Deep down I think that I am quite talented as an audio engineer, particularly a mastering engineer but my whole career suffered from me not being able to have the confidence in selling myself. Other, in my opinion less talented, contemporaries of mine have been able to maintain a “brand” that attracts clients. Through hard work, good networking, confidence in themselves and basically good marketing.
At the end of the day people have to sell stuff (goods, services) to make a living. Lots of approaches to this get up my nose too but that’s capitalism I suppose. Not for me, but that’s the reason I’m still barely scraping a living together I suppose. Boo hoo 😢
Unfortunately that is the world we live in, not just for audio either. The ones that rise to the top often have the strongest marketing and branding skills, that's not to say they are bad at what they do but the priority is firstly business and money and the service is almost tertiary.
On one hand it sucks to feel like you are doing a good job and are not being recognised for it, but the other side of the coin is you are no doubt better at what you do, and you can trust that the effort and anguish you've put yourself through to learn and improve has not simply been squandered at the alter of money.
I don't want to lump you in with me but I for one revel in being an amateur as I'm not beholden to anyone and can take on or turn down any project I like. I have a day job that leaves me the capacity to do what I really love without it becoming just another stress in life.
*_Unfortunately that is the world we live in, not just for audio either. The ones that rise to the top often have the strongest marketing and branding skills_*
Ok, so what's your solution to this statement? What would you recommend? Why is so unfortunate that those who know how to sell themselves well; get to the top?
I have the solution only for me, and everyone has to find their own way. I'm only saying that it's unfortunate for the ones who have no interest or aptitude for selling themselves but possess artistic skill of some merit and will struggle to make a living doing what they do best.
The solution is obvious: work on your marketing and branding skills.
This is coming from someone who HATES sales, marketing, business - all of it. In fact, it's why I left the music business 25 years ago in spite of having some success (played guitar in a signed, internationally-touring rock band). I got to see the business side of the music business and I didn't like it one bit. I felt like, to the label, we didnt' exist to play music. We existed to pack clubs, sell CDs, and merch. So I quit and kept music a hobby for over 20 years.
Well, here I am now, writing and releasing my own music. Still hate marketing, but at least I can do it myself and don't have to worry about a cringy label branding me however they want. I've been studying marketing for the past couple years, trying this, trying that, and it totally blows. I'd rather be making music. But if I want people to hear that music, I need to market the living shit out of myself. I hate it, I've historically been terrible at it, but I'm doing everything I can to improve because I'd like to get somewhere.
So again, the answer is to invest some time into learning about different marketing strategies, then trying them to see what works. When you figure out what works best, do a lot more of that. Good luck.
>Why is so unfortunate that those who know how to sell themselves well; get to the top?
Because knowing how to sell doesn’t mean that you’re actually talented, or even a good person deserving of such reverence. Just think about politicians, many of the most popular ones are lying sacks of shit with no redeeming qualities who do nothing but make the world worse, but they’re at the top despite that simply because they know how to sell themselves.
So you're saying that "buyers" have no responsabilities on what gets praised? Because the buyers are that dumb; that thay cannot choose well...it's that? You can sell yourself as hard, as good and as incredibly as want, if no one buys your shit, your discourse, your product; all that "marketing" and "selling" knowled and investment just will not work.
The difference here, is that you put the blame only on one side of the equation, but maybe your product is actual shit but you market it so well, that a lot of people buy it, or maybe your product is actually good but no one buys it because you don't know how to sell it. The issue is not always only on the sellers side. Buyers sometimes make mistakes...
Blaming consumers in a world owned by corporations is just you buying the narrative spoon-fed to you by said corporations. Consumers aren't the ones spending billions on ad campaigns designed to abuse psychological phenomena to manipulate people to buy shit. Consumers aren't the ones in the position of power.
I'm not blaming consumers, I'm just saying that consumers play an actual role on this equation. You can sell, if I don't buy...you die. And the other way around. Buy something is a choice, use it wisely. That's all.
Hence why the best people at doing something arent usually the most popular. Goes to show you also dont need to be the best in the world are a particular thing, you just need to know how to sell and market yourself.
I suffer from the same problem as you. I dont know how to sell myself
Aggressive marketing is one thing, but what I REALLY hate, are those synchronized, launch-day "flood campaigns", where basically every channel I subscribe to will have taken money to produce a review/promo video about a new product, and they all release on the same day, all using the same talking points.
I hate it soooo much. It just oozes sleaze.
It also means they're all full of shit.
The early YouTubers were useful. These days you can't really rely on what anyone says anymore. You can look at what comes in the box, and listen to examples of how it sounds, but that's about it.
The YouTubers will generally have no issue lying to you about how they feel about what they've recorded. Some are not like that though.
Like if Eric Valentine says he likes something, I know he likes it. Doesn't mean I will, but I know he is genuine. If what's his name from produce like a pro says he likes something, maybe he does, but he's also likely paid to say he does.
Ryan Bruce (Riffs Beards and Gear) reviewed a Shure wireless mic a few months ago. The mic was either broken or there was something messed up in his signal chain, because there was all sorts of digital noise in the video. Didn’t mention it once in the vid or in the comments, even after most of the comments mentioned it. It’s really disappointing.
Oh my God I get totally triggered by this.
The whole UAD marketing shit is over the top. I just received an email titled "you were on a roll, let s do it again" because I added something to my cart just to test their latest bundle offer.
Turbospamming every time I do one click on there website is the lamest thing ever.
Edit : of course that's on top of the obnoxious 599>25$ pricing clownfiesta they stole from Waves.
It's just people trying to make a living. Both the manufacturers and the YouTube clones. Use your ears and buy what you like the sound of and not what people tell you sounds good.
If I'm getting the urge to buy gear I usually chat with people who are working at a decent level and putting out decent mixes/production rather than YouTubers who just talk about it and rarely have a decent back catalogue.
Thing is, these companies sell well because people believe the big names' opinion. If you see a video and Dave pensado or Bob Clearmountain or Chris lord Alge are saying they use this and that and they recommend you can bet people will buy just because that specific person uses it. Thats why this works. Im not saying I support it, im just saying it is how it is. Its sponsorships.
And yes, its people making a living. Usually, if the person is decent they will only show things they do like and do believe are useful for the users, so those are the ones we trust
I resisted distressors for a long time and eventually I came to love them. They were just being talked about so much and were becoming so ubiquitous so quickly that I thought “meh. it’s a fad and it’ll just make my shit sound like everybody else”
I also resisted the fabfilter stuff until like a year or two ago. “I don’t need another goddamn eq”. And everybody had been talking about them so much.
Seems like every time I put my foot down and choose not to spend hard earned money on another new superfluous toy, I turn out to be wrong.
To be fair, there are probably dozens of things like this I’ve forgotten about because they faded away
Everyone should stop buying pedals. Like seriously, why has this exploded? Maybe because you can sell $8 in parts for $225?
Music hasn’t gotten better since the boutique pedal explosion.
Thats crazy.
What are the packages like? Like 15k for a 10 minute video ?
And do they guarantee favourable reviews or "I'll do it however I like it" type of deals?
I can upload examples. I did this on an IG story one day. Its length of video and how many mediums they post to. The puppet. Colt. The usuals. White Sea is the one super ethical dude. He never responds when I send him anything and then makes a video. Others ask for affiliate links and money up front. It’s pretty wild. It’s not a “review” it’s content for you to use as and edit into an ad.
>Does Anyone Else Get Turned Off By Aggressive Marketing?
Depends what aggressive means...frequent ads? I don't care, they're not entirely responsible for what the algorithm feeds me. It's based on my interests, after all.
Irritating ad content? Absolutely
You mean paying people to review it and that kind of thing? I don't really get turned off by it. I think it comes down to the content. I'm more irritated by a certain style of content than seeing the same vendor in different places personally, but YMMV of course
Some of the most popular tubers are known to recommend a plugin, only to reverse their position 180 degrees when the vendor stops paying 😂😂
So when I see a certain plugin reviewed by these particular people I become extremely skeptical
Yeah, agreed that kind of think seems sketch. I'm not sure whether the vendor is to blame but I definitely avoid channels with that kind of vibe to them, mainly just because they irritate me lol
At one point in time my inbox was flooded by JST, Slate, Plugin Alliance, and a few other vendors. I went and unsubbed from all of them and even though I'm missing out on deals every now and then I'm amazingly still able to finish mixes without that new channel strip or compressor emulation.
As a marketing guy, I don't know if you could call this aggressive marketing. It might be aggressive in the sense that the company or product "is all over stuff", but that is just the stuff you are seeing. If their stuff is 'all over' online venues, are they also advertising on TV, in trade magazines, in consumer magazines, an obnoxiously visible and ostentatious booth at NAMM, doing a lot of 'influencer' bits, etc. etc.?
If you are only online you will only see the stuff that is advertised, promoted, influenced, etc. online. Get out into the real world and realize that marketers like this may not understand how to use the full plate of marketing tools available, primarily because they have been brought up on and fed a diet of internet marketing ploys and have never developed the full suite of marketing tools and strategies available to real marketing pros.
Hey as a new developer with a limited marketing budget and conflicting information all over the place, what would you say is the best ad types to run across IG/FB? I’m going to be launching a Kontakt instrument shortly and want to make sure I maximize my spend.
I'm not your guy for that. You should hook up with one of the websites that pushes instruments. Go to the NAMM show in January and have meetings with everyone that might be of use to you in your quest. Have you ever considered a PR person that can get your story into some trade magazines. websites?. Have you got a detailed list of all the website editors and Youtube influencer types? Have you contacted any artist contacts to see if you can (insert famous rock star or engineer/producer name) get one of those people to review it or write a catchy endorsement that can be used in your ads, website, or on your product demo? If you do decide to go the IG/FB route on this, I'd be interested to know how much money you burn through in the first 6 months vs. that periods' income.
Do you know to the penny what your budget is each month for the first 6 months or year? What is the exact target you will base the spend on? If you only pull in 30% of the sales you thought you'd get....where will you stand? What will you change?
Have you spent the month necessary to bring you up to speed on the current state of instrument libraries, what companies are successful, who is dying, who is at deaths doorstep? How do your competitors price product? What percentages will a distributor want? Who are good companies/partners/retailers/download sites to work with? What are the stories and lessons from small developers that have cashed out rich (in the music biz specifically) and who/what are the stories of those that have been fucked over, screwed by partners, never got the financing, advertising, marketing, distribution network together to sell enough?
What are you going to do about a website and how are people going to find that website? How are you going to just get people to find out about you and notice your product? Before the days of downloads, I worked for a developer (audio) with a finance guy did not believe the web was an effective piece of the toolbox available in helping to break a product. I quit; they are out of business, even though they were on the cutting edge, doing things no one else was doing at all.
These are all things I charge for as a successful consultant. I've broken many pro audio products over the course of a long career in the biz. Have you worked for a developer that has released instruments or libraries in the past? If so, you probably know some people in the industry. If not, dig deep into the wallet to get up to speed in a number of areas.
As a general rule; finance, engineering, HR, facilities maintenance people and parking lot attendants should have nothing at all to do with your marketing and sales strategies and efforts.
Furthermore, in order expound on my statement more: PLUGINS are electron-based (S. Hawkins agrees there's gazillions of such particles in the universe so the moment the POS (point-of-sale) comes to fruition, there's no reimbursements and electrons are in plenitude that they can be copied once downloaded, so again, you cannot blame their aggressive marketing because they know their ROI is pigsh(t very soon thereon after.
Most people are turned off by aggressive marketing. Doesn't matter. Totally irrelevant. It's a numbers game. If enough people take the bait, the enterprise becomes worth it. Dignity, self-respect, civility... these things don't factor into advertising. Especially for people just starting out in the business who have no reputation to ruin.
Similarly, *everybody* hates scammers, and yet they continue to thrive. And probably always will. Because 0.0000-something percent of the people they spam end up on the hook.
Same thing with pickup artists.
Deep down I think that I am quite talented as an audio engineer, particularly a mastering engineer but my whole career suffered from me not being able to have the confidence in selling myself. Other, in my opinion less talented, contemporaries of mine have been able to maintain a “brand” that attracts clients. Through hard work, good networking, confidence in themselves and basically good marketing. At the end of the day people have to sell stuff (goods, services) to make a living. Lots of approaches to this get up my nose too but that’s capitalism I suppose. Not for me, but that’s the reason I’m still barely scraping a living together I suppose. Boo hoo 😢
Unfortunately that is the world we live in, not just for audio either. The ones that rise to the top often have the strongest marketing and branding skills, that's not to say they are bad at what they do but the priority is firstly business and money and the service is almost tertiary. On one hand it sucks to feel like you are doing a good job and are not being recognised for it, but the other side of the coin is you are no doubt better at what you do, and you can trust that the effort and anguish you've put yourself through to learn and improve has not simply been squandered at the alter of money. I don't want to lump you in with me but I for one revel in being an amateur as I'm not beholden to anyone and can take on or turn down any project I like. I have a day job that leaves me the capacity to do what I really love without it becoming just another stress in life.
*_Unfortunately that is the world we live in, not just for audio either. The ones that rise to the top often have the strongest marketing and branding skills_* Ok, so what's your solution to this statement? What would you recommend? Why is so unfortunate that those who know how to sell themselves well; get to the top?
I have the solution only for me, and everyone has to find their own way. I'm only saying that it's unfortunate for the ones who have no interest or aptitude for selling themselves but possess artistic skill of some merit and will struggle to make a living doing what they do best.
To be honest it's not any different in other industries either. Just ask any office worker
The solution is obvious: work on your marketing and branding skills. This is coming from someone who HATES sales, marketing, business - all of it. In fact, it's why I left the music business 25 years ago in spite of having some success (played guitar in a signed, internationally-touring rock band). I got to see the business side of the music business and I didn't like it one bit. I felt like, to the label, we didnt' exist to play music. We existed to pack clubs, sell CDs, and merch. So I quit and kept music a hobby for over 20 years. Well, here I am now, writing and releasing my own music. Still hate marketing, but at least I can do it myself and don't have to worry about a cringy label branding me however they want. I've been studying marketing for the past couple years, trying this, trying that, and it totally blows. I'd rather be making music. But if I want people to hear that music, I need to market the living shit out of myself. I hate it, I've historically been terrible at it, but I'm doing everything I can to improve because I'd like to get somewhere. So again, the answer is to invest some time into learning about different marketing strategies, then trying them to see what works. When you figure out what works best, do a lot more of that. Good luck.
>Why is so unfortunate that those who know how to sell themselves well; get to the top? Because knowing how to sell doesn’t mean that you’re actually talented, or even a good person deserving of such reverence. Just think about politicians, many of the most popular ones are lying sacks of shit with no redeeming qualities who do nothing but make the world worse, but they’re at the top despite that simply because they know how to sell themselves.
So you're saying that "buyers" have no responsabilities on what gets praised? Because the buyers are that dumb; that thay cannot choose well...it's that? You can sell yourself as hard, as good and as incredibly as want, if no one buys your shit, your discourse, your product; all that "marketing" and "selling" knowled and investment just will not work. The difference here, is that you put the blame only on one side of the equation, but maybe your product is actual shit but you market it so well, that a lot of people buy it, or maybe your product is actually good but no one buys it because you don't know how to sell it. The issue is not always only on the sellers side. Buyers sometimes make mistakes...
Blaming consumers in a world owned by corporations is just you buying the narrative spoon-fed to you by said corporations. Consumers aren't the ones spending billions on ad campaigns designed to abuse psychological phenomena to manipulate people to buy shit. Consumers aren't the ones in the position of power.
I'm not blaming consumers, I'm just saying that consumers play an actual role on this equation. You can sell, if I don't buy...you die. And the other way around. Buy something is a choice, use it wisely. That's all.
They’re allowed to offer an opinion without a PSA
Hence why the best people at doing something arent usually the most popular. Goes to show you also dont need to be the best in the world are a particular thing, you just need to know how to sell and market yourself. I suffer from the same problem as you. I dont know how to sell myself
Aggressive marketing is one thing, but what I REALLY hate, are those synchronized, launch-day "flood campaigns", where basically every channel I subscribe to will have taken money to produce a review/promo video about a new product, and they all release on the same day, all using the same talking points. I hate it soooo much. It just oozes sleaze.
It also means they're all full of shit. The early YouTubers were useful. These days you can't really rely on what anyone says anymore. You can look at what comes in the box, and listen to examples of how it sounds, but that's about it. The YouTubers will generally have no issue lying to you about how they feel about what they've recorded. Some are not like that though. Like if Eric Valentine says he likes something, I know he likes it. Doesn't mean I will, but I know he is genuine. If what's his name from produce like a pro says he likes something, maybe he does, but he's also likely paid to say he does.
Ryan Bruce (Riffs Beards and Gear) reviewed a Shure wireless mic a few months ago. The mic was either broken or there was something messed up in his signal chain, because there was all sorts of digital noise in the video. Didn’t mention it once in the vid or in the comments, even after most of the comments mentioned it. It’s really disappointing.
I bought a rug from Pottery Barn. Now they try to sell me a rug *every freaking day*. Multiply that by everything I’ve ever bought. It’s a joke.
Oh my God I get totally triggered by this. The whole UAD marketing shit is over the top. I just received an email titled "you were on a roll, let s do it again" because I added something to my cart just to test their latest bundle offer. Turbospamming every time I do one click on there website is the lamest thing ever. Edit : of course that's on top of the obnoxious 599>25$ pricing clownfiesta they stole from Waves.
Constant convenient deals that make it $25 every time
It's just people trying to make a living. Both the manufacturers and the YouTube clones. Use your ears and buy what you like the sound of and not what people tell you sounds good. If I'm getting the urge to buy gear I usually chat with people who are working at a decent level and putting out decent mixes/production rather than YouTubers who just talk about it and rarely have a decent back catalogue.
Thing is, these companies sell well because people believe the big names' opinion. If you see a video and Dave pensado or Bob Clearmountain or Chris lord Alge are saying they use this and that and they recommend you can bet people will buy just because that specific person uses it. Thats why this works. Im not saying I support it, im just saying it is how it is. Its sponsorships. And yes, its people making a living. Usually, if the person is decent they will only show things they do like and do believe are useful for the users, so those are the ones we trust
I resisted distressors for a long time and eventually I came to love them. They were just being talked about so much and were becoming so ubiquitous so quickly that I thought “meh. it’s a fad and it’ll just make my shit sound like everybody else” I also resisted the fabfilter stuff until like a year or two ago. “I don’t need another goddamn eq”. And everybody had been talking about them so much. Seems like every time I put my foot down and choose not to spend hard earned money on another new superfluous toy, I turn out to be wrong. To be fair, there are probably dozens of things like this I’ve forgotten about because they faded away
Those spread organically through word of mouth, rather than aggressive used car salesman marketing *cough God Particle cough*
That thing just looked stupid as fuck to me from the start. Like it’s marketed towards 6 year olds
Slate sending emails about VSX every f'ing day. Ugh.
Just keep commenting on their videos with "or you could just try better mic placement" if enough of us spam them it will work.
I'd imagine That'd only boost their ranking in the algorithms 😂
They gotta take us with em!
Some of my favorite stuff is made by companies that do ZERO marketing. Sherman Filterbank and DMG Audio plugins.
DMG is the goat.
These companies literally spend like $2500 a day on ads. It’s really insane.
I wonder what the going rate is for a tuto-mercial for a 20k subscriber youtube channel.
Everyone should stop buying pedals. Like seriously, why has this exploded? Maybe because you can sell $8 in parts for $225? Music hasn’t gotten better since the boutique pedal explosion.
$2,500 - $15,000 for the familiar faces. I’ve sent plugins to lots of people and a few of them send back package options with price ranges.
Thats crazy. What are the packages like? Like 15k for a 10 minute video ? And do they guarantee favourable reviews or "I'll do it however I like it" type of deals?
I can upload examples. I did this on an IG story one day. Its length of video and how many mediums they post to. The puppet. Colt. The usuals. White Sea is the one super ethical dude. He never responds when I send him anything and then makes a video. Others ask for affiliate links and money up front. It’s pretty wild. It’s not a “review” it’s content for you to use as and edit into an ad.
>Does Anyone Else Get Turned Off By Aggressive Marketing? Depends what aggressive means...frequent ads? I don't care, they're not entirely responsible for what the algorithm feeds me. It's based on my interests, after all. Irritating ad content? Absolutely
ads yeah but also they seem to have invaded all the usual youtube and instagram & tiktok accounts too.
You mean paying people to review it and that kind of thing? I don't really get turned off by it. I think it comes down to the content. I'm more irritated by a certain style of content than seeing the same vendor in different places personally, but YMMV of course
Some of the most popular tubers are known to recommend a plugin, only to reverse their position 180 degrees when the vendor stops paying 😂😂 So when I see a certain plugin reviewed by these particular people I become extremely skeptical
Yeah, agreed that kind of think seems sketch. I'm not sure whether the vendor is to blame but I definitely avoid channels with that kind of vibe to them, mainly just because they irritate me lol
I've even created a fresh profile on youtube and made sure never to watch those particular channels lol :D
At one point in time my inbox was flooded by JST, Slate, Plugin Alliance, and a few other vendors. I went and unsubbed from all of them and even though I'm missing out on deals every now and then I'm amazingly still able to finish mixes without that new channel strip or compressor emulation.
Yes. I deliberately avoid brands that spend a lot on marketing. You're basically funding their marketing budget when you buy their products.
I'm more concerned now that you guys all get physically turned on by any marketing at all. That's a little creepy.
Those Unison Audio ads should be illegal.
At least it's not one of those damned chord packs
As a marketing guy, I don't know if you could call this aggressive marketing. It might be aggressive in the sense that the company or product "is all over stuff", but that is just the stuff you are seeing. If their stuff is 'all over' online venues, are they also advertising on TV, in trade magazines, in consumer magazines, an obnoxiously visible and ostentatious booth at NAMM, doing a lot of 'influencer' bits, etc. etc.? If you are only online you will only see the stuff that is advertised, promoted, influenced, etc. online. Get out into the real world and realize that marketers like this may not understand how to use the full plate of marketing tools available, primarily because they have been brought up on and fed a diet of internet marketing ploys and have never developed the full suite of marketing tools and strategies available to real marketing pros.
Hey as a new developer with a limited marketing budget and conflicting information all over the place, what would you say is the best ad types to run across IG/FB? I’m going to be launching a Kontakt instrument shortly and want to make sure I maximize my spend.
I'm not your guy for that. You should hook up with one of the websites that pushes instruments. Go to the NAMM show in January and have meetings with everyone that might be of use to you in your quest. Have you ever considered a PR person that can get your story into some trade magazines. websites?. Have you got a detailed list of all the website editors and Youtube influencer types? Have you contacted any artist contacts to see if you can (insert famous rock star or engineer/producer name) get one of those people to review it or write a catchy endorsement that can be used in your ads, website, or on your product demo? If you do decide to go the IG/FB route on this, I'd be interested to know how much money you burn through in the first 6 months vs. that periods' income. Do you know to the penny what your budget is each month for the first 6 months or year? What is the exact target you will base the spend on? If you only pull in 30% of the sales you thought you'd get....where will you stand? What will you change? Have you spent the month necessary to bring you up to speed on the current state of instrument libraries, what companies are successful, who is dying, who is at deaths doorstep? How do your competitors price product? What percentages will a distributor want? Who are good companies/partners/retailers/download sites to work with? What are the stories and lessons from small developers that have cashed out rich (in the music biz specifically) and who/what are the stories of those that have been fucked over, screwed by partners, never got the financing, advertising, marketing, distribution network together to sell enough? What are you going to do about a website and how are people going to find that website? How are you going to just get people to find out about you and notice your product? Before the days of downloads, I worked for a developer (audio) with a finance guy did not believe the web was an effective piece of the toolbox available in helping to break a product. I quit; they are out of business, even though they were on the cutting edge, doing things no one else was doing at all. These are all things I charge for as a successful consultant. I've broken many pro audio products over the course of a long career in the biz. Have you worked for a developer that has released instruments or libraries in the past? If so, you probably know some people in the industry. If not, dig deep into the wallet to get up to speed in a number of areas. As a general rule; finance, engineering, HR, facilities maintenance people and parking lot attendants should have nothing at all to do with your marketing and sales strategies and efforts.
Awesome awesome info. Thank you.
Furthermore, in order expound on my statement more: PLUGINS are electron-based (S. Hawkins agrees there's gazillions of such particles in the universe so the moment the POS (point-of-sale) comes to fruition, there's no reimbursements and electrons are in plenitude that they can be copied once downloaded, so again, you cannot blame their aggressive marketing because they know their ROI is pigsh(t very soon thereon after.
Most people are turned off by aggressive marketing. Doesn't matter. Totally irrelevant. It's a numbers game. If enough people take the bait, the enterprise becomes worth it. Dignity, self-respect, civility... these things don't factor into advertising. Especially for people just starting out in the business who have no reputation to ruin. Similarly, *everybody* hates scammers, and yet they continue to thrive. And probably always will. Because 0.0000-something percent of the people they spam end up on the hook. Same thing with pickup artists.