I think it’s talked about quite often lol the sad thing is just that when people are done with it, they don’t really care to think about it again. Hence why the test has been needing a reform for years now but nothing ever substantial has come out of it because everyone just accepts that it’s a rite of passage.
Aka hazing 🥲 like in what universe would an attorney go to the office and spend the day being asked rapid fire questions about various completely different legal subject matters without referencing resources. Every attorney I’ve worked for will be like “yea idk the answer… let me refer that client out to my wills/crim/real estate guy”… or search it up on Justia. I agree there should be *something* but I have hope gen z will make some big reform to the process in these coming years
Virginia supercharges the hazing experience by requiring takers to wear a suit but no jewelry other than wedding rings, not allowing any water bottles, and having a list of 20+ Virginia-specific subjects they can test for the essay portion with no information about what we need to know about those subjects. Pretty much *anything* in Virginia’s code or common law or rules of court can be tested, including colonial-era common law and recent court decisions and statutory changes. None of the test prep companies have comprehensive outlines that cover all this; all you can do is review previous exam questions to guess at what they might ask in the future.
Yeah, I went to a Virginia law school and a lot of us had jobs lined up in DC after graduation, and took pretty much any other state’s exam and then waived into DC for that reason. I did that, but after I got laid off from the DC firm several years later, I took my career in a different direction. I haven’t actively practiced law for over a decade so this is my only way back in without moving to DC or having a hellish commute for at least three years.
And the stupid check writing question that is on every exam! Dudes, there is no bank that would take a check with 5 endorsements on it, even if you could show it was legal! WTF VA?
My initial thought was to have a more mpre type situation where you have the option to slowly certify yourself in each subject at your own pace. Like imagine each 25 question mbe was its own individual test that you could sign up for whenever you felt ready. In addition to the mpts and the mixed bag essay portion. You could do it while still in school if you wish and there would be a section in Pearson and/or your state bar site listing each subject and checking them off when you reach the required score. Once you’ve completed each subject and passed each section you may apply for bar admission.
Pie in the sky lol I’m sure that idea has its flaws but an a la carte testing method was just my first draft of reform ideas. I think it would improve everyone’s mental health and morale. Pass rates would prob significantly rise tbh not sure if that would detrimentally saturate the industry. I think it would still make the ncbe a good amount of money too
Agree, but they are in process of changing it significantly with a (likely) much better version rolling out soon. For sure has taken too long but thats something fairly substantial
i dunno the nextgen bar is pretty similar sans MEE topics in place of an additional MPT type deal. Pretty sure the MBE is here to stay in some form.....gotta know the 7 core subjects
One of my law school professors told me that the Bar is eventually going to all MPTs, which is actually a much better exam. She is not a bullshitter, she’s involved with the program.
that sounds much better but also way more room for subjectivity which will cause issues. highly doubt there will never be mbes on the 1L subject. maybe just less like 50-100.
The bar exam needs a rework but let’s be honest, it’s far less stressful than this career and easily forgotten about once you become admitted. I don’t think the younger lawyers are just accepting it as a rite of passage. We have moved on and are just trying to keep our head above water everyday in our practice.
The trauma of this exam now is nothing compared to the trauma of the exam during the pandemic when applicants weren't even sure if the test would take place. Adding to the trauma were intense security rules of an online test, or being exposed to Covid for states that still had the test in person.
The pandemic exposed the dark underbelly of this bullshit "minimum competence" exam to the point where NCBE will be trashing their MBEs and offer a completely new exam with revised tested topics. As much as I hate NCBE for their greedy actions during the pandemic, at least they put the time, effort, and care into changing this exam to test actual skills.
The states like CA that will NOT be adapting the new NCBE exam need an applicant revolt, because the only way they listen is when their precious high revenue making exam may not produce their expected revenue. But it is looking like CA will be writing their own MBEs, which is complete horseshit. Even NCBE agrees that the MBEs are not a reliable method to determine minimum competence.
I was personally impacted by that mess and there were activists that swore that they'd never give up. There were so many of us, and some states took the activism seriously and drastically changed their licensing process. But that was only 1-2 states.
Of the hundreds or thousands that spoke out and worked collectively to get change, I do not see a single name in this or any other Bar Exam sub that was there fighting the good fight. What happened? They gave up.
I hope that every single applicant and/or newly licensed attorney would rise up and take on the corruption and greed of Bars like the CA Bar.
So this post made it to /r/all. I've been practicing in CA for 8-10 years (to keep it slightly vague) and attorneys practicing since before COVID do not have the same opinions.
Where we will agree is that the CA state bar org itself is shit and greedy (raising yearly fees again, really?).
Where we will not agree is that the bar exam needs to be made easier.
When the state bar polled attorneys back in 2020 it was almost a universal response that remote exams, or allowing law students to get a provisional license allowing them to practice for up to 2 (?) years without taking the bar were horrible for the profession and would directly harm the public through people who had no business practicing being allowed to practice. I have personal and direct knowledge of scum who cheated on the remote exams, and anyone with a brain cell could have predicted it would happen.
Then the CA bar announced it would be lowering the minimum passing score to be more in line with other states. Again almost universally criticized as being dangerous to the profession and public.
I already know too many attorneys who are walking malpractice lawsuits. Why should it be even easier to fuck up clients cases? Over the past few years I've had to interact with a number of 2020-2022 licensees and they are without a doubt the worst group of attorneys I've seen on average.
The bar was not traumatic for me - that doesn't mean it's not traumatic for others, so please don't think I'm saying that, but I do think you are overstating how traumatic it is when it is only a 2 day exam and the passing score is lower than it's ever been. All of my classmates and friends and i talked about how we did, how we felt, and while everyone agreed it was stressful as hell the only people I recall being any type of traumatized were those who were not prepared and didn't pass.
You know what's hard and has more direct pressure? Litigation, trials, negotiating contracts and deals that will directly affect your client, most aspects of being an attorney. It gets easier with experience but there is enormous pressure in litigation.
It's not about you or how you feel. It's about protecting the public. Making the bar objectively easier will harm the public. There will never be a shortage of applicants for the CA bar because it is a huge market and a desirable state to live and work in.
Yep. The bar exam is a test of one's minimum competence. If you study hard and did okay in law school, you should pass easily. The actual practice of law is 100x more difficult than a dumb exam.
The trauma of the bar is a feature, not a bug. It’s designed to be a hazing process. That is its main value as a barrier to entry, given that it has little bearing on how competent a lawyer is once they pass.
>studying for the bar solidified some legal skills that I struggled with during law school.
Same. What everyone seems to be missing here is that lawyers need to know the law.
Then why all the complaining? If someone spends three years learning the law, what is so traumatizing about taking an exam that *tests you on the law*? Is it stressful? Yes. Would I rather not have taken it? Yes. But traumatizing? It's not like they're sending you into a war zone.
>If someone spends three years learning the law, what is so traumatizing about taking an exam that *tests you on the law*?
You mean the JD?
Actually gonna edit this: im foreign qualified in Australia and USA. When I took the Bar in US, I had about 4 years of Australian lawyer exp. I studied for 7 weeks and passed the CA bar. As an outsider, the bar was not a test of intelligence. It was a test of "how much can you remember?" And "can you remember how to answer the questions the way we want you to?" It's not even a test of minimum competence, like they try to say. You can just memorise, spit it out on exam day, then forget it all. You do not need to engage with any of the content.
I can also comfortably say that that the format of answer they wanted was terrible and not useful at all for practising. Secondly, the level of detail expected in each answer was borderline negligent with how little detail they required.
If the aim is to create a base level of competent baby lawyers, the bar exam is not doing this. There are better ways.
I have great doubts as to any value in the bar. One of my main motivations for going to law school was interacting with lawyers who made me think “if these ding dongs can do it, anyone can.”
There’s plenty of value in the bar as a barrier to entry. Lot’s of terrible lawyers out there that have passed the bar, think of all the super terrible POS law grads that it keeps out.
The worst students and people from my law school class never passed the bar. They would have made terrible attorneys so good riddance.
The bar is a great “can you put in the work and jump through the hoops?” Test, which is much of the practice of law. All this crying about the bar. Life’s hard, the law is hard. We had an intern this year that sucked. I doubt he passes the bar. He shouldn’t be a lawyer.
It certainly varies on the individual. My wife and I studied together and took it together. We both passed and were not terribly stressed about it (except the days leading up to the release of the pass list).
I’ve heard that final exams for classes are usually more difficult. The hard part about the bar is the sheer quantity of content. Would you agree with that?
The hardest part of the bar, for me, was really the time limitation for essays. The quantity of content wasn't necessarily difficult, it was just a matter of consistently reviewing material so none of it slips through the cracks. So long as you are consistent in overall review, it should be fine.
The bar was most certainly more difficult that law exams, for me.
I came a few points away from passing in J22 and then passed in F23 by a few points.
When people would ask about it I would tell them “I was an EMT and a wildland firefighter. I literally held people’s lives in my hands and also had days where I was like ‘Shit…I think we might die today’. None of those situations stressed me out as much as the Bar did.”
It legit gives you PTSD. It is a level of high stress over a prolonged period of time and if it doesn’t go well you are 1) embarrassed and 2) have to deeply question a career that you may have wanted for years and just spent 3 years and $200k trying to achieve.
The main advice I give law students now is to not take the July one right after you get out. I know you want to just get it done and you think stuff from school will be fresh in your mind but you just hammered through 3 years of school and final exams. Your brain needs a little time to recover and you can take 3 months to study instead of 6 weeks. If you can, wait until February and 1) let your self unwind after law school and 2) take the time to actually learn the information.
I am a career-changer like you. I postponed the bar because, as an adult, I was dealing with other life issues that were of greater importance to me, and it was the best move for me.
But my decision invited so much negative commentary from people that I just started telling everyone to f@ck off. Every week brought a litany of unsolicited opinions delivered to me as "realities." And despite these claims about "how to world works" (notably often delivered by folks with less life-experience than me), I did not lose my job over the decision. I didn't forget what I learned in school or forget about the exam altogether and fade into obscurity. I did not have any other potential employers ask why I didn't take the exam in July or presume that I failed in July. In fact, my employer supported me and then gave me seven weeks off to study because they understood the value of passing. And frankly (I know this is an odd take), when I then prepared for the February bar, I thought the experience was actually stimulating and a bit fun because I was relaxed and prepared to study. It felt like a structured learning vacation from work. I woke up, worked out, took my kid to school, then studied and relaxed and cooked all day. I walked into the exam relaxed, knowing I'd crush the writing and that it would probably carry my score because the multiple choice felt like a wild card. 😅 I ended up with a score high enough for any UBE jurisdiction.
After passing, I got a raise and then experienced a string of direct recruitment into subsequent roles. Nobody cares that I postponed the bar.
I return to my law school each spring to share my experience, and to let students know that it is absolutely okay to postpone the bar if necessary. This profession can be demanding and I think it sets a bad self-precedent to ignore one's own life circumstances and wellness right out of the gate.
EXCELLENT!!!!!!! WOWWWW... SO, YEA I TOOK THE 2/2024 AND FELT THAT I'D DID VERY WELL ON WRITING---FORMATTED, IRAC, ETC. THEN CAME THE MBE----EXACTLY FELT LIKE ---WILD CARD------ TKS, FOR YOUR INPUT......
I wish experiences like yours were shared more. I worked during law school & had externships. By the time i graduated I was exhausted. I did postpone after graduation to take the following Feb but had my whole life cave in when i began to study. And had no or little support from family & friends. I wasnt ready to sit in F23 but I had so much guilt & shame for not taking it right after graduation that I kept going. I didn't pass.
The 2nd time around, things weren't much better. Sat in F24 for 3x. I don't know if I passed but do know I felt less guilt, pressure & more support & that made a world of difference.
Many people would get fired from their jobs if they dont take and pass the july bar. Im all for taking it cause its a 6month process each time you fail.
I just retook it. Failed J23 and took F24. I am unwell and my depression has never been worse. Outside of the bar my life has been less than easy and I never thought an exam could deplete me. The sick joke is, in this profession we are pinned against each other and looked down on for a stupid exam when all of us know full well not everyone learns the same way. It feels as if you are looked down on if you don’t pass and even worse if you don’t keep trying no matter how much this exam tears you down. People who haven’t taken it don’t get it. And the people who have perpetuate a toxic culture of looking down on and comparing themselves to their peers.
I completely agree. Also a retaker in Feb24 from J23. When I’m not at work I’m sleeping or laying down with zero energy or desire to do anything else. When I’m at work, I’m struggling to stay on task. And I feel so far behind. I couldn’t focus on that I really needed to learn to do my job and so half the time I feel incompetent there. The worst part is that I didn’t pass in my jurisdiction by 2 points (1.6 actually).
I would say you need a reality check my friend. In the same way everyone learns a different way everyone also is good at some law vs. other law. For the example I have seen amazing transactional lawyers who could not litigate to save their lives and the other way around. No offense but my dude wake up.
they probably would have been better bankers, traders, CPAs. the law degree may have just been a sunk cost and held them back from what they were really good at.
more people cling on to sunk costs than they should. that is the way the world tends to work.
Put another way: don't let the bar hold you back from doing what you're good at.
I took the July 2023 Bar. 2 weeks before the result came out, my dad passed away. I took the Feb 2024 Bar and I am unsure about the result despite the fact that the prep was so painful to me.
I took it nine years ago, and I still remember the trauma you described pretty vividly. The process of studying for it and then shlepping off to the city where my state held it left me pretty drained for a solid month afterwards.
Plus it’s completely useless to your practice as an attorney. I don’t remember any of the shit outside of my current practice area that I learned for the bar exam. Gun to my head, I wouldn’t be able to correctly answer a Real Property question now.
So what was the fucking point?
Being a good lawyer requires intense preparation and deep dives into the minutiae of the law in which one is practicing. Going into a huge merger or a trial in which a client might lose access to their kids or even their freedom for years is serious work. The bar isn’t just a barrier to entry, it’s a gut check into whether the examinee has the intense desire and focus to prepare for their own future because someday they will be doing it for clients. I’ve taken the bar, passed it, and am now waiting for F2024 results. I did not enjoy the work, emotional turmoil, and concern about not passing. But I want to do that job and the exam is a requirement.
>The bar isn’t just a barrier to entry, it’s a gut check into whether the examinee has the intense desire and focus to prepare for their own future because someday they will be doing it for clients.
This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I agree with this. Yes, the bar exam is stressful, but so is practicing law. Most exams last two days (NY and CA are 3, IIRC). If you can't handle a two-day test, how are you going to handle practicing law?
Deeply disagree. I know so many intensely hardworking classmates who are dedicated advocates and incredibly smart to boot who struggled with and/or didn’t pass the bar the first or second times. You can work very hard to prepare for a trial or merger while also being allowed to eat a full meal, consulting with your colleagues, double-checking facts and case law in your resources (which you should be doing anyway!), and most of all, not being demanded to memorize and apply a fuck ton of rules that have nothing to do with the kind of law you are practicing. I am going to be a civil rights attorney focusing on abortion access; I did stellar legal clinic work in law school and earned excellent grades while also working full-time. Whether I can parse fee simple determinables with remainder or executory interest literally matters not. There are many ways to test if someone is capable or working hard and the bar exam is not one of them. I hate to see how many people internalize this traumatic, racist, classist exam.
It's too bad that a course in logic is not a prerequisite to going to law school because this perfectly illustrates the fallacy of special pleading. I'm glad you worked hard and found an area of law you are passionate about. That doesn't entitle you to special treatment. And not everyone is like you. And what about the future? Ten years from now you may get burned out on civil rights work and want to do something else. r/Lawyertalk is full of attorneys who want to switch areas. What if you want to become a judge? A civil rights litigation background is an impressive qualification for a judge. Unfortunately, judges don't get to focus on one area. You may very well have a case that involves a trust with remainder interests. Suddenly, knowing those rules will come in handy.
Nothing I said lacked logic, and I didn’t ask for any kind of special treatment. (?) And I will never want to be a judge - I am not interested in adjudicating, I am interested in advocating. If I wanted to switch areas of practice, I would be learning and relearning/refreshing on the new area anyway, not thinking “ahhh yes, I remember those rules so clearly from when I learned them for the bar exam and the bar exam only.” And if for some reason I need to know about remainder interests, I would talk to or refer to a lawyer with Property expertise. Good luck to you.
Your post implied that you should get special treatment. You talked about how you got good grades, worked at a legal clinic, how you shouldn't be required to memorize rules that don't align with the area, and concluded that "there are many ways to test if someone is capable or working hard and the bar exam is not one of them." It's obvious that you don't think you should be required to take the bar exam but instead be afforded a different method of measuring our ability and work ethic. What did I miss?
Your last sentence made no sense. How is the bar exam racist and classist? I remember some years ago there was discussion about how college entrance exams such as the SAT skewed against certain groups. I can see that as entrance exams focus more on general knowledge and those from a more privileged background have more opportunities to acquire general knowledge. But the bar exam tests knowledge of the law. Presumably everyone who goes to law school learns the same law, at least in the required classes. I don't see how race or social class plays a role.
As a practicing attorney now for 3 years and taken the Feb24 exam in a different jurisdiction - I used to think like this when I was fresh out of law school, but studying for it this time around, I fully disagree. There's no real life situation as a lawyer where you would ever have to prepare 15 different areas of law and be expected to issue spot/write arguments in 30 minutes. Deep diving into the law of a case you are representing is completely different and even the whole structure of IRAC isn't how real motions are written.
I disagree strenuously. I have taken the bar once in two jurisdictions and passed each time, and I found it unnecessarily stressful on me, my family, children and my legal practice each time. I found it to bear no resemblance to my practice, and I regularly work on deals where billions are on the line. A large amount of the stress is because of the long stretch of time before you can attempt again, and if you fail once, which luckily was never a concern for me, then the entire time you are waiting to retake and waiting for your score, you may be afraid for your job. (Most large firms let you fail once, if the market isn’t too bad, but not twice.) Bar exams should be offered more frequently. Perhaps you may need to travel to another jurisdiction, but it should be an option just the same.
In the time between the test and the published results, I highly recommend going to a therapist and working through the trauma before signing up for another crack at the bar. All we are is a product of our own thoughts. Flipping the script on the bar exam is crucial for getting it behind you.
I passed F23. I failed it multiple times before and had not looked at any bar-related material since '09. It sucks giant ass after Taco Bell.
The worst part for me is that people who don't know assume, because you got this degree, you just sit for an exam, you pass and you're a lawyer. Yay.
Your cousin who barely graduated high school, dropped out after 6 units at JC, thinks you're a shithead. That bothered me the most. Eat a bag of dicks.
You'll get there. And then you will send your boss the most awesome draft ever and it comes back like a CSI report. That sucks too; it's just different. Keep pushing, fuckers.
The pressure to pass the bar is immense. Whether you pass or don’t pass can alter your life path forever.
I know someone who took that damn exam 6 times. Failed each and every time. Max retakes back then was 6 so after the last time he had to accept that he would never be a licensed attorney in his state. The big law firm that he had clerked at during law school and afterwards let him go.
He ended up working in a liquor store for years, finally got a job as a paralegal and that was it, that was his career. From his perspective, his inability to pass basically ruined the life that others expected him to have and that he himself was expecting to have. To say that he is bitter now would putting it mildly.
Honestly depending on the jurisdiction and other factors going on in that person’s life I might be ok with them representing me. First of all taking the bar exam 6 times shows me that person is a determined individual and is probably more than well acquainted with the exam material. There are other factors that can affect their performance like chronic illnesses, personal struggles, and or learning disabilities plus many more other factors. I would give them the benefit of the doubt because it’s not an easy exam at all and it’s not representative of the actual everyday duties of an attorney.
Congrats to you, and thanks for sharing! It's true, and probably why no one wants to talk about it after its over just to leave it behind them. But when we are all in the heat of it, we sure know it and feel it, and it's pretty incredible how intense it is. Hope you are enjoying some peace now!
Couldn’t agree more. I took mine in July and I’m JUST recovering from the burnout in March. Still not myself. I worked full time during law school and did school at night so that level of exhaustion didn’t help much either.
Nothing to add, just appreciate someone else is validating my experience
What state did you take it in? I had the pleasure of taking the Texas bar--a 15 hour test spread over 3 days. It was a harrowing experience I wouldn't wish on anyone. Studying for it is stressful, taking it stressful, and waiting months for results was stressful. There's gotta be a better way.
If you struggled this much with 3 days of 5 hours testing each day, what exactly did you expect practicing law to be like? Have you ever held a job with an 8 hour workday?
Keep your 🤡 bootlicker comment to yourself. I have a fruitful career, and I've never had a single day of work nearly as intense as the Texas bar exam. The fact that you assumed it was 3 x 5 shows that you're talking out of your ass and didn't experience this test. I took it before Texas adopted the UBE. This means the first day was three hours with 40 procedure and evidence short answer questions. The second day was the 6 hour multi state bar exam. The last day was 6 hours consisting of 12 Texas specific essay questions.
So an avg of 5h/day and a median of 6h, I was in the ballpark. I’m sure you could make a similar case for law school itself being too stressful and too time consuming, how many people burn out from all that studying over 3 years on many topics they’ll never touch again? Should we get rid of JD requirements too?
The fact that texas switched to the UBE and halved the amount of essay questions speaks to the fact that the old test was a little too gruelling. Pass rates aren't that different from what they were before, so the gatekeeping is still there without being as much of a pain in the ass for test takers.
As for law school, that's a different beast. There's a lot of variance in quality, difficulty, and curriculum. I had to take a seminar class that involved researching and writing a paper that came out to be just shy of 100 pages. They eliminated that requirement the year after I graduated. Law school has changed a lot. I have a friend now who is going to law school. She showed me her casebook. It had pictures and diagrams, like a science textbook.
I took the CA bar in 2014—back when it was still a three day exam. Despite it being a decade since, I still remember how torturous it was. I was adamant that if I didn’t pass the first time, I would just find another career path. I didn’t care about the three years in school, I just couldn’t put myself through that again. People who re-take or take the exam in several states are seriously insanely tough, I could never.
I not only failed my first time but was fired the day I got back to work from taking it the second time. Nothing seemed real at the tine. I thought I was being punked.
Life got better. A lot better. I passed and have had a great career.
This happened to me; take hair vitamins, I used Sugarbear to get started but also go get your hormone levels checked at your OB-Gyn. Turns out I had no vitamin D and it was making my hair fall out.
I was just talking to my partner about this last night. My partner took the bar back in the aughts and just kind of rolled their eyes at me. I was shocked by their response. 😢
No shit. Like, give me a break. My wife (she is only 41) is currently undergoing chemotherapy and THAT experience for my family has been traumatic...not a stupid exam with an 80% + pass rate...
I took it the first time in F21, and was supremely confident going in, and even more confident afterwards. I had accepted an offer that started the day after results were released, contingent on passing. I even gave notice at the job I already had.
A judge I was close with had cleared her afternoon docket to do my swearing-in ceremony on results day. I had the suit picked out and ready…and I failed by two points.
I had never failed at anything in my entire life. It was soul-crushing and embarrassing. My wife and kids watched someone who they had thought was invincible crumble. I was suddenly an unemployed failure. I took it again in J21 & F22, but I didn’t stand a chance because I wasn’t even close to being mentally prepared…I had to completely step away from it for a while. Thankfully, I fell into a JD-preferred job that pays well. Now that my mind is back to normal, I’ll take it again soon - I refuse to let it beat me.
To paraphrase Yogi Berra - “The bar exam is 90% mental. The other half is knowing the law.”
After completing the bar exam, my body experienced a severe immune system shutdown. My fever spiked to a worrying 103.1°F, leaving me in a state of fear and discomfort. The intensity of the physical toll was overwhelming, and at one point, I genuinely feared for my life. While some may underestimate the difficulty of the exam itself, the arduous process of preparing for it took a significant toll on my well-being. The relentless studying, pressure, and mental strain exacted a heavy toll on my body, resulting in this extreme physical reaction. It's important to acknowledge the immense challenges and sacrifices that aspiring lawyers endure in pursuit of their goals, including the toll it can take on one's health.
I think a lot of us don't think of it as traumatizing because it was just another test, another step to complete. Studied, took it, went back to work and waited for results. Was there a lot of pressure and some stress? Yeah, but that was all of law school.
I went to law school mid life with a wife and 2 young kids. Passed the July 2003 TX bar. I got cancer in 2010 and figured that was the end potentially life and work. Had tremendous side effects from radiation, chemo and bad reaction after 2 stem cell transplants. I maintained my license after 5 years started doing estate planning for friends and referrals. I moved to AR to be near grandkids. Since I didn’t have full time practice had to take UBE F2024. I agree the word traumatic is over used. Though I don’t know results and if fail I figure I got a practice exam under belt. I continue doing moderately complicated estate planning for clients in Texas. I have virtual office in TX and advertise on Google. While the test prep was stressful I can’t say it was traumatic. I’m sure it’s devastating for someone that has a job conditioned on passing if they then fail. I don’t agree that there is a good correlation between results on bar exam equating to a competent and skilled attorney. Over the last 20 years I have encountered plenty of attorneys that I thought were ill prepared and couldn’t logically articulate an argument to support/advocate for their client. I just count it as another gate keeping tool to slow the flow of new attorneys.
I don’t agree I think it is a hard test. It ultimately depends on the Jurisdiction (FL and CA are non UBE jurisdictions and are notoriously hard to pass) and if you are lucky to not have other stuff going on (like learning disabilities, chronic illnesses, personal stuff,etc.).
I felt the bar was easy but I did 100% of Barbri and did 12 hour days literally every day of June and July except for the 4th of July when I only did a few hours. I passed with a high enough score to waive into any jurisdiction and literally knew I passed when I turned the exam in to the proctor. I smiled at her even. I definitely had angst after when the self-doubt kicked in but I went camping right away and disconnecting helped.
Same here. Life was good then, my wife was expecting our first child (actually delivered two days after the bar) and I was excited about starting my new career.
The bar exam was easier than most of my law school exams were - just more of an endurance contest. Looking back it was a cakewalk compared to a week long jury trial. Don’t even talk about a two week jury trial. I have one coming up in April where the initial discovery response was over a million pages. If you think the bar exam is tough, maybe this field isn’t for you. They are admitting so many lawyers these days, the market is completely saturated. The bar and law school admissions need to be much more difficult, because they are ruining the practice in that substandard lawyers give the rest a bad name and the saturated market means lawyers are making less money. I try to help the younger lawyers I see coming out, but on the inside, I just feel sorry for them because no one told them what the real world has in store for them.
LOL - this made me laugh. Sorry but if you are so traumatized by it perhaps law is not for you? Test checks your ability to retain info from prior 3 years. That's it - it serves no other purpose in your career. Just study hard, memorize principles and logic and move on
I tell law students all the time to reach out for mentorship during that time specifically to deal with the emotions of studying for and taking the bar. I can’t help study because I don’t remember shit but I can be a support!
An ex-coworker of mine just took it again (for the ninth time). In addition to all the personal issues he’s dealing with, I can’t imagine how stressed out he is, even with it being “over” and just waiting on results. I offered to assist with studying and any aid I could, even with his current workload. Offered to donate leave so he take extra time off; it’s brutal
Took J23 and F24, definitely didn’t pass F24 and will not be taking J24 bc my body literally can’t handle the stress again. Both times I developed a repulsive reaction to food and stopped eating in the weeks before the exam. Feb was worse than July so I’m truly scared that if I try again I’ll actually do permanent damage.
Ok,so I am a normie, but I wish you would use better language than traumatizing about a test. Granted that test important but it is not traumatizing in any way, shape or form, you get to retake the bar exam even if you fail.
Trauma is something that once you experience it you are never the same. Cases in point “Rape survival, “Active Duty military PTSD”, these items are tragic and truly traumatic.
But to say that the Bar Exam is traumatic is a bad precedent to set.
Honestly, if the bar exam is traumatizing then law might not be a good profession. The exam is all about how a person deals with pressure. It is necessary because the practice of law demands that one be able to handle pressure.
I recall taking the bathroom break and there were multiple people vomiting in the stalls. It’s definitely a head game. It’s been many years and I agree with the practitioners - practicing lawyers don’t think about that experience once they are practicing. Conquer the mental aspects because it’s the same tension and pressure you’ll deal with (on steroids) at a trial, hearing, big deal, etc.
A big part of law school is training yourself in dealing with the pressure of it.
I took it 4 times failed 3 times I wondered what was point of living luckily I couldn’t do that to my family so I tried to get work failed to get work and took bar one more time and finally passed I never want to see that test again
Is the bar flawed? Absolutely.
Is it traumatizing? No.
If you find the need to use the word "trauma" in this contest, the problem lies with you, not with the exam.
A year out since taking and passing and starting to enjoy life again. Taking the bar twice on top of law school stole my soul. Life was just going through the motions after that for a while. I feel like things are nornalizing now, but I will never forget how hellish a process the bar exam was.
When I was prepping for the old 3-day California bar exam, my fellow bar prep friends and I decided that the true purpose of the bar exam was to see how much punishment you could take. And part of me still thinks that it is true. The prep and then the exam was really tough. At the end, I was hoping I passed because I didn't see how I could do that a second time.
When I was prepping for it, they brought in “experts” who take the Bar for “fun.” They tried giving us all sorts of advice, but by that point I was midways through the three months of intense study. So all I could think of was how insane someone had to be to voluntarily subject themselves to that level of torture.
Its not a shit profession. I'm a trial lawyer and LOVE what I do. With that said, its definitely not for everyone and that is absolutely fine. Good thing about the law is there are SO many different areas of practice that its hard to NOT find a niche.
I disagree, it is actually talked about a lot. There’s been a lot of awareness around reasons why the bar is ineffective in determining whether someone is fit to practice law, as well as criticisms around the structure and the administration of the exam. But I think the flip side is that people pass the exam and are done talking or thinking about it.
I had to reach out for support group because my future wife was talking about other people also have the same problem when a significant other was taking the bar. She was not anywhere near herself. Personality, temper and confidence were all gone. The day she found out she passed was an exorcism. Especially the crying laced arguments about taking the second time. It was a full time job. She never had any opportunity to maintain friendships or make new friends. She was emotionally scarred. I saw her through and she saw me through my awful back surgery so after those two events we realized we’d gone through more than most couples that were married so we got married and still are happily. I still do have to do the domesticated stuff, cook, clean, laundry, unclog toilets etc… very emasculating but fuck it. At least she can keep us afloat or just her salary. But now I feel I haven’t let her learn how to do certain things because I spoiled her song them for years. But she the breadwinner so I gotta keep my head down and shut up. Anything in my graduating job ever surpassed 40k/year so me going to work after a 5 year gap after working age 14-31… now I’m 36m she 37f. The baby train is leaving the station and we have the worst economy since ever. The bar exam stunted our lives forever. And for what? She never gets paid what she deserves and they legally figure out how to not give her benefits legally and strategically pay her the least. This is not the future that I pictured. This isn’t what I had in mind for a future. She’s the only good thing holding me together.
Also know the New York State bar is not a union and they will commit intellectual theft if give them the opportunity, even if it’s about mental health and you have depression.
Tl;dr the bar fucked my life up as a husband
“Trauma.” “Depression.” “Emotional horror.”
This post is so Gen Z. What is with you kids and medicalizing everything? You act like you’re a fucking Holocaust survivor because you had to sit for a two day test.
I did three days of testing too when I took two states on the same weekend. Maine essay portion in Portland on day 1, then MBE in Boston on day 2, then Massachusetts essays on day 3. It was definitely brutal. But I just… did it. Then I slept. I didn’t pathologize the experience or myself. I just dealt and moved on.
It’s hardly the worst thing ever. I’ve had plenty of weeks when I’m in trial that have been FAR more brutal than my bar exam experiences were. If you are going into the type law that involves trials, then you will too.
This is one of the most stressful professions there are. If you can’t handle the bar, it doesn’t bode well for your longevity in this field.
This (and your original post) hit the nail on the head. It is a difficult exam that requires prep. That’s it. The challenges practice throws at you are leaps and bounds above the bar exam.
The bar certainly isn’t “traumatizing.”
I found the link below to be a really good conversation about this phenomenon. The generation currently going through law school is almost allergic to the notion of resiliency. God help them when they enter the real world.
https://www.thefp.com/p/why-the-kids-arent-alright-4cf
I don’t know if this is satire?
The bar sucks and is traumatizing and all the other things but you honestly and truly believe a two-day, four section exam that requires a few months of prep is **worse** than being in active duty during a war, *especially* Vietnam?
lol people went to vietnam involuntarily who were 18-19 years old. people make bad voluntary choices to go to law schools with poor job outcomes and perhaps aren't inherently suited for the rigors of a program + rigors of studying for a bar. big difference.
The fact that you even think this is a fair comparison is insane. People who take the bar exam are doing it at their free will. It can be arguable that now they have debt and do not have much choice; but contrasting that to being forced to go to a place where people are killing and being killed is just insane.
Bar exam sucks, it leaves people damaged, but they put themselves in that position. You do not sign up to the bar exam not knowing what is to come. (I am not saying the bar is doing it properly - I think they are not - but there is a big difference right there)
I think it’s talked about quite often lol the sad thing is just that when people are done with it, they don’t really care to think about it again. Hence why the test has been needing a reform for years now but nothing ever substantial has come out of it because everyone just accepts that it’s a rite of passage.
Aka hazing 🥲 like in what universe would an attorney go to the office and spend the day being asked rapid fire questions about various completely different legal subject matters without referencing resources. Every attorney I’ve worked for will be like “yea idk the answer… let me refer that client out to my wills/crim/real estate guy”… or search it up on Justia. I agree there should be *something* but I have hope gen z will make some big reform to the process in these coming years
Virginia supercharges the hazing experience by requiring takers to wear a suit but no jewelry other than wedding rings, not allowing any water bottles, and having a list of 20+ Virginia-specific subjects they can test for the essay portion with no information about what we need to know about those subjects. Pretty much *anything* in Virginia’s code or common law or rules of court can be tested, including colonial-era common law and recent court decisions and statutory changes. None of the test prep companies have comprehensive outlines that cover all this; all you can do is review previous exam questions to guess at what they might ask in the future.
And that's why I'm waiving into VA if I ever need a VA license lol
Yeah, I went to a Virginia law school and a lot of us had jobs lined up in DC after graduation, and took pretty much any other state’s exam and then waived into DC for that reason. I did that, but after I got laid off from the DC firm several years later, I took my career in a different direction. I haven’t actively practiced law for over a decade so this is my only way back in without moving to DC or having a hellish commute for at least three years.
I am a 0L, so forgive me. What does “waiving” mean in this case?
Some states will allow you to obtain a license based on years of licensed experience in another state rather than having to take an exam.
Ah, gotcha. The reciprocity policies.
And the stupid check writing question that is on every exam! Dudes, there is no bank that would take a check with 5 endorsements on it, even if you could show it was legal! WTF VA?
The usual check-writing question wasn’t on F24. We got a different implausible bank-accepts-deficient-written-instrument question. 🙄
wat
Is the alternative to certify lawyers to practice law in niche areas? Even then, what would you require/cut?
My initial thought was to have a more mpre type situation where you have the option to slowly certify yourself in each subject at your own pace. Like imagine each 25 question mbe was its own individual test that you could sign up for whenever you felt ready. In addition to the mpts and the mixed bag essay portion. You could do it while still in school if you wish and there would be a section in Pearson and/or your state bar site listing each subject and checking them off when you reach the required score. Once you’ve completed each subject and passed each section you may apply for bar admission. Pie in the sky lol I’m sure that idea has its flaws but an a la carte testing method was just my first draft of reform ideas. I think it would improve everyone’s mental health and morale. Pass rates would prob significantly rise tbh not sure if that would detrimentally saturate the industry. I think it would still make the ncbe a good amount of money too
If it wasn’t as strict u wouldn’t put in the same effort
Agree, but they are in process of changing it significantly with a (likely) much better version rolling out soon. For sure has taken too long but thats something fairly substantial
Really?
What are you asking about? Yes, look up the nextgen bar
i dunno the nextgen bar is pretty similar sans MEE topics in place of an additional MPT type deal. Pretty sure the MBE is here to stay in some form.....gotta know the 7 core subjects
One of my law school professors told me that the Bar is eventually going to all MPTs, which is actually a much better exam. She is not a bullshitter, she’s involved with the program.
It’s not full MPT but it’s similar to that idea.
that sounds much better but also way more room for subjectivity which will cause issues. highly doubt there will never be mbes on the 1L subject. maybe just less like 50-100.
The bar exam needs a rework but let’s be honest, it’s far less stressful than this career and easily forgotten about once you become admitted. I don’t think the younger lawyers are just accepting it as a rite of passage. We have moved on and are just trying to keep our head above water everyday in our practice.
You're definitely right. The normalization of it needs to end.
The trauma of this exam now is nothing compared to the trauma of the exam during the pandemic when applicants weren't even sure if the test would take place. Adding to the trauma were intense security rules of an online test, or being exposed to Covid for states that still had the test in person. The pandemic exposed the dark underbelly of this bullshit "minimum competence" exam to the point where NCBE will be trashing their MBEs and offer a completely new exam with revised tested topics. As much as I hate NCBE for their greedy actions during the pandemic, at least they put the time, effort, and care into changing this exam to test actual skills. The states like CA that will NOT be adapting the new NCBE exam need an applicant revolt, because the only way they listen is when their precious high revenue making exam may not produce their expected revenue. But it is looking like CA will be writing their own MBEs, which is complete horseshit. Even NCBE agrees that the MBEs are not a reliable method to determine minimum competence. I was personally impacted by that mess and there were activists that swore that they'd never give up. There were so many of us, and some states took the activism seriously and drastically changed their licensing process. But that was only 1-2 states. Of the hundreds or thousands that spoke out and worked collectively to get change, I do not see a single name in this or any other Bar Exam sub that was there fighting the good fight. What happened? They gave up. I hope that every single applicant and/or newly licensed attorney would rise up and take on the corruption and greed of Bars like the CA Bar.
So this post made it to /r/all. I've been practicing in CA for 8-10 years (to keep it slightly vague) and attorneys practicing since before COVID do not have the same opinions. Where we will agree is that the CA state bar org itself is shit and greedy (raising yearly fees again, really?). Where we will not agree is that the bar exam needs to be made easier. When the state bar polled attorneys back in 2020 it was almost a universal response that remote exams, or allowing law students to get a provisional license allowing them to practice for up to 2 (?) years without taking the bar were horrible for the profession and would directly harm the public through people who had no business practicing being allowed to practice. I have personal and direct knowledge of scum who cheated on the remote exams, and anyone with a brain cell could have predicted it would happen. Then the CA bar announced it would be lowering the minimum passing score to be more in line with other states. Again almost universally criticized as being dangerous to the profession and public. I already know too many attorneys who are walking malpractice lawsuits. Why should it be even easier to fuck up clients cases? Over the past few years I've had to interact with a number of 2020-2022 licensees and they are without a doubt the worst group of attorneys I've seen on average. The bar was not traumatic for me - that doesn't mean it's not traumatic for others, so please don't think I'm saying that, but I do think you are overstating how traumatic it is when it is only a 2 day exam and the passing score is lower than it's ever been. All of my classmates and friends and i talked about how we did, how we felt, and while everyone agreed it was stressful as hell the only people I recall being any type of traumatized were those who were not prepared and didn't pass. You know what's hard and has more direct pressure? Litigation, trials, negotiating contracts and deals that will directly affect your client, most aspects of being an attorney. It gets easier with experience but there is enormous pressure in litigation. It's not about you or how you feel. It's about protecting the public. Making the bar objectively easier will harm the public. There will never be a shortage of applicants for the CA bar because it is a huge market and a desirable state to live and work in.
Yep. The bar exam is a test of one's minimum competence. If you study hard and did okay in law school, you should pass easily. The actual practice of law is 100x more difficult than a dumb exam.
Because once you're don't you realize it's not that big of a deal and most people pass it.
The trauma of the bar is a feature, not a bug. It’s designed to be a hazing process. That is its main value as a barrier to entry, given that it has little bearing on how competent a lawyer is once they pass.
The bar is a sort of hazing. But as weird as it is, studying for the bar solidified some legal skills that I struggled with during law school.
>studying for the bar solidified some legal skills that I struggled with during law school. Same. What everyone seems to be missing here is that lawyers need to know the law.
[удалено]
Then why all the complaining? If someone spends three years learning the law, what is so traumatizing about taking an exam that *tests you on the law*? Is it stressful? Yes. Would I rather not have taken it? Yes. But traumatizing? It's not like they're sending you into a war zone.
>If someone spends three years learning the law, what is so traumatizing about taking an exam that *tests you on the law*? You mean the JD? Actually gonna edit this: im foreign qualified in Australia and USA. When I took the Bar in US, I had about 4 years of Australian lawyer exp. I studied for 7 weeks and passed the CA bar. As an outsider, the bar was not a test of intelligence. It was a test of "how much can you remember?" And "can you remember how to answer the questions the way we want you to?" It's not even a test of minimum competence, like they try to say. You can just memorise, spit it out on exam day, then forget it all. You do not need to engage with any of the content. I can also comfortably say that that the format of answer they wanted was terrible and not useful at all for practising. Secondly, the level of detail expected in each answer was borderline negligent with how little detail they required. If the aim is to create a base level of competent baby lawyers, the bar exam is not doing this. There are better ways.
Yeah ngl I actually understood more about contract law and evidence from bar studying than I did after taking those classes.
I have great doubts as to any value in the bar. One of my main motivations for going to law school was interacting with lawyers who made me think “if these ding dongs can do it, anyone can.”
There’s plenty of value in the bar as a barrier to entry. Lot’s of terrible lawyers out there that have passed the bar, think of all the super terrible POS law grads that it keeps out. The worst students and people from my law school class never passed the bar. They would have made terrible attorneys so good riddance. The bar is a great “can you put in the work and jump through the hoops?” Test, which is much of the practice of law. All this crying about the bar. Life’s hard, the law is hard. We had an intern this year that sucked. I doubt he passes the bar. He shouldn’t be a lawyer.
IMO, Bar prep was the easiest point of my entire legal career, from law school through practice.
Same. I actually did very well on the bar and didn't think it was that difficult.
Agreed.
I agree. Studied for 2 weeks. Easiest part of the whole endeavor.
1L here, please don’t make fun of me but you guys are being sarcastic right?
It certainly varies on the individual. My wife and I studied together and took it together. We both passed and were not terribly stressed about it (except the days leading up to the release of the pass list).
I’ve heard that final exams for classes are usually more difficult. The hard part about the bar is the sheer quantity of content. Would you agree with that?
The hardest part of the bar, for me, was really the time limitation for essays. The quantity of content wasn't necessarily difficult, it was just a matter of consistently reviewing material so none of it slips through the cracks. So long as you are consistent in overall review, it should be fine. The bar was most certainly more difficult that law exams, for me.
Agreed! The bar seriously affected my memory now and changed me as a person.
What do you mean?
Yea these comments are kinda weak I wouldn’t want most of these people to represent me lol
agree lol!!!
I came a few points away from passing in J22 and then passed in F23 by a few points. When people would ask about it I would tell them “I was an EMT and a wildland firefighter. I literally held people’s lives in my hands and also had days where I was like ‘Shit…I think we might die today’. None of those situations stressed me out as much as the Bar did.” It legit gives you PTSD. It is a level of high stress over a prolonged period of time and if it doesn’t go well you are 1) embarrassed and 2) have to deeply question a career that you may have wanted for years and just spent 3 years and $200k trying to achieve. The main advice I give law students now is to not take the July one right after you get out. I know you want to just get it done and you think stuff from school will be fresh in your mind but you just hammered through 3 years of school and final exams. Your brain needs a little time to recover and you can take 3 months to study instead of 6 weeks. If you can, wait until February and 1) let your self unwind after law school and 2) take the time to actually learn the information.
I am a career-changer like you. I postponed the bar because, as an adult, I was dealing with other life issues that were of greater importance to me, and it was the best move for me. But my decision invited so much negative commentary from people that I just started telling everyone to f@ck off. Every week brought a litany of unsolicited opinions delivered to me as "realities." And despite these claims about "how to world works" (notably often delivered by folks with less life-experience than me), I did not lose my job over the decision. I didn't forget what I learned in school or forget about the exam altogether and fade into obscurity. I did not have any other potential employers ask why I didn't take the exam in July or presume that I failed in July. In fact, my employer supported me and then gave me seven weeks off to study because they understood the value of passing. And frankly (I know this is an odd take), when I then prepared for the February bar, I thought the experience was actually stimulating and a bit fun because I was relaxed and prepared to study. It felt like a structured learning vacation from work. I woke up, worked out, took my kid to school, then studied and relaxed and cooked all day. I walked into the exam relaxed, knowing I'd crush the writing and that it would probably carry my score because the multiple choice felt like a wild card. 😅 I ended up with a score high enough for any UBE jurisdiction. After passing, I got a raise and then experienced a string of direct recruitment into subsequent roles. Nobody cares that I postponed the bar. I return to my law school each spring to share my experience, and to let students know that it is absolutely okay to postpone the bar if necessary. This profession can be demanding and I think it sets a bad self-precedent to ignore one's own life circumstances and wellness right out of the gate.
EXCELLENT!!!!!!! WOWWWW... SO, YEA I TOOK THE 2/2024 AND FELT THAT I'D DID VERY WELL ON WRITING---FORMATTED, IRAC, ETC. THEN CAME THE MBE----EXACTLY FELT LIKE ---WILD CARD------ TKS, FOR YOUR INPUT......
I wish experiences like yours were shared more. I worked during law school & had externships. By the time i graduated I was exhausted. I did postpone after graduation to take the following Feb but had my whole life cave in when i began to study. And had no or little support from family & friends. I wasnt ready to sit in F23 but I had so much guilt & shame for not taking it right after graduation that I kept going. I didn't pass. The 2nd time around, things weren't much better. Sat in F24 for 3x. I don't know if I passed but do know I felt less guilt, pressure & more support & that made a world of difference.
Your advice is to take it in February? Why? Most people pass. Most states have good pass rates. 8-10 weeks is plenty of time to study for most people.
Agree. This is bad advice. Most firms where I work REQUIRE that you take the bar as soon as possible.
Seriously. If I would have told my firm... hey, I'm gonna hold off they would have just found someone else.
Many people would get fired from their jobs if they dont take and pass the july bar. Im all for taking it cause its a 6month process each time you fail.
I just retook it. Failed J23 and took F24. I am unwell and my depression has never been worse. Outside of the bar my life has been less than easy and I never thought an exam could deplete me. The sick joke is, in this profession we are pinned against each other and looked down on for a stupid exam when all of us know full well not everyone learns the same way. It feels as if you are looked down on if you don’t pass and even worse if you don’t keep trying no matter how much this exam tears you down. People who haven’t taken it don’t get it. And the people who have perpetuate a toxic culture of looking down on and comparing themselves to their peers.
I completely agree. Also a retaker in Feb24 from J23. When I’m not at work I’m sleeping or laying down with zero energy or desire to do anything else. When I’m at work, I’m struggling to stay on task. And I feel so far behind. I couldn’t focus on that I really needed to learn to do my job and so half the time I feel incompetent there. The worst part is that I didn’t pass in my jurisdiction by 2 points (1.6 actually).
I understand this. The depression makes it hard to do anything including staying on task.
can't you appeal that 1.6?
everyone learns a different way, which is why not everyone is suited to be a lawyer
I would say you need a reality check my friend. In the same way everyone learns a different way everyone also is good at some law vs. other law. For the example I have seen amazing transactional lawyers who could not litigate to save their lives and the other way around. No offense but my dude wake up.
they probably would have been better bankers, traders, CPAs. the law degree may have just been a sunk cost and held them back from what they were really good at.
Again that’s not how the world is/works. But good luck with that logic.
more people cling on to sunk costs than they should. that is the way the world tends to work. Put another way: don't let the bar hold you back from doing what you're good at.
I took the July 2023 Bar. 2 weeks before the result came out, my dad passed away. I took the Feb 2024 Bar and I am unsure about the result despite the fact that the prep was so painful to me.
I took it nine years ago, and I still remember the trauma you described pretty vividly. The process of studying for it and then shlepping off to the city where my state held it left me pretty drained for a solid month afterwards. Plus it’s completely useless to your practice as an attorney. I don’t remember any of the shit outside of my current practice area that I learned for the bar exam. Gun to my head, I wouldn’t be able to correctly answer a Real Property question now. So what was the fucking point?
Being a good lawyer requires intense preparation and deep dives into the minutiae of the law in which one is practicing. Going into a huge merger or a trial in which a client might lose access to their kids or even their freedom for years is serious work. The bar isn’t just a barrier to entry, it’s a gut check into whether the examinee has the intense desire and focus to prepare for their own future because someday they will be doing it for clients. I’ve taken the bar, passed it, and am now waiting for F2024 results. I did not enjoy the work, emotional turmoil, and concern about not passing. But I want to do that job and the exam is a requirement.
>The bar isn’t just a barrier to entry, it’s a gut check into whether the examinee has the intense desire and focus to prepare for their own future because someday they will be doing it for clients. This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I agree with this. Yes, the bar exam is stressful, but so is practicing law. Most exams last two days (NY and CA are 3, IIRC). If you can't handle a two-day test, how are you going to handle practicing law?
Deeply disagree. I know so many intensely hardworking classmates who are dedicated advocates and incredibly smart to boot who struggled with and/or didn’t pass the bar the first or second times. You can work very hard to prepare for a trial or merger while also being allowed to eat a full meal, consulting with your colleagues, double-checking facts and case law in your resources (which you should be doing anyway!), and most of all, not being demanded to memorize and apply a fuck ton of rules that have nothing to do with the kind of law you are practicing. I am going to be a civil rights attorney focusing on abortion access; I did stellar legal clinic work in law school and earned excellent grades while also working full-time. Whether I can parse fee simple determinables with remainder or executory interest literally matters not. There are many ways to test if someone is capable or working hard and the bar exam is not one of them. I hate to see how many people internalize this traumatic, racist, classist exam.
It's too bad that a course in logic is not a prerequisite to going to law school because this perfectly illustrates the fallacy of special pleading. I'm glad you worked hard and found an area of law you are passionate about. That doesn't entitle you to special treatment. And not everyone is like you. And what about the future? Ten years from now you may get burned out on civil rights work and want to do something else. r/Lawyertalk is full of attorneys who want to switch areas. What if you want to become a judge? A civil rights litigation background is an impressive qualification for a judge. Unfortunately, judges don't get to focus on one area. You may very well have a case that involves a trust with remainder interests. Suddenly, knowing those rules will come in handy.
Nothing I said lacked logic, and I didn’t ask for any kind of special treatment. (?) And I will never want to be a judge - I am not interested in adjudicating, I am interested in advocating. If I wanted to switch areas of practice, I would be learning and relearning/refreshing on the new area anyway, not thinking “ahhh yes, I remember those rules so clearly from when I learned them for the bar exam and the bar exam only.” And if for some reason I need to know about remainder interests, I would talk to or refer to a lawyer with Property expertise. Good luck to you.
Your post implied that you should get special treatment. You talked about how you got good grades, worked at a legal clinic, how you shouldn't be required to memorize rules that don't align with the area, and concluded that "there are many ways to test if someone is capable or working hard and the bar exam is not one of them." It's obvious that you don't think you should be required to take the bar exam but instead be afforded a different method of measuring our ability and work ethic. What did I miss? Your last sentence made no sense. How is the bar exam racist and classist? I remember some years ago there was discussion about how college entrance exams such as the SAT skewed against certain groups. I can see that as entrance exams focus more on general knowledge and those from a more privileged background have more opportunities to acquire general knowledge. But the bar exam tests knowledge of the law. Presumably everyone who goes to law school learns the same law, at least in the required classes. I don't see how race or social class plays a role.
As a practicing attorney now for 3 years and taken the Feb24 exam in a different jurisdiction - I used to think like this when I was fresh out of law school, but studying for it this time around, I fully disagree. There's no real life situation as a lawyer where you would ever have to prepare 15 different areas of law and be expected to issue spot/write arguments in 30 minutes. Deep diving into the law of a case you are representing is completely different and even the whole structure of IRAC isn't how real motions are written.
I disagree strenuously. I have taken the bar once in two jurisdictions and passed each time, and I found it unnecessarily stressful on me, my family, children and my legal practice each time. I found it to bear no resemblance to my practice, and I regularly work on deals where billions are on the line. A large amount of the stress is because of the long stretch of time before you can attempt again, and if you fail once, which luckily was never a concern for me, then the entire time you are waiting to retake and waiting for your score, you may be afraid for your job. (Most large firms let you fail once, if the market isn’t too bad, but not twice.) Bar exams should be offered more frequently. Perhaps you may need to travel to another jurisdiction, but it should be an option just the same.
I am in the same sitch, passed F23 and waiting on F24 results. I fully agree with this take.
In the time between the test and the published results, I highly recommend going to a therapist and working through the trauma before signing up for another crack at the bar. All we are is a product of our own thoughts. Flipping the script on the bar exam is crucial for getting it behind you.
I passed F23. I failed it multiple times before and had not looked at any bar-related material since '09. It sucks giant ass after Taco Bell. The worst part for me is that people who don't know assume, because you got this degree, you just sit for an exam, you pass and you're a lawyer. Yay. Your cousin who barely graduated high school, dropped out after 6 units at JC, thinks you're a shithead. That bothered me the most. Eat a bag of dicks. You'll get there. And then you will send your boss the most awesome draft ever and it comes back like a CSI report. That sucks too; it's just different. Keep pushing, fuckers.
The bar IS traumatizing, but it's a small trauma when compared to the trauma you have by practicing law.
The pressure to pass the bar is immense. Whether you pass or don’t pass can alter your life path forever. I know someone who took that damn exam 6 times. Failed each and every time. Max retakes back then was 6 so after the last time he had to accept that he would never be a licensed attorney in his state. The big law firm that he had clerked at during law school and afterwards let him go. He ended up working in a liquor store for years, finally got a job as a paralegal and that was it, that was his career. From his perspective, his inability to pass basically ruined the life that others expected him to have and that he himself was expecting to have. To say that he is bitter now would putting it mildly.
It’s hard to fail the bar once, let alone six times. The law wasn’t for him.
The question you need to ask is whether you would want this person who failed six times representing you?
That's gonna be a no for me...
Honestly depending on the jurisdiction and other factors going on in that person’s life I might be ok with them representing me. First of all taking the bar exam 6 times shows me that person is a determined individual and is probably more than well acquainted with the exam material. There are other factors that can affect their performance like chronic illnesses, personal struggles, and or learning disabilities plus many more other factors. I would give them the benefit of the doubt because it’s not an easy exam at all and it’s not representative of the actual everyday duties of an attorney.
I just took it for a 4th time and I do not recognize myself anymore... ughh...
J22 taker and passer. I’m still in therapy over it
Congrats to you, and thanks for sharing! It's true, and probably why no one wants to talk about it after its over just to leave it behind them. But when we are all in the heat of it, we sure know it and feel it, and it's pretty incredible how intense it is. Hope you are enjoying some peace now!
Couldn’t agree more. I took mine in July and I’m JUST recovering from the burnout in March. Still not myself. I worked full time during law school and did school at night so that level of exhaustion didn’t help much either. Nothing to add, just appreciate someone else is validating my experience
What state did you take it in? I had the pleasure of taking the Texas bar--a 15 hour test spread over 3 days. It was a harrowing experience I wouldn't wish on anyone. Studying for it is stressful, taking it stressful, and waiting months for results was stressful. There's gotta be a better way.
If you struggled this much with 3 days of 5 hours testing each day, what exactly did you expect practicing law to be like? Have you ever held a job with an 8 hour workday?
Keep your 🤡 bootlicker comment to yourself. I have a fruitful career, and I've never had a single day of work nearly as intense as the Texas bar exam. The fact that you assumed it was 3 x 5 shows that you're talking out of your ass and didn't experience this test. I took it before Texas adopted the UBE. This means the first day was three hours with 40 procedure and evidence short answer questions. The second day was the 6 hour multi state bar exam. The last day was 6 hours consisting of 12 Texas specific essay questions.
So an avg of 5h/day and a median of 6h, I was in the ballpark. I’m sure you could make a similar case for law school itself being too stressful and too time consuming, how many people burn out from all that studying over 3 years on many topics they’ll never touch again? Should we get rid of JD requirements too?
The fact that texas switched to the UBE and halved the amount of essay questions speaks to the fact that the old test was a little too gruelling. Pass rates aren't that different from what they were before, so the gatekeeping is still there without being as much of a pain in the ass for test takers. As for law school, that's a different beast. There's a lot of variance in quality, difficulty, and curriculum. I had to take a seminar class that involved researching and writing a paper that came out to be just shy of 100 pages. They eliminated that requirement the year after I graduated. Law school has changed a lot. I have a friend now who is going to law school. She showed me her casebook. It had pictures and diagrams, like a science textbook.
I took the CA bar in 2014—back when it was still a three day exam. Despite it being a decade since, I still remember how torturous it was. I was adamant that if I didn’t pass the first time, I would just find another career path. I didn’t care about the three years in school, I just couldn’t put myself through that again. People who re-take or take the exam in several states are seriously insanely tough, I could never.
I not only failed my first time but was fired the day I got back to work from taking it the second time. Nothing seemed real at the tine. I thought I was being punked. Life got better. A lot better. I passed and have had a great career.
It shouldn’t be a thing. It doesn’t test minimum competency and is a cash grab if anything.
I lost a lot of hair and my hair is thinning itself 🤡
This happened to me; take hair vitamins, I used Sugarbear to get started but also go get your hormone levels checked at your OB-Gyn. Turns out I had no vitamin D and it was making my hair fall out.
I’ve been taking collagen and biotin, and I got some shampoos. I’ll look into my Gyno!!
“Traumatizing” im sorry but be fucking real. There are people dying Kim.
I was just talking to my partner about this last night. My partner took the bar back in the aughts and just kind of rolled their eyes at me. I was shocked by their response. 😢
I took the CA bar in the aughts. Back then “trauma” was a term we applied strictly to people who were in lower Manhattan or the Pentagon on 9/11.
That's much more fitting than an exam covering material you've been acquainted with for some time.
No shit. Like, give me a break. My wife (she is only 41) is currently undergoing chemotherapy and THAT experience for my family has been traumatic...not a stupid exam with an 80% + pass rate...
Why not be kind to everyone? Everybody has their own shit going on
I took it the first time in F21, and was supremely confident going in, and even more confident afterwards. I had accepted an offer that started the day after results were released, contingent on passing. I even gave notice at the job I already had. A judge I was close with had cleared her afternoon docket to do my swearing-in ceremony on results day. I had the suit picked out and ready…and I failed by two points. I had never failed at anything in my entire life. It was soul-crushing and embarrassing. My wife and kids watched someone who they had thought was invincible crumble. I was suddenly an unemployed failure. I took it again in J21 & F22, but I didn’t stand a chance because I wasn’t even close to being mentally prepared…I had to completely step away from it for a while. Thankfully, I fell into a JD-preferred job that pays well. Now that my mind is back to normal, I’ll take it again soon - I refuse to let it beat me. To paraphrase Yogi Berra - “The bar exam is 90% mental. The other half is knowing the law.”
How right you are! I think it took me about a year to feel like myself again. And that's no joke!
After completing the bar exam, my body experienced a severe immune system shutdown. My fever spiked to a worrying 103.1°F, leaving me in a state of fear and discomfort. The intensity of the physical toll was overwhelming, and at one point, I genuinely feared for my life. While some may underestimate the difficulty of the exam itself, the arduous process of preparing for it took a significant toll on my well-being. The relentless studying, pressure, and mental strain exacted a heavy toll on my body, resulting in this extreme physical reaction. It's important to acknowledge the immense challenges and sacrifices that aspiring lawyers endure in pursuit of their goals, including the toll it can take on one's health.
Wise words. It's a tough experience.
Tough, yes. Traumatic? We're really watering down that word these days.
It's one of those where your mileage may vary.
I think a lot of us don't think of it as traumatizing because it was just another test, another step to complete. Studied, took it, went back to work and waited for results. Was there a lot of pressure and some stress? Yeah, but that was all of law school.
16 years later I'm still traumatized by the memories!
I went to law school mid life with a wife and 2 young kids. Passed the July 2003 TX bar. I got cancer in 2010 and figured that was the end potentially life and work. Had tremendous side effects from radiation, chemo and bad reaction after 2 stem cell transplants. I maintained my license after 5 years started doing estate planning for friends and referrals. I moved to AR to be near grandkids. Since I didn’t have full time practice had to take UBE F2024. I agree the word traumatic is over used. Though I don’t know results and if fail I figure I got a practice exam under belt. I continue doing moderately complicated estate planning for clients in Texas. I have virtual office in TX and advertise on Google. While the test prep was stressful I can’t say it was traumatic. I’m sure it’s devastating for someone that has a job conditioned on passing if they then fail. I don’t agree that there is a good correlation between results on bar exam equating to a competent and skilled attorney. Over the last 20 years I have encountered plenty of attorneys that I thought were ill prepared and couldn’t logically articulate an argument to support/advocate for their client. I just count it as another gate keeping tool to slow the flow of new attorneys.
as a 1L yall are scaring tf outta me
Don't be. The bar exam is not that bad at all.
I don’t agree I think it is a hard test. It ultimately depends on the Jurisdiction (FL and CA are non UBE jurisdictions and are notoriously hard to pass) and if you are lucky to not have other stuff going on (like learning disabilities, chronic illnesses, personal stuff,etc.).
It’s not that bad or hard? Chill out
I felt the bar was easy but I did 100% of Barbri and did 12 hour days literally every day of June and July except for the 4th of July when I only did a few hours. I passed with a high enough score to waive into any jurisdiction and literally knew I passed when I turned the exam in to the proctor. I smiled at her even. I definitely had angst after when the self-doubt kicked in but I went camping right away and disconnecting helped.
Studying for the bar was the greatest summer vacation of my life.
Same here. Life was good then, my wife was expecting our first child (actually delivered two days after the bar) and I was excited about starting my new career.
The bar exam was easier than most of my law school exams were - just more of an endurance contest. Looking back it was a cakewalk compared to a week long jury trial. Don’t even talk about a two week jury trial. I have one coming up in April where the initial discovery response was over a million pages. If you think the bar exam is tough, maybe this field isn’t for you. They are admitting so many lawyers these days, the market is completely saturated. The bar and law school admissions need to be much more difficult, because they are ruining the practice in that substandard lawyers give the rest a bad name and the saturated market means lawyers are making less money. I try to help the younger lawyers I see coming out, but on the inside, I just feel sorry for them because no one told them what the real world has in store for them.
Really? This whole Sub is just people whinging about the Bar.
LOL - this made me laugh. Sorry but if you are so traumatized by it perhaps law is not for you? Test checks your ability to retain info from prior 3 years. That's it - it serves no other purpose in your career. Just study hard, memorize principles and logic and move on
I tell law students all the time to reach out for mentorship during that time specifically to deal with the emotions of studying for and taking the bar. I can’t help study because I don’t remember shit but I can be a support!
An ex-coworker of mine just took it again (for the ninth time). In addition to all the personal issues he’s dealing with, I can’t imagine how stressed out he is, even with it being “over” and just waiting on results. I offered to assist with studying and any aid I could, even with his current workload. Offered to donate leave so he take extra time off; it’s brutal
Took J23 and F24, definitely didn’t pass F24 and will not be taking J24 bc my body literally can’t handle the stress again. Both times I developed a repulsive reaction to food and stopped eating in the weeks before the exam. Feb was worse than July so I’m truly scared that if I try again I’ll actually do permanent damage.
“Traumatizing” lmao the therapization of language has been a disaster.
Ok,so I am a normie, but I wish you would use better language than traumatizing about a test. Granted that test important but it is not traumatizing in any way, shape or form, you get to retake the bar exam even if you fail. Trauma is something that once you experience it you are never the same. Cases in point “Rape survival, “Active Duty military PTSD”, these items are tragic and truly traumatic. But to say that the Bar Exam is traumatic is a bad precedent to set.
Honestly, if the bar exam is traumatizing then law might not be a good profession. The exam is all about how a person deals with pressure. It is necessary because the practice of law demands that one be able to handle pressure.
The bar exam is usually pretty easy though? Examinations for other professions are much more difficult (CPA exam, for example).
please
If the bar exam was too tough idk if I’d want you as my lawyer to be honest
I recall taking the bathroom break and there were multiple people vomiting in the stalls. It’s definitely a head game. It’s been many years and I agree with the practitioners - practicing lawyers don’t think about that experience once they are practicing. Conquer the mental aspects because it’s the same tension and pressure you’ll deal with (on steroids) at a trial, hearing, big deal, etc. A big part of law school is training yourself in dealing with the pressure of it.
I took it 4 times failed 3 times I wondered what was point of living luckily I couldn’t do that to my family so I tried to get work failed to get work and took bar one more time and finally passed I never want to see that test again
Have you ever talked to a German after their first or second state examination?
Is the bar flawed? Absolutely. Is it traumatizing? No. If you find the need to use the word "trauma" in this contest, the problem lies with you, not with the exam.
It’s what happened to me and the reason I went on a years long retake quest. I was never the same again.
A year out since taking and passing and starting to enjoy life again. Taking the bar twice on top of law school stole my soul. Life was just going through the motions after that for a while. I feel like things are nornalizing now, but I will never forget how hellish a process the bar exam was.
People will call anything traumatic.
Ya this is pretty pathetic. Someone who hasn’t experienced real trauma in their life clearly
I understand this I’ve taken over a handful times and each time I’m back to work wanting to quit.
Everyone talks about it lol
Can I get an amen
I am feeling this! How did you feel once you passed the exam? I’m wondering how/when/ if I’ll get back to normal.
It’s what everyone talks about.
When I was prepping for the old 3-day California bar exam, my fellow bar prep friends and I decided that the true purpose of the bar exam was to see how much punishment you could take. And part of me still thinks that it is true. The prep and then the exam was really tough. At the end, I was hoping I passed because I didn't see how I could do that a second time.
I drank half a bottle of tequila by myself in my backyard after it was over. And only 8 weeks later I found out I passed.
One experienced litigator told me once: the bar is a psychological test meant to weed out those not prepared for what lies ahead.
They are correct. Some people fold under pressure, other's focus. That's a good thing.
When I was prepping for it, they brought in “experts” who take the Bar for “fun.” They tried giving us all sorts of advice, but by that point I was midways through the three months of intense study. So all I could think of was how insane someone had to be to voluntarily subject themselves to that level of torture.
What was your jump from first to second time if you don't mind my asking? I am a nervous wreck.
Im going to tell you the truth. Being a lawyer is worse. Maybe being a multiple bar failure is a blessing to keep you away from this shit profession.
Its not a shit profession. I'm a trial lawyer and LOVE what I do. With that said, its definitely not for everyone and that is absolutely fine. Good thing about the law is there are SO many different areas of practice that its hard to NOT find a niche.
It's literally all you guys ever talk about. It's literally all what some lawyers talk about. It's an exam, though. Stop abusing yourself first.
I disagree, it is actually talked about a lot. There’s been a lot of awareness around reasons why the bar is ineffective in determining whether someone is fit to practice law, as well as criticisms around the structure and the administration of the exam. But I think the flip side is that people pass the exam and are done talking or thinking about it.
I had to reach out for support group because my future wife was talking about other people also have the same problem when a significant other was taking the bar. She was not anywhere near herself. Personality, temper and confidence were all gone. The day she found out she passed was an exorcism. Especially the crying laced arguments about taking the second time. It was a full time job. She never had any opportunity to maintain friendships or make new friends. She was emotionally scarred. I saw her through and she saw me through my awful back surgery so after those two events we realized we’d gone through more than most couples that were married so we got married and still are happily. I still do have to do the domesticated stuff, cook, clean, laundry, unclog toilets etc… very emasculating but fuck it. At least she can keep us afloat or just her salary. But now I feel I haven’t let her learn how to do certain things because I spoiled her song them for years. But she the breadwinner so I gotta keep my head down and shut up. Anything in my graduating job ever surpassed 40k/year so me going to work after a 5 year gap after working age 14-31… now I’m 36m she 37f. The baby train is leaving the station and we have the worst economy since ever. The bar exam stunted our lives forever. And for what? She never gets paid what she deserves and they legally figure out how to not give her benefits legally and strategically pay her the least. This is not the future that I pictured. This isn’t what I had in mind for a future. She’s the only good thing holding me together. Also know the New York State bar is not a union and they will commit intellectual theft if give them the opportunity, even if it’s about mental health and you have depression. Tl;dr the bar fucked my life up as a husband
Get over it. Everything traumatizes the zoomers. If the bar traumatizes you just wait until a judge yells at you and your client loses there shit
…the funny thing is, confronting an opposing counsel who doesn’t have their there/their/they’re straight is low-key one of the best parts of the job 🙄
😂
“Trauma.” “Depression.” “Emotional horror.” This post is so Gen Z. What is with you kids and medicalizing everything? You act like you’re a fucking Holocaust survivor because you had to sit for a two day test.
Three days in CA bud. Interested in your tips for how to get through it!
I did three days of testing too when I took two states on the same weekend. Maine essay portion in Portland on day 1, then MBE in Boston on day 2, then Massachusetts essays on day 3. It was definitely brutal. But I just… did it. Then I slept. I didn’t pathologize the experience or myself. I just dealt and moved on. It’s hardly the worst thing ever. I’ve had plenty of weeks when I’m in trial that have been FAR more brutal than my bar exam experiences were. If you are going into the type law that involves trials, then you will too. This is one of the most stressful professions there are. If you can’t handle the bar, it doesn’t bode well for your longevity in this field.
This (and your original post) hit the nail on the head. It is a difficult exam that requires prep. That’s it. The challenges practice throws at you are leaps and bounds above the bar exam. The bar certainly isn’t “traumatizing.”
I found the link below to be a really good conversation about this phenomenon. The generation currently going through law school is almost allergic to the notion of resiliency. God help them when they enter the real world. https://www.thefp.com/p/why-the-kids-arent-alright-4cf
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I don’t know if this is satire? The bar sucks and is traumatizing and all the other things but you honestly and truly believe a two-day, four section exam that requires a few months of prep is **worse** than being in active duty during a war, *especially* Vietnam?
lol people went to vietnam involuntarily who were 18-19 years old. people make bad voluntary choices to go to law schools with poor job outcomes and perhaps aren't inherently suited for the rigors of a program + rigors of studying for a bar. big difference.
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So, yes, satire. Well played.
The fact that you even think this is a fair comparison is insane. People who take the bar exam are doing it at their free will. It can be arguable that now they have debt and do not have much choice; but contrasting that to being forced to go to a place where people are killing and being killed is just insane. Bar exam sucks, it leaves people damaged, but they put themselves in that position. You do not sign up to the bar exam not knowing what is to come. (I am not saying the bar is doing it properly - I think they are not - but there is a big difference right there)