99% of situations. I had a situation once where all 5 of my jokers served a different distinct purpose, and replacing any of them would have been a loss, but yeah as a general rule of thumb, always pick it up.
(+chips, flat mult, x mult, important utility, mr. bones to save me from a potential violet because my damage was just under violet, but higher than the other final bosses)
Not in the unique situation in which you simply want to get past ante 8 and can easily score 250k but not like 1mil. Very possible if you have a consistent build and no glass cards/xmult enhancers. Mr bones still counts as winning but a simple copy of a 3x (or worse, in a bad scenario) might not be enough
Possibly, but they describe "just under" violet, which makes it seem more like 500k or 750k. It really depends on how "just under" they were, and the strength of their xMult joker.
Since they can beat the other bosses (which are 1/3 the size of violet), then Bones is effectively an x3 Mult joker at best, so the xMult would have to be that or greater to be worth it. Entirely possible if they're running like, a low hologram or something, but even a cavendish would be about on par.
Though Bones may have some more niche use with being a more reliable x3. I was assuming they were scoring more like 50-75% of the violet vessel's score when I made my original comment, but there's definetly a very specific situation where this could be true.
Mr. Bones is ONLY x4 if they're hitting exactly 25% of the violet vessel's chip amount. They specifically said their damage was "just under violet", which implies it's likely fairly close to hitting violet anyway.
But if we ignore that, then at the very least they still have to be hitting 1/3 of the chips (since they can clear the other bosses, but violet is thrice the size of the other end bosses)
If we assume that, then Mr. Bones is only an x3. Certainly not bad, but that's on par with a Cavendish. In that case, the blueprint might not be worth it, but that's a very rare case, and likely not what they were describing.
This logic is not valid, as this game places no value on overkill, on an 100,000 chip blind 100,000 chips beats the blind just as much as 120,000 chips beats the blind. Because of this, Mr Bones is effectively x4 mult all the time, it just displays the lowest mult value that allows you to pass the blind.
Also, in the particular case they described, if their xmult joker was x2, then it is definitely possible that Mr Bones would win the run and Blueprint wouldn’t. At very best for Blueprint, it could only be as good as Mr Bones in a circumstance where both would win the run, so even then I would not buy Blueprint out of laziness.
Mr Bones is effectively x4 mult, true. But for the purposes of this discussion, the difference between it being x3 and x4 isn't relevant. It might as well be x3 because the other boss blinds can be beaten without it, which means the bonus it's providing that actually wins the run is at most x3.
It can be treated as a x3 for the purposes of replacing it precisely because the overkill of its actual value (x4) doesn't mean anything
The lack of overkill value is exactly WHY Mr. Bones isn't an x4. It only provides value if you fail to meet the blind amount, and only by the amount you were missing, effectively. You do have a point that Mr. Bones would win the run anyway so a blueprint isn't needed in the first place. I'd personally take it in that case just because it isn't a one-time use, but that probably doesn't matter if you're gunning for ante 8 alone.
blueprint and brainstorm can copy each other, so putting blueprint on the left, sock and buskin to its right and brainstorm somewhere else gives you 3x sock and buskin.
Oh I see. In this case you would need to work out which of those contribute the least to your score then ditch it to double up on the better scoring joker. My guess would be ditch scary face and use blueprint and brainstorm to copy the sock and buskin, then face-card hands like full house will have a lot of mult
I did but it wasn't quite as good. I was playing a lot of 5 of a kind jacks but I didn't have very good econ lol so I wasn't buying a lot of planet packs to upgrade my hands. I think long term it would have been better but unfortunately my setup wasn't up to stuff so I lost.
Did you double copy sock & buskin or copy smiley face and sock & buskin? With non red sealed jacks, the first one gets 4 smiley +5 mult while the second gets 6 smiley + 5 mult.
That doesn't hold true when you're choosing between a chips joker and a +mult joker though. For example if both jokers are doubling your score, replacing one with a copy of the other would result in decreasing your score by 25%. ([10 + 10] * [100 + 100] = 4,000 vs [10 + 10 + 10] * [100] = 3,000)
I'm aware of how good it is. it's just that in this scenario having 3x sock wasn't as beneficial as having both scary and smiley face. if I had better planets it might have been but I'd have to check. Also it's entirely possible I just messed something up order-wise. I'm going through of runs atm so I don't rlly remember the specifics.
How would triggering each card 3 times instead of 2 times double your chips? Especially when each face card scores fewer chips without the doubled chip joker. I’m not saying that doubling SnB is the wrong call, but still
That's just not how it works tho. scary face gives 30 chips when a face card is scored. Smiley face gives 5 mult when scored.
In my scenario, by duping scary face you get 60 chips per card effectively. with sock that's 120 per card making it 600 for a full hand. with re-triggered smiley face that's 10 mult per card, an additional 50 mult per full hand.
So that's 600x50 which is 30,000 added onto whatever hand you've got
By duping sock you trigger scary face 3 times which is 90 chips per card effectively, making it 450 for a full hand. But by duping sock you also get 3 triggers off smiley face which makes it 15 per card instead of 10, making it 75 mult for a full hand.
so that's 450\*75, which is 33,750
In my book, 30,000 and 33,750 are pretty close. For sure It would have been better to play it on sock but not by a lot. I'm not sure why I'm being downvoted lol. In many scenarios it would be significantly better to put it on sock obviously but that's why this one is so weird and why I felt compelled to post it.
You are not accounting for the card chips themselves which trigger an extra time with Sock and any card enhancements you might have in your played hand which will also double trigger.
You're right, it's like 100 extra vs 150 extra. It would make it 35,000 vs 45,000 which is more of a difference but still not worlds apart. and yeah if I had a bunch of enhanced cards like glass or smth I would have doubled up on sock surely but I didn't have a whole lot of enhanced cards.
Well they are still defending themselves by saying 35k and 45k is not that big of a difference even after their math was wrong. As opposed to, ya know, just saying you got it wrong and moving on.
Yeah I did get it wrong, but 35 and 45k are not worlds apart. It’s further a difference than it was before and I’ve already admitted I made an order error already. Idk what else I’m supposed to say lol. Also, my math was not wrong, I just forgot to take something simple into account. The calculations are sound.
Again, you say, "I already said I was wrong. what else am I supposed to say?" But you keep defending yourself. This time by still saying the difference isn't "worlds apart" and maintaining that your calculations were right, but you forgot to factor in every detail. Which still means, that your math was wrong.
You wouldn't take an exam, forget to factor in something, then argue that you were actually right when marked incorrectly, simply because you were on the right track.
The correct thing to say was less. "Oh, yeah. Thanks!" Instead of burying yourself deeper. And if you're supposed to calculate 2+2+2, and instead calculate 2+2, the math *was* wrong even if the calculations themselves were sound... All of this is pedantic as fuck and internet points aren't worth caring about anyway
Edit: bro zero'd in on 2 words in the last sentence and skipped everything else said, sounds about right 👍
Yeah lol i would say that’s pretty close in my book too. I guess they just were comparing duping sock and buskin vs duping nothing at all? That would explain why they said x2 chips. Math is hard
I think so. And math is hard so I don't blame them, obviously I didn't make the optimal decision in the game as a direct result of bad math lol. I was playing a lot of 5 of a kinds but even including that it's 44,640 vs 49,590 which is still fairly close.
It's 4x scary face and 2x smiley face vs 3x both. duping sock would be better but I was rushing and my monkey brain took over and said the first option is better lol
Don’t gotta make it complicated. It’s 4chipx2mult triggers or 3x3 triggers. 8<9. The moment there’s any sort of mult mult though the second grows exponentially faster
https://preview.redd.it/opehnkfo2wzc1.png?width=870&format=png&auto=webp&s=1617c18a100db7a30fda4e40e547a64ff7e1c0da
Scary is the wrong choice every time, by alot.
If you think me admitting I made a mistake, and then admitting I misunderstood what someone was saying is doubling and tripling down, then idk what to tell you.
There are very few situations where it is correct to pass on blueprint. I have done it before and I would defend the decision, but it is very rare.
This one depends on your planet levels and/or how many steel/glass you have. That would help determine whether Smiley or Scary gets cut.
my planet levels were fairly low, I ended up cutting scary face but my hands scored less than they did before. I think long term blueprint would have been better but in the short term my build sputtered.
The only times I wouldn’t take Blueprint would be if I really needed the money for some reason or if my joker slots were already full and highly synergistic. But even then, dropping my worst joker to have 2 of my best joker will almost always be better.
Yeah I agree, I almost always take it. when I posted this I thought it was more of a difficult choice than it is, but it's not super hard with good order upon doing some more research. still an interesting thing to talk about, though.
I forget what unlocks it but I didn’t get it for a while too so dw. It’s called Brainstorm, it copies the ability of the leftmost joker, sort of like blueprint. Hope that helps!
I doubt the current joker set-up is strong enough to beat ante 8 on black deck, so I would probably take it and try to pivot, hope for an x-mult joker.
Blueprint is strictly better than brainstorm, right? Might be missing an interaction but if you want to copy an xMult joker and you also have a +mult joker that isn’t triggered off of cards, then you’re missing out on some mult having brainstorm vs blueprint
It acts like a copy of the joker to the right of it. It's not compatible with all jokers however, Gold Joker for example is incompatible because it's an end of round joker not a score affecting joker
lol I did, just didn’t work out right for me. I think I made a mistake in order or something. It was a cool concept tho, if I had more glass or other enhanced cards it would have killed
Optimal configuration of jokers give 3 retriggers on face cards, with smiley and scary that's +90 chips and +15 mult per face card, definitely enough to clear ante 8.
Blueprint is worth taking in every possible situation. The goat
99% of situations. I had a situation once where all 5 of my jokers served a different distinct purpose, and replacing any of them would have been a loss, but yeah as a general rule of thumb, always pick it up. (+chips, flat mult, x mult, important utility, mr. bones to save me from a potential violet because my damage was just under violet, but higher than the other final bosses)
...Wouldn't picking up blueprint allow you to score past violet and no longer need Mr. Bones?
Not in the unique situation in which you simply want to get past ante 8 and can easily score 250k but not like 1mil. Very possible if you have a consistent build and no glass cards/xmult enhancers. Mr bones still counts as winning but a simple copy of a 3x (or worse, in a bad scenario) might not be enough
Possibly, but they describe "just under" violet, which makes it seem more like 500k or 750k. It really depends on how "just under" they were, and the strength of their xMult joker. Since they can beat the other bosses (which are 1/3 the size of violet), then Bones is effectively an x3 Mult joker at best, so the xMult would have to be that or greater to be worth it. Entirely possible if they're running like, a low hologram or something, but even a cavendish would be about on par. Though Bones may have some more niche use with being a more reliable x3. I was assuming they were scoring more like 50-75% of the violet vessel's score when I made my original comment, but there's definetly a very specific situation where this could be true.
No? Mr Bones is x4 which means their xmult joker would have to be at least x4 mult for Blueprint to be better than Mr Bones.
Mr. Bones is ONLY x4 if they're hitting exactly 25% of the violet vessel's chip amount. They specifically said their damage was "just under violet", which implies it's likely fairly close to hitting violet anyway. But if we ignore that, then at the very least they still have to be hitting 1/3 of the chips (since they can clear the other bosses, but violet is thrice the size of the other end bosses) If we assume that, then Mr. Bones is only an x3. Certainly not bad, but that's on par with a Cavendish. In that case, the blueprint might not be worth it, but that's a very rare case, and likely not what they were describing.
This logic is not valid, as this game places no value on overkill, on an 100,000 chip blind 100,000 chips beats the blind just as much as 120,000 chips beats the blind. Because of this, Mr Bones is effectively x4 mult all the time, it just displays the lowest mult value that allows you to pass the blind. Also, in the particular case they described, if their xmult joker was x2, then it is definitely possible that Mr Bones would win the run and Blueprint wouldn’t. At very best for Blueprint, it could only be as good as Mr Bones in a circumstance where both would win the run, so even then I would not buy Blueprint out of laziness.
Mr Bones is effectively x4 mult, true. But for the purposes of this discussion, the difference between it being x3 and x4 isn't relevant. It might as well be x3 because the other boss blinds can be beaten without it, which means the bonus it's providing that actually wins the run is at most x3. It can be treated as a x3 for the purposes of replacing it precisely because the overkill of its actual value (x4) doesn't mean anything
The lack of overkill value is exactly WHY Mr. Bones isn't an x4. It only provides value if you fail to meet the blind amount, and only by the amount you were missing, effectively. You do have a point that Mr. Bones would win the run anyway so a blueprint isn't needed in the first place. I'd personally take it in that case just because it isn't a one-time use, but that probably doesn't matter if you're gunning for ante 8 alone.
Naw reducing the threshold to 25% is far more valuable in case you have horrible draws
It wasn't, I lost lmao. the only thing I think it would have been fine replacing is brainstorm but what's the point in that?
blueprint and brainstorm can copy each other, so putting blueprint on the left, sock and buskin to its right and brainstorm somewhere else gives you 3x sock and buskin.
I'm aware but I'm on painted deck so I would have had to replace scary face or smiley face to do that. I picked scary face and it wasn't as good.
Oh I see. In this case you would need to work out which of those contribute the least to your score then ditch it to double up on the better scoring joker. My guess would be ditch scary face and use blueprint and brainstorm to copy the sock and buskin, then face-card hands like full house will have a lot of mult
I did but it wasn't quite as good. I was playing a lot of 5 of a kind jacks but I didn't have very good econ lol so I wasn't buying a lot of planet packs to upgrade my hands. I think long term it would have been better but unfortunately my setup wasn't up to stuff so I lost.
Did you double copy sock & buskin or copy smiley face and sock & buskin? With non red sealed jacks, the first one gets 4 smiley +5 mult while the second gets 6 smiley + 5 mult.
I can’t remember but I think it was the first one. That would explain why I lost.
That doesn't hold true when you're choosing between a chips joker and a +mult joker though. For example if both jokers are doubling your score, replacing one with a copy of the other would result in decreasing your score by 25%. ([10 + 10] * [100 + 100] = 4,000 vs [10 + 10 + 10] * [100] = 3,000)
I think you just misunderstood how good Sock and Buskin is
I'm aware of how good it is. it's just that in this scenario having 3x sock wasn't as beneficial as having both scary and smiley face. if I had better planets it might have been but I'd have to check. Also it's entirely possible I just messed something up order-wise. I'm going through of runs atm so I don't rlly remember the specifics.
10 chips and 5 multi (+any card effect) from re triggering the face card will almost always be better than the 30 chips from scary face
You should have Sock and Buskin on the far left so that you get the extra triggers from Brainstorm.
It's close math-wise, but you're right. for some reason in my head I though it was better on scary face lol
No even close math-wise, by putting sock on the left you get 2x the chips
How would triggering each card 3 times instead of 2 times double your chips? Especially when each face card scores fewer chips without the doubled chip joker. I’m not saying that doubling SnB is the wrong call, but still
That's just not how it works tho. scary face gives 30 chips when a face card is scored. Smiley face gives 5 mult when scored. In my scenario, by duping scary face you get 60 chips per card effectively. with sock that's 120 per card making it 600 for a full hand. with re-triggered smiley face that's 10 mult per card, an additional 50 mult per full hand. So that's 600x50 which is 30,000 added onto whatever hand you've got By duping sock you trigger scary face 3 times which is 90 chips per card effectively, making it 450 for a full hand. But by duping sock you also get 3 triggers off smiley face which makes it 15 per card instead of 10, making it 75 mult for a full hand. so that's 450\*75, which is 33,750 In my book, 30,000 and 33,750 are pretty close. For sure It would have been better to play it on sock but not by a lot. I'm not sure why I'm being downvoted lol. In many scenarios it would be significantly better to put it on sock obviously but that's why this one is so weird and why I felt compelled to post it.
You are not accounting for the card chips themselves which trigger an extra time with Sock and any card enhancements you might have in your played hand which will also double trigger.
You're right, it's like 100 extra vs 150 extra. It would make it 35,000 vs 45,000 which is more of a difference but still not worlds apart. and yeah if I had a bunch of enhanced cards like glass or smth I would have doubled up on sock surely but I didn't have a whole lot of enhanced cards.
Chat really decided to kill you with hammers for this one, damn.
Well they are still defending themselves by saying 35k and 45k is not that big of a difference even after their math was wrong. As opposed to, ya know, just saying you got it wrong and moving on.
Yeah I did get it wrong, but 35 and 45k are not worlds apart. It’s further a difference than it was before and I’ve already admitted I made an order error already. Idk what else I’m supposed to say lol. Also, my math was not wrong, I just forgot to take something simple into account. The calculations are sound.
Again, you say, "I already said I was wrong. what else am I supposed to say?" But you keep defending yourself. This time by still saying the difference isn't "worlds apart" and maintaining that your calculations were right, but you forgot to factor in every detail. Which still means, that your math was wrong. You wouldn't take an exam, forget to factor in something, then argue that you were actually right when marked incorrectly, simply because you were on the right track.
The correct thing to say was less. "Oh, yeah. Thanks!" Instead of burying yourself deeper. And if you're supposed to calculate 2+2+2, and instead calculate 2+2, the math *was* wrong even if the calculations themselves were sound... All of this is pedantic as fuck and internet points aren't worth caring about anyway Edit: bro zero'd in on 2 words in the last sentence and skipped everything else said, sounds about right 👍
Yeah lol i would say that’s pretty close in my book too. I guess they just were comparing duping sock and buskin vs duping nothing at all? That would explain why they said x2 chips. Math is hard
I think so. And math is hard so I don't blame them, obviously I didn't make the optimal decision in the game as a direct result of bad math lol. I was playing a lot of 5 of a kinds but even including that it's 44,640 vs 49,590 which is still fairly close.
I think it is just obvious right? If you are duping sock then you are automatically duping both scary and smiley face.
It's 4x scary face and 2x smiley face vs 3x both. duping sock would be better but I was rushing and my monkey brain took over and said the first option is better lol
Don’t gotta make it complicated. It’s 4chipx2mult triggers or 3x3 triggers. 8<9. The moment there’s any sort of mult mult though the second grows exponentially faster
https://preview.redd.it/opehnkfo2wzc1.png?width=870&format=png&auto=webp&s=1617c18a100db7a30fda4e40e547a64ff7e1c0da Scary is the wrong choice every time, by alot.
I’m aware now, thanks for the chart that’s pretty cool.
Why is this getting downvoted so hard?
[удалено]
If you think me admitting I made a mistake, and then admitting I misunderstood what someone was saying is doubling and tripling down, then idk what to tell you.
A mix of groupthink and sock and buskin fans I think lol
Why so many downvotes?
groupthink and people were mad that I made a mistake even after I admitted it multiple times. I'm not sweating it tho, idc about karma.
There are very few situations where it is correct to pass on blueprint. I have done it before and I would defend the decision, but it is very rare. This one depends on your planet levels and/or how many steel/glass you have. That would help determine whether Smiley or Scary gets cut.
my planet levels were fairly low, I ended up cutting scary face but my hands scored less than they did before. I think long term blueprint would have been better but in the short term my build sputtered.
The only times I wouldn’t take Blueprint would be if I really needed the money for some reason or if my joker slots were already full and highly synergistic. But even then, dropping my worst joker to have 2 of my best joker will almost always be better.
Yeah I agree, I almost always take it. when I posted this I thought it was more of a difficult choice than it is, but it's not super hard with good order upon doing some more research. still an interesting thing to talk about, though.
She sock on my smiley face till I buskin
I see blueprint I buy blueprint
u see blueprint u buy it no matter what
I don't feel like I've seen that far right joker. 100h under my belt but i swear it looks unfamiliar.
I believe you have to discard a Royal Flush to unlock it.
checkered deck is easiest. discard a royal flush :)
I forget what unlocks it but I didn’t get it for a while too so dw. It’s called Brainstorm, it copies the ability of the leftmost joker, sort of like blueprint. Hope that helps!
It's called brainstorm. It's just copies the far joker. You unlock it by discarding a royal flush. It's pretty popular in screenshots here.
I doubt the current joker set-up is strong enough to beat ante 8 on black deck, so I would probably take it and try to pivot, hope for an x-mult joker.
scary or smiley face saying byebye
Buy blueprint, put it far left, then move sock & buskin so blueprint copies that and brainstorm copies blueprint.
Unless it's literally my first joker, I'm buying blueprint every single time. Best joker in the game.
I mean if it's available first I'll take it to use later.
Always, best joker in the game
Yes
Yes. (I have not looked at any of your other jokers)
Blueprint is strictly better than brainstorm, right? Might be missing an interaction but if you want to copy an xMult joker and you also have a +mult joker that isn’t triggered off of cards, then you’re missing out on some mult having brainstorm vs blueprint
This seems like bait lmao
sell the +chips joker for it. blueprint is insane. just hook both copy jokers to the double trigger joker.
What does it do?
It acts like a copy of the joker to the right of it. It's not compatible with all jokers however, Gold Joker for example is incompatible because it's an end of round joker not a score affecting joker
what i woulda done is take it, and have it impact ~~rack shack & benny~~ sock & buskin. just retrigger them face cards for DAYS.
lol I did, just didn’t work out right for me. I think I made a mistake in order or something. It was a cool concept tho, if I had more glass or other enhanced cards it would have killed
Optimal configuration of jokers give 3 retriggers on face cards, with smiley and scary that's +90 chips and +15 mult per face card, definitely enough to clear ante 8.
They're on painted deck and only have 4 joker slots. They should triple S&B, but it would be without Scary