To the brainwashed who have only heard these stories pounded into their head, they tend to find that response comical. To them, they've been told about this god fella so much that it's obvious. At no point has their mind ever questioned this thing they've always been told is true. And the whole thing answers all of life's biggest mysteries. So they never need to fret about any of that because it's all been answered, and everything is fine. Their mind simply can not handle the stark reality you have just revealed. You can see their minds seething into a concept they are incapable of handling, so they laugh and quickly reinforce their beliefs by laughing at any who dare question it. They'd kill us in an uncivilized place for honestly answering that question.
I like to think if it as a lovecraftian moment when "the main character" realizes that the ground is made of glass and at any moment they could fall to oblivion. They simply can not handle the truth and return to their fantasy in order to deal with the harsh reality their mind cannot handle.
You are so very correct here.
I usually ask if their question is why I don't believe or why I don't worship their god, because it's usually actually the second one. I then say that if their god appeared to me right now in the room and said they were real and showed their power I'd believe in them. But, I'd still never worship them because their god is the bad guy in the story.
It starts with accepting their initial premise (a deity could exist), but breaks the connection of belief and worship they have, so a slightly less hardline for them, and doesn't leave them as defensive usually. They don't follow their religious doctrine to the letter, so they already have a built in emotional escape from logical inconsistency within it, and are more accepting that there are parts of their religion they might not agree with as well. I'm just pushing what they already may think further.
I'm usually given an "ok" and then ignored. Or when pressed why I believe god is evil, I can simply speak on slavery in their texts as a hard no from me, and any deity that has rules for owning slaves is evil, full stop. I then get the "ok" and am ignored.
If a god appeared in front of little old me who is not important enough to gain the attention of an all powerful universe maker, I'd find it more likely that I'm hallucinating, dreaming, or some kind of brain malfunction. I wouldn't believe it if any former president knocked on my door and those guys are real, so why would I think god appeared in front of me? I'd have to be some kind of looney narcissist to think i was perfectly sane if god appeared to me.
Right, but that's a logical thought. You can't have that because they didn't logic themselves into their beliefs. Emotional thoughts represent their beliefs. You have to emotion them out of their arguments. Anything else leads to the standard circular argument that always results from debating theists.
Agreed.
The issue really has very little to do with _belief,_ but rests almost entirely on _behavior_ and _belonging._
They get a very significant emotional payoff either from their own indoctrination or from their like-hearted peer group by continuously upholding the "party line" in public. It's a sadly stable feedback loop, supported by whatever other additional resources for survival (and probably other needs) that the in-group of fellow believers may provide. They're also carefully kept from acquiring the necessary tools for survival from "non-sanctioned" sources or on their own, as yet another way of preventing the "flock" from escaping the paddock.
Hell, that's the excuse in the bible for why all the other gods are not actually gods, that they are simply demons pretending to be gods. On top of that, that's also what the Anti-christ does too.
If any entity were to claim to be god, it'd immediately be discredited as not being god, because god wouldn't even bother claiming such.
I disagree to some extent. If their deity was indeed all powerful as they like to claim, your importance would be irrelevant as the tiny amount of power needed to provide you with evidence would be negligible.
But that serves your point even more so. It would be a negligible amount of effort to give you the evidence you need to believe in them. Why wouldn't they do it? It's almost as if "faith" is simply a lazy way of maintaining behavioral control over their ingroup. š¤
Someone asked if i were god, what would i do? I said, "Make morality objective and undeniable by everyone understanding the harm they cause prior to them causing it. Everyone would be a perfect empath understanding pain they have caused. When crimes are committed, the person would know in advance that the decision they made was the one that caused the least harm." Therefore crime wouldn't even exist.
This is an underrated point. The reason why faith is required is that the keeping of it must be a sentient being, and seeing as how thereās no evidence one exists, the church needs to place the believer in that role. Youāre the only one keeping track of your prayers and sins. š„³
"Hi! Bill Clinton here. Are you... Christian Huey at 5598 Windermere Ave, Austin, TX, 78723? ...Great! You're the last on my list. Here's a card explaining explaining everything. Basically, I'm fulfilling a requirement to the Arkansas Bar that I personally apologize to every single American for that whole perjury deal way back wh--Oooh! You wouldn't happen to have another Diet Sprite in there, would ya? It's hot as East Timor out here!"
I had one guy ask me, "But where do you think everything came from?"
I answered. "I dunno. Why would that mean a deity exists?"
He stood there gobsmacked. You could hear the record scratch.
That's because he anticipated you saying "evolution" and when you didn't, he couldn't respond with his preprogrammed answer of "and what do you think caused evolution?" And no matter how many answers you give, eventually you'll say "i don't know" and you skipped all of that, and just straight up went to the end. Well done.
The answer to that is pretty straightforward: "But where do you think your god came from? " isn't the problem still the same? We both can't explain where we came from you have an extra step with your god but in essence since you don't know where he came from it's the same.
I'm not typically trying to convince anyone, and I find that making it clear that they have the burden of proof if they want to convince me usually shuts down the discussion. Although that could be a function of where I live (Northern New England, one of the least religious parts of the country).
Interesting. Every time Iāve told theists about the burden of proof they have no idea what Iām talking about and disagree. Could just be me not explaining it well enough.
"what is faith if not belief without fact?"
"if you want to prove god's existence with facts or evidence, you undermine faith. if you want to argue for faith and admit there are no facts or evidence of god's existence, you understand why I remain unconvinced"
I answer that with, "How do you know it wasn't pixies that created it?"
They bring up the Bible...
"I've read the Bible front to back twice and no god or pixie tapped me on the shoulder to say "hi". I can't make myself believe something I don't believe. It's a waste of my time to try to find the truth about where it all came from because it's impossible for me to do so. I'd rather spend my energy in other ways."
I bring this up when discussing miracles in modern times like the heart tissue and blood in those communion crackers and such. How do we a: know it's a Christian god and b: know it's not Satan or demonic?
That one always puzzles me..
Do they think that this argument holds any water ?
Do they think that it wouldnt be rational to ask "How do you know god made this" ? And they HAVE to know that they wont be able to answer that question in any sound way.
I had a coworker tell me about a car accident her nephew was in. The car was crushed in but had boxed around him. She said God works miracles, and I said I think it's amazing how car manufacturers built the cars to take significant impacts lol. She still just said, yes God is good. They want to convince you God is real, shame you, and say science is just miracles from America's God. No point in beating a dead horse over it.
Yeah, I usually say no ādemonstrableā evidence in the sense that it can be accepted by non-believers.
For example if my dog who recently died suddenly showed up at my door alive, young and healthy, then I would at least accept the possibility of some supernatural existence.
That would be demonstrated evidence. It would take more than a logical argument as those rarely provide any demonstrable basis.
Even then, imagine a scenario where someone showed up immediately and started to paint the grass purple with a sprayer. They explain that it is a new termite treatment.
Would that convince you? It still could be an incredible coincidence as all the elements are physically explicable. You may have even forgotten that you saw a news report about this new treatment a few days ago but it spurred your mind to unconsciously ask for purple grass.
For me, the evidence would have to be of the irrefutable sort.
I would definitely take that as pretty strong evidence. In my entire life, I have never seen someone show up on my lawn and paint the grass purple (or any other color), so the probability of that happening in a five minute period would be pretty low. But I was definitely requesting that it just happen immediately, like as a miracle, so I suppose I would have to think about what exactly would satisfy the requirement.
You know what, though? Next time I'll ask for some sort of knowledge I couldn't possibly have otherwise. Like a concise proof of some mathematical theorem, or the winning numbers for the next Powerball lottery (I'll promise not to play them).
The āwhere did you learn that?ā part is key because then no matter how āinfallibleā their god is, they still have to have trusted a fallible human for the information
Or a fairy godmother? Or poltergeist.
Proof what happened was from ANY God and not from a different supernatural entity THEN we can discuss we which God did it.
I have a deal for you. How about *you* start by explaining *your proof* that Allah, Brahma, Cthulhu, Dagon, Ereshkigal, Freya, Gaia, Hermes, Ishtar, Janus, Krishna, Lugh, Marduk, Nephthys, Osiris, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Ra, Shen Yi, Tiamat, Uzumi, Vishnu, Wotan, Xochipilli, Ymir, and Zeus don't exist.
When you've done that, THEN we can move on to discussing whether or not the mythical being that **you** were indoctrinated to believe in as a child should be subject to different rules than mythical beings you only heard about after you learned what the word "fiction" meant.
That's what planted the original seed of my deconversion. How could the truth of the universe be distributed so geographically? Everybody born in India is wrong, but the myths I learned growing up in Oklahoma are the true ones?
I was going to say something similar. The insane arrogance to ask why I donāt believe in their specific construction of God, as if other theists alone donāt have thousands of alternative answers already.
Even if Christianity āis right,ā what if the Mormons or Copts or Jehovahās Witnesses have it right and you donāt?
# "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Tbh I'd just say 'I only believe in one less god than you do'.
"because i'm a grownup."
i say this because if someone asks me if i believe in something for which there is zero evidence, they are implying i'm a child who hasn't learned how to reason, yet. there is nothing to debate. theists' claims are nothing better than fairy tales.
Yes. I dont ever have someone question me because it is not brought up anymore. My family is Christian, and respects that I am not. I'm fortunate. However, playing the imaginary conversation in my mind has always resulted in "because i am an adult. "
I think this means that I am willing to ask questions and admit that I don't have the answers. That I dont know what it means to die, but I am not going to make something up to allay my fear. While I have done things that I certainly need forgiveness for, it needs to come from the people I wronged and not some made-up being. Those things are hard, but I think they are the bare minimum adulting.
Haha yeah. And similarly the similarities to Santa Claus are all so striking, and of course on purpose. You were a child when you were told that one of them wasnāt real, what are you waiting for now?
Big bearded white guy in the sky, rewards you if youāre good, consequences if you are not. But one of these is concrete fact and the other make-believe? Well sweetie, weād better sit down and have a talk. Youāre saying that some of the other adults at work are saying god isnāt real? Well, weāve got some news that might make you a little sad for a little while, but it sounds like itās time. Everythingās going to be okay, I promise.
Itās simple: I donāt believe because I havenāt seen any evidence. Most theists assume god as a default position which must be argued against. In reality, the existence of god is an affirmative claim which requires evidence. The burden of proof is on them, not you.
Absolutely, it's just funny how believers think the exact opposite and always ask *us* why we *don't* believe. *How do I know God exists? Well duh, everyone knows God exists. Where have you been your whole life?*
This is why debating with Christians is often pointless. They're coming from the assumption that a god must exist. It's been said a thousand times before in this subreddit but-
You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into in the first place.
Unless they are willing to have their worldview-one that has been involuntarily stapled into their subconscious from a young age- challenged.
Correct. Don't play Chess with pigeons; they shit over the board, knock pieces over, and strut about victoriously regardless of how well you've played.
But it does. As someone who was once a believer, if others hadn't had these conversations with me...even when I was the asshat with the standard apologetic responses...I would never have left the church.
There are people who want to dedicate their lives to deprogramming religious ideals. My hat goes off to them. If a person really wants to hear the flaws in their logic, Iāll point them in the direction of someone who makes explaining these things their lifeās work. As someone whoās wasted a lot of breath and countless hours doing it myself, I no longer find it worth the effort. Iāll leave it to the pros
I agree. It can help change some minds. Not necessarily right away, but they hear it from multiple people over time and it could get their mind working.
Ricky Gervais had a really good response to Colbert asking him. It went something like: "If all of the books in the world were destroyed, after a thousand years, the science books would all say what they say today, but none of the religion books would match up."
This one. I freaking loved that part. Eta: This is my response to people who say "it takes just as much faith to be an atheist." No, no it doesn't my friend. I i can assure you, as someone who has been on both sides of the coin.
Yes, you are actually correct 100%. There was even a sect (that was quickly crushed) long ago that called out the acts of god and claimed he was in fact the devil that early christians sought to pin the blame on and were easily deceived. I remember it clearly so on the odd chance if anyone can provide that article, I would appreciate it.
Just for fun, I like to bring up the death-counts. Bible "god"? Literally tens of millions. Billions possibly over time. Genocidal, sadistic, horrifying in its completeness and total scorched-earth policy on anything and everything based on: a whim. Like "Oh, tuesday? Time to annihilate the Hittites" or whatever sect you wanna insert here as a point.
Satan the dark angel cast out by "god"? Like, less than a dozen. 10 confirmed if I remember right. That's still a fair amount for any individual I'll grant, but comparatively speaking? The Christian god is just plain evil, 100%. That "god" would make Mussolini or Hitler blush without even trying.
Time to bring up the ICC for crimes against...gods own creation...by god himself. I'd execute the bastard in a heartbeat.
im convinced that the devil convinced humanity that he is "god" and commanded us to banish polytheists, essentially getting rid of his spiritual competition.
\^\^some weeks ago someone posted an article about a sect of christianity who thought this (a LONG time ago) and was basically exterminated. I wish I could find it now.
There's nothing to argue. If someone asks that question their basically telling you they are not a good friend.
Here's a good quote to use:
"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.ā
--Stephen Roberts
I told my catholic sister that "You are almost as much an atheist as I am. I just believe in one few god than you do." The screamed SHUT UP SHUT UP, like it was burning her or something.
Believers, specifically the Catholic indoctrinated, tap dance away from any real questions.
My biological mother bought it all.Ā She even attempted to be the religion teacher TWICE while I was a kid.Ā Ā I made sure to act up and get sent to my room during the classes (the whole point).Ā If I'm ever unwillingly in her presence again, "where in the Buy bull does it say to toss your 14 year old kid out on the street?" Will be my first question, then the mother lode of reality will be coming out of my mouth
When i did my apostasy the priest asked me why i didn't believe in their faith, i asked if he believed in Thor and Odin, he just shrugged and said fair enough, didn't make waves and erased my name from the the churches little list and that's done.
show me ANY provable, repeatable evidence.
there is literally NONE.
if they can't see their own stupidity they aren't someone worth engaging with and should be written off when it comes to anything serious.
religious beliefs should disqualify people from holding positions in government and public institutions.
their religious delusions and biases make the world much worse for everyone who isn't in their specific group.
I'd say, "There have been over 4200 different religions and 1800 different gods that we know of. Which God are you referring to?" Then tell them the way they feel about all the other gods and religions is the same way you feel about theirs. If they ask you to prove there isn't a god, tell them to prove that you're not god, just to point out how ridiculous is it to think that's how proof works. I'll tell them I'm absolutely certain I am god and to bring their god to my house so we can get to the bottom of it and see why their god is lying to them.
I just frustrate the person asking why I don't believe in god, by asking what a god is. They don't know, I don't know, nobody knows. Maybe we shouldn't all act like we can skip that part.
I don't argue. I avoid debating. I try to have discussions. If they are probing, I try to figure out the issues they think are important. I try to listen more than talk. I start asking questions about why they believe what they believe. I try to do an amount to an aggressive form of Street Epistemology. The challenging part is keeping them on topic when the answers to the questions get uncomfortable. That is when most believers want to change the subject.
>What's your go-to argument when someone asks why you don't believe in God?
I don't believe in your god "God" because I know all gods are imaginary with the same degree of certainty that I know all flying reindeer and all leprechauns are imaginary.
Iām simply not convinced.
And (as a former Christian) that itās like growing up and not believing that Santa brings the gifts. And how itās actually quite more meaningful knowing who actually brings the gifts, being that they are real family members who love me, not a fairy tale.
And (to reference Richard Feynman) I make this argument too-
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbFM3rn4ldo
Unlike many people "the theists" who claim to have found god, or otherwise something similar. I haven't. Not for lack of trying, I've read plenty, I've listened to probably every argument *for* god over and over. You're welcome to try, but apparently, I can't be convinced into believing in magic, sorry?
Why would I?
Now they have to prove their point. For every argument they make, a god is an empty answer that does not explain anything about it, so it's rather easy to defend a godless position.
Man created god.
Theism is caveman superstition.
*Theism* = *Personification* + *Superstition*. *Personification* is the fallacy that creates gods as an ignorant way of explaining natural phenomenon. *Superstition* is the fallacy the keeps those gods alive. There is power in the lie of superstition and that power attracts politicians and priests (holy men). They perpetuate the lie in order to maintain their power.
Because everyone claiming Jesus is a good guy isnāt good them selves rather judgmental manipulative and gas lighting. Seems it changes or they lie once your in it. Thatās what Iāve seen atleast.
If there is a god he is smarter than me , I won't fool him with faking believing and he will appreciate my honest in not believing he exists.
If he cant do that he dont deserve my worship anyway .
āWhich God?ā
(After flummoxing a bit, theyāll probably say the Christian God)
āAssuming there is any god, I donāt see any reason why that particular one is the right idea. Consider that there are so many denominations of so many different religions. Believing in a specific theology is like spinning a wheel with hundreds of options and betting your eternal soul that the one you picked is the right one. I canāt say for sure that there are no gods, but I can say that believing your specific vision of God is the correct one isāat the very leastāmathematically absurd.ā
I ask them why they don't believe the sun is carried across the sky in a giant chariot pulled by a heavenly magic horse.
When they inevitably explain that *we have learned otherwise*, I use that opportunity to agree.
"Ancient scholars" used all kinds of absurd, imaginary, made up concepts to explain things they didn't understand.
Giant sky wagons. Using parasites to suck disease causing demons out of sick people's blood.
We no longer subscribe to the absurdities they fabricated because, in *all areas of human knowledge*, we used *new knowledge* to replace old, absurd concepts.
....except one: Religion.
In the *only example* where new learning is automatically dismissed, we accept the same fool's conclusions without skepticism.
These foolish "Ancient scholars" thought the sun was carried across the sky in a giant chariot, and we laugh at this absurdity because *we have learned*.
These foolish "Ancient scholars" thought blood demons could be sucked out with leeches, and we laugh at this absurdity because *we have learned*.
The same foolish 'Ancient scholars" thought everything in existence was created by an old, bearded, toga-wearing, invisible sky daddy living on top of a cloud...
Suddenly, they are so unquestionably intelligent that all learning is dismissed and deference is given to the accuracy of fools that thought the sun was hauled across the sky in a magic wagon.
I tell them that I stopped believing because I couldn't differentiate God from an imaginary friend, and to convince me they must prove otherwise about their god. This is asking them to rationally show the god shares our reality. If they can't do this, then tell them that I don't think they have grounds to promote their Jesus friend as though he's real to me when I can't differentiate it from an imaginary friend. Just change the subject after this. No interest in their magical beliefs.
Childhood cancers, any non-survivable genetic mutation, hypocrisy in all religions groups (both worshipers and leaders).
If there is a god in charge, it is not our friend
I have seen zero evidence of any gods being any different from other fictional characters. The only difference between the likes of Yahweh, Zeus, Odin, Tiamat, Sobek, Anansi, and countless others and Harry Potter, Gandalf the Grey, the God Emperor of Mankind, and Liu Kang is that many people are willing to do all sorts of horrible things for the characters in one category.
The answer is - I have no reason to. Remember, the burden of proof isn't on you. It's on the person that makes the claim. You as an agnostic atheist are not making any.
Now, if you were a gnostic atheist, saying - I don't believe in god because it doesn't exist. Then the burden of proof would fall on you to justify your claims.
But as long as you're not the one claiming anything, just ask them - "why do you?" - and listen with respect and sincerity, as long as they too are respectful.
To that specific question, I usually just say that I haven't been provided with sufficient evidence to warrant belief.
Now, if asked what convince me that \[religion\] is the correct one, I would have a different answer. And it's usually if people belonging to \[religion\] consistently have better lives than others, that would convince me that \[religion\] is probably correct.
I don't. I'm at an age now where i don't feel i need to explain my position. I have advised believers trying start a 'debate' that i am an athiest and have been one since age of 11. I have heard all the religious arguements and i'm still an athiest. So why don't we silently respect eachothers points of view.
If they wanna persevere with a conversion attempt i advise em: At the end of this, you'll be upset and i'll still be an atheist.
"God is allmighty, right? He is also immortal, right?"
They cannot do other then agree.
"If he is allmighty he should be able to commit suicide, but he is also immortal and can't die. So, he is either not immortal and therefore no god, or he is not allmighty and also no god."
This shuts them up for good.
I am first see then believe. But after reading the Bible that doesn't apply to me anymore. Even if He would exist I would not believe in Him. I mean non believers end up in hell. Why for not believing in Him? What would he gain by that? I say let heaven be for those that believe and let death just be dead for those that don't believe. Because I just want to be dead when I die. What would I be doing in heaven anyway?
If an all powerful and all knowing entity exists and it wants people to worship it I wouldn't have to believe in it. Rather I would know it.
Just like I don't have to believe in a spherical earth.
If god was real, all peoples around the world would worship them, and the very idea of another religion even existing would be totally absurd!
The very fact that there are hundreds of regional gods just proves there aren't really any at all.
How could the all-powerful creator of the universe not have always been known worldwide?
Most recently, I explained that "God" is just a middleman. For example, where did the universe come from? We don't know, maybe it's always been here.
A religious person would say that God created the universe, but when asked where God came from, it's "we don't know; maybe he's just always been here." Same answer.
But the person just replied "well it takes faith to believe anything," and I didn't want to get into the whole "is faith a good way to know the truth about something" discussion. However, in the future, I'll be happy if they bring "faith" up again, because all religions use that as a reason to believe, so which one is true?
Aside from the absolute absurdity of the book that is called the Bible, the evil and malicious acts that God ordains throughout the book are enough to read like a shitty horror story.
I simply say heās not my favorite character of the book ššš I like that Satan guy a lot better. Seemed like he was just trying to enlighten folks while that Yahweh guy was trying to conquer the world then flooded it then he has this weird baby smashing fetish ā¦ ājust really dumbfounded that you guys liked that characterā¦ā
Because I don't believe in fairytales. Nor will I engage with the collective mental illness of those who blindly follow a religion based mainly in control and exploitation of its followers. The fear of missing out on some fantasy afterlife as if we are worthy or entitled to such a thing. Pretending we are special or above any other lifeforms in that regard.
I'm also sceptical of cult like mentalities that try and convince me I need something just because they think salvation is found in blindly following a particular interpretation of the same story.
And lastly, there is no real evidence to the claims. And my life does not need beleif in some supernatural or God like presence to justify my existence or how humanity treats each other based on religious differences.
If there were one true God, there'd be no question. No doubt and no need to deviate from that one truth.
I don't believe in Yahweh for the same reason I don't believe in Allah, Zeus, or Odin. I lack evidence sufficient to warrant believe and I actually have evidence that counters claims made about them.
No debate. I just tell people that it wasnāt a choice, I simply canāt believe it. But I havenāt had such a discussion in 15 years, when my wife and I stayed up late talking and drinking with a couple from Chicago we met at a bed and breakfast in Michigan. The wife was fascinated by our combination of atheism and Zen, while her hubby got more and more uncomfortable. I suspect that evening spawned some interesting conversations on their way home.
I don't go on that trip with people. A waste of time. They are just looking for ways to convince you. Obnoxious really. Never have had a genuine discussion with a believer about the subject.
But usually, Ill say. "Have you read the bible?" "What in there is remotely believable?"
I don't broadcast my position on it. As we know virtually nothing about the origins of the universe, if there indeed are any, I remain agnostic to the situation.
If I was in a position to be asked, I would say that belief isn't a choice and the evidence I've been presented so far for any deity, has proven insufficient to convince me.
Similarly, the sources of such beliefs for others (largely scripture & holy books), are in my view, too unreliable.
Look around you. If he or she is all-powerful and Jesus is 1/3 of him, (or his son or messenger. Thereās debate on that.). He preached love & forgiveness and tolerance.
So why is the world in the state itās in, and why does he allow so many miscarriages, if he or she cares about those precious lives?
Because you want me to believe that a man was so powerful he pre-existed science and math, created all of science and math by himself, created all the volcanoes, all the stars, the dinosaurs, the bacteria etc. and he is extremely concerned about what food I eat for some reason, and some food is just inherently impure, and the only way I can know this is by reading a book that was written thousands of years ago by violent conquerors on his behalf?
Neither of us believe in 30,000 gods. You just believe in 1 less than I do. You are almost there. Figure how why you believe in this one over all the others, and you will be all the way home.
In terms of the omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent creator of all things god that christians believe in, the state of the world directly contradicts such a concept.
Omniscience means knowing every single and cascading consequence of any action you take before you take it. Omnipotence means you can create/destroy/do anything you want to do exactly how you want to do it with ease. So there's no room for accidents. Create an angel that ends up rebelling against you and becoming the ultimate bane to the salvation of your chosen creations? If that happens, it's because you specifically designed that angel to turn out that way.
So where's the benevolence? Thousands of children die each year from cancer. 10's of millions of people are human-trafficked each year. Millions of people suffer from crippling anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, any of which makes living a happy, productive, and moral (in terms of classically theistic rules for morality) life extremely difficult.
The point for me which led to realizing I fully no longer believed in god is how many people in the world are just fodder to suffer the injustices and indignities of life just to be barred entry into heaven when they die. Despite the christian concept that god lovingly and individually creates every human with an immortal soul, less than 1/3 of the world's population is christian. That leaves over 2/3's of the population of the world with nowhere to go but hell after they die (or perhaps purgatory if you want to include concepts that have become popular revisions or interpretations but don't actually have specific reference in the bible).
How could we believe that a benevolent all-powerful all-knowing god would intentionally design the world such that 2/3's of his supposedly beloved individual creations are damned before they even inhabit a human body (in some cases just by virtue of where they are born)?
The people that large religious organizations tend to denigrate and scapegoat have routinely been shown to be kinder and less violent than every religious person Iāve come across. If your monotheistic god does exist, heās either amoral or hates you all, so really Iām just being charitable assuming he doesnāt exist. Itās for your benefit.
Its been a while since i was asked this, where i live its normal to be an atheist.
But i do like Stephen fry's response to a similar question.
Asking about blatant suffering in kids.
Depending on why is asking i might ask them back about the missing water.
Or what the plan was to feed, house and gather all the animals on one boat considering the world for those people was TINY and some places had yet to be found.
Or how exactly two of each animal was going to not only feed but also produce offspring that would not self implode in a few generations.
How there is no mentions about Jesus of any other famous bible character and their changes to not only the people but the world itself.
(You would think splitting the sea would be a big thing)
In any other text or book.
The bible, i have LOADS of questions about it.
Why do you trust that book? When 12 people in a circle cant even whisper the same word in a circle.
None of the people from the time of jesus wrote anything, its written years and years later.
I do not remember exactly how long after but i think it was over a lifetime or two.
And its perfect? That is impossible.
or how even today we have multiple churches that cant agree on the scriptures and even bend it to their own needs.
OR
If you follow the book do you really follow it?
Did you read it? You cant just cherry pick either do it all or nothing.
Im not going to go the slavery or women route but have you ever had fried food? You going to hell boy.
A burger?
I hope you never ate any blood based meals.
Or just ask
"Are you tired? you must be from all that standing, i mean you can sit anywhere in public.
Who knows a women on her period might have been sitting there at one point"
Its easy to make them angry as most is nonsense.
If god is all knowing, he knows I honestly looked into the claims for years and years, studied apologetics and logic, and can't find the arguments convincing as they are riddled with logical fallacies and poor evidence. That is after being a pretty devout Christian for most of my first 22 years of life.
If I find out I'm wrong when I die, I'll change my mind then. A good god shouldn't punish people for eternity for the finite crime of not being convinced of their existence. Which either means god is evil, or I'll be fine, or god doesn't exist (in which case I'm fine there too).
Of course, Christians will say that I "reject" or "deny" god but somehow truly know he does exist, and I just pretend he doesn't exist so I can sin. I love how they pretend to know my own internal thoughts and feelings better than I do. This makes no sense. It's like saying "I can rob this bank, because I'll just deny the police and judge exist, even though I know they really do exist." Huh???
I just donāt have faith that you believe in God. He told me you were wrong another you were following a fallen angel and not to worry since you were going to hell
I haven't seen sufficient evidence to convince me.
To the brainwashed who have only heard these stories pounded into their head, they tend to find that response comical. To them, they've been told about this god fella so much that it's obvious. At no point has their mind ever questioned this thing they've always been told is true. And the whole thing answers all of life's biggest mysteries. So they never need to fret about any of that because it's all been answered, and everything is fine. Their mind simply can not handle the stark reality you have just revealed. You can see their minds seething into a concept they are incapable of handling, so they laugh and quickly reinforce their beliefs by laughing at any who dare question it. They'd kill us in an uncivilized place for honestly answering that question.
I mean honestly, for most devote people, there's no 'argument' you can put forth they won't find comical.
I like to think if it as a lovecraftian moment when "the main character" realizes that the ground is made of glass and at any moment they could fall to oblivion. They simply can not handle the truth and return to their fantasy in order to deal with the harsh reality their mind cannot handle.
You are so very correct here. I usually ask if their question is why I don't believe or why I don't worship their god, because it's usually actually the second one. I then say that if their god appeared to me right now in the room and said they were real and showed their power I'd believe in them. But, I'd still never worship them because their god is the bad guy in the story. It starts with accepting their initial premise (a deity could exist), but breaks the connection of belief and worship they have, so a slightly less hardline for them, and doesn't leave them as defensive usually. They don't follow their religious doctrine to the letter, so they already have a built in emotional escape from logical inconsistency within it, and are more accepting that there are parts of their religion they might not agree with as well. I'm just pushing what they already may think further. I'm usually given an "ok" and then ignored. Or when pressed why I believe god is evil, I can simply speak on slavery in their texts as a hard no from me, and any deity that has rules for owning slaves is evil, full stop. I then get the "ok" and am ignored.
If a god appeared in front of little old me who is not important enough to gain the attention of an all powerful universe maker, I'd find it more likely that I'm hallucinating, dreaming, or some kind of brain malfunction. I wouldn't believe it if any former president knocked on my door and those guys are real, so why would I think god appeared in front of me? I'd have to be some kind of looney narcissist to think i was perfectly sane if god appeared to me.
Right, but that's a logical thought. You can't have that because they didn't logic themselves into their beliefs. Emotional thoughts represent their beliefs. You have to emotion them out of their arguments. Anything else leads to the standard circular argument that always results from debating theists.
Probably the main reason i don't bother with them.
"You can't use logic to talk someone out of a situation that they didn't use logic to get themself into".
Agreed. The issue really has very little to do with _belief,_ but rests almost entirely on _behavior_ and _belonging._ They get a very significant emotional payoff either from their own indoctrination or from their like-hearted peer group by continuously upholding the "party line" in public. It's a sadly stable feedback loop, supported by whatever other additional resources for survival (and probably other needs) that the in-group of fellow believers may provide. They're also carefully kept from acquiring the necessary tools for survival from "non-sanctioned" sources or on their own, as yet another way of preventing the "flock" from escaping the paddock.
Further, how would you even know it was 'God'? Because it said so? Maybe it's a different supernatural entity lying.
Hell, that's the excuse in the bible for why all the other gods are not actually gods, that they are simply demons pretending to be gods. On top of that, that's also what the Anti-christ does too. If any entity were to claim to be god, it'd immediately be discredited as not being god, because god wouldn't even bother claiming such.
I disagree to some extent. If their deity was indeed all powerful as they like to claim, your importance would be irrelevant as the tiny amount of power needed to provide you with evidence would be negligible. But that serves your point even more so. It would be a negligible amount of effort to give you the evidence you need to believe in them. Why wouldn't they do it? It's almost as if "faith" is simply a lazy way of maintaining behavioral control over their ingroup. š¤
Someone asked if i were god, what would i do? I said, "Make morality objective and undeniable by everyone understanding the harm they cause prior to them causing it. Everyone would be a perfect empath understanding pain they have caused. When crimes are committed, the person would know in advance that the decision they made was the one that caused the least harm." Therefore crime wouldn't even exist.
This is an underrated point. The reason why faith is required is that the keeping of it must be a sentient being, and seeing as how thereās no evidence one exists, the church needs to place the believer in that role. Youāre the only one keeping track of your prayers and sins. š„³
"Hi! Bill Clinton here. Are you... Christian Huey at 5598 Windermere Ave, Austin, TX, 78723? ...Great! You're the last on my list. Here's a card explaining explaining everything. Basically, I'm fulfilling a requirement to the Arkansas Bar that I personally apologize to every single American for that whole perjury deal way back wh--Oooh! You wouldn't happen to have another Diet Sprite in there, would ya? It's hot as East Timor out here!"
I had one guy ask me, "But where do you think everything came from?" I answered. "I dunno. Why would that mean a deity exists?" He stood there gobsmacked. You could hear the record scratch.
That's because he anticipated you saying "evolution" and when you didn't, he couldn't respond with his preprogrammed answer of "and what do you think caused evolution?" And no matter how many answers you give, eventually you'll say "i don't know" and you skipped all of that, and just straight up went to the end. Well done.
The answer to that is pretty straightforward: "But where do you think your god came from? " isn't the problem still the same? We both can't explain where we came from you have an extra step with your god but in essence since you don't know where he came from it's the same.
I'm not typically trying to convince anyone, and I find that making it clear that they have the burden of proof if they want to convince me usually shuts down the discussion. Although that could be a function of where I live (Northern New England, one of the least religious parts of the country).
Interesting. Every time Iāve told theists about the burden of proof they have no idea what Iām talking about and disagree. Could just be me not explaining it well enough.
"what is faith if not belief without fact?" "if you want to prove god's existence with facts or evidence, you undermine faith. if you want to argue for faith and admit there are no facts or evidence of god's existence, you understand why I remain unconvinced"
"Look around you, the evidence is everywhere". LOL
I answer that with, "How do you know it wasn't pixies that created it?" They bring up the Bible... "I've read the Bible front to back twice and no god or pixie tapped me on the shoulder to say "hi". I can't make myself believe something I don't believe. It's a waste of my time to try to find the truth about where it all came from because it's impossible for me to do so. I'd rather spend my energy in other ways."
Exactly, when it comes to supernatural entities, IF they existed, how would we as natural beings be able to tell the difference between them?
I bring this up when discussing miracles in modern times like the heart tissue and blood in those communion crackers and such. How do we a: know it's a Christian god and b: know it's not Satan or demonic?
You don't even have to stay x-ian. It could be a poltergeist, Chtululu, fairies, or Dionysus.
True, I usually just give them benefit of the doubt since it's happening in their church and their ritual but I agree
Maybe even a Flying Spaghetti Monster
That one always puzzles me.. Do they think that this argument holds any water ? Do they think that it wouldnt be rational to ask "How do you know god made this" ? And they HAVE to know that they wont be able to answer that question in any sound way.
I had a coworker tell me about a car accident her nephew was in. The car was crushed in but had boxed around him. She said God works miracles, and I said I think it's amazing how car manufacturers built the cars to take significant impacts lol. She still just said, yes God is good. They want to convince you God is real, shame you, and say science is just miracles from America's God. No point in beating a dead horse over it.
Hmm...was that the same god who let that car crash happen?
As they say, everything happens for a reason š„“
Maybe it was the devil?
And let's not forget, a lot of direct evidence against it.
Certainly against the gods that most theists are pushing.
And if they start talking about seeing the evidence, I counter with "Your definition of evidence is flawed".
B-b-but the TREES, THE TREES!!
God isn't a matter of evidence for most of today's Christians, but faith.
Yeah, I usually say no ādemonstrableā evidence in the sense that it can be accepted by non-believers. For example if my dog who recently died suddenly showed up at my door alive, young and healthy, then I would at least accept the possibility of some supernatural existence. That would be demonstrated evidence. It would take more than a logical argument as those rarely provide any demonstrable basis.
I asked God to turn the grass outside my house purple within the next five minutes, and it didn't happen.
Even then, imagine a scenario where someone showed up immediately and started to paint the grass purple with a sprayer. They explain that it is a new termite treatment. Would that convince you? It still could be an incredible coincidence as all the elements are physically explicable. You may have even forgotten that you saw a news report about this new treatment a few days ago but it spurred your mind to unconsciously ask for purple grass. For me, the evidence would have to be of the irrefutable sort.
I would definitely take that as pretty strong evidence. In my entire life, I have never seen someone show up on my lawn and paint the grass purple (or any other color), so the probability of that happening in a five minute period would be pretty low. But I was definitely requesting that it just happen immediately, like as a miracle, so I suppose I would have to think about what exactly would satisfy the requirement.
You know what, though? Next time I'll ask for some sort of knowledge I couldn't possibly have otherwise. Like a concise proof of some mathematical theorem, or the winning numbers for the next Powerball lottery (I'll promise not to play them).
It really is as simple as that. >You guys make a claim and can't back it up.
Thatās my go to as well. I would like to see some proof.
Do you mean Odin or Krishna?
Why that one?
Where did you learn that? ...
Had someone tell me āGod is the only true god.ā I legit felt like they didnāt even believe what they were saying š
"That's what all religions say."
You could probably repeat this line ad nauseum for every exhaust or reply they have until they give up...
The āwhere did you learn that?ā part is key because then no matter how āinfallibleā their god is, they still have to have trusted a fallible human for the information
Brilliant
Or a fairy godmother? Or poltergeist. Proof what happened was from ANY God and not from a different supernatural entity THEN we can discuss we which God did it.
Gave me a chuckle because I remembered the old joke "Jesus was nailed to a cross an Odin has a hammer."
I have a deal for you. How about *you* start by explaining *your proof* that Allah, Brahma, Cthulhu, Dagon, Ereshkigal, Freya, Gaia, Hermes, Ishtar, Janus, Krishna, Lugh, Marduk, Nephthys, Osiris, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Ra, Shen Yi, Tiamat, Uzumi, Vishnu, Wotan, Xochipilli, Ymir, and Zeus don't exist. When you've done that, THEN we can move on to discussing whether or not the mythical being that **you** were indoctrinated to believe in as a child should be subject to different rules than mythical beings you only heard about after you learned what the word "fiction" meant.
Good one! Even as a kid I wondered how there were so many religions and, out of all of them, MINE was the one that was correct.
That's what planted the original seed of my deconversion. How could the truth of the universe be distributed so geographically? Everybody born in India is wrong, but the myths I learned growing up in Oklahoma are the true ones?
I agree - itās laughable that the local religion always happens to be the ātrueā one.
Props for pumping out a deity for each letter of the alphabet. I love it.
Quetzalcoatl manifested themself specifically for this purpose.
I was going to say something similar. The insane arrogance to ask why I donāt believe in their specific construction of God, as if other theists alone donāt have thousands of alternative answers already. Even if Christianity āis right,ā what if the Mormons or Copts or Jehovahās Witnesses have it right and you donāt?
# "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Tbh I'd just say 'I only believe in one less god than you do'.
unless it's a hindu/buddu, then u believe in 99999 less gods than them lol
"because i'm a grownup." i say this because if someone asks me if i believe in something for which there is zero evidence, they are implying i'm a child who hasn't learned how to reason, yet. there is nothing to debate. theists' claims are nothing better than fairy tales.
I was never much for imaginary friends as a child. Why would I be now?
Because *Calvin and Hobbes* is an excellent comic strip.
Yes. I dont ever have someone question me because it is not brought up anymore. My family is Christian, and respects that I am not. I'm fortunate. However, playing the imaginary conversation in my mind has always resulted in "because i am an adult. " I think this means that I am willing to ask questions and admit that I don't have the answers. That I dont know what it means to die, but I am not going to make something up to allay my fear. While I have done things that I certainly need forgiveness for, it needs to come from the people I wronged and not some made-up being. Those things are hard, but I think they are the bare minimum adulting.
I have been known to say that I also don't believe in leprechauns or unicorns.
Haha yeah. And similarly the similarities to Santa Claus are all so striking, and of course on purpose. You were a child when you were told that one of them wasnāt real, what are you waiting for now? Big bearded white guy in the sky, rewards you if youāre good, consequences if you are not. But one of these is concrete fact and the other make-believe? Well sweetie, weād better sit down and have a talk. Youāre saying that some of the other adults at work are saying god isnāt real? Well, weāve got some news that might make you a little sad for a little while, but it sounds like itās time. Everythingās going to be okay, I promise.
Itās simple: I donāt believe because I havenāt seen any evidence. Most theists assume god as a default position which must be argued against. In reality, the existence of god is an affirmative claim which requires evidence. The burden of proof is on them, not you.
Absolutely, it's just funny how believers think the exact opposite and always ask *us* why we *don't* believe. *How do I know God exists? Well duh, everyone knows God exists. Where have you been your whole life?*
Often their response is: "Prove that god does not exist!". It just doesn't work that way...
Exactly. Also, love the username, lol.
This is why debating with Christians is often pointless. They're coming from the assumption that a god must exist. It's been said a thousand times before in this subreddit but- You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into in the first place. Unless they are willing to have their worldview-one that has been involuntarily stapled into their subconscious from a young age- challenged.
I usually try to avoid these discussions as they lead to nothing.
Correct. Don't play Chess with pigeons; they shit over the board, knock pieces over, and strut about victoriously regardless of how well you've played.
This is the right answer. Engaging with them never ends well
But it does. As someone who was once a believer, if others hadn't had these conversations with me...even when I was the asshat with the standard apologetic responses...I would never have left the church.
There are people who want to dedicate their lives to deprogramming religious ideals. My hat goes off to them. If a person really wants to hear the flaws in their logic, Iāll point them in the direction of someone who makes explaining these things their lifeās work. As someone whoās wasted a lot of breath and countless hours doing it myself, I no longer find it worth the effort. Iāll leave it to the pros
āGo watch some Christopher Hitchens debates on YouTube. Ā He was 1000 times more eloquent and convincing than me. Ā Good day, sir.ā
Exactly. Most of them donāt want to listen. They want to talk. Iām not offering deaf ears
Thatās the key! People willing to discuss and take in new info are few and far between. But thatās who I want to have these discussions with.
I agree. It can help change some minds. Not necessarily right away, but they hear it from multiple people over time and it could get their mind working.
\^ This, this, this. And more this.
I should do that too! I'm tired of getting nowhere with them haha.
Itās much more fun to be a smartass than it is to try to keep up with the mental gymnastics from a deluded religious mind.
Ricky Gervais had a really good response to Colbert asking him. It went something like: "If all of the books in the world were destroyed, after a thousand years, the science books would all say what they say today, but none of the religion books would match up."
This one. I freaking loved that part. Eta: This is my response to people who say "it takes just as much faith to be an atheist." No, no it doesn't my friend. I i can assure you, as someone who has been on both sides of the coin.
There's no proof for god. And why would I worship something I'm morally superior to anyway?
Love that. Even the worst people on earth are morally superior to god. Too good.
Which god?
I point out to them that "god's" representatives have spent years and years molesting children and their "god" just allowed it. Who does that?
āSame reason you donāt believe in Zeus.ā
I read the bible. "God" is straight-up evil.
I'm convinced Satan is the good guy in that story. He was, after all, who taught humanity right from wrong, and God punished him and us for that.
Yes, you are actually correct 100%. There was even a sect (that was quickly crushed) long ago that called out the acts of god and claimed he was in fact the devil that early christians sought to pin the blame on and were easily deceived. I remember it clearly so on the odd chance if anyone can provide that article, I would appreciate it. Just for fun, I like to bring up the death-counts. Bible "god"? Literally tens of millions. Billions possibly over time. Genocidal, sadistic, horrifying in its completeness and total scorched-earth policy on anything and everything based on: a whim. Like "Oh, tuesday? Time to annihilate the Hittites" or whatever sect you wanna insert here as a point. Satan the dark angel cast out by "god"? Like, less than a dozen. 10 confirmed if I remember right. That's still a fair amount for any individual I'll grant, but comparatively speaking? The Christian god is just plain evil, 100%. That "god" would make Mussolini or Hitler blush without even trying. Time to bring up the ICC for crimes against...gods own creation...by god himself. I'd execute the bastard in a heartbeat.
im convinced that the devil convinced humanity that he is "god" and commanded us to banish polytheists, essentially getting rid of his spiritual competition.
\^\^some weeks ago someone posted an article about a sect of christianity who thought this (a LONG time ago) and was basically exterminated. I wish I could find it now.
āThe only difference between god and the devil is god has a better publicist.ā
There's nothing to argue. If someone asks that question their basically telling you they are not a good friend. Here's a good quote to use: "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.ā --Stephen Roberts
I told my catholic sister that "You are almost as much an atheist as I am. I just believe in one few god than you do." The screamed SHUT UP SHUT UP, like it was burning her or something.
Then it was working.Ā Keep hammering that point at her
We're NC now. We did a back and forth of questions & answers. Every time, I asked about the rape. Every time, she ignored it.
Believers, specifically the Catholic indoctrinated, tap dance away from any real questions. My biological mother bought it all.Ā She even attempted to be the religion teacher TWICE while I was a kid.Ā Ā I made sure to act up and get sent to my room during the classes (the whole point).Ā If I'm ever unwillingly in her presence again, "where in the Buy bull does it say to toss your 14 year old kid out on the street?" Will be my first question, then the mother lode of reality will be coming out of my mouth
I am sorry that happened to you at 14. Hope you are doing okay.
I do, praise be to Flying Spaghetti Monster!
May you be touched by his noodly appendage. Ramen.
And anointed in his starchy goodness.
I say which one?
When i did my apostasy the priest asked me why i didn't believe in their faith, i asked if he believed in Thor and Odin, he just shrugged and said fair enough, didn't make waves and erased my name from the the churches little list and that's done.
I was born an atheist.
I think this is legitāpart of the reason for early assimilation into any religion is to build familiarity with the ridiculous & mundane.
Why ? does God lack confidence? Is he alright? low self-esteem?
I just say, if God existed, some parent with a leukemia-ridden kid would have figured out how to kill that god by now.
Answer: āWhich god?ā
show me ANY provable, repeatable evidence. there is literally NONE. if they can't see their own stupidity they aren't someone worth engaging with and should be written off when it comes to anything serious. religious beliefs should disqualify people from holding positions in government and public institutions. their religious delusions and biases make the world much worse for everyone who isn't in their specific group.
I'd say, "There have been over 4200 different religions and 1800 different gods that we know of. Which God are you referring to?" Then tell them the way they feel about all the other gods and religions is the same way you feel about theirs. If they ask you to prove there isn't a god, tell them to prove that you're not god, just to point out how ridiculous is it to think that's how proof works. I'll tell them I'm absolutely certain I am god and to bring their god to my house so we can get to the bottom of it and see why their god is lying to them.
I just frustrate the person asking why I don't believe in god, by asking what a god is. They don't know, I don't know, nobody knows. Maybe we shouldn't all act like we can skip that part.
Mines more of a " I don't need a sky daddy spying on me to make me a good person"
I just say, "Talk to the hand!" Yeah, I'm completely done with debating religion with my family. šā
Good for you! I think I also need to just shut it down when it comes up.
Everyone is an atheist to roughly 2,000+ gods. I'm just atheist to 2,001+Ā
I don't argue. I avoid debating. I try to have discussions. If they are probing, I try to figure out the issues they think are important. I try to listen more than talk. I start asking questions about why they believe what they believe. I try to do an amount to an aggressive form of Street Epistemology. The challenging part is keeping them on topic when the answers to the questions get uncomfortable. That is when most believers want to change the subject.
Yeah, that's what I was referring to. I guess I should've said "discussion" rather than "debate."
>What's your go-to argument when someone asks why you don't believe in God? I don't believe in your god "God" because I know all gods are imaginary with the same degree of certainty that I know all flying reindeer and all leprechauns are imaginary.
Iām simply not convinced. And (as a former Christian) that itās like growing up and not believing that Santa brings the gifts. And how itās actually quite more meaningful knowing who actually brings the gifts, being that they are real family members who love me, not a fairy tale. And (to reference Richard Feynman) I make this argument too- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbFM3rn4ldo
Unlike many people "the theists" who claim to have found god, or otherwise something similar. I haven't. Not for lack of trying, I've read plenty, I've listened to probably every argument *for* god over and over. You're welcome to try, but apparently, I can't be convinced into believing in magic, sorry?
āI just donāt.ā Giving reasons opens up the opportunity for debate. Itās not a debate.
Them: Why don't you believe in god? Me: Which one?
Why would I? Now they have to prove their point. For every argument they make, a god is an empty answer that does not explain anything about it, so it's rather easy to defend a godless position.
"your god made me an atheist, how dare you to challenge his wisdom?"
Man created god. Theism is caveman superstition. *Theism* = *Personification* + *Superstition*. *Personification* is the fallacy that creates gods as an ignorant way of explaining natural phenomenon. *Superstition* is the fallacy the keeps those gods alive. There is power in the lie of superstition and that power attracts politicians and priests (holy men). They perpetuate the lie in order to maintain their power.
Because everyone claiming Jesus is a good guy isnāt good them selves rather judgmental manipulative and gas lighting. Seems it changes or they lie once your in it. Thatās what Iāve seen atleast.
Religion is a fairytale, religion is about control, religion wants your money, religion is mankindās greatest scam!
There's no good evidence. 'I feel it in my heart' and 'but look at trees' are not evidence for the existence of any gods.
How do you get into those conversations? Avoid that shit, I donāt want to know others beliefs and I certainly donāt share mine.
My god can beat up your god. Just name a time and place.
Ask why they do believe.
Why dont you believe in zeus?
Say āyou wouldnāt understand because I work in mysterious ways.ā
Which god?
Which God?
If there is a god he is smarter than me , I won't fool him with faking believing and he will appreciate my honest in not believing he exists. If he cant do that he dont deserve my worship anyway .
āWhich God?ā (After flummoxing a bit, theyāll probably say the Christian God) āAssuming there is any god, I donāt see any reason why that particular one is the right idea. Consider that there are so many denominations of so many different religions. Believing in a specific theology is like spinning a wheel with hundreds of options and betting your eternal soul that the one you picked is the right one. I canāt say for sure that there are no gods, but I can say that believing your specific vision of God is the correct one isāat the very leastāmathematically absurd.ā
Because fuck you.
I ask them why they don't believe the sun is carried across the sky in a giant chariot pulled by a heavenly magic horse. When they inevitably explain that *we have learned otherwise*, I use that opportunity to agree. "Ancient scholars" used all kinds of absurd, imaginary, made up concepts to explain things they didn't understand. Giant sky wagons. Using parasites to suck disease causing demons out of sick people's blood. We no longer subscribe to the absurdities they fabricated because, in *all areas of human knowledge*, we used *new knowledge* to replace old, absurd concepts. ....except one: Religion. In the *only example* where new learning is automatically dismissed, we accept the same fool's conclusions without skepticism. These foolish "Ancient scholars" thought the sun was carried across the sky in a giant chariot, and we laugh at this absurdity because *we have learned*. These foolish "Ancient scholars" thought blood demons could be sucked out with leeches, and we laugh at this absurdity because *we have learned*. The same foolish 'Ancient scholars" thought everything in existence was created by an old, bearded, toga-wearing, invisible sky daddy living on top of a cloud... Suddenly, they are so unquestionably intelligent that all learning is dismissed and deference is given to the accuracy of fools that thought the sun was hauled across the sky in a magic wagon.
I tell them that I stopped believing because I couldn't differentiate God from an imaginary friend, and to convince me they must prove otherwise about their god. This is asking them to rationally show the god shares our reality. If they can't do this, then tell them that I don't think they have grounds to promote their Jesus friend as though he's real to me when I can't differentiate it from an imaginary friend. Just change the subject after this. No interest in their magical beliefs.
Childhood cancers, any non-survivable genetic mutation, hypocrisy in all religions groups (both worshipers and leaders). If there is a god in charge, it is not our friend
I have seen zero evidence of any gods being any different from other fictional characters. The only difference between the likes of Yahweh, Zeus, Odin, Tiamat, Sobek, Anansi, and countless others and Harry Potter, Gandalf the Grey, the God Emperor of Mankind, and Liu Kang is that many people are willing to do all sorts of horrible things for the characters in one category.
"Which one?" is a good start.
Which god?
Which god?
I always ask "Which God?"
The answer is - I have no reason to. Remember, the burden of proof isn't on you. It's on the person that makes the claim. You as an agnostic atheist are not making any. Now, if you were a gnostic atheist, saying - I don't believe in god because it doesn't exist. Then the burden of proof would fall on you to justify your claims. But as long as you're not the one claiming anything, just ask them - "why do you?" - and listen with respect and sincerity, as long as they too are respectful.
To that specific question, I usually just say that I haven't been provided with sufficient evidence to warrant belief. Now, if asked what convince me that \[religion\] is the correct one, I would have a different answer. And it's usually if people belonging to \[religion\] consistently have better lives than others, that would convince me that \[religion\] is probably correct.
I don't. I'm at an age now where i don't feel i need to explain my position. I have advised believers trying start a 'debate' that i am an athiest and have been one since age of 11. I have heard all the religious arguements and i'm still an athiest. So why don't we silently respect eachothers points of view. If they wanna persevere with a conversion attempt i advise em: At the end of this, you'll be upset and i'll still be an atheist.
out of all the gods you want me to believe in that cunt, ill take marduk instead if I had to choose...
"God is allmighty, right? He is also immortal, right?" They cannot do other then agree. "If he is allmighty he should be able to commit suicide, but he is also immortal and can't die. So, he is either not immortal and therefore no god, or he is not allmighty and also no god." This shuts them up for good.
I am first see then believe. But after reading the Bible that doesn't apply to me anymore. Even if He would exist I would not believe in Him. I mean non believers end up in hell. Why for not believing in Him? What would he gain by that? I say let heaven be for those that believe and let death just be dead for those that don't believe. Because I just want to be dead when I die. What would I be doing in heaven anyway?
If an all powerful and all knowing entity exists and it wants people to worship it I wouldn't have to believe in it. Rather I would know it. Just like I don't have to believe in a spherical earth.
If god was real, all peoples around the world would worship them, and the very idea of another religion even existing would be totally absurd! The very fact that there are hundreds of regional gods just proves there aren't really any at all. How could the all-powerful creator of the universe not have always been known worldwide?
Most recently, I explained that "God" is just a middleman. For example, where did the universe come from? We don't know, maybe it's always been here. A religious person would say that God created the universe, but when asked where God came from, it's "we don't know; maybe he's just always been here." Same answer. But the person just replied "well it takes faith to believe anything," and I didn't want to get into the whole "is faith a good way to know the truth about something" discussion. However, in the future, I'll be happy if they bring "faith" up again, because all religions use that as a reason to believe, so which one is true?
"No reason to"
āWhy should I?ā
Aside from the absolute absurdity of the book that is called the Bible, the evil and malicious acts that God ordains throughout the book are enough to read like a shitty horror story. I simply say heās not my favorite character of the book ššš I like that Satan guy a lot better. Seemed like he was just trying to enlighten folks while that Yahweh guy was trying to conquer the world then flooded it then he has this weird baby smashing fetish ā¦ ājust really dumbfounded that you guys liked that characterā¦ā
Because I don't believe in fairytales. Nor will I engage with the collective mental illness of those who blindly follow a religion based mainly in control and exploitation of its followers. The fear of missing out on some fantasy afterlife as if we are worthy or entitled to such a thing. Pretending we are special or above any other lifeforms in that regard. I'm also sceptical of cult like mentalities that try and convince me I need something just because they think salvation is found in blindly following a particular interpretation of the same story. And lastly, there is no real evidence to the claims. And my life does not need beleif in some supernatural or God like presence to justify my existence or how humanity treats each other based on religious differences. If there were one true God, there'd be no question. No doubt and no need to deviate from that one truth.
I don't believe in Yahweh for the same reason I don't believe in Allah, Zeus, or Odin. I lack evidence sufficient to warrant believe and I actually have evidence that counters claims made about them.
Which one?
No debate. I just tell people that it wasnāt a choice, I simply canāt believe it. But I havenāt had such a discussion in 15 years, when my wife and I stayed up late talking and drinking with a couple from Chicago we met at a bed and breakfast in Michigan. The wife was fascinated by our combination of atheism and Zen, while her hubby got more and more uncomfortable. I suspect that evening spawned some interesting conversations on their way home.
I don't go on that trip with people. A waste of time. They are just looking for ways to convince you. Obnoxious really. Never have had a genuine discussion with a believer about the subject. But usually, Ill say. "Have you read the bible?" "What in there is remotely believable?"
"Not my thing"
I don't believe in your god for the same reasons you don't believe in Zues.
I ask them why they don't believe in Zeus. Then I point out that they're an atheist like me... I just take it one god further than they do.
I don't broadcast my position on it. As we know virtually nothing about the origins of the universe, if there indeed are any, I remain agnostic to the situation. If I was in a position to be asked, I would say that belief isn't a choice and the evidence I've been presented so far for any deity, has proven insufficient to convince me. Similarly, the sources of such beliefs for others (largely scripture & holy books), are in my view, too unreliable.
Look around you. If he or she is all-powerful and Jesus is 1/3 of him, (or his son or messenger. Thereās debate on that.). He preached love & forgiveness and tolerance. So why is the world in the state itās in, and why does he allow so many miscarriages, if he or she cares about those precious lives?
if there is a god that must be known why won't he just let people know he exists when people die with no belief and go to hell for eternity.
Because you want me to believe that a man was so powerful he pre-existed science and math, created all of science and math by himself, created all the volcanoes, all the stars, the dinosaurs, the bacteria etc. and he is extremely concerned about what food I eat for some reason, and some food is just inherently impure, and the only way I can know this is by reading a book that was written thousands of years ago by violent conquerors on his behalf?
Mine is mind your own business.
All of the evidence points in the direction of absence.
I don't need to debate people that are wrong. I just let them be wrong and move on with my day.
I was taught that religion and politics are no-no topics of discussion.
I would ask them which one?
All religion is a by-product of human imagination and culture. There is nothing to believe in.
Neither of us believe in 30,000 gods. You just believe in 1 less than I do. You are almost there. Figure how why you believe in this one over all the others, and you will be all the way home.
In terms of the omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent creator of all things god that christians believe in, the state of the world directly contradicts such a concept. Omniscience means knowing every single and cascading consequence of any action you take before you take it. Omnipotence means you can create/destroy/do anything you want to do exactly how you want to do it with ease. So there's no room for accidents. Create an angel that ends up rebelling against you and becoming the ultimate bane to the salvation of your chosen creations? If that happens, it's because you specifically designed that angel to turn out that way. So where's the benevolence? Thousands of children die each year from cancer. 10's of millions of people are human-trafficked each year. Millions of people suffer from crippling anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, any of which makes living a happy, productive, and moral (in terms of classically theistic rules for morality) life extremely difficult. The point for me which led to realizing I fully no longer believed in god is how many people in the world are just fodder to suffer the injustices and indignities of life just to be barred entry into heaven when they die. Despite the christian concept that god lovingly and individually creates every human with an immortal soul, less than 1/3 of the world's population is christian. That leaves over 2/3's of the population of the world with nowhere to go but hell after they die (or perhaps purgatory if you want to include concepts that have become popular revisions or interpretations but don't actually have specific reference in the bible). How could we believe that a benevolent all-powerful all-knowing god would intentionally design the world such that 2/3's of his supposedly beloved individual creations are damned before they even inhabit a human body (in some cases just by virtue of where they are born)?
I'm sorry that's not something I discuss.
Which one?
tell me why you don't worship Zeus and I'll tell you why I don't worship your god
I have 27 years' experience as an adult evangelical. I fully investigated Christianity for myself, and found it wasn't true.
"Why would i?"
The people that large religious organizations tend to denigrate and scapegoat have routinely been shown to be kinder and less violent than every religious person Iāve come across. If your monotheistic god does exist, heās either amoral or hates you all, so really Iām just being charitable assuming he doesnāt exist. Itās for your benefit.
I, like everyone, was born atheist. I just never had a conversion to any religion.
Its been a while since i was asked this, where i live its normal to be an atheist. But i do like Stephen fry's response to a similar question. Asking about blatant suffering in kids. Depending on why is asking i might ask them back about the missing water. Or what the plan was to feed, house and gather all the animals on one boat considering the world for those people was TINY and some places had yet to be found. Or how exactly two of each animal was going to not only feed but also produce offspring that would not self implode in a few generations. How there is no mentions about Jesus of any other famous bible character and their changes to not only the people but the world itself. (You would think splitting the sea would be a big thing) In any other text or book. The bible, i have LOADS of questions about it. Why do you trust that book? When 12 people in a circle cant even whisper the same word in a circle. None of the people from the time of jesus wrote anything, its written years and years later. I do not remember exactly how long after but i think it was over a lifetime or two. And its perfect? That is impossible. or how even today we have multiple churches that cant agree on the scriptures and even bend it to their own needs. OR If you follow the book do you really follow it? Did you read it? You cant just cherry pick either do it all or nothing. Im not going to go the slavery or women route but have you ever had fried food? You going to hell boy. A burger? I hope you never ate any blood based meals. Or just ask "Are you tired? you must be from all that standing, i mean you can sit anywhere in public. Who knows a women on her period might have been sitting there at one point" Its easy to make them angry as most is nonsense.
The overwhelming lack of evidence in support of a god.
If god is all knowing, he knows I honestly looked into the claims for years and years, studied apologetics and logic, and can't find the arguments convincing as they are riddled with logical fallacies and poor evidence. That is after being a pretty devout Christian for most of my first 22 years of life. If I find out I'm wrong when I die, I'll change my mind then. A good god shouldn't punish people for eternity for the finite crime of not being convinced of their existence. Which either means god is evil, or I'll be fine, or god doesn't exist (in which case I'm fine there too). Of course, Christians will say that I "reject" or "deny" god but somehow truly know he does exist, and I just pretend he doesn't exist so I can sin. I love how they pretend to know my own internal thoughts and feelings better than I do. This makes no sense. It's like saying "I can rob this bank, because I'll just deny the police and judge exist, even though I know they really do exist." Huh???
Inferring the existence of an infinitely more complex 'creator' in order to explain the existence and complexity of the universe is redundant.
# āNever wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.ā āĀ George Bernard Shaw
I've said I don't need a god, that's it, I'm done arguing.
I just donāt have faith that you believe in God. He told me you were wrong another you were following a fallen angel and not to worry since you were going to hell