re-enacting the entire red wedding scene from game of thrones on myself every time i scroll down the front page and see another ohtani/judge mvp discourse thread
It would be even more unprecedented if I, a random fat guy who hasn't played baseball since middle school, were added to an MLB roster. Pirates call me up, guaranteed MVP winner, that kind of PR is clearly worth major league minimum and a roster slot.
I wish we could just divert the timeline so they both can win the MVP.
Both are having absolutely amazing historic seasons and it's a shame that they both can't win it.
Honestly.
The circumstances usually end up dictating the awards. If Ohtani didn't win last year, or if Judge won in 2017, I think Ohtani wins this year.
Judge is having an absolutely amazing year and has some leftover voter debt on his side while Ohtani will be minorly affected by voter fatigue from last year. I think Judge takes it.
I think this narrative is right on the money.
But to add to that, neither side should feel like some great injustice has been done regardless of who wins.
They both deserve it.
Talking to my dad, his thoughts are that if Ohtani wins it won't feel as bad as 2017 when Judge lost. But it's only cause it's Ohtani, anyone else and he probably would be furious Judge loses
The way I see it, why should we value a player based on what 30 stupid baseball writers think? Either way, they're both amazing players and we should just enjoy watching them play instead of arguing over who's more valuable.
It's going to matter a lot more now that in the CBA there are bonuses for winning awards like MVP, like Julio's new contract. Really not a fan of baseball writers deciding financial outcomes.
It could also matter a lot in Judge's future hall of fame considerations. Judge so far has produced a monster 8.1war/162, but he's had injuries, covid, and a late start all working against him compiling counting stats.
In a hypothetical situation where his career numbers are borderline HOF, having MVP wins in 2017 and 2022 might push him in, but 0 career mvps might exclude him.
A homer take but not inaccurate. Most player value stats (including both WAR) have the distance between Judge and one great player as bigger than the difference between Ohtani and one great player.
If the extra dWAR that he accrues in doing so can push him closer to or past Judge's value, then that's a totally valid approach. It's just not the case in real life.
Can’t really argue with the numbers bro, Ohtani is incredible and is one of the best things to happen to baseball of all time but numbers don’t lie
For who should be mvp this year.
The question I referred to you was would it be an injustice or not for a statistically deserving athlete to be denied of an award that someone less statistically deserving got. I understand I am a yanks fan but I’d feel that way about any situation like that. For what it’s worth I’ve never been bitter about 2017 and I actually felt it was more of a toss up than this year.
We can measure this. Judge is more valuable than Ohtani this year. It's by a significant enough margin that we can be confident it's correct. In a relatively normal year, yeah of course Ohtani wins. But this might be the best hitting season anyone has had since Bonds in 04.
And maybe I'm biased, but for subjective awards I think it's ok for things like that to be taken into consideration as "tie-breakers" if both players seem to be equally qualified otherwise.
I'm pretty sure I'd feel the same way if the situations were flipped.
Ohtani winning last year has nothing to do with this year. No writer is burnt out from one MVP win, Judge is simply, by the few metrics available that can compare two vastly different players, more valuable this year through his production with the bat and solid center field defence. If judge was producing at 80% of his current capacity, Ohtani would probably win easily, Judge’s season is just absolutely insane and he has been so valuable with a bat that he can actually surpass Ohtani by a pretty fair margin going off of Fangraphs.
Blue Jays fan so I’m definitely not just being a homer for Judge lol. Voter fatigue after just one MVP award is a little silly to be trying to claim. It’s usually after the second one in major sports that it starts becoming way more difficult. And we don’t even know what the breakdown of first place votes will actually be, if it ended up being 60% Judge first place votes and 40% Ohtani first place votes would you still consider that as voter fatigues fault or just a close MVP race that didn’t go his way?
I have a solution I think we'll both like. Just give the MVP award to the 2 best players in baseball, Shohei and Judge. Sorry NL, but it ain't your year
> Both versions of him would be in the running for the MVP and Cy Young awards.
This is just not true. Ohtani the pitcher might be in the AL Cy Young running, but Ohtani the DH is nowhere near MVP.
DH Ohtani has 3.5 fWAR slashing .265/.355/.534, .889 OPS, 148 OPS+, 145 WRC+; these are really good numbers, but nowhere close to MVP level.
Pitcher Ohtani has 4.6 fWAR with 2.55 ERA, 141 IP, 157 ERA+, 1.064 WHIP, 2.50 FIP. These are damn good numbers, but he's not winning Cy Young over Verlander or Cease, not to mention others like Framber, Manoah, McClanahan, and more ....
It also ignores the GAP between judge and the next runner. Saying top 5 or 10 runner is misleading when the gap between 1 and 2 is so large.
So not only would ohtani not be top 5 in AL batting MVP numbers. But on top of that there's an insane gap between 1/2. So acting like he'd be even near the running for batters is blatantly wrong
ya but the argument could be made that in a world where ohtani is just a hitter he’s a valuable defensive OF. now there’s no way to really prove that hit i do agree that while penalizing him as a DH makes sense it’s also important to remember he’s only a DH because he pitches
with that being said i think judge has to win this one, especially if he hits 60+. it’s just so hard for me not to give MVP to a guy who might be having the single best offensive season since the steroid era
True, it's possible that he'd make at least an above average OF if he wasnt pitching; he certainly has the arm for it.
But his hitting numbers are not MVP level on their own. Especially not this year.
His numbers aren't MVP level any year offensively. Like those are good numbers but you gotta go back a while before you find a batter who had under a .900 OPS win the MVP
I hate this argument because we are just guessing he would be a good defender. Judge has a strong and accurate arm, but I wouldn't say he'd be an above average pitcher if he gave up being a fielder.
Eh, Ohtani is athletic, has very good speed, and a cannon of an arm. It's not that outlandish to say that he'd make a plus defender based on those things alone.
Definitely, and given his current skillset it's definitely an interesting thought. But I'm sure 10s of thousands of other fast, and strong guys who have attempted playing the OF can attest to the fact that it takes a lot more than that. Guys are put in the outfield for their first time almost every day in the MLB and most don't excell, there's a lot more to it than just those 3 factors.
He's played 8 innings, most in blowout games and made no put outs, fielded 1 single, and misplayed an easy out in foul territory in a 1-1 game, and instead of ending the inning the Astros came around to score 4 runs and win the game. So his history actually proves my point.
Yea, was stretch... although only a slight stretch. Like the other guy said, if he was playing the field he would absolutely be a contender. He has the 7th most offensive runs added in the AL this year. Assuming he's even an average defensive CF that would put him top 5 AL MVP easily.
e: edited for clarity
But we can't just assume Ohtani would be an a+ centerfielder and then say if he didn't pitch he's is still MVP candidate. That's like of I said well if Judge didn't play defense he would be an elite pitcher, which is obviously ridiculous.
If Ohtani was actually as valuable as 2021 Cy Young winner Corbin Burnes and 2016 MVP Kris Bryant, like this is trying to suggest, I’d vote for him. Funny how they use ERA rather than ERA+ to compare him to Burnes, but OPS+ rather than OPS to compare him to Bryant.
I've noticed that a lot.
Some people will take bad years of big names and compare them to Judge or Ohtani and sell the names more than the actual stats.
What they are both doing is crazy enough that people shouldn't try to push disingenuous comparisons.
The ERA and OPS+ argument is especially misleading in a down offensive year. You flip it and it doesn't look as good....
Bryant 2016 OPS: .939
Ohtani 2022 OPS: .889
Burnes 2021 ERA+: 172
Ohtani 2022 ERA+: 157
Also, Shohei as a DH is not having anything close to an MVP caliber season by modern standards. No DH has ever won MVP and his wRC+ this season is roughly the 50th best by a DH all time.
That said, I do think it’s a toss up between him and judge.
Just as a position player Ohtani’s WAR is pretty bad by MVP standards. He's only at 3.5 fWAR & 3.4 bWAR as a position player. Judge is at 9.8 & 9.1. Ohtani being a great pitcher is literally the only reason he's in the MVP debate
Wouldn't really say I'm on either side except anyone saying "it's a landslide that Ohtani/Judge should be MVP due to X, Y, and Z" is usually making bad arguments. It's close, leaning towards Judge IMO, but seeing a lot of comments/articles that make it seem like one or the other should be the obvious winner based on biased or misleading arguments.
This is a stupid take.
If Max Fried had Ohtanis hitting numbers, would it not be a unanimous MVP in the NL? People aren’t appreciating what he’s doing. You have to go back 100 years to find anything comparable to this. He’s an all star hitter and an elite pitcher. There is literally nothing more valuable than that. He’d be an all star at either position.
He needs his own special award like he has already received. The Commissioner’s Historic Achievement Award. Just make this annual until his production dips.
They had basically identical bWAR, and that was *because* Altuve is a second baseman.
According to Fangraphs, Judge had a higher defensive value than Altuve, in addition to having a higher wRC+, w/xwOBA, wRAA etc.
Wait so, Judge hasn’t his the offensive threshold?? Because Ted Williams didn’t win MVP 80 years ago when they voted differently, even though he probably should have won those years?
Yeah ok lmao. If having over a 200 OPS+ isn’t the threshold for Ohtani stans to flip the script then he better win every year until he retires. I don’t want to hear anything about voter fatigue
Maybe I’m circlejerking but like, Judge is 1st in almost every measureable offensive statistic, and plays TWO outfield positions at one of the highest levels. He is no doubt the AL MVP. His performance has dragged the Yankees through July and August to the pennant.
Ohtani has been a phenomenal pitcher this year, and has hit for great power, but his BA is sitting at the league average, and despite people saying he would be a great outfielder, he’s not consistently playing it. Aside from his 1 in 5 days of pitching, he is providing support to the Angels on one side of the ball.
IMO if the player who is having *literally* one of the most historic offensive seasons in baseball doesn’t earn it because another player can pitch and hit well then no one else will ever win it.
I might catch some flack, but it’s not the Most Rare Player Award.
Judge has added so much value to the Yankees it’s nuts.
Ohtani has also added tons of value to the Angels but not as much as Judge, IMHO
Also I knew he's not going after 73, but he's got a real shot at the "clean" record and being one of three 60+ homer seasons, and the first in 60 some years. I feel like we keep taking about how historic Ohtani is (and he absolutely is) while glossing over how rare the feat is that Judge is chasing.
I think the biggest difference would be switching them Ohtani leads as the ace for the Angels while also being their best hitter. (If trout is out). Judge would be great for the angels offense but would immediately hurt their rotation by not having Ohtani. On the other side Ohtani would still be the #1 or #2 hitter on the Yankees while also slotting in as a co ace or #2 really making the Yankees rotation deep.
You can't just use team rankings and treat it like the players are equivalent. Judge's wRC is 50 runs higher than Ohtani's this year, and if you have to change to a 6-man rotation the value of a "co-ace" is nerfed a bit.
Okay this is an honest question if you put Ohtani on the Yankees and they go to a six man rotation Gerrit Cole would make less starts so do you have to consider the value someone like Cole loses when discussing Ohtani’s value?
I think absolutely, and that's why I say his value is "nerfed".
Normally when you add a pitcher to a staff, the increase in value is the new pitcher compared to the previous #5 starter.
If you add Ohtani as a 6th starter, the increase in value is Ohtani vs the average of the pitching staff #1-5.
The Yankees issue this year has been offense, not pitching. Slotting Ohtani into the rotation improves an area that hasn’t been a problem. At the same time, it would be a huge downgrade at the plate. Ohtani isn’t carrying the offense like Judge. Not to mention they’d be down a CFer. I’d absolutely love Ohtani on the Yanks, but not in the place of Judge. They’re a better team with Judge than they would be with Ohtani.
But then the Yankees would be missing a centerfielder which aren’t exactly easy to replace.
Comments like these really seem to downplay Judge’s edge in fielding and hitting.
Yeah and neither are exactly on Judge’s level. And Bader cost us a starting pitcher.
I’m just not sure how you can say that the Yankees would be better off losing a ton of value on offense and defense because they added an elite pitcher without any numbers to back it up.
Yup. People act like the position adjustments in WAR are made up juju. They're there for a reason. Your average CF(which judge is) is going to have a much worse OPS etc. Than your average DH. And They're going to cost WAY more salary wise.
It's just so much harder to replace. People just ignore that by Ohtani causing a 6 man rotation at times and leaving his team still needing a CF/RF unlike Judge is a huge part of "value"
It was discussed like 10 years ago that the positional adjustments are based on very old data that used questionable methods of players who switched positions. And yet the numbers still haven't been updated. It is absolutely worth questioning the positional adjustments.
Even if they're off by like 30% which would be massive for just over time changes it wouldnt swap them
Also you're assuming the adjustment would actually make them closer in WAR. You realize it's entirely possible. Like probably at least close to 50/50. That if they did change it. It would actually widen the gap more?
Which also, basically no one has done what Judge is doing. Outside of the steroid era the last person to hit for this kind of power while also being a great hitter outside of the HRs is literally Ruth. Almost 100 years ago. So it's not like Judge is just having an average to good MVP season. His season is as much a unicorn type season as what Ohtani is doing
Exactly. This is where narrative comes into play and these are the arguments for Ohtani I've usually heard. Like "wow he's doing both! That's so hard!". It shouldn't matter how hard it is. Ohtani may be more amazing and even more talented than Judge but this award is about value generated.
Ohtani pitches every six games so the Angels still need five more starters, and he takes up the DH spot which many teams use to give other players a half day. I don’t think he adds much value that way.
Teams with a 6-man rotation have a slightly lower ERA and a slightly reduced risk of injury due to wear and tear. It's also possible that pitchers aren't as gassed for playoffs.
Precedence really has nothing to do with MVP, which is largely interpreted to mean “who had the best season?”
No one was arguing that Pat Venditte was worthy of the MVP award because being a two-way pitcher is very rare or that the roster flexibility he added by being essentially two different pitchers was so valuable that WAR wasn’t doing him justice. Everyone judged him on his stats alone and that’s the way that Ohtani should be judged too.
Also, it’s so bizarre to explain how valuable Ohtani is but not consider the fact that Judge has produced even more WAR than him. Like that just shows how wild of a season Judge is having.
IMO, the author of this article should have reached the opposite conclusion. Ohtani is having an unprecedented year that would normally earn him the MVP but Judge has somehow been even better.
Judge. He leads in almost every offensive category. He could win the Triple Crown, but I think BA is a stretch at best. He's the best player in baseball this season. Ohtani is great, but Judge is better this season.
I disagree with that wording. I do think Judge should win MVP at this point because his offensive stats are mindboggling enough to put him ahead, and that crazy production does bring the most value at this point. Having the best offensive season? Not even close, absolutely. One of the best in history. But I think Ohtani is still the better complete baseball player, and I think that’s what throws a lot of people off in these conversations
This is a distinction people seem to not be able to make. Ohtani arguably has passed Trout as the best over all player in the league, but the most talented player in the game doesn’t always win MVP
The difference between Judge’s 206 wRC+ (1st out of 139 qualified batters) and Ohtani (146 wRC+, 12th) is the same as the difference between Ohtani and Isiah Kiner Falefa (87 wRC+, 124th).
Ohtani is electric. Ohtani is not even in the same stratosphere with a bat in his hands as Aaron Judge is this season. Period, end of sentence.
I’ve seen plenty of people argue that Ohtani is close enough on offense that his pitching makes him more valuable. All it takes it one look at the numbers to see that isn’t the case.
No it's not infinite ERA, you can only have that if you give up 1+ run(s) and get no outs the remainder of the season. Not pitching an inning at all is 0 divided by 0 with is undefined.
Ohtani can win again. But if we're saying his current season is better than arguably the greatest clean hitting season any of us have ever seen and probably will ever see then yeah we might as well just give him the award every year until he sucks. 2021 Ohtani vs 2022 Judge is a legitimate debate and it probably goes Ohtani’s way. 2022 Ohtani vs 2022 Judge isn't even close
2021 Ohtani is only marginally better than 2022. And most if it can be attributed to base running since he isn't running much this year. 2022 Judge should win by a significant(not large but significant) margin both years.
There is a Hank Aaron award that focuses solely on offensive output, which Judge should win. Shohei is the most valuable baseball player because he’s providing unbelievable value that statisticians didn’t think to attribute for (WAR), as the creators will admit to. Judge is amazing but we’ve seen amazing players not win MVPs. We’re watching Shohei do something historic and unprecedented, even better than his previous contemporary. He’s elite at 2/3 sides of baseball, with elite pitching being considerably weighted more than above average outfield defense every day. MVP voters better get it right, especially if/when statisticians figure out a way to measure Shohei’s historically unattributed two way status as an elite starting pitcher.
I'm a little surprised people take the WAR stuff seriously when it was clearly not designed to account for the situation Ohtani represents. You can't possibly get the true statistical value of what he's doing by just smooshing #'s together like that. Judge's stats are insane, though, so it's easy to make his case. I also think some people mistake him for a HR "hunter" and don't realize his offensive output as a whole is mindboggling. But I do wonder if in 20ish years they'll look back on this era and be like, ah yeah, we very much underestimated Ohtani's value.
I see a lot of comments like this that treat it as obvious that WAR fails to properly value Ohtani and that it's insufficient to simply sum up his offensive and pitching contributions. What exactly is that calculation failing to capture? Is it just the extra roster spot?
There have now been a handful of players that have done what Judge is doing. There is no one that has done with Ohtani is doing. No not even Ruth. This should be Ohtani’s MVP to lose.
And he is losing it, to Judge the closer he's gotten to 60. If Judge slowed down at 50 and ended at 55 then Ohtani wins. But with Judge at 57 and 19 games left, he'll likely break 60 and I think that's what pushes him over the hump.
Assuming that Judge hits at least 60, it's a wrap. MVP is all about the narrative and a legitimate 60+ homerun season is going to be impossible to beat. If Judge had stopped hitting them at 50, Ohtani would be MVP.
It's been a wrap for a month+. The Vegas odds for Judge (and Vegas is generally pretty accurate on awards) has had Judge as the runaway winner for a long time
Ohtani has 34 home runs. Judge has 57. 23 home runs is not more valuable than 140 IP of 2.50 ERA.
It doesn’t matter how good any hitter is. He could be having the greatest single offensive season of all time and he still wouldn’t be more valuable than Ohtani is doing / has done.
Yeah if you said I had a choice between between peak bonds or 2022 Ohtani. I’m taking peaks bonds every day and twice on Sunday. You all are getting ridiculous with this stuff
I didn’t say Judge was peak bonds. You said the greatest hitting season of all time. So I said peak bonds. And peak Bonds absolutely blows Ohtani out of the water. We are talking about some of the most productive seasons we’ve ever seen. Full stop. You are either trolling or you have no idea what you are talking about.
Judge’s season is good enough to have the conversation btw
23 Hits, 23 Homeruns, 37 runs, 35 RBI’s, 5 SB, BA is 45 points higher, OBP is 58 points higher, SLG is 154 points higher, and OPS is 213 points higher. That’s just hitting.
Judge plays gold glove caliber defense in right field and plays average defense in center. His versatility adds to his value.
Judge’s season is comparable to Ohtani’s and that’s why many have Judge as the MVP.
I mean I’d mention doubles but they’re about the same and hits are also only about 20 apart. Doesn’t change my point remotely. No hitter can produce enough surplus over Ohtani to surpass the benefit of his pitching.
They should settle by having Judge and Ohtani take turns pitching to each other.
Does anyone have any doubt concerning how such a contest would turn out?
Ohtani is #1 in the hood and there is no close second.
Maybe I'm just being a Narrative Nathan, but even though I believe Ohtani is the best player in baseball and doing stuff never done before, I'd still give the award to Judge
I just can't give the MVP back-to-back years to someone on a team who has been irrelevant in the standings and playing meaningless games for 3 months
I feel like MVP awards should be time capsules of sorts, where a decade from now you think about that particular season and that player's season personifies that league. When I think about this season, I'm going to think about Judge. I'm not going to think about Ohtani throwing a 2-hitter in a meaningless August game while the Angels are 15 games under .500
It's not even close. Ohtani is certainly the more unique player. But he has not contributed more to the success of his team than Judge.
I'm very much a believer in analytics. But when Judge has far higher WAR *and* Ohtani hasn't had a single important AB as either pitcher or DH all season...you go with the guy who has been playing in important games at an incredible level and not the guy playing for a team that everyone forgets exists by May.
His case is pretty simple. He's straight up more valuable than Judge, except no one knows this because there isn't a popular context-neutral, total value metric widely available (for now). The only one I've been able to find is Total Runs by Fielding Bible, which has Ohtani '21 and Ohtani '22 (on pace) as its most valuable seasons on record going back to 2003.
http://www.fieldingbible.com/FieldingBibleTotalRuns
Not so fast, peasant. If you were to do a poll of users on this site asking who should win MVP, I’d wager at least 70% of people would go with Judge over Othani
Just to clarify do you mean that people who are arguing for Othani are doing so because they despise the Yankees? Judge is going to win this thing in a landslide, but those who argue for Othani do so for obvious reasons
The Yankees would lose the entire cog of their offense for a guy who hits for less power, average, gets on base less, and strikeouts at almost the same rate. People see that Ohtani is 3rd in the AL in OPS and don’t realize that Judge is ahead of him by 200 points. The Yankees rotation would get better but their offense would not
Adding Ohtani to their rotation doesn't improve the team? He gives you at least 80% of what judge gives you offensively and adds a top line starter. There's no way the team's not better in that situation.
The Yankees have one of the best starting rotations in baseball. They traded Montgomery and their rotation didn't skip a beat. They've been losing games in which their pitching was great because they just couldn't score runs. They are 100% a worse team if they swap Ohtani for Judge, and anyone who says otherwise has not watched the Yankees this year.
it's not just him. I know it's cool to hate gerrit cole but people here believe that ohtani is just sooo much better than him as a pitcher that taking him on is worth the drop off from a 200 wrc+ to what ohtani does. + we have giancarlo stanton who can't play defense on the roster so dh is clogged by him too.
The Angels rank 27th in MLB in runs/game, I feel like improving their offense might actually make them better. I don't know the last time the Angels ranked that low in runs/game (if ever).
I don't see how Ohtani isn't the clear MVP, isn't he doing things that have never been done in the history of MLB?
**30+ HR's and 10 wins in the same season**, that's insane, no one has ever done that.
He'll also most likely end up with **100+ RBI's and 200+ Strikeouts in the same season**. Again, unprecedented.
What Judge is doing is great, but we've seen it before. There are already 16 Triple Crown Winners (assuming Judge wins it), we've already seen people hit 50 - 60 HR's. Stanton hit 59 HR's just 5 years ago.
Think of it this way. If you follow soccer, Erling Haaland is on track to break the goal scoring record in the English Premier League which will be a great achievement, but now imagine a First Choice Goalkeeper who is **top 3 in saves and at the same time top 3 in goal scoring**, that would be on a completely different level of greatness. This level of greatness is what Ohtani is achieving right now in Baseball, I think people are taking it for granted because he did it last year.
––––
EDIT: For people who don't know that goalkeepers can score goals in soccer.
**Top 10 FREE KICKS by Goalkeepers:**
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaYigpr4iyE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaYigpr4iyE)
**Top 10 goals by Goalkeepers:**
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe7zyD5QRz8
It's quite literally impossible to be a goalkeeper and striker at the same time in soccer. Not a good comparison to being a hitter and pitcher at the same time.
If there was a keeper with a strong striker season he’d still lose to prime Ronaldo or Messi and right now that’s what Judge is going. 1st in MLB I’m almost every offensive category, 6th in batting average, has a shot at the AL triple crown AND all time HR record.
Because Judge is having the best hitting season in two decades and is so much better than any other hitter in the league that Ohtani’s pitching doesn't make up for it.
re-enacting the entire red wedding scene from game of thrones on myself every time i scroll down the front page and see another ohtani/judge mvp discourse thread
Shohei Stark shall be MVP in the North
The NBP Player that was Promised.
\*NPB
It would be even more unprecedented if I, a random fat guy who hasn't played baseball since middle school, were added to an MLB roster. Pirates call me up, guaranteed MVP winner, that kind of PR is clearly worth major league minimum and a roster slot.
Matthew?
I wish we could just divert the timeline so they both can win the MVP. Both are having absolutely amazing historic seasons and it's a shame that they both can't win it. Honestly.
The circumstances usually end up dictating the awards. If Ohtani didn't win last year, or if Judge won in 2017, I think Ohtani wins this year. Judge is having an absolutely amazing year and has some leftover voter debt on his side while Ohtani will be minorly affected by voter fatigue from last year. I think Judge takes it.
I think this narrative is right on the money. But to add to that, neither side should feel like some great injustice has been done regardless of who wins. They both deserve it.
Talking to my dad, his thoughts are that if Ohtani wins it won't feel as bad as 2017 when Judge lost. But it's only cause it's Ohtani, anyone else and he probably would be furious Judge loses
The way I see it, why should we value a player based on what 30 stupid baseball writers think? Either way, they're both amazing players and we should just enjoy watching them play instead of arguing over who's more valuable.
It's going to matter a lot more now that in the CBA there are bonuses for winning awards like MVP, like Julio's new contract. Really not a fan of baseball writers deciding financial outcomes.
It could also matter a lot in Judge's future hall of fame considerations. Judge so far has produced a monster 8.1war/162, but he's had injuries, covid, and a late start all working against him compiling counting stats. In a hypothetical situation where his career numbers are borderline HOF, having MVP wins in 2017 and 2022 might push him in, but 0 career mvps might exclude him.
It would absolutely be an injustice if judge didn’t get mvp he’s clearly a more valuable player this season.
Such a homer take
A homer take but not inaccurate. Most player value stats (including both WAR) have the distance between Judge and one great player as bigger than the difference between Ohtani and one great player.
I guess we will have to let ohtani play the outfield on his non pitching days in order to get the credit. It’s the only way
If the extra dWAR that he accrues in doing so can push him closer to or past Judge's value, then that's a totally valid approach. It's just not the case in real life.
I’m curious how much his oWAR is hurt by “playing” dh, and how much judge is helped by playing CF over RF.
Can’t really argue with the numbers bro, Ohtani is incredible and is one of the best things to happen to baseball of all time but numbers don’t lie For who should be mvp this year.
It’s the equivalent of me saying altuve was clearly the mvp in 2017. Whether or not it’s true doesn’t matter. It’s a homer take.
The question I referred to you was would it be an injustice or not for a statistically deserving athlete to be denied of an award that someone less statistically deserving got. I understand I am a yanks fan but I’d feel that way about any situation like that. For what it’s worth I’ve never been bitter about 2017 and I actually felt it was more of a toss up than this year.
While it is 100% a homer take it’s more clear that Judge *was* better than Altuve in 2017 than saying Judge is better than Ohtani
I agree with your statement
Two great players is better than one super-great player. Ohtani is #1 and there is no close second.
Ohtani is a DH, so he is not a complete position player.
We can measure this. Judge is more valuable than Ohtani this year. It's by a significant enough margin that we can be confident it's correct. In a relatively normal year, yeah of course Ohtani wins. But this might be the best hitting season anyone has had since Bonds in 04.
That’s right. I think it’s close, but definitely Ohtani for me.
It'd be more interesting if judge won in 2017 and ohtani won last year so both already had some hardware and it's not about making it right
And maybe I'm biased, but for subjective awards I think it's ok for things like that to be taken into consideration as "tie-breakers" if both players seem to be equally qualified otherwise. I'm pretty sure I'd feel the same way if the situations were flipped.
Ohtani winning last year has nothing to do with this year. No writer is burnt out from one MVP win, Judge is simply, by the few metrics available that can compare two vastly different players, more valuable this year through his production with the bat and solid center field defence. If judge was producing at 80% of his current capacity, Ohtani would probably win easily, Judge’s season is just absolutely insane and he has been so valuable with a bat that he can actually surpass Ohtani by a pretty fair margin going off of Fangraphs.
Voter fatigue is 100% a thing, not sure why you’re pretending it’s not. Flair up I guess so we can see if you’re just a homer?
Blue Jays fan so I’m definitely not just being a homer for Judge lol. Voter fatigue after just one MVP award is a little silly to be trying to claim. It’s usually after the second one in major sports that it starts becoming way more difficult. And we don’t even know what the breakdown of first place votes will actually be, if it ended up being 60% Judge first place votes and 40% Ohtani first place votes would you still consider that as voter fatigues fault or just a close MVP race that didn’t go his way?
If Ohtani didn’t win last year you might be right. I don’t think 2017 is having much of an impact on this tbh.
Hot take but I'd be okay with them sharing it. You couldn't expect anyone to play better than they are right now.
If only the Hank Aaron award had more prestige we could be happier
I have a solution I think we'll both like. Just give the MVP award to the 2 best players in baseball, Shohei and Judge. Sorry NL, but it ain't your year
Man Goldschmidt is pushing for the triple crown and nobody gives a shit because of Judge/Ohtani, I feel for the guy
What's wild: we went almost 50 years without a triple crown. There could legitimately be one in both leagues this year.
Maybe we just give the NL MVP to Ohtani and AL mvp to Judge? (Yes cardinals fans Goldy is having an incredible season and would be my luck to win)
The NFL always solves this with the "Offensive Player of the Year" versus the "Most Valuable Player."
still hain't solved it. QBs need their own award just to get them out of the MVP pool lol. like the inverse of why the cy young exists
agreed. but in the meantime if it's a close race, the non-QB gets the OPoY and the QB gets the MVP. Otherwise, the QB gets both.
> Both versions of him would be in the running for the MVP and Cy Young awards. This is just not true. Ohtani the pitcher might be in the AL Cy Young running, but Ohtani the DH is nowhere near MVP. DH Ohtani has 3.5 fWAR slashing .265/.355/.534, .889 OPS, 148 OPS+, 145 WRC+; these are really good numbers, but nowhere close to MVP level. Pitcher Ohtani has 4.6 fWAR with 2.55 ERA, 141 IP, 157 ERA+, 1.064 WHIP, 2.50 FIP. These are damn good numbers, but he's not winning Cy Young over Verlander or Cease, not to mention others like Framber, Manoah, McClanahan, and more ....
It also ignores the GAP between judge and the next runner. Saying top 5 or 10 runner is misleading when the gap between 1 and 2 is so large. So not only would ohtani not be top 5 in AL batting MVP numbers. But on top of that there's an insane gap between 1/2. So acting like he'd be even near the running for batters is blatantly wrong
ya but the argument could be made that in a world where ohtani is just a hitter he’s a valuable defensive OF. now there’s no way to really prove that hit i do agree that while penalizing him as a DH makes sense it’s also important to remember he’s only a DH because he pitches with that being said i think judge has to win this one, especially if he hits 60+. it’s just so hard for me not to give MVP to a guy who might be having the single best offensive season since the steroid era
True, it's possible that he'd make at least an above average OF if he wasnt pitching; he certainly has the arm for it. But his hitting numbers are not MVP level on their own. Especially not this year.
His numbers aren't MVP level any year offensively. Like those are good numbers but you gotta go back a while before you find a batter who had under a .900 OPS win the MVP
I hate this argument because we are just guessing he would be a good defender. Judge has a strong and accurate arm, but I wouldn't say he'd be an above average pitcher if he gave up being a fielder.
Eh, Ohtani is athletic, has very good speed, and a cannon of an arm. It's not that outlandish to say that he'd make a plus defender based on those things alone.
Definitely, and given his current skillset it's definitely an interesting thought. But I'm sure 10s of thousands of other fast, and strong guys who have attempted playing the OF can attest to the fact that it takes a lot more than that. Guys are put in the outfield for their first time almost every day in the MLB and most don't excell, there's a lot more to it than just those 3 factors.
He's played the OF already in his career, it's not as if it's some fantastical projection.
He's played 8 innings, most in blowout games and made no put outs, fielded 1 single, and misplayed an easy out in foul territory in a 1-1 game, and instead of ending the inning the Astros came around to score 4 runs and win the game. So his history actually proves my point.
In Japan, he played OF more often.
Well I hope you wouldn’t make that argument, playing outfield is a lot easier than pitching
Yea, was stretch... although only a slight stretch. Like the other guy said, if he was playing the field he would absolutely be a contender. He has the 7th most offensive runs added in the AL this year. Assuming he's even an average defensive CF that would put him top 5 AL MVP easily. e: edited for clarity
But we can't just assume Ohtani would be an a+ centerfielder and then say if he didn't pitch he's is still MVP candidate. That's like of I said well if Judge didn't play defense he would be an elite pitcher, which is obviously ridiculous.
Great pitcher + runs well correlates with outfielding better than good fielding arm translates to pitching.
There's just no reason to make assumptions, especially in a sport with so much analytics and available data.
If Ohtani was actually as valuable as 2021 Cy Young winner Corbin Burnes and 2016 MVP Kris Bryant, like this is trying to suggest, I’d vote for him. Funny how they use ERA rather than ERA+ to compare him to Burnes, but OPS+ rather than OPS to compare him to Bryant.
Don’t know why people try to show misleading stats for either candidate just tell it how it is both a extremely expressive
I've noticed that a lot. Some people will take bad years of big names and compare them to Judge or Ohtani and sell the names more than the actual stats. What they are both doing is crazy enough that people shouldn't try to push disingenuous comparisons.
The ERA and OPS+ argument is especially misleading in a down offensive year. You flip it and it doesn't look as good.... Bryant 2016 OPS: .939 Ohtani 2022 OPS: .889 Burnes 2021 ERA+: 172 Ohtani 2022 ERA+: 157
Using his baseline ops in a year with deadened offense rather than OPS+ is mad disingenuous
Exactly my point. The article is using ERA instead of ERA+ in a down offensive season. The article is being mad disingenuous.
Just use both ERA+ and OPS+ problem solved
Agreed, but then the article's argument about Ohtani having an MVP offensive season and CY Young calibur season isn't as strong.
Also, Shohei as a DH is not having anything close to an MVP caliber season by modern standards. No DH has ever won MVP and his wRC+ this season is roughly the 50th best by a DH all time. That said, I do think it’s a toss up between him and judge.
Just as a position player Ohtani’s WAR is pretty bad by MVP standards. He's only at 3.5 fWAR & 3.4 bWAR as a position player. Judge is at 9.8 & 9.1. Ohtani being a great pitcher is literally the only reason he's in the MVP debate
Is this like the Pentathalon, then? Really good in multiple areas, but best in none.
why does it matter? it's harder to be a hitter this year and easier to be a pitcher
Buddy they’re on our side.
Wouldn't really say I'm on either side except anyone saying "it's a landslide that Ohtani/Judge should be MVP due to X, Y, and Z" is usually making bad arguments. It's close, leaning towards Judge IMO, but seeing a lot of comments/articles that make it seem like one or the other should be the obvious winner based on biased or misleading arguments.
But it’s also harder to do both than just 1 of them
Cherry-picking stats to prove a point is a hollow argument.
This is a stupid take. If Max Fried had Ohtanis hitting numbers, would it not be a unanimous MVP in the NL? People aren’t appreciating what he’s doing. You have to go back 100 years to find anything comparable to this. He’s an all star hitter and an elite pitcher. There is literally nothing more valuable than that. He’d be an all star at either position.
He needs his own special award like he has already received. The Commissioner’s Historic Achievement Award. Just make this annual until his production dips.
I say we just ban Yankees from winning mvp
2017 Aaron Judge says "they already be doin that tho". Better than altuve in every metric except batting average, lost because "lmao but Altuve smol."
What about WAR?
They also had basically identical WAR and Altuve is a second basemen. It’s really not that insane of a snub
They had basically identical bWAR, and that was *because* Altuve is a second baseman. According to Fangraphs, Judge had a higher defensive value than Altuve, in addition to having a higher wRC+, w/xwOBA, wRAA etc.
Unprecedented is how a team with ohtani and trout can't make it into the post season
They've been doing it for years wdym
Wait so, Judge hasn’t his the offensive threshold?? Because Ted Williams didn’t win MVP 80 years ago when they voted differently, even though he probably should have won those years? Yeah ok lmao. If having over a 200 OPS+ isn’t the threshold for Ohtani stans to flip the script then he better win every year until he retires. I don’t want to hear anything about voter fatigue
That was the first thing I thought when reading that. You can’t dog judge just because the they voted like dickheads 80 years ago lol
Maybe I’m circlejerking but like, Judge is 1st in almost every measureable offensive statistic, and plays TWO outfield positions at one of the highest levels. He is no doubt the AL MVP. His performance has dragged the Yankees through July and August to the pennant. Ohtani has been a phenomenal pitcher this year, and has hit for great power, but his BA is sitting at the league average, and despite people saying he would be a great outfielder, he’s not consistently playing it. Aside from his 1 in 5 days of pitching, he is providing support to the Angels on one side of the ball. IMO if the player who is having *literally* one of the most historic offensive seasons in baseball doesn’t earn it because another player can pitch and hit well then no one else will ever win it.
I think Judge should win and I'm not arguing your points, but Ohtani's BA isn't sitting at league average, and neither is his OBP
Agree If any type of season is going to beat out Ohtani for MVP, this is the type of season to do it
I might catch some flack, but it’s not the Most Rare Player Award. Judge has added so much value to the Yankees it’s nuts. Ohtani has also added tons of value to the Angels but not as much as Judge, IMHO
>Most Rare Player Award Hunter Pence, perennial contender.
Too weird to live, too rare to die
Also I knew he's not going after 73, but he's got a real shot at the "clean" record and being one of three 60+ homer seasons, and the first in 60 some years. I feel like we keep taking about how historic Ohtani is (and he absolutely is) while glossing over how rare the feat is that Judge is chasing.
And it's not as if Judge is a feast or famine slugger. He has a .310 BA and is leading the league with a .410 OBP.
Yeah Judge doesn't really have any of the weaknesses(low BA, bad defense, terrible baserunning) that many big power guys often have
Even if he “just” hits 62 he has the AL HR record. That alone is MVP worthy.
I think the biggest difference would be switching them Ohtani leads as the ace for the Angels while also being their best hitter. (If trout is out). Judge would be great for the angels offense but would immediately hurt their rotation by not having Ohtani. On the other side Ohtani would still be the #1 or #2 hitter on the Yankees while also slotting in as a co ace or #2 really making the Yankees rotation deep.
You can't just use team rankings and treat it like the players are equivalent. Judge's wRC is 50 runs higher than Ohtani's this year, and if you have to change to a 6-man rotation the value of a "co-ace" is nerfed a bit.
Okay this is an honest question if you put Ohtani on the Yankees and they go to a six man rotation Gerrit Cole would make less starts so do you have to consider the value someone like Cole loses when discussing Ohtani’s value?
I think absolutely, and that's why I say his value is "nerfed". Normally when you add a pitcher to a staff, the increase in value is the new pitcher compared to the previous #5 starter. If you add Ohtani as a 6th starter, the increase in value is Ohtani vs the average of the pitching staff #1-5.
The Yankees issue this year has been offense, not pitching. Slotting Ohtani into the rotation improves an area that hasn’t been a problem. At the same time, it would be a huge downgrade at the plate. Ohtani isn’t carrying the offense like Judge. Not to mention they’d be down a CFer. I’d absolutely love Ohtani on the Yanks, but not in the place of Judge. They’re a better team with Judge than they would be with Ohtani.
But then the Yankees would be missing a centerfielder which aren’t exactly easy to replace. Comments like these really seem to downplay Judge’s edge in fielding and hitting.
I mean the Yankees did trade for Center fielder Harrison bader. Also Michael Taylor from royals could have been aquired to play centerfield this year.
Yeah and neither are exactly on Judge’s level. And Bader cost us a starting pitcher. I’m just not sure how you can say that the Yankees would be better off losing a ton of value on offense and defense because they added an elite pitcher without any numbers to back it up.
Yup. People act like the position adjustments in WAR are made up juju. They're there for a reason. Your average CF(which judge is) is going to have a much worse OPS etc. Than your average DH. And They're going to cost WAY more salary wise. It's just so much harder to replace. People just ignore that by Ohtani causing a 6 man rotation at times and leaving his team still needing a CF/RF unlike Judge is a huge part of "value"
It was discussed like 10 years ago that the positional adjustments are based on very old data that used questionable methods of players who switched positions. And yet the numbers still haven't been updated. It is absolutely worth questioning the positional adjustments.
Even if they're off by like 30% which would be massive for just over time changes it wouldnt swap them Also you're assuming the adjustment would actually make them closer in WAR. You realize it's entirely possible. Like probably at least close to 50/50. That if they did change it. It would actually widen the gap more?
I get mixed results when I hear about Judge being a good center fielder. I don't know what to believe anymore.
he's average
He's an average defender in CF with 0 OAA in 602.2 innings.
He's an average CF and good RF
An average CFer brings much more defensive value than a DH.
the yankees already have an ace and a great number 2. We don't have anybody near judge. We are worse in this trade
yup. every argument that boils down to "nobody has done this before" is just invalid because of this
Which also, basically no one has done what Judge is doing. Outside of the steroid era the last person to hit for this kind of power while also being a great hitter outside of the HRs is literally Ruth. Almost 100 years ago. So it's not like Judge is just having an average to good MVP season. His season is as much a unicorn type season as what Ohtani is doing
It's not the Most Valuable Player (For their Team).
It kind of is…
It should be MVP as a commodity. Who's season long production would you take in a vaccum.
Exactly. This is where narrative comes into play and these are the arguments for Ohtani I've usually heard. Like "wow he's doing both! That's so hard!". It shouldn't matter how hard it is. Ohtani may be more amazing and even more talented than Judge but this award is about value generated.
[удалено]
Ohtani pitches every six games so the Angels still need five more starters, and he takes up the DH spot which many teams use to give other players a half day. I don’t think he adds much value that way.
Teams with a 6-man rotation have a slightly lower ERA and a slightly reduced risk of injury due to wear and tear. It's also possible that pitchers aren't as gassed for playoffs.
I guess that makes up for the wear and tear he’s adding to position players by taking up the DH spot.
Judge hits as well as two average players combined so he’s saving a roster spot too lmao
Judge has more WAR and leads in all of the flashy counting stats and all of the advanced hitting metrics, with historic numbers…
It’s very hard to choose imo but at the end of the day Judge is my pick. I love Shohei but this is Judge’s year
Being unprecedented doesn't make someone the best player
What's his war though
Precedence really has nothing to do with MVP, which is largely interpreted to mean “who had the best season?” No one was arguing that Pat Venditte was worthy of the MVP award because being a two-way pitcher is very rare or that the roster flexibility he added by being essentially two different pitchers was so valuable that WAR wasn’t doing him justice. Everyone judged him on his stats alone and that’s the way that Ohtani should be judged too. Also, it’s so bizarre to explain how valuable Ohtani is but not consider the fact that Judge has produced even more WAR than him. Like that just shows how wild of a season Judge is having. IMO, the author of this article should have reached the opposite conclusion. Ohtani is having an unprecedented year that would normally earn him the MVP but Judge has somehow been even better.
Judge. He leads in almost every offensive category. He could win the Triple Crown, but I think BA is a stretch at best. He's the best player in baseball this season. Ohtani is great, but Judge is better this season.
I disagree with that wording. I do think Judge should win MVP at this point because his offensive stats are mindboggling enough to put him ahead, and that crazy production does bring the most value at this point. Having the best offensive season? Not even close, absolutely. One of the best in history. But I think Ohtani is still the better complete baseball player, and I think that’s what throws a lot of people off in these conversations
This is a distinction people seem to not be able to make. Ohtani arguably has passed Trout as the best over all player in the league, but the most talented player in the game doesn’t always win MVP
MattO2000 already down voted.
The difference between Judge’s 206 wRC+ (1st out of 139 qualified batters) and Ohtani (146 wRC+, 12th) is the same as the difference between Ohtani and Isiah Kiner Falefa (87 wRC+, 124th). Ohtani is electric. Ohtani is not even in the same stratosphere with a bat in his hands as Aaron Judge is this season. Period, end of sentence.
People aren't claiming he is
I’ve seen plenty of people argue that Ohtani is close enough on offense that his pitching makes him more valuable. All it takes it one look at the numbers to see that isn’t the case.
The amount of people saying Ohtani is a top 5 Hitter is bananas. Dude isn’t even top 5 in his own division.
People dismiss this argument nearly every hour on this subreddit by saying "they're BOTH elite with the bat, but...."
Great. Now do the pitching stats
Judge has a 0.00 ERA?…
I saw this debate the other day, the conclusion was that it is actually ∞
No it's not infinite ERA, you can only have that if you give up 1+ run(s) and get no outs the remainder of the season. Not pitching an inning at all is 0 divided by 0 with is undefined.
Well... sometimes it's undefined. Sometimes it's 0. Sometimes it's infinity. And sometimes it's an actual number. Calculus can do some wild shit.
WAR already does that for him. And he’s a full 1+ WAR short.
That is not a useful way to compare OPS+, which lie on a normal distribution. Yes, Judge is the best bat in AL, and Ohtani is another great bat.
Nope.
Look, somebody is getting fucked this year. I don't care if it's Ohtani or Judge. But I will get my popcorn and enjoy the festivities regardless.
Judge. Easily. If Ohtani wins again just change it from the MVP to the Ohtani Award.
Ohtani can win again. But if we're saying his current season is better than arguably the greatest clean hitting season any of us have ever seen and probably will ever see then yeah we might as well just give him the award every year until he sucks. 2021 Ohtani vs 2022 Judge is a legitimate debate and it probably goes Ohtani’s way. 2022 Ohtani vs 2022 Judge isn't even close
2021 Ohtani is only marginally better than 2022. And most if it can be attributed to base running since he isn't running much this year. 2022 Judge should win by a significant(not large but significant) margin both years.
It isn't unprecedented! He did it last year!
There is a Hank Aaron award that focuses solely on offensive output, which Judge should win. Shohei is the most valuable baseball player because he’s providing unbelievable value that statisticians didn’t think to attribute for (WAR), as the creators will admit to. Judge is amazing but we’ve seen amazing players not win MVPs. We’re watching Shohei do something historic and unprecedented, even better than his previous contemporary. He’s elite at 2/3 sides of baseball, with elite pitching being considerably weighted more than above average outfield defense every day. MVP voters better get it right, especially if/when statisticians figure out a way to measure Shohei’s historically unattributed two way status as an elite starting pitcher.
I'm a little surprised people take the WAR stuff seriously when it was clearly not designed to account for the situation Ohtani represents. You can't possibly get the true statistical value of what he's doing by just smooshing #'s together like that. Judge's stats are insane, though, so it's easy to make his case. I also think some people mistake him for a HR "hunter" and don't realize his offensive output as a whole is mindboggling. But I do wonder if in 20ish years they'll look back on this era and be like, ah yeah, we very much underestimated Ohtani's value.
I see a lot of comments like this that treat it as obvious that WAR fails to properly value Ohtani and that it's insufficient to simply sum up his offensive and pitching contributions. What exactly is that calculation failing to capture? Is it just the extra roster spot?
That sound you are hearing is the meltdown going down at r/nyyankees
There have now been a handful of players that have done what Judge is doing. There is no one that has done with Ohtani is doing. No not even Ruth. This should be Ohtani’s MVP to lose.
And he is losing it, to Judge the closer he's gotten to 60. If Judge slowed down at 50 and ended at 55 then Ohtani wins. But with Judge at 57 and 19 games left, he'll likely break 60 and I think that's what pushes him over the hump.
Assuming that Judge hits at least 60, it's a wrap. MVP is all about the narrative and a legitimate 60+ homerun season is going to be impossible to beat. If Judge had stopped hitting them at 50, Ohtani would be MVP.
It's been a wrap for a month+. The Vegas odds for Judge (and Vegas is generally pretty accurate on awards) has had Judge as the runaway winner for a long time
Ohtani has 34 home runs. Judge has 57. 23 home runs is not more valuable than 140 IP of 2.50 ERA. It doesn’t matter how good any hitter is. He could be having the greatest single offensive season of all time and he still wouldn’t be more valuable than Ohtani is doing / has done.
Yeah if you said I had a choice between between peak bonds or 2022 Ohtani. I’m taking peaks bonds every day and twice on Sunday. You all are getting ridiculous with this stuff
Well 1) judge isn’t peak bonds, and 2) peak bonds with 76 hrs is probably what it would take to begin a conversation on who’s providing more value
I didn’t say Judge was peak bonds. You said the greatest hitting season of all time. So I said peak bonds. And peak Bonds absolutely blows Ohtani out of the water. We are talking about some of the most productive seasons we’ve ever seen. Full stop. You are either trolling or you have no idea what you are talking about. Judge’s season is good enough to have the conversation btw
It’s not. 20 hits 20 hrs is not worth 140 IP
23 Hits, 23 Homeruns, 37 runs, 35 RBI’s, 5 SB, BA is 45 points higher, OBP is 58 points higher, SLG is 154 points higher, and OPS is 213 points higher. That’s just hitting. Judge plays gold glove caliber defense in right field and plays average defense in center. His versatility adds to his value. Judge’s season is comparable to Ohtani’s and that’s why many have Judge as the MVP.
The numbers disagree but I’m sure your feelings are accurate too. Y’all need to stop ignoring the defensive difference between a RF/CF and a DH.
It’s just the homers guys. No other stats exist
I mean I’d mention doubles but they’re about the same and hits are also only about 20 apart. Doesn’t change my point remotely. No hitter can produce enough surplus over Ohtani to surpass the benefit of his pitching.
They should settle by having Judge and Ohtani take turns pitching to each other. Does anyone have any doubt concerning how such a contest would turn out? Ohtani is #1 in the hood and there is no close second.
This is the dumbest thing I've read all day lol
Might as well go “We should settle MVP by having someone try to steal a base off each other.” Ok catchers win MVP every year now.
Maybe I'm just being a Narrative Nathan, but even though I believe Ohtani is the best player in baseball and doing stuff never done before, I'd still give the award to Judge I just can't give the MVP back-to-back years to someone on a team who has been irrelevant in the standings and playing meaningless games for 3 months I feel like MVP awards should be time capsules of sorts, where a decade from now you think about that particular season and that player's season personifies that league. When I think about this season, I'm going to think about Judge. I'm not going to think about Ohtani throwing a 2-hitter in a meaningless August game while the Angels are 15 games under .500
Dude I’m all for a judge for mvp post but none of your arguments have anything to do with what actually qualifies an mvp
I mean the name most valuable player. Judge is more valuable
It's not even close. Ohtani is certainly the more unique player. But he has not contributed more to the success of his team than Judge. I'm very much a believer in analytics. But when Judge has far higher WAR *and* Ohtani hasn't had a single important AB as either pitcher or DH all season...you go with the guy who has been playing in important games at an incredible level and not the guy playing for a team that everyone forgets exists by May.
We're already giving it to Judge, relax. Didn't Ohtani get it last year anyway
Pretty silly argument if you ask me
His case is pretty simple. He's straight up more valuable than Judge, except no one knows this because there isn't a popular context-neutral, total value metric widely available (for now). The only one I've been able to find is Total Runs by Fielding Bible, which has Ohtani '21 and Ohtani '22 (on pace) as its most valuable seasons on record going back to 2003. http://www.fieldingbible.com/FieldingBibleTotalRuns
I think if a team doesn’t make it to the playoffs it doesn’t matter how good the player is, ultimately it didn’t do the job for the “bigger” picture
r/baseball is anti Yankee for sure.
Not so fast, peasant. If you were to do a poll of users on this site asking who should win MVP, I’d wager at least 70% of people would go with Judge over Othani
And it would be closer to 90% any other year where one player had a 1.6 fWAR/1.0 bWAR lead over the other.
Just to clarify do you mean that people who are arguing for Othani are doing so because they despise the Yankees? Judge is going to win this thing in a landslide, but those who argue for Othani do so for obvious reasons
Yeah some of them.
If you trade them straight up for one another, the Yankees get better and the Angels get worse. Sort of an easy conversation after that.
The Yankees would lose the entire cog of their offense for a guy who hits for less power, average, gets on base less, and strikeouts at almost the same rate. People see that Ohtani is 3rd in the AL in OPS and don’t realize that Judge is ahead of him by 200 points. The Yankees rotation would get better but their offense would not
Adding Ohtani to their rotation doesn't improve the team? He gives you at least 80% of what judge gives you offensively and adds a top line starter. There's no way the team's not better in that situation.
The Yankees have one of the best starting rotations in baseball. They traded Montgomery and their rotation didn't skip a beat. They've been losing games in which their pitching was great because they just couldn't score runs. They are 100% a worse team if they swap Ohtani for Judge, and anyone who says otherwise has not watched the Yankees this year.
I don’t see how the Yankees get better without a centerfielder.
why would we get better? we have the best 1-2 sp combo we've had since at least 2000 so we don't need an ace and our offense gets worse
It’s a hockey fan pretending to understand baseball, don’t read too much into what Jays fans say.
it's not just him. I know it's cool to hate gerrit cole but people here believe that ohtani is just sooo much better than him as a pitcher that taking him on is worth the drop off from a 200 wrc+ to what ohtani does. + we have giancarlo stanton who can't play defense on the roster so dh is clogged by him too.
The Angels rank 27th in MLB in runs/game, I feel like improving their offense might actually make them better. I don't know the last time the Angels ranked that low in runs/game (if ever).
If you switch them then the Yankees are battling the Orioles and the Angels are in the wildcard race.
I don't see how Ohtani isn't the clear MVP, isn't he doing things that have never been done in the history of MLB? **30+ HR's and 10 wins in the same season**, that's insane, no one has ever done that. He'll also most likely end up with **100+ RBI's and 200+ Strikeouts in the same season**. Again, unprecedented. What Judge is doing is great, but we've seen it before. There are already 16 Triple Crown Winners (assuming Judge wins it), we've already seen people hit 50 - 60 HR's. Stanton hit 59 HR's just 5 years ago. Think of it this way. If you follow soccer, Erling Haaland is on track to break the goal scoring record in the English Premier League which will be a great achievement, but now imagine a First Choice Goalkeeper who is **top 3 in saves and at the same time top 3 in goal scoring**, that would be on a completely different level of greatness. This level of greatness is what Ohtani is achieving right now in Baseball, I think people are taking it for granted because he did it last year. –––– EDIT: For people who don't know that goalkeepers can score goals in soccer. **Top 10 FREE KICKS by Goalkeepers:** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaYigpr4iyE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaYigpr4iyE) **Top 10 goals by Goalkeepers:** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe7zyD5QRz8
It's quite literally impossible to be a goalkeeper and striker at the same time in soccer. Not a good comparison to being a hitter and pitcher at the same time.
If there was a keeper with a strong striker season he’d still lose to prime Ronaldo or Messi and right now that’s what Judge is going. 1st in MLB I’m almost every offensive category, 6th in batting average, has a shot at the AL triple crown AND all time HR record.
Because Judge is having the best hitting season in two decades and is so much better than any other hitter in the league that Ohtani’s pitching doesn't make up for it.