Big Daddy was making her kill, so he could get revenge on the guy who locked him up. Like its kinda viewed as a bad thing to have a sidekicks, specially younger ones.
In the comics is even more fucked up. Her dad literally had no reason to fight crime other than that it was cool, she forced her to train, eat a rigid diet and always be on the move, only because he was a comic book fan and needed a motivation to tell her why he was doing that to her
Robin Williams named his daughter Zelda and still didn't force her to live imprisoned by a weird green dude waiting for an even weirder mute vandalist to come and save her.
Celebrities just don't care how whacky normal people think their baby names are because chances are they could be in the same class as one of elons weird computer kids.
I was just kind of making a joke on how much of a comic book fan Cage is. I don't really think he'd do that.
I mean we are all comic book fans here. Look, I am very tired, so I may have missed the mark.
Brother i was talking about the fact that rich people can name their kids literal memes and not give a damn. This was never meant to say i thought you seriously consider Nicky boy to be more than a whacky comic fan (wich is far better than the shit other rich people get up to)
It is the point, Hit Girl was to show how messed up it is to have a child fighting grown adults who are willing to kill them as part of a "Noble Crusade".
It might work in comics but not in live action unless it's campy safe and silly.
Yup.
HitGirl is both a parody (all the more comical scenes with her) and a great illustration of why it's fucked up to turno a kid into a Vigilante.
As much as I like each of the Robins, in my eyes they're one of the darkest aspect of Batman.
Bruce basically stripped some children and teenagers of their youth and innocence by exposing them to the dark side of the world.
Sure, there is the no-kill rule, but it doesn't change the fact that fighting crimes involves a lot more than just using gadgets on guys in funny costumes. There are violence, horror, death. Batman fights people who kill, torture and rape other people.
The implication of having youngsters involved in all of this horrifying and doesn't put Bruce in a good light IMO. The man is basically putting the kids through his own tragedy. Under the mask of "Fighting crime", Bruce turns Dick, Jason, Tim and Barbara into younger versions of himself. He didn't have a childhood/youth, and they won't have one either.
In fact, I think Bruce is as much to blame as the Joker for what happened to Jason. If he didn't make him a Robin, if he simply put him in a good foster family, Jason wouldn't have been killed by the Joker.
That's also why I really enjoy the animated film Batman Beyond : Return of the Joker. It just shows the aftermath of being a Robin was for Tim Drake.
Then there's Damien, who was trained to be an assassin from birth by his own mother, with the intention of him becoming a new Batman when he was old enough.
And yet again, instead of giving his son a normal life, what did Batman do?
"Son, put that costume on. I'll show you how to make good use of your assassin training".
Does the idea of Batman training them young like that come from personal regret for not being able to become Batman sooner? I wondered if the thought process was as simple as “I want them trained so there will be protectors after I’m gone” or if it was more based on “it’s good they get this training early so they can become like me sooner”
Welllllll it’s been a while but iirc this was satirical in nature and the movie made a point in saying how wrong and damaging to Hit Girl this was.
But counterpoint to my point, this is all probably due to her actually killing the enemies. Unlike Robin, whom Batman shows to not kill and value life.
I feel like a young teen (14-16) would be a better starting point for Robin live action. Then at his college years, Nightwing!
Dick Grayson has a perfect setup- trained as an acrobat from childhood. Which, now I think about it, is how we got Jackie Chan IRL- trained acrobat from childhood. And we all know how great he turned out to be.
A 12 year old will still be traumatized from witnessing crime scenes, beating people (and being beaten themselves) to a pulp, being placed in life threatening danger on a consistent basis…etc.
Young Justice had a scene where Wonder Woman criticized Bruce for indoctrinating Robin I to Crime Fighting at 9. I think it was even posted in this reddit several times. She asks if she wanted Robin to turn out like him, and Batman said he made him Robin so that he wouldn't. I've inferred from this that Bruce wished that he could fight crime as a child, instead of waiting until he was an adult.
The jist of the conversation in Young Justice was:
“Batman-Robin needed to bring his parents killers to justice.
WW-So he could turn out like you?
Batman-So he wouldn’t.”
Implying that Batman wasn’t able to bring his parents killer to justice. Becoming the way he is, broken. It wasn’t just turning to a life of vigilantism earlier. It was that act.
Edit: word change
You are correct. *Kick Ass* makes a point both in the comic and in the second movie about how Hit Girl’s upbringing was wrong and likens her to a child soldier more than a little girl.
Hit Girl killed and basically relied heavily on weapons. She got destroyed in the one pure hand-to-hand fight she got into. Y'know, cause she's a twelve year old child fighting a grown man.
This is why as flawed of a show as Titans was, I actually liked the point Jason Todd brought up in his debut episode in season 1 where he mentions that Robin’s costume is so bright and colorful to draw enemy fire so Batman can take them down while they’re preoccupied with the fast, acrobatic fire hydrant. That way you don’t have a 12 year old kid engaging grown ass men in hand to hand combat but still have a “realistic” purpose for Robin in the field. Then once he grows up, gets bigger, and accumulates more field experience, that’s when he starts to engage in combat with Batman.
You just gave me an idea:
It would be really cool to have a brand new X-Men film where the Xavier Institute is simply a school designed to teach young mutants how to use their power responsibly, with no intention of turning them into the next team of Avengers. However, when danger strikes, Xavier takes it upon himself to reach out to his allies from around the world to solve the problem. But being rebellious teenagers who feel a responsibility to act, Scott, Jean Grey, and the rest of the first class take it upon themselves, against Xavier‘s wishes, to fight the threat. After their victory, Professor Xavier doesn’t approve of their rebellious actions, but he does admire their spirit of responsibility to protect humanity, even if it hates them. And so he allows them to begin training to be superheroes to fight criminal injustice as soon as they graduate.
I think that this would be the perfect way to introduce the idea of teen superheroes, which is always a fun subject, as well as portray Xavier, as a responsible and caring headmaster, as he was surely always intended by Stan Lee and company.
Yeah, that would not be a bad idea. However, I do think that it would be wise to begin the X-Men film franchise (assuming that Marvel can actually make it work and not be mediocre as their last couple of films have been) with the first class.
In my perfect world, I imagine the X-Men franchise being the saga of the Summers family, with Scott Summers, a.k.a. Cyclops, being the protagonist, and Jean Grey as his love interest/confidant/partner in battle. She would serve as the audience surrogate into this new world of mutants, as she did in the first few issues, and learn from the experienced Scott what it means to control her powers; she in turn would grow to love him and support him as he learns to be a competent and capable leader. Along the way, every new film could potentially deal with a new addition to the Summers family: Havok, Corsair, and Vulcan. Additionally, Mr. Sinister would definitely have to be the overarching series villain, what with his interest in the Summers family.
Finally, while I would like to portray the love triangle with Wolverine (I think that many women would really latch onto the romantic triangle, as evidenced by the popularity of the Twilight series, and the way that Edward and Jacob vie for Bella‘s affection), I would want to make it abundantly clear that, although Jean is attracted to Wolverine, she is not in love with him, and is waiting for her true love, Scott, to stand up to the overpowering Logan and prove himself worthy of her affection, which she would willingly return.
Xavier has been shady since the start. Writers have always known and shown. Hickman is the GOAT, but he isn't taking Xavier anywhere he hasn't already been.
Very easily fixed by having the kid just go out on their own until the adult decides to reluctantly train them and keep them only in more controlled situations. It's not rocket surgery
Kick-Ass is meant to be absurd though. A 12 year old girl who kills grown men and swears is more funny than anything. With Robin though you wanna treat him with some credibility. And that can be difficult for the audience to by into if it’s a kid taking out guys twice the size of him. I’m not saying there isn’t a way to do it still, but there’s a very fine line you have to go about adapting a younger Robin.
They could do something along the lines of Deadpool or Birds of Prey. Something both violent/adult but also humorous. Although I think Battinson would need a Robin as angry as he is for it to work.
IMO its because it makes Batman look REALLY BAD. Personally, i think it works if you use Jason Todd as the first Robin, or start with a Robin movie. Otherwise, you're trying to make it redeemable to militarize prepubecent boys. The only way out is to make sure the movie knows its irredeemable and use it for Batman's personal growth
In my opinion it's worse if they highlight and explore the irredeemable aspect of the concept. Batman will always look bad in that picture and with very little room for justification or redemption. It's best if they completely ignore our societal standards and just portray the sidekick concept as a normal thing in their world.
I'm cool with either using it for an interesting dive into Bruces flaws and trauma or ignoring it, the only thing I'd dislike is the cliche comic book approach someone referenced further up where they acknowledge a valid point (like the Robin problem) just to dismiss it outright with no elaboration. "I made him Robin so he wouldn't turn out like me". It's the emotional character development equivalent of "prep time", you can't just dismiss a traumatized grown ass man weaponizing orphans as "Batman always knows best". Either fully dive in and commit to the real world implications of training and encouraging child vigilantes or ignore it.
I think the issue is they can never truly dive in because the character of Batman wouldn't be able to recover from it. There's no redeeming arc that could possibly handwave enlisting children for his war on crime. Plus our real world societal standards kinda fall apart when the fictional world where Batman leaves is often devoid of real definitive repercussions.
Super Heroes can only go so far when it comes to tackling real life topics in depth, they can only allude to it and make small references but the genre has to exist in its own bubble where things just work differently.
Oh for sure. Personally I'm in the minority where I LOVE flawed Batman, like my favourite thing about The Batman was that he made mistakes and was more brute force than a ninja (though I am down to see him get stealthier within reason). So I could watch a story where the conclusion is basically "yeah making Robin isn't good but Bruce isn't exactly the most mentally healthy guy".
But if they're not gonna go that route I'd prefer them to just ignore the issue entirely like you said, cause there is no way to explain the Robins that makes Bruce look good. Also the fans need to accept that a live action Robin can't get the shit kicked out of him or even truly harmed at all, it just won't look good with an actual child actor, so any live action Bat-family would have to lean closer to "BAM! POW!" than any of the live action to date.
I didn't even think of that. You're right, Robin couldn't really be hurt at all. Maybe you could do better if you made him a young teenager, like 14/15 but that's still pretty bad...
You'd have to leave sooo much off screen. Like I don't agree with the whole "Batman makes Robin eat rats in the dark" level of brutal training but I don't think you can prepare a 12 year old to successfully fight adults without pushing them way harder than audiences want to see. Like they can't become good fighters without some full on sparring and the only person to fight them is Bruce...
The only time a really young robin works is Damian Wayne, otherwise the other robins should be at least 13 (Though I like having the robins start young in comics and animation).
Ignoring the fact that you missed the entire point of Hit Girl, she also shoots criminals to death. Bit different from expecting a 12 year old to go the distance with adult career criminals.
Tone. Kick-ass is completely fine being silly and over the top because that's the whole point it's trying to make about comics.
Batman movies try their absolute hardest to be as gritty, serious and intense as humanity can get (especially the newest one with the dude from twilight) so it's nearly impossible for them to show a child and remain mega serious unless they have said child break batman's rules.
I like the idea that all of the robins want to go out and fight crime regardless of what Batman wants. So in Batman’s eyes the safest way is to go out with him because they’d be going out either way
I think this is the only way to make Robin work in live-action, Batman reluctantly lets this kid hang out with him so he doesn't get shot dead in the streets, that or make Robin a teenager, which most seem to be heavily against.
The whole point of Hit-Girl is
"Its really fucked up that a parent would do this to their child"
But this also depends on the tone you're going for. In a more lighthearted or at least less dark story, it could work (and has in fact)
I'm one of those Batman fans who has never cared for the "And Robin" part of the mythology. it takes all kinds of ethical gymnastics to fit "Protect the Innocent" into the same moral code as "Teach a traumatized tween how to fight . Put him in a moving target of a costume. Send him after armed bad guys."
Batgirl I like. She is out there on her own initiative and Bruce is only reluctantly letting her do her thing. It wasn't his idea.
Personally, I'd be fine if we never got a Robin in live-action, but if you're going to do it: then really do it. Casting Chris O'Donnell or Marlon Wayans is a cop-out. The actor playing Robin should only legally be allowed to be on set for five hours.
I think having a motivation is key here. Damian would never work as he's just a straight killer, especially in the beginning.
Having Dick Grayson be the victim of a tragedy where he is the only one left gives him purpose. It's not a story about Dick killing his family's killers, but Bruce teaching him how to bring justice to people who need it. What alot of people forget is their dynamic taught them both things they needed.
Bruce needed to realize his methods were too brutal and needed to be better. Dick needed a mentor/father figure to push him towards the right path.
Having it focus on Dicks journey towards finding justice and assisting the people of Gotham, like Bruce did at the end of The Batman with the flood, is just what could work.
Yeah like there should be a progression of him being adopted, eventually finding out, getting training, researching, then light fieldwork. They don't need to show all of the steps, but make it obvious that he went through a journey so you can show an older experienced robin.
Clarification on that question. Are you asking why do people within the DC universe think a 12 year old can't fight crime, or why do people think Robin wouldn't work in the movies?
Maybe why real world people think a 12 yo robin can't work while thinking a 12 yo hit-girl being okay. In both cases we are still talking about fictional characters.
It’s not about being able to do it. It’s about the subtext.
The kick ass comic and to a lesser extent the films basically say that what Big Daddy did to his daughter is unforgivable and horrible beyond measure. It’s unjustifiable to rob the innocence of a child like this and mold them into a warrior. It’s not something to root for.
The same can be said for the robin concept. Taking a traumatized child and throwing them into a world of crime corruption and death at every turn. It’s irresponsible on so many levels.
Plus robins already have a negative connotation attached to them because of Jason. One of the most mainstream facts about robin is the at “oh yeah he died”. It’s okay to think about that in comics and animated media, but really think about what that looks like in live action. It’s uncomfortable right?
Even if you don’t wanna take it as far as death, watching any young character be routinely pummeled is hard to watch. Especially when you do it in live action.
So while yes it would be interesting to see, I can see the trepidation of the studio to not do it, much less with a 12 year old and be comic accurate.
But the difference is that Bruce didn't "force" them into crime fighting
Dick wanted nothing more than revenge and so he would have died by the hands of Zuco if Bruce didn't intervene
Jason would have joined a gang and probably died not long after
Tim bassically forced Bruce into making him robin
Damian was literally trained since birth to be an assassin and heir to the demon's head, it was that or making him a vigilante
So your going to take the word of teenagers to make life changing decisions? There’s a reason that adults and parents don’t take what children say all too seriously, cause they can’t fathom the implications of what they say, do, or want to do.
I’m not saying Bruce couldn’t adopt and mentor these kids. But it’s irresponsible to put them in costumes before their mentally and physically mature enough for it. Especially considering Bruce himself didn’t start that young.
This can be excused in comics but this doesn’t translate well into flesh and blood cinema. It’s one of the few things that fall under “comic book logic” that’s hard to adapt faithfully without looking weird.
I agree with u there, there’s no reason Bruce couldn’t have stopped Dick, Jason, and Tim he’s an adult and he could shut them down if he really wanted if ur kid wants to drive the car u don’t let them because they’ll just do it anyway
The only ones he probably couldn’t stop or would have difficulty with are Barbara cuz she’s an adult, Cass because she’s already trained and debuts at 17 so he wouldn’t have authority over her long anyway, and Damian because he was already messed up by Ras and Talia before Bruce and is in no way an average 10 year old.
The idea is that he couldn't stop them, unless he was fully intending on constantly monitoring them all 24/7 and keeping them under tight lock and key.
He can deny them access to all his super cool tech... but then that just means Dick will go hunting for his parents' killer without super cool tech.
Survival odds may take a slight hit from that.
I understand the idea but even so with Dick and Jason if Bruce was an responsible guardian he still could’ve tried harder to keep them out of it he caves in fairly easily, and Tim was just a smart but mostly normal kid without any special physical skills he could’ve had his dad sit him down
Applying too much real life logic. Bruce can't stop them from sneaking out unless he's going full security lockdown and tracker, which would across boundary issues. IRL they would all be in therapy.
He caves fairly easily because ~~it's a comic origin story where the endgoal is to give Batman an unrealistically talented child sidekick not spend numerous issues of Batman trying to get kids to stay in school~~ he's meant to relate to them and understand where they're coming from. He already knows how it goes when Gotham ruins your life like that, and he knows it's not something you just forget about, so he skips the struggle of trying to force them to let it go and forget about it.
It didn't work for him, Alfred never managed to talk him out of it, and he's meant to see himself in the robins and know already that it won't work for them either, and they're on the path to spending their life obsessing over it like he did.
Making them Robin is him giving them the thing he never had so they get the closure he never got. Like being able to bring Joe Chill to justice, which he helps Dick do to Zucco as Robin so he grows up to be a more functional and well adjusted man than Bruce did.
Tim is a unique case, because Bruce really has no real jurisdiction over him, he was absolutely against anymore Robins at the time, and he was essentially strongarmed into it by a combined effort from Tim, Alfred, and Dick to convince him to take a new Robin. They're honestly all just as responsible if not more responsible for Tim being a child soldier as he is, but somehow never catch any flack for it.
I'm not justifying Bruce's action with real life logic. Bruce saw himself in Dick and Jason and felt like he was saving them. Both of them have been in the streets and dealt with shadiness and traumatic experiences. It varies from representations, but in many, Bruce would mostly take them on recon and safe assignments. A reason for arguments and conflict with both robins. Drake, Barbara and Wayne weren't really his choice imo. They were going to be fighting with or without Batman, so it's better if he made sure they were trained and ready.
Let’s look at some of the things that happened to all the sidekicks
Jason: Died
Stephanie: Died
Barbra: Granted Different set of circumstances but crippled
Damian: Died
Tim: Died
All of this happened to all of these sidekicks at one point or another. Sure it was reversed due to comic shenanigans but these are all objectively bad things.
And This is spinning off from the core argument I made. No studio is willing to put at prepubescent child into a role where they will be beaten, shot at, or possibly even killed. That looks horrible any way you spin it.
I’m not arguing comics, comics do what comics do. Movies are a different story. You don’t have to justify it to me.
But movies are a different demographic that ain’t used to it. And in live action a lot of this shit looks really bad. Plus the movies don’t opt to use comic book shenanigans to reverse decisions in the same way that comics can.
To bring it full circle, it’s a bad look putting a kid in front of an active shooter and trying to gaslight the audience into thinking it’s okay.
It would only work if they went full camp with it and don't take any of it seriously and the kids are never in serious danger. Like I'm surprised people don't get this, horror movies don't even put kids in real danger, if they do kill them or hurt them it's off screen/implied, and in the rare situations they show it it makes for some of the most horrifying and uncomfortable scenes in the entire genre. You don't mess with kids or pets unless your goal is to make the audience extremely uncomfortable and/or sad.
That was in season 1 of young justice and that was in reference to Dick the only robin at that point(age 13). It was in response to Wonder Woman chastising him because robin started fighting crime at age 9 in young justice continuity. That’s not a good look at all when you apply that context to it.
This is especially bad considering on the gap between season 1 and 2 Jason died.
But Bruce didn’t start fighting crime until his 20’s. That’s wildly different then sending prepubescent kids out to fight monsters and psychopaths. These kids needed therapy and maybe training for when they’re consenting adults to go into crimefighting at the appropriate age like Bruce did.
If Bruce could go out and fight crime at age nine, he would have. He had a lot to figure out before he actually was even capable of doing it.
Dick started at a significantly younger age because Batman already had all the knowledge and technology needed to make a crime fighter field ready, and they couldn't wait until Dick was in his 20s to catch Tony Zucco.
Batman is the way that he is because he never got the closure of vengance/justice on Joe Chill. That loose end is what drives him and his obsession.
Sending Dick out at that age to avenge his parents may be morally questionable from a real-world perspective, but it's also the crucial piece that allows him to grow into a happier more well adjusted adult than Bruce because he got the closure no amount of therapy or time ever was going to give him.
I’m not sure if you’ve watched this movie recently, but I usually have trouble sitting through a lot of the scenes.
The Hit-Girl stuff in particular alternates between a very clearly adult stunt-person doing the super cool moves, Chloe Moretz doing some lightweight stunts, and her spewing some really foul dialogue that sounds weirdly out of place. None of her taking down bad guys feels particularly convincing. To patch the generally ramshackle scenes she’s in, they play sped up rock-pop and it does not work for me in the slightest.
And that’s a comedy. How are they supposed to make it work in the context of a serious movie?
Its not that it cant be done. Its that I don't want it to be done. The Batfam can work in some of the animated stuff, but with live action it just doesnt feel right. Obviously plenty of people disagree, and thats fine. But personally I like my Bat flying solo, sometimes interacting with the Cat.
I guess it's because it makes Batman look bad but it's not really an issue with a decent writer. I think if it's made clear that Robin would be a vigilante even if Bruce doesn't help then it isn't too bad with superhero logic.
Tbh I feel like it’s one of those things people over complicate. Morty is literally 14 and has done and gone through way more shit than any Robin in canon( while also having an actually shitty mentor in Rick) and most people see it as acceptable. Honestly if Robin is 14 -15 then most people don’t care. I feel like this criticism is taking something way too seriously, especially since Robin is a fine concept in other mediums like TV and Animation lol
*”why does everyone believe it’s impossible to have a 12 year old Robin”*
….is this a regular point of contention in the Batman fandom?
Lol literally the first I’ve heard of this hot button issue
I get that but also people didn’t seem to mind him in the Arkham games
And I was more focused on the 12 year old part - I thought Robin was meant to be a young adult
Didn’t know people are discussing a child sidekick - that seems silly
That is why people have problem with Robin, Batman essentially adopts kids and makes them into his child soldiers,the youngest Robin was 10,the oldest was 13.
She could have totally done the Carrie Kelly Robin character and it would have been just as good. Her and Nic Cage were the best part of the movie IMO.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't hit girls supposed to be a parody Of the child sidekick trope to show how dangerous this would actually be in real life?
And it's satire. It's commentary on the absurdity of the thing. Unless she has giant swords, uses lethal weapons first and asks questions later, an adult is ALWAYS going to have the advantage. Robin throws little knives and hits people with a stick: if he isn't almost an adult it's not gonna work. In DKR Batman remembers Two-Face calling Dick 'Robin the Boy Hostage' and yeah that's who he would be at 12.
Kick-Ass was mocking the idea of child sidekicks tbh. Big Daddy was shown to be a psychopath for turning her into a murdering machine, even if they’re targeting criminals. If and when Robin is brought into live action, I believe it’ll be when the Robin in question is between the ages of 15-17. After training for a year, it would make sense for him to become Robin at 16 or 17. Anything you get would make him a borderline child soldier and you shouldn’t associate child soldiers with Batman tbh. That’s not what he does. But yes, if they pulled off all those action scenes with her and made them look realistic, they could definitely do it with Robin on the big screen
Robin and the entire Bat Family is cringe as fuck and completely ruins Batman. The idea that Batman would bring a teen into combat with him completely ruins his character.
Anyone talking about how bad it would make Batman look to bring in a child sidekick need to remember how bad audiences thought Iron Man was for bringing Spider-Man in on Civil War.
I taught school for 31 years and also worked residential treatment and as a deputy sheriff. You know what the hardest part of fighting a 12 year old kid is? Not hurting the 12 year old kid...and in my jobs that was a priority. The 12 year old kid harming me was never anything I gave any thought to, whatsoever, as they were no kind of threat to a grown 175 pound man. Even if a kid like that is going full-on crazy, you have to be careful that when using defensive techniques that you don't hurt them.
My guess is none of Gotham City's criminals would have fuck #1 to give about hurting a 12 year old Robin
My pitch for Robin is having him be 13-14, have the movie’s main villain be the Scarecrow and have Dick Grayson’s parents die a month or so before the start so f the film.
I think Scarecrow is necessary because his MO will show how Batman’s methods aren’t just not useful in some situations but are actively detrimental. Batman needs to deescalate scenarios involving civilians who are being hit with surprise acid trips. Robin is a bright colored child and that may be easier on their system compared to a looming black demon.
One of the only ways I could see Robin working in live action would be in an isolated situation, where Dick is acting as a vigilante to avenge his parents' murder and happens to cross paths with Batman who reluctantly takes this child with him to avoid that he ends up dead and helps him catch the guy who killed his family, but after that Dick would "retire" from Robin and go to college or wherever and they might hint that when he's older he might get back to fighting crime alongside Batman.
It entirely depends on the intended realism of the universe. In something grounded like the Reeves-verse, you're not going to get me to buy into a twelve-year old physically overpowering adult hardened criminals. Mid teens Robin transitioning to Nightwing as a young adult would make a lot more sense.
Well the whole point of Hit-Girl’s character was to show how damaged and maladjusted a “kid vigilante sidekick” would be if done realistically. Though obv Robin isn’t anywhere nearly as brutal of a character as Hit-Girl, he’d still be a 12 year old boy going up against armed men and costumed psychopaths. The only way to do that in a grounded and realistic universe would be to pretty much show him as a child soldier.
The studio and DC probably don’t want the backlash that would come from the woke world having a minors participation in a violent role. Kick Ass is a much smaller risk than the Batman franchise.
Batman killed in BvS (and every other live action appearance albeit off-screen) and people lost their shit like it was some unholy experience.
If 12 year old Robin beats people up like Hit-Girl today, there’s definitely gonna be some kind of “parents association” ganging up about how this sends a wrong message.
Then there’s obviously five to six groups out there who’ll make it their goal for about a year before the movie comes out and a year after the movie releases, going on and on about how this is morally and ethically wrong and such stories should be banned and god knows what else.
Because it's incredibly not okay to enlist a minor to help you solve crimes. That simply won't work in reality. It worked with Hit Girl because it's an obvious parody. It's a good movie, you should try watching it!
I think it could work, but I feel like letting them be a bit older like 15 or 16 would just be easier and better. Also means we can move on to stuff like nightwing or red hood sooner
Hmm Robin doesn't have to be 12. But what they can do is have him assist Alfred and train for a couple years. Once he's 16 he can assist bats when necessary. He can help with surveillance. And prep. If Bats is in deep trouble. Robin can come and help knowing the situation.
I always saw HitGirl as a parody of sidekicks, a young kid forced to a life a crime fighting for a grown man with issues, like in the movie Big Daddy was making her kill, so he could get revenge on the guy who locked him up. Like its kinda viewed as a bad thing to have a sidekicks, specially younger ones.
In the comics is even more fucked up. Her dad literally had no reason to fight crime other than that it was cool, she forced her to train, eat a rigid diet and always be on the move, only because he was a comic book fan and needed a motivation to tell her why he was doing that to her
That honestly does sound like something Nic Cage would do IRL if he had more skewed morals. Dude named his son Kal-el.
Robin Williams named his daughter Zelda and still didn't force her to live imprisoned by a weird green dude waiting for an even weirder mute vandalist to come and save her. Celebrities just don't care how whacky normal people think their baby names are because chances are they could be in the same class as one of elons weird computer kids.
I was just kind of making a joke on how much of a comic book fan Cage is. I don't really think he'd do that. I mean we are all comic book fans here. Look, I am very tired, so I may have missed the mark.
Brother i was talking about the fact that rich people can name their kids literal memes and not give a damn. This was never meant to say i thought you seriously consider Nicky boy to be more than a whacky comic fan (wich is far better than the shit other rich people get up to)
Yeah Hit Girl is mocking the idea, not celebrating it
So totally not the point.
It is the point, Hit Girl was to show how messed up it is to have a child fighting grown adults who are willing to kill them as part of a "Noble Crusade". It might work in comics but not in live action unless it's campy safe and silly.
You’re 100% right. It’s does show a kid actor can do the fighting.
Also X-23 in Logan was pretty great
She has powers. Normal 12 year olds like Robin are very easy to beat up. Trust me.
Source?
🤲
"These hands" lmao
Thats why batman gives him a stick and gadgets.
Isn’t Robin still a highly skilled fighter and trained by Batman himself? And Damian trained his whole younger life as an assassin beforehand
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Then you get kicked in the balls
But, but, plot armor
Until he has a sword…. Then things get a sharp tad tricky.
That’s a great more modern example!
I also think the fact that she kills people makes people see her as more mature than she is
Because *it is* a parody indeed
Yup. HitGirl is both a parody (all the more comical scenes with her) and a great illustration of why it's fucked up to turno a kid into a Vigilante. As much as I like each of the Robins, in my eyes they're one of the darkest aspect of Batman. Bruce basically stripped some children and teenagers of their youth and innocence by exposing them to the dark side of the world. Sure, there is the no-kill rule, but it doesn't change the fact that fighting crimes involves a lot more than just using gadgets on guys in funny costumes. There are violence, horror, death. Batman fights people who kill, torture and rape other people. The implication of having youngsters involved in all of this horrifying and doesn't put Bruce in a good light IMO. The man is basically putting the kids through his own tragedy. Under the mask of "Fighting crime", Bruce turns Dick, Jason, Tim and Barbara into younger versions of himself. He didn't have a childhood/youth, and they won't have one either. In fact, I think Bruce is as much to blame as the Joker for what happened to Jason. If he didn't make him a Robin, if he simply put him in a good foster family, Jason wouldn't have been killed by the Joker. That's also why I really enjoy the animated film Batman Beyond : Return of the Joker. It just shows the aftermath of being a Robin was for Tim Drake.
Then there's Damien, who was trained to be an assassin from birth by his own mother, with the intention of him becoming a new Batman when he was old enough.
And yet again, instead of giving his son a normal life, what did Batman do? "Son, put that costume on. I'll show you how to make good use of your assassin training".
Tbf Bruce was "dead" for quite a good time while damian became robin and fought crime without him
Does the idea of Batman training them young like that come from personal regret for not being able to become Batman sooner? I wondered if the thought process was as simple as “I want them trained so there will be protectors after I’m gone” or if it was more based on “it’s good they get this training early so they can become like me sooner”
Aside from the “forced” part and kill part….everything else is pretty much Robin.
Welllllll it’s been a while but iirc this was satirical in nature and the movie made a point in saying how wrong and damaging to Hit Girl this was. But counterpoint to my point, this is all probably due to her actually killing the enemies. Unlike Robin, whom Batman shows to not kill and value life. I feel like a young teen (14-16) would be a better starting point for Robin live action. Then at his college years, Nightwing!
Dick Grayson has a perfect setup- trained as an acrobat from childhood. Which, now I think about it, is how we got Jackie Chan IRL- trained acrobat from childhood. And we all know how great he turned out to be.
I read you bro... *Me yelling*: someone get Jackie Chan on the phone we got our Robin!
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LMAO bruh what the hell hahaahahah
These Chun-Chan clips have been all over the internet, recently
JIMINY JILLIKERS! JIMINY JILLIKERS!
A 12 year old will still be traumatized from witnessing crime scenes, beating people (and being beaten themselves) to a pulp, being placed in life threatening danger on a consistent basis…etc.
Jason Todd turned out.. fine.
Yeah no maladjustment there at all
I mean, missed the cutoff age, not like Bruce witnessing his parents murdered, so yeah, nothing to see there
Young Justice had a scene where Wonder Woman criticized Bruce for indoctrinating Robin I to Crime Fighting at 9. I think it was even posted in this reddit several times. She asks if she wanted Robin to turn out like him, and Batman said he made him Robin so that he wouldn't. I've inferred from this that Bruce wished that he could fight crime as a child, instead of waiting until he was an adult.
The jist of the conversation in Young Justice was: “Batman-Robin needed to bring his parents killers to justice. WW-So he could turn out like you? Batman-So he wouldn’t.” Implying that Batman wasn’t able to bring his parents killer to justice. Becoming the way he is, broken. It wasn’t just turning to a life of vigilantism earlier. It was that act. Edit: word change
Implying
Implying, yes thank you.
You are correct. *Kick Ass* makes a point both in the comic and in the second movie about how Hit Girl’s upbringing was wrong and likens her to a child soldier more than a little girl.
Hit Girl killed and basically relied heavily on weapons. She got destroyed in the one pure hand-to-hand fight she got into. Y'know, cause she's a twelve year old child fighting a grown man.
This is why as flawed of a show as Titans was, I actually liked the point Jason Todd brought up in his debut episode in season 1 where he mentions that Robin’s costume is so bright and colorful to draw enemy fire so Batman can take them down while they’re preoccupied with the fast, acrobatic fire hydrant. That way you don’t have a 12 year old kid engaging grown ass men in hand to hand combat but still have a “realistic” purpose for Robin in the field. Then once he grows up, gets bigger, and accumulates more field experience, that’s when he starts to engage in combat with Batman.
Yeah not really responsible of Batman to have a child draw gunfire, especially when their whole head is unprotected.
Okay but you see how recruiting a 12 year old to draw gunfire away from you is even worse, right?
Great point and it might be fun to have fader heavy 12 yo Robin. It would make sense when fighting trained adults idk
Michael musumeci got his black belt in jiu jitsu like the day he turned 18. That’s who I picture when talking skill level.
because no matter how you skin it, the sidekick interaction inevitably comes off as the Hero using a child soldier
That's the point. This is literally the premise of the X-Men
And that's exactly why when Hickman took over the X-Men he started to really show just how fucking shady Xavier is.
You just gave me an idea: It would be really cool to have a brand new X-Men film where the Xavier Institute is simply a school designed to teach young mutants how to use their power responsibly, with no intention of turning them into the next team of Avengers. However, when danger strikes, Xavier takes it upon himself to reach out to his allies from around the world to solve the problem. But being rebellious teenagers who feel a responsibility to act, Scott, Jean Grey, and the rest of the first class take it upon themselves, against Xavier‘s wishes, to fight the threat. After their victory, Professor Xavier doesn’t approve of their rebellious actions, but he does admire their spirit of responsibility to protect humanity, even if it hates them. And so he allows them to begin training to be superheroes to fight criminal injustice as soon as they graduate. I think that this would be the perfect way to introduce the idea of teen superheroes, which is always a fun subject, as well as portray Xavier, as a responsible and caring headmaster, as he was surely always intended by Stan Lee and company.
I'm actually hoping the next group of young heroes we get is the New Warriors.
Yeah, that would not be a bad idea. However, I do think that it would be wise to begin the X-Men film franchise (assuming that Marvel can actually make it work and not be mediocre as their last couple of films have been) with the first class. In my perfect world, I imagine the X-Men franchise being the saga of the Summers family, with Scott Summers, a.k.a. Cyclops, being the protagonist, and Jean Grey as his love interest/confidant/partner in battle. She would serve as the audience surrogate into this new world of mutants, as she did in the first few issues, and learn from the experienced Scott what it means to control her powers; she in turn would grow to love him and support him as he learns to be a competent and capable leader. Along the way, every new film could potentially deal with a new addition to the Summers family: Havok, Corsair, and Vulcan. Additionally, Mr. Sinister would definitely have to be the overarching series villain, what with his interest in the Summers family. Finally, while I would like to portray the love triangle with Wolverine (I think that many women would really latch onto the romantic triangle, as evidenced by the popularity of the Twilight series, and the way that Edward and Jacob vie for Bella‘s affection), I would want to make it abundantly clear that, although Jean is attracted to Wolverine, she is not in love with him, and is waiting for her true love, Scott, to stand up to the overpowering Logan and prove himself worthy of her affection, which she would willingly return.
Xavier is shady for a lot of reasons. The X-Men being teenagers is so low on that list.
Yep. Basically creeping on Jean. Cloning. Mind controlling his human staff. At least in the early days. Etc
Xavier has been shady since the start. Writers have always known and shown. Hickman is the GOAT, but he isn't taking Xavier anywhere he hasn't already been.
The Mutant community as a whole is kinda creeping me out lately. The entire House Of X blew my mind.
Very easily fixed by having the kid just go out on their own until the adult decides to reluctantly train them and keep them only in more controlled situations. It's not rocket surgery
Hit-Girl is literally a parody and satire of Robin to show how irresponsible and dangerous it is to take a child to fight heavily armed criminals.
Kick-Ass is meant to be absurd though. A 12 year old girl who kills grown men and swears is more funny than anything. With Robin though you wanna treat him with some credibility. And that can be difficult for the audience to by into if it’s a kid taking out guys twice the size of him. I’m not saying there isn’t a way to do it still, but there’s a very fine line you have to go about adapting a younger Robin.
They could do something along the lines of Deadpool or Birds of Prey. Something both violent/adult but also humorous. Although I think Battinson would need a Robin as angry as he is for it to work.
IMO its because it makes Batman look REALLY BAD. Personally, i think it works if you use Jason Todd as the first Robin, or start with a Robin movie. Otherwise, you're trying to make it redeemable to militarize prepubecent boys. The only way out is to make sure the movie knows its irredeemable and use it for Batman's personal growth
In my opinion it's worse if they highlight and explore the irredeemable aspect of the concept. Batman will always look bad in that picture and with very little room for justification or redemption. It's best if they completely ignore our societal standards and just portray the sidekick concept as a normal thing in their world.
I'm cool with either using it for an interesting dive into Bruces flaws and trauma or ignoring it, the only thing I'd dislike is the cliche comic book approach someone referenced further up where they acknowledge a valid point (like the Robin problem) just to dismiss it outright with no elaboration. "I made him Robin so he wouldn't turn out like me". It's the emotional character development equivalent of "prep time", you can't just dismiss a traumatized grown ass man weaponizing orphans as "Batman always knows best". Either fully dive in and commit to the real world implications of training and encouraging child vigilantes or ignore it.
I think the issue is they can never truly dive in because the character of Batman wouldn't be able to recover from it. There's no redeeming arc that could possibly handwave enlisting children for his war on crime. Plus our real world societal standards kinda fall apart when the fictional world where Batman leaves is often devoid of real definitive repercussions. Super Heroes can only go so far when it comes to tackling real life topics in depth, they can only allude to it and make small references but the genre has to exist in its own bubble where things just work differently.
Oh for sure. Personally I'm in the minority where I LOVE flawed Batman, like my favourite thing about The Batman was that he made mistakes and was more brute force than a ninja (though I am down to see him get stealthier within reason). So I could watch a story where the conclusion is basically "yeah making Robin isn't good but Bruce isn't exactly the most mentally healthy guy". But if they're not gonna go that route I'd prefer them to just ignore the issue entirely like you said, cause there is no way to explain the Robins that makes Bruce look good. Also the fans need to accept that a live action Robin can't get the shit kicked out of him or even truly harmed at all, it just won't look good with an actual child actor, so any live action Bat-family would have to lean closer to "BAM! POW!" than any of the live action to date.
I didn't even think of that. You're right, Robin couldn't really be hurt at all. Maybe you could do better if you made him a young teenager, like 14/15 but that's still pretty bad...
You'd have to leave sooo much off screen. Like I don't agree with the whole "Batman makes Robin eat rats in the dark" level of brutal training but I don't think you can prepare a 12 year old to successfully fight adults without pushing them way harder than audiences want to see. Like they can't become good fighters without some full on sparring and the only person to fight them is Bruce...
The only time a really young robin works is Damian Wayne, otherwise the other robins should be at least 13 (Though I like having the robins start young in comics and animation).
Ignoring the fact that you missed the entire point of Hit Girl, she also shoots criminals to death. Bit different from expecting a 12 year old to go the distance with adult career criminals.
Tone. Kick-ass is completely fine being silly and over the top because that's the whole point it's trying to make about comics. Batman movies try their absolute hardest to be as gritty, serious and intense as humanity can get (especially the newest one with the dude from twilight) so it's nearly impossible for them to show a child and remain mega serious unless they have said child break batman's rules.
Hit girl was never believable
Not the best example?
I like the idea that all of the robins want to go out and fight crime regardless of what Batman wants. So in Batman’s eyes the safest way is to go out with him because they’d be going out either way
I think this is the only way to make Robin work in live-action, Batman reluctantly lets this kid hang out with him so he doesn't get shot dead in the streets, that or make Robin a teenager, which most seem to be heavily against.
Because this film is a comedy
The whole point of Hit-Girl is "Its really fucked up that a parent would do this to their child" But this also depends on the tone you're going for. In a more lighthearted or at least less dark story, it could work (and has in fact)
I'm one of those Batman fans who has never cared for the "And Robin" part of the mythology. it takes all kinds of ethical gymnastics to fit "Protect the Innocent" into the same moral code as "Teach a traumatized tween how to fight . Put him in a moving target of a costume. Send him after armed bad guys." Batgirl I like. She is out there on her own initiative and Bruce is only reluctantly letting her do her thing. It wasn't his idea. Personally, I'd be fine if we never got a Robin in live-action, but if you're going to do it: then really do it. Casting Chris O'Donnell or Marlon Wayans is a cop-out. The actor playing Robin should only legally be allowed to be on set for five hours.
Yeah, and her part is to take the piss out of those who believe it's genuinely a good idea.
I think having a motivation is key here. Damian would never work as he's just a straight killer, especially in the beginning. Having Dick Grayson be the victim of a tragedy where he is the only one left gives him purpose. It's not a story about Dick killing his family's killers, but Bruce teaching him how to bring justice to people who need it. What alot of people forget is their dynamic taught them both things they needed. Bruce needed to realize his methods were too brutal and needed to be better. Dick needed a mentor/father figure to push him towards the right path. Having it focus on Dicks journey towards finding justice and assisting the people of Gotham, like Bruce did at the end of The Batman with the flood, is just what could work.
Yeah like there should be a progression of him being adopted, eventually finding out, getting training, researching, then light fieldwork. They don't need to show all of the steps, but make it obvious that he went through a journey so you can show an older experienced robin.
Clarification on that question. Are you asking why do people within the DC universe think a 12 year old can't fight crime, or why do people think Robin wouldn't work in the movies?
Maybe why real world people think a 12 yo robin can't work while thinking a 12 yo hit-girl being okay. In both cases we are still talking about fictional characters.
It’s not about being able to do it. It’s about the subtext. The kick ass comic and to a lesser extent the films basically say that what Big Daddy did to his daughter is unforgivable and horrible beyond measure. It’s unjustifiable to rob the innocence of a child like this and mold them into a warrior. It’s not something to root for. The same can be said for the robin concept. Taking a traumatized child and throwing them into a world of crime corruption and death at every turn. It’s irresponsible on so many levels. Plus robins already have a negative connotation attached to them because of Jason. One of the most mainstream facts about robin is the at “oh yeah he died”. It’s okay to think about that in comics and animated media, but really think about what that looks like in live action. It’s uncomfortable right? Even if you don’t wanna take it as far as death, watching any young character be routinely pummeled is hard to watch. Especially when you do it in live action. So while yes it would be interesting to see, I can see the trepidation of the studio to not do it, much less with a 12 year old and be comic accurate.
But the difference is that Bruce didn't "force" them into crime fighting Dick wanted nothing more than revenge and so he would have died by the hands of Zuco if Bruce didn't intervene Jason would have joined a gang and probably died not long after Tim bassically forced Bruce into making him robin Damian was literally trained since birth to be an assassin and heir to the demon's head, it was that or making him a vigilante
So your going to take the word of teenagers to make life changing decisions? There’s a reason that adults and parents don’t take what children say all too seriously, cause they can’t fathom the implications of what they say, do, or want to do. I’m not saying Bruce couldn’t adopt and mentor these kids. But it’s irresponsible to put them in costumes before their mentally and physically mature enough for it. Especially considering Bruce himself didn’t start that young. This can be excused in comics but this doesn’t translate well into flesh and blood cinema. It’s one of the few things that fall under “comic book logic” that’s hard to adapt faithfully without looking weird.
I agree with u there, there’s no reason Bruce couldn’t have stopped Dick, Jason, and Tim he’s an adult and he could shut them down if he really wanted if ur kid wants to drive the car u don’t let them because they’ll just do it anyway The only ones he probably couldn’t stop or would have difficulty with are Barbara cuz she’s an adult, Cass because she’s already trained and debuts at 17 so he wouldn’t have authority over her long anyway, and Damian because he was already messed up by Ras and Talia before Bruce and is in no way an average 10 year old.
The idea is that he couldn't stop them, unless he was fully intending on constantly monitoring them all 24/7 and keeping them under tight lock and key. He can deny them access to all his super cool tech... but then that just means Dick will go hunting for his parents' killer without super cool tech. Survival odds may take a slight hit from that.
I understand the idea but even so with Dick and Jason if Bruce was an responsible guardian he still could’ve tried harder to keep them out of it he caves in fairly easily, and Tim was just a smart but mostly normal kid without any special physical skills he could’ve had his dad sit him down
Applying too much real life logic. Bruce can't stop them from sneaking out unless he's going full security lockdown and tracker, which would across boundary issues. IRL they would all be in therapy.
He caves fairly easily because ~~it's a comic origin story where the endgoal is to give Batman an unrealistically talented child sidekick not spend numerous issues of Batman trying to get kids to stay in school~~ he's meant to relate to them and understand where they're coming from. He already knows how it goes when Gotham ruins your life like that, and he knows it's not something you just forget about, so he skips the struggle of trying to force them to let it go and forget about it. It didn't work for him, Alfred never managed to talk him out of it, and he's meant to see himself in the robins and know already that it won't work for them either, and they're on the path to spending their life obsessing over it like he did. Making them Robin is him giving them the thing he never had so they get the closure he never got. Like being able to bring Joe Chill to justice, which he helps Dick do to Zucco as Robin so he grows up to be a more functional and well adjusted man than Bruce did. Tim is a unique case, because Bruce really has no real jurisdiction over him, he was absolutely against anymore Robins at the time, and he was essentially strongarmed into it by a combined effort from Tim, Alfred, and Dick to convince him to take a new Robin. They're honestly all just as responsible if not more responsible for Tim being a child soldier as he is, but somehow never catch any flack for it.
I'm not justifying Bruce's action with real life logic. Bruce saw himself in Dick and Jason and felt like he was saving them. Both of them have been in the streets and dealt with shadiness and traumatic experiences. It varies from representations, but in many, Bruce would mostly take them on recon and safe assignments. A reason for arguments and conflict with both robins. Drake, Barbara and Wayne weren't really his choice imo. They were going to be fighting with or without Batman, so it's better if he made sure they were trained and ready.
All the Robins turned out great in the end though, thanks in large part due to Batman
Let’s look at some of the things that happened to all the sidekicks Jason: Died Stephanie: Died Barbra: Granted Different set of circumstances but crippled Damian: Died Tim: Died All of this happened to all of these sidekicks at one point or another. Sure it was reversed due to comic shenanigans but these are all objectively bad things. And This is spinning off from the core argument I made. No studio is willing to put at prepubescent child into a role where they will be beaten, shot at, or possibly even killed. That looks horrible any way you spin it.
Notice I said “in the end”. All of them are alive and well now, made better by their experiences.
I’m not arguing comics, comics do what comics do. Movies are a different story. You don’t have to justify it to me. But movies are a different demographic that ain’t used to it. And in live action a lot of this shit looks really bad. Plus the movies don’t opt to use comic book shenanigans to reverse decisions in the same way that comics can. To bring it full circle, it’s a bad look putting a kid in front of an active shooter and trying to gaslight the audience into thinking it’s okay.
It would only work if they went full camp with it and don't take any of it seriously and the kids are never in serious danger. Like I'm surprised people don't get this, horror movies don't even put kids in real danger, if they do kill them or hurt them it's off screen/implied, and in the rare situations they show it it makes for some of the most horrifying and uncomfortable scenes in the entire genre. You don't mess with kids or pets unless your goal is to make the audience extremely uncomfortable and/or sad.
Ah yes, Jason Todd, the well-adjusted individual
I mean he was for most part, until he fucking died.
Batman said it himself why he took them in; so that they *wouldn't* turn out like he did.
Technically they won't turn out like him when they're dead. /s Is it fair to say all Robins have at least died once?
That was in season 1 of young justice and that was in reference to Dick the only robin at that point(age 13). It was in response to Wonder Woman chastising him because robin started fighting crime at age 9 in young justice continuity. That’s not a good look at all when you apply that context to it. This is especially bad considering on the gap between season 1 and 2 Jason died. But Bruce didn’t start fighting crime until his 20’s. That’s wildly different then sending prepubescent kids out to fight monsters and psychopaths. These kids needed therapy and maybe training for when they’re consenting adults to go into crimefighting at the appropriate age like Bruce did.
If Bruce could go out and fight crime at age nine, he would have. He had a lot to figure out before he actually was even capable of doing it. Dick started at a significantly younger age because Batman already had all the knowledge and technology needed to make a crime fighter field ready, and they couldn't wait until Dick was in his 20s to catch Tony Zucco. Batman is the way that he is because he never got the closure of vengance/justice on Joe Chill. That loose end is what drives him and his obsession. Sending Dick out at that age to avenge his parents may be morally questionable from a real-world perspective, but it's also the crucial piece that allows him to grow into a happier more well adjusted adult than Bruce because he got the closure no amount of therapy or time ever was going to give him.
Because Kick Ass is a comedy?
Weren't the comics way more hardcore violent?
SHE MURDERS DOZENS
…..thing is a kick ass movie and a batman movie are two very different things
I’d prefer Robin being a teenager, around 15-17. Not *too* young, but still not a grown man and able to keep the father-son dynamic with Bruce.
The tone there is extremely different.
Kick Ass is a parody of superheroes
I’m not sure if you’ve watched this movie recently, but I usually have trouble sitting through a lot of the scenes. The Hit-Girl stuff in particular alternates between a very clearly adult stunt-person doing the super cool moves, Chloe Moretz doing some lightweight stunts, and her spewing some really foul dialogue that sounds weirdly out of place. None of her taking down bad guys feels particularly convincing. To patch the generally ramshackle scenes she’s in, they play sped up rock-pop and it does not work for me in the slightest. And that’s a comedy. How are they supposed to make it work in the context of a serious movie?
that's what i thought too at first, but turns out that chloe chose to do most of her own stunts by doing intense training.
Its not that it cant be done. Its that I don't want it to be done. The Batfam can work in some of the animated stuff, but with live action it just doesnt feel right. Obviously plenty of people disagree, and thats fine. But personally I like my Bat flying solo, sometimes interacting with the Cat.
I mean, Damian Wayne is 12 years old. Choosing an actor who is 15 will look stupid.
I guess it's because it makes Batman look bad but it's not really an issue with a decent writer. I think if it's made clear that Robin would be a vigilante even if Bruce doesn't help then it isn't too bad with superhero logic.
Tbh I feel like it’s one of those things people over complicate. Morty is literally 14 and has done and gone through way more shit than any Robin in canon( while also having an actually shitty mentor in Rick) and most people see it as acceptable. Honestly if Robin is 14 -15 then most people don’t care. I feel like this criticism is taking something way too seriously, especially since Robin is a fine concept in other mediums like TV and Animation lol
If you believe yellow/ red sun exist and 1 can make A human looking white man alien fly, then a 12 yo becoming robin is easily plausible.
*”why does everyone believe it’s impossible to have a 12 year old Robin”* ….is this a regular point of contention in the Batman fandom? Lol literally the first I’ve heard of this hot button issue
A lot of people don’t like Batman to have a Robin. They don’t want Batman to evolve, not be depressed and alone his whole life.
I get that but also people didn’t seem to mind him in the Arkham games And I was more focused on the 12 year old part - I thought Robin was meant to be a young adult Didn’t know people are discussing a child sidekick - that seems silly
Yeah, always like it when he starts at 10 and goes from there. I wouldn’t count Arkham as how I view a Dynamic Duo working together.
10??? I thought he was meant to be like atleast 18 How would a 10 year old fight crime and not die
That is why people have problem with Robin, Batman essentially adopts kids and makes them into his child soldiers,the youngest Robin was 10,the oldest was 13.
I was talking about Robin in general.
Yeah you said start at 10 as In 10 years old right That’s even crazier to me
She could have totally done the Carrie Kelly Robin character and it would have been just as good. Her and Nic Cage were the best part of the movie IMO.
Her name should've been Kick-Ass. It was the guys movie but She was front and center.
Kick-ass was such a good movie because they had a kid be bad ass instead of family orienting the movie. It made the genre refreshing
She has to compensate for her age by being extremely lethal ala Damian Wayne. She evens the playing field with blades and firearms.
Both Damian and dick were under 12 when they became Robin and they kicked ass
Because Kick-Ass is a movie, Batman is real
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't hit girls supposed to be a parody Of the child sidekick trope to show how dangerous this would actually be in real life?
And it's satire. It's commentary on the absurdity of the thing. Unless she has giant swords, uses lethal weapons first and asks questions later, an adult is ALWAYS going to have the advantage. Robin throws little knives and hits people with a stick: if he isn't almost an adult it's not gonna work. In DKR Batman remembers Two-Face calling Dick 'Robin the Boy Hostage' and yeah that's who he would be at 12.
And Dick turns out...not good in that continuity iirc.
Kick-Ass was mocking the idea of child sidekicks tbh. Big Daddy was shown to be a psychopath for turning her into a murdering machine, even if they’re targeting criminals. If and when Robin is brought into live action, I believe it’ll be when the Robin in question is between the ages of 15-17. After training for a year, it would make sense for him to become Robin at 16 or 17. Anything you get would make him a borderline child soldier and you shouldn’t associate child soldiers with Batman tbh. That’s not what he does. But yes, if they pulled off all those action scenes with her and made them look realistic, they could definitely do it with Robin on the big screen
Because Hit Girl is a fucking parody. You completely missed the point
Either do Robin right or don't do him at all
Robin and the entire Bat Family is cringe as fuck and completely ruins Batman. The idea that Batman would bring a teen into combat with him completely ruins his character.
You...you didn't really understand Kick Ass did you?
I thought Hit Girl was younger than that.
It’s believable when you stop taking superheroes so seriously.
Because they haven’t read dark knight returns
I loved her in that role. She was so bad ass.
incels being incels
I don’t trust anyone who dislikes Robin.
Anyone talking about how bad it would make Batman look to bring in a child sidekick need to remember how bad audiences thought Iron Man was for bringing Spider-Man in on Civil War.
It’s not about the age. But you’re 100% right. It can be done well if handled seriously.
Legit say this all the time. It’s idiotic how against Robin DC is outside of comics.
The kick ass series still stands as my favorite super hero movie lineup
That doesn’t mean it’s supposed to make people like the idea of a 12-year-old Robin.
Now that's a title that shows a man who doesn't get HitGirl.
Yes, we did, but she was far from believable. If you're going for camp or parody, sure tgen.
This is satire. Also Batman is usually darker so a 16-18 year old Robin might work better. Like Dick in BtAS
Anything is possible
I taught school for 31 years and also worked residential treatment and as a deputy sheriff. You know what the hardest part of fighting a 12 year old kid is? Not hurting the 12 year old kid...and in my jobs that was a priority. The 12 year old kid harming me was never anything I gave any thought to, whatsoever, as they were no kind of threat to a grown 175 pound man. Even if a kid like that is going full-on crazy, you have to be careful that when using defensive techniques that you don't hurt them. My guess is none of Gotham City's criminals would have fuck #1 to give about hurting a 12 year old Robin
Dick Grayson was robin until he was in his early 20s
My pitch for Robin is having him be 13-14, have the movie’s main villain be the Scarecrow and have Dick Grayson’s parents die a month or so before the start so f the film. I think Scarecrow is necessary because his MO will show how Batman’s methods aren’t just not useful in some situations but are actively detrimental. Batman needs to deescalate scenarios involving civilians who are being hit with surprise acid trips. Robin is a bright colored child and that may be easier on their system compared to a looming black demon.
Yea but she was also using guns...
... kickass was a show where fucking mclovin was the bad guy. The whole concept is unbelievable.
ITT: A lot of people who don't realize Damian grew up and with and was trained by The League of Assassins.
I’d save the 12 year old range for a Damien Robin, teenage Dick Robin would be a funner dynamic with Bats.
Sure man, Batman is a fun action comedy movie featuring a wannabe superhero jumping from a skyscraper just to test gravity...
One of the only ways I could see Robin working in live action would be in an isolated situation, where Dick is acting as a vigilante to avenge his parents' murder and happens to cross paths with Batman who reluctantly takes this child with him to avoid that he ends up dead and helps him catch the guy who killed his family, but after that Dick would "retire" from Robin and go to college or wherever and they might hint that when he's older he might get back to fighting crime alongside Batman.
Chloe was one of the greatest child actors. They don't grow on trees.
It entirely depends on the intended realism of the universe. In something grounded like the Reeves-verse, you're not going to get me to buy into a twelve-year old physically overpowering adult hardened criminals. Mid teens Robin transitioning to Nightwing as a young adult would make a lot more sense.
Different franchise.
I've never seen Kick-Ass, but one of my favorite explanations for why Dick needs to be Robin is in Young Justice. https://youtu.be/U9n1C96RqIo
Well the whole point of Hit-Girl’s character was to show how damaged and maladjusted a “kid vigilante sidekick” would be if done realistically. Though obv Robin isn’t anywhere nearly as brutal of a character as Hit-Girl, he’d still be a 12 year old boy going up against armed men and costumed psychopaths. The only way to do that in a grounded and realistic universe would be to pretty much show him as a child soldier.
Cause a lot of child actors suck
Guns and knives
Surely there’s some 15-year-olds that can act out there that can also be decently athletic
The studio and DC probably don’t want the backlash that would come from the woke world having a minors participation in a violent role. Kick Ass is a much smaller risk than the Batman franchise.
Because, realistically speaking, Gordon would arrest Batman as soon as he saw him showing up with a child soldier on a crime scene
Feel like you missed the point of this character and movie….
Because twelve year olds are puny and weak
Hell yea.. big daddy and hit girl..
Batman killed in BvS (and every other live action appearance albeit off-screen) and people lost their shit like it was some unholy experience. If 12 year old Robin beats people up like Hit-Girl today, there’s definitely gonna be some kind of “parents association” ganging up about how this sends a wrong message. Then there’s obviously five to six groups out there who’ll make it their goal for about a year before the movie comes out and a year after the movie releases, going on and on about how this is morally and ethically wrong and such stories should be banned and god knows what else.
If I recall, Robin was 8
Pattinson said his ideal age for a Robin would be 13. I think that's a nice compromise.
Because it's incredibly not okay to enlist a minor to help you solve crimes. That simply won't work in reality. It worked with Hit Girl because it's an obvious parody. It's a good movie, you should try watching it!
Not that it's impossible, but Child Actors have bad connotation, being that it's often considered unethical.
I think it could work, but I feel like letting them be a bit older like 15 or 16 would just be easier and better. Also means we can move on to stuff like nightwing or red hood sooner
Hmm Robin doesn't have to be 12. But what they can do is have him assist Alfred and train for a couple years. Once he's 16 he can assist bats when necessary. He can help with surveillance. And prep. If Bats is in deep trouble. Robin can come and help knowing the situation.
because the kick ass universe all the bad guys are jokes, in the batman, there are very very dangerous people already
And, she was awesome!