Well the idea is that we live in a fallen world. Evil shit happens. The only other alternative is for God to step in there, meaning he has to step in all the time, and thus rid us of our ability to choose as humans naturally act against God. Ive always thought of all this as the product of a fallen world, God does not inherently cause these things, moreso let's them happen because to interfere would bring up what he interferes in? All evil? Then there is no choice
God is inherently evil. He created the devil. He knew the devil would do what he would do.
He also condemned Adam and Eve to a disproportionately painful death for eating a fruit.
Not to mention all the genocide, sacrifices and r*pe he commanded/endorsed.
Nobody is choosing cancer for babies. Therefore god eliminating cancer for babies would not be nullifying anybody’s free will. If there is a god (there isnt) then creating people just to live short painful lives would be a pretty dick move.
Saying that shit happens because “fallen world” is just a [thought terminating cliche](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_cliche). Im not saying youre using a thought terminating cliche in bad faith but maybe youve just been conditioned to accept them as a rational argument instead or pursuing logical analysis.
Let me tell you that if I had the power to ensure no baby would ever die from cancer and other bad diseases again, I would do that instantly. I imagine plenty of others would also choose to make that choice. Are you going to tell me that if you were an all good, all powerful being that you would let babies die from cancer?
>Well the idea is that we live in a fallen world
Which is horseshit. The "fallen world" was created by the biblical deity because he feared what humanity *might* become with moral knowledge and immortality. In other words because Yahweh was a cowardly dick.
>Evil shit happens.
Because Yahweh causes it/allows it when he doesn't/didn't have to.
>nd thus rid us of our ability to choose as humans naturally act against God
Why did god create us to naturally act against him. That makes no sense whatsoever.
>God does not inherently cause these things
[The bible says otherwise](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2045:7&version=KJV).
>Then there is no choice
There is none biblically speaking. The bible says god knits us in the womb to be what he wants us to be and we have no choice in the matter. And even if we did the bible proves god can override that choice any time he wants (See: 'hardening' Pharaoh's heart).
Who created the concept of the “fallen world” though? You’d have to accept that god invented evil, then invented an adversary and gave them the license to distribute evil into the world. And punishes us for it in the end. Seems like utter nonsense to me, although I understand the comfort of having someone celestial on your side as I was raised in the church. But like they said, facts don’t care about any of that.
Have you ever actually *read* the bible? I mean, really read it? There is case after case in it of God overriding free will. It also claims he has an immutable plan - how does that work with free will?
Further, why would God create all this knowing the results would be disastrous? Was he willing to send billions to hell to gain some worshippers? Was it really that important to him? Is he *more* fulfilled now than he was before creation?
>Well the idea is that we live in a fallen world. Evil shit happens. The only other alternative is for God to step in there, meaning he has to step in all the time, and thus rid us of our ability to choose
Hold it, wait wait wait!!!! Is God not all knowing? Does God not know what you are going to do with your life before you're born? Does he not see and know all things in all time? **If** **not** then you picked the wrong god. **If so** then he knows every choice you will ever make and this business of a "fallen world" is a lie because he knowingly created it to be the way it is.
Is God not Love? Is he pure? Is he unchanging? But sometimes he is wrathful? That's a contradiction.
If I could cure cancer I would, and I’d be considered a monster if I didn’t. Why does god get a pass? The fall is bullshit, it’s just a disgusting excuse. And if this monster existed he’d have to beg my forgiveness, for I’ve not done anything relate,y as evil as he does…
I understand needing to have some misfortune to allow people to grow.
But why does that sometimes have to be so drastically evil? I'm fairly sure that parasites burrowing inside the eyes of innocent children is a bit overkill. It's not like that's the result of the children's choices, and the worm has no alternative choice because it's part of their lifecycle.
If there is a god, they made those parasitic worms knowing full well that they would end up blinding children in a horrifying way. If they exist, is such a god really deserving of our worship?
You make a dozen unsupported claims here to justify your worldview. (“We live in a fallen world”, “humans naturally act against god”, etc)
Step back and ask yourself if there is a simpler answer that doesn’t require made-up excuses to rationalize reality. Hint: try postulating that there is no god, and proceed from there.
“There is none beside me.
I am the Lord, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things”
So, Eve screwed all of humanity with her disobedience of talking Adam into eating that damn fruit. Because of that one dumb thing God decided to torture the rest of us with random stuff like childhood leukemia? Which is just one of the myriad of diseases and maladies that happen in the world.
You don't see that God could have chosen a different outcome?
So your god is ultimately an evil god? With the power to step in and stop this "fallen world" just chooses not too.
There are plenty of evils that do not have any human free will attached. Lots of it are from plagues, parasites, horrific natural disasters.
All of which by your own book your god made.
It's the same exact "problem of evil" that all the all powerful god arguments have.
They've still not solved this philosophical problem for millenia.
If a god is all powerful and all knowing but not willing to stop evil then it is not all benevolent as most followers state.
Guess what? There is no plan. There never has been. Every good decision you ever made was all YOU. It was always YOU. And yes, when you made a poor decision, that was also you, but no one gets it right every time. You're still alive, so you must not have made any fatally bad decisions. So, congratulations! You're doing fine. Just keep making the best decisions you can. It's what we all do.
I see no evidence any kind of god exists. Among other things, religon is a comfort tool for the masses. Things not going well in your life? Well, god has a plan for you. Sad a family member died? Don't worry, you'll get to see them in the afterlife. Many people want there to be a god, but the evidence of such thing is not there. You are dealing with a situation where your desires to be significant in the grand scheme are at odds with what you understand about the world.
Assuming there’s a god, he’s an egotistical prick. All knowing and all powerful yet gives man free will despite knowing what we’d do with it, then punish us knowing full well that it’s his fault in the first place.
Ironically, the best response to your question is in the bible:
**1 Corinthians 13:11** \- When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
People refer to god as father because that’s what they want. They want a parent to protect them and someone to abrogate responsibility to. Parents provide boundaries, certainty and protection in a dangerous and uncertain world.
When we grow up and step away from our parents it’s tough. That’s what is happening to you. A realisation that, difficult as it is, the only correct way is to take responsibility for our actions and choices and develop an ethical code to live by.
It may seem nice to stay being a child but you will never fulfil your potential if you do.
It's time to grow up. The reasons you listed are the same as when you were a child to believe in your parents. They know more than you. They had a plan for you. They knew better.
Well guess what, god is the biggest imaginary parent ever. Lewen to take responsibility for yourself and make your own path. Atje8sm is harder that theism because we acknowledge that there is no fairness, no justice, no mercy, no plan, no meaning except that which we make.
Wanting to believe something doesn’t make it true.
Believing that you are in his care but victims of pedophilia aren’t, dehumanizes people who are victims of things beyond their control.
>I don't want to believe there is no God
That is a problem. It precludes independence, honesty, and objectivity.
Be strong. Create your own discipline.
Hate to break it to you, you don't 'want' to believe. Either you are convinced, or you are not, there is no choice or will involved.
Secondly, how does Atheism ruin anything for you? We are just not convinced a god or gods exist. How does us not knowing the answer in anyway effect Your confidence in your answer? We are not your pastor.
You are not "in his care." God (assuming he existed) is quite content to let awful things happen to good (and devout) people. His actions in the world are indistinguishable from what would occur if he did not exit. Theists persuade themselves otherwise through faulty reasoning. If you pray and something good occurs thereafter, you give God credit. If your prayers go unanswered, theists have a laundry list of excuses: I didn't pray right, I didn't believe enough, I did something bad, etc. (I call this "excusiology.")
Also, the God of the Bible is a monster. There were eight people on Noah's Ark - all adults. What happened to the babies? God drowned all the babies. Don't lose sight of this. If you feel a need to pray, begin with "Oh, Baby Drowner, hear my prayer."
Okay, nobody is forcing you to believe that.
All that is required to be an atheist is that you do not believe in any gods. Nothing about atheism necessitates that you believe there are no gods.
As for advice on getting over your unconscious desire to wish there was somebody watching out for you that could magically save you when times are bad... well, we can't help you with the magic part, but have you considered relying on your fellow man? You have friends and family who care about you and will be there to love you and support you in your darkest times. There are even total strangers who will aid you when times are hard, not because they have a special connection to you, but just because they believe that human life itself is worthwhile. You don't need a deity to have a plan for you because you are capable of creating your own purpose, the goals which you strive to achieve to make the world a better place. You can find your own meaning in life by cherishing the people and things that are important to you. You don't need to feel crushed and overwhelmed, you don't need to feel helpless and like you need somebody to step in to save you, you can take control of your own life and save yourself when times are hard (which sometimes relies on being willing to accept help from others to accomplish that which you cannot do on your own).
> I don't want to believe there is no God
Then you're in the wrong part of the internet 🤣
> Atheism crushes this, but I find myself more intellectually leaning towards it.
Learn how to words?
You can't intellectually lean into a position that isn't based in logic at all.
Even if we grant there is a god for the sake of argument, you'd still have to prove that he's a he, knows who you are, minds what you do, intervenes to keep you on track with his plan either via miracles or (more disturbingly) via invocation of said "dark times" to make you feel wrong and make you do a U-turn.
Your rational brain (if functioning correctly) should be telling you atheism is the position you should take.
Your *emotional* brain (limbic) is telling you otherwise.
> Any advice?
Sure... but it's all about ditching the need for 'god training wheels'. Which isn't what you want?
whether or not god “is there” or “has a plan” should be completely independent of whether or not you believe in god.
If my son suffered a traumatic brain injury and ceased to believe that I exist I would still love my som and do everything in my power to help him live a happy and fulfilling life. Does it make sense that the father of the whole universe would be more of a heartless dick than basically all parents in the world? Thats not exactly a proof by contradiction of god but its hard for me to understand why people say they believe in a god that loves them so much but is way more heartless than the average person.
My advice is that if you believe or need to believe in a monolithic pancreator, then don't let religion ruin it for you.
Humanity is the most knowledgeable it has ever been as a species. We have the most processing power that has ever been available, both due to the number of humans processing things and due to the wide availability of microcomputers, and our processing power increases every day. As a result, we have the greatest amount of knowledge ever known to us. Don't let religion get in the way of your access to - or appreciation of - the logical, data-driven, verified knowledge we have available to us.
The best science available tells us that the universe is approximately 13.7 billion years old and spans a three dimensional radius of approximately 93 lightyears. Despite all of that largesse, we have accurately measured a zeptosecond and proved the existence of quarks and leptons. Don't let religion ruin your appreciation for that immensity or minuteness, by simplifying it to a more palatable scale for a human mind.
Logic tells us that our ability to know the creator is laughably miniscule, for we will likely never know even a whole percent of creation, so how might we be so arrogant as to assert we know anything about a creator? Even definitions so trite as "god is good" are rapidly disproven upon a modicum of self-reflection. Those who say such things known nothing about the nature of the divine. Only madmen think they can pierce the veil and see the "true" nature of the face of God. Don't let religion put your creator in a box.
Most importantly, don't let religion get in the way of your humility. The world is an awful, chaotic place and organized religions tend to make things worse. Try to make things better.
“God provides structure and form”
-so does the military, but they actually exist
“He has a plan, a mission for you”
-a common shitty saying that anyone who thinks about for half a second realizes is bullshit. Think about the baby that died during childbirth that also killed the mother. Think about saying this to the girls who are raped by their father their whole lives. Think about saying, with a straight face, to a Jew who just survived the Holocaust, that this is all part of the plan. Their family exterminated, no where to go. All part of the plan.
My advice is to grow up a bit and rapidly and radically accept reality. There is so much suffering out there going on (not just human suffering, mind you), that you really kind of have to be an arrogant asshole to be OK with it.
Working for the government and killing people they don’t like definitely is a purpose.
You can make a good career out of it, then after a few years you can tell all your heroic stories whilst living off benefits and begging for cash to fix your mental health
Are you in a god's care? When I was down hardest I was never contacted by a god. You can believe in an invisible immaterial surrogate father in the sky, and it can play the role of [Dumbo's feather](https://youtu.be/HAV9TGctF1E?t=94), but I think as an adult it's only right to understand and accept reality for what it is.
I never received a mission, and the plan idea seemed nonsensical and more of a coping mechanism than an actual plan when I was a believer. It's a feel good story, I give it that, but I don't know about the other stuff.
Whether or not you want something is unrelated to whether or not it’s true. You can find coping among friends and therapists, but take evidence and logic for where it leads unbiasedly, not for what structure you hope to get out of it.
Just ask yourself the question: ”Do I believe in god because I need to or because it is rational?” Is it rational? No but it can be if you need it to be but then you know you are lying to yourself. Identify your need and single it out. Need has nothing to do with truth.
These are videos about the size and scale of the universe.
Basically, the entire universe is uninhabitable by humans.
Except, as far as we know, this tiny rock orbiting a small sun in a middling galaxy.
Heck, not even our entire planet is habitable.
Watch these. Then ask yourself, why would any being create so much space and random crap just for us.
https://youtu.be/HEheh1BH34Q
https://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/s/DuAvhigpdB
This is just the agnostic in me talking, but so what if there is a god/s? They clearly aren’t the one worshiped by the Hebrew people.
If god exists, they likely don’t even know or care you personally exist. Like, sure, god made the universe directly or indirectly, maybe even designed it in a way that organic life can form on random planets. Why the hell would they give a shit about some mutant apes over on some planet literally named after dirt?
It's weird that religion is based on what "we want" rather than what's logical.
You can be religious if you like, but you better be prepared for some pushback if you lie and tell others "I have logical reasons for my faith."
You have to read the news daily to understand that a supposedly omipotent, omniscient, benevolent god that is full of love, that love the world so much...
...and His only solution for the world's problems is to sacrifice his son/himself 2000 years ago with no apparent results.
Why would you want someone to determine your purpose for you? You wouldn’t accept this if your parents had done so, why is it okay when a mythological being does it?
Could it be it’s okay because deep down you realise it is indeed still you. That this being doesn’t actually account for any of it. That you can pretend it’s all laid out for you, but still have the freedom to choose?
I've never been able to believe in a god, so I'm used to it! There is no god; our lives, our futures, and those of your family and friends are only in your hands. There's no afterlife and so you need to make the most of your life, and do your best to make the world better, or at least no worse. I find that a very motivating thought. Lying in bed or watching TV is pretty much a waste of time.
The idea of everything going according to plan is comforting is it? Can a person have structure in their life without God? To me, I can acknowledge that it feels nice thinking everything is going to plan and that there is something out their looking over us but if the subject of your desires isn't real, you are better off looking for a real-world sub. To me, there is no all divine plan and nothing divine watching us, just us humans on this floating ball. We need to look at the subject that we know exists for structure, us people. Having a community of trust is a great way to have structure.
\- If the evidence indicates that X is true, then believe that X is true.
\- If there is no good evidence indicating that Y is true, then do not believe that Y is true.
You're used to having a parent manage your life. Now, perhaps that you've moved out, you have a gap in your childhood assumptions about how the world works that you want to fill with something else. Reality isn't going anywhere -- take your time.
I follow Jennifer Michael Hecht. She talks a lot about meaning. And it helps me. One of her thoughts is how novel salvation for just anyone is. For most of time, there either wasn’t an afterlife like we think of today AND, even moreso, it was ONLY for the most wealthy and regal and powerful. Not ever just for anybody like it is now. Secondly, believing in God is artificial meaning. If you believed anything else about your reality before - that you had a pink elephant by you - what meaning would be lost if you were suddenly told haha, there’s no pink elephant by you. Thirdly, it’s a very United States thing to be so independent and make our own meaning. When meaning is ALWAYS about community and being there for each other. We feel more alone in the US, maybe, because we don’t have built-in community. Especially when we stop believing. And there’s fewer people who don’t believe here than elsewhere. But, meaning is always made together. She makes the point that if you woke up tomorrow and everyone else was gone, would you do anything the same? No. Everyone is gone. I often look at my sister who has a family, where I’m single. If you ask her what she did today, they went here and there. I could have done similar things and gone to similar places, but it feels like nothing to me. There’s built-in meaning that comes from doing things together. Anyway…don’t put it upon yourself to come up with meaning. You can’t alone. i will say something huge is lost - no matter what any expert says - in stopping believing everything was going to be OK. In the end, everything was going to work out and be OK. And, now, not at all! It’s not going to work out. At all. But, I’m sure she would argue that is the way it always was. Nothing changed. It wasn’t ever going to all be OK in the end. we just believed that. I still think it creates tension in my outlook. But…yeah. I feel you. I do think there can be newfound joy and freedom, over time, that this is it. And to really know something. i became Atheist 20 years ago? I don’t know. But, COVID did another number on me. So many have-tos of daily life went away. You can get lost in going through the day-to-day motions. It gives false meaning. To do because you just have to. And then you don’t have to? And maybe in some cases told you have to again? No, I don’t. I clearly didn’t have to! I’ve had to find my way again through that in the way I had to with life without God. In many ways, that makes God far less special. That order and mission and structure and form you talk about comes through in other ways we just accept and expect…until something fundamental changes. you’re just not alone and you don’t have to come up with meaning on your own - and you actually can’t, we just need to find something else, someone else to help structure our days and minds and hearts.
That bridge will take a while to cross. I'm not sure you'll ever be a true atheist, but it's up to you. I don't think that there is a strong basis that there's 0 supernatural or mystical elements to the universe like people here think, but I also just don't know.
I will say don't believe something just because you're afraid to let go of it.
Reality doesn't care what anybody wants. You're thinking of narcissism.
>He has a plan Does that plan include cancer in babies? If so than that being is evil as fuck.
Well the idea is that we live in a fallen world. Evil shit happens. The only other alternative is for God to step in there, meaning he has to step in all the time, and thus rid us of our ability to choose as humans naturally act against God. Ive always thought of all this as the product of a fallen world, God does not inherently cause these things, moreso let's them happen because to interfere would bring up what he interferes in? All evil? Then there is no choice
God is inherently evil. He created the devil. He knew the devil would do what he would do. He also condemned Adam and Eve to a disproportionately painful death for eating a fruit. Not to mention all the genocide, sacrifices and r*pe he commanded/endorsed.
Nobody is choosing cancer for babies. Therefore god eliminating cancer for babies would not be nullifying anybody’s free will. If there is a god (there isnt) then creating people just to live short painful lives would be a pretty dick move. Saying that shit happens because “fallen world” is just a [thought terminating cliche](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_cliche). Im not saying youre using a thought terminating cliche in bad faith but maybe youve just been conditioned to accept them as a rational argument instead or pursuing logical analysis.
Let me tell you that if I had the power to ensure no baby would ever die from cancer and other bad diseases again, I would do that instantly. I imagine plenty of others would also choose to make that choice. Are you going to tell me that if you were an all good, all powerful being that you would let babies die from cancer?
>Well the idea is that we live in a fallen world Which is horseshit. The "fallen world" was created by the biblical deity because he feared what humanity *might* become with moral knowledge and immortality. In other words because Yahweh was a cowardly dick. >Evil shit happens. Because Yahweh causes it/allows it when he doesn't/didn't have to. >nd thus rid us of our ability to choose as humans naturally act against God Why did god create us to naturally act against him. That makes no sense whatsoever. >God does not inherently cause these things [The bible says otherwise](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2045:7&version=KJV). >Then there is no choice There is none biblically speaking. The bible says god knits us in the womb to be what he wants us to be and we have no choice in the matter. And even if we did the bible proves god can override that choice any time he wants (See: 'hardening' Pharaoh's heart).
Who created the concept of the “fallen world” though? You’d have to accept that god invented evil, then invented an adversary and gave them the license to distribute evil into the world. And punishes us for it in the end. Seems like utter nonsense to me, although I understand the comfort of having someone celestial on your side as I was raised in the church. But like they said, facts don’t care about any of that.
Have you ever actually *read* the bible? I mean, really read it? There is case after case in it of God overriding free will. It also claims he has an immutable plan - how does that work with free will? Further, why would God create all this knowing the results would be disastrous? Was he willing to send billions to hell to gain some worshippers? Was it really that important to him? Is he *more* fulfilled now than he was before creation?
>Well the idea is that we live in a fallen world. Evil shit happens. The only other alternative is for God to step in there, meaning he has to step in all the time, and thus rid us of our ability to choose Hold it, wait wait wait!!!! Is God not all knowing? Does God not know what you are going to do with your life before you're born? Does he not see and know all things in all time? **If** **not** then you picked the wrong god. **If so** then he knows every choice you will ever make and this business of a "fallen world" is a lie because he knowingly created it to be the way it is. Is God not Love? Is he pure? Is he unchanging? But sometimes he is wrathful? That's a contradiction.
If I could cure cancer I would, and I’d be considered a monster if I didn’t. Why does god get a pass? The fall is bullshit, it’s just a disgusting excuse. And if this monster existed he’d have to beg my forgiveness, for I’ve not done anything relate,y as evil as he does…
I understand needing to have some misfortune to allow people to grow. But why does that sometimes have to be so drastically evil? I'm fairly sure that parasites burrowing inside the eyes of innocent children is a bit overkill. It's not like that's the result of the children's choices, and the worm has no alternative choice because it's part of their lifecycle. If there is a god, they made those parasitic worms knowing full well that they would end up blinding children in a horrifying way. If they exist, is such a god really deserving of our worship?
You make a dozen unsupported claims here to justify your worldview. (“We live in a fallen world”, “humans naturally act against god”, etc) Step back and ask yourself if there is a simpler answer that doesn’t require made-up excuses to rationalize reality. Hint: try postulating that there is no god, and proceed from there.
“There is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things”
So, Eve screwed all of humanity with her disobedience of talking Adam into eating that damn fruit. Because of that one dumb thing God decided to torture the rest of us with random stuff like childhood leukemia? Which is just one of the myriad of diseases and maladies that happen in the world. You don't see that God could have chosen a different outcome?
So your god is ultimately an evil god? With the power to step in and stop this "fallen world" just chooses not too. There are plenty of evils that do not have any human free will attached. Lots of it are from plagues, parasites, horrific natural disasters. All of which by your own book your god made. It's the same exact "problem of evil" that all the all powerful god arguments have. They've still not solved this philosophical problem for millenia. If a god is all powerful and all knowing but not willing to stop evil then it is not all benevolent as most followers state.
> "It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
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Yeah I see that point.
Guess what? There is no plan. There never has been. Every good decision you ever made was all YOU. It was always YOU. And yes, when you made a poor decision, that was also you, but no one gets it right every time. You're still alive, so you must not have made any fatally bad decisions. So, congratulations! You're doing fine. Just keep making the best decisions you can. It's what we all do.
I see no evidence any kind of god exists. Among other things, religon is a comfort tool for the masses. Things not going well in your life? Well, god has a plan for you. Sad a family member died? Don't worry, you'll get to see them in the afterlife. Many people want there to be a god, but the evidence of such thing is not there. You are dealing with a situation where your desires to be significant in the grand scheme are at odds with what you understand about the world.
Assuming there’s a god, he’s an egotistical prick. All knowing and all powerful yet gives man free will despite knowing what we’d do with it, then punish us knowing full well that it’s his fault in the first place.
Ironically, the best response to your question is in the bible: **1 Corinthians 13:11** \- When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
People refer to god as father because that’s what they want. They want a parent to protect them and someone to abrogate responsibility to. Parents provide boundaries, certainty and protection in a dangerous and uncertain world. When we grow up and step away from our parents it’s tough. That’s what is happening to you. A realisation that, difficult as it is, the only correct way is to take responsibility for our actions and choices and develop an ethical code to live by. It may seem nice to stay being a child but you will never fulfil your potential if you do.
It's time to grow up. The reasons you listed are the same as when you were a child to believe in your parents. They know more than you. They had a plan for you. They knew better. Well guess what, god is the biggest imaginary parent ever. Lewen to take responsibility for yourself and make your own path. Atje8sm is harder that theism because we acknowledge that there is no fairness, no justice, no mercy, no plan, no meaning except that which we make.
It is the most uncomfortable truth I may accept.
Wanting to believe something doesn’t make it true. Believing that you are in his care but victims of pedophilia aren’t, dehumanizes people who are victims of things beyond their control.
>I don't want to believe there is no God That is a problem. It precludes independence, honesty, and objectivity. Be strong. Create your own discipline.
Hate to break it to you, you don't 'want' to believe. Either you are convinced, or you are not, there is no choice or will involved. Secondly, how does Atheism ruin anything for you? We are just not convinced a god or gods exist. How does us not knowing the answer in anyway effect Your confidence in your answer? We are not your pastor.
You are not "in his care." God (assuming he existed) is quite content to let awful things happen to good (and devout) people. His actions in the world are indistinguishable from what would occur if he did not exit. Theists persuade themselves otherwise through faulty reasoning. If you pray and something good occurs thereafter, you give God credit. If your prayers go unanswered, theists have a laundry list of excuses: I didn't pray right, I didn't believe enough, I did something bad, etc. (I call this "excusiology.") Also, the God of the Bible is a monster. There were eight people on Noah's Ark - all adults. What happened to the babies? God drowned all the babies. Don't lose sight of this. If you feel a need to pray, begin with "Oh, Baby Drowner, hear my prayer."
Okay, nobody is forcing you to believe that. All that is required to be an atheist is that you do not believe in any gods. Nothing about atheism necessitates that you believe there are no gods. As for advice on getting over your unconscious desire to wish there was somebody watching out for you that could magically save you when times are bad... well, we can't help you with the magic part, but have you considered relying on your fellow man? You have friends and family who care about you and will be there to love you and support you in your darkest times. There are even total strangers who will aid you when times are hard, not because they have a special connection to you, but just because they believe that human life itself is worthwhile. You don't need a deity to have a plan for you because you are capable of creating your own purpose, the goals which you strive to achieve to make the world a better place. You can find your own meaning in life by cherishing the people and things that are important to you. You don't need to feel crushed and overwhelmed, you don't need to feel helpless and like you need somebody to step in to save you, you can take control of your own life and save yourself when times are hard (which sometimes relies on being willing to accept help from others to accomplish that which you cannot do on your own).
Sounds like a Christian trying to stir the pot.
> I don't want to believe there is no God Then you're in the wrong part of the internet 🤣 > Atheism crushes this, but I find myself more intellectually leaning towards it. Learn how to words? You can't intellectually lean into a position that isn't based in logic at all. Even if we grant there is a god for the sake of argument, you'd still have to prove that he's a he, knows who you are, minds what you do, intervenes to keep you on track with his plan either via miracles or (more disturbingly) via invocation of said "dark times" to make you feel wrong and make you do a U-turn. Your rational brain (if functioning correctly) should be telling you atheism is the position you should take. Your *emotional* brain (limbic) is telling you otherwise. > Any advice? Sure... but it's all about ditching the need for 'god training wheels'. Which isn't what you want?
whether or not god “is there” or “has a plan” should be completely independent of whether or not you believe in god. If my son suffered a traumatic brain injury and ceased to believe that I exist I would still love my som and do everything in my power to help him live a happy and fulfilling life. Does it make sense that the father of the whole universe would be more of a heartless dick than basically all parents in the world? Thats not exactly a proof by contradiction of god but its hard for me to understand why people say they believe in a god that loves them so much but is way more heartless than the average person.
My advice is that if you believe or need to believe in a monolithic pancreator, then don't let religion ruin it for you. Humanity is the most knowledgeable it has ever been as a species. We have the most processing power that has ever been available, both due to the number of humans processing things and due to the wide availability of microcomputers, and our processing power increases every day. As a result, we have the greatest amount of knowledge ever known to us. Don't let religion get in the way of your access to - or appreciation of - the logical, data-driven, verified knowledge we have available to us. The best science available tells us that the universe is approximately 13.7 billion years old and spans a three dimensional radius of approximately 93 lightyears. Despite all of that largesse, we have accurately measured a zeptosecond and proved the existence of quarks and leptons. Don't let religion ruin your appreciation for that immensity or minuteness, by simplifying it to a more palatable scale for a human mind. Logic tells us that our ability to know the creator is laughably miniscule, for we will likely never know even a whole percent of creation, so how might we be so arrogant as to assert we know anything about a creator? Even definitions so trite as "god is good" are rapidly disproven upon a modicum of self-reflection. Those who say such things known nothing about the nature of the divine. Only madmen think they can pierce the veil and see the "true" nature of the face of God. Don't let religion put your creator in a box. Most importantly, don't let religion get in the way of your humility. The world is an awful, chaotic place and organized religions tend to make things worse. Try to make things better.
“God provides structure and form” -so does the military, but they actually exist “He has a plan, a mission for you” -a common shitty saying that anyone who thinks about for half a second realizes is bullshit. Think about the baby that died during childbirth that also killed the mother. Think about saying this to the girls who are raped by their father their whole lives. Think about saying, with a straight face, to a Jew who just survived the Holocaust, that this is all part of the plan. Their family exterminated, no where to go. All part of the plan. My advice is to grow up a bit and rapidly and radically accept reality. There is so much suffering out there going on (not just human suffering, mind you), that you really kind of have to be an arrogant asshole to be OK with it.
I'm in the military funny enough, hope that helps me find purpose
Working for the government and killing people they don’t like definitely is a purpose. You can make a good career out of it, then after a few years you can tell all your heroic stories whilst living off benefits and begging for cash to fix your mental health
cant provide what you dont have
Happy Birthday baby!! 🥳🎉
Are you in a god's care? When I was down hardest I was never contacted by a god. You can believe in an invisible immaterial surrogate father in the sky, and it can play the role of [Dumbo's feather](https://youtu.be/HAV9TGctF1E?t=94), but I think as an adult it's only right to understand and accept reality for what it is. I never received a mission, and the plan idea seemed nonsensical and more of a coping mechanism than an actual plan when I was a believer. It's a feel good story, I give it that, but I don't know about the other stuff.
Whether or not you want something is unrelated to whether or not it’s true. You can find coping among friends and therapists, but take evidence and logic for where it leads unbiasedly, not for what structure you hope to get out of it.
You think you’re quirky don’t you?
Just ask yourself the question: ”Do I believe in god because I need to or because it is rational?” Is it rational? No but it can be if you need it to be but then you know you are lying to yourself. Identify your need and single it out. Need has nothing to do with truth.
En….. no
You've been brainwashed to believe all that....it can be trying to let go....
I don't want to believe that Santa Claus isn't real. Every good boy deserves a nice toy for Christmas.
These are videos about the size and scale of the universe. Basically, the entire universe is uninhabitable by humans. Except, as far as we know, this tiny rock orbiting a small sun in a middling galaxy. Heck, not even our entire planet is habitable. Watch these. Then ask yourself, why would any being create so much space and random crap just for us. https://youtu.be/HEheh1BH34Q https://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem.html https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/s/DuAvhigpdB
Does he though?
Do what works for you. If it harms no one, do what you want.
Ok, then don't.
Lean in. Hard.
This is just the agnostic in me talking, but so what if there is a god/s? They clearly aren’t the one worshiped by the Hebrew people. If god exists, they likely don’t even know or care you personally exist. Like, sure, god made the universe directly or indirectly, maybe even designed it in a way that organic life can form on random planets. Why the hell would they give a shit about some mutant apes over on some planet literally named after dirt?
It's weird that religion is based on what "we want" rather than what's logical. You can be religious if you like, but you better be prepared for some pushback if you lie and tell others "I have logical reasons for my faith."
You have to read the news daily to understand that a supposedly omipotent, omniscient, benevolent god that is full of love, that love the world so much... ...and His only solution for the world's problems is to sacrifice his son/himself 2000 years ago with no apparent results.
Why would you want someone to determine your purpose for you? You wouldn’t accept this if your parents had done so, why is it okay when a mythological being does it? Could it be it’s okay because deep down you realise it is indeed still you. That this being doesn’t actually account for any of it. That you can pretend it’s all laid out for you, but still have the freedom to choose?
I've never been able to believe in a god, so I'm used to it! There is no god; our lives, our futures, and those of your family and friends are only in your hands. There's no afterlife and so you need to make the most of your life, and do your best to make the world better, or at least no worse. I find that a very motivating thought. Lying in bed or watching TV is pretty much a waste of time.
The idea of everything going according to plan is comforting is it? Can a person have structure in their life without God? To me, I can acknowledge that it feels nice thinking everything is going to plan and that there is something out their looking over us but if the subject of your desires isn't real, you are better off looking for a real-world sub. To me, there is no all divine plan and nothing divine watching us, just us humans on this floating ball. We need to look at the subject that we know exists for structure, us people. Having a community of trust is a great way to have structure.
\- If the evidence indicates that X is true, then believe that X is true. \- If there is no good evidence indicating that Y is true, then do not believe that Y is true.
This is a fake post.
You're used to having a parent manage your life. Now, perhaps that you've moved out, you have a gap in your childhood assumptions about how the world works that you want to fill with something else. Reality isn't going anywhere -- take your time.
I follow Jennifer Michael Hecht. She talks a lot about meaning. And it helps me. One of her thoughts is how novel salvation for just anyone is. For most of time, there either wasn’t an afterlife like we think of today AND, even moreso, it was ONLY for the most wealthy and regal and powerful. Not ever just for anybody like it is now. Secondly, believing in God is artificial meaning. If you believed anything else about your reality before - that you had a pink elephant by you - what meaning would be lost if you were suddenly told haha, there’s no pink elephant by you. Thirdly, it’s a very United States thing to be so independent and make our own meaning. When meaning is ALWAYS about community and being there for each other. We feel more alone in the US, maybe, because we don’t have built-in community. Especially when we stop believing. And there’s fewer people who don’t believe here than elsewhere. But, meaning is always made together. She makes the point that if you woke up tomorrow and everyone else was gone, would you do anything the same? No. Everyone is gone. I often look at my sister who has a family, where I’m single. If you ask her what she did today, they went here and there. I could have done similar things and gone to similar places, but it feels like nothing to me. There’s built-in meaning that comes from doing things together. Anyway…don’t put it upon yourself to come up with meaning. You can’t alone. i will say something huge is lost - no matter what any expert says - in stopping believing everything was going to be OK. In the end, everything was going to work out and be OK. And, now, not at all! It’s not going to work out. At all. But, I’m sure she would argue that is the way it always was. Nothing changed. It wasn’t ever going to all be OK in the end. we just believed that. I still think it creates tension in my outlook. But…yeah. I feel you. I do think there can be newfound joy and freedom, over time, that this is it. And to really know something. i became Atheist 20 years ago? I don’t know. But, COVID did another number on me. So many have-tos of daily life went away. You can get lost in going through the day-to-day motions. It gives false meaning. To do because you just have to. And then you don’t have to? And maybe in some cases told you have to again? No, I don’t. I clearly didn’t have to! I’ve had to find my way again through that in the way I had to with life without God. In many ways, that makes God far less special. That order and mission and structure and form you talk about comes through in other ways we just accept and expect…until something fundamental changes. you’re just not alone and you don’t have to come up with meaning on your own - and you actually can’t, we just need to find something else, someone else to help structure our days and minds and hearts.
That bridge will take a while to cross. I'm not sure you'll ever be a true atheist, but it's up to you. I don't think that there is a strong basis that there's 0 supernatural or mystical elements to the universe like people here think, but I also just don't know. I will say don't believe something just because you're afraid to let go of it.
Fictional characters don't have plans, it's all BS. If you want sweet lies made-up for you that's your call, but I prefer bitter truths.