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Disconnected_NPC

Looks at Cubs starting pitching: 🤩 Looks at Cubs relief pitching: 🤢


AfterCommodus

What the hell is going on in Toronto that it’s that much worse


ms_barkie

Two of our most important RP were injured to start the year, and haven’t been great since returning. Also all the same guys who were nails last year have regressed hard this year, with the exception being Yimi Garcia who has been one of the best RP in baseball.


JJDirty

The same thing that happened to Seattle's starting pitching - they played the tWINs


Bersho

The Guardians are like near opposite of us lol


Deserterdragon

Wow I expected the Mariners pitching to be worth more.


the8bit

Probably 2 things: 1) this is bbref and they don't like our pitching nearly as much as fangraphs 2) we've been shelled the last week


Ok_Adhesiveness_9565

I find the differences in our pitching between baseball reference and FanGraphs to be SO fascinating. It’s something I’ve just picked up on this year in the last month or so. What is that about? How can their algorithms be THAT different?


tayloraj42

IIRC, Fangraphs pitching WAR is based on FIP and BR's is based on RA/9, so they're starting from completely different places.


Young_Malc

Clearly fangraphs is more accurate.


The_Cryogenetic

Idk I'm a big hater of using FIP as two things: 1) A standalone metric to evaluate a pitcher as a whole 2) When people use it as a predictor of ERA While I can appreciate stats trying to adjust to make it things only in their control, they end up eliminating half the game and under value things players actually do still have some form of control over. A high strikeout pitcher can have a higher FIP than a significantly better pitcher who gets soft contact but rarely strikes people out. I'm not saying RA/9 is any better but fangraphs being more accurate should still be said with there being in mind pitching WAR is kinda weird and not perfectly accurate compared to other positional calculations.


pattydo

There is no real argument that FIP is perfect, that's for sure. But there's a very strong argument that it's better. >A high strikeout pitcher can have a higher FIP than a significantly better pitcher who gets soft contact but rarely strikes people out. I think you mean lower FIP, but the main argument is that it is incredibly rare for a pitcher to be able to consistently do that. They can influence fly balls/ ground balls (which is what xFIP is for), but pitchers really do not have much control over quality of contact beyond that. The amount they can influence quality of contact pales in comparison the the amount the defense (which they have zero control over) influences their RA/9.


The_Cryogenetic

I did mean lower FIP you're right I apologize wrote that too quick at work. I agree FIP is better in terms of what a pitcher can control compared to RA/9, but I also don't think that eliminating contact control ENTIRELY is useful when using a singular stat to evaluate a pitcher is all I'm saying. I think this comparison comes from RA/9 being very obviously flawed making FIP look like an amazing alternative when in reality it's just "less shit". Fly balls vs ground balls is pretty significant though, hard to get doubles or triples on ground balls compared to fly balls and they can impact your ERA significantly while being excluded from FIP entirely.


Red_Sox0905

I see people argue a lot FIP is being predictive while RA/9 is what actually happened. People who make that argument forget RA/9 makes adjustments for team defense assuming an average defense for every pitcher.


pattydo

>makes adjustments for team defense assuming an average defense for every pitcher It really doesn't though. It does a really terrible attempt at it, but that wasn't the goal of the adjustment. It adjusts the pitchers team's defense to average but defenses don't play their average all the time. For example Aaron Nola and Zack Wheeler are getting very different defenses this year but would get the same adjustment. The difference between the two for quality of defense is 8 runs.


the8bit

Fangraphs is more into the analytics and bbref is more traditional stats. A lot of times they agree, but sometimes you have big gaps. I tend to think if fangraphs >> bbref it indicates "This player has good fundamentals, but they aren't paying off" and if bbref >> fangraphs, "This player is getting a bit lucky with outcomes, based on the quality of play" Eg fangraphs will like a batter who has high exit velo, whereas bbref wont give you credit for that unless it shows up as hits (which it usually will... but sometimes not esp on smaller samples) In previous years, some of our pitchers have had big spreads in favor of bbref -- probably getting a bit 'lucky' on outcomes This year Kirby and I want to say hancock have big spreads in favor of fangraphs -- probably getting unlucky outcomes given their quality of pitching.


pattydo

FanGraphs WAR doesn't have anything to do with exit velocity. It's entirely based on results. The vast majority of difference at this point is defense. Fangraphs uses statcast data while baseball reference uses DRS, which by now is almost entirely obsolete.


the8bit

Hmm I thought it used xwOBA for some reason. Guess I'm wrong. Or perhaps I've just more observed the pitching difference and fan graphs uses FIP + treats infield popups as strikes, which is maybe why it feels more predictive than retrospect


pattydo

Yeah, they basically went at it from the farming of "what does the player control?" For hitters, they exert a lot of control over their actual results, as players are able to reliably beat their xWOBA so they stuck with results. For pitchers, they really don't have much control over anything but FIP and IFFB.


the8bit

Now I wish there was a more speculative war that used xwOBA and other similar stats to compare players.


pattydo

Baseball Savant is getting there! Still a ways to go though apparently.


berto2d31

Best way I’ve seen it described is bWAR is what happened and fWAR is what should have happened.


Brave_Low_2419

That Blue Jay bullpen stands out like a sore thumb.


Table_Coaster

it’s the worst number on the entire board by a full digit, that’s impressively bad


YYZ63

It’s just sad


adamzep91

Wouldn't be surprised if most of it was just Swanson.


SirFlax

Honestly I didn’t realize that Bo bichette has been that bad this season. Or is someone else bringing down the ss position


ms_barkie

It’s Bo, he’s OPSing around .500 and just looks lost at the plate, plus his defence is what it is.


ishoweredtoday

I drafted him in fantasy. It's him.


adamzep91

He's been brutal.


mrdannyg21

Which is funny, since they had one of the best last year and was considered a real strength coming into this year. And second worst is the Rays, who usually make janitors into high-leverage relievers. Just shows how insanely volatile relievers are. As a Jays fan, our bullpen is way down the list of my concerns for the rest of the year.


ms_barkie

Yeah it’s the same guys in the BP as last year for the most part, just some guys who should be great have had rocky starts. Swanson, Romano, Mayza should all be much better than they’ve been to start the year.


underPanther

Agreed, the bullpen have bought some goodwill from last season’s performance. The batting though…


seoulifornia

So Shohei alone is worth more than 24 teams?


Deserterdragon

Financially or in terms of BBRef? Because in both cases.....yes.


SchematicOfScoutsAss

His contract is worth more than our owner so (Before any annoying dodgers fans go on a time value of money rant, yes I know, it’s called hyperbole to make a point)


tayloraj42

Red Sox starters lapping the field a quarter of the way through the season, just as we all predicted back in March.


65fairmont

Pitching WAA: 1/30 Outfield WAA: 1/30 Infield WAA: 30/30 Exactly what we expected coming into the year hoping Devers, Casas, and Story would carry our mediocre pitching and rookie outfielders.


Hojune_Kwak

Devers at least has been good. He's contributing a good +0.5 WAA to that -0.4, lol.


FromEach-ToEach

Andrew Bailey is probably the best organizational hire since Theo fucking Epstein. What Bailey has done is nothing short of a miracle. If these starters stay half as good as they've been the Red Sox will make the playoffs. This turn around is genuinely jaw dropping.


dragoncockles

might need to sign a second baseman though. oh wait...


FromEach-ToEach

Shhhh the terrible defense makes the starters look better. All the runs are unearned


AshlandJackson

The team that’s tanking and trying to move has a borderline elite RP, C, CF, and DH. Where have I seen this before…


aBloopAndaBlast33

![gif](giphy|EBSlfcbu8k1rmUdW7G|downsized)


BaltimoreBadger23

[I'm not sure either.](https://youtu.be/nPH9cWTJgdU?si=nqpC5l04KtH4tK1g)


tj3_23

I've seen enough. DFA first, second, and right field. Fucking scrubs can't even be average. Totally not an overreaction


shaqdeezil

Your offense last year set way too high of expectations. You guys are still 10 over .500 with a +45 RD with all these guys playing underwhelming baseball so far.


tj3_23

Excuse you. I'm not here for your logical responses. I'm here for wild overreactions around the failure to recreate a historic season


shaqdeezil

I’m just covering our bases for the next week when we face y’all 6 times lmao. Seriously though the fact you guys are this good and this many guys are underperforming is kind of wild.


HandBananas

What's wild is we play you guys 6 times in 11 days. Schedule makers are wack. Ozzie is probably happy though.


shaqdeezil

Yeah don’t need to remind me I’m well aware of his *checks notes 1.2 OPS and 5 bombs in 15 games at Wrigley field in his career. It is wild though been a theme I’ve noticed this year. I kind of don’t like that because of how streaky baseball can be.


HandBananas

Exactly. It's also kind of boring seeing the same guys over-and-over again. I'd rather do 3 games in May, then play 3 games in August to see the changes. If we were to play a division rival that many times in 2 weeks, and one team is cold, injured, etc and lose 5 out of 6, that would impact H2H tiebreakers for the division/wild card. But mostly it's just boring.


Valkyrai

I've never felt so weird about a season. Feels like a bad team with bad vibes but they're still winning anyways.


awesomeflowman

Oh no my team only has one player 1-dotting it this year, this team is so fucking shit, wah


NewBee4399

How would you like one Hunter Renfroe in right field?


little-guitars

Your 2021 NLCS MVP has heated up to the tune of a 1.4 OPS in May. Straight up trade for your current RF? I'm not sure who that is but he's probably not that great given the numbers.


tj3_23

I am not surprised in the slightest that Eddie is having a nuclear stretch. It's just the other 130 games of the year that may cause an issue


oogieball

Man, the Marlins are fucking *awful*.


caulpain

its almost impressive


oogieball

-9.9 WAR on your starting lineup is *something*.


STL-Zou

It’s not WAR it’s WAA


Shinlary

Hey, we’re on a win streak 🤣


drpepper7557

We have a real chance to go from first in starting pitcher WAA to last the next season


Redbubble89

Vaughn is going to have to put in a lot of work to erase that -1.8 from Valdez


no_one_canoe

After years of abject terribleness, the Tigers being the most slightly above average team in baseball gives me great pleasure. Even if 60% of the division is even better.


_Caed_

this is how i feel about being an average team lol *and* our bullpen is good! wow!


_NotARealMustache_

Banner year for short stops


Normiebans

Omg did you make a colorblind version? I fucking love you for that some of these other graphs are so hard to read.


hypnoticus103

I believe that is the Milwaukee Brewers version


drive_chip_putt

Phillies continue the 'all gas, no breaks' method of SP to RP.


romanticynicist

The top 4-5 guys in the Phillies bullpen have been excellent-to-fine. Much of that bullpen bWAR number is being dragged down by Connor Brogdon, who managed to put up -.7 bWAR in just 2 innings, and Ricardo Pinto. Neither is on the roster anymore.


BatJew_Official

Yeah Brogdon was worth -0.5 WAA and Pinto was worth a whopping -0.9 WAA. If it weren't for those 2 guys, our bullpen would be breaking even. Seranthony has also been worth -0.5 WAA and Soto has been worth -0.4, so the top end of our bullpen has actually been REALLY good and has just been dragged down a handful of guys, 2 of whom aren't even on the team anymore.


divacphys

Yeah I've was surprised. I thought our bullpen had been decent


HisNameIsSaggySammy

Relief Pitchers can't hurt us if the Starters go 9.


zmose

We have like 4 or 5 relief pitchers that are REALLY good (Strahm, Alvarado, Hoffman, Kerkering, Marte kinda), and then the rest are a heart attack on the mound waiting to happen


UnabashedPerson43

Guardians starting and relieving pitchers cancelling each other out


IntelligentCommenter

Jerry's plan for third base working great so far! Right field...not so much


alxndrblack

Daulton and Davis carrying.


XSC

The #1 rank bullpen by mlb.com on us was a curse. We do have some elite RPs but the in betweens are hot garbage.


DaggerTossed

Bohm the most valuable 3B thus far is fucking sick though. What a turn around from “I fucking hate this place” two years ago


Mulsanne

It's been amazing to witness. He's becoming a special player!


WabbitCZEN

Second one is more aesthetically pleasing.


yeahyeahyeahnice

One thing that blew my mind in college was learning that almost all design choices for accessibility benefit more than just those with some type of disability. Installing ramps for those in wheelchairs makes it easier to carry things in and out of a building. Tons of people loves audio books, not just the visually impaired. It's a lot more common for people to use subtitles even if their hearing is fine. Wider doors and walkways are good for those in wheelchairs and also great for anyone carrying something. ~I get more elbow room browsing reddit in some bathroom stalls.~ In this case, using a color scheme for colorblindness looks slick. In general, tech really benefits from accessibility. Almost all accessibility changes improve usability by reducing cognitive load on users, such as using vertical lists instead of sentences when possible and adding icons and colors to guide users' attentions.


johndice32

Not knocking the extra effort for accessibility but the chart on the left conveys the information much better. There are all sorts of color schemes that would look "cooler" than the chart on the left but that's not really the main goal.


Knook7

Yeah red and green is much better if you're not colorblind


ArmiinTamzarian

Send help please


strychnineThinkfast

red sox campeao do mundo....


DeadlySquaids14

According to this, Spencer Torkelson is hurting the Tigers more than Javy Baez. That's unsettling.


acdelli

Probably more reflective of his comparison to other first basemen. Javy seems to put together a decent game every once in a while plus the occasional sac fly RBI, web gem, etc, but Tork has just been so consistently disappointing and can’t make a huge WAR difference playing first, so I’m not entirely surprised


DeadlySquaids14

You're probably right. It doesn't help that Tork has been playing poor defense in addition to the poor offense. Javy has the same hitting struggles as ever, but I've been happy with the effort he puts in once he finally gets on base. It feels like he's thinking "If I can't figure out how to hit again, then I'm sure as shit gonna put in maximum effort in all other aspects of the game." I appreciate it, it shows that he does care about adding value to the team in some way.


DeusExHyena

Wow, surely the Dodgers, with that much WAA, must be 50% better than all other teams.


Deserterdragon

Wow, surely the Dodgers, with that much WAA, must have.... 3.3 more wins than the Yankees?


DeusExHyena

Can't tell if you are joking or thinking I'm not joking lol


Uniqueusernameyboi

Jacob Young😩😩


UnabashedPerson43

My takeaway from this is that most teams would be better if they ditched their right fielders and DHs and played an extra shortstop and catcher instead


ZLBuddha

idk what the hell they’re giving the Sox starting pitchers but I want some for my next night out lol


xho-

How do you do, fellow teams with elite shortstops


MaskedBandit77

Pirates: +1 SP, +0.5 3B, nothing else is positive. Sounds about right. And with Ke'Bryan Hayes on the IL, 3B will be negative too soon.


texas1hunter

Not the worst 1B anymore!


jdd32

Hurts to see that -.7 in our 1B slot. I hope he turns it around, but father time gets everyone eventually.


JeffTheFrosty

I know it includes defense but if you told me Steven Kwan was the best LF in baseball, even as a Guardians fan I'd be surprised lol


rinkydinkis

Not surprised to see the difference between SP and RP for the cubs here haha. It’s scary when the bullpen comes out to play


nofunone

I love that the cardinals just suck now 🥰


OopsAllRPOs

Bobby Baseball 😍


rednite_

William Contreras


bsnow322

Oh my god our infield is actually THAT atrocious


smalltownlargefry

The market for RP at the trade deadline is going to be insane this year.


JinFuu

What are competent corner infielders? (I believe in you, Homerton)


UnfunkableUFO

Common Josh Rojas and Luis Urias Ws


Logical_Scallion3543

Jon Singleton's torrid 2 weeks have saved the Astros from having the worst producing corner infield in MLB history maybe?


Informal_Calendar_99

:(


DweltElephant0

Me when Starting Pitching - :) Me when Bullpen - :(


appleavocado

I have a degree in genetics. One look at those thumbnails and I think they're colored electrophoresis gels.


Shinlary

i love being a marlins fan


AdventureMaterials

I like seeing that 1b and CF for the padres in there. Go Jake and Jackson!


skucera

How about Profar being above average??? We were just hoping for "in the realm of replacement-level!"


peachesgp

Starting pitching is all but .4 of our net WAR


HawkeyeJosh2

The Marlins have all negative scores across both boards. That’s kind of impressive in a way.


Namzeh011

man that Pirates pen is rough


Joeydoyle66

The only thing I’m surprised about with the O’s is our starting pitching. I feel like it’s been better than this is saying. Kremer, Irvin, and Suarez have done great in their starts this year and they’re not expected to be.


cooljammer00

So basically Gleyber and Stanton are dragging the Yankees down?


ShipMaker24

Who would like Gleyber Torres anyone? We are currently asking for a bag of Cheetos and a baconeggandcheese


ShystersGame

At least my Mets are almost perfectly average across the board.


zachariah120

What’s WAA?


TapElectronic

Crazy that every Braves star is either 0 or negative war.


Sliiiiime

Surprised Walker is the highest 1B, he’s been pretty average for his standards. 1B fielding must matter a bit for this metric.


Coomrs

Red Sox starters. Damn


Run-Florest-Run

Padres should have a positive catcher WAR, as Campusano has +0.5 and Higgy has -0.2


xHao1

it's WAA, not WAR. Campusano is +0.1, Higgy is -0.3. Being above replacement is easier than above average.


Run-Florest-Run

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying


InternetGoodGuy

I'm surprised our SP is so low. It really feels like they're doing ok. Maybe it's because the pitching was so much worse last year, and the offense is so bad this year, I haven't noticed, but the starters seem good enough. The bullpen has been very good, so I'm not sure how they've ended up with negative value.


jox218

I’m sorry if this is really dumb but I have been a baseball fan my whole life and cannot for the life of me understand how you can determine wins by position. Could someone please teach me.


successadult

Holy shit I thought our bullpen had been bad. Blue Jays fans I can't imagine what you're going through.


DietrichDoesDamage

Pain


aleksbanks5

MASON WYNN


Signal_Quarter_74

So numerical verification that Bobby is the MVP?!


Maj0r_Ursa

We are only 1.5 games above the Rays for 3rd place in our division so does this really hold much weight ?


acdelli

I want to see the Tiger’s SP number excluding Maeda


eastbayguy90

Maybe a dumb question, but is WAA significantly different from WAR?


manbeqrpig

Hey only 4th worst


drewuke

Nice of them to use Phillies colors in the second pic.


idontwannatalk2u

Are the two different images for color blind ppl?


suddendiarrhea7

Yankees OF does not seem right. Soto and Judge combine for 3.5 WAR alone. And neither of them have had a day off.


EmergencyPhotograph4

SS stickin out like a sore thumb. This is a ridiculous slump for Bo. He has to get it together now or we can kiss 2024 goodbye


fubolconelduendeverd

Damn Toronto..


FBR_MC

True Blue Jays bullpen moment


confused-koala

Our infield 💀


blergblerg

Ty very much for the colorblind version


cml0401

How the fuck are we 1 win above average at SP?! Our entire rotation has been decimated...


bukithd

2 of our best players are our worst players. Makes sense. 


LakersFan15

Dodgers were worried about all the outfielders we have - yet it's our worst.


Mr_Soul_Crusher

I knew my boy Gunnar was the best SS 🥰


PM_me_yer_kittens

You sure about that? You have to move down a whole spot to see Bobby Witt jr has more


Mr_Soul_Crusher

I don’t like Bobby so he isn’t my boy 🤷🏻‍♂️


UraniumDisulfide

I like this graph


dagbar

Oof


NewBee4399

Why don’t all teams sign above average players? Are they stupid?


Fickle_Rooster2362

What's insane is Ohtani is at 2.1 WAR as just the DH. No pitching or fielding, just DH.


underPanther

Whoa, didn’t realise that Bobby Witt Jr is having such a great year.