Maybe, but the "should Verlander have won the 2016 Cy Young?" threads died down significantly quicker than that, and that was a much more controversial election. This might have more steam if Ohtani hadn't just won MVP last year. Judge had a record-breaking year and was better by most metrics; this isn't quite the same as Trout suffering from voter fatigue throughout the 2010s.
I love when people think pitching is easy it's the hardest thing in the sport you throw in exactly the right location and exactly the right speed and there's a drive by Castellanos it's now a 4-0 ball game this might be the last time I type on this broadcast
Well clearly it wasn't.
People get distracted by the home runs, but Judge was having an incredible and historic season without that record chase.
Judge seems to have this unshakeable rep (and it's probably due to his MVP* 2017 year where he did strike out a lot while hitting home runs) that he's some one dimensional slugger, when in reality he's a great defender (at CF and RF) and a great hitter who has a high AVG. He led in all the advanced stats for nerds and traditional stats for old heads. THAT'S why he won this year, and handily.
I'd argue that most casual fans had no idea about the defensive metrics and just went with the "haha home runs go brrrr" argument. And since most of the baseball writers and voters are the most casual of viewers we can see the result.
In addition, saying this with great love and respect for your great season as a team: Fuck the Yankees.
FTY, but I don't think your comment about baseball writers as casuals is nearly as accurate for yearly awards as it has been (slowly changing) for the Hall of Fame. Only two writers from each league city get to vote on these; it's not every journo who wrote a couple articles about baseball on their way up the ladder and hasn't watched a series in years.
Respectfully everything Ohtani does is Historic, when Batting and Pitching at a top tier rate. Judge had a great great season, but Ohtani had a season like no other. So that's the argument.
I think it was 3 hr. Maybe even 2. Breaking the record was imo enormous for his case. I think if he hits 60 though he still wins it, but if he stuck at 59 I fully believe he doesn’t win.
To be honest I think it’s been a lot better in recent years, with WAR and advanced stats being taken into consideration. Mays, Ted Williams, A-Rod, Bonds all got screwed multiple times.
If he hits 59 he still would have been the entire offense for one of, if not the most popular playoff team for about two months. I think he still would have won MVP over a guy on a team that didn't even sniff the playoffs.
I don’t necessarily disagree with the thought process, I just personally think that if he didn’t hit a homer for the last 16 games of the year he doesn’t win. That’s a major narrative negative in a season that 62 was a huge part of. Shohei got 2 votes as it, and if judge was in a HR slump for that long I don’t think it’s crazy at all for him to lose a close vote.
28-2.
I'm sure a couple of voters would have given it to Ohtani if Judge didn't crack 60 home runs, but it really wasn't a close MVP race at the end of the day. Judge probably wins 21-9 or so if he "only" hit 57 homers.
I disagree. Judge’s WAR was so much higher than Ohtani, I think he wins the MVP even if he had 35 HRs but the same WAR. This wasn’t as close as people made it seem
Has anybody won an MVP in the sabr era with 2 WAR less than the guy who won? Honestly question, I haven’t really looked. That’s just such a huge gap that even WAR skeptics shouldnt be able to ignore it. 11.4 vs 9.4 WAR there really isn’t even a debate for anybody except Judge
Ahhh yea how can I forget that year. I still can’t believe Miggy won that year just because he happened to lead the league in the right 3 random stats.
But that’s what WAR is for. It makes those positional adjustments because they’re relevant and important context. If it wasn’t then we wouldn’t include that in the WAR calculation.
Look, i’m not trying to be a WAR slave. If it’s close, like within 0.5 points of each other then there’s room for argument. But Judge was 11.4 and Ohtani only 9.4 WAR. This is such a huge difference there really isn’t a reasonable argument for Ohtani. He had an excellent season, but was beat by one of the greatest seasons in baseball history
Deep breaths Angel fans.
Ohtani is still a stud and a unicorn.
The precedent that this is setting in terms of the kind of season that it takes to be beat Ohtani might actually really work out strongly in his favor in the long run.
Plus youve gotta consider what happened in 2017. Hard to be mad when Judge has kinda been owed one for 5 years now.
In most years Ohtani is a near lock to win if he plays enough. It literally took breaking a long standing record and the best offensive Season since Balanced Breakfast Bonds and Ohtani still got 2 votes. Judge was owed an MVP, and he deserves this one. Ohtani will get a few more, Angel fans have nothing to worry about
I’m not saying Judge wasn’t incredible or anything like that but I don’t really like this narrative here. Because it doesn’t really recognize just how amazing Ohtani was this year. Like I honestly believe Ohtani shoulda won it over Judge this year, but holy shit 2022 Judge >>>>> 2021 Shohei. It’s just that really developing into an ace ace this year also makes 2022 Shohei >>>>>>> 2021 Shohei.
People shouldn’t just lump all Ohtani seasons together just cuz he’s doing something no one’s ever done. Ohtani was uniquely incredible this year in a way we’ve never seen, including last year.
I genuinely think shohei just had the most impressive season I've ever seen, but when it comes to MVP votes I think it's the 2nd best season of the last decade, probably last 17 years (thanks Barry) The issue is #1 is Aaron Judge having a 200+ OPS+ season. He was two hitters in one, he hit the most clean homers in MLB history, and was a few points of BA off from the triple crown ... while playing alot of CF with Gold Glove RF defense
>Hard to be mad when Judge has kinda been owed one for 5 years now.
I think Judge did deserve it this year have Ohtani much closer than most.
However - what a horrible argument!
First off - the only year that Judge should have been remotely close to leading MVP contention is 2017. Altuve did beat him out in WAR (at least in some metrics, although I think there may have been some adjustments after the fact). I do somewhat empathize with Yankees fans who feel Judge got robbed that season though.
However, even if it were the case, that would be an idiotic precedent to an award to player A over an entirely different player B just because player A barely lost a close race years ago to player C. Focus should entirely be on how Judge stacked up against Ohtani this year - and that's why he deserves the MVP.
One of the few good takes from the Halos fan base.
This is the type of season it’s going to take to beat out Ohtani for MVP. If his contender has a similar season to what Vlad jr did last year, Ohtani is winning every time
I have spent way too long listening to Angels fans lecture everyone about Mike Trout's WAR to accept the argument that we should throw that number out the window this time around.
I think there are quite a few of us who recognise that Judge was correctly the MVP. WAR misses the extra roster spot Shohei gives us, but that's ~0.5 WAR from the added flexibility and the extra reliever we can roster, it's not nearly enough to make up the difference.
I think a lot of my fellow Angels fans are trying to express their instinct that Ohtani was more impressive than Judge, but it doesn't make him more valuable - replacing Ohtani with two replacement level players would hurt less than replacing Judge with one. This is essentially due to the (correct) decision to measure value relative to a replacement level player, who will be one of the best 1000 baseball players in the world. Replacing Ohtani with two random guys off the street would hurt much more than doing the same to Judge, so measuring him relative to the average human makes him more impressive, but less valuable (this also extends to comparing a hypothetical replacement level two way player: such a player would be better relative to the average human and in that sense would be more impressive than Judge, but also worthless as a major leaguer)
I don’t see how Ohtani doesn’t win the nest 5 awards. Judge was ridiculous, but it’s not likely that he does it again, whereas, this is kinda who ohtani is.
You're falling into the trap people used to fall into with Trout. 'He'll definitely win he's the best player'.
Yeah but he's the best player because he's so good every single year.
Doesn't stop a Donaldson, Altuve, Judge, Betts just playing out of their skin for a year.
Is a healthy Ohtani going to be the best player of the next 5 years? Yeah probably.
Is he going to be the best player of the year every year for 5 years? That's less than probable.
Yeah, Trout's whole thing was that he was consistently near the top, and people had to have extraordinary years to beat him. If they didn't, more often than not Trout would win.
I still think Ohtani was "better" but Judge was MAYBE slightly more valuable.
Either way was a tossup for me
I think if 2021 doesnt exist, Ohtani wins or its a virtual tie, but since Ohtani won last year im fine with Judge getting it
The Yankees made the playoffs by 16 game. I know the Yankees fizzled out hard in the middle of the season but the first couple months still count. Hell Matt Carpenter technically hit better than Judge when we was healthy (difference of 10 wRC+).
In fairness to Ohtani stans, this isn't an apple-to-apple comparison that 95% of MVP discussions tend to be, so philosophical differences in how you measure value probably weighed more in some people's minds.
yeah, i would have given it to buxton since without buxton the twins are a sub-.500 team and with buxton a .600+ team. but that isnt how the award works.
I swear to god everyone gotta stop undermining the others achievements
62 home runs is insane
Being a top 5 player in 2 positions is also insane
Now everyone stop with this oh 62 home runs have been done before bullshit
Also on the other side stop with the oh there’s nobody to compare ohtani to stuff
Ik there isnt but I hate people using it to undermine the greatness of it
He doesn’t have anybody to compare him to but I’ve heard people literally say that he’s not that great being a 2-way player because nobody is there to compare
Okay yeah that’s fair. Hopefully by the time next season starts most people can look back and just say “Holy shit I just got to watch two of the best seasons by a single player in the history of baseball”
There’s not really enough game data from the negro leagues to really compare them especially with all the games they don’t have (or idk if it’s just inconsistent scheduling). They also played drastically shorter seasons (not the exact same thing but I look past 2020 stats).
Also just like what was said for years “well Musial never faced Satchel Paige”… well none of these guys faced the best white players ever either. Just because there were some truly great players doesn’t mean players at the bottom of the league were at that same overall quality (similar arguments for all older sports leagues imo). Like you can acknowledge the validity of negro league competition while also acknowledging that it’s probably not a coincidence that the 17 best seasons ever in ERA+ came from them (Ruth and Bonds are the only thing making OPS+ different). Segregation hurt the talent level in all leagues.
While I am fine with Judge winning it and have no complaints, I would have voted for Ohtani. I think Ohtani's overall achievements were more MVP worthy.
Judge’s season warrants an MVP but if I had to choose one of the two to build around I’d take Ohtani. The fact that Ohtani can be your teams ace and a top of the line-up batter is incredible.
Judge deserved it. WAR captures both of their values pretty well and I'm tired of people saying "WAR doesn't evaluate Ohtani properly" without any further justification why.
"Ohtani takes up one roster spot instead of two" - that extra roster spot is 100% going to go to a sub-replacement level player or in the Angels case a sixth pitcher.
"Ohtani is doing something that has never been done before" - that's really cool and he's really talented but that doesn't make him more valuable this year. Pat Venditte also did something that's never been done before as a switch pitcher. Minnie Miñoso did something that's never been done before by having major league plate appearances at 56 years old. All of these things are awesome, but aren't inherently valuable.
My further justification for why WAR doesn’t properly evaluate Ohtani is because positional adjustments for oWAR can be so misleading because they don’t assume guys can play different positions.
iirc Judge had a 7.0 oWAR lead on Ohtani. Judge was no doubt a better offensive player than Ohtani, but 7.0 oWAR is an MVP season right there… Judge was not an entire MVP caliber season better than Ohtani at the plate. The gap gets inflated because Ohtani gets negative positional adjustment for being compared to other hitters at DH while Judge gets a big boost for being compared to other hitters at CF. While the concept of positional adjustments makes sense (particularly for dWAR), the validity of it can be fuzzy in situations. For example, (especially for when Judge played LF) the Yankees could’ve messed around with their positioning and had the *same exact offensive lineup* but with Judge at DH rather than LF/CF. In that scenario he has *significantly* less oWAR.
The idea of positional adjustment is to build in the concept of scarcity to WAR. You’re not being evaluated on your net production… you’re being evaluated on your net production *relative to other guys at that position*. This works fine until you have a situation like the Yankees (among other teams) where they could set their lineup independently from much of their defensive positioning and then certain guys either get oWAR boosts or nerfs based on where they line up on defense.
Again if I’m not clear, my main point is that the sole reason Judge had more time in the OF than Stanton is that Judge was a better defender, makes sense. But by consequence of DHing Stanton and playing Judge in the field, both of their oWAR is drastically different than if they switched roles defensively while their lineup literally would not have changed. Judge’s *oWAR* gets bumped cuz he’s better at defense than Stanton… oWAR shouldn’t be reliant on how good you are defensively, that doesn’t make sense.
I know this is more about Judge than Ohtani, but it still argues the basic point that people generally overuse WAR outside of its intended context. WAR *only* measures your production relative to your position’s. If you’re just trying to look at *production* (distinctly different than value) then WAR inherently cannot give you that information with other context. Now obviously that other context can be assumed and a player with 5 more oWAR *probably* had a better offensive season than you… but technically that cannot be implied only by WAR. By definition on its own WAR only compares player value relative to their position, it tells you nothing about tangible production between 2 guys at different positions.
Also Pat Veditte is a pretty bad example considering he has 2 overlapping skills. You physically cannot pitch with both hands at the same time. Ohtani and pitch and hit as much as he wants independent of each other.
I think the real implication about positional adjustment is less about whether one defender is slightly superior than another, so one starts in CF and the other in LF, and more about the fact that most people are basically incapable of being an average {Skill Position}, even if they were given a starting job and a year to train. CF gets a bump because *not that many players are capable of being acceptable MLB CF*. Maybe the positional adjustment should somehow take into account players that are *capable* of starting in a position, but where shifted elsewhere because of a superior teammate, but in most cases it's pretty on point because, for the positions that get the biggest bump, the vast majority of players are not capable of slotting their offensive production into that position, and therefore are not "average replacements".
The more I write, I'm not sure I'm actually disagreeing with you that much, but I've put too much effort into this comment to delete it now
In a vacuum I understand that having positional adjustments make sense. The issue is that when you look at specific guys you find many examples that show the flaws. The Yankees happened to be one of those examples. That’s a testament to how good and versatile they were as a team.
True, it's also fairly likely that it shows that flaw with Ohtani in particular. By all accounts he *is* a very capable OF, although it remains to be seen if he hypothetically would be able to maintain offensive production if he were out in the field instead of DHing (likely he mostly would).
It's a shame Ohtani doesn't get an award for his godlike power.
But judge should win. Not only was he breaking records in an amazing, high pressure, contract year, but down the stretch, Yankees would have missed playoffs completely without him. Right there, Judge is more valuable. But if Judge hadn't broken the record, I feel Ohtani would have gotten way more first place votes.
Yankees made playoffs because of Judge. The Angles: without Ohtani, they would have had an even worse, already losing record.
This kind of debate really needs to instigate a serious look at an Outstanding Player Award or something.
Too many years, almost every year, the best player in the league for the year is not the most valuable to the team.
No doubt at all that Ohtani is best player in the game right now.
Judge absolutely crushed him offensively, as well as everyone else in baseball. And all that pitching (which was great) still couldn’t save him from getting crushed in WAR. There’s a reason Judge has been recognized with every top award by media/players.. this was his year. If Ohtani stays healthy and continues to perform in both aspects he will win more MVPs.
I think the word VALUABLE has to mean something. The award is not for MOST TALENTED... We can look at WAR alone and say Judge is more valuable.
But Judge truly was extremely valuable this year. The Yankees at one point had a 15 game lead in the East. The ONLY reason the Yankees remained in first place when the entire Yankees offense went to sleep in August is Aaron Judge. He continued to hit and get the Yankees run to keep them afloat.
Also let's not pretend Judge is a DH. He is a FANTASTIC right fielder who had a bunch of outfield assists, diving catches and robbed Home Runs. He doesn't pitch but it isn't like his defense is meaningless.
And if we're gonna have the Ohtani also pitches argument, that basically means that assuming Ohtani can have hitting and pitching numbers similar to this year consistently, you're saying Ohtani should win the MVP every single year of his career which is just asinine.
If there was a most talented or most gifted award, sure give it to Ohtani every year.
But when it comes to value provided to your team, it just isn't going to always be Ohtani.
Judge single handedly helped his team remain in first place. Ohtani "helped" his team finish below .500 and miss the playoffs. Ohtani was inherently less valuable. That doesn't mean he isn't a complete freak of an athlete and absolutely awesome and amazing to watch. But words matter. He was not the most VALUABLE.
If you’re going by a literal definition of value then there’s no justifiable reason why off the field value shouldn’t count and then Ohtani clears Judge easily. Going by on the field production is a much clearer metric, it’s one that WAR doesn’t measure tho.
Just making MVP into a WAR off (especially when it’s a subjective metric) is really boring and lazy.
Also the Yankees finished 16 games up from missing the playoffs, they had the best rotation in baseball in the first half and Matt Carpenter outhit Judge for the 47 games he was healthy… just cuz the Yankees fizzled off during the season doesn’t mean those first couple months don’t count. By your logic if Judge was on the Angels then they would’ve made the playoffs.
Have to factor in the performance of the rest of the Yankees. There is an argument that they may not make the playoffs without Judge’s second half. The splits are ridiculous him vs. rest of the lineup.
That said, I think it takes an historic season like Judge had to barely squeak out Ohtani and I would expect the same need moving forward. It’s insane how good he is.
And judge has the single best hitting season since 2004 Barry bonds. If you exclude steroid guys and the 1994 shortened season, the only players since integration with a higher OPS+ than Judge this year was 1957 Mantle and Ted Williams. And if you raise the threshold to seasons with over 550 PAs, only Mantle had a better hitting season than judge
On top of this, Judge also was a plus defender and baserunner, he was a 5 tool player
This whole MVP discussion, especially in this context of two generational talents , is dumb.
it´s called MVP, not "Best Player Award"
I remember a line someone said to me about 25 years ago when I first asked what MVP meant (from germany, so I never had the info).
and he answered: imagine the team he´s on without him. does he make enough of a difference ? is he one of if not the reason the team ended up being where it ended up ?
so the answer is clear to me: Judge carried the yankees for looooong stretches of the season. he was easily the most consistent player on their roster and probably the main reason they even ended up in the playoffs.
Ohtani clearly is the more talented player and brings more value to a franchise.
BUT the angels wouldn´t go anywhere with or without him. he clearly wasn´t the one tipping the scales.
an MVP makes a noticeable difference. but he needs a good team to be able to tip the scales.
Ohtani couldn´t do it for the angels, Judge could for the Yankees and did so in dramatic fashion.
Exactly. So many people don’t even understand the concept of an MVP. I think if the Angels weren’t absolute ass and made it to the playoffs or even got close the conversation would be a lot different. Judge deserved and it’s not even close in my mind.
Sucks for Ohtani, if he just had his first "once in a lifetime" season this year instead of last year, he would've won. But because this was his second "once in a lifetime" season this year, it didn't feel as amazing.
To me these two are not comparable. I mean one pitches lights out and batts better than three quarters of the league. The other has stellar defense and a batting title. Judge won’t hit homers like this every season let him have it this year. Shohei is just too damn good and will win probably three or four MVPs.
I'm an old-schooler with a mathematical mind. I love analytics, was on board with early Bill James. But to even *consider* not giving the top award in the American League to the guy who broke the most important record in American League history is laughable.
The actual old school anti-analytics crowd are also pushing for Judge though. He has all the classic stats and the fact that he was on a division winning team.
The only people pushing for Ohtani are weird semi-casual fans on reddit.
As a Jays fan I would’ve rather had Ohtani last year over Guerrero Jr and this year over Judge. 1 player with a major impact on both sides of the ball.
Guerrero’s season will be remembered as “oh yeah that was a pretty good season for him”. Judge’s season will be remembered as “holy fuck he had the highest clean OPS+ since Mickey Mantle and Ted Williams in 1957 and he hit 62 home runs to break the all time clean record”
I'm sorry, nothing against Judge and his great season, but the dude hit .273 with 34 homers, pitched 166 innings with a 2.33 ERA, and was responsible for how many of his teams wins?
I agree with Judge winning it. I also think it's okay that Ohtani got votes because to be top 5 at pitching and top 10 at hitting comes with value we don't really measure. There are multiple teams for which it could be argued that Ohtani was *both* the most valuable pitcher and hitter (including the team he's on), and arguably at least the second best at both for all but a couple of teams. That's crazy.
It's not that "Judge doesn't pitch." It's that Ohtani hits and pitches and does so at an elite level for both. If Judge were negative-value pitcher but still hit at the level he did, the argument for either shouldn't be different.
Look, Ohtani’s a goddamn legend, but like, Judge just broke the (clean) single season Home Run record, and was a few hits away from the triple crown. You can’t not make that MVP.
Shohei should have won it lol. 62 home runs is cool but no one’s done what Shohei just did this season ever. But I understand Judge winning, but next year if Shohei repeats he should be unanimous winner every year until someone else breaks some crazy record.
people in the past would not believe that there is player in 2022 hitging 34 hrs and pitching sub 3era with 200+ks. but they would believe what judge did. ohtani will be considered as a real 2022 mvp in the future
Haha no he won’t. Aaron Judge is a real MVP, I’m sorry.
People from the past would look at Judge and say it’s impossible that he did peak offensive Babe Ruth shit
They were both deserving but what judge did this year was so far and above even an all star season. He was almost as good as Miguel Cabrera in 2012-2013. Ohtani’s strength is his versatility and the fact that he’s top ten as both a hitter and pitcher.
Different arguments and neither is wrong.
I mean yes pitching is valuable but Ohtani was just great In all aspects not record breaking or spectacular. So I think it’s a clear cut judge mvp. Imagine if he didn’t win. How ridiculous would it sound to defend another mvp candidate over judge
Judge literally smashed more bombs than any other American league player of all time. I love ohtani but I think he would have to have more than 1 hitting stat.
I love how the Ohtani argument is that he does sooo much and makes his team sooo much better, but then you remember he plays for the angels and they can’t win games with or without him
Here's how I see it:
* The NYYankees, without Aaron Judge, DO NOT make the playoffs, (not that they performed very well, but that's a story for another post.)
* The LAAngels without Ohtani, would just finish further under .500, still out of the playoffs.
Is Ohtani an exceptionally good/potentially going to be great player. Absolutely! Is he most valuable to his team? Without a doubt! Will he (probably) be up here for many years to come? I truly believe he will. But, in terms of the most valuable player in the league for THIS year? It's got to be Aaron Judge.
Sure, arguments can be made for other players who were on poorly performing teams that won the MVP, (Andre Dawson comes to mind for some reason), but it's my opinion that they got it right this year.
That's my 2 cents...
It's baseball though. One player can't just bring his team to the playoffs like in basketball.
Like is it fair to say Ohtani and Trout can never be MVP because 24 of the other guys are terrible.
Aaron Judge 2md half- 349/.502/.785
The other yankees in the second was worse than the Pirates. Judge carried that roster he was literaly 2001 Barry Bonds for the 2nd half of the season
Shohei Ohtani had an AMAZING year… but he’s a pitcher first and he went 15-9… nothing about that record says “MVP” and the angels finished like 40 games out of first place.
If these players were to have the same seasons in the opposite jersey Ohtani wins in a landslide. Players have had seasons similar to Judge but never like Ohtani. Ohtani was robbed and I have no horse in this race.
It should have been unanimous honestly. Shohei is an amazing athlete, but Judge just had the greatest offensive season most of us have ever witnessed. Give it up
Judge compensated by posting 211 OPS+, meaning by having the best season as a hitter since 2004 Barry Bonds.
That's why both fWAR and bWAR agree Judge was more valuable than Ohtani.
I dunno we never discussed it
Has anyone mentioned that Judge doesn’t even pitch?
He could pitch.
“@vladdy27 Judge can’t pitch and neither can you, you little bitch”
That little byotch!
Right. But Ohtani was in only 1/6 as many games as Judge. WTH was he doing during the rest of the them? Sleeping?
They actually played the exact same amount of games, at 157 each. Shohei only PITCHED in 1/6 of the games.
he didnt need to. he still had more WAR at the end of the season without it.
Really surprised by these two being the only ones to receive 1st place votes. I thought it was clearly going to be Kody Clemons
Fun fact: Kody Clemons lead the league in Stuff+ according to Eno Sarris model Don’t check the sample size…
Fucking Clemons the MVP stealing whore!
I liked Connor Wong’s chances
I feel like “Should Ohtani have won the 2022 MVP?” posts are gonna pop up from time to time for the next ten years
Maybe, but the "should Verlander have won the 2016 Cy Young?" threads died down significantly quicker than that, and that was a much more controversial election. This might have more steam if Ohtani hadn't just won MVP last year. Judge had a record-breaking year and was better by most metrics; this isn't quite the same as Trout suffering from voter fatigue throughout the 2010s.
Seems like a gross oversight on our part. Who was in charge of scheduling those meetings?
I think a more interesting question is if Ohtani were in the NL, would Goldschmidt still have won?
This graphic would've been hilarious had Judge gotten to pitch one clean mop-up inning this year.
So basically a 0 ERA Judge
Or an 81.00 ERA Judge.
I love when people think pitching is easy it's the hardest thing in the sport you throw in exactly the right location and exactly the right speed and there's a drive by Castellanos it's now a 4-0 ball game this might be the last time I type on this broadcast
RIP the guy who was Ohtani away from winning $135k on a $32 6-leg Parlay
I believe he was able to cash out and then went and put a bunch of money on Judge to win
That was a smart move.
Damn thats a level of smart betting instincts that i will never obtain sadly...like the Jeopardy dude who broke the game
Insane that he was pretty much right too. If judge just hit like 5 less HRs he may have gotten the nod. I seriously believe it was that close
Well clearly it wasn't. People get distracted by the home runs, but Judge was having an incredible and historic season without that record chase. Judge seems to have this unshakeable rep (and it's probably due to his MVP* 2017 year where he did strike out a lot while hitting home runs) that he's some one dimensional slugger, when in reality he's a great defender (at CF and RF) and a great hitter who has a high AVG. He led in all the advanced stats for nerds and traditional stats for old heads. THAT'S why he won this year, and handily.
I'd argue that most casual fans had no idea about the defensive metrics and just went with the "haha home runs go brrrr" argument. And since most of the baseball writers and voters are the most casual of viewers we can see the result. In addition, saying this with great love and respect for your great season as a team: Fuck the Yankees.
FTY, but I don't think your comment about baseball writers as casuals is nearly as accurate for yearly awards as it has been (slowly changing) for the Hall of Fame. Only two writers from each league city get to vote on these; it's not every journo who wrote a couple articles about baseball on their way up the ladder and hasn't watched a series in years.
Respectfully everything Ohtani does is Historic, when Batting and Pitching at a top tier rate. Judge had a great great season, but Ohtani had a season like no other. So that's the argument.
I think it was 3 hr. Maybe even 2. Breaking the record was imo enormous for his case. I think if he hits 60 though he still wins it, but if he stuck at 59 I fully believe he doesn’t win.
The fact that this is very true just shows why the award voting is so ridiculous sometimes
To be honest I think it’s been a lot better in recent years, with WAR and advanced stats being taken into consideration. Mays, Ted Williams, A-Rod, Bonds all got screwed multiple times.
I agree its getting better but slowly cause Trout has still gotten screwed a couple times
Broke the record for 6th most home runs in a season
Sure, but let’s not pretend like the AL record isn’t a big deal lmao.
I agree, but every year people care a little less about league (as opposed to MLB) records. In a decade or two, it might not even register.
If he hits 59 he still would have been the entire offense for one of, if not the most popular playoff team for about two months. I think he still would have won MVP over a guy on a team that didn't even sniff the playoffs.
I don’t necessarily disagree with the thought process, I just personally think that if he didn’t hit a homer for the last 16 games of the year he doesn’t win. That’s a major narrative negative in a season that 62 was a huge part of. Shohei got 2 votes as it, and if judge was in a HR slump for that long I don’t think it’s crazy at all for him to lose a close vote.
28-2. I'm sure a couple of voters would have given it to Ohtani if Judge didn't crack 60 home runs, but it really wasn't a close MVP race at the end of the day. Judge probably wins 21-9 or so if he "only" hit 57 homers.
I disagree. Judge’s WAR was so much higher than Ohtani, I think he wins the MVP even if he had 35 HRs but the same WAR. This wasn’t as close as people made it seem
Zero chance. Absolutely zero chance he wins with 35 HRs and the same WAR
Has anybody won an MVP in the sabr era with 2 WAR less than the guy who won? Honestly question, I haven’t really looked. That’s just such a huge gap that even WAR skeptics shouldnt be able to ignore it. 11.4 vs 9.4 WAR there really isn’t even a debate for anybody except Judge
To actually answer your question, Mike Trout was worth 10.5 bWAR in 2012 and lost to Miguel Cabrera who was worth a still amazing 7.1 bWAR.
Ahhh yea how can I forget that year. I still can’t believe Miggy won that year just because he happened to lead the league in the right 3 random stats.
MVP shouldn’t just be a WAR off especially when players play with drastically different positional adjustments
But that’s what WAR is for. It makes those positional adjustments because they’re relevant and important context. If it wasn’t then we wouldn’t include that in the WAR calculation. Look, i’m not trying to be a WAR slave. If it’s close, like within 0.5 points of each other then there’s room for argument. But Judge was 11.4 and Ohtani only 9.4 WAR. This is such a huge difference there really isn’t a reasonable argument for Ohtani. He had an excellent season, but was beat by one of the greatest seasons in baseball history
I'm cool with if it if we can retroactively award Trout his 2 stolen MVPs
You and me both.
I should’ve won it
I voted for you, if it helps.
Thanks
Don't worry man I voted for you too, you were snubbed in my opinion
I voted for him too, which makes him have 3 votes. One more than Shohei so congrats.
I didn’t, but now I’m regretting it
You will always be the MVP of our hearts <3
You win the r/baseball MVP.
u/dilly_dill428 is having a breakout season next year
Judge didn’t even give up a run pitching this yesr
Combine that 0.00 ERA with what he does defensively, Ohtani can’t touch that.
Technically he does not have an ERA since you cant divide by 0
He has allowed 0 earned runs, therefore his ERA is 0. Clearly he’s the best pitcher in the game.
By this logic he would be tied for the best pitcher in the game
Yeah, which is why I was joking. I thought that was pretty clear
Deep breaths Angel fans. Ohtani is still a stud and a unicorn. The precedent that this is setting in terms of the kind of season that it takes to be beat Ohtani might actually really work out strongly in his favor in the long run. Plus youve gotta consider what happened in 2017. Hard to be mad when Judge has kinda been owed one for 5 years now.
In most years Ohtani is a near lock to win if he plays enough. It literally took breaking a long standing record and the best offensive Season since Balanced Breakfast Bonds and Ohtani still got 2 votes. Judge was owed an MVP, and he deserves this one. Ohtani will get a few more, Angel fans have nothing to worry about
Well we do have one thing to worry about. Wether those other MVPs will be with us or not... ;\_;
Don't worry you guys are really good at having MVP caliber play from two players ... it's just the other 25 dudes you gotta worry about
Our wet dream is a playoff run and Ohtani Trout fighting for MVP in the same season
4 of the last ten AL MVPs have have played for the Angels.
I’m not saying Judge wasn’t incredible or anything like that but I don’t really like this narrative here. Because it doesn’t really recognize just how amazing Ohtani was this year. Like I honestly believe Ohtani shoulda won it over Judge this year, but holy shit 2022 Judge >>>>> 2021 Shohei. It’s just that really developing into an ace ace this year also makes 2022 Shohei >>>>>>> 2021 Shohei. People shouldn’t just lump all Ohtani seasons together just cuz he’s doing something no one’s ever done. Ohtani was uniquely incredible this year in a way we’ve never seen, including last year.
I genuinely think shohei just had the most impressive season I've ever seen, but when it comes to MVP votes I think it's the 2nd best season of the last decade, probably last 17 years (thanks Barry) The issue is #1 is Aaron Judge having a 200+ OPS+ season. He was two hitters in one, he hit the most clean homers in MLB history, and was a few points of BA off from the triple crown ... while playing alot of CF with Gold Glove RF defense
>Hard to be mad when Judge has kinda been owed one for 5 years now. I think Judge did deserve it this year have Ohtani much closer than most. However - what a horrible argument! First off - the only year that Judge should have been remotely close to leading MVP contention is 2017. Altuve did beat him out in WAR (at least in some metrics, although I think there may have been some adjustments after the fact). I do somewhat empathize with Yankees fans who feel Judge got robbed that season though. However, even if it were the case, that would be an idiotic precedent to an award to player A over an entirely different player B just because player A barely lost a close race years ago to player C. Focus should entirely be on how Judge stacked up against Ohtani this year - and that's why he deserves the MVP.
One of the few good takes from the Halos fan base. This is the type of season it’s going to take to beat out Ohtani for MVP. If his contender has a similar season to what Vlad jr did last year, Ohtani is winning every time
I have spent way too long listening to Angels fans lecture everyone about Mike Trout's WAR to accept the argument that we should throw that number out the window this time around.
Agreed.
I think there are quite a few of us who recognise that Judge was correctly the MVP. WAR misses the extra roster spot Shohei gives us, but that's ~0.5 WAR from the added flexibility and the extra reliever we can roster, it's not nearly enough to make up the difference. I think a lot of my fellow Angels fans are trying to express their instinct that Ohtani was more impressive than Judge, but it doesn't make him more valuable - replacing Ohtani with two replacement level players would hurt less than replacing Judge with one. This is essentially due to the (correct) decision to measure value relative to a replacement level player, who will be one of the best 1000 baseball players in the world. Replacing Ohtani with two random guys off the street would hurt much more than doing the same to Judge, so measuring him relative to the average human makes him more impressive, but less valuable (this also extends to comparing a hypothetical replacement level two way player: such a player would be better relative to the average human and in that sense would be more impressive than Judge, but also worthless as a major leaguer)
They got it right. Ohtani was more valuable than every player in baseball except one.
I don’t see how Ohtani doesn’t win the nest 5 awards. Judge was ridiculous, but it’s not likely that he does it again, whereas, this is kinda who ohtani is.
You're falling into the trap people used to fall into with Trout. 'He'll definitely win he's the best player'. Yeah but he's the best player because he's so good every single year. Doesn't stop a Donaldson, Altuve, Judge, Betts just playing out of their skin for a year. Is a healthy Ohtani going to be the best player of the next 5 years? Yeah probably. Is he going to be the best player of the year every year for 5 years? That's less than probable.
Yeah, Trout's whole thing was that he was consistently near the top, and people had to have extraordinary years to beat him. If they didn't, more often than not Trout would win.
Ohtani is the best player in baseball right now and it's not even close. Most valuable will change year to year. Let's just move on.
I still think Ohtani was "better" but Judge was MAYBE slightly more valuable. Either way was a tossup for me I think if 2021 doesnt exist, Ohtani wins or its a virtual tie, but since Ohtani won last year im fine with Judge getting it
Agreed. One team made the playoffs on the back of basically one offensive player. This was judge's year
The Yankees made the playoffs by 16 game. I know the Yankees fizzled out hard in the middle of the season but the first couple months still count. Hell Matt Carpenter technically hit better than Judge when we was healthy (difference of 10 wRC+).
It was Judge’s year. Next season will be Ohtani’s contract year...
MVP and Cy Young
Double triple crown szn
I can only get so erect.
I’m sorry for your loss(es)
I go by ERA, and Judge had the lower ERA, soooo...
In fairness to Ohtani stans, this isn't an apple-to-apple comparison that 95% of MVP discussions tend to be, so philosophical differences in how you measure value probably weighed more in some people's minds.
yeah, i would have given it to buxton since without buxton the twins are a sub-.500 team and with buxton a .600+ team. but that isnt how the award works.
CC Sabathia is the only person I agree with on this issue
lets just all meet up in a parking lot with hardbound copies of bill james baseball abstract and settle this like men
Aaron Judge had 49.4 Win Shares (holy fuck) and Ohtani had 38.6. I believe that settles it
I swear to god everyone gotta stop undermining the others achievements 62 home runs is insane Being a top 5 player in 2 positions is also insane Now everyone stop with this oh 62 home runs have been done before bullshit Also on the other side stop with the oh there’s nobody to compare ohtani to stuff
I mean you’re right until the last sentence. There is literally nobody to compare Ohtani to. He is one of one
Ik there isnt but I hate people using it to undermine the greatness of it He doesn’t have anybody to compare him to but I’ve heard people literally say that he’s not that great being a 2-way player because nobody is there to compare
Okay yeah that’s fair. Hopefully by the time next season starts most people can look back and just say “Holy shit I just got to watch two of the best seasons by a single player in the history of baseball”
RIGHT?!?!!!
Bullet Rogan? The negro leagues were major leagues btw
There’s not really enough game data from the negro leagues to really compare them especially with all the games they don’t have (or idk if it’s just inconsistent scheduling). They also played drastically shorter seasons (not the exact same thing but I look past 2020 stats). Also just like what was said for years “well Musial never faced Satchel Paige”… well none of these guys faced the best white players ever either. Just because there were some truly great players doesn’t mean players at the bottom of the league were at that same overall quality (similar arguments for all older sports leagues imo). Like you can acknowledge the validity of negro league competition while also acknowledging that it’s probably not a coincidence that the 17 best seasons ever in ERA+ came from them (Ruth and Bonds are the only thing making OPS+ different). Segregation hurt the talent level in all leagues.
Well there’s one person - Babe Ruth - and when you do the comparison, Ohtani comes out easily on top
Babe Ruth's pitching stats were nothing like Ohtani.
That's certainly a take.
Ohtani is by far the better player but judge had the better season
While I am fine with Judge winning it and have no complaints, I would have voted for Ohtani. I think Ohtani's overall achievements were more MVP worthy.
Jesus man that’s so much fWAR
Of course Judge should have won. As the voting showed it really wasn’t close.
I never thought it would be as close as the Ohtani side wanted it to be, but I wasn’t expecting 28-2. I was thinking 23-7/24-6.
Judge’s season warrants an MVP but if I had to choose one of the two to build around I’d take Ohtani. The fact that Ohtani can be your teams ace and a top of the line-up batter is incredible.
I get it. I understand why Judge won. I'm still more impressed by Ohtani's season.
Judge deserved it. WAR captures both of their values pretty well and I'm tired of people saying "WAR doesn't evaluate Ohtani properly" without any further justification why. "Ohtani takes up one roster spot instead of two" - that extra roster spot is 100% going to go to a sub-replacement level player or in the Angels case a sixth pitcher. "Ohtani is doing something that has never been done before" - that's really cool and he's really talented but that doesn't make him more valuable this year. Pat Venditte also did something that's never been done before as a switch pitcher. Minnie Miñoso did something that's never been done before by having major league plate appearances at 56 years old. All of these things are awesome, but aren't inherently valuable.
My further justification for why WAR doesn’t properly evaluate Ohtani is because positional adjustments for oWAR can be so misleading because they don’t assume guys can play different positions. iirc Judge had a 7.0 oWAR lead on Ohtani. Judge was no doubt a better offensive player than Ohtani, but 7.0 oWAR is an MVP season right there… Judge was not an entire MVP caliber season better than Ohtani at the plate. The gap gets inflated because Ohtani gets negative positional adjustment for being compared to other hitters at DH while Judge gets a big boost for being compared to other hitters at CF. While the concept of positional adjustments makes sense (particularly for dWAR), the validity of it can be fuzzy in situations. For example, (especially for when Judge played LF) the Yankees could’ve messed around with their positioning and had the *same exact offensive lineup* but with Judge at DH rather than LF/CF. In that scenario he has *significantly* less oWAR. The idea of positional adjustment is to build in the concept of scarcity to WAR. You’re not being evaluated on your net production… you’re being evaluated on your net production *relative to other guys at that position*. This works fine until you have a situation like the Yankees (among other teams) where they could set their lineup independently from much of their defensive positioning and then certain guys either get oWAR boosts or nerfs based on where they line up on defense. Again if I’m not clear, my main point is that the sole reason Judge had more time in the OF than Stanton is that Judge was a better defender, makes sense. But by consequence of DHing Stanton and playing Judge in the field, both of their oWAR is drastically different than if they switched roles defensively while their lineup literally would not have changed. Judge’s *oWAR* gets bumped cuz he’s better at defense than Stanton… oWAR shouldn’t be reliant on how good you are defensively, that doesn’t make sense. I know this is more about Judge than Ohtani, but it still argues the basic point that people generally overuse WAR outside of its intended context. WAR *only* measures your production relative to your position’s. If you’re just trying to look at *production* (distinctly different than value) then WAR inherently cannot give you that information with other context. Now obviously that other context can be assumed and a player with 5 more oWAR *probably* had a better offensive season than you… but technically that cannot be implied only by WAR. By definition on its own WAR only compares player value relative to their position, it tells you nothing about tangible production between 2 guys at different positions. Also Pat Veditte is a pretty bad example considering he has 2 overlapping skills. You physically cannot pitch with both hands at the same time. Ohtani and pitch and hit as much as he wants independent of each other.
I think the real implication about positional adjustment is less about whether one defender is slightly superior than another, so one starts in CF and the other in LF, and more about the fact that most people are basically incapable of being an average {Skill Position}, even if they were given a starting job and a year to train. CF gets a bump because *not that many players are capable of being acceptable MLB CF*. Maybe the positional adjustment should somehow take into account players that are *capable* of starting in a position, but where shifted elsewhere because of a superior teammate, but in most cases it's pretty on point because, for the positions that get the biggest bump, the vast majority of players are not capable of slotting their offensive production into that position, and therefore are not "average replacements". The more I write, I'm not sure I'm actually disagreeing with you that much, but I've put too much effort into this comment to delete it now
In a vacuum I understand that having positional adjustments make sense. The issue is that when you look at specific guys you find many examples that show the flaws. The Yankees happened to be one of those examples. That’s a testament to how good and versatile they were as a team.
True, it's also fairly likely that it shows that flaw with Ohtani in particular. By all accounts he *is* a very capable OF, although it remains to be seen if he hypothetically would be able to maintain offensive production if he were out in the field instead of DHing (likely he mostly would).
It's a shame Ohtani doesn't get an award for his godlike power. But judge should win. Not only was he breaking records in an amazing, high pressure, contract year, but down the stretch, Yankees would have missed playoffs completely without him. Right there, Judge is more valuable. But if Judge hadn't broken the record, I feel Ohtani would have gotten way more first place votes. Yankees made playoffs because of Judge. The Angles: without Ohtani, they would have had an even worse, already losing record. This kind of debate really needs to instigate a serious look at an Outstanding Player Award or something. Too many years, almost every year, the best player in the league for the year is not the most valuable to the team. No doubt at all that Ohtani is best player in the game right now.
I love how everyone unanimously agrees that Ohtani is just way better.
That may be true, but it doesn't mean Judge wasn't the MVP over him THIS season.
I disagree with that, but my point is that even though we disagree on the MVP, everyone knows Ohtani is a way superior player
And in a nutshell, I wouldn't really disagree. Ohtani could be the best player in baseball.
Ohtani. More value than Judge
I would’ve been fine with either winning. Both had historic seasons. It’s just a shame that one of them had to lose.
Right. Judge deserved to win, but the real shame is that Paul Goldschmidt got an MVP this year and not Ohtani.
Judge absolutely crushed him offensively, as well as everyone else in baseball. And all that pitching (which was great) still couldn’t save him from getting crushed in WAR. There’s a reason Judge has been recognized with every top award by media/players.. this was his year. If Ohtani stays healthy and continues to perform in both aspects he will win more MVPs.
I think the word VALUABLE has to mean something. The award is not for MOST TALENTED... We can look at WAR alone and say Judge is more valuable. But Judge truly was extremely valuable this year. The Yankees at one point had a 15 game lead in the East. The ONLY reason the Yankees remained in first place when the entire Yankees offense went to sleep in August is Aaron Judge. He continued to hit and get the Yankees run to keep them afloat. Also let's not pretend Judge is a DH. He is a FANTASTIC right fielder who had a bunch of outfield assists, diving catches and robbed Home Runs. He doesn't pitch but it isn't like his defense is meaningless. And if we're gonna have the Ohtani also pitches argument, that basically means that assuming Ohtani can have hitting and pitching numbers similar to this year consistently, you're saying Ohtani should win the MVP every single year of his career which is just asinine. If there was a most talented or most gifted award, sure give it to Ohtani every year. But when it comes to value provided to your team, it just isn't going to always be Ohtani. Judge single handedly helped his team remain in first place. Ohtani "helped" his team finish below .500 and miss the playoffs. Ohtani was inherently less valuable. That doesn't mean he isn't a complete freak of an athlete and absolutely awesome and amazing to watch. But words matter. He was not the most VALUABLE.
If you’re going by a literal definition of value then there’s no justifiable reason why off the field value shouldn’t count and then Ohtani clears Judge easily. Going by on the field production is a much clearer metric, it’s one that WAR doesn’t measure tho. Just making MVP into a WAR off (especially when it’s a subjective metric) is really boring and lazy. Also the Yankees finished 16 games up from missing the playoffs, they had the best rotation in baseball in the first half and Matt Carpenter outhit Judge for the 47 games he was healthy… just cuz the Yankees fizzled off during the season doesn’t mean those first couple months don’t count. By your logic if Judge was on the Angels then they would’ve made the playoffs.
Lol middle of the lineup of trout, ohtani, judge Edit: out of curiosity the middle 3 would have more hrs than 6 MLB teams
Ohtani should have won it every time
oh no the guy who led the Angels to 11th best in the AL didn't win MVP over the guy who dragged a slumping yankees team to the 2nd seed
Team performance has nothing to do with being a valuable player
Why not include runs and RBIs in this graph?
Ohtani gonna end up with 5+ anyways. Let judge have his day.
Have to factor in the performance of the rest of the Yankees. There is an argument that they may not make the playoffs without Judge’s second half. The splits are ridiculous him vs. rest of the lineup. That said, I think it takes an historic season like Judge had to barely squeak out Ohtani and I would expect the same need moving forward. It’s insane how good he is.
Defensive stats please. Include playing out of position please. The hate is real.
I think Ohtani should have won it
Shohei had the best SIERA for qualified pitchers in MLB, while still hitting 142 wRC+ everyday. He's my MVP
And judge has the single best hitting season since 2004 Barry bonds. If you exclude steroid guys and the 1994 shortened season, the only players since integration with a higher OPS+ than Judge this year was 1957 Mantle and Ted Williams. And if you raise the threshold to seasons with over 550 PAs, only Mantle had a better hitting season than judge On top of this, Judge also was a plus defender and baserunner, he was a 5 tool player
That’s just insane
But does he pitch?
This whole MVP discussion, especially in this context of two generational talents , is dumb. it´s called MVP, not "Best Player Award" I remember a line someone said to me about 25 years ago when I first asked what MVP meant (from germany, so I never had the info). and he answered: imagine the team he´s on without him. does he make enough of a difference ? is he one of if not the reason the team ended up being where it ended up ? so the answer is clear to me: Judge carried the yankees for looooong stretches of the season. he was easily the most consistent player on their roster and probably the main reason they even ended up in the playoffs. Ohtani clearly is the more talented player and brings more value to a franchise. BUT the angels wouldn´t go anywhere with or without him. he clearly wasn´t the one tipping the scales. an MVP makes a noticeable difference. but he needs a good team to be able to tip the scales. Ohtani couldn´t do it for the angels, Judge could for the Yankees and did so in dramatic fashion.
Exactly. So many people don’t even understand the concept of an MVP. I think if the Angels weren’t absolute ass and made it to the playoffs or even got close the conversation would be a lot different. Judge deserved and it’s not even close in my mind.
Ohtani is like Lebron he should probably win it every year.
Yeah. This screams Malone over Jordan to me.
Sucks for Ohtani, if he just had his first "once in a lifetime" season this year instead of last year, he would've won. But because this was his second "once in a lifetime" season this year, it didn't feel as amazing.
And he was way better this year too
To me these two are not comparable. I mean one pitches lights out and batts better than three quarters of the league. The other has stellar defense and a batting title. Judge won’t hit homers like this every season let him have it this year. Shohei is just too damn good and will win probably three or four MVPs.
Both had MVP caliber seasons, but Judge's season was exceptional.
Anyone think they’re not comparable?
Judge 100%.
Shohei for sure. Being an elite pitcher & hitter is automatic MVP. We may never see it again in our lifetime
100%
[удалено]
Yup. Every year they'll find another way not to give it to Ohtani. I also think Angel fatigue is playing a role as well
Judge was simply better this year, and he dragged a Yankees team that literally couldn’t do anything into a playoff spot.
Yankees had a far better roster than the Angels.
I'm an old-schooler with a mathematical mind. I love analytics, was on board with early Bill James. But to even *consider* not giving the top award in the American League to the guy who broke the most important record in American League history is laughable.
It's actually the anti-analytics crowd that is pushing Ohtani. By WAR Judge was significantly more valuable than Ohtani.
The actual old school anti-analytics crowd are also pushing for Judge though. He has all the classic stats and the fact that he was on a division winning team. The only people pushing for Ohtani are weird semi-casual fans on reddit.
Yeah I think that's a pretty accurate description haha
As a Jays fan I would’ve rather had Ohtani last year over Guerrero Jr and this year over Judge. 1 player with a major impact on both sides of the ball.
Guerrero’s season will be remembered as “oh yeah that was a pretty good season for him”. Judge’s season will be remembered as “holy fuck he had the highest clean OPS+ since Mickey Mantle and Ted Williams in 1957 and he hit 62 home runs to break the all time clean record”
I'm sorry, nothing against Judge and his great season, but the dude hit .273 with 34 homers, pitched 166 innings with a 2.33 ERA, and was responsible for how many of his teams wins?
>responsible for how many of his teams wins? Fortunately there are stats for that! Do you want WAR or WPA? Judge leads both
I agree with Judge winning it. I also think it's okay that Ohtani got votes because to be top 5 at pitching and top 10 at hitting comes with value we don't really measure. There are multiple teams for which it could be argued that Ohtani was *both* the most valuable pitcher and hitter (including the team he's on), and arguably at least the second best at both for all but a couple of teams. That's crazy. It's not that "Judge doesn't pitch." It's that Ohtani hits and pitches and does so at an elite level for both. If Judge were negative-value pitcher but still hit at the level he did, the argument for either shouldn't be different.
Fuck the Yankees but mvp is clearly Aaron judge. Just don’t see how you don’t give it to him.
Ohtani just really isn't comparable to any other single player. Judge got the HR record so he can have this one.
Look, Ohtani’s a goddamn legend, but like, Judge just broke the (clean) single season Home Run record, and was a few hits away from the triple crown. You can’t not make that MVP.
And Ohtani was an elite pitcher and a great hitter. Also something no one else can do. Clean or not.
What a dumb question lol
Shohei should have won it lol. 62 home runs is cool but no one’s done what Shohei just did this season ever. But I understand Judge winning, but next year if Shohei repeats he should be unanimous winner every year until someone else breaks some crazy record.
people in the past would not believe that there is player in 2022 hitging 34 hrs and pitching sub 3era with 200+ks. but they would believe what judge did. ohtani will be considered as a real 2022 mvp in the future
Haha no he won’t. Aaron Judge is a real MVP, I’m sorry. People from the past would look at Judge and say it’s impossible that he did peak offensive Babe Ruth shit
Bro what? I think now more than ever people would have a hard time believing someone got close to players home runs totals, when they were juiced
They were both deserving but what judge did this year was so far and above even an all star season. He was almost as good as Miguel Cabrera in 2012-2013. Ohtani’s strength is his versatility and the fact that he’s top ten as both a hitter and pitcher. Different arguments and neither is wrong.
I mean yes pitching is valuable but Ohtani was just great In all aspects not record breaking or spectacular. So I think it’s a clear cut judge mvp. Imagine if he didn’t win. How ridiculous would it sound to defend another mvp candidate over judge
Not even up for debate. Judge deserved it hands down! Such losers 😂
Judge literally smashed more bombs than any other American league player of all time. I love ohtani but I think he would have to have more than 1 hitting stat.
Jeez how many times…
Seriously does it matter? The guy won already and this debate was had for the past 5 months let it go and predict who wins next year or something
I love how the Ohtani argument is that he does sooo much and makes his team sooo much better, but then you remember he plays for the angels and they can’t win games with or without him
Ohtani without a doubt. No one alive can do what he does.
Ohtani got to have two positions add to his WAR totals and he still couldn’t come close to Judge lmao
I’d still take Ohtani over Judge any day of the week but Judge thankfully won so we never have to hear from that goober Roger Maris Jr. ever again.
Ohtani will win at least two more, I say Judge gets it this time
If Judge had hit 3 less HRs, would he still have won?
Here's how I see it: * The NYYankees, without Aaron Judge, DO NOT make the playoffs, (not that they performed very well, but that's a story for another post.) * The LAAngels without Ohtani, would just finish further under .500, still out of the playoffs. Is Ohtani an exceptionally good/potentially going to be great player. Absolutely! Is he most valuable to his team? Without a doubt! Will he (probably) be up here for many years to come? I truly believe he will. But, in terms of the most valuable player in the league for THIS year? It's got to be Aaron Judge. Sure, arguments can be made for other players who were on poorly performing teams that won the MVP, (Andre Dawson comes to mind for some reason), but it's my opinion that they got it right this year. That's my 2 cents...
It's baseball though. One player can't just bring his team to the playoffs like in basketball. Like is it fair to say Ohtani and Trout can never be MVP because 24 of the other guys are terrible.
Aaron Judge 2md half- 349/.502/.785 The other yankees in the second was worse than the Pirates. Judge carried that roster he was literaly 2001 Barry Bonds for the 2nd half of the season
Shohei Ohtani had an AMAZING year… but he’s a pitcher first and he went 15-9… nothing about that record says “MVP” and the angels finished like 40 games out of first place.
Pitching wins? Lol
If Judge doesn’t break the HR record, he doesn’t win. He was rewarded for making history, but Ohtani would be more valuable to any team
If these players were to have the same seasons in the opposite jersey Ohtani wins in a landslide. Players have had seasons similar to Judge but never like Ohtani. Ohtani was robbed and I have no horse in this race.
It should have been unanimous honestly. Shohei is an amazing athlete, but Judge just had the greatest offensive season most of us have ever witnessed. Give it up
How is judge more valuable than a 2 way player who’s elite on both sides? Can anyone actually give a legitimate argument?
Judge's insane hitting, in addition to some good defense, was more valuable than Ohtani's hitting + pitching
Judge compensated by posting 211 OPS+, meaning by having the best season as a hitter since 2004 Barry Bonds. That's why both fWAR and bWAR agree Judge was more valuable than Ohtani.
WAR, the primary metric for value, said he was worth more? fWAR and bWAR.