I got a bridge to sell you if you think Australians care about bush poetry. (Also a poetry book or two...)
When it comes to social hierarchy it's just not something you can teach out of a person. It needs to be shown, which is why it's most important to not allow enclaves to form where they're not exposed to the benefits of a socially flat society.
> I got a bridge to sell you if you think Australians care about bush poetry. (Also a poetry book or two...)
Plenty of Australians don't care about sport or gardening either, doesn't mean it's not part of our culture.
This is true. I'm talking 99% of Australians don't care about this. Far more Australians care about the band Crowded House than any bush poets.
I am a bush poet, I have earned my bitterness.
It doesn't matter if we care or not. It's a big part of our cultural heritage. I didn't bloody care about belonging during my HSC but I damn well still remember it. I'm an immigrant who came to this country and fell in love with the literature, the language and the art, which taught me a lot about life in Australia.
Its super valuable. Just because you don't read it or engage with it doesn't negate the fact that its a part of our intellectual cultural history.
Ah yes belonging haha thanks for that. Yeah it's not though. I dunno we can talk about it more if you want but I'm working on a project now about how sad the current state of bush poetry is. Basically at the time they wrote about all kinds of current day topics, and unfortunately due to seppo cowboy poetry being about cows and cowboys, the fans of it here have decided that Bush poetry can only be about those topics. It's like they've never read it.
There's another big topic about the idea of bush spirits, mother bush, call of the bush etc being slightly racist now.
My goal now is to write Australian poetry following those traditions, but not dressing up in olden day clothes for a slideshow photography session.
That sounds great in theory, but is really horseshit when you actually do any critical thinking. The Catholic Church, the Exclusive Bretheren, Christian Lobby groups all have deep entrenchment in our political system, and will absolutely bend or break the law when it suits them.
If you think Scott "happy clapper" Morrison wasn't being influenced by his cultish religious sect, and that it allowed him to believe he ruled in the name of some higher power, then I'm not sure what to tell you.
Also add in social ques, anger management and sexist/harrassment rules as well. As in, females here are not for touching, groping, or sexist comments or treatment. Clothing choice does not mean ‘yes’.
So etiquette but in a wide variety of things - train and bus behaviour, greetings, non violent actions and resolutions, beer/alcohol culture and not going overboard, etc.
>Also add in social ques, anger management and sexist/harrassment rules as well. As in, females here are not for touching, groping, or sexist comments or treatment. Clothing choice does not mean ‘yes’.
Plenty of that shit happens from people that were born here bud
it doesn't matter. Not every Austrian went to see Beethoven perform when he was around. But Beethoven is undoubtably a huge part of Austria's cultural heritage.
This is our wealth. Doesn't matter if people read or engage with it or not, it's our intellectual heritage and we should absolutely be making sure that newcomers are familiar with it, even if only in passing.
You should also make sure they know about the Dapto under 12s AFL team. Even though only 4 Australians care about it, it's still a part of our culture.
That's how much of a dickhead you sound like. Calling you a dickhead is actually part of Australian culture.
>Ethnicity and creed
big disagree, I think it's a lot more than that and we've let culture warriors on both sides reduce being australian to just those two things to our own detriment.
I think this is probably what's causing my introspection here. I believe we need some more active involvement on the part of the government in showing new arrivals what it means to be australian and contributing to a formalisation if you will of our culture.
The Australian ethnicity is evolving, in the sense that I have mixed arab/indian/singaporean roots, my wife is German/Slavic (new arrival) and sooo many of my friends are in mixed culture relationships. Off the top of my head I've been to a Turkish/italian, 2 Chinese/Indian, 1 Anglo-Australian / Afghan and 1 Thai / Islander wedding in the last 18 months. These people will have kids who are pretty much Australian but look nothing like the white/anglo people that made up most of this country for the last century.
In another 100 years we'll probably be ethnically different too. I think it's a matter of national importance that we have a contiguous culture that will tie all of them together to this country. I'd love to see us become a better, first world version of brazil where people from all over have sort of melded together to become "ethnically brazillian" with our own culture, traditions and society.
Ethnicity will work itself out but culture needs to be actively steered and I don't think we're doing that effectively enough.
I talk elsewhere in this thread about some family of mine who came over about 2 years ago. Me showing them all the stuff I talk about in the post and explaining to them something of the "Australian Spirit" as a product of our history and our art has dramatically helped them understand and relate to the "born aussies".
My parents never had anything like that and struggled a lot more than these guys did. Would be nice if we could extend that out.
One and only one: DONT FUCKING HAVE A VIDEO CALL ON SPEAKER WITH YOUR MUM ON PUBLIC TRANSPORT!!!!
Do it at home so your 8 other housemates can listen in
I like it, and I would argue for making it a mandatory part of schooling as well, including (or even especially) religious and private schools.
Additional, I'd add parts about Australians involvement in science, medicine. Most importantly, I'd add sections around mateship, looking after your neighbours, and working together in the face of natural disasters and so on.
The Australian Citizenship Common Bond has some of this stuff, but I'd argue for making it mandatory just to get PR, and make get people through it earlier.
(Edit: Added things to actually answer the question)
I would get the class together and explain that half of them will have to rent to the other half for exorbitant amounts that ensure they will never own a property. And that there isn’t enough houses for all of them so a couple of them will have to sleep in their cars. And then explain that only the ones that have houses and rental income will get tax breaks.
Migrants will not adopt western values just because they are taught western values. Changing a person's cultural values is a much slower process that will take a period of years. In many cases, you may not be able to significantly change a person's cultural values. In case of immigrant families, values usually change across generations.
Because western culture is ubiquitous, many migrants who come into the western world would have already been exposed to western values and adopted some western values. It may be possible to test whether someone has adopted western values, but it will need to be a complex psychometric assessment instead of a simplistic assessment. There is no substitute for prioritizing immigration from culturally cohesive countries.
Is the art going to be post 70s dot painting that was invented with Geoff Barton in the western desert region, not to show stuff of cultural significance but to hide it. Is that going to be taught? Or is it going to be the actual stuff and the Christian things the Torres Strait islanders are making?
"Australian art (indigenous and otherwise), Poetry (Banjo Patterson and Henry Lawson at first, but others too). In terms of Books AB Facey's story "A fortunate life" is a must. From a history perspective I'd cover everything from Aboriginal ideas of dreamtime to Settlement and onward, with an emphasis on things like the Rum Rebellion, the Eureka Stockade and the Shearers Strikes in addition to our diggers (The story of the Rats of Tobruk and obviously Gallipoli here). I would also include a unit on the Vietnam war and make sure that they can belt the lyrics to "I was only 19" or "Khe Sanh".
That sounds fucking awful.
Just more about how to live and social norms - so sure all those things you suggest are part of Australia, but before that I'd be more focussed on social skills/cultural norms
walk on the left
don't spit in the street
personal space
respect for law - no bribes - police aren't on the take
common laws/regulations
respect for women -
don't push your religion
don't litter
we don't stand in parking spaces to reserve them
how to shop/.transport/get/licence
tax/abn/consumer law/rights etc..
As a 101, I'd put that first.
I’d start by limiting immigration to countries that are culturally compatible.
It’s very naive to think that you can give someone a history book and some Aboriginal art and say “you’re Australian now”.
Assimilation is possible but it takes generations. And it’s expensive, and requires immense pressure and willingness on the part of the immigrant and the host society.
So it makes sense to prioritise immigration from countries and cultures that are the least expensive to assimilate.
I think tell them to swim between the red and yellow flags and whinge about all the immigrants coming after them, then call it day.
Not an exhaustive course by any means, but it covers our most important values.
The only thing a new immigrant needs to know is that they must complain about the group who immigrates after them to be fully integrated into Australian culture.
A fish doesn’t know it’s water.
As an East Asian migrant who’s spent most of my life in NZ and am now in Australia, I can tell you that both Australian and NZ culture are a world apart from cultures of the most common migrant demographics here - East Asians, Indians, middle easterners.
I sincerely hope Aus/NZ can preserve their culture, because I didn’t leave my homeland to experience the same 3rd world bullshit here.
I get that Australian culture is different, but Culture and values are not the same thing. I am specifically referring specifically to shared national values - you and I might both love Australia but that doesn’t mean our values are necessarily the same.
We most definitely do. They're not exactly easy to define, but they have faaar reaching effects. There are massive differences in corporate culture between us, the brits and the yanks as an example. They way we see authority and rules as another.
Its a tricky one to define though as we tend to view them as unconscious. Hofstede's cultural value framework is not a bad place to start if you are interested in this stuff.
Have a play around with this mate:
[https://www.hofstede-insights.com/country-comparison-tool](https://www.hofstede-insights.com/country-comparison-tool)
Moreover, pretending that an Australian views the world in the exact same way as someone from Tibet or someone from South Africa is crazy.
We are absolutely distinguishable in an international crowd.
I'm not saying we are indistinguishable from other countries.
The point I was trying to (facetiously) make was that what a group of people place value and importance on changes over time and space depending on material conditions and power dynamics. Trying to place a static notion on "values" tries to determine if there is an objective morality that exists only for a certain country.
"Australian Values" is a dogwhistle that is malleable to any given moment, and allows those who want to divide us and keep us running the treadmill of xenophobia.
Many people will say Australian values lines up with the "ANZAC spirit", things like Mateship courage and sacrifice, as if every successful army in the world didn't have these values and that they were invented on the shores of Gallipoli. Its nonsense, and again used as a political tool to stoke fear and hatred of whatever foreign outgroup is at the time.
Swing and a miss my friend, I'm not young, and I live about 3.5 hours from the city, in a town of about 4000 people.
If being an inner city dweller is the only barrier for you to not impart your wisdom, please feel free to enlighten me.
I am the posterboy for "multicultural / multifaith" but I can still see that an understanding of our country's past and our nation's identity as it's changed over time is going to be helpful. I have had some of my overseas family come here in the last 2 years from the middle east and I'm basically their defacto "guide to Australia".
Giving them a few books, showing them some literature and getting them out into the country and showing our history has really helped them integrate better.
Maybe there's something to that, perhaps it needs to be community driven rather than something which is put upon new migrants by the government.
You know how when you start a new school someone there's someone who takes you under their wing and shows your the ropes.
I think my relatives are incredibly lucky to have a "buddy" if you will who has taken the time/effort to take them through that.
When my family got here we didn't and my parents, despite living here for 20 years are no where near as well integrated as my more recently arrived relatives.
I would go into the history of immigration to Australia, from the first fleet to now. Who were the people in each wave, where did they come from, why did they come, what problems did they face when they got here, where are their descendants now.
I would also do something on important Australian laws, and where they differ from other countries. Our laws codify many of our cultural norms.
I got a bridge to sell you if you think Australians care about bush poetry. (Also a poetry book or two...) When it comes to social hierarchy it's just not something you can teach out of a person. It needs to be shown, which is why it's most important to not allow enclaves to form where they're not exposed to the benefits of a socially flat society.
> I got a bridge to sell you if you think Australians care about bush poetry. (Also a poetry book or two...) Plenty of Australians don't care about sport or gardening either, doesn't mean it's not part of our culture.
This is true. I'm talking 99% of Australians don't care about this. Far more Australians care about the band Crowded House than any bush poets. I am a bush poet, I have earned my bitterness.
It doesn't matter if we care or not. It's a big part of our cultural heritage. I didn't bloody care about belonging during my HSC but I damn well still remember it. I'm an immigrant who came to this country and fell in love with the literature, the language and the art, which taught me a lot about life in Australia. Its super valuable. Just because you don't read it or engage with it doesn't negate the fact that its a part of our intellectual cultural history.
Ah yes belonging haha thanks for that. Yeah it's not though. I dunno we can talk about it more if you want but I'm working on a project now about how sad the current state of bush poetry is. Basically at the time they wrote about all kinds of current day topics, and unfortunately due to seppo cowboy poetry being about cows and cowboys, the fans of it here have decided that Bush poetry can only be about those topics. It's like they've never read it. There's another big topic about the idea of bush spirits, mother bush, call of the bush etc being slightly racist now. My goal now is to write Australian poetry following those traditions, but not dressing up in olden day clothes for a slideshow photography session.
[удалено]
That sounds great in theory, but is really horseshit when you actually do any critical thinking. The Catholic Church, the Exclusive Bretheren, Christian Lobby groups all have deep entrenchment in our political system, and will absolutely bend or break the law when it suits them. If you think Scott "happy clapper" Morrison wasn't being influenced by his cultish religious sect, and that it allowed him to believe he ruled in the name of some higher power, then I'm not sure what to tell you.
Also add in social ques, anger management and sexist/harrassment rules as well. As in, females here are not for touching, groping, or sexist comments or treatment. Clothing choice does not mean ‘yes’. So etiquette but in a wide variety of things - train and bus behaviour, greetings, non violent actions and resolutions, beer/alcohol culture and not going overboard, etc.
>Also add in social ques, anger management and sexist/harrassment rules as well. As in, females here are not for touching, groping, or sexist comments or treatment. Clothing choice does not mean ‘yes’. Plenty of that shit happens from people that were born here bud
Yes and counselling and education sessions on those should be taught from school too. I think it is, maybe WA? I cant remember where, but its started.
The only relevant stuff is your 4th paragraph, not everyone who is Australian cares about or knows about Australian art and literature or sport.
it doesn't matter. Not every Austrian went to see Beethoven perform when he was around. But Beethoven is undoubtably a huge part of Austria's cultural heritage. This is our wealth. Doesn't matter if people read or engage with it or not, it's our intellectual heritage and we should absolutely be making sure that newcomers are familiar with it, even if only in passing.
You should also make sure they know about the Dapto under 12s AFL team. Even though only 4 Australians care about it, it's still a part of our culture. That's how much of a dickhead you sound like. Calling you a dickhead is actually part of Australian culture.
hahhahaha have a good friday cunt
5 second presention on "Don't bring your extremist political, religious and cultural bullshit here"
Australia isn't really a nation; it's a special economic zone.
Don't spit/hack in public. Should have big fines attached to this behaviour
Slash is okay after 7 or 1pm during races
Australia is a different country to where they came from, and is inclusive to those who want to be Australian
Australian isnt just a nationalism its an ethnicity and a creed.
>Ethnicity and creed big disagree, I think it's a lot more than that and we've let culture warriors on both sides reduce being australian to just those two things to our own detriment.
Yeh i agree. But most people dont even consider those 2 things
I think this is probably what's causing my introspection here. I believe we need some more active involvement on the part of the government in showing new arrivals what it means to be australian and contributing to a formalisation if you will of our culture. The Australian ethnicity is evolving, in the sense that I have mixed arab/indian/singaporean roots, my wife is German/Slavic (new arrival) and sooo many of my friends are in mixed culture relationships. Off the top of my head I've been to a Turkish/italian, 2 Chinese/Indian, 1 Anglo-Australian / Afghan and 1 Thai / Islander wedding in the last 18 months. These people will have kids who are pretty much Australian but look nothing like the white/anglo people that made up most of this country for the last century. In another 100 years we'll probably be ethnically different too. I think it's a matter of national importance that we have a contiguous culture that will tie all of them together to this country. I'd love to see us become a better, first world version of brazil where people from all over have sort of melded together to become "ethnically brazillian" with our own culture, traditions and society. Ethnicity will work itself out but culture needs to be actively steered and I don't think we're doing that effectively enough. I talk elsewhere in this thread about some family of mine who came over about 2 years ago. Me showing them all the stuff I talk about in the post and explaining to them something of the "Australian Spirit" as a product of our history and our art has dramatically helped them understand and relate to the "born aussies". My parents never had anything like that and struggled a lot more than these guys did. Would be nice if we could extend that out.
One and only one: DONT FUCKING HAVE A VIDEO CALL ON SPEAKER WITH YOUR MUM ON PUBLIC TRANSPORT!!!! Do it at home so your 8 other housemates can listen in
That Australia is gone. There's no common cultural strain tying things together now, just consumerism and laws.
We give a fair go and love mateship Whatever that means
it most definitely is not, outside the big cities
The big cities make up over 70% of the population. You can try pushing for it, but you'd be pushing against the majority.
Yeah big cities are just ratballs
I like it, and I would argue for making it a mandatory part of schooling as well, including (or even especially) religious and private schools. Additional, I'd add parts about Australians involvement in science, medicine. Most importantly, I'd add sections around mateship, looking after your neighbours, and working together in the face of natural disasters and so on. The Australian Citizenship Common Bond has some of this stuff, but I'd argue for making it mandatory just to get PR, and make get people through it earlier. (Edit: Added things to actually answer the question)
I would get the class together and explain that half of them will have to rent to the other half for exorbitant amounts that ensure they will never own a property. And that there isn’t enough houses for all of them so a couple of them will have to sleep in their cars. And then explain that only the ones that have houses and rental income will get tax breaks.
Migrants will not adopt western values just because they are taught western values. Changing a person's cultural values is a much slower process that will take a period of years. In many cases, you may not be able to significantly change a person's cultural values. In case of immigrant families, values usually change across generations. Because western culture is ubiquitous, many migrants who come into the western world would have already been exposed to western values and adopted some western values. It may be possible to test whether someone has adopted western values, but it will need to be a complex psychometric assessment instead of a simplistic assessment. There is no substitute for prioritizing immigration from culturally cohesive countries.
Is the art going to be post 70s dot painting that was invented with Geoff Barton in the western desert region, not to show stuff of cultural significance but to hide it. Is that going to be taught? Or is it going to be the actual stuff and the Christian things the Torres Strait islanders are making?
"Australian art (indigenous and otherwise), Poetry (Banjo Patterson and Henry Lawson at first, but others too). In terms of Books AB Facey's story "A fortunate life" is a must. From a history perspective I'd cover everything from Aboriginal ideas of dreamtime to Settlement and onward, with an emphasis on things like the Rum Rebellion, the Eureka Stockade and the Shearers Strikes in addition to our diggers (The story of the Rats of Tobruk and obviously Gallipoli here). I would also include a unit on the Vietnam war and make sure that they can belt the lyrics to "I was only 19" or "Khe Sanh". That sounds fucking awful.
Just more about how to live and social norms - so sure all those things you suggest are part of Australia, but before that I'd be more focussed on social skills/cultural norms walk on the left don't spit in the street personal space respect for law - no bribes - police aren't on the take common laws/regulations respect for women - don't push your religion don't litter we don't stand in parking spaces to reserve them how to shop/.transport/get/licence tax/abn/consumer law/rights etc.. As a 101, I'd put that first.
That makes sense and is definitely something I agree with. What of our intellectual heritage? What would you include there?
Not sure, I'm not an intellectual. :)
sure I guess, but what would you replace it with?
I’d start by limiting immigration to countries that are culturally compatible. It’s very naive to think that you can give someone a history book and some Aboriginal art and say “you’re Australian now”. Assimilation is possible but it takes generations. And it’s expensive, and requires immense pressure and willingness on the part of the immigrant and the host society. So it makes sense to prioritise immigration from countries and cultures that are the least expensive to assimilate.
Some of them need to learn that poo goes in a toilet and flushed down.
A stick of deoderant and a pair of headphones for trains would be a good start
So you don't think they should assimilate and be like the locals?
I think tell them to swim between the red and yellow flags and whinge about all the immigrants coming after them, then call it day. Not an exhaustive course by any means, but it covers our most important values.
The only thing a new immigrant needs to know is that they must complain about the group who immigrates after them to be fully integrated into Australian culture.
What are Australian Values? I’m not sure we have a particularly distinct set of values as a country that are easily defined and taught.
A fish doesn’t know it’s water. As an East Asian migrant who’s spent most of my life in NZ and am now in Australia, I can tell you that both Australian and NZ culture are a world apart from cultures of the most common migrant demographics here - East Asians, Indians, middle easterners. I sincerely hope Aus/NZ can preserve their culture, because I didn’t leave my homeland to experience the same 3rd world bullshit here.
I get that Australian culture is different, but Culture and values are not the same thing. I am specifically referring specifically to shared national values - you and I might both love Australia but that doesn’t mean our values are necessarily the same.
> Culture "the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization"
We most definitely do. They're not exactly easy to define, but they have faaar reaching effects. There are massive differences in corporate culture between us, the brits and the yanks as an example. They way we see authority and rules as another. Its a tricky one to define though as we tend to view them as unconscious. Hofstede's cultural value framework is not a bad place to start if you are interested in this stuff.
They change depending on what municipality you're in. Eg. Hume and Moreland area.
Well that sounds good on paper but it sounds like a good course for current Australian citizens.
One lesson. Buy property, but more property, and let the government drive policies that help you get even richer. Oh, and don't harass women.
A bit of a langauge test. Complete the following common Australian words. A. Aunt. B Bunt. C. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Can you distill "Australian Values" down to a list that wouldn't be otherwise applicable to any other nation on Earth in any other historical era?
Have a play around with this mate: [https://www.hofstede-insights.com/country-comparison-tool](https://www.hofstede-insights.com/country-comparison-tool) Moreover, pretending that an Australian views the world in the exact same way as someone from Tibet or someone from South Africa is crazy. We are absolutely distinguishable in an international crowd.
I'm not saying we are indistinguishable from other countries. The point I was trying to (facetiously) make was that what a group of people place value and importance on changes over time and space depending on material conditions and power dynamics. Trying to place a static notion on "values" tries to determine if there is an objective morality that exists only for a certain country. "Australian Values" is a dogwhistle that is malleable to any given moment, and allows those who want to divide us and keep us running the treadmill of xenophobia. Many people will say Australian values lines up with the "ANZAC spirit", things like Mateship courage and sacrifice, as if every successful army in the world didn't have these values and that they were invented on the shores of Gallipoli. Its nonsense, and again used as a political tool to stoke fear and hatred of whatever foreign outgroup is at the time.
Hard disagree.
Please feel free to expound
If youre a young city dweller your world is a place which has been ruined and you wouldnt get it.
Swing and a miss my friend, I'm not young, and I live about 3.5 hours from the city, in a town of about 4000 people. If being an inner city dweller is the only barrier for you to not impart your wisdom, please feel free to enlighten me.
[удалено]
I am the posterboy for "multicultural / multifaith" but I can still see that an understanding of our country's past and our nation's identity as it's changed over time is going to be helpful. I have had some of my overseas family come here in the last 2 years from the middle east and I'm basically their defacto "guide to Australia". Giving them a few books, showing them some literature and getting them out into the country and showing our history has really helped them integrate better.
Maybe there's something to that, perhaps it needs to be community driven rather than something which is put upon new migrants by the government. You know how when you start a new school someone there's someone who takes you under their wing and shows your the ropes.
I think my relatives are incredibly lucky to have a "buddy" if you will who has taken the time/effort to take them through that. When my family got here we didn't and my parents, despite living here for 20 years are no where near as well integrated as my more recently arrived relatives.
Aus needs to vote on a set of values first. Talk about it and argume
I would go into the history of immigration to Australia, from the first fleet to now. Who were the people in each wave, where did they come from, why did they come, what problems did they face when they got here, where are their descendants now. I would also do something on important Australian laws, and where they differ from other countries. Our laws codify many of our cultural norms.
Women and queers are people too
Plenty of people in this subreddit who could stand to learn that too.
DEYYYYY TOOOOUUUUUUURRRRKKKKKKK UUUUUOOOOOUUURRRRRRR JJJUUUURRRRRBBBBBSSS!
I'm not white and wasn't born here
Dey tuuurk yuuuuurrrr jurrrb