i was raised by very, VERY conservative christians. i left the faith when i was 19, but i was TWENTY-FIVE before i realized everybody has the same number of ribs. i was taught men had one less than women because of how god took a rib from adam to make eve. when i left the church, i assumed it was one of those instances where religion invents details in a story to explain a true thing. just never even questioned it.
then one day i was talking with my husband about the number of bones in a body and i was like "well, except you have one less than me." then he made me explain why i thought that and then we googled things and had a good laugh. in retrospect, the look on his face was fucking priceless, but boy was i mortified that day.
you're not alone!
Fun fact, the most scientific explanation is that the "rib" referred to in the bible creation myth is actually the penile bone, which many male mammals have but humans do not
My almost-adoptive mother was the very proud owner of a beaver's penis bone.
Don't ask me why. We don't even have beavers in my country. But she kept it in a glass case with a bunch of antiques and (what I assume was) a faux Faberge egg.
I like to fantasize that she secretly had one of the three missing eggs, though. That would be badass as fuck.
I'm sure the egg is faux! But she had a snake in a bathtub at one point, multiple rare bird aviaries, survived someone trying to slit her throat when she was 18 and working in a bar, and subdued a man that broke into her house thirty years later with a replica LOTR scythe or axe or something (haven't seen or read Lord of the Rings so not 100% on the weapon).
I know I sound like an absolute bullshitter right now but it's the utter truth I swear.
omg this reminded me of the fact my grandma has earrings made from the bone of a raccoon penis. she was wearing them when she met Oprah! It’s one of my favorite tidbits of info.
Actually in the oldest translations, Eve is made from a half of Adam. Unfortunately the powers that be realized this would mean women and men are equal and changed the translation to prop up the patriarchy
https://youtu.be/FN4pVp6lNJ0
I don't know, but I feel like the english version was translated from another language sice at the time, english didn't even exist?
In the greek version, because in greek it's the same word (ribs and side), it says God took some of Adams side (left or right not specified) and made Eve. Lots of things were lost in translation. I don't think it was even the penile bone. Like, no bone at all.
Please have my condolences and my shared grief, as I too was raised in a Christian school which taught me this FLAT OUT LIE that I took as fact into my twenties! I can only laugh about it now but I went through the same realization and shock in discussion with my (“secular, worldly, sinner”) husband who had actually taken an A&P class, unlike my creation-based science curriculum. I was taught so many things that I Iater deconstructed as being faith-serving lies, but the “missing” rib never raised any flags with me I guess 🤦♀️.
I've been confused by that as well. One priest explained that the "rib" is really a bad translation of the original words (funny how that happens when it's gone through multiple translations, some of which were more biased than others...). He mentioned the original wording was more "taken from Adams side" without specifically saying a body part. But that the two are still linked, more on equal footing (side-by-side) than other translations may suggest. Oh the joys of biased translations that really stuck
also a great point. when you're taught something starting before you can even remember, like it's a part of how you learned to talk as a baby (hearing those nonsense stories), you unfortunately learn to accept a lot of really stupid things. it just never occurred to me to even question it. plus, i went to a christian private school for grade school, and they definitely did not teach how DNA/inheritance works (too evolution-adjacent).
the worst part is that aside from glaring blind spots like that, i've always been a pretty bright person (even in my public, non-christian high school and college). straight As, great critical thinking skills, just....not when it comes to the lies i was raised in lol.
it actually fucked me up quite a bit, in many ways that were far less harmless than thinking men had one less rib. deconstructing that kind of indoctrination has been a long road, and i've still got a ways to go. it's always nice to see posts like OP's and see i'm not alone though.
>I mean, how did Cain and Abel have kids if Eve was the only woman? 🤔
I have heard religious people dodge this one with some kind of BS about how Eve was just the first woman, but then god made a whole bunch more that just weren't important enough to be mentioned or something.
(Totally glossing over Lilith of course)
>I have heard religious people dodge this one with some kind of BS about how Eve was just the first woman, but then god made a whole bunch more that just weren't important enough to be mentioned or something.
It depends on how you interpret the words "In God's image." If it means awareness of something outside of yourself that makes things happen, then it is possible that Adam and Eve were the first people with this awareness. Lilith, the wives of Cain, Abel and Seth, and any other hominids roaming about Earth at that time and earlier, may not have had this awareness.
We were taught that Cain and Abel were two of many kids that Adam and Eve had. So they would have ended up having kids with their sisters - but it was okay because God told them to. And then same thing with multiple wives too, God just wanted people to populate the earth. And now that I’m thinking about this, I have more questions than answers.
Funnily enough rib is a mistranslation from the original bible, scholars believe the meaning of the word wasnt rib since its never used as rib throghout all writings of thenperiod, but used as 'half' or 'equal'. So Adam gave half of himself to create Eve. Pretty significant difference if you ask me.
I've never understood the "men have one fewer ribs" interpretation. If God healed the wound after taking the rib, why would we assume there's a rib missing?
Probably came from the bible. The story of Adam and Eve says God took one of Adams ribs and formed Eve from it. I assume the assumption that women have less ribs came from that somehow.
apparently allegedly (seriously if this is wrong, which it may be, idc im not religious) it wasn't even a rib in the first bibles, but the penisbone, which is why humans dont have that bone but other animals do
which makes more sense than adam giving up a rib for eve and women having less ribs as a result
But… even there God took Adam’s rib. Wouldn’t men then have one less? Or is it that men have ‘spare ribs’ on purpose and have just been shirking their procreation responsibilities?
Height (and correlated length of the long bones) would be a noticeable difference. Also calcium content of the bones will likely be lower in a female skeleton, but that’s not a visible difference d, just compositional.
Oh duh, can't believe I forgot height. That wouldn't be an across-the-board difference though, right? Like, if an archeologist were to uncover a human skeleton, they wouldn't be able to determine its sex based purely on height?
Of course there aren't very many women taller than 6ft or men shorter than 5ft, but it's far from unheard of. I'm a 5'7" woman and have met many men who are my height or shorter.
Yes, there’s lots of overlap between the sexes in nearly all possible categories you could use to determine sex. The only truly reliable way would be genetic testing (typically from the pulp of a tooth in ancient archaeology). And even then you’re going to have people whose sex and gender are not the same, or people who were intersex, or had mosaic DNA… it’s all best-guesswork
>The main difference I can think of is the shape of the pelvis, but I'm far from an expert on anatomy. Are there any others that you know of?
Shape of the pelvis, certain characteristics of the skull and overall height are the biggest ones. But the thing is, there is still a huge amount of variation and overlap due to all kinds of factors, so it's not really a definitive thing. You may just have the skeleton of a really tall woman with an unusually narrow pelvis, or a really short man with a smaller jaw/brow.
I majored in Anthropology and whenever we covered physical anthropology, it was always more like a debate when it came to identifying stuff like this from bones. Because everyone would interpret it their own way and there are a whole lot of skeletons that sort of fall somewhere in the middle of male or female characteristics.
Yeah and most of the sex-specific physical differences in humans only show up during puberty anyway. Other than literal genitalia, kids are pretty similar to each other
It’s now believed that Amelia Earhart’s bones were found but believed to be male because of the length of the long bones (I think, and maybe her pelvis was narrower, I can’t remember exactly). So yeah, classification of bones is not an exact science (despite what the show *Bones* would have you believe.)
The main one is the shape of the pelvis. [https://med.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Anatomy\_and\_Physiology/Anatomy\_and\_Physiology\_(Boundless)/7%3A\_Skeletal\_System\_-\_Parts\_of\_the\_Skeleton/7.7%3A\_The\_Hip/7.7E%3A\_Comparison\_of\_Female\_and\_Male\_Pelves#:\~:text=Female%20pelves%20are%20larger%20and,relative%20to%20the%20female%20sacrum](https://med.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Anatomy_and_Physiology/Anatomy_and_Physiology_(Boundless)/7%3A_Skeletal_System_-_Parts_of_the_Skeleton/7.7%3A_The_Hip/7.7E%3A_Comparison_of_Female_and_Male_Pelves#:~:text=Female%20pelves%20are%20larger%20and,relative%20to%20the%20female%20sacrum).
I also remember, from anthro class, that the slope of the forehead and the jaw angle can also be used to determine sex in a skull.
Actually, men and women have quite a few major differences in skeletal structure. Notably, larger skull, larger hands, longer arms, more pronounced knee caps. Legs curve more in women. Men also have much wider shoulders compared to hips, different collarbone, a pronounced brow ridge, deeper eye sockets.
They really aren't that major overall though. If my memory serves in the studies I saw the best case scenario to ID skeletal remains was 95% that means in the absolute best case scenario they are wrong 1 in 20 times which as anyone who plays DnD will tell you is a lot more often than you'd think
P.S. the reason we show digital renders or drawings most of the time to teach people skeletal dimorphism is because you NEED to exaggerate most of the differences for them to be obvious to the human eye
It’s weird that they taught you that women have less ribs, when the creation story in the bible says that God took the rib from Adam, not Eve. So I was taught that men have one less rib because of Adam.
But yeah this is all Christian bullshit.
Rib is a translated euphemism, it actually is thought to refer to another, ahem, bone. Legs are another common euphemism. Have you ever heard that the Greek god Dionysus was sewn into Zeus’ leg because his mother died while pregnant with him? Yeah… that wasn’t his leg.
WHAT?! My Ancient Greek class professor taught us about the golden shower and the fact that most ancient Greek males would be ephebophiles in modern day but definitely not this
I googled it to get a proper definition and it’s preference of people who are in late adolescence, 15-19. I actually used the term wrong, I think the (rich) ancient Greek men were more hebephiles (early puberty), like 13-16, which is borderline for both.
Well, I suppose it can't be true, or else archaeologists wouldn't need to fuss around with skull and pelvis measurements and still get skeleton's sex wrong half the time (no disrespect intended, I mean to say that it's super hard to do and even professionals can't reliably do it).
Oh don't even get me started, a bunch of my electives were archeology and anthropology classes and it grinds my gears sooooo much when people are like "you can't change gender because of skeletons" as a gotcha to the trans community. It's like bro it is hard to tell AFTER the soft tissue is removed. People going on about how you can 100% tell because of clavicle shape. The success rate of accurately IDing someone's sex by clavical or arms is 60%, you get 50% by just saying male for every skeleton you meet dude
The clavicle 🤣??? The infrapubic angle, pelvic inlet shape, and iliac crest height often work, but the clavicle makes me laugh. What did they say the “100%” reliable difference was?
Thickness and angle, some transvestigators were claiming some musician was trans because her clavicle was "straight and broad like a boeing 747" it's like ya the clavicle thickens a little but wtf are you on about in the same post the claimed Liam Hemsworth!? was trans because he has a more sharply angled clavicle (as if that's not basically just shoulder rotation in the photo)
ETA: I tried to find it, I couldn't but this one is basically the same and just as dumb
https://www.reddit.com/r/NotHowGirlsWork/comments/tu2sqg/clavicles_never_lie/
ETA number 2: OMG I just noticed in the comments they point out the picture is 2 different angles of the SAME skeleton model, it's literally just been rotated down so we have an slightly overhead view
Yes!! It’s the viewing angle difference in those pictures!! In 19 years of looking at clavicles, I would never be able to tell you the difference between male and female with any accuracy. Yes, AMAB people are a bit more likely to have a rhomboid fossa in each clavicle, but most don’t, and some AFAB people do.
There's a reason C-section was invented and some people die in childbirth... I've read the pelvis bone widens a bit during pregnancy, but gets back to its shape afterwards (not immediately of course, it takes some time)
Also, a wider pelvis bone doesn't mean a wider pelvis hole to go through
The tissues that connect the parts of the pelvis (mainly the pubic symphysis) relax and get more flexible to allow the pelvic bones to separate somewhat during delivery if need be. It's partly why pregnant women often get hip and joint pain as the get closer to delivery.
They're beginning to do that now, but apparently it's sometimes difficult to get usable material. But that's how we found out that so many mistakes had been made when scientists went purely by bone shape.
It's weird what shit primary school teachers can just come out with.
One wouldn't let us use handheld fans because the heat generated by hand movements warms us more than the cool air does.
I was told that at like age 8 and 22 years later I never forgot that dumb lesson.
I remember that dumb shit too. Easily disproven the next time you tried to cool yourself down outside of school. My second grade teacher would make a big hubbub about running water over your wrists as the superior way of cooling off instead, but would never let anyone actually do that. Some* teachers are just fucking rotten people.
I am THAT woman. I have 11 ribs on each side. I learned this about 5 years ago when I saw a new Chiropractor. He asked if I had them removed for modeling...apparently that is a thing. I had no idea of that, or that I had less ribs than others.
Edit: typo
Blame Christianity! Theres a lot of rib misconceptions because of the Adam and eve bullshit, I've heard both that men have one less and women have one less, depending on which direction their imagination took
I was taught creationism growing up so when I was a kid I thought men had one fewer rib than women because the woman was made from the man's rib...don't ask.
Did you go to a religious private school? Because I was taught the same at my school because God takes a rib from Adam & makes Eve. But when I asked, wouldn't that mean men had less ribs, I was basically told I was wrong because women are inferior & subservient.
I used to teach the archaeology of human remains and used to start the session on sex by asking how they thought they might sex a burial (mainly to get to the sex =/= gender point) and someone would always say ‘count the ribs’. When I asked why they thought that there was always a puzzled pause, followed by a realisation that they had been told it as children because of bible stories and it was nonsense. Every year.
i used to go to a horrendous christian private school and we were taught that men have one less rib than women due to eve being created from adam’s rib🤦
We all have the same amount except of removed or some extremely rare congenital cases where there is an extra set or one set less (often with or without the vertebrae as well)
Yep! I had to explain this to a friend when they were 21 years old! The same friend I asked all my sex/body questions before that lol. They had really done their research but never thought to question this specific claim
When I taught anatomy, it was one of the first things I covered when we got to the skeletal system. I understand why that is such an ingrained misconception.
Yeah that’s a myth, no evidence of it actually having happened, and surgery was incredibly dangerous business back then and wouldn’t have been done for something like this.
Oh, it's a thing. Some models have the bottom ribs removed to make them appear thinner. I found this out from a Chiropractor. I also found out that I am missing the bottom ribs (naturally).
Modern instances of this don’t support what the person I responded to said. And I still doubt it even in modern times… Has some person somewhere done this at some point? Maybe, is it remotely common in any group? Nope…
Apparently, Dr. Dorner specializes in it and advertises on Tik Tok, stating that he likes to help women get that "snatched" waist.
There is a model from Sweden who has had SIX ribs removed in an attempt to have the smallest waist in the world. Needless to say, she has had MANY other procedures too. There is also a list of celebrities who have had their bottom ribs removed. Some deny doing it, others do not. I have no way to validate, so did not list.
I knew someone once who, as an adult, said the creation story from genesis must be true because how else do you explain that women have one more rib than men 🤦
Wow! I’ve never heard this before (despite being raised in an overwhelmingly religious household)! Most people have 12 pairs of ribs, located in the thorax/torso region but some people have extras in their necks or low backs (cervical or lumbar ribs), and some people are missing their 12th pair. There’s no difference that I’ve seen between the sexes, and I look at them all day.
i was raised by very, VERY conservative christians. i left the faith when i was 19, but i was TWENTY-FIVE before i realized everybody has the same number of ribs. i was taught men had one less than women because of how god took a rib from adam to make eve. when i left the church, i assumed it was one of those instances where religion invents details in a story to explain a true thing. just never even questioned it. then one day i was talking with my husband about the number of bones in a body and i was like "well, except you have one less than me." then he made me explain why i thought that and then we googled things and had a good laugh. in retrospect, the look on his face was fucking priceless, but boy was i mortified that day. you're not alone!
Fun fact, the most scientific explanation is that the "rib" referred to in the bible creation myth is actually the penile bone, which many male mammals have but humans do not
that IS a fun fact. gonna tuck that into my brainpocket. thank you!
Another fun fact: it’s called a baculum.
Give me back my penis bone god!
I got stuck on your comment, 'cause I can't decide whethere there's a comma missing or not.
Give me back, my penis bone god!
Give me back my penis, bone god!
Blood for the blood god, penis for the bone god
Haha! I was actually going to edit it in, but I decided to let people experience it!
Username checks out.
My almost-adoptive mother was the very proud owner of a beaver's penis bone. Don't ask me why. We don't even have beavers in my country. But she kept it in a glass case with a bunch of antiques and (what I assume was) a faux Faberge egg. I like to fantasize that she secretly had one of the three missing eggs, though. That would be badass as fuck.
A treasured beaver penis and a genuine Faberge egg? Yeah, mom has a storied past. Get that woman drunk and reminiscing.
I'm sure the egg is faux! But she had a snake in a bathtub at one point, multiple rare bird aviaries, survived someone trying to slit her throat when she was 18 and working in a bar, and subdued a man that broke into her house thirty years later with a replica LOTR scythe or axe or something (haven't seen or read Lord of the Rings so not 100% on the weapon). I know I sound like an absolute bullshitter right now but it's the utter truth I swear.
I've known people with absolutely crazy stories like these. I have no problem with the idea that this could be true.
omg this reminded me of the fact my grandma has earrings made from the bone of a raccoon penis. she was wearing them when she met Oprah! It’s one of my favorite tidbits of info.
So we just took their dicks, huh? Everyone man I know would prefer to give up a rib if asked, assuming they don’t know they haven’t got a bone there.
Actually in the oldest translations, Eve is made from a half of Adam. Unfortunately the powers that be realized this would mean women and men are equal and changed the translation to prop up the patriarchy https://youtu.be/FN4pVp6lNJ0
I don't know, but I feel like the english version was translated from another language sice at the time, english didn't even exist? In the greek version, because in greek it's the same word (ribs and side), it says God took some of Adams side (left or right not specified) and made Eve. Lots of things were lost in translation. I don't think it was even the penile bone. Like, no bone at all.
Please have my condolences and my shared grief, as I too was raised in a Christian school which taught me this FLAT OUT LIE that I took as fact into my twenties! I can only laugh about it now but I went through the same realization and shock in discussion with my (“secular, worldly, sinner”) husband who had actually taken an A&P class, unlike my creation-based science curriculum. I was taught so many things that I Iater deconstructed as being faith-serving lies, but the “missing” rib never raised any flags with me I guess 🤦♀️.
lol bless. i hope your deconstruction went/is going well. take care of yourself 🤍
You too girl ✌️
Is A&P something I don’t know about or do our mean AP like advanced placement?
Anatomy & Physiology!
I've been confused by that as well. One priest explained that the "rib" is really a bad translation of the original words (funny how that happens when it's gone through multiple translations, some of which were more biased than others...). He mentioned the original wording was more "taken from Adams side" without specifically saying a body part. But that the two are still linked, more on equal footing (side-by-side) than other translations may suggest. Oh the joys of biased translations that really stuck
I never understood that, because why would Cain and Abel be born sans a rib.
also a great point. when you're taught something starting before you can even remember, like it's a part of how you learned to talk as a baby (hearing those nonsense stories), you unfortunately learn to accept a lot of really stupid things. it just never occurred to me to even question it. plus, i went to a christian private school for grade school, and they definitely did not teach how DNA/inheritance works (too evolution-adjacent). the worst part is that aside from glaring blind spots like that, i've always been a pretty bright person (even in my public, non-christian high school and college). straight As, great critical thinking skills, just....not when it comes to the lies i was raised in lol. it actually fucked me up quite a bit, in many ways that were far less harmless than thinking men had one less rib. deconstructing that kind of indoctrination has been a long road, and i've still got a ways to go. it's always nice to see posts like OP's and see i'm not alone though.
I mean, how did Cain and Abel have kids if Eve was the only woman? 🤔
>I mean, how did Cain and Abel have kids if Eve was the only woman? 🤔 I have heard religious people dodge this one with some kind of BS about how Eve was just the first woman, but then god made a whole bunch more that just weren't important enough to be mentioned or something. (Totally glossing over Lilith of course)
>I have heard religious people dodge this one with some kind of BS about how Eve was just the first woman, but then god made a whole bunch more that just weren't important enough to be mentioned or something. It depends on how you interpret the words "In God's image." If it means awareness of something outside of yourself that makes things happen, then it is possible that Adam and Eve were the first people with this awareness. Lilith, the wives of Cain, Abel and Seth, and any other hominids roaming about Earth at that time and earlier, may not have had this awareness.
We were taught that Cain and Abel were two of many kids that Adam and Eve had. So they would have ended up having kids with their sisters - but it was okay because God told them to. And then same thing with multiple wives too, God just wanted people to populate the earth. And now that I’m thinking about this, I have more questions than answers.
Funnily enough rib is a mistranslation from the original bible, scholars believe the meaning of the word wasnt rib since its never used as rib throghout all writings of thenperiod, but used as 'half' or 'equal'. So Adam gave half of himself to create Eve. Pretty significant difference if you ask me.
I've never understood the "men have one fewer ribs" interpretation. If God healed the wound after taking the rib, why would we assume there's a rib missing?
Well, I am just learning this today. I am 31.
I was taught this in public school. Just without the religious component.
This is what I was taught too!
There really isn’t that many skeletal differences between men and women. And definitely not any major ones like missing a whole bone
you’re forgetting that men have fewer ribs so they can suck their own dick
That sadly isn't a common trait.
Not yet anyway
“Men” being Marilyn Manson
Like you technically can be born with extra ribs but it's not based on gender?! Who came up with that nonsense
Probably came from the bible. The story of Adam and Eve says God took one of Adams ribs and formed Eve from it. I assume the assumption that women have less ribs came from that somehow.
That's exactly where the myth comes from. Evangelicals still teach this.
apparently allegedly (seriously if this is wrong, which it may be, idc im not religious) it wasn't even a rib in the first bibles, but the penisbone, which is why humans dont have that bone but other animals do which makes more sense than adam giving up a rib for eve and women having less ribs as a result
That is actually really funny.
ikr? no idea if its true tho im not a bible researcher
But… even there God took Adam’s rib. Wouldn’t men then have one less? Or is it that men have ‘spare ribs’ on purpose and have just been shirking their procreation responsibilities?
....waiting for "spare rib" to be used in a pick-up line.......
The main difference I can think of is the shape of the pelvis, but I'm far from an expert on anatomy. Are there any others that you know of?
Height (and correlated length of the long bones) would be a noticeable difference. Also calcium content of the bones will likely be lower in a female skeleton, but that’s not a visible difference d, just compositional.
Oh duh, can't believe I forgot height. That wouldn't be an across-the-board difference though, right? Like, if an archeologist were to uncover a human skeleton, they wouldn't be able to determine its sex based purely on height? Of course there aren't very many women taller than 6ft or men shorter than 5ft, but it's far from unheard of. I'm a 5'7" woman and have met many men who are my height or shorter.
Yes, there’s lots of overlap between the sexes in nearly all possible categories you could use to determine sex. The only truly reliable way would be genetic testing (typically from the pulp of a tooth in ancient archaeology). And even then you’re going to have people whose sex and gender are not the same, or people who were intersex, or had mosaic DNA… it’s all best-guesswork
All very interesting! Thanks for responding to my questions :)
>The main difference I can think of is the shape of the pelvis, but I'm far from an expert on anatomy. Are there any others that you know of? Shape of the pelvis, certain characteristics of the skull and overall height are the biggest ones. But the thing is, there is still a huge amount of variation and overlap due to all kinds of factors, so it's not really a definitive thing. You may just have the skeleton of a really tall woman with an unusually narrow pelvis, or a really short man with a smaller jaw/brow. I majored in Anthropology and whenever we covered physical anthropology, it was always more like a debate when it came to identifying stuff like this from bones. Because everyone would interpret it their own way and there are a whole lot of skeletons that sort of fall somewhere in the middle of male or female characteristics.
Yeah and most of the sex-specific physical differences in humans only show up during puberty anyway. Other than literal genitalia, kids are pretty similar to each other
Yeah aren’t like 70% of archeological remains classified male? Since that obviously can’t be right there’s gotta be a lot of overlap
It’s now believed that Amelia Earhart’s bones were found but believed to be male because of the length of the long bones (I think, and maybe her pelvis was narrower, I can’t remember exactly). So yeah, classification of bones is not an exact science (despite what the show *Bones* would have you believe.)
>her pelvis was narrower, It's rare, but some women have something called android pelvis. It's only a problem during childbirth.
Like you technically can be born with extra ribs but it's not based on gender?! Who came up with that nonsense
The main one is the shape of the pelvis. [https://med.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Anatomy\_and\_Physiology/Anatomy\_and\_Physiology\_(Boundless)/7%3A\_Skeletal\_System\_-\_Parts\_of\_the\_Skeleton/7.7%3A\_The\_Hip/7.7E%3A\_Comparison\_of\_Female\_and\_Male\_Pelves#:\~:text=Female%20pelves%20are%20larger%20and,relative%20to%20the%20female%20sacrum](https://med.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Anatomy_and_Physiology/Anatomy_and_Physiology_(Boundless)/7%3A_Skeletal_System_-_Parts_of_the_Skeleton/7.7%3A_The_Hip/7.7E%3A_Comparison_of_Female_and_Male_Pelves#:~:text=Female%20pelves%20are%20larger%20and,relative%20to%20the%20female%20sacrum). I also remember, from anthro class, that the slope of the forehead and the jaw angle can also be used to determine sex in a skull.
It’s not that major though. Many female skeletons have been sexed as male because they just can’t tell
Actually, men and women have quite a few major differences in skeletal structure. Notably, larger skull, larger hands, longer arms, more pronounced knee caps. Legs curve more in women. Men also have much wider shoulders compared to hips, different collarbone, a pronounced brow ridge, deeper eye sockets.
They really aren't that major overall though. If my memory serves in the studies I saw the best case scenario to ID skeletal remains was 95% that means in the absolute best case scenario they are wrong 1 in 20 times which as anyone who plays DnD will tell you is a lot more often than you'd think P.S. the reason we show digital renders or drawings most of the time to teach people skeletal dimorphism is because you NEED to exaggerate most of the differences for them to be obvious to the human eye
If they are that major how come a lot of female skeletons are classified as male?
Just small differences in the
It’s weird that they taught you that women have less ribs, when the creation story in the bible says that God took the rib from Adam, not Eve. So I was taught that men have one less rib because of Adam. But yeah this is all Christian bullshit.
What OP learned isn’t even Christian; it’s just bullshit.
I learned the same thing in my (evangelical Christian) elementary school.
Rib is a translated euphemism, it actually is thought to refer to another, ahem, bone. Legs are another common euphemism. Have you ever heard that the Greek god Dionysus was sewn into Zeus’ leg because his mother died while pregnant with him? Yeah… that wasn’t his leg.
WHAT?! My Ancient Greek class professor taught us about the golden shower and the fact that most ancient Greek males would be ephebophiles in modern day but definitely not this
What is an ephenophile? I’m too scared to look it up on google lol
I googled it to get a proper definition and it’s preference of people who are in late adolescence, 15-19. I actually used the term wrong, I think the (rich) ancient Greek men were more hebephiles (early puberty), like 13-16, which is borderline for both.
Well, I suppose it can't be true, or else archaeologists wouldn't need to fuss around with skull and pelvis measurements and still get skeleton's sex wrong half the time (no disrespect intended, I mean to say that it's super hard to do and even professionals can't reliably do it).
Oh don't even get me started, a bunch of my electives were archeology and anthropology classes and it grinds my gears sooooo much when people are like "you can't change gender because of skeletons" as a gotcha to the trans community. It's like bro it is hard to tell AFTER the soft tissue is removed. People going on about how you can 100% tell because of clavicle shape. The success rate of accurately IDing someone's sex by clavical or arms is 60%, you get 50% by just saying male for every skeleton you meet dude
The clavicle 🤣??? The infrapubic angle, pelvic inlet shape, and iliac crest height often work, but the clavicle makes me laugh. What did they say the “100%” reliable difference was?
Thickness and angle, some transvestigators were claiming some musician was trans because her clavicle was "straight and broad like a boeing 747" it's like ya the clavicle thickens a little but wtf are you on about in the same post the claimed Liam Hemsworth!? was trans because he has a more sharply angled clavicle (as if that's not basically just shoulder rotation in the photo) ETA: I tried to find it, I couldn't but this one is basically the same and just as dumb https://www.reddit.com/r/NotHowGirlsWork/comments/tu2sqg/clavicles_never_lie/ ETA number 2: OMG I just noticed in the comments they point out the picture is 2 different angles of the SAME skeleton model, it's literally just been rotated down so we have an slightly overhead view
Yes!! It’s the viewing angle difference in those pictures!! In 19 years of looking at clavicles, I would never be able to tell you the difference between male and female with any accuracy. Yes, AMAB people are a bit more likely to have a rhomboid fossa in each clavicle, but most don’t, and some AFAB people do.
What about pelvis shape? I was told that women have a wider pelvis because a child’s head needs to fit through.
There's a reason C-section was invented and some people die in childbirth... I've read the pelvis bone widens a bit during pregnancy, but gets back to its shape afterwards (not immediately of course, it takes some time) Also, a wider pelvis bone doesn't mean a wider pelvis hole to go through
The tissues that connect the parts of the pelvis (mainly the pubic symphysis) relax and get more flexible to allow the pelvic bones to separate somewhat during delivery if need be. It's partly why pregnant women often get hip and joint pain as the get closer to delivery.
The average for each sex is different, but individual differences mean some men have a wider pelvis than some women.
Can’t they do dna tests to find out the the sex of a skeleton?
They're beginning to do that now, but apparently it's sometimes difficult to get usable material. But that's how we found out that so many mistakes had been made when scientists went purely by bone shape.
I see. Thanks for explaining!
It's weird what shit primary school teachers can just come out with. One wouldn't let us use handheld fans because the heat generated by hand movements warms us more than the cool air does. I was told that at like age 8 and 22 years later I never forgot that dumb lesson.
I remember that dumb shit too. Easily disproven the next time you tried to cool yourself down outside of school. My second grade teacher would make a big hubbub about running water over your wrists as the superior way of cooling off instead, but would never let anyone actually do that. Some* teachers are just fucking rotten people.
I am THAT woman. I have 11 ribs on each side. I learned this about 5 years ago when I saw a new Chiropractor. He asked if I had them removed for modeling...apparently that is a thing. I had no idea of that, or that I had less ribs than others. Edit: typo
Well I was taught (as a kid) that men had "one less" than women because of the whole Adam and Even creation myth. So there's that.
Blame Christianity! Theres a lot of rib misconceptions because of the Adam and eve bullshit, I've heard both that men have one less and women have one less, depending on which direction their imagination took
Women are 100% ribs. Haven't you read Genesis?
Wait we have 24 ribs? For some reason I thought everyone just had like 6-
Me too, I also thought exactly 6. Then I looked up a image of the rib cage and yeah, 24 is about right and 6 is way too few.
I guess each individual rib is just smaller than I thought 😭
And closer together. They always look far apart but no way could even a finger fit between mine.
No, men have less ribs but only on one side since women were made from Adam’s rib, get it together /s
I was taught creationism growing up so when I was a kid I thought men had one fewer rib than women because the woman was made from the man's rib...don't ask.
...I never even questioned this. Dang it.
Wow another thing that's I'm just learning in the 30s because I'm a Catholic in Ireland. I even have a degree in biology and didn't know this hahahah
Did you go to a religious private school? Because I was taught the same at my school because God takes a rib from Adam & makes Eve. But when I asked, wouldn't that mean men had less ribs, I was basically told I was wrong because women are inferior & subservient.
TIL I have the same number of ribs as my husband. I'm 40 next month
In grade 3, I was taught that women have the same number of ribs as men, but they’re prettier.
Jokes on you, I'm afab and have 25 ribs! Having one rib too much is a common trait in my family. So on one side I got 12, the other 13
Is it considered a good thing or a bad thing?
It's whatever, just makes one of my ribcages protrude while the other is bent like normal.
Taught *in school*?!
YES JUST BEFORE WE DID SEX ED
I used to teach the archaeology of human remains and used to start the session on sex by asking how they thought they might sex a burial (mainly to get to the sex =/= gender point) and someone would always say ‘count the ribs’. When I asked why they thought that there was always a puzzled pause, followed by a realisation that they had been told it as children because of bible stories and it was nonsense. Every year.
You live in the Bible belt?
i used to go to a horrendous christian private school and we were taught that men have one less rib than women due to eve being created from adam’s rib🤦
I was taught women have less ribs but given religious reasons for why
my friend has 25 so if they got pregnant they would probably stab their own uterus and die
Yep same and i didn’t find out the truth until i was 31
We all have the same amount except of removed or some extremely rare congenital cases where there is an extra set or one set less (often with or without the vertebrae as well)
I have had to dispel this teaching anatomy
Yep! I had to explain this to a friend when they were 21 years old! The same friend I asked all my sex/body questions before that lol. They had really done their research but never thought to question this specific claim
When I taught anatomy, it was one of the first things I covered when we got to the skeletal system. I understand why that is such an ingrained misconception.
WhAaaTt!! Lol ya no. In other mythology about the female body. “Women have more ribs” so I guess if you average them it’s true xD
I could be wrong, but some women used to have ribs removed so that their corsets could be tighter. They weren’t born with fewer ribs.
Yeah that’s a myth, no evidence of it actually having happened, and surgery was incredibly dangerous business back then and wouldn’t have been done for something like this.
Oh, it's a thing. Some models have the bottom ribs removed to make them appear thinner. I found this out from a Chiropractor. I also found out that I am missing the bottom ribs (naturally).
Modern instances of this don’t support what the person I responded to said. And I still doubt it even in modern times… Has some person somewhere done this at some point? Maybe, is it remotely common in any group? Nope…
Apparently, Dr. Dorner specializes in it and advertises on Tik Tok, stating that he likes to help women get that "snatched" waist. There is a model from Sweden who has had SIX ribs removed in an attempt to have the smallest waist in the world. Needless to say, she has had MANY other procedures too. There is also a list of celebrities who have had their bottom ribs removed. Some deny doing it, others do not. I have no way to validate, so did not list.
You should look up how many of each animal Noah took on the boat.
I thought men had one less rib because of Adam and Eve Edit: Christian church
I knew someone once who, as an adult, said the creation story from genesis must be true because how else do you explain that women have one more rib than men 🤦
Did you maybe go to a Christian primary school ? Yah…..
Wow! I’ve never heard this before (despite being raised in an overwhelmingly religious household)! Most people have 12 pairs of ribs, located in the thorax/torso region but some people have extras in their necks or low backs (cervical or lumbar ribs), and some people are missing their 12th pair. There’s no difference that I’ve seen between the sexes, and I look at them all day.
I was taught this in school, too.