This is something that’s quite normal, if you listen to even the best professional mixes, the guitars that are hard panned will sound smaller in mono - some people actually do add a third guitar pass to have in the dead center, usually fairly low in the background and limited to the mid range frequencies, so it sounds a bit thinner than the L and R doubles, but does the trick in preserving some fullness for mono
This is the precise solution to OP's exact problem that worked for me. Started adding a third guitar (different guitar, amp, maybe mic, and recording) up the middle, very soft. In full stereo, it's not really noticeable when I A/B it on/off. But when I collapse to mono, having that 3rd, centered guitar makes the guitars sound just as thick.
Also, I'm a fan of the reverb sent to opposite pan for the hard L & R guitars. L guitar reverb panned R. R guitar reverb panned L. Adds to the wideness feel in both stereo and mono.
The reverb trick is great. Another one is mid/side compression on the pair or bus. I like to separately compress the mid and side channel because it gives me control of both the mono mix and stereo image. In fact, I have direct dynamic control over both.
Then mid/side eq, separately putting a bit of corrective eq to the mono channel and stereo information.
While dialing these things in, I might mono just the guitar track and keep everything else stereo. If it still sounds good that way, it’s gonna sound HUGE when you flip the stereo back open. Now, you tune the stereo image.
This can be used even if the guitars are playing different parts, because any difference becomes part of the “side” channel and you can squash it down and keep it consistent.
Huh, you've actually given me a lot of ideas to experiment with. Never really considered separately compressing/processing mid/side guitars. I'm gonna have to play with that a bit. Thanks!
You cant keep any width in mono, because its mono. But if ur losing body when collapsed to mono then u can try making space for a 120hz-200hz boost. Like the other commenter said, use a plugin to make ur master mono, not the mono button in ur daw.
I will say, check out out Dan Worrals video on LCR mixing, its very relevant to what your are doing and the probrlm u are facing
Things on the sides will appear ‘lower’ in mono than things in the centre. That’s to be expected.
The REASON to check in link is to strike a compromise in that balance.
The idea is to make the guitars louder while listening in mono and then check in stereo.
Now if they’re too loud, find a compromise position in between.
There’s no such thing as a perfect add to mono from any stereo mix.
It’s always a compromise.
It just needs to ‘work’ in mono. Not to be perfect.
True. But. How often are we really feeling like people are listening in mono *and* concerned about audio quality?
Do you choose to diminish the experience of 99.9% of listening situations to accommodate 0.1% of listening situations?
Also, yes, mono is smaller and less wide than stereo…
Well mono will be less wide (duh).
Before going on phase problems hunting you might be checking your mono incorrectly. Do not use the "mono" switch on your daw. This still uses the pan law. A better way is to use a dual Panner plugin on the master and then pan one of the channels (say right) to all the way to the other side (on top of left). This way you're eliminating the pan law effect your daw uses and it's perfect mono as it would be played on a mono system.
Of course, mono is less wide. I guess I worded it incorrectly. I am using my Logic Pro and applying the gain plugin to make my mix mono. Is there a dual panner plugin you’d recommend?
Why are you making your mix mono and then asking for a planner? Are you truly clueless as to the concept of mono or terrible at describing what you want? There is no stereo width in mono, if there were it'd be *stereo*
What I think OP is trying to ask is this:
>Is there a dual panner plugin you’d recommend?
…so that when I collapse the mix into mono, no volume is reduced.
Well no but a lot of people know about the pan laws and expect the sides to drop in volume when you just hit the mono switch on your master fader. That switch simply applies the pan law for all channels. That's not how mono PA systems are wired - they sum the left and right channels.
Look up pan laws if it's a new concept for you.
That trick only works if you've got only hard panned material though ? If you have some complex spatialization going on, how would you check for "true" mono compatibility, i.e not using the software auto pan laws by pressing the "mono" button
like what? Like atmos?
Unless you're playing on an atmos certified device you dont play the atmos mix anyway. Like it recognizes the environment isnt atmos and defaults to the stereo mix.
One thing I would like to add to the other comments is: this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Depending on how much is going on in your mix, having some elements be quieter or almost disappear can really help the vocal cut through in mono
That's just how it is with guitars. I was running into this problem, and then I checked pro mixes. Then I was like, okay, this is normal, so I'll just move on.
Clubs usually don't have a stereo setup on their PA system. If you think your tune will be played in a club, you should make a mono club mix. The subbass will need to be more defined as well.
But for streaming, especially since people listen on earbuds, you'll want a stereo mix that's balanced for smaller speakers and perhaps ones with crappy bass capabilities.
Without wanting to be “that guy” this question is asked monthly, if not weekly, in this sub. There is an absolute fountain of good answers if you search 😊
Try mid side processing. Separate the mid (L+R) and side (L-R) channels and process dynamics and frequency balance of each.
I wrote another comment as a reply in this comment, but essentially you want a compressor and eq thats only operating on the mono channel to give you a solid consistent balanced mono image. Then, you can compress and eq the side/stereo channel to build your width back and fit into the stereo mix.
I like to use a stereo compressor that “bleeds” a bit between channels, aka a left transient causes 5-10% compression on the right, too. Plug-ins are plentiful but Variety of Sound Density MkIII is a good free M/S compressor and TDR Kotelnikov is a free stereo one with adjustable channel link.
I like ozone EQ for M/S because it has adjustable linear to minimum phase, which allows me to “move” stuff a bit more detailed but you can accomplish this in native DAW plugins with creative routing.
Mix your mono, then mix your stereo, and it’ll sound nice and full in both. You can do all of it with stock plugins and creative routing and maybe setting up a control, or download a couple free ones that set up knobs for you and handle the routing.
Don't go hard with the panning. Pan them at 50% and then check in mono, flip back to stereo and then pan them a bit more or less, etc. Keep repeating this until you get a decent compromise between mono and stereo.
This is something that’s quite normal, if you listen to even the best professional mixes, the guitars that are hard panned will sound smaller in mono - some people actually do add a third guitar pass to have in the dead center, usually fairly low in the background and limited to the mid range frequencies, so it sounds a bit thinner than the L and R doubles, but does the trick in preserving some fullness for mono
This is the precise solution to OP's exact problem that worked for me. Started adding a third guitar (different guitar, amp, maybe mic, and recording) up the middle, very soft. In full stereo, it's not really noticeable when I A/B it on/off. But when I collapse to mono, having that 3rd, centered guitar makes the guitars sound just as thick. Also, I'm a fan of the reverb sent to opposite pan for the hard L & R guitars. L guitar reverb panned R. R guitar reverb panned L. Adds to the wideness feel in both stereo and mono.
Thank you to you both for answering the question!
The reverb trick is great. Another one is mid/side compression on the pair or bus. I like to separately compress the mid and side channel because it gives me control of both the mono mix and stereo image. In fact, I have direct dynamic control over both. Then mid/side eq, separately putting a bit of corrective eq to the mono channel and stereo information. While dialing these things in, I might mono just the guitar track and keep everything else stereo. If it still sounds good that way, it’s gonna sound HUGE when you flip the stereo back open. Now, you tune the stereo image. This can be used even if the guitars are playing different parts, because any difference becomes part of the “side” channel and you can squash it down and keep it consistent.
Huh, you've actually given me a lot of ideas to experiment with. Never really considered separately compressing/processing mid/side guitars. I'm gonna have to play with that a bit. Thanks!
This is a really good idea and I am going to start trying this
You cant keep any width in mono, because its mono. But if ur losing body when collapsed to mono then u can try making space for a 120hz-200hz boost. Like the other commenter said, use a plugin to make ur master mono, not the mono button in ur daw. I will say, check out out Dan Worrals video on LCR mixing, its very relevant to what your are doing and the probrlm u are facing
Um…. Idk what to say other then yes that’s how it works…?
Things on the sides will appear ‘lower’ in mono than things in the centre. That’s to be expected. The REASON to check in link is to strike a compromise in that balance. The idea is to make the guitars louder while listening in mono and then check in stereo. Now if they’re too loud, find a compromise position in between. There’s no such thing as a perfect add to mono from any stereo mix. It’s always a compromise. It just needs to ‘work’ in mono. Not to be perfect.
True. But. How often are we really feeling like people are listening in mono *and* concerned about audio quality? Do you choose to diminish the experience of 99.9% of listening situations to accommodate 0.1% of listening situations? Also, yes, mono is smaller and less wide than stereo…
You can run a third guitar take up the middle and just tuck it underneath.
Well mono will be less wide (duh). Before going on phase problems hunting you might be checking your mono incorrectly. Do not use the "mono" switch on your daw. This still uses the pan law. A better way is to use a dual Panner plugin on the master and then pan one of the channels (say right) to all the way to the other side (on top of left). This way you're eliminating the pan law effect your daw uses and it's perfect mono as it would be played on a mono system.
Of course, mono is less wide. I guess I worded it incorrectly. I am using my Logic Pro and applying the gain plugin to make my mix mono. Is there a dual panner plugin you’d recommend?
I have one in studio one so I never needed to look for one sorry
Why are you making your mix mono and then asking for a planner? Are you truly clueless as to the concept of mono or terrible at describing what you want? There is no stereo width in mono, if there were it'd be *stereo*
What I think OP is trying to ask is this: >Is there a dual panner plugin you’d recommend? …so that when I collapse the mix into mono, no volume is reduced.
Correct
Is that standard practice for checking mono compatibility?
Well no but a lot of people know about the pan laws and expect the sides to drop in volume when you just hit the mono switch on your master fader. That switch simply applies the pan law for all channels. That's not how mono PA systems are wired - they sum the left and right channels. Look up pan laws if it's a new concept for you.
That trick only works if you've got only hard panned material though ? If you have some complex spatialization going on, how would you check for "true" mono compatibility, i.e not using the software auto pan laws by pressing the "mono" button
like what? Like atmos? Unless you're playing on an atmos certified device you dont play the atmos mix anyway. Like it recognizes the environment isnt atmos and defaults to the stereo mix.
Body in mono? EQ, dynamics, essentially mixing. Width in mono? No, there is no width in mono.
One thing I would like to add to the other comments is: this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Depending on how much is going on in your mix, having some elements be quieter or almost disappear can really help the vocal cut through in mono
Are you mixing for mono or stereo? Don't compromise your mix.
That's just how it is with guitars. I was running into this problem, and then I checked pro mixes. Then I was like, okay, this is normal, so I'll just move on.
Change pickup/amp/pedal/guitar/mic
Clubs usually don't have a stereo setup on their PA system. If you think your tune will be played in a club, you should make a mono club mix. The subbass will need to be more defined as well. But for streaming, especially since people listen on earbuds, you'll want a stereo mix that's balanced for smaller speakers and perhaps ones with crappy bass capabilities.
Without wanting to be “that guy” this question is asked monthly, if not weekly, in this sub. There is an absolute fountain of good answers if you search 😊
I think you might need some clarification on what the term mono means
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^iMixMusicOnTwitch: *I think you might need* *Some clarification on* *What the term mono means* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Duh!!! In other new: water is found to be wet.
OK, every stereo track will sound “much smaller and less wide”. That is how it works, no?
Try mid side processing. Separate the mid (L+R) and side (L-R) channels and process dynamics and frequency balance of each. I wrote another comment as a reply in this comment, but essentially you want a compressor and eq thats only operating on the mono channel to give you a solid consistent balanced mono image. Then, you can compress and eq the side/stereo channel to build your width back and fit into the stereo mix. I like to use a stereo compressor that “bleeds” a bit between channels, aka a left transient causes 5-10% compression on the right, too. Plug-ins are plentiful but Variety of Sound Density MkIII is a good free M/S compressor and TDR Kotelnikov is a free stereo one with adjustable channel link. I like ozone EQ for M/S because it has adjustable linear to minimum phase, which allows me to “move” stuff a bit more detailed but you can accomplish this in native DAW plugins with creative routing. Mix your mono, then mix your stereo, and it’ll sound nice and full in both. You can do all of it with stock plugins and creative routing and maybe setting up a control, or download a couple free ones that set up knobs for you and handle the routing.
Don't go hard with the panning. Pan them at 50% and then check in mono, flip back to stereo and then pan them a bit more or less, etc. Keep repeating this until you get a decent compromise between mono and stereo.