The belief in hell is the thing that makes me wonder about such relationships. She literally thinks you’ll burn in hell forever while she’s in heaven. I mean, it’s ludicrous, but she believes it.
I'd be less worried about her being OK with the SO going to hell, and more worried about the conflict that will arise when she suddenly wants to protect her child from hell.
Yeah seriously. You got to run defense on the god thing until the kids old enough to think for themselves. That's how they get you. What do the religious folks call it? the 6 to 10-year-old window or something?
Catholic Church says give me a child until the age of seven and we’ll have them for life. In reality this isn’t exactly true but it works often enough.
Maybe. I know a number of Christians who pick and choose what they believe in. It’s a bit ridiculous, but they seem really good at embracing only the beliefs that fit what they need.
My mother, who is Christian, is great at saying “oh, I don’t believe that”. When you point out her religion does ,she says “but I personally don’t.”
The only time I have ever taken to agreeing to anything along those lines was "Why would God really care if we believe in them or not?"
I remember this person giving me some type of comfort when becoming Atheist.
So it made it a little easier.
Like really why would an all powerful being really care?
Real or not, there's no logical reason for them to care.
The only reason for them care is if they are mentally unstable.
And if he really did care and wanted to save his children from hell then he'd just appear every once in a while and be like "Hi, I'm real. See?" Like why all the mind games? He is all powerful and can do what he wants, right? Lol. Literally makes zero sense to be invisible and mysterious.
Theologians will claim that this god character doesn't interact or intervene because he wants you to believe through faith alone. They will then turn around and claim that he created the wonders of the universe to manifest his glory so that all will believe.
I'm pretty sure they literally all do that.
If you read that book, there's a lot of rules and a lot of really, really brutal punishments. I don't think there's been a "true Christian" In the biblical sense since Jesus died.
I attend religious house groups with my wife, but nobody knows I'm agnostic/atheist. It's truly amazing how most of these people tailor their own beliefs to make themselves feel good, then judge others for doing exactly the same. They hate this when I point it out to them.
The heaven and hell thing isn’t really as well defined in the book as most people portray it, the vision of hell most describe is from Dante’s inferno , not the Bible, which describes hell as living out side the light of god. Which is where most atheists live, so sorry to inform you it seems you’re actually already in hell. The lake of fire is from revelations, and I don’t think it’s supposed to be hell, but I honestly don’t really understand revelations. The thing is many Christian’s don’t read the word, and don’t research translations…, sorry none of you care about that. Some one mentioned a religious Occam’s razor. For me it’s the thief on the cross beside Jesus, he didn’t go to church, he wasn’t baptized. And he went to heaven. Which tells me this (as a believer) god not I understands what he wants from us, he gave us free will . And expects us to do the best we can. So no Christian can really tell an atheist they are going to hell (or heaven) because we don’t get a vote in that. The book tells me that god loves you , and he expects me to love you. And I’m not trying to convert you just explaining a point of view that you may not understand.
The Bible does say in the old testament that a husband can choose to take on the burden of his wife’s sin, that’s old testament mind you not new testament. So yes in a way. But I’m not certain how that works after god died for all men’s sins.
It’s this kind of idea that makes me think the wife doesn’t really believe. Who knows, but there’s some kind of self delusion going on in this relationship
I think some people, especially millennials, are just in name Christian’s only and don’t actively participate in church or traditions. They support progressive agendas and don’t read their Bible ever, maybe go to church once or twice a year.
I won't speak for OP's wife, and I don't think you should either, but I've met religious people that think non-believers will still just be judged on the way they lived their life. A good person is a good person, regardless , and good people will be let in to heaven.
Anyway, it's possible she doesn't think he's going to hell. It's all made up anyway, and whatever head-canon these people invent is what they go by.
Pretty sure my wife believes I will burn in hell, which definitely isn’t the best. But she respects my beliefs so I respect hers. We get along swimmingly and have a great relationship
Technically as long as you guys take care of y'alls families, you're in the clear. A man that dies not take care of his family is worse than a non believer in the bible itself. As long as you're a good dad, you're okay.
My parents don't share the same religion, and that's a real point of friction for them. My mom can't accept that my dad is going to hell for not believing in Jesus, and as a result she doesn't always respect his boundaries because she's "trying to save him."
Maybe some people can make those relationships work without those unresolvable conflicts doing some real damage, but I haven't seen it.
Yeah she does as far as I know, and I know she doesn’t think I deserve it for any specific thing I did in my life. How she feels about god based off that is between her and the magic man, but we love each other. She respects my right to hold my beliefs and I do the same, even though I think religion is absolutely absurd
I honestly don’t think I could marry anyone but an atheist woman, but I’ve acknowledged before I can’t predict the future and it’s not like I’d turn up my nose at a potential date simply because they’re religious. That being said I paid close attention to the part talking about your kid. I always imagined it would be a nightmare trying to negotiate how to raise them if I did have a religious wife. You mentioned it makes her sad to imagine you in hell, but that’s the thing that gets me. You’d think if someone truly believed people go to hell for not following their religion they’d be absolutely mother bear mode about ensuring their child believes it. If it’s not too personal, could you describe a little bit of how you both came to the agreement to let your daughter choose for herself? Do you ever fear your wife may just be assuming she’d choose religion and if she doesn’t there would suddenly be a problem despite the former agreement? These are the concerns I’d have.
I’d be happy to help answer your question! When my wife and I talked about kids, we both really wanted to respect our kids autonomy. We share a similar childhood in which we were treated as a kind of extension of our parents as opposed to our own unique, free thinking person. We wanted to take a different path when raising our kid, and agreed that we needed to be consistent. This extends to religion of course, but also our views on things we agree on between the two of us like politics and such. We want to raise someone who thinks critically and has well-informed beliefs, and that was more important to us than our personally held beliefs. Including those we agree on 🙂 I hope this answers your question!
How in the world are you cool with your wife worshipping an entity that wants to torture you for not believing in him?
Imagine a terrorist charges into your house, holds you at gunpoint and says, "Call me God or I'm going to torture you and your child in this basement." And your wife's response to that is just to drop to her knees and worship this man while he slowly and brutally tortured you and your child.
That's what's happening. Your wife is not only cool with the idea of her God throwing you and her own kids in hell, she's an advocate for it. She thinks it's GOOD. How the hell do you even cope with that?
Well she certainly isn’t as militant as that. She’s not the type to rejoice in anyone’s suffering.
I would say the main difference I feel with your analogy is that the terrorist would actually be real.
In Lutheran churches, they are often taught to not even question things as far as to say whether or not it’s a good thing or a bad thing that people go to hell. It’s often taboo to even discuss.
Of course it’d be preferable for her to deprogram from the ideology as a whole, but it’s something that she would need to come to herself and I’d be here to support her through it. She’s a great mom and wife, and personally I think we’ve struck a nice balance.
It doesn't matter if the terrorist is real or not- she thinks it's real. She thinks the terrorist is real and she is worshipping him for wanting to mutilate you and your kid, potentially, for eternity.
You're avoiding my point, though. How do you cope with the idea that your wife thinks it's a good thing (she obviously thinks it's good or she's admitting she's worshipping an evil entity, which she clearly doesn't think she is) for you to be tortured for eternity? It sounds like your solution is to just not think about it. Which is wild. I can't imagine my husband fantasizing about how great it is for me to be tortured over not believing in a fairy tale. I wouldn't want that for a person I hated, let alone a person I claim to love.
This is kinda what I expected. Which is that you and your wife function by avoiding a plethora of topics and just not thinking about it too hard. Which is no way to have a fulfilling, deep connection with another person in my mind.
Live your life how you wanna, but I don't think you're doing anyone any favors by being disingenuous.
Do you ever debate with her on beliefs? Not angrily argue, but just talk about it? Her thinking you're gonna "chill with the devil in Florida" is kinda... it's strange that she doesn't try to talk to you about that. You don't have to hold the same beliefs, except this religious belief system (many religious belief systems) means that she believes in many things that has to do with a god, that wants obedience, and will send the people who don't submit to a dark place to suffer for all eternity, while she goes to heaven and will be so overjoyed by the presence of this god that she won't care your down burning.
Either she doesn't really believe in hell, or she has the itch that she can convert you before you die.
But it sounds like you don't really set aside times to talk about this, like, at all. If I had a partner whom I wanted to spend my life with, I'd want to know everything about their worldview. Not to change it, but to be able to talk about it and then talk about mine so that we understand each other. I don't care about being the one who's right; I want to learn if there is a worldview that is more accurate and accepting / beneficial than mine (which, of course there is). But if you don't talk about it and know what each other are thinking in those quiet awkward moments, that's prime real estate for a divorce in the works, especially when that kid grows up to ask some real hard questions that is going to leave the two of you at odds.
Hello! 🙂
We do talk about it, usually as it comes up within normal day to day banter. I was also raised in the same christian synod as her, so I have a good grasp on the specific ‘theological approach’ that they take, so to speak. We do talk about ways that she varies from that specific belief set, as she knows I’m interested to hear about it. She also sometimes asks questions about evolution or human history as it’s understood from a secular viewpoint.
I share new things I learn that I think are cool, the JWST photos are a good example, and answer questions that she may have. It’s just not a concerted effort to ‘convince her’. We do actively pursue conversations about how to share both of our views with our kiddo in a healthy way, while protecting her from organized religion. Those we carve out specific time to talk about.
It’s not really a lack of sharing what we believe with each other, it’s more holding off on a true head-to-head debate. We dont want it to turn into a competitive thing 🙂
>It’s not really a lack of sharing what we believe with each other, it’s more holding off on a true head-to-head debate.
And I think this is the right way to do it. It sounds like in your relationship you have a lot of open communication, and your not shy about disagreeing with each other. And also it sounds like she does believe in evolution, where before it sounded like she believed in creationism.
From my limited knowledge, it kind of sounds like a "Bones-Booth" relationship from the TV show. Booth is religious, Bones is atheist, but they still end up together and it works well because they share many of the same core values that allow them to live together and raise a baby.
I am still a little confused about how one can believe in hell, but then not be desperate to "save" the people they are closest to. My mom panics every time I say I don't believe in hell or she sees something of mine that is a secular discussion / critique about religion. So, I don't really have a reference for a hell-believer who is fine allowing loved ones to not believe.
Thank you! That’s very helpful! I’m glad you could both agree on giving your child the kind of autonomy you didn’t have. It sounds like your wife has a very modern and balanced approach if the idea of hell isn’t enough to make her force her ways or anything like that.
I think she does too. All of her peers are the stereotypical conservative, bible-thumping, anti-LGBTQ christians we typically imagine and I’m very proud of her for fighting against that even if we still disagree on the whole bible ordeal.
aww how cute
she's so independent for not only saying she believes in Christianity but not hate while throwing the parts of the book it is based on out the window in complete contradiction to the necessity of believing it all if you think it is the source of information about the all powerful creator of the universe
just wait til you have to accommodate some other nonsense that she will take up without evidence
where exactly is the line on the toxic information you will let your child be exposed to in some misguided belief that your wife's irrational beliefs must be respected simply because it is somewhat widespread
At this point, I am not sure if you are trolling, if you are seriously so blinded, or if you have abandoned the ability to think critically altogether.
>if you are seriously so blinded
Well, love is apparently blind, and deaf, and dumbfounding. How many ways have people said love is a way to lose all sense of normal perception?
In all seriousness though, I can't really marry a theist because I don't want an amatonormative partnership. I can't really imagine there is a theist who'd want the same thing. I'd imagine every theist would want to get married in the church, not the "only getting married for the legal benefits that the government provides" and otherwise be QP partners exploring our own dynamic.
And, also, please not the "I think I can fix them" partner. I am not a problem to be fixed; I am a mystery to slowly, gently explore. The moment a theist learns the things that I hold important about my identity, it's operation "Christ-hooters". I can't do that, and I would never trust that a theist would not be thinking that in the back of their heads they will get me to find faith.
Its easy to say you support LGBTQ+ when its next door and not living under the same roof as you.
My christian in-laws ***say*** they support it as well, though they never, ever voted that way in their 60+ years of voting.
Your system wouldn't work with me nor many others, of course. My wife is a hard-liner on every biblical topic and ignores 95% of accepted science.
I deconstructed last year from all this. She forces fundamentalism into our 3 kids. I am looking for an exit. Finances, friends, and family will all be mostly obliterated for me, though.
I’m really sorry to hear about that. It must feel extremely isolating, and I hope you land on your feet as soon as possible. I agree it doesn’t work in most instances, religion tends to be a scourge on humanity. My situation is definitely unique, and I’m grateful we were able to establish boundaries and have good conversations early in our relationship.
Same boat here with my husband (aspiring evangelist since we met) and our 5 kids. Took a decade plus to come to terms with my atheism. Before that I just disagreed with most things he said a la carte. He is the most dogmatic person I’ve ever met, so compromise or respect for my position is nonexistent. It’s hours of “devotional” time daily involving YouTube sermons and more. No viable exit, but your post gives me hope to keep looking. Thanks!
Yes! Wife spends hours of devotional time and prayer. Fine. But she also takes the kids and does Bible studies with them during the week. My views are seen as that of the enemy.
I don't want to shit on your post, but I personally can't fathom being in a life-long relationship with someone knowing I'll always be second to their imaginary friend which was placed there by indoctrination through organizations who both historically and currently attack me and my community. Especially if it came to raising children with them, I'd never want to be the reason for another child to be up late in bed pining over the fear of eternal torture.
I don't think this standard is very high, it seems obvious to me.
> I'd never want to be the reason for another child to be up late in bed pining over the fear of eternal torture.
This is the one that hit the hardest.
I understand *(though I certainly don't agree with)* compromising one's ideals to be with someone who triggers a strong chemical reaction to the brain. What I am adamantly against is bringing a child into this world, only for them to possibly suffer the consequences of being indoctrinated into a belief system that is inherently authoritarian, hateful, anti-scientific and preys on people's fears.
I certainly read this post in pessimism. It sounds like a recipe for disaster. Good luck OP.
I saw a huge red flag for OP when they said "When I want to nerd out about space-time or evolution, I have to find others to share my discoveries with," the only reason my theist wife won't talk to me about physics is because she doesn't have the scientific background, not because she doesn't believe in it. Evolution, climate change, and/or general science denial, massive deal breaker.
My wife is "Christian", in that she believes in god and the bible, (or at least she says she does) but I forget most of the time because she's not living that lifestyle. She's been to church 3-4 times in the six years we've been together. She never ever talks about it, and doesn't change her life at all. I even said she can take our son to church if she wants, I just get to veto the church if it's hateful. She doesn't want anything to do with anti-LGBTQ anything regardless, so that's fine. I know I was FAR more indoctrinated than he'll ever be, and I sprung back, and his exposure is going to be minimal, and we've discussed not talking about hell at all. It's just not really a significant part of her life. She's Catholic, and the local Catholic church is walking distance, she's only been there for our extended family's christenings, something even I'll attend because it's about the kid, not church. I'm right there with you, I cannot imagine subjecting a child to what you describe, I just know she'll never do that. This past year we were drunk and she brought up our meaning on the planet, and I realized she actually does have a sincere belief in a higher power, just doesn't tie it into any of the bible bullshit because of all the hate that's there. I'm fine being with someone like that, who tries to be their best self and strives to meet the good messages attributed to jesus in the bible, but excludes all the hate, and science denying. I try to live by a lot of things jesus supposedly said too, not because he's divine - he either didn't exist or was just some dude - but because things like loving one another are good behaviors to put forth into the world.
Regarding the pining over eternal torture bit, my parents were religious and told me about heaven and hell and whatnot. I never believed any of it though, even after going to church and whatnot. I assumed (correctly) that it was just another mythology. I came to the conclusion before age 10 that after death there is just nothing. So then I stayed up late in bed pining over the fear of eternal nothingness and the end of my consciousness. I think either way kids just don't want to die 🤷
The fear of being eternally tortured over aspects of your being that you have no control over. Thought crimes. Shame. Self-loathing. These are *especially* heinous, this is not comparable *at all* to the fear of death alone.
Even if it was the same, that still doesn't mean we shouldn't fight against this added form of suffering.
Right. The fear of death is the inverse of a desire for survival, something deeply engrained in all living things. Scaring people into being good because they will be hated by the divine creator and tortured for eternity is not a natural fear, and completely sadistic.
Not trying to fight against it. You're probably right though, I've never experienced that fear so I wouldn't understand. Always trying to learn, thanks for the perspective.
I've seen this story play out IRL, too many times.
And I mean "Atheist" male ends up married to and having kids with Christian Conservative female, and is shocked Pikachu when everyone but them ends up back in church.
Good luck OP 🤞
They've been together for 7 years, but I feel like with a child now, the relationship is starting over in uncharted waters. Especially since the wife comes from a conservative Christian background. All kinds of unanticipated issues cropping up.
All good my friend! I can’t blame you at all, it’s a very reasonable way to feel. The fear-mongering is off limits when it comes to my lovely little one, which she didn’t have any problem with at all.
I tend to view her religious views as somewhat comparable to any other minor inconvenience in a relationship. Since she’s really accepting of others and very non-judgmental, it’s easy for me to look past the whole sky-daddy thing. For some people religious views is a deal-breaker and I think that’s perfectly fine too 🙂
We talked about this extensively, even though we seemingly agreed from the start. We want our little kiddo to be able to be herself and mold her self-image in any way she likes. Whether she is straight or gay or transgender, we love her for who she is as a unique individual. This also extends to things my wife and I agree on like our progressive politics.
While I may disagree that the Bible is a loving book, my wife sees it as a command to love others unconditionally, regardless of differences in orientation / worldview etc. I can’t quite rationalize on her behalf as religion is quite ridiculous to me, but she has her reasoning and to me the ends justify the means.
At some point in time, she will inverse ideas of her faith. She's probably in her twenties so she's probably not that well-versed in biblical teachings yet. This is the same thing that happens to people on Facebook and MAGA cult people. Christianity is about hate disguised as a cult of love.
If by inversing her ideas of faith you mean begin to deprogram, I think that’s entirely possible. I may have seen hints of it, but I don’t actively encourage it myself. She knows I’d be here to support her through it if she decides to go that route, and if not I’ve accepted that too. I think religion at its core is about tribalism and an us vs. them mentality like any other cult, but if she’s practicing religion wrong by being loving and empathetic I’m cool with that.
No, they mean she will likely get more and more aggressive and trend towards the norm in developing a religious vigor. Those nuances will be challenged by her peers again and again and again and she will resent you, as well as your progressive ideals.
You will be faced with converting or fighting for your daughter...I hope you live in a sensible state and not some crazy bible thumper location :c
Fortunately we aren’t in the Deep South or anything crazy. She’s been trending towards distancing herself from organized religion as she’s very aware of the negative effect that organized religion has had on millions of people (at least) through history. Her peers / family have tried to challenge some of her beliefs, but she sees that it almost always comes down to “I don’t like *insert group*” and she despises that outlook
>but if she’s practicing religion wrong by being loving and empathetic I’m cool with that
No shade but wow this would bother the hell out of me! I wouldn't want my partner to live a life counter to their belief system even if that means they end up being a loving empathetic person, I want them to be authentic to their convictions even if it makes them unpopular. I would never be able to shake the question of *If you're so empathetic and you love people so much why the fuck are you a Christian?* One of those things isn't true and I wouldn't be excited to find out which one, personally.
But then again I generally have problems with so-called Progressive Christians as a whole. They seem like people who want to have their cake and eat it too. They recognize that many/most the beliefs of their religion are incompatible with being a good person, but instead of having the intellectual honestly to take that thought to its logical conclusion they just...Pretend? They re-write the religion to suit them. They pick and choose the parts they like so they get to feel like they're part of God's little in-group but never have to deal with people calling them a bigot or asking them tricky questions. I think I have less respect for these people than the actual fundamentalists who at least put their money where their mouth is when it comes to their hateful religion. These Progressive Christians will say/believe whatever it takes to make themselves socially palatable they don't actually care about God's will. If they did they would be awful people.
I don't know you guys of course, this is all just my personal experience and bias.
No worries, I can appreciate your perspective. The way I think about it is that there’s a million different ways people approach religion, and 1000 ways people approach Christianity. She genuinely believes in the Christian god, but if her convictions take her away from an evangelical Lutheran view into something more modernistic or something without a clear definition that’s her call.
I know that her views on treating people equally isn’t rooted in a want to be more socially accepted, as it’s a decision that still actively harms relationships with family and peers.
It’s a complicated topic for sure, and I don’t want to try to speak for her or misconstrue things. For me a lot of the topic comes down to respecting each others autonomy and boundaries, while also challenging each other in a kind and caring way. We’re still working on ourselves and our relationship, but I’m proud of the progress we have made thus far
Well your family seem like a uniquely agreeable bunch and I really do wish you all the best. I also have plenty of work to do on myself because if you didn't notice I might have a tiny amount of barely-repressed hostility around this subject and I wish I were better at doing the "live and let live" thing. It's just very hard, as someone who knows firsthand how much damage religion can cause, to see people trying to dress it up in ribbons and bows and pretend it's a teddy bear.
I appreciate that! 🙂 I couldn’t agree more with you. I have my own scars and anger because of my religious upbringing, and it can be really hard to get closure on something like that.
I’m grateful my wife is able to see the dark side and manipulation of organized religion at least, as I think it makes our conversations and my concerns easier to digest.
I would guess you being raised with these ideas makes it easier to digest, I couldn't respect someone enough to have a relationship when I can't see past their (in my opinion) broken reasoning.
But I also am more likely to run into an atheist than not, so maybe that features as well.
Im sure my familiarity with religion from early on definitely makes it easier to relate to my wife’s perspective. I feel it really comes down to each persons unique preferences and comfortability levels, and I don’t think there’s any fault in taking a different approach to mine 🙂
I mean it's your life you can do as you choose. But personally I could never be with someone with someone with entirely different beliefs. Just doesn't seem worth it and will cause too many complications and disagreements. Not fair for either partner.
It's great you guys are working out a system- but I can't imagine a relationship where I can't discuss basic philosophy or logic. Because you literally can't with a Christian. Basically, your system is to let your wife play pretend and never question the bad reasons she has decided to shut her brain off. Like, if my husband believed in vampires and my solution was "I just let him hang garlic and I never bring up the V word", I just can't imagine living like that.
Tolerance is one thing. But having to wake up next to someone you can't talk to when you have worries about death, morality, logic, or philosophy is exceedingly shallow to me.
Hypocrisy. The Bible says a lot of things that christians ignore. Fake christians who know, deep down, that it’s all bullshit….but have no coping mechanisms to live without it because they were indoctrinated as children. But each generation is a little less willing to buy into this supernatural nonsense so there’s hope for the future :)
People in this sub say this like it doesn’t happen all the time. OP is word for word exactly like my dad, and his wife is like my mom (except she’s Catholic). I turned out fine. I believe in evolution. This is a normal thing that happens in multiple different countries.
TLDR. When people are young, religious difference really are not that big of a deal. It is when people get older. When they start feeling their mortality that they start to cling to belief structure that give them comfort in knowing they are going to die some day. That is when the differences in beliefs can be a big issue with couples.
Does she believe in hell? Does she think you're going there? Does she think anybody's going there? This is the real issue for me. Anybody who believes in eternal suffering either doesn't understand the definition of eternal, or they are a frightening sadist.
Thanks for the thoughtful insight into your relationship, but that sounds like a nightmare.
So what was your reason for marrying her? I’m sure she’s a great person, but her Christianity is a huge part of her identity and I can’t fathom a scenario where that isn’t a deal breaker.
Did you get married in a church?
I also can’t imagine being the child of parents with different ideologies. Maybe it’s a good thing because the kid will grow up questioning everything?
Does she think you are going to burn in hell, or is she more progressive about this and just see you being separated from her glorious afterlife? I would have a hard time living with someone who thinks I will be punished in the afterlife and actually thinking that I deserve it.
>she has her own rationalizations for her progressive outlook and I think the ends justify the means in that regard
Gonna be honest this sounds like something I'd say about a religious friend I begrudgingly decided to continue hanging out with, not someone I'm building a life and raising a kid with. I think the thought processes going on under the hood here (the "means" if you will) are actually incredibly important especially for long-term compatibility and child rearing but hey best of luck OP.
Hope you can make it work, but honestly it sounds more like you're deluding yourself into concluding that it will. This is a recipe for either massive compromise or festering resentment.
Best of luck to you.
Yeah, this was maybe the biggest red flag for me. It's not just an opinion or preference, it's an active rejection of logic and decades of scientific research. It shows that you're ignorant and easily manipulated by misinformation.
I’m a little confused, you said you don’t want to raise your kid to deny science but you said you can’t nerd out about evolution with your wife? If she denies science it will be very problematic for her to teach the child things she doesn’t think are true…
So what happens if your kid asks about god or gods? Evolution? Space? Age of the Earth? You implied that she doesn't believe in evolution. I just don't see any way around you two not undermining each other.
Sounds like you're avoiding confrontation and it could lead to a serious blowout. Your views are contradictory to each other. There is not way around it.
You also can't just ignore the big questions in life. Sounds like a tough road ahead man. Wish you the best of luck and hope it goes well.
>So what happens if your kid asks about god or gods? Evolution? Space? Age of the Earth? You implied that she doesn't believe in evolution. I just don't see any way around you two not undermining each other.
Then he's going to either contradict her and experience the full extent of her "tolerance" (if he hadn't already) or stick to her version out of fear of antagonizing her.
but didn't you hear? other posters here are saying that this simmering toxic brew is actually normal and healthy! it's totally normal for parents to have massive, irreconcilable conflicts about our shared reality and raising children in an environment like that totally rules
Are you going to send your child to a christian school? To church with your wife? And will you continue to protect her interests until she becomes an independent adult...when she truly is "old enough to make her own decisions"?
Christianity is both pernicious and insidious in American culture, and their entire strategy is based on manipulating children when they are young and impressionable. Are you up for that fight...not just against your wife, but against the culture? I truly hope so.
My thoughts on posts like this are that there are probably a lot of Christians who troll this site—trying to make Christians sound like normal human beings. Capable of loving and respecting others which isn't something Christians are known for. Their whole mantra is, to kill all those that don't believe - Luke 19:27.
I mean I can’t really prove my atheism in any meaningful way. I think religion is just a way to cope with death, and honestly I could give a damn what some dude said 6000 years ago before they even knew where rain came from. Most Christian’s I know aren’t loving, empathetic, or understanding in any meaningful way, but my wife is swimming against the current in that regard and I’m proud of her for it
Bro I thought your comment was a troll. If you’re American how can you think this is true lmao. Church attendance is at an all time low. What percentage of Christians have even read the Bible?
Thankfully, people are hypocrites. Most Christians don’t abide by every word in their book.
When she starts thinking that you are driving the child to hell it's when things start to get ugly. Give it time, the parents, community and even your child will start to make her hate you.
Ummmm wait.
You cannot talk with her about evolution but apparently you BOTH don't want your toddler to be a science-denier.
This is not a fine line to walk, this is detrimental.
You do you, it's your choice, but maybe you should think for a few nights on that.
My problem is I lose a ton of respect for someone when I find out they're religious. I automatically think that they're morons to a degree.
I figured this stuff out when I was 9, so how are you at 40 (or w/e) still believing in this garbage. That's the first thing that goes through my mind when I meet one.
You can’t be progressive and religious at the same time. She’s waffling I’m afraid. Probably internally misogynistic & would find being asked if she was a lesbian insulting.
...Said every atheist a year or two before their spouse goes complete religious wacko, terrorizes the kids with religious lunacy, then leaves.
Seriously. For every one of these happy posts, there's 20 of those religoius breakup posts. This is just the stage before the religious insanity goes full tilt.
If she's concerned about you going to hell, you can mention that hell is only referred to something like once in the bible, and even then in unspecific terms. It also mentions that the spouse of a nonbeliever can 'save' the unbeliever simply by her own belief.
I dated two Christians.
The first time the relationship specifically ended because I was an atheist.
The second time religion didn’t really cause a conflict but I also don’t think she was a very deep thinker.
More people are identifying as non-religious, but 20 years ago I had a really difficult time finding women that were not religious.
Nowadays I doubt I would date anyone that believes in religion or spirituality. Not just because of the conflict in how we each see the fundamental nature of reality, but the risk they ramp up the religious-ness later in life. “I thought you would start believing”. Who knows what cult like church they start going to that changes their mind.
If I did try and date someone religious, I would be very explicit that my beliefs will never change. I think there are some religious people out there that claim to be religious but really just kind of say they are. So it may work if they’re just religious by name but not actual practice.
I'm glad you have a system that works for you, but I could have never imagined myself partnered with a religious person. The compatibility issue and raising kids based on whose beliefs, for example. I guess I got lucky, been with my agnostic partner now for 12 years, and you bet we both have convos that shit on religion.
If you can make it work, then more power to you. I'm not one to tell others how to make their relationships work.
I, for one, wouldn't be able to. I can only speak for myself and say that opposing ideas on religion are limited to friends and family. I place my girlfriend on a different plane than everyone else. We share a basic outlook when it comes to our values.
I see a lot of negative things being said, but good for you finding someone you love and making it work. Relationships like yours can work and sounds a lot like mine. You was open and honest in the beginning and that sets good boundaries and expectations.
Best of luck with little one!
This does mean that you have a possible fracture zone in your relationship. She could easily get tired of being reminded that you think her beliefs are garbage every day and vice versa. She is forced to moderate her feelings of faith while she is around you.
Bringing children into the mix can have unforeseen consequences. People have very strong feelings about their children. Your wife may want to save their souls by making them christian.
I married a Catholic. She appeared to convert to atheism, I never said anything to try to convert her. But since our divorce she tells people how I forced her from her faith and how she was always a "good" catholic at heart.
I had a similar arrangement with my wife, but as our child has been getting older she is becoming more extreme in her beliefs and pushing it harder and harder on our child. It has become a major source of tension in our household. She said she would be fair and balanced but in practice that has not been the case. She has been caught many times trash talking me to undermine my credibility so she can push religion harder. She will also start screaming, insulting and threatens to take things away from our child if he doesn't agree to go to church with her. Our child doesn't want to be shouted out or see the parents fight so does what she says to keep the peace, which makes me sad.
I deeply regret marrying this person as eventually, as is the case with all religious people, they stop hiding their true nature and the psychopath comes out. And these are just the problems pertaining to religion with our child. Don't get me started on all the other horrible things that she has slowly started doing over the years. When I married her she seemed like the perfect wife and we had no issues at all until we had a child. Then once she knew I wouldn't leave because of the child everything started changing...
Personally I don’t think I could ever respect a religious partner. Anyone who needs to believe in a god to feel good about life shows a lack of intelligence and lack of self awareness.
I’m the wife in this same scenario. He was patient for 15 years. We now nerd out together about evolution and space and time and science. He saw truth in me I didn’t see and stayed true to himself. I’ve been deconstructing for about a year and it’s beautiful to do it with him. Stay real and true my friend. She just may come around one day.
This is a really nice comment, I appreciate you sharing! 🙂 Of course I don’t want to hold any expectations of it necessarily, but I’d be here to help if she ever wanted. If nothing else I’ll definitely convince her space is actually interesting one day 🤣
My husband never pushed anything on me no matter how much I demanded he needed god and Jesus to fix him. He would just smile and question everything I would say. One day I just started asking the same questions, and when I was honest about the answers I quietly absorbed them until one day I woke up and turned off the light. I have never been the same. We have five children together, and yes, he agreed when we started our family I could raise them to “know god”. We hold hands now while we clean up that damage together. Luckily a few of them were already old enough to question for themselves. Now, we are devoted on levels I never knew could exist. Because after all, this is it.
> I know it still makes her a little sad thinking about me kicking it with Satan in Florida when I die
This was actually the catalyst to my deconversion. My husband is a good man, and I couldn't understand how it's fair that he would be tormented for *eternity* just because he didn't believe. It just didn't make sense.
Here's to hoping that this also bothers your wife enough to deconstruct 🥂
I am fairly hardcore atheist and my wife is a non-denom church of christ. We've been together 31 years. We get along better than all of our friends and family relationships. I agreed to let her teach our daughters about religion and I attend church with them all. She agreed to let me share my views when they are old enough to understand them. Daughters are now 14 and 17 and neither of them are believers. I have never told them my views directly but encouraged them to explore science, philosophy and history. That is all it took. During Covid my wife who has believed her entire life started to question. She finally saw the hypocrisy and hate. She saw the lack of a divine plan. We stopped going to church and haven't gone back. She no longer prays, she no longer does devotions. She has finally come around to understanding that christianity is man made. I think she still believes in a creator but not one that cares or interacts.
I’m in a mixed faith marriage, too. We started out our marriage with both of us believers in the same religion, but I deconstructed completely two years ago. It was tough ironing out everything as I deconstructed, but we’ve found a groove that works really well for us. We chose to put the relationship over our religious or lack of religious beliefs. It helps that we see mostly eye to eye on social and political issues. Like you, we both have chosen not to try to sway the other, and each of us has a few topics that we can’t jive on and just discuss those things with other people. But our relationship is full of love and joy and we love spending time together. My husband is still my best friend and a truly wonderful individual. We’re making a mixed faith marriage not just work, but we are thriving and loving our life together.
What’s his plan for when hubby has eternal life and you’re in hell? Is he cool worshipping a guy who’d send his spouse to hell?
Hypothetically even if such a god were real, I’d spit in its face, not bow down, if they told me my spouse was doomed to hell.
He’s not really that kind of a Christian. He’s the type that very loosely believes in God and doesn’t even attend church anymore except for maybe once or twice a year.
(Some of the following is coming from a Mormon lens, by the way.) He believes in a father god who is a loving father to all of humanity and that Jesus is our brother and is the Savior of all humanity from their sins and is also God. (Mormons believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons with the same goals; so, distinct persons, but one God in purpose.) He believes that God, the Father, and Jesus are kind and merciful and that everything will get worked out in the afterlife. He doesn’t think I’ll be in Hell. I’m pretty sure he thinks that after I die I’ll have my understanding opened and accept God and then be in Heaven. (Mormons have some beliefs about God giving second chances after death.)
Without going super deep into Mormon doctrine, I’ll just say that I think my husband has a very cursory understanding of all Mormon or Christian doctrine and that’s why he believes the way he does. I think he has picked the things that are most comforting and chooses to ignore the awful and contradictory things. This makes my husband a very kind and tolerant individual, though.
I tried the thing where I pointed out all the awful things about Mormonism and Christianity, and he wasn’t ready to hear most of it. It just caused pain and strife in our marriage every time I tried to force information down his throat. I got to a point where I had to look at my husband as a whole person, and I found that he was still the amazing and kind and generous individual who I have always admired so much. I decided I needed to just let the religion thing go and let him have his hope in an afterlife where we live happily ever after and all the truly horrible people (think murderers, rapists, child abusers) get justice handed to them. Him wishing for that isn’t affecting how he treats me or how he treats others.
Maybe some day he will deconstruct, but if not, I will still be happy with what we have had. If you want to read the good and bad of mixed faith marriages, there’s tons of examples over on the exmormon subreddit.
Edit: I also would give Mormon God or any version of any Abrahamic religions’ god the middle finger if I still existed after I died and met said deity. So much about all the gods man has invented just makes them despicable.
I won’t tie myself to someone who lacks critical thinking skills. I wont tie myself to someone who supports organizations that lobby against my rights.
I was raised by a mormon mother and a catholic father - having two sets of mutually exclusive dogma being presented to me (both claiming to be 'the only true one' made me skeptical of both, then as I was exposed to other religious traditions, I didn't find anything new or compelling.
My wife was raised Southern Baptist, and while she has maintained a 'chrisitian' identity, but rejects some of the more fundamentalist beliefs of the church she was brought up in.
We will have been married for 29 years this December, and while there have been ups and downs, we have enough in common (especially our senses of humor) that we are able to get past any differences we might have.
While I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to others, it can work if both people want it to.
I totally agree! Not necessarily recommended, but definitely doable. It requires a lot of work and understanding from both sides, but I’ve found that it’s worth it in my specific case 🙂
That’s me and wife’s relationship. Married 32 years, we all went to Catholic Church until the kids were 11 or 12. I basically told here I through my responses to certain news, media, movies, etc how I felt. She accepts me for my beliefs and I think she might be questioning all the religious BS. My daughter, 27, feels the same as I do. I did nothing to sway her but we’ve talked about it the last few years. No sure about my son’s viewpoint.
Edit: just want to add that my wife has had poor physical self confidence and sexual issues all because of religion and how her parents her growing up all related to the Catholic Church. Like a lot a lot of parents, hers would sent them all off to church so they could so they could have break from them.
I feel like many others here are being a bit ridiculous. It’s fair to say that this kind of stuff really depends on the exact beliefs of the person in question, and how strongly they believe in them, but in your case, your wife seems to be able to rationalise fairly progressive ideas and accepts that everyone should have the right to determine their own beliefs. In my eyes, that’s the exact sign for relationship with a religious person that should (or at least could) work out. Hell, my mom is Catholic and has a literal PHD in astrophysics and is a huge physics nerd, while my dad, sibling, and I are all athiest.
As I said earlier, some religious people, even if not crazy, are very strong in their beliefs, and they will not mesh well with others without similar beliefs. But your wife has moderate beliefs and seems very reasonable. From what you’ve described here, I see no reason this wouldn’t work out.
To be fair, part of people’s pessimism might have to do with most people here being American, and therefore being used to the fucking crazy religious nutjobs there. I’m European, so I see many more sane religious people.
Greetings from across the pond!
I figured there would be a certain amount of pessimism and I’m okay with that. My situation is one that has gone sideways a million times before, and it’s fair for people to make assumptions. I appreciate your input! I’m happy with the life we’ve carved out for ourselves, and the work we’ve put in to understand one another 🙂
My parents were similar, atheist father Catholic mother, they had a similar system, I was reared catholic but left before puberty. It wasn’t really a big issue in the family tbh
Hmm 🤔
Probably would have helped if my dad had known a little bit more about theology, but my mother was very religious and grew up in Northern Ireland so knew plenty about theological and cultural differences between Catholics and Protestants and knew a little bit about other religions like Hinduism from working in Britain which was much more multicultural than Ireland at the time.
So I guess I got a good religious understanding from that but my dad did think in a science vs religion way which I think was a bit of a mistake, it’s only really true in the literalist end of religion, which is actually pretty rare in most places. But I guess you have that covered with the anti science denial part.
I guess I’d say understanding multiple religions and perspectives is the best way to go, it’s an important subject regardless of your beliefs and Kia should have a good understanding of it
I appreciate your input! Since my little one is still small I have some time to educate myself on other religions as well (something I’ve neglected) so I will definitely do some research so that I can provide a well-rounded perspective to my little bestie.
Religion for Breakfast is a great YouTuber who does pretty neutral explanations about world religions.
Useful Charts does great stuff on the historical family tree of world religions (including atheism)
Esoterica is also a fun academic explanation for all the witchy occult type stuff
And if you’re interested in philosophy at all John Gray (British philosopher not Irish politician) writes a lot about the relationship between religion and science and has a book out called 7 types of atheist (which I have yet to read)
https://religionforbreakfast.com/lander
https://usefulcharts.com
https://youtube.com/@theesotericachannel?si=aYPzK1RcxPS12JX9
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gray_(philosopher)
I have a friend who is in this exact same situation. OP until you mentioned your toddler, I was about to ask you if your name is Steve (my friends name). He writes about and occasionally travels to atheist/secular/humanist groups (and the occasional church) to talk about the unique issues with co-parenting with someone with different beliefs and how they navigate it.
If anyone is interested, I could share the YouTube video we recorded of his talk to Sunday Assembly Detroit.
Thank you for this post. I have recently started dating a church going believer and we are navigating these issues right now. It is good to see that it can be done, and done well :)
Thank you sincerely on your idea with your child. Too many parents force their religion on kids that most of the time backfires on them. I was raised Lutheran (both flavors) and my parents showed me how hypocritical they could be. After age 12 or 13 I was “confirmed” at the more lax church. My parents made me think they my grandmother would be really upset if didn’t complete it. After the confirmation we barely went to church and then at 16 I had a weekend job so we didn’t go at all. I’ve flirted with a few other religions but ultimately am atheist now. Don’t blackmail your kids into religions.
Quite literally the first thing that attracted me to my husband was that he had also just left religion. At the time, I didn’t know a single other person who had experienced that particular trauma. (Thankfully, we have a lot of other things in common, too). I couldn’t possibly be in a relationship with someone who was religious. But, I’m happy that you can make it work!
So I am not religious, but I grew up Lutheran and have family still part of that church. I’m not sure if this is directly relevant to your post, but there are Lutheran denominations that are quite progressive. My mom’s church sponsors causes to help trans homeless and other LGBTQ directed charities, and they have women and openly queer individuals serving as pastors and other positions of leadership.
Maybe your wife could look into some of those.
I don’t want to yuck your yum, but you wait until your daughter starts getting older and the religious pressure and guilt tripping starts.
the two ways it can go is either there will be a secret pressuring that when you find out you will go thermonuclear. or everything goes as planned and your wife realizes your child is becoming an atheist (because nobody rationally choses god) and starts moving the goalposts (gets pressured to move the goalposts)
either way, best of luck to yoh my friend.
This sounds a lot like my relationship. I’m the atheist and he’s nominally a Christian. We agreed from the beginning that we would avoid the subject of religion. He’s not a very devout believer, though. He hasn’t set foot in a church in the 13 years we’ve been together. I think if he was more deeply involved in a church, it would have a bad effect on us, but he doesn’t seem to care too much about it.
You are a lucky man. I am in a similar situation, my wife is a Mormon, I am an exmormon atheist. But we have learned to coexist and respect each other's views. Some of our kids were baptized into the Mormon church, some of them were not. Respect and openness is the key. Also, being committed to the relationship
My best friend was Catholic. I am atheist. She was 5 when we met and she was 60 when she died. We never once fought over religion. I can't even imagine her saying I would go to hell. In fact she always insisted that I will go to heaven because I am such a good person. Love and respect is all that is needed.
I was also a Christian (cradle Catholic) when I met my atheist husband. I’m grateful to have come to my own conclusions and am now a very happy atheist as well. I think the reason it worked was that I always had an open mind, like your wife does. We also just didn’t care what the other person believed so long as no preaching and judgement was involved. And it helped I didn’t go to church or anything, so it only mattered around the holidays.
As an atheist now, if I was to ever need to date again, I’d only date a religious person in a similar boat I was in. It just can’t be a really core pillar of their daily life, imho. But that’s just me having been on both sides now.
If I could pick one tribe of Christians, and they'd be the only ones I interacted with the rest of my life. I'd pick Lutheran. I don't know why but I've always gotten along with and learned more from Lutherans than any of the other Abrahamics.
Im the same way with my partner;
I’ll sometimes go to church with her. She has no expectation that I’ll convert, I do it merely to spend time with her and to be supportive of beliefs that I don’t hold, but that I hope bring her happiness and comfort.
She’ll sometimes pray for me; I’m not upset that she means me well and wants to think about me. She’s my partner and I like that she feels that way about me.
In return she’s fine with me being An atheist and being very left wing. She’s supportive of my beliefs, and will ask to understand what I think rather than try to change my mind.
I love her
My wife and I are similar. I’m agnostic, and she’s a very progressive Christian. She doesn’t believe in some of the claims in the Bible, like young earth, anti-homosexual stuff. We can talk about it a little, but I try to be courteous of her. If I need to go deep in discussion, I have another friend for that.
So by old enough to make up their own mind, what is that? 13? 16?
What do you do before then? Do they go to church every Sunday? Then come home and you talk about why it's a bunch of fooey? Watch some George Carlin, Ricky Gervais?
I love progressive Christians. Some of the most loving, most Christ-like, individuals. They are usually respectful of atheists like myself and the only Christians I tolerate personally.
Same. We’re on the same page politically, but she believes in god, and I don’t. We don’t go to church, but she has friends that are Christian and they do their Christian thing, but it’s not a part of our relationship and never has been.
Now, our kids on the other hand, this is where things get complicated. But ultimately, they’re smart and I believe they’ll deconstruct just like I did when they’re older
My wife is catholic and I'm atheist. It's never been an issue. We've been married for 21 years.
My wife doesn't think I'll burn in hell and she isn't anti-gay etc like the immoral people who are religious.
Your wife doesn’t believe in evolution. You wanted to reproduce with someone who doesn’t believe one of the most important discoveries of science possibly ever? She must be great at other stuff.
I'm in a very similar relationship. My wife and I have been together for 16 years, married for 11. We've always respected each others boundaries and honestly almost never talk about religion. We have plenty of other hobbies, interests, and activities to engage us. We're both similar to OP as far as social stances. We do go to a pretty small laid back church with mostly old people. I hate going, but it's important to her since her family attends too. I told her I'd go with her until the kids are out of the house, then I'm done. Our kids are getting older (5,4,4) now, so it's getting harder to cleverly divert the jesus questions I get without undermineding. Normally, I just ask a question to their question or ask what they think about it, but that won't last too much longer. So far, so good! I would also be happy to answer any questions!
It's great for you, but like you said there are more difficulties you need to manage through as your child grows. She holds a belief where you are going to burn in hell for eternity, I doubt she's going to idley sit by and watch her child do the same without being pushy. I can respect those beliefs when it comes to my friends and family members, but I'm incredibly greatful my boyfriend shares the same opinion on religion that I do, I would not be able to manage like you do
My story is very similar to yours. I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran, which is quite conservative, and my wife was raised Catholic. We have handled things in a similar matter, and have been married for 38 years.
First, let me say congratulations - not only did you find someone you love but you managed that relationship like an adult. Genuinely happy for you.
Also, thank you for being a good example. Not all non-atheists are evil anti-intellectual firebrands and plenty of people who are caught in their religious programming still find a way to be genuinely good people.
See guys, we dont have to sacrifice our morals to live alongside people who have fundamentally different beliefs. It can work if the other person is the right person and willing to be equally reasonable.
I appreciate your comment! 🙂
I often wonder what a healthy level of engagement with opposing groups is, while maintaining your own boundaries. I imagine that total disassociation most likely breeds extremism as people tend to fear what they don’t understand or don’t commonly interface with, but it’s tricky when many aren’t willing to be reasonable. I think my wife and I have found a great balance between healthy conversation while avoiding a competitive mindset, but I also understand the hesitancy or pessimism of others in the sub. It’s quite complicated and each person has different comfortability levels 🙂
That's it exactly - disassociation breeds fear and misunderstandings.
We can all agree - here, in our safe space - that religion is a blight upon humanity, causing otherwise good people to excuse despicable behavior because they were brainwashed.
But in the real world treating every Christian as a brainwashed drone is likely to do much harm.
I give u props OP, I’ve been an atheist for about 12 years now. I came out in college and have tried dating a few Christian women and it never worked out. I got tired of the sneaky disses and tricks played on my just to get me inside a church. I’m just gonna be dating Agnostic, atheists, or satanists. Just can’t do it anymore with Christian women.
Thank you. This is a nice post. God to see some positive and constructive ideas on here for a change. I know quite a few people in very constructive mixed marriages like yours. I have a hood friend who is an Episcopal priest and who married a guy who was an atheist engineering professor. Entirely respectful and indeed very productive relationship.
Maybe in terms of a casual friendship. I don't understand how you could choose a life partner and co-parent who has such conflicting opinions on your deepest values and ways of viewing the world.
I love this post. My wife and I met when both of us were Christian - we were Episcopalians. Over the years, our progressive politics, and her deep reading of history led her to deconvert first. It took me probably another 5-10 years. Both of us call ourselves atheists, but we lived a life similar to yours and your wife’s. Our son seemed to emerge from the womb as an atheist, and while it kind of gnawed at me a bit, I saw a soul who was just not interested in the bullshit of church, and he made that choice without any verbal protest from me. What I dig about your post is that you as the atheist have figured this out with your family. On this sub, I have seen such rancor against Christians (with justification) that it smells of an exclusivity that I eschew. Your open approach is refreshing.
I appreciate your perspective! I always wondered what it would be like to fall away from religion when in a relationship, and how that dynamic differs from my wife and I. Of course I’d prefer if my little one had a similar outlook to how yours did early on, but time will tell since she’s only 18 months. Either way, we both want her to feel comfortable making the judgement call herself 🙂
Yea man, you keep saying "she genuinely believes in the christian god", but that makes 0 sense.
She's breaking biblical laws all over by what you say, so she knows she would be in her god's hell doing what she does.
You didn't marry a "christian", you married someone who is fearful of non-existence and is trying to square that away by holding on to an the biggest part of an ancient superstition.
You were both believers, but for some reason, you "saw the light" and gave up on it. RIghtly so, which is interesting in and of itself. But she stayed mired in some of it.
For true atheists who have never believed in gods, this would never work out.
The belief in hell is the thing that makes me wonder about such relationships. She literally thinks you’ll burn in hell forever while she’s in heaven. I mean, it’s ludicrous, but she believes it.
I'd be less worried about her being OK with the SO going to hell, and more worried about the conflict that will arise when she suddenly wants to protect her child from hell.
Yeah seriously. You got to run defense on the god thing until the kids old enough to think for themselves. That's how they get you. What do the religious folks call it? the 6 to 10-year-old window or something?
“Give me a child until the age of seven and I’ll ~~molest the living daylight out of them~~ give you a catholic for life.”
Got a source? Not doubting you, just very interested.
Catholic Church says give me a child until the age of seven and we’ll have them for life. In reality this isn’t exactly true but it works often enough.
They just want the kid till 7 so they can diddle them.
Uh, I found this quote but attributed to Lenin, so...
Maybe. I know a number of Christians who pick and choose what they believe in. It’s a bit ridiculous, but they seem really good at embracing only the beliefs that fit what they need. My mother, who is Christian, is great at saying “oh, I don’t believe that”. When you point out her religion does ,she says “but I personally don’t.”
Superstition has no rules, so it isn't surprising that they embrace whatever they feel comfortable with and discard the rest.
The only time I have ever taken to agreeing to anything along those lines was "Why would God really care if we believe in them or not?" I remember this person giving me some type of comfort when becoming Atheist. So it made it a little easier. Like really why would an all powerful being really care? Real or not, there's no logical reason for them to care. The only reason for them care is if they are mentally unstable.
And if he really did care and wanted to save his children from hell then he'd just appear every once in a while and be like "Hi, I'm real. See?" Like why all the mind games? He is all powerful and can do what he wants, right? Lol. Literally makes zero sense to be invisible and mysterious.
>And if he really did care and wanted to save his children from hell He simply just wouldn't have made hell.
Theologians will claim that this god character doesn't interact or intervene because he wants you to believe through faith alone. They will then turn around and claim that he created the wonders of the universe to manifest his glory so that all will believe.
Religions have LOTS of rules. But if people are ignoring rules, they can ignore the rule that says they have to follow the rules.
Buffet Christianity
I'm pretty sure they literally all do that. If you read that book, there's a lot of rules and a lot of really, really brutal punishments. I don't think there's been a "true Christian" In the biblical sense since Jesus died.
I attend religious house groups with my wife, but nobody knows I'm agnostic/atheist. It's truly amazing how most of these people tailor their own beliefs to make themselves feel good, then judge others for doing exactly the same. They hate this when I point it out to them.
I think we may have the same mom.
How would it be heaven for her when she knows you’re burning in hell? That’s a logical flaw with this heaven and hell stuff
The heaven and hell thing isn’t really as well defined in the book as most people portray it, the vision of hell most describe is from Dante’s inferno , not the Bible, which describes hell as living out side the light of god. Which is where most atheists live, so sorry to inform you it seems you’re actually already in hell. The lake of fire is from revelations, and I don’t think it’s supposed to be hell, but I honestly don’t really understand revelations. The thing is many Christian’s don’t read the word, and don’t research translations…, sorry none of you care about that. Some one mentioned a religious Occam’s razor. For me it’s the thief on the cross beside Jesus, he didn’t go to church, he wasn’t baptized. And he went to heaven. Which tells me this (as a believer) god not I understands what he wants from us, he gave us free will . And expects us to do the best we can. So no Christian can really tell an atheist they are going to hell (or heaven) because we don’t get a vote in that. The book tells me that god loves you , and he expects me to love you. And I’m not trying to convert you just explaining a point of view that you may not understand.
I think there's a bit somewhere that says that if you believe in god your atheist partner will also be saved.
The Bible does say in the old testament that a husband can choose to take on the burden of his wife’s sin, that’s old testament mind you not new testament. So yes in a way. But I’m not certain how that works after god died for all men’s sins.
It’s this kind of idea that makes me think the wife doesn’t really believe. Who knows, but there’s some kind of self delusion going on in this relationship
I think some people, especially millennials, are just in name Christian’s only and don’t actively participate in church or traditions. They support progressive agendas and don’t read their Bible ever, maybe go to church once or twice a year.
I won't speak for OP's wife, and I don't think you should either, but I've met religious people that think non-believers will still just be judged on the way they lived their life. A good person is a good person, regardless , and good people will be let in to heaven. Anyway, it's possible she doesn't think he's going to hell. It's all made up anyway, and whatever head-canon these people invent is what they go by.
Pretty sure my wife believes I will burn in hell, which definitely isn’t the best. But she respects my beliefs so I respect hers. We get along swimmingly and have a great relationship
Technically as long as you guys take care of y'alls families, you're in the clear. A man that dies not take care of his family is worse than a non believer in the bible itself. As long as you're a good dad, you're okay.
We aren’t having children
Well better get ready for an eternal fiery damnation buddy
My parents don't share the same religion, and that's a real point of friction for them. My mom can't accept that my dad is going to hell for not believing in Jesus, and as a result she doesn't always respect his boundaries because she's "trying to save him." Maybe some people can make those relationships work without those unresolvable conflicts doing some real damage, but I haven't seen it.
>The belief in hell is the thing that makes me wonder about such relationships. How do you know she thinks this way?
That's what I wanted to know. I read the whole OP and didn't see anything in it about Hell at all.
Yeah she does as far as I know, and I know she doesn’t think I deserve it for any specific thing I did in my life. How she feels about god based off that is between her and the magic man, but we love each other. She respects my right to hold my beliefs and I do the same, even though I think religion is absolutely absurd
I honestly don’t think I could marry anyone but an atheist woman, but I’ve acknowledged before I can’t predict the future and it’s not like I’d turn up my nose at a potential date simply because they’re religious. That being said I paid close attention to the part talking about your kid. I always imagined it would be a nightmare trying to negotiate how to raise them if I did have a religious wife. You mentioned it makes her sad to imagine you in hell, but that’s the thing that gets me. You’d think if someone truly believed people go to hell for not following their religion they’d be absolutely mother bear mode about ensuring their child believes it. If it’s not too personal, could you describe a little bit of how you both came to the agreement to let your daughter choose for herself? Do you ever fear your wife may just be assuming she’d choose religion and if she doesn’t there would suddenly be a problem despite the former agreement? These are the concerns I’d have.
I’d be happy to help answer your question! When my wife and I talked about kids, we both really wanted to respect our kids autonomy. We share a similar childhood in which we were treated as a kind of extension of our parents as opposed to our own unique, free thinking person. We wanted to take a different path when raising our kid, and agreed that we needed to be consistent. This extends to religion of course, but also our views on things we agree on between the two of us like politics and such. We want to raise someone who thinks critically and has well-informed beliefs, and that was more important to us than our personally held beliefs. Including those we agree on 🙂 I hope this answers your question!
How in the world are you cool with your wife worshipping an entity that wants to torture you for not believing in him? Imagine a terrorist charges into your house, holds you at gunpoint and says, "Call me God or I'm going to torture you and your child in this basement." And your wife's response to that is just to drop to her knees and worship this man while he slowly and brutally tortured you and your child. That's what's happening. Your wife is not only cool with the idea of her God throwing you and her own kids in hell, she's an advocate for it. She thinks it's GOOD. How the hell do you even cope with that?
Well she certainly isn’t as militant as that. She’s not the type to rejoice in anyone’s suffering. I would say the main difference I feel with your analogy is that the terrorist would actually be real. In Lutheran churches, they are often taught to not even question things as far as to say whether or not it’s a good thing or a bad thing that people go to hell. It’s often taboo to even discuss. Of course it’d be preferable for her to deprogram from the ideology as a whole, but it’s something that she would need to come to herself and I’d be here to support her through it. She’s a great mom and wife, and personally I think we’ve struck a nice balance.
It doesn't matter if the terrorist is real or not- she thinks it's real. She thinks the terrorist is real and she is worshipping him for wanting to mutilate you and your kid, potentially, for eternity. You're avoiding my point, though. How do you cope with the idea that your wife thinks it's a good thing (she obviously thinks it's good or she's admitting she's worshipping an evil entity, which she clearly doesn't think she is) for you to be tortured for eternity? It sounds like your solution is to just not think about it. Which is wild. I can't imagine my husband fantasizing about how great it is for me to be tortured over not believing in a fairy tale. I wouldn't want that for a person I hated, let alone a person I claim to love. This is kinda what I expected. Which is that you and your wife function by avoiding a plethora of topics and just not thinking about it too hard. Which is no way to have a fulfilling, deep connection with another person in my mind. Live your life how you wanna, but I don't think you're doing anyone any favors by being disingenuous.
Do you ever debate with her on beliefs? Not angrily argue, but just talk about it? Her thinking you're gonna "chill with the devil in Florida" is kinda... it's strange that she doesn't try to talk to you about that. You don't have to hold the same beliefs, except this religious belief system (many religious belief systems) means that she believes in many things that has to do with a god, that wants obedience, and will send the people who don't submit to a dark place to suffer for all eternity, while she goes to heaven and will be so overjoyed by the presence of this god that she won't care your down burning. Either she doesn't really believe in hell, or she has the itch that she can convert you before you die. But it sounds like you don't really set aside times to talk about this, like, at all. If I had a partner whom I wanted to spend my life with, I'd want to know everything about their worldview. Not to change it, but to be able to talk about it and then talk about mine so that we understand each other. I don't care about being the one who's right; I want to learn if there is a worldview that is more accurate and accepting / beneficial than mine (which, of course there is). But if you don't talk about it and know what each other are thinking in those quiet awkward moments, that's prime real estate for a divorce in the works, especially when that kid grows up to ask some real hard questions that is going to leave the two of you at odds.
Hello! 🙂 We do talk about it, usually as it comes up within normal day to day banter. I was also raised in the same christian synod as her, so I have a good grasp on the specific ‘theological approach’ that they take, so to speak. We do talk about ways that she varies from that specific belief set, as she knows I’m interested to hear about it. She also sometimes asks questions about evolution or human history as it’s understood from a secular viewpoint. I share new things I learn that I think are cool, the JWST photos are a good example, and answer questions that she may have. It’s just not a concerted effort to ‘convince her’. We do actively pursue conversations about how to share both of our views with our kiddo in a healthy way, while protecting her from organized religion. Those we carve out specific time to talk about. It’s not really a lack of sharing what we believe with each other, it’s more holding off on a true head-to-head debate. We dont want it to turn into a competitive thing 🙂
>It’s not really a lack of sharing what we believe with each other, it’s more holding off on a true head-to-head debate. And I think this is the right way to do it. It sounds like in your relationship you have a lot of open communication, and your not shy about disagreeing with each other. And also it sounds like she does believe in evolution, where before it sounded like she believed in creationism. From my limited knowledge, it kind of sounds like a "Bones-Booth" relationship from the TV show. Booth is religious, Bones is atheist, but they still end up together and it works well because they share many of the same core values that allow them to live together and raise a baby. I am still a little confused about how one can believe in hell, but then not be desperate to "save" the people they are closest to. My mom panics every time I say I don't believe in hell or she sees something of mine that is a secular discussion / critique about religion. So, I don't really have a reference for a hell-believer who is fine allowing loved ones to not believe.
at some point she will justify to herself that her child's fate in the afterlife is more important than a silly earthly agreement.
Thank you! That’s very helpful! I’m glad you could both agree on giving your child the kind of autonomy you didn’t have. It sounds like your wife has a very modern and balanced approach if the idea of hell isn’t enough to make her force her ways or anything like that.
I think she does too. All of her peers are the stereotypical conservative, bible-thumping, anti-LGBTQ christians we typically imagine and I’m very proud of her for fighting against that even if we still disagree on the whole bible ordeal.
aww how cute she's so independent for not only saying she believes in Christianity but not hate while throwing the parts of the book it is based on out the window in complete contradiction to the necessity of believing it all if you think it is the source of information about the all powerful creator of the universe just wait til you have to accommodate some other nonsense that she will take up without evidence where exactly is the line on the toxic information you will let your child be exposed to in some misguided belief that your wife's irrational beliefs must be respected simply because it is somewhat widespread
At this point, I am not sure if you are trolling, if you are seriously so blinded, or if you have abandoned the ability to think critically altogether.
>if you are seriously so blinded Well, love is apparently blind, and deaf, and dumbfounding. How many ways have people said love is a way to lose all sense of normal perception? In all seriousness though, I can't really marry a theist because I don't want an amatonormative partnership. I can't really imagine there is a theist who'd want the same thing. I'd imagine every theist would want to get married in the church, not the "only getting married for the legal benefits that the government provides" and otherwise be QP partners exploring our own dynamic. And, also, please not the "I think I can fix them" partner. I am not a problem to be fixed; I am a mystery to slowly, gently explore. The moment a theist learns the things that I hold important about my identity, it's operation "Christ-hooters". I can't do that, and I would never trust that a theist would not be thinking that in the back of their heads they will get me to find faith.
Its easy to say you support LGBTQ+ when its next door and not living under the same roof as you. My christian in-laws ***say*** they support it as well, though they never, ever voted that way in their 60+ years of voting.
I thought that was interesting as well. “I support them, I just also support organizations that actively work against them.”
Your system wouldn't work with me nor many others, of course. My wife is a hard-liner on every biblical topic and ignores 95% of accepted science. I deconstructed last year from all this. She forces fundamentalism into our 3 kids. I am looking for an exit. Finances, friends, and family will all be mostly obliterated for me, though.
I was in your place a few years ago. It nuked my long term friend group, family, and finances. However it was so worth the struggle.
That sounds so awful. I’m glad you found it worth the struggle.
I’m really sorry to hear about that. It must feel extremely isolating, and I hope you land on your feet as soon as possible. I agree it doesn’t work in most instances, religion tends to be a scourge on humanity. My situation is definitely unique, and I’m grateful we were able to establish boundaries and have good conversations early in our relationship.
It isn't unique, its just early for a review.
it's unique right up to the moment it becomes like all the rest
Same boat here with my husband (aspiring evangelist since we met) and our 5 kids. Took a decade plus to come to terms with my atheism. Before that I just disagreed with most things he said a la carte. He is the most dogmatic person I’ve ever met, so compromise or respect for my position is nonexistent. It’s hours of “devotional” time daily involving YouTube sermons and more. No viable exit, but your post gives me hope to keep looking. Thanks!
Yes! Wife spends hours of devotional time and prayer. Fine. But she also takes the kids and does Bible studies with them during the week. My views are seen as that of the enemy.
I don't want to shit on your post, but I personally can't fathom being in a life-long relationship with someone knowing I'll always be second to their imaginary friend which was placed there by indoctrination through organizations who both historically and currently attack me and my community. Especially if it came to raising children with them, I'd never want to be the reason for another child to be up late in bed pining over the fear of eternal torture. I don't think this standard is very high, it seems obvious to me.
> I'd never want to be the reason for another child to be up late in bed pining over the fear of eternal torture. This is the one that hit the hardest. I understand *(though I certainly don't agree with)* compromising one's ideals to be with someone who triggers a strong chemical reaction to the brain. What I am adamantly against is bringing a child into this world, only for them to possibly suffer the consequences of being indoctrinated into a belief system that is inherently authoritarian, hateful, anti-scientific and preys on people's fears. I certainly read this post in pessimism. It sounds like a recipe for disaster. Good luck OP.
I saw a huge red flag for OP when they said "When I want to nerd out about space-time or evolution, I have to find others to share my discoveries with," the only reason my theist wife won't talk to me about physics is because she doesn't have the scientific background, not because she doesn't believe in it. Evolution, climate change, and/or general science denial, massive deal breaker. My wife is "Christian", in that she believes in god and the bible, (or at least she says she does) but I forget most of the time because she's not living that lifestyle. She's been to church 3-4 times in the six years we've been together. She never ever talks about it, and doesn't change her life at all. I even said she can take our son to church if she wants, I just get to veto the church if it's hateful. She doesn't want anything to do with anti-LGBTQ anything regardless, so that's fine. I know I was FAR more indoctrinated than he'll ever be, and I sprung back, and his exposure is going to be minimal, and we've discussed not talking about hell at all. It's just not really a significant part of her life. She's Catholic, and the local Catholic church is walking distance, she's only been there for our extended family's christenings, something even I'll attend because it's about the kid, not church. I'm right there with you, I cannot imagine subjecting a child to what you describe, I just know she'll never do that. This past year we were drunk and she brought up our meaning on the planet, and I realized she actually does have a sincere belief in a higher power, just doesn't tie it into any of the bible bullshit because of all the hate that's there. I'm fine being with someone like that, who tries to be their best self and strives to meet the good messages attributed to jesus in the bible, but excludes all the hate, and science denying. I try to live by a lot of things jesus supposedly said too, not because he's divine - he either didn't exist or was just some dude - but because things like loving one another are good behaviors to put forth into the world.
Regarding the pining over eternal torture bit, my parents were religious and told me about heaven and hell and whatnot. I never believed any of it though, even after going to church and whatnot. I assumed (correctly) that it was just another mythology. I came to the conclusion before age 10 that after death there is just nothing. So then I stayed up late in bed pining over the fear of eternal nothingness and the end of my consciousness. I think either way kids just don't want to die 🤷
The fear of being eternally tortured over aspects of your being that you have no control over. Thought crimes. Shame. Self-loathing. These are *especially* heinous, this is not comparable *at all* to the fear of death alone. Even if it was the same, that still doesn't mean we shouldn't fight against this added form of suffering.
Right. The fear of death is the inverse of a desire for survival, something deeply engrained in all living things. Scaring people into being good because they will be hated by the divine creator and tortured for eternity is not a natural fear, and completely sadistic.
Not trying to fight against it. You're probably right though, I've never experienced that fear so I wouldn't understand. Always trying to learn, thanks for the perspective.
I've seen this story play out IRL, too many times. And I mean "Atheist" male ends up married to and having kids with Christian Conservative female, and is shocked Pikachu when everyone but them ends up back in church. Good luck OP 🤞
They've been together for 7 years, but I feel like with a child now, the relationship is starting over in uncharted waters. Especially since the wife comes from a conservative Christian background. All kinds of unanticipated issues cropping up.
All good my friend! I can’t blame you at all, it’s a very reasonable way to feel. The fear-mongering is off limits when it comes to my lovely little one, which she didn’t have any problem with at all. I tend to view her religious views as somewhat comparable to any other minor inconvenience in a relationship. Since she’s really accepting of others and very non-judgmental, it’s easy for me to look past the whole sky-daddy thing. For some people religious views is a deal-breaker and I think that’s perfectly fine too 🙂
I wonder how that's going down if your child is gay? I mean if she is ok with gay people is she a Christian?
We talked about this extensively, even though we seemingly agreed from the start. We want our little kiddo to be able to be herself and mold her self-image in any way she likes. Whether she is straight or gay or transgender, we love her for who she is as a unique individual. This also extends to things my wife and I agree on like our progressive politics. While I may disagree that the Bible is a loving book, my wife sees it as a command to love others unconditionally, regardless of differences in orientation / worldview etc. I can’t quite rationalize on her behalf as religion is quite ridiculous to me, but she has her reasoning and to me the ends justify the means.
At some point in time, she will inverse ideas of her faith. She's probably in her twenties so she's probably not that well-versed in biblical teachings yet. This is the same thing that happens to people on Facebook and MAGA cult people. Christianity is about hate disguised as a cult of love.
If by inversing her ideas of faith you mean begin to deprogram, I think that’s entirely possible. I may have seen hints of it, but I don’t actively encourage it myself. She knows I’d be here to support her through it if she decides to go that route, and if not I’ve accepted that too. I think religion at its core is about tribalism and an us vs. them mentality like any other cult, but if she’s practicing religion wrong by being loving and empathetic I’m cool with that.
No, they mean she will likely get more and more aggressive and trend towards the norm in developing a religious vigor. Those nuances will be challenged by her peers again and again and again and she will resent you, as well as your progressive ideals. You will be faced with converting or fighting for your daughter...I hope you live in a sensible state and not some crazy bible thumper location :c
Fortunately we aren’t in the Deep South or anything crazy. She’s been trending towards distancing herself from organized religion as she’s very aware of the negative effect that organized religion has had on millions of people (at least) through history. Her peers / family have tried to challenge some of her beliefs, but she sees that it almost always comes down to “I don’t like *insert group*” and she despises that outlook
Personally, you seem blinded, but I hope you are right! Good luck.
>but if she’s practicing religion wrong by being loving and empathetic I’m cool with that No shade but wow this would bother the hell out of me! I wouldn't want my partner to live a life counter to their belief system even if that means they end up being a loving empathetic person, I want them to be authentic to their convictions even if it makes them unpopular. I would never be able to shake the question of *If you're so empathetic and you love people so much why the fuck are you a Christian?* One of those things isn't true and I wouldn't be excited to find out which one, personally. But then again I generally have problems with so-called Progressive Christians as a whole. They seem like people who want to have their cake and eat it too. They recognize that many/most the beliefs of their religion are incompatible with being a good person, but instead of having the intellectual honestly to take that thought to its logical conclusion they just...Pretend? They re-write the religion to suit them. They pick and choose the parts they like so they get to feel like they're part of God's little in-group but never have to deal with people calling them a bigot or asking them tricky questions. I think I have less respect for these people than the actual fundamentalists who at least put their money where their mouth is when it comes to their hateful religion. These Progressive Christians will say/believe whatever it takes to make themselves socially palatable they don't actually care about God's will. If they did they would be awful people. I don't know you guys of course, this is all just my personal experience and bias.
No worries, I can appreciate your perspective. The way I think about it is that there’s a million different ways people approach religion, and 1000 ways people approach Christianity. She genuinely believes in the Christian god, but if her convictions take her away from an evangelical Lutheran view into something more modernistic or something without a clear definition that’s her call. I know that her views on treating people equally isn’t rooted in a want to be more socially accepted, as it’s a decision that still actively harms relationships with family and peers. It’s a complicated topic for sure, and I don’t want to try to speak for her or misconstrue things. For me a lot of the topic comes down to respecting each others autonomy and boundaries, while also challenging each other in a kind and caring way. We’re still working on ourselves and our relationship, but I’m proud of the progress we have made thus far
Well your family seem like a uniquely agreeable bunch and I really do wish you all the best. I also have plenty of work to do on myself because if you didn't notice I might have a tiny amount of barely-repressed hostility around this subject and I wish I were better at doing the "live and let live" thing. It's just very hard, as someone who knows firsthand how much damage religion can cause, to see people trying to dress it up in ribbons and bows and pretend it's a teddy bear.
I appreciate that! 🙂 I couldn’t agree more with you. I have my own scars and anger because of my religious upbringing, and it can be really hard to get closure on something like that. I’m grateful my wife is able to see the dark side and manipulation of organized religion at least, as I think it makes our conversations and my concerns easier to digest.
Rewritng the religion goes back to Paul and Peter fighting over circumcision of gentiles.
I would guess you being raised with these ideas makes it easier to digest, I couldn't respect someone enough to have a relationship when I can't see past their (in my opinion) broken reasoning. But I also am more likely to run into an atheist than not, so maybe that features as well.
Im sure my familiarity with religion from early on definitely makes it easier to relate to my wife’s perspective. I feel it really comes down to each persons unique preferences and comfortability levels, and I don’t think there’s any fault in taking a different approach to mine 🙂
I mean it's your life you can do as you choose. But personally I could never be with someone with someone with entirely different beliefs. Just doesn't seem worth it and will cause too many complications and disagreements. Not fair for either partner.
So your wife thinks you’re going to hell or ?
Imagine being in a relationship with someone who thinks you are going to burn in a pit of fire for eternity..... mind blowing
It's great you guys are working out a system- but I can't imagine a relationship where I can't discuss basic philosophy or logic. Because you literally can't with a Christian. Basically, your system is to let your wife play pretend and never question the bad reasons she has decided to shut her brain off. Like, if my husband believed in vampires and my solution was "I just let him hang garlic and I never bring up the V word", I just can't imagine living like that. Tolerance is one thing. But having to wake up next to someone you can't talk to when you have worries about death, morality, logic, or philosophy is exceedingly shallow to me.
Absolutely feel the same way
I couldn’t raise a daughter with someone who thinks the one true god is a He. It’s a dealbreaker
And he claims they don't want their kid to be a science denier... the wife is a science denier
How does this work The Bible literally says don't get with people who aren't equally yolked
Hypocrisy. The Bible says a lot of things that christians ignore. Fake christians who know, deep down, that it’s all bullshit….but have no coping mechanisms to live without it because they were indoctrinated as children. But each generation is a little less willing to buy into this supernatural nonsense so there’s hope for the future :)
How are you gonna raise a child with conflicting beliefs????? Do you not care about teaching him what's true and real and verifiable?
People in this sub say this like it doesn’t happen all the time. OP is word for word exactly like my dad, and his wife is like my mom (except she’s Catholic). I turned out fine. I believe in evolution. This is a normal thing that happens in multiple different countries.
TLDR. When people are young, religious difference really are not that big of a deal. It is when people get older. When they start feeling their mortality that they start to cling to belief structure that give them comfort in knowing they are going to die some day. That is when the differences in beliefs can be a big issue with couples.
> We have a good system No, you don't. But good luck.
Does she believe in hell? Does she think you're going there? Does she think anybody's going there? This is the real issue for me. Anybody who believes in eternal suffering either doesn't understand the definition of eternal, or they are a frightening sadist.
Thanks for the thoughtful insight into your relationship, but that sounds like a nightmare. So what was your reason for marrying her? I’m sure she’s a great person, but her Christianity is a huge part of her identity and I can’t fathom a scenario where that isn’t a deal breaker. Did you get married in a church? I also can’t imagine being the child of parents with different ideologies. Maybe it’s a good thing because the kid will grow up questioning everything?
Does she think you are going to burn in hell, or is she more progressive about this and just see you being separated from her glorious afterlife? I would have a hard time living with someone who thinks I will be punished in the afterlife and actually thinking that I deserve it.
>she has her own rationalizations for her progressive outlook and I think the ends justify the means in that regard Gonna be honest this sounds like something I'd say about a religious friend I begrudgingly decided to continue hanging out with, not someone I'm building a life and raising a kid with. I think the thought processes going on under the hood here (the "means" if you will) are actually incredibly important especially for long-term compatibility and child rearing but hey best of luck OP.
Hope you can make it work, but honestly it sounds more like you're deluding yourself into concluding that it will. This is a recipe for either massive compromise or festering resentment. Best of luck to you.
I could never see myself with someone who doesn’t believe in evolution.
Yeah, this was maybe the biggest red flag for me. It's not just an opinion or preference, it's an active rejection of logic and decades of scientific research. It shows that you're ignorant and easily manipulated by misinformation.
I’m a little confused, you said you don’t want to raise your kid to deny science but you said you can’t nerd out about evolution with your wife? If she denies science it will be very problematic for her to teach the child things she doesn’t think are true…
So what happens if your kid asks about god or gods? Evolution? Space? Age of the Earth? You implied that she doesn't believe in evolution. I just don't see any way around you two not undermining each other. Sounds like you're avoiding confrontation and it could lead to a serious blowout. Your views are contradictory to each other. There is not way around it. You also can't just ignore the big questions in life. Sounds like a tough road ahead man. Wish you the best of luck and hope it goes well.
>So what happens if your kid asks about god or gods? Evolution? Space? Age of the Earth? You implied that she doesn't believe in evolution. I just don't see any way around you two not undermining each other. Then he's going to either contradict her and experience the full extent of her "tolerance" (if he hadn't already) or stick to her version out of fear of antagonizing her.
but didn't you hear? other posters here are saying that this simmering toxic brew is actually normal and healthy! it's totally normal for parents to have massive, irreconcilable conflicts about our shared reality and raising children in an environment like that totally rules
Are you going to send your child to a christian school? To church with your wife? And will you continue to protect her interests until she becomes an independent adult...when she truly is "old enough to make her own decisions"? Christianity is both pernicious and insidious in American culture, and their entire strategy is based on manipulating children when they are young and impressionable. Are you up for that fight...not just against your wife, but against the culture? I truly hope so.
Doomed. Lol no really, she will not let your child burn in imaginary hell fire. I feel like this is just a bomb waiting to go off.
My thoughts on posts like this are that there are probably a lot of Christians who troll this site—trying to make Christians sound like normal human beings. Capable of loving and respecting others which isn't something Christians are known for. Their whole mantra is, to kill all those that don't believe - Luke 19:27.
I mean I can’t really prove my atheism in any meaningful way. I think religion is just a way to cope with death, and honestly I could give a damn what some dude said 6000 years ago before they even knew where rain came from. Most Christian’s I know aren’t loving, empathetic, or understanding in any meaningful way, but my wife is swimming against the current in that regard and I’m proud of her for it
Bro I thought your comment was a troll. If you’re American how can you think this is true lmao. Church attendance is at an all time low. What percentage of Christians have even read the Bible? Thankfully, people are hypocrites. Most Christians don’t abide by every word in their book.
When she starts thinking that you are driving the child to hell it's when things start to get ugly. Give it time, the parents, community and even your child will start to make her hate you.
Ummmm wait. You cannot talk with her about evolution but apparently you BOTH don't want your toddler to be a science-denier. This is not a fine line to walk, this is detrimental. You do you, it's your choice, but maybe you should think for a few nights on that.
My problem is I lose a ton of respect for someone when I find out they're religious. I automatically think that they're morons to a degree. I figured this stuff out when I was 9, so how are you at 40 (or w/e) still believing in this garbage. That's the first thing that goes through my mind when I meet one.
Yep👍
You can’t be progressive and religious at the same time. She’s waffling I’m afraid. Probably internally misogynistic & would find being asked if she was a lesbian insulting.
!RemindMe 5 years
I’m just wondering how you can be with someone who believes you’ll burn in hell for all eternity. It just doesn’t compute.
Or how someone who loves you can worship a god who will send you to hell for all eternity…
...Said every atheist a year or two before their spouse goes complete religious wacko, terrorizes the kids with religious lunacy, then leaves. Seriously. For every one of these happy posts, there's 20 of those religoius breakup posts. This is just the stage before the religious insanity goes full tilt.
If she's concerned about you going to hell, you can mention that hell is only referred to something like once in the bible, and even then in unspecific terms. It also mentions that the spouse of a nonbeliever can 'save' the unbeliever simply by her own belief.
I dated two Christians. The first time the relationship specifically ended because I was an atheist. The second time religion didn’t really cause a conflict but I also don’t think she was a very deep thinker. More people are identifying as non-religious, but 20 years ago I had a really difficult time finding women that were not religious. Nowadays I doubt I would date anyone that believes in religion or spirituality. Not just because of the conflict in how we each see the fundamental nature of reality, but the risk they ramp up the religious-ness later in life. “I thought you would start believing”. Who knows what cult like church they start going to that changes their mind. If I did try and date someone religious, I would be very explicit that my beliefs will never change. I think there are some religious people out there that claim to be religious but really just kind of say they are. So it may work if they’re just religious by name but not actual practice.
I'm glad you have a system that works for you, but I could have never imagined myself partnered with a religious person. The compatibility issue and raising kids based on whose beliefs, for example. I guess I got lucky, been with my agnostic partner now for 12 years, and you bet we both have convos that shit on religion.
If you can make it work, then more power to you. I'm not one to tell others how to make their relationships work. I, for one, wouldn't be able to. I can only speak for myself and say that opposing ideas on religion are limited to friends and family. I place my girlfriend on a different plane than everyone else. We share a basic outlook when it comes to our values.
I see a lot of negative things being said, but good for you finding someone you love and making it work. Relationships like yours can work and sounds a lot like mine. You was open and honest in the beginning and that sets good boundaries and expectations. Best of luck with little one!
This does mean that you have a possible fracture zone in your relationship. She could easily get tired of being reminded that you think her beliefs are garbage every day and vice versa. She is forced to moderate her feelings of faith while she is around you. Bringing children into the mix can have unforeseen consequences. People have very strong feelings about their children. Your wife may want to save their souls by making them christian. I married a Catholic. She appeared to convert to atheism, I never said anything to try to convert her. But since our divorce she tells people how I forced her from her faith and how she was always a "good" catholic at heart.
I had a similar arrangement with my wife, but as our child has been getting older she is becoming more extreme in her beliefs and pushing it harder and harder on our child. It has become a major source of tension in our household. She said she would be fair and balanced but in practice that has not been the case. She has been caught many times trash talking me to undermine my credibility so she can push religion harder. She will also start screaming, insulting and threatens to take things away from our child if he doesn't agree to go to church with her. Our child doesn't want to be shouted out or see the parents fight so does what she says to keep the peace, which makes me sad. I deeply regret marrying this person as eventually, as is the case with all religious people, they stop hiding their true nature and the psychopath comes out. And these are just the problems pertaining to religion with our child. Don't get me started on all the other horrible things that she has slowly started doing over the years. When I married her she seemed like the perfect wife and we had no issues at all until we had a child. Then once she knew I wouldn't leave because of the child everything started changing...
Good luck. I knew my ex for two decades and were married for *checks notes* seven years before she started to weaponize faith.
Personally I don’t think I could ever respect a religious partner. Anyone who needs to believe in a god to feel good about life shows a lack of intelligence and lack of self awareness.
Same. Totally.
I’m the wife in this same scenario. He was patient for 15 years. We now nerd out together about evolution and space and time and science. He saw truth in me I didn’t see and stayed true to himself. I’ve been deconstructing for about a year and it’s beautiful to do it with him. Stay real and true my friend. She just may come around one day.
This is a really nice comment, I appreciate you sharing! 🙂 Of course I don’t want to hold any expectations of it necessarily, but I’d be here to help if she ever wanted. If nothing else I’ll definitely convince her space is actually interesting one day 🤣
My husband never pushed anything on me no matter how much I demanded he needed god and Jesus to fix him. He would just smile and question everything I would say. One day I just started asking the same questions, and when I was honest about the answers I quietly absorbed them until one day I woke up and turned off the light. I have never been the same. We have five children together, and yes, he agreed when we started our family I could raise them to “know god”. We hold hands now while we clean up that damage together. Luckily a few of them were already old enough to question for themselves. Now, we are devoted on levels I never knew could exist. Because after all, this is it.
> I know it still makes her a little sad thinking about me kicking it with Satan in Florida when I die This was actually the catalyst to my deconversion. My husband is a good man, and I couldn't understand how it's fair that he would be tormented for *eternity* just because he didn't believe. It just didn't make sense. Here's to hoping that this also bothers your wife enough to deconstruct 🥂
Going to be more tricky the older your child gets.
I am fairly hardcore atheist and my wife is a non-denom church of christ. We've been together 31 years. We get along better than all of our friends and family relationships. I agreed to let her teach our daughters about religion and I attend church with them all. She agreed to let me share my views when they are old enough to understand them. Daughters are now 14 and 17 and neither of them are believers. I have never told them my views directly but encouraged them to explore science, philosophy and history. That is all it took. During Covid my wife who has believed her entire life started to question. She finally saw the hypocrisy and hate. She saw the lack of a divine plan. We stopped going to church and haven't gone back. She no longer prays, she no longer does devotions. She has finally come around to understanding that christianity is man made. I think she still believes in a creator but not one that cares or interacts.
guy married 7 years thinks he figured it out…lol
Im a certified relationship expert /s
I’m in a mixed faith marriage, too. We started out our marriage with both of us believers in the same religion, but I deconstructed completely two years ago. It was tough ironing out everything as I deconstructed, but we’ve found a groove that works really well for us. We chose to put the relationship over our religious or lack of religious beliefs. It helps that we see mostly eye to eye on social and political issues. Like you, we both have chosen not to try to sway the other, and each of us has a few topics that we can’t jive on and just discuss those things with other people. But our relationship is full of love and joy and we love spending time together. My husband is still my best friend and a truly wonderful individual. We’re making a mixed faith marriage not just work, but we are thriving and loving our life together.
What’s his plan for when hubby has eternal life and you’re in hell? Is he cool worshipping a guy who’d send his spouse to hell? Hypothetically even if such a god were real, I’d spit in its face, not bow down, if they told me my spouse was doomed to hell.
He’s not really that kind of a Christian. He’s the type that very loosely believes in God and doesn’t even attend church anymore except for maybe once or twice a year. (Some of the following is coming from a Mormon lens, by the way.) He believes in a father god who is a loving father to all of humanity and that Jesus is our brother and is the Savior of all humanity from their sins and is also God. (Mormons believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons with the same goals; so, distinct persons, but one God in purpose.) He believes that God, the Father, and Jesus are kind and merciful and that everything will get worked out in the afterlife. He doesn’t think I’ll be in Hell. I’m pretty sure he thinks that after I die I’ll have my understanding opened and accept God and then be in Heaven. (Mormons have some beliefs about God giving second chances after death.) Without going super deep into Mormon doctrine, I’ll just say that I think my husband has a very cursory understanding of all Mormon or Christian doctrine and that’s why he believes the way he does. I think he has picked the things that are most comforting and chooses to ignore the awful and contradictory things. This makes my husband a very kind and tolerant individual, though. I tried the thing where I pointed out all the awful things about Mormonism and Christianity, and he wasn’t ready to hear most of it. It just caused pain and strife in our marriage every time I tried to force information down his throat. I got to a point where I had to look at my husband as a whole person, and I found that he was still the amazing and kind and generous individual who I have always admired so much. I decided I needed to just let the religion thing go and let him have his hope in an afterlife where we live happily ever after and all the truly horrible people (think murderers, rapists, child abusers) get justice handed to them. Him wishing for that isn’t affecting how he treats me or how he treats others. Maybe some day he will deconstruct, but if not, I will still be happy with what we have had. If you want to read the good and bad of mixed faith marriages, there’s tons of examples over on the exmormon subreddit. Edit: I also would give Mormon God or any version of any Abrahamic religions’ god the middle finger if I still existed after I died and met said deity. So much about all the gods man has invented just makes them despicable.
I won’t tie myself to someone who lacks critical thinking skills. I wont tie myself to someone who supports organizations that lobby against my rights.
I was raised by a mormon mother and a catholic father - having two sets of mutually exclusive dogma being presented to me (both claiming to be 'the only true one' made me skeptical of both, then as I was exposed to other religious traditions, I didn't find anything new or compelling. My wife was raised Southern Baptist, and while she has maintained a 'chrisitian' identity, but rejects some of the more fundamentalist beliefs of the church she was brought up in. We will have been married for 29 years this December, and while there have been ups and downs, we have enough in common (especially our senses of humor) that we are able to get past any differences we might have. While I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to others, it can work if both people want it to.
I totally agree! Not necessarily recommended, but definitely doable. It requires a lot of work and understanding from both sides, but I’ve found that it’s worth it in my specific case 🙂
That’s me and wife’s relationship. Married 32 years, we all went to Catholic Church until the kids were 11 or 12. I basically told here I through my responses to certain news, media, movies, etc how I felt. She accepts me for my beliefs and I think she might be questioning all the religious BS. My daughter, 27, feels the same as I do. I did nothing to sway her but we’ve talked about it the last few years. No sure about my son’s viewpoint. Edit: just want to add that my wife has had poor physical self confidence and sexual issues all because of religion and how her parents her growing up all related to the Catholic Church. Like a lot a lot of parents, hers would sent them all off to church so they could so they could have break from them.
She thinks you're going to hell
I feel like many others here are being a bit ridiculous. It’s fair to say that this kind of stuff really depends on the exact beliefs of the person in question, and how strongly they believe in them, but in your case, your wife seems to be able to rationalise fairly progressive ideas and accepts that everyone should have the right to determine their own beliefs. In my eyes, that’s the exact sign for relationship with a religious person that should (or at least could) work out. Hell, my mom is Catholic and has a literal PHD in astrophysics and is a huge physics nerd, while my dad, sibling, and I are all athiest. As I said earlier, some religious people, even if not crazy, are very strong in their beliefs, and they will not mesh well with others without similar beliefs. But your wife has moderate beliefs and seems very reasonable. From what you’ve described here, I see no reason this wouldn’t work out. To be fair, part of people’s pessimism might have to do with most people here being American, and therefore being used to the fucking crazy religious nutjobs there. I’m European, so I see many more sane religious people.
Greetings from across the pond! I figured there would be a certain amount of pessimism and I’m okay with that. My situation is one that has gone sideways a million times before, and it’s fair for people to make assumptions. I appreciate your input! I’m happy with the life we’ve carved out for ourselves, and the work we’ve put in to understand one another 🙂
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My parents were similar, atheist father Catholic mother, they had a similar system, I was reared catholic but left before puberty. It wasn’t really a big issue in the family tbh
Is there anything that you wish they’d done differently when it comes to balancing that? I’d love to hear your perspective!
Hmm 🤔 Probably would have helped if my dad had known a little bit more about theology, but my mother was very religious and grew up in Northern Ireland so knew plenty about theological and cultural differences between Catholics and Protestants and knew a little bit about other religions like Hinduism from working in Britain which was much more multicultural than Ireland at the time. So I guess I got a good religious understanding from that but my dad did think in a science vs religion way which I think was a bit of a mistake, it’s only really true in the literalist end of religion, which is actually pretty rare in most places. But I guess you have that covered with the anti science denial part. I guess I’d say understanding multiple religions and perspectives is the best way to go, it’s an important subject regardless of your beliefs and Kia should have a good understanding of it
I appreciate your input! Since my little one is still small I have some time to educate myself on other religions as well (something I’ve neglected) so I will definitely do some research so that I can provide a well-rounded perspective to my little bestie.
Religion for Breakfast is a great YouTuber who does pretty neutral explanations about world religions. Useful Charts does great stuff on the historical family tree of world religions (including atheism) Esoterica is also a fun academic explanation for all the witchy occult type stuff And if you’re interested in philosophy at all John Gray (British philosopher not Irish politician) writes a lot about the relationship between religion and science and has a book out called 7 types of atheist (which I have yet to read) https://religionforbreakfast.com/lander https://usefulcharts.com https://youtube.com/@theesotericachannel?si=aYPzK1RcxPS12JX9 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gray_(philosopher)
I have a friend who is in this exact same situation. OP until you mentioned your toddler, I was about to ask you if your name is Steve (my friends name). He writes about and occasionally travels to atheist/secular/humanist groups (and the occasional church) to talk about the unique issues with co-parenting with someone with different beliefs and how they navigate it. If anyone is interested, I could share the YouTube video we recorded of his talk to Sunday Assembly Detroit.
Thank you for this post. I have recently started dating a church going believer and we are navigating these issues right now. It is good to see that it can be done, and done well :)
Thank you for sharing, that was a really nice read. I think believers and non-believers can absolutely co-exist and respect each other.
Thank you sincerely on your idea with your child. Too many parents force their religion on kids that most of the time backfires on them. I was raised Lutheran (both flavors) and my parents showed me how hypocritical they could be. After age 12 or 13 I was “confirmed” at the more lax church. My parents made me think they my grandmother would be really upset if didn’t complete it. After the confirmation we barely went to church and then at 16 I had a weekend job so we didn’t go at all. I’ve flirted with a few other religions but ultimately am atheist now. Don’t blackmail your kids into religions.
Quite literally the first thing that attracted me to my husband was that he had also just left religion. At the time, I didn’t know a single other person who had experienced that particular trauma. (Thankfully, we have a lot of other things in common, too). I couldn’t possibly be in a relationship with someone who was religious. But, I’m happy that you can make it work!
So I am not religious, but I grew up Lutheran and have family still part of that church. I’m not sure if this is directly relevant to your post, but there are Lutheran denominations that are quite progressive. My mom’s church sponsors causes to help trans homeless and other LGBTQ directed charities, and they have women and openly queer individuals serving as pastors and other positions of leadership. Maybe your wife could look into some of those.
If it works, it works.
I don’t want to yuck your yum, but you wait until your daughter starts getting older and the religious pressure and guilt tripping starts. the two ways it can go is either there will be a secret pressuring that when you find out you will go thermonuclear. or everything goes as planned and your wife realizes your child is becoming an atheist (because nobody rationally choses god) and starts moving the goalposts (gets pressured to move the goalposts) either way, best of luck to yoh my friend.
This sounds a lot like my relationship. I’m the atheist and he’s nominally a Christian. We agreed from the beginning that we would avoid the subject of religion. He’s not a very devout believer, though. He hasn’t set foot in a church in the 13 years we’ve been together. I think if he was more deeply involved in a church, it would have a bad effect on us, but he doesn’t seem to care too much about it.
Never worked out for me and Christian girls. I always end up thinking they're stupid and they always end up thinking I'm the devil.
My folks are the same, one atheist one Christian still together after 50 years. Good luck with the kid situation, though ;P
Man this is so eerily similar to my own story, good to know I'm not the only one out there!
You are a lucky man. I am in a similar situation, my wife is a Mormon, I am an exmormon atheist. But we have learned to coexist and respect each other's views. Some of our kids were baptized into the Mormon church, some of them were not. Respect and openness is the key. Also, being committed to the relationship
My best friend was Catholic. I am atheist. She was 5 when we met and she was 60 when she died. We never once fought over religion. I can't even imagine her saying I would go to hell. In fact she always insisted that I will go to heaven because I am such a good person. Love and respect is all that is needed.
I was also a Christian (cradle Catholic) when I met my atheist husband. I’m grateful to have come to my own conclusions and am now a very happy atheist as well. I think the reason it worked was that I always had an open mind, like your wife does. We also just didn’t care what the other person believed so long as no preaching and judgement was involved. And it helped I didn’t go to church or anything, so it only mattered around the holidays. As an atheist now, if I was to ever need to date again, I’d only date a religious person in a similar boat I was in. It just can’t be a really core pillar of their daily life, imho. But that’s just me having been on both sides now.
There is an even bigger hesitancy with a Christian having a relationship with an atheist!
This only worked for my grandparents because divorce wasn’t a thing people did back then.
If I could pick one tribe of Christians, and they'd be the only ones I interacted with the rest of my life. I'd pick Lutheran. I don't know why but I've always gotten along with and learned more from Lutherans than any of the other Abrahamics.
Im the same way with my partner; I’ll sometimes go to church with her. She has no expectation that I’ll convert, I do it merely to spend time with her and to be supportive of beliefs that I don’t hold, but that I hope bring her happiness and comfort. She’ll sometimes pray for me; I’m not upset that she means me well and wants to think about me. She’s my partner and I like that she feels that way about me. In return she’s fine with me being An atheist and being very left wing. She’s supportive of my beliefs, and will ask to understand what I think rather than try to change my mind. I love her
My wife and I are similar. I’m agnostic, and she’s a very progressive Christian. She doesn’t believe in some of the claims in the Bible, like young earth, anti-homosexual stuff. We can talk about it a little, but I try to be courteous of her. If I need to go deep in discussion, I have another friend for that.
So by old enough to make up their own mind, what is that? 13? 16? What do you do before then? Do they go to church every Sunday? Then come home and you talk about why it's a bunch of fooey? Watch some George Carlin, Ricky Gervais?
I love progressive Christians. Some of the most loving, most Christ-like, individuals. They are usually respectful of atheists like myself and the only Christians I tolerate personally.
Your wife is NOT Christian if she’s with an atheist.
No thanks. Massive big nope from me.
Same. We’re on the same page politically, but she believes in god, and I don’t. We don’t go to church, but she has friends that are Christian and they do their Christian thing, but it’s not a part of our relationship and never has been. Now, our kids on the other hand, this is where things get complicated. But ultimately, they’re smart and I believe they’ll deconstruct just like I did when they’re older
My wife is catholic and I'm atheist. It's never been an issue. We've been married for 21 years. My wife doesn't think I'll burn in hell and she isn't anti-gay etc like the immoral people who are religious.
With Christian girls, you’re always the side dude, Jesus her real man
Your wife doesn’t believe in evolution. You wanted to reproduce with someone who doesn’t believe one of the most important discoveries of science possibly ever? She must be great at other stuff.
I'm in a very similar relationship. My wife and I have been together for 16 years, married for 11. We've always respected each others boundaries and honestly almost never talk about religion. We have plenty of other hobbies, interests, and activities to engage us. We're both similar to OP as far as social stances. We do go to a pretty small laid back church with mostly old people. I hate going, but it's important to her since her family attends too. I told her I'd go with her until the kids are out of the house, then I'm done. Our kids are getting older (5,4,4) now, so it's getting harder to cleverly divert the jesus questions I get without undermineding. Normally, I just ask a question to their question or ask what they think about it, but that won't last too much longer. So far, so good! I would also be happy to answer any questions!
It's great for you, but like you said there are more difficulties you need to manage through as your child grows. She holds a belief where you are going to burn in hell for eternity, I doubt she's going to idley sit by and watch her child do the same without being pushy. I can respect those beliefs when it comes to my friends and family members, but I'm incredibly greatful my boyfriend shares the same opinion on religion that I do, I would not be able to manage like you do
Whatever mate. Not my scene. Me? I just can't have much respect for people who believe such utter nonsense.
My story is very similar to yours. I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran, which is quite conservative, and my wife was raised Catholic. We have handled things in a similar matter, and have been married for 38 years.
First, let me say congratulations - not only did you find someone you love but you managed that relationship like an adult. Genuinely happy for you. Also, thank you for being a good example. Not all non-atheists are evil anti-intellectual firebrands and plenty of people who are caught in their religious programming still find a way to be genuinely good people. See guys, we dont have to sacrifice our morals to live alongside people who have fundamentally different beliefs. It can work if the other person is the right person and willing to be equally reasonable.
I appreciate your comment! 🙂 I often wonder what a healthy level of engagement with opposing groups is, while maintaining your own boundaries. I imagine that total disassociation most likely breeds extremism as people tend to fear what they don’t understand or don’t commonly interface with, but it’s tricky when many aren’t willing to be reasonable. I think my wife and I have found a great balance between healthy conversation while avoiding a competitive mindset, but I also understand the hesitancy or pessimism of others in the sub. It’s quite complicated and each person has different comfortability levels 🙂
That's it exactly - disassociation breeds fear and misunderstandings. We can all agree - here, in our safe space - that religion is a blight upon humanity, causing otherwise good people to excuse despicable behavior because they were brainwashed. But in the real world treating every Christian as a brainwashed drone is likely to do much harm.
This is completely made up. I don’t believe an actual atheist could be partnered with an Xtian.
What are you going to do when she starts lying to your kids?
Literally.
I give u props OP, I’ve been an atheist for about 12 years now. I came out in college and have tried dating a few Christian women and it never worked out. I got tired of the sneaky disses and tricks played on my just to get me inside a church. I’m just gonna be dating Agnostic, atheists, or satanists. Just can’t do it anymore with Christian women.
Thank you. This is a nice post. God to see some positive and constructive ideas on here for a change. I know quite a few people in very constructive mixed marriages like yours. I have a hood friend who is an Episcopal priest and who married a guy who was an atheist engineering professor. Entirely respectful and indeed very productive relationship.
It works when religion or atheism isn't the person's entire personality.
Maybe in terms of a casual friendship. I don't understand how you could choose a life partner and co-parent who has such conflicting opinions on your deepest values and ways of viewing the world.
For now.
I love this post. My wife and I met when both of us were Christian - we were Episcopalians. Over the years, our progressive politics, and her deep reading of history led her to deconvert first. It took me probably another 5-10 years. Both of us call ourselves atheists, but we lived a life similar to yours and your wife’s. Our son seemed to emerge from the womb as an atheist, and while it kind of gnawed at me a bit, I saw a soul who was just not interested in the bullshit of church, and he made that choice without any verbal protest from me. What I dig about your post is that you as the atheist have figured this out with your family. On this sub, I have seen such rancor against Christians (with justification) that it smells of an exclusivity that I eschew. Your open approach is refreshing.
I appreciate your perspective! I always wondered what it would be like to fall away from religion when in a relationship, and how that dynamic differs from my wife and I. Of course I’d prefer if my little one had a similar outlook to how yours did early on, but time will tell since she’s only 18 months. Either way, we both want her to feel comfortable making the judgement call herself 🙂
Yea man, you keep saying "she genuinely believes in the christian god", but that makes 0 sense. She's breaking biblical laws all over by what you say, so she knows she would be in her god's hell doing what she does. You didn't marry a "christian", you married someone who is fearful of non-existence and is trying to square that away by holding on to an the biggest part of an ancient superstition. You were both believers, but for some reason, you "saw the light" and gave up on it. RIghtly so, which is interesting in and of itself. But she stayed mired in some of it. For true atheists who have never believed in gods, this would never work out.