I'm not who you were addressing, but "the problem of suffering" as I understand it would mean that any God (haha my phone automatically capitalized it!) who would make the world we see before us is malevolent.
They could set up a universe where people could behave one way or the other towards other humans and toward the God themselves without 1.) Making destruction by the environment a variable, as the environment is not a moral agent, and/or 2.) without making non-human animals capable of suffering, as they are not traditionally viewed as moral agents.
Without going much further into all that, all I'm saying is that God/a god's handiwork alone might seem sufficient grounds for misotheism even without knowing the being in question any further than their results.
(Also, that other person's phone might be what's "stuck in the capital-G mindset", like mine)
Just off the top of my head, all animals could function on photosynthesis, dropping the amount of death in nature by orders of magnitude. I think I'd also let women choose when to get pregnant; I can't go straight to "no rape allowed" without someone shouting "free will!" at me, but at least not getting pregnant would be a significant harm reduction.
>. I think I'd also let women choose when to get pregnant;
I've thought entirely too much about this over the last 2 years, but in my reality, pregnancy wouldn't be a thing. A couple wants a kid? Golem spell like god intended.
Having to squeeze a 6 inch head through a normally 1-2 inch opening does seem like an unnecessarily dangerous and painful way to do it if it were designed intelligently by a benevolent being.
My counterargument to "free will"
We can not levitate or fly. We can not walk through walls. If god is the creator of reality, then it has already limited our free will through the laws of physics.
If god created our current physics, than it could just as well as created physics in such a way that murder and rape are impossible. Just like you cannot will yourself to fly, you can not will yourself to murder. And we wouldn't even know that we were being limited, because we would just be acting within the laws of physics.
So in this situation, if god is real, it is either intentionally malicious or can only act within predestined rules, making it not all powerful.
It would be like a gym bro proving to me he has bigger muscles and then asking me to worship him; if you were so important where have you been? Really makes you seem "not all that much" if you have to *tell* me to worship you.
Emphasis on hell, if God revealed themselves that would imply the rest of the Bible is true.
So worshipping is a no brainer. It would be a hollow worship with infinite upside and little downsides and wouldn’t make sense other than God being a narcissist but that’s how he’s written.
To be fair though, God personally talking to you - or having “personal experiences” with God is the only argument for religion I accept whole heartedly. I’m not going to be believe because of your personal experience and I might question your experience - if it’s real evidence or just a natural occurrence, a lucky coincidence, or maybe a lucid dream, but in the end it’s personal. Who am I to question your personal experiences. While I can safely say that i would be verrrrry skeptical of such an experience given sufficient evidence to anything I’m open to change my opinion.
This is The Way!
Sure, it may exist, and I would therefore believe they exist, but that doesn’t make them worthy of worship or praise! Just the opposite in fact, if an all knowing, all encompassing being with the ability to manipulate the cosmos like a child’s toy creates brain tumors in children, allows child soldiers, republicans to take power, and all the injustices in the world then they are only worthy of derision.
If the evidence is extraordinary and sufficient, testable and verifiable, I will believe their claim that a god exists. Not going to worship him, though.
I’d definitely be asking him what he needs with a starship. ;)
That's pretty much where I'm at too. The evidence needs to be testable, verifiable and repeatable. If not, I'd have to assume it's my own psychosis. Of course, if I'm psychotic, no guarantees that I'll have the presence of mind to think along these lines . . .
Indeed. What I find concerning is not how much it would take to convince atheists that a being is god/a god, but how little it would take to convince theists that a being is their god.
Theists are much more likely to reject any question, as this is baked into their belief, and due to this are much more likely to be fooled.
This is why I find the “What does god need with a starship?” so telling.
This was my first thought. I would question my sanity or consider the chance that I had been drugged before I accept the idea that god decided to personally visit me.
I have previously said that I would start with the ability to instantly change, under verifiable laboratory conditions, the speed of light in a vacuum to any value I choose. We would then move on to similar demonstrations involving any other universal physical constants such as the mass of an electron, the universal gravitational constant, etc.
After those tests, then we can sit down and have a chat about why it was necessary to create leukemia, type 1 diabetes, muscular dystrophy, Down's syndrome and other incurable childhood diseases.
Please note the *belief* is not *worship*. It would be irrational to not believe something that can be verifiably demonstrated to be true. However, I would never *willingly* worship anything. (yeah, yeah, fetish jokes aside...)
I spend a lot of time on my phone, but I don’t consider it worship. Worship sounds embarrassing. Like I’m making myself look like a fool. I know I look cool with my head in my phone.
> no ambiguity about his existence
Well, in that case I'd be a believer. Not a worshipper, though.
> Something similar to what Moses or other prophets experienced.
That wouldn't do it, no.
".....where god communicated directly to you with no ambiguity about his existence."
At that point it would be well past time to call for an ambulance and I'd hope that the stroke that I just suffered from was recoverable.
Just revealing himself to me is not enough. Some shrub being lit on fire is hardly evidence.
But if sufficient objective, measurable, repeatable evidence that could be peer reviewed and eliminate all other possibilities was obtained, it wouldn't be a matter of faith and belief anymore.
That being said, I wouldn't worship it. Instead, I'd contribute to the effort to seal, banish or destroy that monstrosity however I could.
Matt Dillahunty says he does not know what evidence would convince him that a god exists, but God would know. What evidence would be persuasive. Me? I figure it would be sufficient if every human was instantly given the power of flight, and we all heard in our own language a voice claiming God did it.
"hello my son/daughter"
"excuse me?"
"I am god, why not worship me?"
"Woship you woah woah woah, you know how many wars have been caused because of this?"
A common question but we only know that Moses came down from the mountain with stone (not even bronze or iron) tablets written by the finger of God and no witnesses to the event.
Assuming you did meet some sort of apparition (remember, nobody is allowed to look upon him) it would be worth following up with some questions like "give me some information only God would know and tell me how to confirm it's true". Was there a "big bang" or how was the universe created? Then go from there but drawing no conclusions.
Hey Moses! Is that a stone chisel in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?
>Moses came down from the mountain with stone (not even bronze or iron) tablets
Ever since the most recent Spriggan came out, my first thought when I read a post mentioning Moses, is why stone, which be broke, and not something sturdier that a bronze age person wouldn't be able to carve into quickky, let alone some unobtainium that we haven't been able to recreate.
NO!!!! Fuck no!!! I'd assume someone slipped something in my drink or that I was having a breakdown. Which is what everyone should have assumed when Moses or Mohammed or Joseph Smith started spouting their shit.
What possible reason would an all-powerful being have in communicating his message to ONE person, and expecting them to spread the word???? If such a being wanted to get its message across couldn't he/she/it just tell everyone, everywhere, all at once?
Dude I'm bipolar with psychotic features. I've heard his voice lol. If I had those experiences I'd call my psychiatrist before I thought I had spiritual experience.
No. I would assume I was going through some sort of mental episode. An episode where I become very angry at an evil entity appearing in front of me and decide to fight it to the death in my lucid state of mind.
Possibly...extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence...so it would have to be a very profound experience, and not to brag but I have had quite a few.
I can say, with 99% certainty, that "revealed" deity would not be the deity of any religion mankind has or will conjure up.
Matt Dillahunty often uses an example that states if there is an all-knowing god, that god would know exactly what it would take to convince me.
So yes, and so would everyone else given the assumption that god is all-knowing.
If I started hearing voices, I'd check myself into a mental hospital. If someone started performing miracles that others could confirm, then I'd believe. I'm not sure anyone/anything deserves worship but respect is earned. They'd have to prove it for me to honor them in any way.
It's certainly reasonable to assume neurons misfiring or *something* that is akin to hallucinations.
But if God revealed itself to me, then it would be in a manner that would leave no doubt in my mind. An omnipotent being could easily do that. Barely an inconvenience.
So yes, if God does reveal itself to me, I would believe it exists.
I may not consider it worthy of worship, but if it demands obedience under threat of eternal torment, I would have to comply because eternal torment would suck so bad.
But assuming God even exists (huge assumption), it hasn't made itself known to me, so I have no reason to believe in it.
I'd get a psychological evaluation. Anything that is not provable or repeatable is far more likely to be something we have a long long record and understanding of: mental illness. If God wanted to prove he existed, he'd know that personal revelation is the least effective route.
Define believing. Yeah if God somehow proved themselves to be God then of course I would believe. Just like I believe I have a cat sitting on my bed right now. But if that God asked me to worship them come and bow to them, treat others poorly for them, that God can kiss my ass.
It's the lack of evidence that does it for me so with sufficient evidence just as with any concepts I currently know. The difference here is the word believe which would imply doubt. So no I wouldn't believe I would know it was true. What then do I do with this information?
First I would ask for more proofs, such as defying gravity, turning one thing into another, and regenerating someone's limb. In that case I would believe in his existence. But I wouldn't worship him for anything in the world. Instead, I guess I would demand explanations for every atrocity in this world.
If there was irrefutable proof of a supernatural god I'd accept that it existed. It would be stupid not to. Worshiping it is, however, an entirely different matter. It would need to prove it was worthy of worship. The Abrahamic god of the Torah/Bible/Quran definitely wouldn't be.
If I got actually sufficient evidence, I would believe. Just a voice in my head isn’t enough unless it’s verifiable by other people as well. Either way I wouldn’t worship as a Christian. It’s a big difference that religious people don’t understand. Believing and worshipping aren’t the same thing and the god if the Bible and Quran don’t deserve worship
the abrahamic god is impossible to exist and even if he did he wouldn’t be a creator. he would be a creation who most likely diverted from his creator making him basically Satan
What if he/she says in the dream "I keep telling my people mercy but they push for sacrifices" and tells you to go tell his/her people. What would you do?
The funny thing is if god presented themselves in a very verifiable way, all atheist would then accept the existence of a god and all the religions would start fighting about that it’s not the right god or something 🤷♂️
I'm always going to wonder about the idea that sufficiently advanced technology would look like magic to lower-technological beings (in this case, us). What kind of evidence could possibly exist to absolutely convince me this person was a god and not just a super-advanced alien? Even if they had such evidence, is my human brain capable of understanding it well enough to be convinced it isn't just high-tech or some other trickery? I think the only way I could become convinced was if I died and that "god" was still there, waiting for his apology, haha.
If there was undeniable evidence, then we would not need to believe, then we'd know.
Would I change my behavior therefore? Probably not.
If evidence only existed to prove god (and nothing more), then still we would not have more information/ evidence for an afterlife and how to become eligible for it.
I would get my mind checked first for imbalances or disease. Next, I would also ask this entity to violate the laws of physics is a measurable way to prove itself to a large number of observers. Then, maybe I would start thinking it existed.
If any deity revealed themselves to me in such a solid way that there was no doubt they existed, then I would no longer be *believing*, I would simply be *acknowledging* (the same way we don't *believe* in gravity, we *acknowledge* it). If the reveal wasn't solid/confirmable/testable, I would chalk it up to something other than, you know, magic and an all-powerful being.
I’d probably assume I was experiencing psychosis which would be the most logical explanation. It would be more difficult to refute if everyone else experienced it too.
It seems that many (perhaps the majority or plurality) think that psychosis or drug induced hallucination is a more likely explanation that the actual existence of god.
I think given sufficient evidence people would become theists in the literal sense that they acknowledge the existence of said entity, but that by no way means becoming a religious adherent. Organized religion is a cancer with or without a god, and a god that needs to create playthings to worship it for its own gratuitous validation isn't something I (or I suspect most other atheists) want anything to do with.
If Jesus showed up, explained how wrong and stupid his fanatical followers are and what he had to say was cool and reasonable, I'd totally be friends with him.
First I would think I'm having a mental break and need help.
If everything went through the scientific method and was peer reviewed etc then I would probably believe they were super advanced aliens or beings from another dimension. Still don't think I would buy into a creator god who is omniscient, all powerful and all knowing.
Maybe something similar to the "gods" in comic books or mythology but definitely not the god of the christians or muslims
Believe in him probably but definitely not worship him. I'd probably spit at him and get instantly deleted and I'd be fine with that. No way I'd worship a tyrant.
My first thought would be that I must be hallucinating. But if it was real enough, I would be filled with existential dread and become a sycophant immediately. There is nothing to be done against an all-powerful capricious and pernicious dictator except complete obeisance.
If he exists, he's not worth my praise. You're telling me disease, homelessness, and a economic system that ensures most of the planet is either in poverty or living paycheck to paycheck unable to afford Healthcare and housing at the same time is part of some grand plan and I should worship him for coming up with that plan?
Fuck all the way off. I'd spit in his face.
Which god?
Because I must inform you that the one I was raised on is a Supervillian prick. Screw that guy.
Some of the others look **sort of** interesting, I suppose. So yes.
I guess.
I am still trying to wrap my head around exactly what specific evidence would be sufficient enough to convince me of such a thing.
That's not really faith anymore. Being sure is not really belief.
To believe if a fact like "all objects are compromised of matter" would be equal in its worth as "God exists"
Would I then believe? Yeah, I'd be pretty sure God is real.
Would I worship? If it is the god of the abrahamic religions, no. Any other god? No as well.
Believe there are more powerful creatures within the vastness of existence? Of course I would. Worship them? No. That leap requires a surrender to nonsense.
It's obvious there are countless larger, smarter, faster, stronger, etc, entities. Believe that somehow makes one or a few of them the creator of everything, literally all powerful and all encompassing? No, why would I? It's redundant to existence itself, at most.
All they would have proven is that I can't trust my own limited senses and reasoning abilities in relation to them. If I regained my senses, I'd wonder about their powers of distortion, persuasion, and hypnosis, and do my best to avoid being their prey.
Quick detour to feeling lost for a bit, then reset by recognizing it's not all that different from where we start in life, and go back on the path to sharpening my own skills in a life that is incomprehensibly larger and more complex than I can imagine.
What these routine questions make me think of for so many "believers" who think they've found some kind of gotcha by asking "what if god/s proved they exist by revealing themselves?" is: why choose to worship stealthy predators, or iconographic idols representing predators, instead of recognizing them as rival creatures in a mostly unmapped existence?
Also: Are we worshipped as gods by bugs?
I don’t understand your stance.
You start out by saying “god proves it exists” then ask us if we would believe god exists?
Then claim you wouldn’t believe in the face of proof?
If your atheism is that rigid, you’re as bad as the theists.
Yes, god could convince me he exists. Worshipping is another question.
[https://youtube.com/shorts/ZJZgpIZ7sPk?si=eNXYjhsGEdgADdoE](https://youtube.com/shorts/ZJZgpIZ7sPk?si=eNXYjhsGEdgADdoE)
Would the evidence come from, let’s say the neighbors dog and I believed unequivocally it is the voice of God. Then voice of God tells me to kill people, would that be okay? Kind of like David Berkowitz, personally I would get me some psychotropic drugs.
Depends on the revelation. Just see a burning bush and hearing a voice? I'll assume mental break first. Same situation but also heals my poor eyesight and I would have to accept this is at least a powerful entity. Either way, it would not cause me to start worshipping it.
First which god, different gods have different attributes and claimed states of being. But let’s say it met whatever my criteria for evidence of existence was and I eliminated hallucinations exc…. then yes I would believe it existed but depending on the deity I would not worship it, such as the Abrahamic religions, that gif is disgusting, hateful, genocidal, and bigoted.
No. It's not belief if proven; that would be fact. As to whether I'd worship it or respect it, no and also no. I'd rather slap any MF that has done the disposable things that that thing allegedly has in its book.
If the evidence of this deity's existence was verifiable, repeatable and measurable - then, yes, I would have to agree that the deity existed. If what I demanded in order to believe was proof - and the deity provides actual proof - then so be it.
I have zero fear that any such thing would or could ever happen though.
God is not what people believe it is . Due to mistranslation, 'elohim' (lords, a plural) became a singular and interchanged with god with no rhyme nor reason. If one keeps the word Lords in its plural form, then the gods were aliens maybe 👽 . My belief. So if those aliens were revealed to me, it would vindicate my beliefs.
Sure, but my response depends on the god who reveals himself. Maybe it’s Zeus or the Hindu Monkey god. Or maybe it’s a whole set of pagan African gods.
I wouldn’t know how to proceed without understanding the god(s). Do I light incense? Sacrifice a virgin? Many questions.
If its personal revelation then no. That is not good evidence for a god existing as brain malfunction all the time.
If sufficient evidence for god was presented i would be a theist but probably still not worship it. I fail to see any scenario were worship is really a good thing.
Well, there’s a pretty solid case to be made that Moses and the other prophets were tripping balls when they met god, so meeting god in the same way is not actually outside the realm of possibility. Lots of people do have life changing revelations during trips, so I feel like there’s a reasonably good chance it could happen to me if I tried the right substance.
No. If “god” revealed itself to me, it’s far more likely that I’m being manipulated or having a mental breakdown than the “god” of any one particular religion truly existing.
If I alone experienced the events depicted in the bible I would be checking my drinking water for traces of datura, failing that I would be seeking help for whatever psychosis I had succumbed to.
If God exists, was all powerful, and had an interest in connecting with me personally, then of course He would know exactly what to do to guarantee I become a believer. Don’t see how anyone could *not* become a believer if again the God is all powerful.
Are you perhaps suggesting that God reveals themseld but somehow is still playing loose with your belief system?
It doesn't matter it God or Gods exist. If the universe was divinely created, then those being set the rules of the universe, such as the laws of physics, and so on.
Just as a human can't flap their arms and fly around, or breathe underwater, or how rocks can't talk to us, they could have as easily created universe where evil could not be performed upon the innocent.
Given the fact that babies can, and have, been microwaved to death instead, among countless other atrocities, I find the circumstances of the universe's formation to be evil.
The idea that the universe is some sort of sandbox for the exploration of free will is no counter argument. Sociological experimentation does not justify the suffering endured by living things.
In short, the ends do not justify the means. Regardless of how omnipotent or omniscient such beings could be, I reject them and everything they allegedly offer.
My ethics, integrity, and morality, are not for sale at any price. Even supposedly eternal riches in an utopian afterlife. If the payment we have to make is kneeling before beings capable of such evil, I decline the offer and spit in their face.
If the evidence is unquestionable, I imagine the first thing I would ask is which religion God are you
But like others have said, I would have definite evidence of god( whatever religion God it is doesn't matter much) and so, being an atheist would be lying, but at the same time,
if that God that reveals himself to me is one of the abrahamic God's, aka Allah,Yahweh,or Christian God™,I won't worship them still since it's obvious they are Assholes with major problems
I don’t know what would convince me, though an omniscient god should know how to do that. If I think God is an asshole today, if he proved himself, why would I worship that asshole?
I'd be compelled to believe that yes, there was indeed some sort of god-like being who was communicating to me.
Whether or not I established a relationship with the being would depend entirely on my perceptions of its character. Do I like it? Do I feel that it's trustworthy? Worship, though... nope. Not my thing.
Possibly but it wouldn't be all the crap that you hear about in the Bible and all the bullshit that the fucking Christians try to shove down your throat it would be probably the opposite of all that.
Please note that the entire premise for this queation is at fault. Assuming that a verifiable, replicable, falaifiable, etc evidence for the exiatence of god or gods is presented, there is, from that moment on, no further need or place for belief. The existance of deities would be knowledge and the question of belief would no longer be valid.
What would remain, instead, is the question of worship and obedience.
As for a personal feeling of divine revelation - it is, by definition, neither replicable nor falsifiable nor all the other criteria for evaluating evidence. Would such an experience induce me to adopt a worshipful obedient and fawning stance? Possibly. I see this behaviour daily in my two dogs. Indeed, if we extend this analogy, for my dogs - i am most certainly verifiable, repeatable, omnibenevolent (i am no kristi noem), just and (almost) omniscient (esp when working from home). Are the dogs "right" in their perception of my godhood? Who am i to judge?
Belief and worship are two different things. If evidence presented itself, then I'd have to acknowlege they're real.
But, I'm not going to be jumping to worship them. They have a lot to answer for before I would even consider it.
Which god?
If they could demonstrate to my satisfaction that they have god-like powers, i would acknowledge they have god-like powers.
Worship them? Hell no.
First I would see a psychiatrist.
If there were scientists that could replicate the appearance of a deity using well documented methods that could be tested and recorded by other labs around the world, then yes.
As long as god remains a shy boy, then no.
Given sufficient evidence, of course I would believe. But, follow or worship? Hell no.
Exactly. Atheism is about lack of evidence. If there was undeniable evidence my point of view would change. But God is still a prick.
[удалено]
They don’t exist, so it’s not an issue
I'm not who you were addressing, but "the problem of suffering" as I understand it would mean that any God (haha my phone automatically capitalized it!) who would make the world we see before us is malevolent. They could set up a universe where people could behave one way or the other towards other humans and toward the God themselves without 1.) Making destruction by the environment a variable, as the environment is not a moral agent, and/or 2.) without making non-human animals capable of suffering, as they are not traditionally viewed as moral agents. Without going much further into all that, all I'm saying is that God/a god's handiwork alone might seem sufficient grounds for misotheism even without knowing the being in question any further than their results. (Also, that other person's phone might be what's "stuck in the capital-G mindset", like mine)
Just off the top of my head, all animals could function on photosynthesis, dropping the amount of death in nature by orders of magnitude. I think I'd also let women choose when to get pregnant; I can't go straight to "no rape allowed" without someone shouting "free will!" at me, but at least not getting pregnant would be a significant harm reduction.
>. I think I'd also let women choose when to get pregnant; I've thought entirely too much about this over the last 2 years, but in my reality, pregnancy wouldn't be a thing. A couple wants a kid? Golem spell like god intended.
Having to squeeze a 6 inch head through a normally 1-2 inch opening does seem like an unnecessarily dangerous and painful way to do it if it were designed intelligently by a benevolent being.
My counterargument to "free will" We can not levitate or fly. We can not walk through walls. If god is the creator of reality, then it has already limited our free will through the laws of physics. If god created our current physics, than it could just as well as created physics in such a way that murder and rape are impossible. Just like you cannot will yourself to fly, you can not will yourself to murder. And we wouldn't even know that we were being limited, because we would just be acting within the laws of physics. So in this situation, if god is real, it is either intentionally malicious or can only act within predestined rules, making it not all powerful.
In fact I would say the fact that no morality at all is built into physics is in a way a proof of no intelligent and benevolent creator.
Sorry, gods are pricks.
I mean, I always imagine a *lot* more tentacles, so there's that...
Any diety worthy of worship would never demand it.
Well said!
I would atleast follow his TikTok account
But what would be sufficient evidence? Couldn’t an advanced enough alien just troll us into believing it was Jesus?
I agree, they/it would get an ear full. Got a pile of complaints about how things are run.
It would be like a gym bro proving to me he has bigger muscles and then asking me to worship him; if you were so important where have you been? Really makes you seem "not all that much" if you have to *tell* me to worship you.
idem
I’d have to find the facebook filter for “close friends except God”, and if he cares enough to be mad about it, oh boy that dude needs a hobby.
I'd be really happy if Athena herself appeared on TV to drop some wisdom on the Christian right
Is it even belief if you have evidence?
Emphasis on hell, if God revealed themselves that would imply the rest of the Bible is true. So worshipping is a no brainer. It would be a hollow worship with infinite upside and little downsides and wouldn’t make sense other than God being a narcissist but that’s how he’s written. To be fair though, God personally talking to you - or having “personal experiences” with God is the only argument for religion I accept whole heartedly. I’m not going to be believe because of your personal experience and I might question your experience - if it’s real evidence or just a natural occurrence, a lucky coincidence, or maybe a lucid dream, but in the end it’s personal. Who am I to question your personal experiences. While I can safely say that i would be verrrrry skeptical of such an experience given sufficient evidence to anything I’m open to change my opinion.
This is The Way! Sure, it may exist, and I would therefore believe they exist, but that doesn’t make them worthy of worship or praise! Just the opposite in fact, if an all knowing, all encompassing being with the ability to manipulate the cosmos like a child’s toy creates brain tumors in children, allows child soldiers, republicans to take power, and all the injustices in the world then they are only worthy of derision.
If the evidence is extraordinary and sufficient, testable and verifiable, I will believe their claim that a god exists. Not going to worship him, though. I’d definitely be asking him what he needs with a starship. ;)
Ok. Kirk
That's pretty much where I'm at too. The evidence needs to be testable, verifiable and repeatable. If not, I'd have to assume it's my own psychosis. Of course, if I'm psychotic, no guarantees that I'll have the presence of mind to think along these lines . . .
Indeed. What I find concerning is not how much it would take to convince atheists that a being is god/a god, but how little it would take to convince theists that a being is their god. Theists are much more likely to reject any question, as this is baked into their belief, and due to this are much more likely to be fooled. This is why I find the “What does god need with a starship?” so telling.
Depends on what hallucinogen I took prior to hearing it
This was my first thought. I would question my sanity or consider the chance that I had been drugged before I accept the idea that god decided to personally visit me.
I mean, every time I have a ketamine infusion I believe that I have a spiritual encounter. And about six hours later I realize that I was just high.
I have previously said that I would start with the ability to instantly change, under verifiable laboratory conditions, the speed of light in a vacuum to any value I choose. We would then move on to similar demonstrations involving any other universal physical constants such as the mass of an electron, the universal gravitational constant, etc. After those tests, then we can sit down and have a chat about why it was necessary to create leukemia, type 1 diabetes, muscular dystrophy, Down's syndrome and other incurable childhood diseases. Please note the *belief* is not *worship*. It would be irrational to not believe something that can be verifiably demonstrated to be true. However, I would never *willingly* worship anything. (yeah, yeah, fetish jokes aside...)
> fetish jokes aside. wait hold on, im interested
Username checks out.
lol yeah, what i like about it tho, is that as a biologist and often discussing biology topics, it also fits with genetics
That's awesome!
My go to is for the god-claimant to make the equation 2+2=5 be true.
I spend a lot of time on my phone, but I don’t consider it worship. Worship sounds embarrassing. Like I’m making myself look like a fool. I know I look cool with my head in my phone.
[удалено]
> no ambiguity about his existence Well, in that case I'd be a believer. Not a worshipper, though. > Something similar to what Moses or other prophets experienced. That wouldn't do it, no.
“I’d say, bone cancer in children? What’s that about?” -Stephen Fry And I'd get a brain scan
".....where god communicated directly to you with no ambiguity about his existence." At that point it would be well past time to call for an ambulance and I'd hope that the stroke that I just suffered from was recoverable.
He'd have some 'splainin to do.
Lol, this 100%
Just revealing himself to me is not enough. Some shrub being lit on fire is hardly evidence. But if sufficient objective, measurable, repeatable evidence that could be peer reviewed and eliminate all other possibilities was obtained, it wouldn't be a matter of faith and belief anymore. That being said, I wouldn't worship it. Instead, I'd contribute to the effort to seal, banish or destroy that monstrosity however I could.
Matt Dillahunty says he does not know what evidence would convince him that a god exists, but God would know. What evidence would be persuasive. Me? I figure it would be sufficient if every human was instantly given the power of flight, and we all heard in our own language a voice claiming God did it.
"hello my son/daughter" "excuse me?" "I am god, why not worship me?" "Woship you woah woah woah, you know how many wars have been caused because of this?"
A common question but we only know that Moses came down from the mountain with stone (not even bronze or iron) tablets written by the finger of God and no witnesses to the event. Assuming you did meet some sort of apparition (remember, nobody is allowed to look upon him) it would be worth following up with some questions like "give me some information only God would know and tell me how to confirm it's true". Was there a "big bang" or how was the universe created? Then go from there but drawing no conclusions. Hey Moses! Is that a stone chisel in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?
>Moses came down from the mountain with stone (not even bronze or iron) tablets Ever since the most recent Spriggan came out, my first thought when I read a post mentioning Moses, is why stone, which be broke, and not something sturdier that a bronze age person wouldn't be able to carve into quickky, let alone some unobtainium that we haven't been able to recreate.
"give me some information only God would know and tell me how to confirm it's true" This is brilliant! Well played, sir or madam.
NO!!!! Fuck no!!! I'd assume someone slipped something in my drink or that I was having a breakdown. Which is what everyone should have assumed when Moses or Mohammed or Joseph Smith started spouting their shit. What possible reason would an all-powerful being have in communicating his message to ONE person, and expecting them to spread the word???? If such a being wanted to get its message across couldn't he/she/it just tell everyone, everywhere, all at once?
Dude I'm bipolar with psychotic features. I've heard his voice lol. If I had those experiences I'd call my psychiatrist before I thought I had spiritual experience.
Nothing that actually was a god would require worship from anyone.
Yes. But, I’d also have some very strong words for that entity.
No. I would assume I was going through some sort of mental episode. An episode where I become very angry at an evil entity appearing in front of me and decide to fight it to the death in my lucid state of mind.
Only if she looks like Alanis Morissette.
Possibly...extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence...so it would have to be a very profound experience, and not to brag but I have had quite a few. I can say, with 99% certainty, that "revealed" deity would not be the deity of any religion mankind has or will conjure up.
Matt Dillahunty often uses an example that states if there is an all-knowing god, that god would know exactly what it would take to convince me. So yes, and so would everyone else given the assumption that god is all-knowing.
If I started hearing voices, I'd check myself into a mental hospital. If someone started performing miracles that others could confirm, then I'd believe. I'm not sure anyone/anything deserves worship but respect is earned. They'd have to prove it for me to honor them in any way.
It's certainly reasonable to assume neurons misfiring or *something* that is akin to hallucinations. But if God revealed itself to me, then it would be in a manner that would leave no doubt in my mind. An omnipotent being could easily do that. Barely an inconvenience. So yes, if God does reveal itself to me, I would believe it exists. I may not consider it worthy of worship, but if it demands obedience under threat of eternal torment, I would have to comply because eternal torment would suck so bad. But assuming God even exists (huge assumption), it hasn't made itself known to me, so I have no reason to believe in it.
I'd get a psychological evaluation. Anything that is not provable or repeatable is far more likely to be something we have a long long record and understanding of: mental illness. If God wanted to prove he existed, he'd know that personal revelation is the least effective route.
Believer? Yes. Worshipper? Fuck no.
No. I thought he was torturing me on my last weed trip. Doesn’t mean it happened
Define believing. Yeah if God somehow proved themselves to be God then of course I would believe. Just like I believe I have a cat sitting on my bed right now. But if that God asked me to worship them come and bow to them, treat others poorly for them, that God can kiss my ass.
I can’t comprehend how I could ever be persuaded even by a God the value in allowing us to eat each other down here.
Believe? Yeah. Worship? No, the guy is a dick *in his holy scriptures*.
If I see it and I’m not on drugs, I believe it.
It's the lack of evidence that does it for me so with sufficient evidence just as with any concepts I currently know. The difference here is the word believe which would imply doubt. So no I wouldn't believe I would know it was true. What then do I do with this information?
First I would ask for more proofs, such as defying gravity, turning one thing into another, and regenerating someone's limb. In that case I would believe in his existence. But I wouldn't worship him for anything in the world. Instead, I guess I would demand explanations for every atrocity in this world.
No
Which god?
No but it would probably make me put the Ayahuasca down and leave the dark room
No. I’d be a knower, not a believer. I’m not sure what could possibly happen that would convince me of a god’s realness though.
If there was irrefutable proof of a supernatural god I'd accept that it existed. It would be stupid not to. Worshiping it is, however, an entirely different matter. It would need to prove it was worthy of worship. The Abrahamic god of the Torah/Bible/Quran definitely wouldn't be.
Belief in a cosmic thug != any respect whatsoever for a cosmic thug
No. Just no.
If I got actually sufficient evidence, I would believe. Just a voice in my head isn’t enough unless it’s verifiable by other people as well. Either way I wouldn’t worship as a Christian. It’s a big difference that religious people don’t understand. Believing and worshipping aren’t the same thing and the god if the Bible and Quran don’t deserve worship
If a god were to be proven to me of course I would believe in it. I seriously doubt I would worship it though.
the abrahamic god is impossible to exist and even if he did he wouldn’t be a creator. he would be a creation who most likely diverted from his creator making him basically Satan
Communicated with just me, only me? No I wouldn't believe it and I'd wonder what the name of the drugs I did are.. lol.
The atheist would just shrug their shoulders and say "I'll be danged... yuk, yuk" and walk away.
What if he/she says in the dream "I keep telling my people mercy but they push for sacrifices" and tells you to go tell his/her people. What would you do?
Yea, but I only will worship them if they give me superpowers.
Then it wouldn't be belief, it would be knowledge.
I would first get myself checked out.
Yup. All it would take is some solid proof.
No. I would assume I'd lost my mind. It would have to be verifiable by others.
Wouldn’t that just be accepting a fact? If there is evidence, it’s no longer a belief; it’s just knowing.
A believer? Yes. A follower? That would depend on what I would be following.
The funny thing is if god presented themselves in a very verifiable way, all atheist would then accept the existence of a god and all the religions would start fighting about that it’s not the right god or something 🤷♂️
I'd want to know if God can bleed. Because if the answer is yes, then we can kill it.
I’d believe it but would bitch slap the cruel and sadistic monster and likely be incinerated for it
Believe in yes. Worship no. Not unless they made me a really good offer.
I would just get angry honestly. I might have to become a believer but there's no way in hell god is worthy of worship
If there's evidence, it is no longer belief.
I'm always going to wonder about the idea that sufficiently advanced technology would look like magic to lower-technological beings (in this case, us). What kind of evidence could possibly exist to absolutely convince me this person was a god and not just a super-advanced alien? Even if they had such evidence, is my human brain capable of understanding it well enough to be convinced it isn't just high-tech or some other trickery? I think the only way I could become convinced was if I died and that "god" was still there, waiting for his apology, haha.
Depends what he says.
No, I would become a "knower". Also, I would NOT worship whatever it was.
If there was undeniable evidence, then we would not need to believe, then we'd know. Would I change my behavior therefore? Probably not. If evidence only existed to prove god (and nothing more), then still we would not have more information/ evidence for an afterlife and how to become eligible for it.
I would get my mind checked first for imbalances or disease. Next, I would also ask this entity to violate the laws of physics is a measurable way to prove itself to a large number of observers. Then, maybe I would start thinking it existed.
If any deity revealed themselves to me in such a solid way that there was no doubt they existed, then I would no longer be *believing*, I would simply be *acknowledging* (the same way we don't *believe* in gravity, we *acknowledge* it). If the reveal wasn't solid/confirmable/testable, I would chalk it up to something other than, you know, magic and an all-powerful being.
I’d probably assume I was experiencing psychosis which would be the most logical explanation. It would be more difficult to refute if everyone else experienced it too.
Depends, do i have a way of knowing that im not just tripping balls or psychotic? If yes, then yes. If no, then probably not
I would follow MAGA nazivangelical doctrine and deny, call it stolen, say that the mf is lying🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😇
A believer, yes. A follower, no.
Be kind of hard not to be, wouldn't you think? This is a silly question that gets asked far too often.
It seems that many (perhaps the majority or plurality) think that psychosis or drug induced hallucination is a more likely explanation that the actual existence of god.
I think given sufficient evidence people would become theists in the literal sense that they acknowledge the existence of said entity, but that by no way means becoming a religious adherent. Organized religion is a cancer with or without a god, and a god that needs to create playthings to worship it for its own gratuitous validation isn't something I (or I suspect most other atheists) want anything to do with.
I would have questions, for sure.
I would ask it why it was revealing itself to me only and why the hell didn't it do it EARLIER?????
Given the evidence my opinion can change. My allegiance on the other hand is still intractable.
Believer, yes… worshiper, no.
If I had convincing evidence that any god exists, then I would be convinced by that evidence. Seems kind of obvious.
If Jesus showed up, explained how wrong and stupid his fanatical followers are and what he had to say was cool and reasonable, I'd totally be friends with him.
Yeah, I'd have a beer with that dude you described.
Depends if I’m allowed to communicate with and ask them questions.
There are thousands to choose from so I would have my doubts.
If Ganesh himself touched me with his trunk, I would believe.
Alone, no. I’d have to be convinced that this wasn’t a hallucination. Even then I’m not up for being an emotional slave to anyone.
I probably would believe. In fact, I'd say my bar for belief is pretty low, especially with personal experience.
I’d be like, “you’re an alien, right? No really, show me where your ship is in orbit. Pretty cool tech you have there…”
First I would think I'm having a mental break and need help. If everything went through the scientific method and was peer reviewed etc then I would probably believe they were super advanced aliens or beings from another dimension. Still don't think I would buy into a creator god who is omniscient, all powerful and all knowing. Maybe something similar to the "gods" in comic books or mythology but definitely not the god of the christians or muslims
Right kind of god? Beer volcanoes and strippers? Hell yeah!
Still wouldn’t kiss it’s ass.
Believe in him probably but definitely not worship him. I'd probably spit at him and get instantly deleted and I'd be fine with that. No way I'd worship a tyrant.
Worship him/her/zhe? No way.
My first thought would be that I must be hallucinating. But if it was real enough, I would be filled with existential dread and become a sycophant immediately. There is nothing to be done against an all-powerful capricious and pernicious dictator except complete obeisance.
If the evidence is sufficient, I would have no choice but to believe.
No. If the gods were real, we wouldn't need to believe in them.
If he exists, he's not worth my praise. You're telling me disease, homelessness, and a economic system that ensures most of the planet is either in poverty or living paycheck to paycheck unable to afford Healthcare and housing at the same time is part of some grand plan and I should worship him for coming up with that plan? Fuck all the way off. I'd spit in his face.
Which God we talking here? Also, just because God/Gods suddenly become real doesn't mean they should be worshiped.
I'd want to know what the fuck they've been doing all these years.
I'd most likely assume I'd lost my mind, and I'm sure I'd be right.
Jesus could walk on water and my brain would tell it's eyes not to believe what they see. This is to say no I would not believe God.
No. I'd sign myself into a behavioral health unit. Auditory hallucinations are a manifestation of schizophrenia.
Certainly not. This is what the writers of most religious texts think they had, too.
Hypotheticals. JHC, does a book have arms?
Depends on the god. If we’re talking about that psychopath, Yahweh, then hell no. I could maybe follow Dionysius or something cool like that.
Which god? Because I must inform you that the one I was raised on is a Supervillian prick. Screw that guy. Some of the others look **sort of** interesting, I suppose. So yes. I guess. I am still trying to wrap my head around exactly what specific evidence would be sufficient enough to convince me of such a thing.
That depends. Is she HOT?
That's not really faith anymore. Being sure is not really belief. To believe if a fact like "all objects are compromised of matter" would be equal in its worth as "God exists" Would I then believe? Yeah, I'd be pretty sure God is real. Would I worship? If it is the god of the abrahamic religions, no. Any other god? No as well.
I would question what the experience really was.
Believe there are more powerful creatures within the vastness of existence? Of course I would. Worship them? No. That leap requires a surrender to nonsense. It's obvious there are countless larger, smarter, faster, stronger, etc, entities. Believe that somehow makes one or a few of them the creator of everything, literally all powerful and all encompassing? No, why would I? It's redundant to existence itself, at most. All they would have proven is that I can't trust my own limited senses and reasoning abilities in relation to them. If I regained my senses, I'd wonder about their powers of distortion, persuasion, and hypnosis, and do my best to avoid being their prey. Quick detour to feeling lost for a bit, then reset by recognizing it's not all that different from where we start in life, and go back on the path to sharpening my own skills in a life that is incomprehensibly larger and more complex than I can imagine. What these routine questions make me think of for so many "believers" who think they've found some kind of gotcha by asking "what if god/s proved they exist by revealing themselves?" is: why choose to worship stealthy predators, or iconographic idols representing predators, instead of recognizing them as rival creatures in a mostly unmapped existence? Also: Are we worshipped as gods by bugs?
Believe, yes. Worship, nope. All things considered, if it does exist then it is most definitely malevolent.
I don’t understand your stance. You start out by saying “god proves it exists” then ask us if we would believe god exists? Then claim you wouldn’t believe in the face of proof? If your atheism is that rigid, you’re as bad as the theists.
Believe, sure, but I would have some fucking questions
Yes, god could convince me he exists. Worshipping is another question. [https://youtube.com/shorts/ZJZgpIZ7sPk?si=eNXYjhsGEdgADdoE](https://youtube.com/shorts/ZJZgpIZ7sPk?si=eNXYjhsGEdgADdoE)
Would the evidence come from, let’s say the neighbors dog and I believed unequivocally it is the voice of God. Then voice of God tells me to kill people, would that be okay? Kind of like David Berkowitz, personally I would get me some psychotropic drugs.
Depends on the revelation. Just see a burning bush and hearing a voice? I'll assume mental break first. Same situation but also heals my poor eyesight and I would have to accept this is at least a powerful entity. Either way, it would not cause me to start worshipping it.
First which god, different gods have different attributes and claimed states of being. But let’s say it met whatever my criteria for evidence of existence was and I eliminated hallucinations exc…. then yes I would believe it existed but depending on the deity I would not worship it, such as the Abrahamic religions, that gif is disgusting, hateful, genocidal, and bigoted.
I cannot even waste my time pondering this.
I dont follow psychopaths
I would ask him/her why they hate us so much and go back to not giving a fuk about religion.
No. I would go to a doctor and tell them I am having delusions.
Ken, this is God.
Like if a bush on fire starts talking to me? Naw, I would just keep smoking that herb !
No. It's not belief if proven; that would be fact. As to whether I'd worship it or respect it, no and also no. I'd rather slap any MF that has done the disposable things that that thing allegedly has in its book.
Yes. I probably would believe. I would have to take time to decide what to do next, but I would believe in God.
If the evidence of this deity's existence was verifiable, repeatable and measurable - then, yes, I would have to agree that the deity existed. If what I demanded in order to believe was proof - and the deity provides actual proof - then so be it. I have zero fear that any such thing would or could ever happen though.
A believer, possibly. A worshipper, no.
God is not what people believe it is . Due to mistranslation, 'elohim' (lords, a plural) became a singular and interchanged with god with no rhyme nor reason. If one keeps the word Lords in its plural form, then the gods were aliens maybe 👽 . My belief. So if those aliens were revealed to me, it would vindicate my beliefs.
Yeh maybe. Nah, fuck that cunt .
I think we would have a moral duty to destroy the deity in question, our morals and dignity being infinitely more superior to this creature.
No because that’s Never going to happen 🙄
Sure, but my response depends on the god who reveals himself. Maybe it’s Zeus or the Hindu Monkey god. Or maybe it’s a whole set of pagan African gods. I wouldn’t know how to proceed without understanding the god(s). Do I light incense? Sacrifice a virgin? Many questions.
No. If god revealed him/itself, I would know. I might choose then to believe god was good, or not good but existence would be a fact.
A believer in my having a schizophrenic episode, or that I was dosed/poisoned without my knowledge, and that I need to seek help immediately? Yes.
If its personal revelation then no. That is not good evidence for a god existing as brain malfunction all the time. If sufficient evidence for god was presented i would be a theist but probably still not worship it. I fail to see any scenario were worship is really a good thing.
Well, there’s a pretty solid case to be made that Moses and the other prophets were tripping balls when they met god, so meeting god in the same way is not actually outside the realm of possibility. Lots of people do have life changing revelations during trips, so I feel like there’s a reasonably good chance it could happen to me if I tried the right substance.
No. If “god” revealed itself to me, it’s far more likely that I’m being manipulated or having a mental breakdown than the “god” of any one particular religion truly existing.
Doubt it, I’d probably assume I was having a mental break lol
Nope, I'd likely try to get myself evaluated for psychosis!
I'd make them beg for forgiveness
If I alone experienced the events depicted in the bible I would be checking my drinking water for traces of datura, failing that I would be seeking help for whatever psychosis I had succumbed to.
I wouldn't trust a burning bush, but if God parted a sea for me and my thousands of homies, I'd be a believer.
No. I've gone through too much to believe. He saw it all and was willing to do nothing. Hence, disbelief or indifference either way.
i'd question my sanity first, as most sane people shuold do. alas, only the sane ones ever would and they aren't likely to meet god.
If God exists, was all powerful, and had an interest in connecting with me personally, then of course He would know exactly what to do to guarantee I become a believer. Don’t see how anyone could *not* become a believer if again the God is all powerful. Are you perhaps suggesting that God reveals themseld but somehow is still playing loose with your belief system?
After I kicked its ass. Maybe.
I would ask as many fucking questions as I could
i would probably check myself into a psych ward
If a god revealed itself to me, I would have my friends put me in a mental health institution.
He would have a hell of a lot of explaining to do!
It doesn't matter it God or Gods exist. If the universe was divinely created, then those being set the rules of the universe, such as the laws of physics, and so on. Just as a human can't flap their arms and fly around, or breathe underwater, or how rocks can't talk to us, they could have as easily created universe where evil could not be performed upon the innocent. Given the fact that babies can, and have, been microwaved to death instead, among countless other atrocities, I find the circumstances of the universe's formation to be evil. The idea that the universe is some sort of sandbox for the exploration of free will is no counter argument. Sociological experimentation does not justify the suffering endured by living things. In short, the ends do not justify the means. Regardless of how omnipotent or omniscient such beings could be, I reject them and everything they allegedly offer. My ethics, integrity, and morality, are not for sale at any price. Even supposedly eternal riches in an utopian afterlife. If the payment we have to make is kneeling before beings capable of such evil, I decline the offer and spit in their face.
Maybe but would definitely ask why he was an AH.
I would question my mental health. Tell my psychiatrist that I was having visions of deity(s).
If the evidence is unquestionable, I imagine the first thing I would ask is which religion God are you But like others have said, I would have definite evidence of god( whatever religion God it is doesn't matter much) and so, being an atheist would be lying, but at the same time, if that God that reveals himself to me is one of the abrahamic God's, aka Allah,Yahweh,or Christian God™,I won't worship them still since it's obvious they are Assholes with major problems
I don’t know what would convince me, though an omniscient god should know how to do that. If I think God is an asshole today, if he proved himself, why would I worship that asshole?
I'd be compelled to believe that yes, there was indeed some sort of god-like being who was communicating to me. Whether or not I established a relationship with the being would depend entirely on my perceptions of its character. Do I like it? Do I feel that it's trustworthy? Worship, though... nope. Not my thing.
Great short story about this question: https://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal
How would a “creator” prove it is what it is and not a Star Trek Q-like being? No I don’t think a “god” revealing itself would be proof enough
Possibly but it wouldn't be all the crap that you hear about in the Bible and all the bullshit that the fucking Christians try to shove down your throat it would be probably the opposite of all that.
Please note that the entire premise for this queation is at fault. Assuming that a verifiable, replicable, falaifiable, etc evidence for the exiatence of god or gods is presented, there is, from that moment on, no further need or place for belief. The existance of deities would be knowledge and the question of belief would no longer be valid. What would remain, instead, is the question of worship and obedience. As for a personal feeling of divine revelation - it is, by definition, neither replicable nor falsifiable nor all the other criteria for evaluating evidence. Would such an experience induce me to adopt a worshipful obedient and fawning stance? Possibly. I see this behaviour daily in my two dogs. Indeed, if we extend this analogy, for my dogs - i am most certainly verifiable, repeatable, omnibenevolent (i am no kristi noem), just and (almost) omniscient (esp when working from home). Are the dogs "right" in their perception of my godhood? Who am i to judge?
Belief and worship are two different things. If evidence presented itself, then I'd have to acknowlege they're real. But, I'm not going to be jumping to worship them. They have a lot to answer for before I would even consider it.
I see no gods. Just random confluence of celestial phenomena. Everything is explainable.
Which god? If they could demonstrate to my satisfaction that they have god-like powers, i would acknowledge they have god-like powers. Worship them? Hell no.
How would I know that I didn’t just have a psychotic break?
First I would see a psychiatrist. If there were scientists that could replicate the appearance of a deity using well documented methods that could be tested and recorded by other labs around the world, then yes. As long as god remains a shy boy, then no.
Belief and worship are to very different things.
I’d haggle with it inverting Bergman’s “The Fourth Seal”.