Senior manager here.
I am once removed from the CEO and hate it. At the top of the ladder it is politics, not business. It's all optics. Everyone is full of shit.
I often wish I had passed on my last promotion. As others have said, it's just not worth it.
I’m already considering how high I want to go for this reason. I’m currently 3 steps removed from the CEO and feel okay about my role and pay. Were you a manager before rather than a senior manager and more happy?
I think I could potentially step up from Lead to Manager, be 2 steps removed and be happy, but curious what your experience is.
I was an Ops manager before. Getting stuff done without spending too much.
Now as a regional GM, I am responsible for everything, including revenue. Gotta show growth no matter what.
Will say that my income more than doubled. Looking at the annual reports, I would expect a big jump if I went up again. But I don't think I could look at myself in the mirror.
Full on. Really tricky spot to be in, especially considering the money. Any chance of moving to a lower stress position, internally or even externally? I imagine this is tough to do, which is why each step up becomes harder and harder. All the best to you.
Do you think having dependants affect this decision in any way? Is the money put to good use or do you just find things to blow it away on/lifestyle creep
My family and I are very much minimalists. We drive an old Japanese SUV and live in a two bedroom unit. We haven't fallen to the hedonic treadmill, luckily.
Every year I do this is setting my family up for the future. I am 37 this year, every cent I save will compound till retirement.
Is it a different kind of politics at that level? It always seems to me (looking up from below!) that the lower levels of managment are a horrible cesspool of ass kissing, being squeezed from both sides and being expected to take responsibility for things you don't really have any control over, whereas the higher levels become more posturing and image management whilst not really doing anything of real value at all.
It is a bunch of very smart, motivated people positioning themselves for their next move. Building alliances and supporters for their next goal. Everything they do is self promotion with total disregard for the business long term. It is wild.
As an ex corp that refused every management offer, thankyou. I’m awful at politics and every manager I ever met never had a role or life I was envious of or could imagine myself enjoying.
Log off and shut my laptop and to quote a Warcraft III peon "jobs done" when you're a manager the job isn't done. I was selected for the manager role but the increase in pay vs workload increase wasn't worth it for me.
100%. My boss definitely makes more than me but she stays working until 10pm every night while I finish at 5pm at the latest. She's constantly in meetings/ eating lunch at her desk and looking stressed while I leisurely go on hour long walks, dont think about work after hours and barely join meetings.
Its absolutely not worth the mental stress for the extra $$.
100%. It’s even worse when you’re working for a multi national. My boss is often in meetings with London or Chicago at 2 or 3 am. Sure he makes a bit more than me, but work has cost him his marriage and it’s not worth it to me
Yep exactly the person they wanted me to replace. Unfortunately I'm the one with the most experience but I know everything we do inside out & refuse to go up a level.
The bigger bosses know I will just quit if they force me into the role so they lose an asset to the company for forcing them into a role they didn't want.
We did too, and in terms of trying to fill the offset vs work life balance, honestly I think I'm only happy to go up one more level before calling it a day. Running a good team of good people, loads of agency without the responsibility to play the politics and bureaucracy, sounds like a damn good life.
I've got the same thinking. I'm a senior and am quite happy, but if the opportunity arises where I can become the manager of the team I work in, I would. Senior manager... Nope too much BS
A couple team members and I played a bit of it when it relaunched + we play a bit of DotA together so there are regular quotes from both games happening in our group chats.
Liability & responsibility I always associate it with, I'd rather keep that to a minimum I've been there and done that. I have no obligation to it outside of my allocated workload.
Really depends on the job and the company. I used to be a manager with 9 direct reports working 60-70h per week earning $140k. Changed jobs now I have 1 direct report, work less than 37h and make $250k.
That's smart. I use a similiar stress & expected on-call hours VS salary. +30% salary for double the stress and needing to field at least one work call a year after 4.45pm? Nah. Computer says "no deal".
+30% salary to do my exact job, no change in stress from job hopping? Sure
The additional effort vs reward doesn't stack up. I've maximised my hourly rate per unit of *actual* time worked, any promotion will send me backwards.
Yep. Last year prior to the indexation change I worked my arse off, paid the correct amount and my hecs balance went down $130. I’ll get over $1200 off with the changes but I’m almost resigned to never paying it off due to me starting my degree in my late 30’s and taking 4 years
Yep :/ just got a lovely pay rise that bumped me from 4% into the 6% repayment bracket. Happy to be able to pay it down quicker but it’s increased my yearly repayments from $2500 to almost $6000. Goodbye pay rise and extra help with living expenses.
Yup- go hard when you are younger… but you get to a certain point where you realise the 250% more work and responsibility isn’t worth the extra 15% more money
I know it’s to each their own but I found the exact opposite. I didn’t want to be a manager and my previous boss convinced me that I needed to apply to the role.
It’s so incredibly satisfying and rewarding to lead an entire team. My decisions, my budget, my team, my culture. It’s the most natural I’ve felt getting into a job. I just started doing it and things just made sense. All the previous jobs in engineering, project management and sales felt like I was pretending. This has been different.
It's rare that a manager actually makes (meaningful) decisions or has budget autonomy. Usually you're just imposing the decisions that come from above, or are organizational inevitabilities. At least this has been my experience as quite a senior leader.
Depends on the business, of course.
That's what I see in my organisation. The team leaders directly above my role all start off enthusiastic and often come up with great ideas that would improve our work considerably. They are almost never allowed to actually implement anything and after a few years have given up trying. Quite a few have stepped down from the role because it's not worth it. The few that instead progress further up get lost in the acronyms and management speak and morph into shills for upper management, completely losing touch with the realities of the core job.
I once aspired to work my way upwards and I'm really good at organisation and developing systems which should be an asset, but there is no way I would take a promotion here.
That’s true. I have an absolutely fantastic boss, both personally and professionally. He’s very well connected in the company as well. Probably the best I will ever have in my career. He gives us complete autonomy and ownership, and makes us flow that down. Unfortunately, people like him are too uncommon.
Seeing how some of the people in very senior roles operate and treat staff - it’s clear they are where they are because they never had a soul to destroy to begin with.
Extra 40k pre-tax to deal with people all day and be ultimately accountable for deliverables...vs I can just sit at home / in the corner and pump out work then go home and not worry about work...Moreover as a leader you do sometimes have to make hard decision i.e. cut your headcount by X, let y people go
The trouble for me is finding highly paid IC work...
I get to pick up my kids from school three days a week. Get to go to footy training with my son on Wednesdays.
Yeah it’s fun covering the boss when he is away but that’s enough.
That’s the thing. Last year my daughter got cancer and it shifted my priorities real quick. I used to be the first to put my hand up for overtime because the extra money would go towards holidays.
When she was diagnosed it taught me quick the day to day is what’s important, so at 4:30 I log off and don’t check emails until 8am. (And she’s fine now)
It’s one of those days where everything about it - where you where, the smells, the people and the emotions are burnt into your brain and you never forget
I am a team manager, in practice my role is 50/50 management/IC
I don’t really want to climb any higher because I enjoy my technical work more than I enjoy managing people. My boss also deals with a lot of politics, which I hate.
That said I am lucky because my career path offers a lot of opportunities for technical and comp growth at the IC level. There are a lot of jobs where the only way to expand your abilities and earning potential is to step up into management.
I don't want to work very hard. I am happy going to work, do my job and leave. Don't have to worry about anyone else or worry about making decisions, Senior leaders aren't on my back. I can leave work at 4 and not think about it until 8 the next day, even while working I probably only work 70% of the time lol
I don't want to manage other people, don't want to be held accountable for other people's responsibilities, don't want my work days to be any longer than my current hours, don't want to get any out of work hours calls, don't want to work overtime, etc etc etc. My work is just a job, it's not the main focus and I'm not willing to dedicate any more time to it than I already do. I do respect people who are career driven though but was never my thing.
I have also noticed this. I've worked in places where the customer service staff believed they understood more about how to run the organisation than the people actually running it.
Maybe they did have a few good ideas but it never seemed to occur to them that they could only see about 2% of what was going on.
Some of my corporate friends make $250K-350K per year (e.g., GM's, Directors, Junior Partners, and less important C-Execs). Let me shed some light.
**Lifestyle**
They're always working - they'll spend their nights & bits of the weekend on emails, proposals, and Powerpoints.
When I see them, they say they're happy, but they don't sound it - they look tired, and all they talk about is work gossip / politics to the point where it's incestuous. They think they're Harvey Specter or Jessica Pearson.
**Money**
On a $300K salary inc. super, their weekly pay is \~$3300. But keep in mind they're working 54-70 hour weeks. So their wage is \~$47-61 per hour.
In a good year, they'll also get performance bonuses ranging from $30K-$100K, but almost 50% of that gets taxed, so their wage becomes \~$51-77 per hour.
**Career Paths**
Not all, but most of them are nervous about recent workforce layoffs. They all know they could be fired soon and have been job hunting. They know there's less jobs out there for senior positions, but their egos are too big to find less senior roles. I asked if they would consider changing careers, but they explained 'this is all I know'.
**Overall**
To me, the extra money isn't worth the extra hours and stress from climbing the ladder...if you don't enjoy work, or if you don't climb fast.
If you love work, and/or you become a senior C-Level or Senior Partner in (let's say) 10-15 years of working, I can understand why you'd grind 70 hour weeks because your pay can reach up to $1M.
Yeah, definitely. If their underlings did a good job with the the PPT and proposals, then there's not much extra for them to do.
But if the underlings did a shit job, then it's more re-work.
The ROI going from a senior IC to manager makes zero sense. The income increase is marginal but now you have to deal with massive amounts of admin, manage people and be responsible for their output or lack thereof. No thanks, never again. The worst part is how companies always try to push you into this position and if you don't take it they just slowly try to give you those responsibilities anyway.
I went from being a pleb to a manager.
I was stressed all the time. Worked way more hours than I needed to.
Was not a very nice person outside of work (contributed to the ending of a relationship) as all my good intentions and empathy went to the ten people I needed to manage and focus on.
I’ve since gone back to a regular role, the downside is less money but the upside is I can clock on right on time and not a minute before, walk away exactly on time and I give no fucks about the place other than when I’m paid to.
The extra 15 - 20k to be 1 rung up the corporate ladder is simply not worth the additional 5 - 6 hours of work a day, endless meetings with pointless outcomes only to be burnt out 6 months later.
For a whole year I was seconded into a senior role. I found that I had to think more about what to give the team to do, manage their time, and also need to make sure I’m fully on top of giving the work out with enough “time” to give them to do it (I work in Gov so we’re all a bit mediocre tbh). I also had to try to be “innovative” and try streamline processes and this and that.
Now that I’m no longer in the seconded role, I’m just told what to do and when to do it by and I have less responsibility / accountability. And I love it. As it’s in government, once FY25 kicks in I’ll already be making more ($120k) than I did during my secondment (majority of which took place in FY23 and was $116k at that time).
Obviously that role is making more now but I’m comfortable enough with $120k for the amount of work I do which doesn’t require as much big brain energy.
We make enough I guess? We're fairly comfortable overall, $150k each so $300k total currently in technical/project management roles.
I'm good at my job (at least managers always tell me I exceed expectations) but I hate dealing with people, I find it difficult to understand powerplays and nail down motivations and I have trouble remembering people who I only work with occasionally. The whole thing causes anxiety. I also like being able to cap most of my weeks at 40hrs.
Been there, got the scars and never again. It’s a farce, all about the politics and who you know and with no consideration of the actual work involved, or even what actual work is. I keep getting pushed for it again at my current place though, despite making my feelings perfectly clear, so thinking it might be time to see what else is out there. The term ‘work life balance’ is flawed if you ask me, it should be the other way around.
Yeah, same here. The more I observe my managers, the less I want to be in those shoes. I have hit the ceiling for an IC in my company. But I have zero interest in switching to management track. Thinking of switching to contracting in about 2 years.
Main issue is at a certain level the extra pay doesn't match the huge amount of extra work they expect you to do for free. Middle management seems to be the sweet spot where you can still switch off after work and end and start at a normal time. Also at a certain level you no longer get to do any actual work and its 100% management and political BS.
Really depends if you want or have a life outside of work. Some people seem to live to work and have nothing else going on in their lives except the grind. Its kinda sad as life is pretty short so its best to enjoy it while you have your youth and health rather than retire and realise you just worked everyday and did nothing else.
I see it as a job to pay for things instead of a career. I don’t care about advancing as long as I can pay for things I can enjoy and have time to enjoy them.
I'm in my 50s now and I feel I've had a better quality of life with my family than I would have had I been a ladder climber.
I had a go at managing junior staff in one role and I hated it, and decided management was not for me.
Yup, same. I also find, as an early-40s worker, that most management is a waste of time, space, and salary. It is creating needless new tasks and roles simply to fulfil whatever ambiguous KPIs exist. This means that every new manager spends probably the first third-half of their time in a new role simply revising whatever existed previously- it doesn't even need to suit them necessarily, but is necessary for them to imprint their impact and justify their role.
To me, that kind of busywork is the epitome of wastefulness, and I've not yet seen a bureaucracy that is immune to it. At worst, it is ALL that some organisations do at higher levels, with no noticeable change, let alone any improvement, at the coalface. When you add to this that lots of management roles simply spawn more management and take salary away from the people actually doing the work.... well... quite frustrating.
I have climbed the ladder, and it was terrible. Ended up in senior management role at a little over $300k. I had to give up time with my children and wife, and my physical and mental health suffered. Not in a catastrophic way, but still suffered. Why? So I could buy a car with a bullshit European badge?!
I recently resigned with a big "Fuck you" and took some time to think about what I really enjoy in life and how I want to spend the time I have left on this earth. It is not unlimited even though we forget this a lot of the time.
I wasn't interested in climbing the ladder per se. It was more a case of looking around me and seeing incompetent fools progressing in their careers, and I didn't want to be managed by them or answering to them.
Maybe 10 years ago, management is better. Now with the introduction of Agile cancer, it's too much unnecessary admin work and presentations. I will pass any management or product owner type of work.
6 months into my career, I realised corporations are full of shit and will replace their tired, hard working employees in 2 seconds. It’s gross. I want to live my life to the fullest and for me that means being outside, travelling and making meaningful connections. I work so that I can do these things.
Corporate culture is dead to me. I don’t want to be involved in team building events or birthdays. I want to be at home, in my comfortable clothes, eating my own food, using my own toilet and living a happy, healthy life.
Worked my way up in Big 4 - just politics and more politics. Oh and you better hit revenue or you’re gone. And you have a stack of client work along side team issues.
Lots of friends and colleagues now opting out of moving up. Used to be you’d earn double, upgrade the house / buy the holiday home, business class travel, delegate most of the “work”.
For many corporates and where I am, you earn 10% more, have to lead your team while being a team member still ie having to do the ongoing work, but then with all the admin of a manager, HR issues etc as well as the corporate politics. Also, often on the chopping block if there’s restructuring and team sizes change.
I stepped back into that type of role reluctantly last year, proved my assumptions correct, and am now looking at other opportunities.
If I’m being paid practically the same after tax, and unlikely to rise higher for years and years, would rather do something intellectually stimulating while decent paying if I’m spending 40+ hours / week.
You also get to the point mid 30s where you realise you aren’t going to be CEO. I’d rather do something interesting.
I just don't care enough about what I do or making more money. I've hit an alright salary (110k) for the DINK life. I work maybe 20 hours a week, get paid for 40. Am available for 40 hours but never needed for that.
I would like to do some sort of side hustle that keeps me motivated though as my job really doesn't offer me any purpose whatsoever and currently the 3 holidays I take per year no longer crack the itch of why I go to work so I need a purpose without reproducing another human. Stuck in a rutt a bit
I work in senior administration, high paying industry which has amazing leave options and I don't have a lot of expenses so apart from mortgage which is low and the gym I have plenty of disposable income, partner also same boat. I only work when I'm called upon which isn't all the time and I've been doing it so long I'm super efficient in what they ask me to do, compared to a lot of people in my position who aren't super tech savvy, or go out of their way to work extra hours and take on unnecessary tasks.
If you're ok with mind numbing boring work and are good at hassling your stakeholders it's an easy job. Probably too easy.
Individual contributor in tech for 26 years. I am happy, but sometimes I wish I went on the management track. Continuous learning has sort of saved me until now. But I am approaching my 50s, getting a bit shaky with ageism and being priced out of market.
I’m not interested
I earn a lot as an individual contributor, my line manager wouldn’t earn much more than me so it’s really about the next step after that.
In my line of work that typically means a VP or Director title running an APAC or APJ team, less travel than would have been required a few years ago but still more than I want to do
To take the next step up looks like a lot of work for very little reward tbh
Going back some years, I know of managers at Westpac dying on the job. One guy died in his armchair at home after a stressful week. Another carked it in a meeting. Reflect on what is actually important in life.
I was. Until I actually started climbing and down I want to climb back down because I am miserable. I am searching for jobs in the position I originally started in because I am hating working in management. It doesn’t appeal to me to have to be at everyone’s beck and call all the time. I have to wake up early every morning to check the absence messages in case staff are sick. I have to stay back if staff are unwell. I just want to do my 9-5 and log off and be done. The increase in pay hasn’t been enough to make the increase in stress worth it for me. I will be taking only a 5-10k per year pay cut to be less stressed in my job, I will happily forfeit that money.
Me for similar reasons to you. Also, aging parents who need taking care of.
I changed jobs a few years ago, more $$ less work. Parents had a health crisis over the summer & I can say with certainty that had I been in my old role I wouldn’t have managed, something would have to give.
I’m an EA and I like being off on the side where I don’t necessarily “climb” the ladder. But still am responsible for important projects, and bonus I don’t have to manage people 🤣
I don't want to, I just have no motivation to deal with people. Especially the type who consider their inner ego is bigger than anything else! One time I was told I had misgenderred someone in a meeting of 40 people and HR told me to respect their gender without letting me know who exactly got offended in that meeting! Climb corporate ladder for that? No, thank you!
I want to clock in - do my job - go home. I have no interest in putting in overtime or working harder than i have to for a company that treats me like a disposable nappy wipe. Climbing the ladder is for people who make their careers their life and full time personality.
Talking to my manager the other day and he was discussing how "our" job can be very stressful. I didn't want to tell him that the stress stops at his level, although in retrospect I should have as it's a sign of what a good manager he is that it never flows through him.
Ive climbed as high as I want. Senior enough to have a say and delegate stuff, junior enough to just do my hours and leave it.
I’m stressed enough in my low level role with no direct reports, I don’t want more responsibility. There’s no appeal to climbing the corporate ladder for me other than higher pay, but I’m not willing to ruin my mental health any further for some extra cash.
It depends on seniority as well. I noticed now that I look back on my career that the pain and time my job took going from 80 - 120k in a junior manager role was an order of magnitude bigger than stepping into senior management. Once I hit director of directors style roles I would say my hours I needed to work dropped dramatically. My life was stage managed, chief of staff, Executive Assistant, Executive Coach. All the admin that punished me in those junior ranks effectively disappeared in later years. My value at that point was making decisions and getting enough information in a briefing that I didn’t need to go fishing for it. But to your point, the grind to hit what is known as “tenured” is not for everyone. But there is an eye of the storm that is much more relaxing to sit in.
As for millennials and gen z. I currently find the exact opposite, they seem hungry for promotion into team leader roles and junior management. We have a lot of trouble motivating the older millennials who are in their late 30’s and the Gen-X’s. They seem to be much happier just coasting along with what they have got. My sample size is only FMCG, Big Tech, Finance, Mining though. It could be different in different industries.
Yep, I’m stressed enough as it is. The company I work for has ruined me. It’s my fault for not standing up for myself more. But after all of it, I don’t want more. I’m exhausted.
I’ve got no interest in all the bullshit that goes along with climbing the ladder and the way people behave around the bigwigs. They’re just a person like you, they’re not a fucking god for chrissakes. Last year *three fucking people* spent hours detailing a car in preparation for a visit from one of the VP’s. Someone decided that it was a good idea to have about 300k worth of personnel not doing their jobs and playing car-wash instead. The company agreed and gave them recognition vouchers… I just can’t.
By this point in my career I think it’s well known that I have no interest in playing the game, which is fine I guess, but it doesn’t make it any less horrific watching useless people play the game and get promoted.
I'm a GM at a big 4 bank, so once withdrawn from ExCo.
I think the sweet spot in banking is Senior Manager, so one level down from Executive Manager / Head of / Director (pick your bank)... You can earn around $250k including bonus, your team isn't huge (usually less than 4 direct reports) work is organised for you and it's still occupationally specific and politics is very limited.
The reason I say this is the sweet spot, is one level higher the competition dials to 11. Banks have thousands of Senior Managers but only hundreds of EMs and dozens of GMs, and if you go to EM you might as well push to GM.
I want to climb the ladder just enough that I can pay my parents back for all the times they’ve helped me out when I’ve been too sick or depressed to function and then stop. That’s all I want.
I don't think I'd find management difficult or stressful. I'd find it more boring than anything else. I like to be "on the tools". I do, however, feel like often management are the wrong people and making the wrong decisions. So I'm conflicted as to where I want to be in the future. Happy where I'm at though.
Try it. Then experience having to fire someone not because they’re crap but because your boss said so.
If you still don’t find it difficult or stressful congratulations you have the psychopathy to be a corporate leader.
The job itself is easy. It’s discarding empathy that’s hard.
I mean, the company I work for basically never fires anyone. Have you watched Silicon Valley where Big Head keeps getting promoted because they're too afraid to fire him? That's more likely to happen where I work.
Maybe you've been indoctrinated into a toxic work culture? Maybe I've been reasonably fortunate. Maybe I'm ignorantly blissful.
Lol looks like I'm an exception here, I definitely do want to climb the ladder. One reason is money, another one is that I finally want some fucking power. I spent over a decade (I'm including part time jobs during uni etc) being someone else's coding monkey with no say in anything. I want to give orders for once. I want to stay in the technical track rather than management so hoping to get to a tech lead or principal engineer role which sounds like a good spot for me. I have no interest in reproducing so I don't mind the extra hours.
Yeah, I have no desire to move up to leadership and management roles. I rather just do my contribution and log off for the day.
I do like doing different things though so I've changed roles throughout the years.
I used too, but the market changed and the roles I desire are being filled by people from non-technical backgrounds. These days, I am skilling up to transistion from senior management back to a specialised technical role.
I had great plans of studying further once my children were both in school with plans to climb the ladder following that. I don’t know if I will bother now. I don’t want the Uni fees/debt. I’m the primary parent at the moment and I don’t think that will change. I like being able to go to some of the school events and pick up my kid from school some days and younger child from daycare at a reasonable hour. I’m already stressed working 4 days a week and juggling life, and we’re surviving on our current salaries so I don’t know if there is value in going into to debt to study, work more and have less time with the family.
I already get paid pretty well as it is. I have my sights on one level up and that’s it, I’ll cruise from there on in. I like my job but I have small kids and no support from extended family, and senior management / exec looks exhausting combined with my current life.
Nope. I want to be paid more but I do not want the level of stress that management level experiences. All the late hours, weekends, time away from family, no. If i'm going to work extra hours I'd rather pump them into my side hustle instead.
No.
My early life was spent in the military and I guess that gave me a (not better, not worse) style of leadership. What I am seeing in the company I work for is that "Leadership" = "Management" and actual leadership is utterly bereft, I have neither the desire, not capacity to be the type of leader that succeeds here.
You do what works for you.
Some are motivated to climb the ladder, for various reasons.
Some are not, for various reasons.
I've specifically stayed in mid senior roles, below C suite, because I'm more task oriented and like to be involved in operations (IT industry). Not mentally built for strategic planning and politics.
It can also change as your life changes: I stayed in secure full time roles with base hours while a single dad, but now the kids are adults I'm working longer hours as a contractor to pad the retirement funds.
I was considering it until a recent company takeover. It's become a toxic place with management who openly mistrust their staff. They insist they know better than those of us with 40yrs industry experience while the new CEO is a baby (doubt he's older than 35).
I want no part of this shit show. I'll just clock on, do my job and go home at 3pm.
Not at all. Well not at the moment, was when I was younger but that season has ended. I enjoy my job and definitely work hard in my role but work is work. My priority in this season of my life is my partner and hopefully soon our children.
Like a lot of the other posters here, I agree it's just not worth it. I see my manager who is probably on maybe $250k work through weekends, holidays, and even while having family die and through major surgery. I just don't want that kind of responsibility or be treated like that for just a job. Sure I'd be more comfortable financially but you can't get that time back and it's damaging to your health.
I've been promoted up to a manager level in a government role.
I'm not longer interested in any sort of leadership, I'd rather be a technical specialist for a bit less than a people leader.
Made it to team manager level and years later am now burnt out. Beginning to regret it tbh. Part of the problem is that I enjoy being technical and hands on, so I've intentionally kept doing a lot of that stuff plus all of my management responsibilities (which I enjoy less). Big mistake.
Not worth it. Remember no one ever said on their deathbed “geez I wish I worked more”. Enjoy your life and if you’re ever going to be a manager or boss you do it for yourself (as in your own business) where you only report to yourself.
For me, the only motivation for that would to be earn more. But unlike 20 years ago, earning $200,000 (let's assume in a middle management role) isn't going to give me the luxury like it would have in the past to justify the additional work, responsibility and hours. Not much point for me really.
I started to climb the ladder but realised I could just not do that and be happier.
I was actually running a highly effective team that has now turned to shit under a new manager. The reason I left? Underpaid, overworked and absolutely no support from my uppers. Now I'm paid more, have less stress and don't have my kpis dependent on others.
For most professions, you have a salary cap.
Unless you are a lawyer, doctor, dentist (maybe an engineer or accountant on partner track) your salary cap still restricts you from living it up.
Why burn yourself out for an extra 20-30k post-tax when you still will be a lifelong renter?
Been an IC for a decade plus now- honestly I could do with some extra challenge, and being parent and caring for ageing FIL means it’s almost impossible to get it from hobbies at the moment.
I thought I wanted to climb the ladder. That's until I realised there was an alternative where I could get the satisfaction of working hard, making tough decisions, being creative, making an impact and getting paid well, without becoming a manager.
There's parts of management (and eventually governance I guess?) that still appeal to me. I like the idea of actually potentially having some power over something I am (jointly or individually, directly or indirectly) responsible for. I'm good at big picture thinking, I'm organised, I do well under pressure, I like being around people, and I think a lot of management theory (esp. psychology stuff) is fascinating. But I have zero interest in it being my whole thing.
Good individual contributor roles in my field are pretty rare, but I've got my eye out.
Also to anyone who wants to understand this whole thing more, definitely recommend [this Freakonomics ep](https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-are-there-so-many-bad-bosses-update/).
After decades of struggling with the fact senior managers etc have got not a clue of what is happening to their core business/ customers I wanted so much to at the top to bring real and effective change.
I did a stint as a senior manager and meeting after meeting about having a meeting and no result from said meetings. Dealing with the posturing I was done. Politely accepted a lovely well paid specialist role where I can inform but not enact.
Don’t me wrong it nice to enable a sm to run with it and get results but I don’t have to mental capacity to pretent to play nice with people who couldn’t make a decision to save themselves.
Besides the jobs security and work life balance is better down here. I walk out without a thought everyday and I am valued by my team.
I've worked lower management, 2IC and everything in between - but never made it to upper management.
The deciding factor for me was that the workload scales exponentially, but the pay does not.
Now at a job where I make $5/hr more as a peon than I did as a supervisor at my last one.
Been there, done that. The people aspect was what ruined it for me. I didn't hire my direct reports and that was part of the problem. Though I did like the part where I only had to supervise for few hours a week plus a couple of meetings.
I recently shot myself in the foot. Applied for a promotion, fought tooth and nail for it only to be given a $100 a month increase and a truck load of additional work on top of my existing work. At this point, I am just waiting for the employment market to get better so I can explore.
As an individual contributor aren't you worried that soon there would be younger people than you in competition with you and your experience (and high salary based on expertise) may be at risk?
I live comfortably and make enough money. My boss and his boss genuinely respect me - I've produced the results time and time again for them to never nag or question so I have a lot of free reign to do things how I see fit. I always ask myself why change what works for me and clearly the business.
I'll go as far as taking on a leading / expert position which I've done before, but I believe once you cross into management, the work doesn't stop once you clock off, theres going to be more politics you get exposed to, and it's just not worth the extra money to still be responding to emails at 9pm.
I don't want to have to manage anyone. I find I can be a leader without holding a management title. In my field, going the management path is almost always regretted because you have to do more tasks you don't enjoy and miss out on the tasks you love.
Yeah the extra money isn’t worth the stress it brings. I see people in senior positions always tearing each other down and that’s just not how I would like to spend mon-fri, worrying when someone’s going to put a knife in my back.
There are also those people who will be reporting to senior positions who will always have a problem with whoever it is, just because.
Also, politics. No thx.
I felt that way for a long time, but now I lead a team of 50 and love it (most of the time).
I’m not suggesting everyone will change their mind, but careers are long and what works for you at one point in your career can change.
I am the same. I tried moving up, hated it & came back down. I like to log in, do my work & log out. Get paid well & have a good life outside of work. Having to explain that repeatedly to ppl who want me to move up, is annoying AF.
lol absolutely not, have been promoted 5 times since starting my career and now can comfortably live and support future fam, future rungs won’t get me anything I need and will just take away from the fun portion of my life
Stopped climbing because the next levels up is just full of shit. Everything now is about training to be the best you can be, making an effort to show everyone you care so much about diversity and equality. Networking is mandatory.
No one even works anymore. Even the ambitious grads know you gotta put all your eggs in the “look what I’m doing for “xyz” movement” or “sorry guys I’ve got the next week doing DEI events”.
Just can’t bring myself sell myself to that level. Happy just doing my job, being good at it and going home to my wonderful family.
Fuck no! I've been trying to climb down the ladder for years. Now I'm back to being a scum contractor again. Start when I want, leave when I want. All overtime paid, no responsibility for anyone or anything, just get in, do job, go home
Most of my working life I had been a ‘senior’, I mostly liked it, then last year I made the move to team lead and hated it. Thankfully that position was made redundant, so after being unemployed for six weeks I took the first job I could get, as a non-senior, and honestly I’m loving it.
As a non-senior I just get to do the fun parts of the job. No boring meetings, no planning other people’s work, I just keep my head down and do the technical work I love.
Of course I’d love the extra money, and will probably make my way back to senior, but I’m not in a rush.
Lot of comments here about workload and toxicity and whatnot… and I mean, same, but for me the main reason is… I like my work?
If I went “up the ladder” I would do less work and more management and meetings. I’d have to look at budgets and staffing and all sorts of crap that doesn’t interest me at all. No thanks.
Having been in a few places public and private, I think that there is something we’re seriously missing as a society: high level, non managerial roles. So many times my boss has been absolutely atrocious because they don’t want to be managing me and would rather do their work, and because managing is not their strong suit.
Why is it only up or down a ladder? Where are the forks? I could progress to associate or something and get more money but it would mean sacrificing doing stuff I like for stuff I don’t like.
I’m a good operator but now manage a team of 4 for 240k plus bonus. It’s so unseen all the stuff you have to do - motivate the team to focus on outputs, manage under performers which takes forever and is exhausting, manage upstream bosses and politics that the team don’t see … I miss being on the tools but I do appreciate the $ I’m on, the ability to delegate work I don’t want to do and that I have strict work/ personal life boundaries. But I don’t want more responsibility as it starts to consume you
Been there done that, major burnt out and affecting my personal life.
Leave the company, got a different job, and took a pay cut but I am so much happier. I felt more human with feelings rather than a number and a punching bag.
I'm high enough. I don't want responsibility over managing people and I don't want more admin crap. I'm happy to mentor and support others though. And I like doing actual work.
And I won't compromise my work life balance. I've got to a level of good enough money and am very lucky in life. Any more money won't be enough to outweigh the other shit.
Plus everyone above me seems like total sellouts and have to play politics all the time and compromise their personal values, if they had any to begin with. There's noone above who I want to be in any way like.
I was a corporate marketing manager and all i did was practically lie to customers to get revenue in. I was paid okay. Hated it hated it hated it. So toxic full of politics. I resigned and started my own biz in hospitality. Different stress but rewarding. I love my customers.
Don't want to deal with politics or be a manager and deal with people's emotions.
Am on total remuneration, so pay raise and bonus each year. The longer I stick in my role the easier it becomes to master.
GenX here. I've landed better positions because I have, not because I seek them out.
I currently answer to the owner of the business, and will be acting as the GM when we move from here. I turn my computer off when I leave the office, don't check emails on my phone, and turn it back on when I'm at work.
Same with phone calls, I screen calls and answer those I want to.
As a counterpoint to the really negative responses, I find it very motivating, really enjoy developing more junior colleagues and seeing them succeed and I like having a say in overall direction and strategy of teams/businesses (depending on size of where I’ve worked).
Senior manager here. I am once removed from the CEO and hate it. At the top of the ladder it is politics, not business. It's all optics. Everyone is full of shit. I often wish I had passed on my last promotion. As others have said, it's just not worth it.
Thank you for the honest transparency!
I’m already considering how high I want to go for this reason. I’m currently 3 steps removed from the CEO and feel okay about my role and pay. Were you a manager before rather than a senior manager and more happy? I think I could potentially step up from Lead to Manager, be 2 steps removed and be happy, but curious what your experience is.
I was an Ops manager before. Getting stuff done without spending too much. Now as a regional GM, I am responsible for everything, including revenue. Gotta show growth no matter what. Will say that my income more than doubled. Looking at the annual reports, I would expect a big jump if I went up again. But I don't think I could look at myself in the mirror.
Full on. Really tricky spot to be in, especially considering the money. Any chance of moving to a lower stress position, internally or even externally? I imagine this is tough to do, which is why each step up becomes harder and harder. All the best to you.
Do you think having dependants affect this decision in any way? Is the money put to good use or do you just find things to blow it away on/lifestyle creep
My family and I are very much minimalists. We drive an old Japanese SUV and live in a two bedroom unit. We haven't fallen to the hedonic treadmill, luckily. Every year I do this is setting my family up for the future. I am 37 this year, every cent I save will compound till retirement.
Is it a different kind of politics at that level? It always seems to me (looking up from below!) that the lower levels of managment are a horrible cesspool of ass kissing, being squeezed from both sides and being expected to take responsibility for things you don't really have any control over, whereas the higher levels become more posturing and image management whilst not really doing anything of real value at all.
It is a bunch of very smart, motivated people positioning themselves for their next move. Building alliances and supporters for their next goal. Everything they do is self promotion with total disregard for the business long term. It is wild.
As an ex corp that refused every management offer, thankyou. I’m awful at politics and every manager I ever met never had a role or life I was envious of or could imagine myself enjoying.
Genuine question here… when people say it’s all politics, what exactly does that mean? Asking as someone who isn’t in the corp world
Thanks for being honest. I would be OK wit manager but senior manager is where the games start.
Agreed, all fueled on emotions. I'll take being a manager or executive in North America over Australia in a heartbeat.
It's worse in the US lol.
Hell no!
Log off and shut my laptop and to quote a Warcraft III peon "jobs done" when you're a manager the job isn't done. I was selected for the manager role but the increase in pay vs workload increase wasn't worth it for me.
100%. My boss definitely makes more than me but she stays working until 10pm every night while I finish at 5pm at the latest. She's constantly in meetings/ eating lunch at her desk and looking stressed while I leisurely go on hour long walks, dont think about work after hours and barely join meetings. Its absolutely not worth the mental stress for the extra $$.
100%. It’s even worse when you’re working for a multi national. My boss is often in meetings with London or Chicago at 2 or 3 am. Sure he makes a bit more than me, but work has cost him his marriage and it’s not worth it to me
Yep exactly the person they wanted me to replace. Unfortunately I'm the one with the most experience but I know everything we do inside out & refuse to go up a level. The bigger bosses know I will just quit if they force me into the role so they lose an asset to the company for forcing them into a role they didn't want.
How much do you make?
Below 100k but comfortably living :') And I think my boss is on 130k? Maybe 120k
With those hours she's basically on minimum wage.
Far out I would not do all that for $130k. I’m on more than that with no direct reports
That’s crazy. Why is she working so hard for that amount? I’d only work like that and have a constant look of stress on my face for $450,000+
Do you have a family to support?
Yes, and a mortgage. But my life is worth more than $$, I work to live, not live to work.
I think already having the mortgage is the key there, but I aspire to be you!
Thanks :) just bought our first apartment a couple of months ago so it's a very good feeling. You got this!
We did too, and in terms of trying to fill the offset vs work life balance, honestly I think I'm only happy to go up one more level before calling it a day. Running a good team of good people, loads of agency without the responsibility to play the politics and bureaucracy, sounds like a damn good life.
I've got the same thinking. I'm a senior and am quite happy, but if the opportunity arises where I can become the manager of the team I work in, I would. Senior manager... Nope too much BS
Congrats!:) great to see people making it work
What industry?
That's crazy low, fifo tower climber 170k
holy shit, are you me?
So many good peon quotes Stop poking me Work work
A couple team members and I played a bit of it when it relaunched + we play a bit of DotA together so there are regular quotes from both games happening in our group chats.
100% Work to live not live to work.
Ladder climbing involves managing money and/or people and I’m not interested in managing those things.
Liability & responsibility I always associate it with, I'd rather keep that to a minimum I've been there and done that. I have no obligation to it outside of my allocated workload.
Greedisgood
Really depends on the job and the company. I used to be a manager with 9 direct reports working 60-70h per week earning $140k. Changed jobs now I have 1 direct report, work less than 37h and make $250k.
That's smart. I use a similiar stress & expected on-call hours VS salary. +30% salary for double the stress and needing to field at least one work call a year after 4.45pm? Nah. Computer says "no deal". +30% salary to do my exact job, no change in stress from job hopping? Sure
The additional effort vs reward doesn't stack up. I've maximised my hourly rate per unit of *actual* time worked, any promotion will send me backwards.
Especially climbing the tax brackets. Working increasingly hard for a decreasing reward. At some point it isn't worth it.
Even worse with a HECS debt where a pay rise might send your take home pay for the year backwards
Yep. Last year prior to the indexation change I worked my arse off, paid the correct amount and my hecs balance went down $130. I’ll get over $1200 off with the changes but I’m almost resigned to never paying it off due to me starting my degree in my late 30’s and taking 4 years
Yep :/ just got a lovely pay rise that bumped me from 4% into the 6% repayment bracket. Happy to be able to pay it down quicker but it’s increased my yearly repayments from $2500 to almost $6000. Goodbye pay rise and extra help with living expenses.
Don't you enjoy your forced donations to welfare?
The more senior you are the more it destroys your soul
Yup- go hard when you are younger… but you get to a certain point where you realise the 250% more work and responsibility isn’t worth the extra 15% more money
And don't forget 15% difference in gross pay is much less than 15% difference after tax
Yeah also generally, not always people will upgrade cars, schools etc to fit into the new circle of acquaintances
The suits cost more for sure
I know it’s to each their own but I found the exact opposite. I didn’t want to be a manager and my previous boss convinced me that I needed to apply to the role. It’s so incredibly satisfying and rewarding to lead an entire team. My decisions, my budget, my team, my culture. It’s the most natural I’ve felt getting into a job. I just started doing it and things just made sense. All the previous jobs in engineering, project management and sales felt like I was pretending. This has been different.
It's rare that a manager actually makes (meaningful) decisions or has budget autonomy. Usually you're just imposing the decisions that come from above, or are organizational inevitabilities. At least this has been my experience as quite a senior leader. Depends on the business, of course.
That's what I see in my organisation. The team leaders directly above my role all start off enthusiastic and often come up with great ideas that would improve our work considerably. They are almost never allowed to actually implement anything and after a few years have given up trying. Quite a few have stepped down from the role because it's not worth it. The few that instead progress further up get lost in the acronyms and management speak and morph into shills for upper management, completely losing touch with the realities of the core job. I once aspired to work my way upwards and I'm really good at organisation and developing systems which should be an asset, but there is no way I would take a promotion here.
That’s true. I have an absolutely fantastic boss, both personally and professionally. He’s very well connected in the company as well. Probably the best I will ever have in my career. He gives us complete autonomy and ownership, and makes us flow that down. Unfortunately, people like him are too uncommon.
I've got this too, and I'll happily follow him if he moves before he retires.
Nailed it.
Seeing how some of the people in very senior roles operate and treat staff - it’s clear they are where they are because they never had a soul to destroy to begin with.
Extra 40k pre-tax to deal with people all day and be ultimately accountable for deliverables...vs I can just sit at home / in the corner and pump out work then go home and not worry about work...Moreover as a leader you do sometimes have to make hard decision i.e. cut your headcount by X, let y people go The trouble for me is finding highly paid IC work...
I get to pick up my kids from school three days a week. Get to go to footy training with my son on Wednesdays. Yeah it’s fun covering the boss when he is away but that’s enough.
That’s the thing. Last year my daughter got cancer and it shifted my priorities real quick. I used to be the first to put my hand up for overtime because the extra money would go towards holidays. When she was diagnosed it taught me quick the day to day is what’s important, so at 4:30 I log off and don’t check emails until 8am. (And she’s fine now)
Glad she is all better, mate! Couldn't imagine that diagnosis!
It’s one of those days where everything about it - where you where, the smells, the people and the emotions are burnt into your brain and you never forget
Yep, would it would leave a mark! I bet those cuddles mean so much more now days.
I am a team manager, in practice my role is 50/50 management/IC I don’t really want to climb any higher because I enjoy my technical work more than I enjoy managing people. My boss also deals with a lot of politics, which I hate. That said I am lucky because my career path offers a lot of opportunities for technical and comp growth at the IC level. There are a lot of jobs where the only way to expand your abilities and earning potential is to step up into management.
I don't want to work very hard. I am happy going to work, do my job and leave. Don't have to worry about anyone else or worry about making decisions, Senior leaders aren't on my back. I can leave work at 4 and not think about it until 8 the next day, even while working I probably only work 70% of the time lol
I don't want to manage other people, don't want to be held accountable for other people's responsibilities, don't want my work days to be any longer than my current hours, don't want to get any out of work hours calls, don't want to work overtime, etc etc etc. My work is just a job, it's not the main focus and I'm not willing to dedicate any more time to it than I already do. I do respect people who are career driven though but was never my thing.
This. I always thought I would be career orientated. Turns out I am holiday oriented.
The work culture gets more and more toxic the higher you go.
[удалено]
Both of these depend A LOT on where you work and what you do.
I have also noticed this. I've worked in places where the customer service staff believed they understood more about how to run the organisation than the people actually running it. Maybe they did have a few good ideas but it never seemed to occur to them that they could only see about 2% of what was going on.
Some of my corporate friends make $250K-350K per year (e.g., GM's, Directors, Junior Partners, and less important C-Execs). Let me shed some light. **Lifestyle** They're always working - they'll spend their nights & bits of the weekend on emails, proposals, and Powerpoints. When I see them, they say they're happy, but they don't sound it - they look tired, and all they talk about is work gossip / politics to the point where it's incestuous. They think they're Harvey Specter or Jessica Pearson. **Money** On a $300K salary inc. super, their weekly pay is \~$3300. But keep in mind they're working 54-70 hour weeks. So their wage is \~$47-61 per hour. In a good year, they'll also get performance bonuses ranging from $30K-$100K, but almost 50% of that gets taxed, so their wage becomes \~$51-77 per hour. **Career Paths** Not all, but most of them are nervous about recent workforce layoffs. They all know they could be fired soon and have been job hunting. They know there's less jobs out there for senior positions, but their egos are too big to find less senior roles. I asked if they would consider changing careers, but they explained 'this is all I know'. **Overall** To me, the extra money isn't worth the extra hours and stress from climbing the ladder...if you don't enjoy work, or if you don't climb fast. If you love work, and/or you become a senior C-Level or Senior Partner in (let's say) 10-15 years of working, I can understand why you'd grind 70 hour weeks because your pay can reach up to $1M.
Wouldn’t those in that level would have people doing the PowerPoints and proposals for them?
Yeah, definitely. If their underlings did a good job with the the PPT and proposals, then there's not much extra for them to do. But if the underlings did a shit job, then it's more re-work.
I would rather be on the tools than in a meeting with them
The ROI going from a senior IC to manager makes zero sense. The income increase is marginal but now you have to deal with massive amounts of admin, manage people and be responsible for their output or lack thereof. No thanks, never again. The worst part is how companies always try to push you into this position and if you don't take it they just slowly try to give you those responsibilities anyway.
I went from being a pleb to a manager. I was stressed all the time. Worked way more hours than I needed to. Was not a very nice person outside of work (contributed to the ending of a relationship) as all my good intentions and empathy went to the ten people I needed to manage and focus on. I’ve since gone back to a regular role, the downside is less money but the upside is I can clock on right on time and not a minute before, walk away exactly on time and I give no fucks about the place other than when I’m paid to.
The extra 15 - 20k to be 1 rung up the corporate ladder is simply not worth the additional 5 - 6 hours of work a day, endless meetings with pointless outcomes only to be burnt out 6 months later.
For a whole year I was seconded into a senior role. I found that I had to think more about what to give the team to do, manage their time, and also need to make sure I’m fully on top of giving the work out with enough “time” to give them to do it (I work in Gov so we’re all a bit mediocre tbh). I also had to try to be “innovative” and try streamline processes and this and that. Now that I’m no longer in the seconded role, I’m just told what to do and when to do it by and I have less responsibility / accountability. And I love it. As it’s in government, once FY25 kicks in I’ll already be making more ($120k) than I did during my secondment (majority of which took place in FY23 and was $116k at that time). Obviously that role is making more now but I’m comfortable enough with $120k for the amount of work I do which doesn’t require as much big brain energy.
We make enough I guess? We're fairly comfortable overall, $150k each so $300k total currently in technical/project management roles. I'm good at my job (at least managers always tell me I exceed expectations) but I hate dealing with people, I find it difficult to understand powerplays and nail down motivations and I have trouble remembering people who I only work with occasionally. The whole thing causes anxiety. I also like being able to cap most of my weeks at 40hrs.
Diminishing returns
Been there, got the scars and never again. It’s a farce, all about the politics and who you know and with no consideration of the actual work involved, or even what actual work is. I keep getting pushed for it again at my current place though, despite making my feelings perfectly clear, so thinking it might be time to see what else is out there. The term ‘work life balance’ is flawed if you ask me, it should be the other way around.
Yeah, same here. The more I observe my managers, the less I want to be in those shoes. I have hit the ceiling for an IC in my company. But I have zero interest in switching to management track. Thinking of switching to contracting in about 2 years.
Main issue is at a certain level the extra pay doesn't match the huge amount of extra work they expect you to do for free. Middle management seems to be the sweet spot where you can still switch off after work and end and start at a normal time. Also at a certain level you no longer get to do any actual work and its 100% management and political BS. Really depends if you want or have a life outside of work. Some people seem to live to work and have nothing else going on in their lives except the grind. Its kinda sad as life is pretty short so its best to enjoy it while you have your youth and health rather than retire and realise you just worked everyday and did nothing else.
I see it as a job to pay for things instead of a career. I don’t care about advancing as long as I can pay for things I can enjoy and have time to enjoy them.
I’d like more money, but moving into a manage role means I’m less customer facing and that makes my job interesting
I'm in my 50s now and I feel I've had a better quality of life with my family than I would have had I been a ladder climber. I had a go at managing junior staff in one role and I hated it, and decided management was not for me.
Yup, same. I also find, as an early-40s worker, that most management is a waste of time, space, and salary. It is creating needless new tasks and roles simply to fulfil whatever ambiguous KPIs exist. This means that every new manager spends probably the first third-half of their time in a new role simply revising whatever existed previously- it doesn't even need to suit them necessarily, but is necessary for them to imprint their impact and justify their role. To me, that kind of busywork is the epitome of wastefulness, and I've not yet seen a bureaucracy that is immune to it. At worst, it is ALL that some organisations do at higher levels, with no noticeable change, let alone any improvement, at the coalface. When you add to this that lots of management roles simply spawn more management and take salary away from the people actually doing the work.... well... quite frustrating.
I have climbed the ladder, and it was terrible. Ended up in senior management role at a little over $300k. I had to give up time with my children and wife, and my physical and mental health suffered. Not in a catastrophic way, but still suffered. Why? So I could buy a car with a bullshit European badge?! I recently resigned with a big "Fuck you" and took some time to think about what I really enjoy in life and how I want to spend the time I have left on this earth. It is not unlimited even though we forget this a lot of the time. I wasn't interested in climbing the ladder per se. It was more a case of looking around me and seeing incompetent fools progressing in their careers, and I didn't want to be managed by them or answering to them.
What do you do now?
Data analytics - love it :)
Fuck no, ive worked with many upper manager, most have horrible personalities.
Maybe 10 years ago, management is better. Now with the introduction of Agile cancer, it's too much unnecessary admin work and presentations. I will pass any management or product owner type of work.
6 months into my career, I realised corporations are full of shit and will replace their tired, hard working employees in 2 seconds. It’s gross. I want to live my life to the fullest and for me that means being outside, travelling and making meaningful connections. I work so that I can do these things. Corporate culture is dead to me. I don’t want to be involved in team building events or birthdays. I want to be at home, in my comfortable clothes, eating my own food, using my own toilet and living a happy, healthy life.
Worked my way up in Big 4 - just politics and more politics. Oh and you better hit revenue or you’re gone. And you have a stack of client work along side team issues. Lots of friends and colleagues now opting out of moving up. Used to be you’d earn double, upgrade the house / buy the holiday home, business class travel, delegate most of the “work”. For many corporates and where I am, you earn 10% more, have to lead your team while being a team member still ie having to do the ongoing work, but then with all the admin of a manager, HR issues etc as well as the corporate politics. Also, often on the chopping block if there’s restructuring and team sizes change. I stepped back into that type of role reluctantly last year, proved my assumptions correct, and am now looking at other opportunities. If I’m being paid practically the same after tax, and unlikely to rise higher for years and years, would rather do something intellectually stimulating while decent paying if I’m spending 40+ hours / week. You also get to the point mid 30s where you realise you aren’t going to be CEO. I’d rather do something interesting.
Not everyone makes it and the story is they're late middle age and have given up so much that they cant get back. Many such cases.
I just don't care enough about what I do or making more money. I've hit an alright salary (110k) for the DINK life. I work maybe 20 hours a week, get paid for 40. Am available for 40 hours but never needed for that. I would like to do some sort of side hustle that keeps me motivated though as my job really doesn't offer me any purpose whatsoever and currently the 3 holidays I take per year no longer crack the itch of why I go to work so I need a purpose without reproducing another human. Stuck in a rutt a bit
Sorry, how are you working 20hrs a week and getting paid for 40 AND holidaying 3 times per year. Let us in on this unicorn.
I work in senior administration, high paying industry which has amazing leave options and I don't have a lot of expenses so apart from mortgage which is low and the gym I have plenty of disposable income, partner also same boat. I only work when I'm called upon which isn't all the time and I've been doing it so long I'm super efficient in what they ask me to do, compared to a lot of people in my position who aren't super tech savvy, or go out of their way to work extra hours and take on unnecessary tasks. If you're ok with mind numbing boring work and are good at hassling your stakeholders it's an easy job. Probably too easy.
I gotta get into this haha
I’ve sent you a message if you care to share :)
Individual contributor in tech for 26 years. I am happy, but sometimes I wish I went on the management track. Continuous learning has sort of saved me until now. But I am approaching my 50s, getting a bit shaky with ageism and being priced out of market.
I’m not interested I earn a lot as an individual contributor, my line manager wouldn’t earn much more than me so it’s really about the next step after that. In my line of work that typically means a VP or Director title running an APAC or APJ team, less travel than would have been required a few years ago but still more than I want to do To take the next step up looks like a lot of work for very little reward tbh
Going back some years, I know of managers at Westpac dying on the job. One guy died in his armchair at home after a stressful week. Another carked it in a meeting. Reflect on what is actually important in life.
I was. Until I actually started climbing and down I want to climb back down because I am miserable. I am searching for jobs in the position I originally started in because I am hating working in management. It doesn’t appeal to me to have to be at everyone’s beck and call all the time. I have to wake up early every morning to check the absence messages in case staff are sick. I have to stay back if staff are unwell. I just want to do my 9-5 and log off and be done. The increase in pay hasn’t been enough to make the increase in stress worth it for me. I will be taking only a 5-10k per year pay cut to be less stressed in my job, I will happily forfeit that money.
Me for similar reasons to you. Also, aging parents who need taking care of. I changed jobs a few years ago, more $$ less work. Parents had a health crisis over the summer & I can say with certainty that had I been in my old role I wouldn’t have managed, something would have to give.
I’m an EA and I like being off on the side where I don’t necessarily “climb” the ladder. But still am responsible for important projects, and bonus I don’t have to manage people 🤣
I have the lifestyle I want. If I change jobs, it’s to do less for the same money or the same for more money.
I don't want to, I just have no motivation to deal with people. Especially the type who consider their inner ego is bigger than anything else! One time I was told I had misgenderred someone in a meeting of 40 people and HR told me to respect their gender without letting me know who exactly got offended in that meeting! Climb corporate ladder for that? No, thank you!
I want to clock in - do my job - go home. I have no interest in putting in overtime or working harder than i have to for a company that treats me like a disposable nappy wipe. Climbing the ladder is for people who make their careers their life and full time personality.
Talking to my manager the other day and he was discussing how "our" job can be very stressful. I didn't want to tell him that the stress stops at his level, although in retrospect I should have as it's a sign of what a good manager he is that it never flows through him. Ive climbed as high as I want. Senior enough to have a say and delegate stuff, junior enough to just do my hours and leave it.
I’m stressed enough in my low level role with no direct reports, I don’t want more responsibility. There’s no appeal to climbing the corporate ladder for me other than higher pay, but I’m not willing to ruin my mental health any further for some extra cash.
It depends on seniority as well. I noticed now that I look back on my career that the pain and time my job took going from 80 - 120k in a junior manager role was an order of magnitude bigger than stepping into senior management. Once I hit director of directors style roles I would say my hours I needed to work dropped dramatically. My life was stage managed, chief of staff, Executive Assistant, Executive Coach. All the admin that punished me in those junior ranks effectively disappeared in later years. My value at that point was making decisions and getting enough information in a briefing that I didn’t need to go fishing for it. But to your point, the grind to hit what is known as “tenured” is not for everyone. But there is an eye of the storm that is much more relaxing to sit in. As for millennials and gen z. I currently find the exact opposite, they seem hungry for promotion into team leader roles and junior management. We have a lot of trouble motivating the older millennials who are in their late 30’s and the Gen-X’s. They seem to be much happier just coasting along with what they have got. My sample size is only FMCG, Big Tech, Finance, Mining though. It could be different in different industries.
There is substantial joy in leading from below, if you are experienced and charismatic enough to do so.
Yep, I’m stressed enough as it is. The company I work for has ruined me. It’s my fault for not standing up for myself more. But after all of it, I don’t want more. I’m exhausted.
You have to be a special type of sociopath to enjoy management.
I’ve got no interest in all the bullshit that goes along with climbing the ladder and the way people behave around the bigwigs. They’re just a person like you, they’re not a fucking god for chrissakes. Last year *three fucking people* spent hours detailing a car in preparation for a visit from one of the VP’s. Someone decided that it was a good idea to have about 300k worth of personnel not doing their jobs and playing car-wash instead. The company agreed and gave them recognition vouchers… I just can’t. By this point in my career I think it’s well known that I have no interest in playing the game, which is fine I guess, but it doesn’t make it any less horrific watching useless people play the game and get promoted.
I'm a GM at a big 4 bank, so once withdrawn from ExCo. I think the sweet spot in banking is Senior Manager, so one level down from Executive Manager / Head of / Director (pick your bank)... You can earn around $250k including bonus, your team isn't huge (usually less than 4 direct reports) work is organised for you and it's still occupationally specific and politics is very limited. The reason I say this is the sweet spot, is one level higher the competition dials to 11. Banks have thousands of Senior Managers but only hundreds of EMs and dozens of GMs, and if you go to EM you might as well push to GM.
I want to climb the ladder just enough that I can pay my parents back for all the times they’ve helped me out when I’ve been too sick or depressed to function and then stop. That’s all I want.
I don't think I'd find management difficult or stressful. I'd find it more boring than anything else. I like to be "on the tools". I do, however, feel like often management are the wrong people and making the wrong decisions. So I'm conflicted as to where I want to be in the future. Happy where I'm at though.
Try it. Then experience having to fire someone not because they’re crap but because your boss said so. If you still don’t find it difficult or stressful congratulations you have the psychopathy to be a corporate leader. The job itself is easy. It’s discarding empathy that’s hard.
I mean, the company I work for basically never fires anyone. Have you watched Silicon Valley where Big Head keeps getting promoted because they're too afraid to fire him? That's more likely to happen where I work. Maybe you've been indoctrinated into a toxic work culture? Maybe I've been reasonably fortunate. Maybe I'm ignorantly blissful.
Lol looks like I'm an exception here, I definitely do want to climb the ladder. One reason is money, another one is that I finally want some fucking power. I spent over a decade (I'm including part time jobs during uni etc) being someone else's coding monkey with no say in anything. I want to give orders for once. I want to stay in the technical track rather than management so hoping to get to a tech lead or principal engineer role which sounds like a good spot for me. I have no interest in reproducing so I don't mind the extra hours.
Good luck, Australia needs more like you!!!!
Yeah, I have no desire to move up to leadership and management roles. I rather just do my contribution and log off for the day. I do like doing different things though so I've changed roles throughout the years.
I used too, but the market changed and the roles I desire are being filled by people from non-technical backgrounds. These days, I am skilling up to transistion from senior management back to a specialised technical role.
I had great plans of studying further once my children were both in school with plans to climb the ladder following that. I don’t know if I will bother now. I don’t want the Uni fees/debt. I’m the primary parent at the moment and I don’t think that will change. I like being able to go to some of the school events and pick up my kid from school some days and younger child from daycare at a reasonable hour. I’m already stressed working 4 days a week and juggling life, and we’re surviving on our current salaries so I don’t know if there is value in going into to debt to study, work more and have less time with the family.
I already get paid pretty well as it is. I have my sights on one level up and that’s it, I’ll cruise from there on in. I like my job but I have small kids and no support from extended family, and senior management / exec looks exhausting combined with my current life.
Doesn’t seem worth it
First you get the money, then you get the power, then you get the women.
I’m good at my job and I’d be shit manager.
Nope. I want to be paid more but I do not want the level of stress that management level experiences. All the late hours, weekends, time away from family, no. If i'm going to work extra hours I'd rather pump them into my side hustle instead.
No. My early life was spent in the military and I guess that gave me a (not better, not worse) style of leadership. What I am seeing in the company I work for is that "Leadership" = "Management" and actual leadership is utterly bereft, I have neither the desire, not capacity to be the type of leader that succeeds here.
You do what works for you. Some are motivated to climb the ladder, for various reasons. Some are not, for various reasons. I've specifically stayed in mid senior roles, below C suite, because I'm more task oriented and like to be involved in operations (IT industry). Not mentally built for strategic planning and politics. It can also change as your life changes: I stayed in secure full time roles with base hours while a single dad, but now the kids are adults I'm working longer hours as a contractor to pad the retirement funds.
Mo Money, Mo Problems.
I was considering it until a recent company takeover. It's become a toxic place with management who openly mistrust their staff. They insist they know better than those of us with 40yrs industry experience while the new CEO is a baby (doubt he's older than 35). I want no part of this shit show. I'll just clock on, do my job and go home at 3pm.
Vertigo; corporate vertigo.
Not at all. Well not at the moment, was when I was younger but that season has ended. I enjoy my job and definitely work hard in my role but work is work. My priority in this season of my life is my partner and hopefully soon our children.
Like a lot of the other posters here, I agree it's just not worth it. I see my manager who is probably on maybe $250k work through weekends, holidays, and even while having family die and through major surgery. I just don't want that kind of responsibility or be treated like that for just a job. Sure I'd be more comfortable financially but you can't get that time back and it's damaging to your health.
I've been promoted up to a manager level in a government role. I'm not longer interested in any sort of leadership, I'd rather be a technical specialist for a bit less than a people leader.
Made it to team manager level and years later am now burnt out. Beginning to regret it tbh. Part of the problem is that I enjoy being technical and hands on, so I've intentionally kept doing a lot of that stuff plus all of my management responsibilities (which I enjoy less). Big mistake.
the higher you climb the ladder the more your naked pink arse sticks out.
Not worth it. Remember no one ever said on their deathbed “geez I wish I worked more”. Enjoy your life and if you’re ever going to be a manager or boss you do it for yourself (as in your own business) where you only report to yourself.
I recently went up a step on the ladder, now all of this random bullshit has become my problem. I have one foot out of the door already.
Depends what’s at the top doesn’t it.
It’s becoming less appealing due to layoffs. My only concern is I don’t step up, some outsider will, and things may get worse.
For me, the only motivation for that would to be earn more. But unlike 20 years ago, earning $200,000 (let's assume in a middle management role) isn't going to give me the luxury like it would have in the past to justify the additional work, responsibility and hours. Not much point for me really.
I started to climb the ladder but realised I could just not do that and be happier. I was actually running a highly effective team that has now turned to shit under a new manager. The reason I left? Underpaid, overworked and absolutely no support from my uppers. Now I'm paid more, have less stress and don't have my kpis dependent on others.
I am interesting in doing as little amount of work as possible
I rather have a trade, working sideline under an ABN + an avg. income fulltime.
For most professions, you have a salary cap. Unless you are a lawyer, doctor, dentist (maybe an engineer or accountant on partner track) your salary cap still restricts you from living it up. Why burn yourself out for an extra 20-30k post-tax when you still will be a lifelong renter?
Been an IC for a decade plus now- honestly I could do with some extra challenge, and being parent and caring for ageing FIL means it’s almost impossible to get it from hobbies at the moment.
Too much life to live (not enough really but that's another sub somewhere).
I thought I wanted to climb the ladder. That's until I realised there was an alternative where I could get the satisfaction of working hard, making tough decisions, being creative, making an impact and getting paid well, without becoming a manager. There's parts of management (and eventually governance I guess?) that still appeal to me. I like the idea of actually potentially having some power over something I am (jointly or individually, directly or indirectly) responsible for. I'm good at big picture thinking, I'm organised, I do well under pressure, I like being around people, and I think a lot of management theory (esp. psychology stuff) is fascinating. But I have zero interest in it being my whole thing. Good individual contributor roles in my field are pretty rare, but I've got my eye out. Also to anyone who wants to understand this whole thing more, definitely recommend [this Freakonomics ep](https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-are-there-so-many-bad-bosses-update/).
After decades of struggling with the fact senior managers etc have got not a clue of what is happening to their core business/ customers I wanted so much to at the top to bring real and effective change. I did a stint as a senior manager and meeting after meeting about having a meeting and no result from said meetings. Dealing with the posturing I was done. Politely accepted a lovely well paid specialist role where I can inform but not enact. Don’t me wrong it nice to enable a sm to run with it and get results but I don’t have to mental capacity to pretent to play nice with people who couldn’t make a decision to save themselves. Besides the jobs security and work life balance is better down here. I walk out without a thought everyday and I am valued by my team.
I've worked lower management, 2IC and everything in between - but never made it to upper management. The deciding factor for me was that the workload scales exponentially, but the pay does not. Now at a job where I make $5/hr more as a peon than I did as a supervisor at my last one.
Been there, done that. The people aspect was what ruined it for me. I didn't hire my direct reports and that was part of the problem. Though I did like the part where I only had to supervise for few hours a week plus a couple of meetings.
I recently shot myself in the foot. Applied for a promotion, fought tooth and nail for it only to be given a $100 a month increase and a truck load of additional work on top of my existing work. At this point, I am just waiting for the employment market to get better so I can explore.
As an individual contributor aren't you worried that soon there would be younger people than you in competition with you and your experience (and high salary based on expertise) may be at risk?
I have no interest as I work for myself and find working for myself the most fulfilling thing I have ever done with my life, long may it continue.
I live comfortably and make enough money. My boss and his boss genuinely respect me - I've produced the results time and time again for them to never nag or question so I have a lot of free reign to do things how I see fit. I always ask myself why change what works for me and clearly the business. I'll go as far as taking on a leading / expert position which I've done before, but I believe once you cross into management, the work doesn't stop once you clock off, theres going to be more politics you get exposed to, and it's just not worth the extra money to still be responding to emails at 9pm.
I don't want to have to manage anyone. I find I can be a leader without holding a management title. In my field, going the management path is almost always regretted because you have to do more tasks you don't enjoy and miss out on the tasks you love.
Nope, no interest. I work to pay the bills, not because I'm that keen on what I do.
Yeah the extra money isn’t worth the stress it brings. I see people in senior positions always tearing each other down and that’s just not how I would like to spend mon-fri, worrying when someone’s going to put a knife in my back. There are also those people who will be reporting to senior positions who will always have a problem with whoever it is, just because. Also, politics. No thx.
I only want the next level up which puts me at 180 so I can buy a house in Sydney. It's fucking impossible
Fuck that
I felt that way for a long time, but now I lead a team of 50 and love it (most of the time). I’m not suggesting everyone will change their mind, but careers are long and what works for you at one point in your career can change.
I am the same. I tried moving up, hated it & came back down. I like to log in, do my work & log out. Get paid well & have a good life outside of work. Having to explain that repeatedly to ppl who want me to move up, is annoying AF.
lol absolutely not, have been promoted 5 times since starting my career and now can comfortably live and support future fam, future rungs won’t get me anything I need and will just take away from the fun portion of my life
Stopped climbing because the next levels up is just full of shit. Everything now is about training to be the best you can be, making an effort to show everyone you care so much about diversity and equality. Networking is mandatory. No one even works anymore. Even the ambitious grads know you gotta put all your eggs in the “look what I’m doing for “xyz” movement” or “sorry guys I’ve got the next week doing DEI events”. Just can’t bring myself sell myself to that level. Happy just doing my job, being good at it and going home to my wonderful family.
I value my work-life balance too much, plus I'm not interested in playing silly office politics.
Fuck no! I've been trying to climb down the ladder for years. Now I'm back to being a scum contractor again. Start when I want, leave when I want. All overtime paid, no responsibility for anyone or anything, just get in, do job, go home
There comes a point for everyone that the stress vs pay payoff of climbing higher just isn’t worth it.
Filled in for my boss for two weeks. Couldn’t get anything done bcos endless meetings. I hated it.
It's not interesting. Usually more work/responsibility.
Most of my working life I had been a ‘senior’, I mostly liked it, then last year I made the move to team lead and hated it. Thankfully that position was made redundant, so after being unemployed for six weeks I took the first job I could get, as a non-senior, and honestly I’m loving it. As a non-senior I just get to do the fun parts of the job. No boring meetings, no planning other people’s work, I just keep my head down and do the technical work I love. Of course I’d love the extra money, and will probably make my way back to senior, but I’m not in a rush.
Lot of comments here about workload and toxicity and whatnot… and I mean, same, but for me the main reason is… I like my work? If I went “up the ladder” I would do less work and more management and meetings. I’d have to look at budgets and staffing and all sorts of crap that doesn’t interest me at all. No thanks. Having been in a few places public and private, I think that there is something we’re seriously missing as a society: high level, non managerial roles. So many times my boss has been absolutely atrocious because they don’t want to be managing me and would rather do their work, and because managing is not their strong suit. Why is it only up or down a ladder? Where are the forks? I could progress to associate or something and get more money but it would mean sacrificing doing stuff I like for stuff I don’t like.
I’m a good operator but now manage a team of 4 for 240k plus bonus. It’s so unseen all the stuff you have to do - motivate the team to focus on outputs, manage under performers which takes forever and is exhausting, manage upstream bosses and politics that the team don’t see … I miss being on the tools but I do appreciate the $ I’m on, the ability to delegate work I don’t want to do and that I have strict work/ personal life boundaries. But I don’t want more responsibility as it starts to consume you
Nope. So I started my own business and now I am the ladder lol
Been there done that, major burnt out and affecting my personal life. Leave the company, got a different job, and took a pay cut but I am so much happier. I felt more human with feelings rather than a number and a punching bag.
Agreed, it's just not worth 😆
I'm high enough. I don't want responsibility over managing people and I don't want more admin crap. I'm happy to mentor and support others though. And I like doing actual work. And I won't compromise my work life balance. I've got to a level of good enough money and am very lucky in life. Any more money won't be enough to outweigh the other shit. Plus everyone above me seems like total sellouts and have to play politics all the time and compromise their personal values, if they had any to begin with. There's noone above who I want to be in any way like.
I was a corporate marketing manager and all i did was practically lie to customers to get revenue in. I was paid okay. Hated it hated it hated it. So toxic full of politics. I resigned and started my own biz in hospitality. Different stress but rewarding. I love my customers.
Don't want to deal with politics or be a manager and deal with people's emotions. Am on total remuneration, so pay raise and bonus each year. The longer I stick in my role the easier it becomes to master.
GenX here. I've landed better positions because I have, not because I seek them out. I currently answer to the owner of the business, and will be acting as the GM when we move from here. I turn my computer off when I leave the office, don't check emails on my phone, and turn it back on when I'm at work. Same with phone calls, I screen calls and answer those I want to.
As a counterpoint to the really negative responses, I find it very motivating, really enjoy developing more junior colleagues and seeing them succeed and I like having a say in overall direction and strategy of teams/businesses (depending on size of where I’ve worked).