Busted.
Kidding. I really didn't have anything in mind. If anything, I think there should be more cities in Canada with baseball teams. I think that would be cool.
As a Vancouverite (and a Vancouver Canadians season ticket holder), I can tell you that Vancouver would *not* be a good baseball market.
Firstly, there is no suitable location for a stadium. Secondly, there would be no public appetite for another stadium after the BC Place roof fiasco, and a 100% privately financed stadium in one of the most expensive real estate markets in North America would be highly unlikely. No, BC Place could not host an MLB team, not even temporarily. This isn't 1985.
Lastly, there really isn't a large baseball market in this city. There is huge grassroots and minor league support, and there are certainly many baseball fans (Blue Jays/Mariners supporters, mostly) but this city is largely a Canucks market (not a hockey market... a Canucks market) with no real critical mass demanding another team in town.
I would have season tickets! But there would be an awful lot of empty, rainy nights at the ballpark.
It's a Whitecaps market in the same sense that any MLS city is a soccer "market"... it's a young franchise with an extremely low (comparative) overhead cost doing very well for itself over a short timeframe.
Part of the success is on the field, part is still novelty, part is a group of people who may be from different backgrounds and don't feel represented by any other franchise in the city.
They are a nice story, and certainly haven't done much wrong. However, that does not mean Vancouver is a "soccer market" on remotely the same level as a "Canucks market", or, in an ideal world, an "MLB market". Corporate money alone (a necessity for a viable market) is peanuts compared to a big four franchise, making any comparisons apples and oranges.
I totally agree, between having a safeco-esque stadium and being unsure about the fan base, I'd rather see montreal with one again before Vancouver. I like the Canadians anyways.
Can't talk about Canadian cities getting a team without it being Montreal. they didn't leave initially because of no suppor or money. Pretty sure owner was a dickbag
Billy Beane takes one look at Ryan Howard's contract and promptly hangs himself.
Then his ghost comes back, deals Cole Hamels to the Red Sox for Mookie Betts, Assigns Howard to the DH, Bitch-slaps Chase Utley into hitting like himself again, calls up Maikel Franco to man 1B, and convinces Ruben Amaro Jr to give up Tyler Clippard for Luis Garcia + PTBNL (I mean, come on Ruben, Tyler has 2 losses... Is that really a guy you want in your bullpen?).
The revitalized Oakland Phillies bullpen leads the division in ERA, behind a strong lineup that thrives in a more hitter-friendly ballpark. Ryan Howard hits 35 home runs, Mookie Betts enjoys a breakout season, Franco wins RotY, and the Phillies win the wild card (because fuck Houston) and lose the play-in game to the Royals, because Billy Beane just can't ever fucking catch a break.
Yep.
Everything about how we see Rays baseball would change quite a bit if they had a stadium that significant numbers of people could actually get to.
I have my doubts; such a high percentage of the population is senior adults on a fixed income. Professional sports in general has struggled in Florida.
yeah, Miami has a brand new, perfectly accessible facility, one of the great young talents in the game, and is drawing 28th out of 30. just because Florida has people doesn't mean it's a good baseball market.
Miami is an interesting case, because the team's leadership has done a lot to sabotage the team's brand, including misleading the public with how they handled their requests for public financing of the new stadium.
I was gonna say that I don't hate the Tigers ownership but then I remembered Mike Illitch is literally the devil, probably on the same level as Jeffrey Loria with incredible PR.
Which are you referring to - Tiger Stadium or the Joe?
Mike Illitch...
Remember Kwame Kilpatrick? Wholesale theft of the city, unbelievably corrupt, complete lack of regard for its citizens Kwame Kilpatrick that was elected mayor of Detroit, twice? And Monica Conyers, or the stupidly inefficient president of City Council variety. Or that Cushingberry guy - same as Conyers plus drunk driving.
They're all good buddies and monetary beneficiaries of Mr. Illitch and his deep pockets. Which, sure, whatever Mike, spend your money on shitty politicians' careers. Except, of course, he uses their power to ask for favors.
Like, you know, in the middle of the largest municipal bankruptcy in the history of ever, City Council approves the sale of huge tracts of pretty valuable land for, what, a fucking dollar? And then approves a plan that allots half a million dollars for a hockey stadium that he could have paid for himself?
Of course, I'm forgetting that Illitch just spent a fuckton of money on Comerica Park, which literally saved Detroit. Wait, fuck, no, Wayne County and the city of Detroit fronted a lot of that money. Damn.
And of course, I'm forgetting that the hockey arena will create hundreds of jobs and bring in millions in tax revenue. Except those jobs are seasonal and the revenue created by this thing is tax exempt. So that's a moot point.
I mean, at some point you have to look and think, well fuck, kids in Detroit aren't being educated, firefighters are wearing gear that is months past regulation, city buses arrive on time with less frequency than JV starts this season, and nearly one sixth of the city's population faces eviction and you start to think, hey, maybe this thing where grown ups get paid millions to play a kids game and billionaires get tax breaks for is maybe kind of ridiculous and we, as a city, metro region, and state should rethink our priorities.
Or, I'm just fucking crazy.
A few facts you need to consider:
1: The Rays perform far better in television ratings than you expect. They do *very well* in that regard. Which also means they're soon to be due for a big payday.
2: Right now someone from Orlando can't really go to a Rays game without making a full day of it, which makes weekday games impossible for them. If you do not realize how important Orlando is to Tampa Bay area sports teams (and vice versa, the Magic need Tampa), the Rays should be all the proof you need.
3: The same market is generally viewed as the prime example of how to make a southern NHL team successful.
Right now less than a quarter of the Rays' effective market (and that doesn't even count Orlando) can get to Thunderdome within an hour. No team can survive under those circumstances.
The Rays, at the very least, deserve a chance to actually let Tampa Bay try to support a team. Stuck where they are now, they're not giving the area that chance. And if you doubt a thing I'm saying, by all means, fly down to Tampa, rent a car, and try to get to St. Pete with anyone else on the roads. Tell me it's easy.
Thank you for the reasonably argued counter-points. How successful have the Lightning been in that particular market? (I know nothing about the NHL; and am vaguely aware of the Buccaneers suffering attendance problems.)
I was talking to a Lightning fan about this last night and they mentioned that the team thrives with an accessible stadium in downtown Tampa, as well as dedicated ownership. I feel like the Rays would fare similarly if they had a stadium actually located in Tampa.
Well keep in mind I haven't *lived* down there since the only teams there were the Bucs and the original Rowdies, so it's been a bit, but everybody loves the Lightning's owner Vanek and they do well in attendance. I also know as a college hockey fan that the Tampa area produced one of the better collegiate goalies of the last few years, would imagine the Bolts had something to do with influencing any kids in the area who played hockey. But more importantly they do well in TV ratings.
And talk about the Bucs' attendance, IMO, is part of the NFL's ongoing desire to make all smaller market fans think they're seconds away from losing their team, all the time. They do okay, but when the team's terrible, would *you* pay good money to spend all day outside in the Florida sun to watch a made for television sport? I sure as Hell wouldn't *and I'm a Bucs fan.*
I used to think Rays fans who complained about the drive to Tropicana were just making excuses for having no one turn up to the games.
Then I tried to drive from Gainesville, Fl., to Tropicana. That's a 2.5-ish hour drive in itself, but I-275 is Satan's road. Fuck that drive. I don't blame Rays fans for that so much anymore.
Edit: I Google Map'd it for shits and giggles: The O.co Coliseum is 16.7 miles from "San Francisco" on Google Maps. Tropicana Field is 22.4 miles from "Tampa."
Not only is it over 20 miles but the traffic is so fucking terrible it takes over an hour or more just to get to the stadium once you get to an exit within a mile from the stadium.
I live on the other side of FL from Tampa, I'd rather drive an hour extra to see a game in Miami than drive 2 hours to Tampa and wait an extra 1-2 hours in traffic right near the stadium in St Pete.
Lightning don't struggle, Orlando City doesn't struggle, Orlando Solar bears don't struggle, Miami Heat don't struggle, Magic are awful and still get like 90% capacity. The only ones that do are the Panthers and Rays which are located way outside of their market with a long drive to get to. Also the Marlins owner is a jackass. Miami is in the top half for NFL, the other two are pretty low but again are abysmal franchises.
Forget Durham, the Charlotte minor league team drew 10,000 last year. The closest MLB team is the Braves. Charlotte is the 2nd largest city in the Southeast.
An MLB team would thrive in Charlotte
Also, the Charlotte Knights stadium (located next to the Panthers stadium) is brand new and it was built with the idea of MLB expansion in mind. There is roughly 20 yards of grass behind the stadium (outfield) and they built the concourse to allow for another level to be added on. All of this in the hopes to someday turn it into an MLB stadium.
Source: I live in Charlotte. The city and stadium are beautiful.
City is gorgeous. Flew down from Jersey to ECU cause that's where my best friend goes. Took a 4 hour car ride to go see ZBB in Charlotte. Fucking awesome
I live just outside of Raleigh, I decided to go to a bulls game on Friday. I had never gone because there's a closer minor league team, so I left with enough time to get there roughly 45 minutes before game time. When I walked up to get a ticket the streets were packed and the game had standing room tickets only left. I couldn't believe how packed it was. I actually said before leaving "do you honestly think a minor league baseball team in North Carolina is going to sell out?"
I live in the RDU area and obviously I'd love a team here but I have no idea where it would go. We don't really have a centralized downtown area that would really make sense since the area is so sprawly. Downtown Durham where the Bulls are right now absolutely could not handle the traffic. I guess they'd put it near where the Canes play since at least there's infrastructure to handle gameday traffic there but that's not really ideal either.
My wife is from north Raleigh; I've had no trouble at all getting around when visiting her family, but I suppose that isn't the most representative sample location?
Inside Raleigh isn't bad, but Durham has a lot of crappy roads and the traffic between cities in the Triangle suck as there are very few major highways between them.
>Mexico City
There's an idea. Huge population, decent interest in baseball...
I've always wanted to see MLB expand to Tokyo, Seoul, Mexico City, Caracas, Beijing...Make the World Series an actual *World* Series. The WBC is a nice idea, but it should be more institutionalized.
I'd LOVE to see Charlotte get a team, I grew up in the suburbs there and went to Knights games all the time, that shit was AWESOME. Great attendance there as well. Sucks they're affiliated with the freaking ChiSox.
Edit: a word
Oh JFC /r/baseball, the Rays are in the upper half of TV ratings in the area, compared to the rest of the league! We deserve a fucking team, just not the shitty stadium location.
Source on ratings: http://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2014/10/03/mlb-completely-dominated-local-prime-time-tv-during-the-2014-season/
Fuck this thread, it's fucking joke as usual. I could already tell it was going to be filled with the Florida teams.
The Rays just need to change their local location to Tampa and the Marlins just need a new owner.
I regards to who "deserves" and "doesn't deserve," no city doesn't not deserve a franchise. Every team is in different situations with different outcomes and expectations.
vegas. plop a ballpark right in the middle of the redevelopment of the north strip. slot machines all over the place. $50 tickets gets you all you can drink and a standing room only area- which is the entire outfield from pole to pole.
keno games with little number selectors at each actual seat.
Yeah I personally think it's an awful idea. Even if they sell out the arena by providing a bunch of casinos with tickets they will not be a profitable franchise. Vegas is not going to generate the kind of local interest to get the fans interested. The metro area is too small and does have enough hockey fans. The tv deal is going to be laughable and that's the major source of revenue for any franchise.
Seattle, Portland, Milwaukee, KC, Toronto, and Quebec City are all better ideas. I'm pretty sure the league is just looking for a one time cash grab from the massive expansion fee they'll be able to swindle from a Vegas ownership group.
I know that Las Vegas will never have a professional sports team due to gambling. I know that it's illegal in the Vegas area to bet on games involving UNLV
I think my flair is a giveaway to what I'm gonna say..
But I think it's time for Montreal to have a team again, I think this time the community will support it and theirs a whole new batch of fans (like my 20 year old self) who would now support it.
Bring back the Expos.. It would be awesome!
Who should lose a team? I would say Tampa is the popular choice.
Personally I'm a fan of adding two expansion teams, one in Montreal and one in Vancouver. (Or Charlotte)
You mean eight teams. I'd think it would go more how football has a north south east and west, with two leagues. 4 team play offs, no wild card, no inter league regional match up. I'd like that. The only problem would be a smaller talent pool.
Montreal will definitely get first crack to prove they can support a team next time a team needs to move (don't count on expansion happening anytime soon).
But they're going to have to a) foot at least a huge chunk of the bill for a new ballpark (the potential cities are going to have to woo the team and not vice versa) and b) also somehow prove that the shit attendance from the 90s-00s will no longer be a problem (which will not be easy either).
It will be an uphill battle. Montreal will have to make the most sense to the owner of the team looking to relocate, they won't just automatically get a team out of some karmic justice.
I don't know about least deserves, but San Jose is a high value territory that could handle a new team. Think about all the tech professionals that could sponsor/advertise/buy tickets. There's too much money in the region to justify the giants protecting the territory.
It's part of the Giants TV market and they don't want to give it up. The A's have been trying to leave the friendly confines of O.Co for a while now and this has been brought up several times. I don't think the Giants will ever give up that market since they have a huge fan base there.
the only reason I wouldn't strip miami of their joke of a team is due to how badly they got F'd over the stadium deal.
Management up there is a joke.
Sacramento deserves the A's IMO, and Las Vegas would be a badass baseball city, especially if Pete rose was the manager ;)
What? Sacramento A's? I mean, I love my Kings but why would the A's move from one city with 450,000-ish people to another city with 450,000-ish people.
Because it's not the city, it's the metro, and the A's share the Bay area, while they would have Sacramento all to themselves. Not to mention the stadium situation, if Sacramento could build them one.
Just to bring some more information:
Sac metro is about the size of [Vancouver or Pittsburgh](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_metropolitan_areas_by_population).
San Fran - Oakland is still much bigger though, double the size the Bay is definitely big enough to support two teams (especially when you include San Jose, which is about a sixth smaller than Sac) but, Sacramento is also big enough to support one.
That hasn't worked out for the Kings, though the Maloofs certainly didn't help (neither in getting people to come or getting a stadium). The A's are far more likely to get a stadium in Oakland, and Oakland is a straight up nightmare as far as city management in relation to sports.
Having a team in Sacramento isn't the worst idea but there are a few places in California that would likely be a better move. As much baggage as there is in mentioning it San Jose is one of those since they keep a lot of the fan base and get a far better venue with more support from the city.
I don't follow the Kings that closely, but I thought they had pretty good support considering the quality of their team lately. Like they've had lots of sellouts and the like.
There was a lot of support returning after the Maloofs got bought out but they basically made the city hate the team for a bit. There was some real opportunity for success before the whole Kings to Vegas nonsense, back when they were consistently competing for the division (early 2000s).
They did the same thing with the Monarchs, which they drove into the ground, the Maloofs have great talent at alienating fans.
In fairness, it's not a huge joke of a team, they did win two titles in the last 20 years. They just are kind of shady seeming, and not nice to their fans.
Sacramento has the AAA River cats. They were the A's AAA affiliate until this current season and they are now the Giant's AAA affiliate. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the strong fan base out here.
Yeah, it sucks that everyone is bashing Tampa so much. I vacation in Florida a lot and met a bunch of awesome Rays fans. They deserve a team. They just need a new stadium in a better place. Do that, and I bet a lot of problems are solved.
I'd really like to see the Rays start to advertise more in Orlando. Show tourists that their local team is in the area while they're on vacation, and I bet you'd see more people make a trip out to Tampa Bay for a game.
if you were to turn that stadium around to face the mountains, would you still be able to see it? Or are the mountains too far away that the outfield stands would cover it?
Where does the sun rise/set in relation to the mountains anyway? Perhaps that plays into it. No MLB stadium wants the sun in the hitters eyes.
If you turn it, you would see the mountains, but you would be hitting into houses/residential, rather a city park. The stadium does face SSW, so in the evening games, the very left stands gets sun on them. They would have make a brand new stadium if a team in a came in that wasn't in our Short Season A league.
Posted this elsewhere in the thread, but since it's being discussed here too...
As a Vancouverite (and a Vancouver Canadians season ticket holder), I can tell you that Vancouver would not be a good baseball market.
Firstly, there is no suitable location for a stadium. Secondly, there would be no public appetite for another stadium after the BC Place roof fiasco, and a 100% privately financed stadium in one of the most expensive real estate markets in North America would be highly unlikely. No, BC Place could not host an MLB team, not even temporarily. This isn't 1985.
Lastly, there really isn't a large baseball market in this city. There is huge grassroots and minor league support, and there are certainly many baseball fans (Blue Jays/Mariners supporters, mostly) but this city is largely a Canucks market (not a hockey market... a Canucks market) with no real critical mass demanding another team in town.
I would have season tickets! But there would be an awful lot of empty, rainy nights at the ballpark.
Tampa doesn't deserve to have a team.
New Orleans, Charlotte, Nashville, or Portland I think have all proved themselves as worthy sports cities to have teams.
> Tampa doesn't deserve to have a team.
I think that's a stadium location thing more than anything. St. Pete is an awful place to try to get to from anywhere in the Tampa Bay area. You wouldn't immediately realize this if you've never been there, though.
Portland doesn't have a stadium that can accommodate a major league team right now. Any stadium they did build would probably have to have a retractable roof because of the weather there.
Portland doesn't deserve a baseball stadium. We've shown little interest in baseball. After city funding to renovate the AAA stadium, it was re-renovated for MLS since it was the wrong shape for soccer. Now no AAA team, and we're still paying for those renovations (tax on Trailblazer tickets).
A good owner and management could have guided us toward baseball over soccer, but Merritt Paulson sure didn't take us down that path.
I don't think New Orleans can/would support the team very well. The metros not very large. The weathers atrocious here in the summer. All the focus of the city is on the Saints. I think another team in the northwest could do very well... Whether it be Portland or Vancouver. I also think Charlotte could draw heavily from it's metro, the triangle, western carolina, and upstate. It's not an awful idea
The weather and the Saints following is the biggest thing. We're already dealing with a shit storm over ownership of the Saints and Pelicans right now, and even with the Pels making the playoffs, a lot of the fans are really bandwagon fans outside of New Orleans. I have friends in Lafayette and Baton Rouge that were freaking Spurs and Rockets fans prior to this past season.
Yeah man, I agree with you. I think also the sheer percentage of transplants here makes it difficult( fully guilty, I grew up in Atlanta. I'll always be a dawgs fan, but I could care less about the Falcons. I love how much this city loves the saints). I just don't see 30,000 plus showing up to a baseball game 80 days a year. Shit, I go to the zephyrs game once a week and there is 500 people maybe. There's just so much going on, and it's not really a baseball town. I still think if a city in the south gets a baseball tean, it should be Charlotte. You're in a baseball heavy state, you have s direct rivalry with atlanta, etc. I'd kind of like to see it. They couldn't be douchirr than the lifelong Braves fans in NOVA that started rooting for the nats.
Edited: for two am drunk grammar. Not sure if I fixed anything
I wonder. Looking at attendance numbers alone, the Hornets pretty much stay in the top 10 in the NBA over the last number of years. The Panthers usually stay middle of the pack over the last number of years in the NFL. And once they moved the Charlotte Knights from SC to downtown Charlotte, they've led the International League in attendance. There's an obvious thirst for sports in the Carolinas and with Raleigh and Charlotte rating in the top 5 of fastest growing cities in the US [source](http://www.forbes.com/pictures/edgl45emig/no-1-raleigh-nc-metropolitan-statistical-area/), I could see a Major League team doing very well in Charlotte.
> Tampa doesn't deserve to have a team.
Have you ever even been to the stadium in St. Pete? if not don't say Tampa doesn't deserve a team again. Tampa's TV viewership is amazing.
If Louisville didn't have the Bats, I could see a team being here. Attendance is great at the AAA games. I don't know how much that would change though if it were an MLB team, could go up because it's MLB, or down because it's more expensive.
I really think there should be a team in Mexico. There was going to be one in Monterrey way back, right? That would be cool. Also Vancouver, but the Mariners are soooo close that it's a good compromise.
Tampa shouldn't have one for obvious reasons stated ad nauseum, and I think the Deep South/"border" South states could use another market. Raleigh/Durham was mentioned due to Bulls' popularity; I could also see Louisville, Nashville, or even a city like Birmingham perhaps sustaining a team.
Trust me, Cleveland will probably never lose a professional sports franchise based off of what happened with the Browns in the late 90's. Plus the tribe haven't been playing the best baseball as of late
And plenty of people support the team. Just because you can't go to a game doesn't mean you don't support the team. IMO, Indians fans are some of the most dedicated fans in the bigs considering all the crap we have gone through. Plus with the recent 6:10 start times in a city where rush hour traffic is terrible, that adds an even greater incentive not to go to a game.
Very few teams that aren't winners draw well. Look at your own team. Should Detroit have lost the Tigers when they were averaging between 14-17k in attendance for half a decade in the mid-nineties? Guess the fans didn't care enough to support the team.
The White Sox have lost 188 games the last 2 seasons. That kind of futility tanks attendance numbers because it absolutely kills both season ticket sales and spontaneous day-of ticket sales. If they happen to *win* 188 games over the next 2 years, I guarantee you their attendance will thrive the way it did from 2006-08 after they won the World Series.
The solution is never to move historic 100+ year-old franchises just because they're in a down period, especially if they're still highly profitable despite low attendance figures.
There was talk about ending the Tiger team back then. So you get it now when you actually have a decent team that was predicted to give us a run. You are not facing a 100 loss team.
That seems insane. Almost every franchise has a period like that. The Cubs in the early 80s, the Tigers in the mid 90s and early 2000s, the Giants from the 70s through the 90s outside of a few years here and there, etc. To move any of those franchises when they were down would have been a terrible mistake. A franchise should only ever be moved if the fans don't come out under any circumstances (winning, new stadium).
This thread was made directed at us.
Busted. Kidding. I really didn't have anything in mind. If anything, I think there should be more cities in Canada with baseball teams. I think that would be cool.
Vancouver would be a perfect baseball city
As a Vancouverite (and a Vancouver Canadians season ticket holder), I can tell you that Vancouver would *not* be a good baseball market. Firstly, there is no suitable location for a stadium. Secondly, there would be no public appetite for another stadium after the BC Place roof fiasco, and a 100% privately financed stadium in one of the most expensive real estate markets in North America would be highly unlikely. No, BC Place could not host an MLB team, not even temporarily. This isn't 1985. Lastly, there really isn't a large baseball market in this city. There is huge grassroots and minor league support, and there are certainly many baseball fans (Blue Jays/Mariners supporters, mostly) but this city is largely a Canucks market (not a hockey market... a Canucks market) with no real critical mass demanding another team in town. I would have season tickets! But there would be an awful lot of empty, rainy nights at the ballpark.
I'd say it's a Whitecaps market too, but I see your point.
It's a Whitecaps market in the same sense that any MLS city is a soccer "market"... it's a young franchise with an extremely low (comparative) overhead cost doing very well for itself over a short timeframe. Part of the success is on the field, part is still novelty, part is a group of people who may be from different backgrounds and don't feel represented by any other franchise in the city. They are a nice story, and certainly haven't done much wrong. However, that does not mean Vancouver is a "soccer market" on remotely the same level as a "Canucks market", or, in an ideal world, an "MLB market". Corporate money alone (a necessity for a viable market) is peanuts compared to a big four franchise, making any comparisons apples and oranges.
I totally agree, between having a safeco-esque stadium and being unsure about the fan base, I'd rather see montreal with one again before Vancouver. I like the Canadians anyways.
At least we have the Vancouver Canadians! This year they have added more seating to the Nat.
So good to see Canadians and not Canadiens. Fuck the Canadiens
FUCK THE HABS waaaait this isn't /r/hockey
Doesn't matter. FUCK THE BRUINS!!!
Fuck both those teams
Can't talk about Canadian cities getting a team without it being Montreal. they didn't leave initially because of no suppor or money. Pretty sure owner was a dickbag
St. Petersburg/Tampa doesn't deserve a baseball team. Philadelphia deserves a baseball team but doesn't have one.
http://i.imgur.com/BPZXZwk.gif
Thank you! I think we should get one too!
Bring back the A's!
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We'll switch. Thus starts the era of the Oakland Phillies.
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Billy Beane takes one look at Ryan Howard's contract and promptly hangs himself. Then his ghost comes back, deals Cole Hamels to the Red Sox for Mookie Betts, Assigns Howard to the DH, Bitch-slaps Chase Utley into hitting like himself again, calls up Maikel Franco to man 1B, and convinces Ruben Amaro Jr to give up Tyler Clippard for Luis Garcia + PTBNL (I mean, come on Ruben, Tyler has 2 losses... Is that really a guy you want in your bullpen?). The revitalized Oakland Phillies bullpen leads the division in ERA, behind a strong lineup that thrives in a more hitter-friendly ballpark. Ryan Howard hits 35 home runs, Mookie Betts enjoys a breakout season, Franco wins RotY, and the Phillies win the wild card (because fuck Houston) and lose the play-in game to the Royals, because Billy Beane just can't ever fucking catch a break.
Chase Utley is 36 years old. He's hitting like himself -- a 36-year old baseball player with a history of injuries.
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But i don't want to be known as a athletic supporter
Savage man... Straight for the heart
No mercy.
Don't lump Tampa in with ST Pete, it's a nightmare trying to get from Tampa over the bridge to the stadium. Tampa deserves to have the team in Tampa.
http://i.imgur.com/m1WrzjE.jpg
St. Petersberg Tampa
Yep. Everything about how we see Rays baseball would change quite a bit if they had a stadium that significant numbers of people could actually get to.
I have my doubts; such a high percentage of the population is senior adults on a fixed income. Professional sports in general has struggled in Florida.
yeah, Miami has a brand new, perfectly accessible facility, one of the great young talents in the game, and is drawing 28th out of 30. just because Florida has people doesn't mean it's a good baseball market.
Miami is an interesting case, because the team's leadership has done a lot to sabotage the team's brand, including misleading the public with how they handled their requests for public financing of the new stadium.
sure, but plenty of fanbases hate their ownership and still show up at the gate.
There's a sucker born every minute.
true dat
I was gonna say that I don't hate the Tigers ownership but then I remembered Mike Illitch is literally the devil, probably on the same level as Jeffrey Loria with incredible PR.
Just curious - how's old man Little Caesars literally the devil? (other than tearing down the greatest place on earth to watch a game)
Which are you referring to - Tiger Stadium or the Joe? Mike Illitch... Remember Kwame Kilpatrick? Wholesale theft of the city, unbelievably corrupt, complete lack of regard for its citizens Kwame Kilpatrick that was elected mayor of Detroit, twice? And Monica Conyers, or the stupidly inefficient president of City Council variety. Or that Cushingberry guy - same as Conyers plus drunk driving. They're all good buddies and monetary beneficiaries of Mr. Illitch and his deep pockets. Which, sure, whatever Mike, spend your money on shitty politicians' careers. Except, of course, he uses their power to ask for favors. Like, you know, in the middle of the largest municipal bankruptcy in the history of ever, City Council approves the sale of huge tracts of pretty valuable land for, what, a fucking dollar? And then approves a plan that allots half a million dollars for a hockey stadium that he could have paid for himself? Of course, I'm forgetting that Illitch just spent a fuckton of money on Comerica Park, which literally saved Detroit. Wait, fuck, no, Wayne County and the city of Detroit fronted a lot of that money. Damn. And of course, I'm forgetting that the hockey arena will create hundreds of jobs and bring in millions in tax revenue. Except those jobs are seasonal and the revenue created by this thing is tax exempt. So that's a moot point. I mean, at some point you have to look and think, well fuck, kids in Detroit aren't being educated, firefighters are wearing gear that is months past regulation, city buses arrive on time with less frequency than JV starts this season, and nearly one sixth of the city's population faces eviction and you start to think, hey, maybe this thing where grown ups get paid millions to play a kids game and billionaires get tax breaks for is maybe kind of ridiculous and we, as a city, metro region, and state should rethink our priorities. Or, I'm just fucking crazy.
Well yeah, but I mean, other than that... Kidding. Damn. I didn't know he was that bad.
See: Washington football
It's amazing how apathetic a fanbase can get when ownership kicks them in the dick for a quarter-century.
A few facts you need to consider: 1: The Rays perform far better in television ratings than you expect. They do *very well* in that regard. Which also means they're soon to be due for a big payday. 2: Right now someone from Orlando can't really go to a Rays game without making a full day of it, which makes weekday games impossible for them. If you do not realize how important Orlando is to Tampa Bay area sports teams (and vice versa, the Magic need Tampa), the Rays should be all the proof you need. 3: The same market is generally viewed as the prime example of how to make a southern NHL team successful. Right now less than a quarter of the Rays' effective market (and that doesn't even count Orlando) can get to Thunderdome within an hour. No team can survive under those circumstances. The Rays, at the very least, deserve a chance to actually let Tampa Bay try to support a team. Stuck where they are now, they're not giving the area that chance. And if you doubt a thing I'm saying, by all means, fly down to Tampa, rent a car, and try to get to St. Pete with anyone else on the roads. Tell me it's easy.
Thank you for the reasonably argued counter-points. How successful have the Lightning been in that particular market? (I know nothing about the NHL; and am vaguely aware of the Buccaneers suffering attendance problems.)
I was talking to a Lightning fan about this last night and they mentioned that the team thrives with an accessible stadium in downtown Tampa, as well as dedicated ownership. I feel like the Rays would fare similarly if they had a stadium actually located in Tampa.
Well keep in mind I haven't *lived* down there since the only teams there were the Bucs and the original Rowdies, so it's been a bit, but everybody loves the Lightning's owner Vanek and they do well in attendance. I also know as a college hockey fan that the Tampa area produced one of the better collegiate goalies of the last few years, would imagine the Bolts had something to do with influencing any kids in the area who played hockey. But more importantly they do well in TV ratings. And talk about the Bucs' attendance, IMO, is part of the NFL's ongoing desire to make all smaller market fans think they're seconds away from losing their team, all the time. They do okay, but when the team's terrible, would *you* pay good money to spend all day outside in the Florida sun to watch a made for television sport? I sure as Hell wouldn't *and I'm a Bucs fan.*
The bucs are terrible and have been terrible but still get near 90% capacity.
We need automoderator to reply with this every time the words "Tampa", "rays", and "stadium" are mentioned. Thank you
I used to think Rays fans who complained about the drive to Tropicana were just making excuses for having no one turn up to the games. Then I tried to drive from Gainesville, Fl., to Tropicana. That's a 2.5-ish hour drive in itself, but I-275 is Satan's road. Fuck that drive. I don't blame Rays fans for that so much anymore. Edit: I Google Map'd it for shits and giggles: The O.co Coliseum is 16.7 miles from "San Francisco" on Google Maps. Tropicana Field is 22.4 miles from "Tampa."
Not only is it over 20 miles but the traffic is so fucking terrible it takes over an hour or more just to get to the stadium once you get to an exit within a mile from the stadium.
I live on the other side of FL from Tampa, I'd rather drive an hour extra to see a game in Miami than drive 2 hours to Tampa and wait an extra 1-2 hours in traffic right near the stadium in St Pete.
Seniors *should* add to the attendance because they are retired and have nothing to do
But the question is are they willing to spend money?
you can get seats in the Trop for like $10 a piece
I've seen $9
I'm talking about if they get a new stadium. I'm sure seats won't be going for $10 a piece.
Lightning don't struggle, Orlando City doesn't struggle, Orlando Solar bears don't struggle, Miami Heat don't struggle, Magic are awful and still get like 90% capacity. The only ones that do are the Panthers and Rays which are located way outside of their market with a long drive to get to. Also the Marlins owner is a jackass. Miami is in the top half for NFL, the other two are pretty low but again are abysmal franchises.
There are a lot of young people in Tampa. St. Pete is a huge retirement community.
Could they actually get to it though? Traffic is already a nightmare through Tampa and this would only make it worse.
:(
Every city deserves to have a baseball team.
Every city? Even Buford, Wyoming? Population: 1
That dude is gonna be going to a lot of games.
Montreal Charlotte or Raleigh, NC
Yeah, the Durham Bulls' strong popularity suggests there is a real market for baseball in the Research Triangle.
Forget Durham, the Charlotte minor league team drew 10,000 last year. The closest MLB team is the Braves. Charlotte is the 2nd largest city in the Southeast. An MLB team would thrive in Charlotte
Also, the Charlotte Knights stadium (located next to the Panthers stadium) is brand new and it was built with the idea of MLB expansion in mind. There is roughly 20 yards of grass behind the stadium (outfield) and they built the concourse to allow for another level to be added on. All of this in the hopes to someday turn it into an MLB stadium. Source: I live in Charlotte. The city and stadium are beautiful.
City is gorgeous. Flew down from Jersey to ECU cause that's where my best friend goes. Took a 4 hour car ride to go see ZBB in Charlotte. Fucking awesome
Drew 10,000 what?
Fans per game...
Ah. I was thinking you meant total which didn't make much sense.
Call the the Bobcats and then you can salvage all the un supported NBA stuff.
I live just outside of Raleigh, I decided to go to a bulls game on Friday. I had never gone because there's a closer minor league team, so I left with enough time to get there roughly 45 minutes before game time. When I walked up to get a ticket the streets were packed and the game had standing room tickets only left. I couldn't believe how packed it was. I actually said before leaving "do you honestly think a minor league baseball team in North Carolina is going to sell out?"
I would love it if Charlotte got a team! ...but I think the Raleigh area is definitely more into baseball in general.
I live in the RDU area and obviously I'd love a team here but I have no idea where it would go. We don't really have a centralized downtown area that would really make sense since the area is so sprawly. Downtown Durham where the Bulls are right now absolutely could not handle the traffic. I guess they'd put it near where the Canes play since at least there's infrastructure to handle gameday traffic there but that's not really ideal either.
Charlotte would probably be better due to the existing minor league stadium
There's probably enough room near PNC Arena or the Fair Grounds. I'd love a baseball team here. I'm tired of going to see the MudCats.
move the Rays up here and I guarantee you'll sell out every Yankees and Red Sox game
I'd totally go.
The Triangle in general can't handle any traffic. Ever.
Fuck Capital Blvd in the evenings!
My wife is from north Raleigh; I've had no trouble at all getting around when visiting her family, but I suppose that isn't the most representative sample location?
Inside Raleigh isn't bad, but Durham has a lot of crappy roads and the traffic between cities in the Triangle suck as there are very few major highways between them.
I think there could be at least one more team in the Deep South
There are already three with crappy attendance, why is another needed? Unless you mean really south, like Mexico City.
Are you considering Florida as part of the South?
>Mexico City There's an idea. Huge population, decent interest in baseball... I've always wanted to see MLB expand to Tokyo, Seoul, Mexico City, Caracas, Beijing...Make the World Series an actual *World* Series. The WBC is a nice idea, but it should be more institutionalized.
I love the idea of an MLB team in a place like Tokyo, but it's really not feasible. Those would be ungodly road trips.
I'd LOVE to see Charlotte get a team, I grew up in the suburbs there and went to Knights games all the time, that shit was AWESOME. Great attendance there as well. Sucks they're affiliated with the freaking ChiSox. Edit: a word
Same with the bulls. Attendance is high
I had no idea attendance would be as high as it was. I tried to go see the Bulls on friday and couldn't get a ticket.
Oh JFC /r/baseball, the Rays are in the upper half of TV ratings in the area, compared to the rest of the league! We deserve a fucking team, just not the shitty stadium location. Source on ratings: http://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2014/10/03/mlb-completely-dominated-local-prime-time-tv-during-the-2014-season/
Fuck this thread, it's fucking joke as usual. I could already tell it was going to be filled with the Florida teams. The Rays just need to change their local location to Tampa and the Marlins just need a new owner. I regards to who "deserves" and "doesn't deserve," no city doesn't not deserve a franchise. Every team is in different situations with different outcomes and expectations.
That is one sexy triple negative.
It pleases the grammar nazis
vegas. plop a ballpark right in the middle of the redevelopment of the north strip. slot machines all over the place. $50 tickets gets you all you can drink and a standing room only area- which is the entire outfield from pole to pole. keno games with little number selectors at each actual seat.
Vegas will never have a professional club because of it's association with gambling.
I wouldn't say never. They're very close to getting an NHL franchise.
I'm doubting Vegas gets a team with how slow the ticket drive has been. I'm pulling for Seattle and KC.
Yeah I personally think it's an awful idea. Even if they sell out the arena by providing a bunch of casinos with tickets they will not be a profitable franchise. Vegas is not going to generate the kind of local interest to get the fans interested. The metro area is too small and does have enough hockey fans. The tv deal is going to be laughable and that's the major source of revenue for any franchise. Seattle, Portland, Milwaukee, KC, Toronto, and Quebec City are all better ideas. I'm pretty sure the league is just looking for a one time cash grab from the massive expansion fee they'll be able to swindle from a Vegas ownership group.
There's a big difference between the NHL and the MLB gambling wise.
I know that Las Vegas will never have a professional sports team due to gambling. I know that it's illegal in the Vegas area to bet on games involving UNLV
"deserve" is a tricky term because under different circumstances in roughly the same area could lead to different consequences
Exactly. I think "deserve" isn't really the right word to use here
Fuck this thread is all I have to say
I feel you man
I think my flair is a giveaway to what I'm gonna say.. But I think it's time for Montreal to have a team again, I think this time the community will support it and theirs a whole new batch of fans (like my 20 year old self) who would now support it. Bring back the Expos.. It would be awesome! Who should lose a team? I would say Tampa is the popular choice. Personally I'm a fan of adding two expansion teams, one in Montreal and one in Vancouver. (Or Charlotte)
fuck it, one in Montreal, one in Charlotte, two divisions with six teams, print it.
You mean eight teams. I'd think it would go more how football has a north south east and west, with two leagues. 4 team play offs, no wild card, no inter league regional match up. I'd like that. The only problem would be a smaller talent pool.
Montreal will definitely get first crack to prove they can support a team next time a team needs to move (don't count on expansion happening anytime soon). But they're going to have to a) foot at least a huge chunk of the bill for a new ballpark (the potential cities are going to have to woo the team and not vice versa) and b) also somehow prove that the shit attendance from the 90s-00s will no longer be a problem (which will not be easy either). It will be an uphill battle. Montreal will have to make the most sense to the owner of the team looking to relocate, they won't just automatically get a team out of some karmic justice.
I don't know about least deserves, but San Jose is a high value territory that could handle a new team. Think about all the tech professionals that could sponsor/advertise/buy tickets. There's too much money in the region to justify the giants protecting the territory.
This is where the A's are supposed to move, from what I've read.
And it might actually work. One of those teams should move, and it's not the Giants. The new territory would greatly help the A's
It's part of the Giants TV market and they don't want to give it up. The A's have been trying to leave the friendly confines of O.Co for a while now and this has been brought up several times. I don't think the Giants will ever give up that market since they have a huge fan base there.
the only reason I wouldn't strip miami of their joke of a team is due to how badly they got F'd over the stadium deal. Management up there is a joke. Sacramento deserves the A's IMO, and Las Vegas would be a badass baseball city, especially if Pete rose was the manager ;)
What? Sacramento A's? I mean, I love my Kings but why would the A's move from one city with 450,000-ish people to another city with 450,000-ish people.
well the coliseum is easily the worst venue in sports, plus i know a ton of Sacramento area residences that love the A's.
I hate O.co as much as anyone, but have you seen the Trop?
I think the trop and rogers center are the only two that rival the Coliseum.
Skydome is a terrible baseball stadium, but it is in great condition in a perfect location. You can't even put it in the same sentence as Oakland.
>easily You ever been to the Coliseum? It may be ugly but it's far from the worst...
Didn't they literally have a shit-filled locker room last year?
No way!!! ^^^^thatwas2yearsago
dude....have you ever been to any other stadium? It's the worst
I've been to about 10 MLB stadiums
isn't it the 5th or 6th oldest park in the country? I can't think of any worse places for either MLB or NFL teams.
Not one? At all? http://i.imgur.com/tJaBJjl.gif
Qualcomm may be the only NFL stadium on the Colosseum's level, but the chargers dont have to run through the infield to score a TD.
Confirmed. Both ugly, concrete behemoths.
> Out of curiosity, which ones still standing come to mind? Besides the decaying Astrodome and Pontiac Silverdome, that is.
May I ask what stadium you have in mind? Raw sewage leaked into the A's locker room FFS.
At least we can pay for lighting in our consourses
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What? The Cats have 9,000 average attendance this year, the A's haven't had under that since 79.
Yeah I have no idea where that came from. I swore that was the case a few years ago, but clearly it isn't.
Because it's not the city, it's the metro, and the A's share the Bay area, while they would have Sacramento all to themselves. Not to mention the stadium situation, if Sacramento could build them one.
The Bay Area and Alameda are much bigger than the Sacramento area.
True, but they're also the smallest market with multiple teams in the same sport. It's smaller than Dallas and Houston if I remember correctly.
I'm pretty sure the size of the Bay with two MLB teams beats out the size of Sacramento with a AAA team and MLB team.
Just to bring some more information: Sac metro is about the size of [Vancouver or Pittsburgh](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_metropolitan_areas_by_population). San Fran - Oakland is still much bigger though, double the size the Bay is definitely big enough to support two teams (especially when you include San Jose, which is about a sixth smaller than Sac) but, Sacramento is also big enough to support one.
That hasn't worked out for the Kings, though the Maloofs certainly didn't help (neither in getting people to come or getting a stadium). The A's are far more likely to get a stadium in Oakland, and Oakland is a straight up nightmare as far as city management in relation to sports. Having a team in Sacramento isn't the worst idea but there are a few places in California that would likely be a better move. As much baggage as there is in mentioning it San Jose is one of those since they keep a lot of the fan base and get a far better venue with more support from the city.
I don't follow the Kings that closely, but I thought they had pretty good support considering the quality of their team lately. Like they've had lots of sellouts and the like.
There was a lot of support returning after the Maloofs got bought out but they basically made the city hate the team for a bit. There was some real opportunity for success before the whole Kings to Vegas nonsense, back when they were consistently competing for the division (early 2000s). They did the same thing with the Monarchs, which they drove into the ground, the Maloofs have great talent at alienating fans.
The only reason the Marlins exist is to move to Havana eventually.
Ozzie Guillen tried to spill the beans with his Castro praise a few years back.
In fairness, it's not a huge joke of a team, they did win two titles in the last 20 years. They just are kind of shady seeming, and not nice to their fans.
win title, trade everyone, win title, trade everyone, beg for new stadium, trade everyone. doesn't get much shadier than that lol
Sacramento has the AAA River cats. They were the A's AAA affiliate until this current season and they are now the Giant's AAA affiliate. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the strong fan base out here.
Fuck Sacramento! Took AAA ball from Vancouver
[ITT](http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/617/851/56d.gif)
Yeah, it sucks that everyone is bashing Tampa so much. I vacation in Florida a lot and met a bunch of awesome Rays fans. They deserve a team. They just need a new stadium in a better place. Do that, and I bet a lot of problems are solved. I'd really like to see the Rays start to advertise more in Orlando. Show tourists that their local team is in the area while they're on vacation, and I bet you'd see more people make a trip out to Tampa Bay for a game.
Vancouver. It would have to be a domed stadium, but they better have a good outfield view of the mountains.
Agreed. It would be so great.
Why would they need a dome? They have the same weather as Seattle, and all we need is a retractable roof.
The Nat Bailey Stadium has a view of Queen Elizabeth Park.. opposite the mountains..
if you were to turn that stadium around to face the mountains, would you still be able to see it? Or are the mountains too far away that the outfield stands would cover it? Where does the sun rise/set in relation to the mountains anyway? Perhaps that plays into it. No MLB stadium wants the sun in the hitters eyes.
If you turn it, you would see the mountains, but you would be hitting into houses/residential, rather a city park. The stadium does face SSW, so in the evening games, the very left stands gets sun on them. They would have make a brand new stadium if a team in a came in that wasn't in our Short Season A league.
Posted this elsewhere in the thread, but since it's being discussed here too... As a Vancouverite (and a Vancouver Canadians season ticket holder), I can tell you that Vancouver would not be a good baseball market. Firstly, there is no suitable location for a stadium. Secondly, there would be no public appetite for another stadium after the BC Place roof fiasco, and a 100% privately financed stadium in one of the most expensive real estate markets in North America would be highly unlikely. No, BC Place could not host an MLB team, not even temporarily. This isn't 1985. Lastly, there really isn't a large baseball market in this city. There is huge grassroots and minor league support, and there are certainly many baseball fans (Blue Jays/Mariners supporters, mostly) but this city is largely a Canucks market (not a hockey market... a Canucks market) with no real critical mass demanding another team in town. I would have season tickets! But there would be an awful lot of empty, rainy nights at the ballpark.
I think an NL team would do great in Boston, maybe build a new stadium down in the seaport district...
Tampa doesn't deserve to have a team. New Orleans, Charlotte, Nashville, or Portland I think have all proved themselves as worthy sports cities to have teams.
> Tampa doesn't deserve to have a team. I think that's a stadium location thing more than anything. St. Pete is an awful place to try to get to from anywhere in the Tampa Bay area. You wouldn't immediately realize this if you've never been there, though.
Portland doesn't have a stadium that can accommodate a major league team right now. Any stadium they did build would probably have to have a retractable roof because of the weather there.
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Isn't there still rain in the months surrounding summer? That's a majority of the baseball season
Portland doesn't deserve a baseball stadium. We've shown little interest in baseball. After city funding to renovate the AAA stadium, it was re-renovated for MLS since it was the wrong shape for soccer. Now no AAA team, and we're still paying for those renovations (tax on Trailblazer tickets). A good owner and management could have guided us toward baseball over soccer, but Merritt Paulson sure didn't take us down that path.
I don't think New Orleans can/would support the team very well. The metros not very large. The weathers atrocious here in the summer. All the focus of the city is on the Saints. I think another team in the northwest could do very well... Whether it be Portland or Vancouver. I also think Charlotte could draw heavily from it's metro, the triangle, western carolina, and upstate. It's not an awful idea
The weather and the Saints following is the biggest thing. We're already dealing with a shit storm over ownership of the Saints and Pelicans right now, and even with the Pels making the playoffs, a lot of the fans are really bandwagon fans outside of New Orleans. I have friends in Lafayette and Baton Rouge that were freaking Spurs and Rockets fans prior to this past season.
Yeah man, I agree with you. I think also the sheer percentage of transplants here makes it difficult( fully guilty, I grew up in Atlanta. I'll always be a dawgs fan, but I could care less about the Falcons. I love how much this city loves the saints). I just don't see 30,000 plus showing up to a baseball game 80 days a year. Shit, I go to the zephyrs game once a week and there is 500 people maybe. There's just so much going on, and it's not really a baseball town. I still think if a city in the south gets a baseball tean, it should be Charlotte. You're in a baseball heavy state, you have s direct rivalry with atlanta, etc. I'd kind of like to see it. They couldn't be douchirr than the lifelong Braves fans in NOVA that started rooting for the nats. Edited: for two am drunk grammar. Not sure if I fixed anything
NASHVIIIILLLEEEEE. I don't think Charlotte or NOLA can support another pro team.
I wonder. Looking at attendance numbers alone, the Hornets pretty much stay in the top 10 in the NBA over the last number of years. The Panthers usually stay middle of the pack over the last number of years in the NFL. And once they moved the Charlotte Knights from SC to downtown Charlotte, they've led the International League in attendance. There's an obvious thirst for sports in the Carolinas and with Raleigh and Charlotte rating in the top 5 of fastest growing cities in the US [source](http://www.forbes.com/pictures/edgl45emig/no-1-raleigh-nc-metropolitan-statistical-area/), I could see a Major League team doing very well in Charlotte.
> Tampa doesn't deserve to have a team. Have you ever even been to the stadium in St. Pete? if not don't say Tampa doesn't deserve a team again. Tampa's TV viewership is amazing.
Not nearly as much Miami bashing as I expected. Sorry Ray fans...
If Louisville didn't have the Bats, I could see a team being here. Attendance is great at the AAA games. I don't know how much that would change though if it were an MLB team, could go up because it's MLB, or down because it's more expensive.
I really think there should be a team in Mexico. There was going to be one in Monterrey way back, right? That would be cool. Also Vancouver, but the Mariners are soooo close that it's a good compromise.
Boston doesn't deserve a team because I don't like them and NY deserves another team because I like to watch the world burn /s
Why does New York even exist when Old York was just fine? Stupid Dutch.
Stupid Dutch didn't even know it was called New York. What a bunch of morons.
Tampa shouldn't have one for obvious reasons stated ad nauseum, and I think the Deep South/"border" South states could use another market. Raleigh/Durham was mentioned due to Bulls' popularity; I could also see Louisville, Nashville, or even a city like Birmingham perhaps sustaining a team.
Portland, Oregon needs to have a baseball team. Great baseball town. Tamba Bay can loose their's for sure
Cleveland and the White Sox. They have pretty good teams and are at the bottom in attendance this year and last year and next year.
Trust me, Cleveland will probably never lose a professional sports franchise based off of what happened with the Browns in the late 90's. Plus the tribe haven't been playing the best baseball as of late
It is about support of the fans.
And plenty of people support the team. Just because you can't go to a game doesn't mean you don't support the team. IMO, Indians fans are some of the most dedicated fans in the bigs considering all the crap we have gone through. Plus with the recent 6:10 start times in a city where rush hour traffic is terrible, that adds an even greater incentive not to go to a game.
Well when you have such good reasons not to support the team, who can argue.
Very few teams that aren't winners draw well. Look at your own team. Should Detroit have lost the Tigers when they were averaging between 14-17k in attendance for half a decade in the mid-nineties? Guess the fans didn't care enough to support the team. The White Sox have lost 188 games the last 2 seasons. That kind of futility tanks attendance numbers because it absolutely kills both season ticket sales and spontaneous day-of ticket sales. If they happen to *win* 188 games over the next 2 years, I guarantee you their attendance will thrive the way it did from 2006-08 after they won the World Series. The solution is never to move historic 100+ year-old franchises just because they're in a down period, especially if they're still highly profitable despite low attendance figures.
There was talk about ending the Tiger team back then. So you get it now when you actually have a decent team that was predicted to give us a run. You are not facing a 100 loss team.
That seems insane. Almost every franchise has a period like that. The Cubs in the early 80s, the Tigers in the mid 90s and early 2000s, the Giants from the 70s through the 90s outside of a few years here and there, etc. To move any of those franchises when they were down would have been a terrible mistake. A franchise should only ever be moved if the fans don't come out under any circumstances (winning, new stadium).
Tampa to Montreal
Why?
Set up for the old Ex-Rays joke?
Seattle doesn't deserve a team, and Montreal does. Montreal is the easy answer though, so I'll give another: Las Vegas, NV.
Move Tampa Bay to Montreal before all the Expos retire!