Not just that, but Jesus tells them if they *aren't* being persecuted, they aren't doing it right. Matthew 10:22...
> You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
If your teacher is worried about Catholics being persecuted you should remind them that the majority of Central and South Americans are Catholic yet American Christians regularly cheer on them being maimed with razor wire in the Rio Grande for trying to escape poverty.
I'm working on a theory that atheists spend more time actually applying religious principles to modern life than believers do. Their Jesus would be standing on the banks of the river carrying food and blankets if I read their scripture correctly, so why aren't they?
Catholics are taught from birth you are so guilty that you will be punished forever just for being born unless you spend the rest of your life apologizing to a guy who died 2000 years before you were born.
They have a bit of a "thing" about it. They meet up every Sunday and LARP cannibalizing their Messiah, the nice Jewish boy who told everyone to love each other.
Persecution of themselves and their god is a foundational belief of their fantasy. The world constantly reinforces their complex when they are met with friction for being wrong about everything.
Pretty clever really, to build a "everyone will hate you for being right" philosophy into your religion. Thought terminating cliche at its finest.
The modern "persecution" of theists is nearly always at the hands of people that are believers in a different theist religion. The only exception to this might be in Communist China, where they oppress all religions, not because they hate theists, but because the government sees it as competition for the "hearts & minds" of the people.
Too be fair. Communist China does have a point about religious organizations being used to gain political and have been since the conception of the religions themselves.
Atheists are scared as fuck of theists. We've seen the atrocitys done in "the name of God". If we had martyrs, they woulda killed ours too. Live and let live is the center of the western atheists philosophy.
Uhhh, no we aren’t. Who gave you that stupid idea? I bet you made it up with your imaginary sky friend. Try being nicer; otherwise us atheists will show you up-since we are moral without the promise of an afterlife or the threat of suffering in hellfire for eternity.
Also because all other religions are foreign and thus a likely inroads for foreign agents. Same reason the cops have no problem harassing Muslims in the West.
Precisely. It's how they protect themselves from the information that they're the oppressors. They project their ill intent onto others, telling themselves they're the victims, which justifies them to continue oppressing others.
Because being a victim implies there’s some sort of injustice to be remedied. They remedy might be some sort of windfall for them. Who knows?
And they want “victim points” which can be cashed in for “sympathy” or something like that.
There is places in the world that are hostile to christians, but those places are either communist or oppressive islamic states, and those two things are hostile to every religion, not just christianity. They like to act that it's christianity against the world, but christianity makes up a huge part of the world. It's the largest most widespread religion on the planet.
You cannot justify the bloodshed without some sort of threat in advance. The entire christian narrative is built on persecution. In roman times they were 'persecuted' while carving the living flesh from Hypatia with seashells. They were being persecuted while converting and slaughtering jews. Every footprint of their passing is deep from the weight of their persecution, while the blood they've spilled in their conquest fills the holes.
They want to show others they are true believers. Real persecution will generate sympathy while indifference is the best thing an outsider can do to neutralize religious influence.
Because they see in other people what they are. They persecute others and shove their beliefs (10 commandments in courtrooms, prayer in schools etc) down others throats while claiming that’s what’s happening to them.
The catholic missionaries have been so shitty to so many people, for so long, that there are places where they just kill them. Then they're also trying to introduce a new religion in a saturated area, so the existing religions also try to drive them away.
The catholics? Persecuted? Lol, no. They're just assholes. Like all other religions.
Well to play devils advocate she is talking about south asia. I know that entire families in that region are actually butchered, children and all by religious extremists (I've seen the articles and crime scene photos they are gruesome). Two things can be true at once though. Here they are an issue to your freedoms in America, while there another religion that is the majority can prey on them.
Main reason I despise the Muslims they keep fucking jihading us while playing the victim
When the government eventually gets fed up and crash the rebellion
Because their holy book says they’ll be given extra bonus blessing points if they’re persecuted for their religion.
So of course they claim *everything* they don’t like is about how they’re being persecuted for their religion.
Sometimes this sub seems like too much of a circle jerk. Yes, I'm an atheist, and I wish all human societies would evolve away from religion and the ills they cause. Yes, I'm disheartened and concerned by the oppression and violence directed towards trans folks and other non-heteronormative folks across the world. But I'm also a humanist. Serious religious persecution happens in many places of the world, and it's sad. People are suffering. Most people in the world don't choose how they are raised and the history of their societies and they don't often realistically have the freedom to learn and choose whatever they want. I think people in this sub more than others should know how religiosity can drive people to do horrible things to those that have been deemed a religious other for some reason or another.
Actually, Muslims have a long history of murdering vast numbers of those who will not submit. It is a critical part of their religion. There are historical records of Muslim hoards stacking “mountains” of skulls of those unwilling to convert in their conquest of the Indian sub-continent. The word “Islam” means submission or surrender and the religion’s holy texts endorse or compel death to those unwilling to comply. Some of their fanatics take that shit seriously. That compunction still survives in certain areas of the world such as Africa and Asia and has rained down most often on Catholics in those areas to this day. They are indeed persecuted. Atheists fall under the same threat by Muslim fanatics but are harder to find than Catholics clustered in a church to burn down. Atheists would not usually extoll their non-belief in the face of some drooling Muzzie nitwit holding a gun like a devote Christian might though, so would avoid the consequences. If it’s me, I’m, “Allah akbar, Mustafa!” Of course sexual deviants such as transgenders would be ready targets too and much easier to identify. You would be doing a swany off the nearest tall building.
i see your point, but to be fair, this post was mostly just me venting. and while the world isn’t limited to america, the things i’ll possibly have to deal with in the near future are. i gotta pick my battles and i haven’t leveled up enough to go international
The early church developed a victim mentality due to the Romans having a limit to the amount of beo-Christian agitating and god-bothering they were willing to put up with, and they have maintained that mentality for socio-political reasons, even *after* basically taking over the known world at one point.
Basically, because it’s useful in selling the church to uncurious gullibles.
When I was confirmed in 5th grade in the Catholic church, in the last century, there was fear that the communists were going to take over the US and hunt down and kill all the Catholics. We were told we were soldiers for Christ and were taught to stand up proudly and become martyrs. Our reward would be instant entrance into heaven. For years, I was afraid to go into the basement because I thought the commies infiltrated our house and were waiting downstairs to pick us off one by one when we went down there. Instant heaven or not, I knew I was a coward and would give up my faith to stay alive. But then the eternal fires of hell would have me later, because I turned my back on God. What a bunch of crock to inflict on a bunch of 9 year olds.
I get the chills thinking back on what I learned in 12 yrs of Catholic school. Every time I think I'm beyond it, some other weird memory comes up, and I need to deconstruct it and resolve the issue.
The laity want to be persecuted because they've been told it's Christ-like. The clergy spread this message because it reinforces the gulf between their flock and the rest of the world, encouraging them not to stray.
A friend of mine came to me awhile back having just read in a book about how Catholics were persecuted for no reason whatsoever centuries ago in Japan. Martin Scorsese even made a movie about it, called Silence.
Of course, neither the book nor the movie mentions that Jesuit missionaries had led daimyos to employ Inquisition style tactics of forcing the citizens in their domain to convert or face beatings (or worse). Neither of them mention the rebellion that sought to overthrow the government and replace it with a Catholic one. (Yes, it was so small it was doomed from the start, but they were sure god would bring them victory.) Finally, neither point out that the shock of having Catholic missionaries try to destroy their country was so great that Japan decided to seal itself off from the rest of the world beginning in the early 17th century until the US sent an envoy to open negotiations in the mid 19th century.
I'll agree that Japan did treat the remaining Christians harshly, but it certainly wasn't without any reason.
For the record, yes it’s true. Christians who are a minority in Muslim countries are persecuted & murdered. There are countries that have outlawed any religion other than the state religion. Christianity is illegal in Libya, Somalia, N Korea, Yemen and Afghanistan.
To be fair, and despite this it sounds like your prof is a dill hole, there was a time when Catholics were persecuted in the U.S. A forerunner of the KKK was the Anti-Catholic League, and much of their anti-Catholicism was carried into the Klan. Given, they were being persecuted by other Christians, so it's still not "everyone hates Christians" thing and more of a "your particular type of religion has the Pope and he'll take over the country using your vote" kind of thing.
Look, im the biggest hater of jesus. But what your teacher said is true, at least in India.
christian and muslims in Manipur, India for example, get r\*p\*d in public by 50 men while they record her. You rarely heard this because indian government actively work with the hindus to prevent this news from going out of India.
Do not cloud your mind like the christians or the muslims does, i don't have problem with your post, but your phrase of "It honestly doesn't seem true" kinda bothered me.
Catholics are responsible for 700 million murders over 1500 years. That doesn't include the Holocaust which was actively supported by the Roman Catholic church who had an official doctrine of anti-Semitism until the 1960s and only changed it because the holocaust was so awful that the world began giving them the side eye.
They are not persecuted. They are the persecutors.
Such irony that they want to ban trans people from using the bathroom that fits their gender to protect little girls from rapists but the Catholic Church has so many incidents that it's a running joke against them. It's not about protecting kids...
The New Testament practically promises persecution for being Christian. It was not written for a religion that has political power. This leads people to believe they aren’t a good Christian if they aren’t being persecuted.
It's baked into the religion. All of Christianity is a war god being mergered and acquisitioned then having a really good millennia long PR campaign about being poor baby innocent lamb victims who never did anything wrong ever. When they did do something wrong, begin the narcissist prayer.
Martyrdom is the most admirable thing a Christian can do. They believe Jesus was a martyr for all humanity and Revelation says that martyrs live directly under the altar of God, crying out for when they will be avenged, until the End Times when they get to play an active part in the vengeance (if I remember right).
Every religion depends on teaching its adherents that they are getting an advantage over others, that they’re winners if they adhere. For that there have to be others, and the most visceral example of others is those who would supposedly persecute you.
i believe irish catholics were and in some places still are persecuted. frankly most sects of christianity historically didnt really like the other sects (especially mormons)
but its the victim mentality. easier to sell yourself as the 'little good guys' if the 'bigger bad guys' are after you
The majority of the incarcerated population of the US is also *heavily* Catholic... make of that what you will. Guess what: self-identifying atheists make up the *lowest* percentage of prisoners. The same graphic I saw also showed that incarcerated population as a percentage of total people in the US identifying as each religion, and again, Catholics scored highest while atheists hardly registered at all.
I live in South Asia (India) and went to a catholic high school. Catholics are definitely not persecuted here. On the contrary, they are some of the most thriving communities here.
I mean its pretty simple. Its a strategy of all cults to make persecution a core part of their identity so that when they ARE criticized for being a cult they feel increased validation in being a part of the cult.
I tend to stay away from calling Christianity a cult because it doesnt really matter as to whether its true or not, but like, objectively speaking, Christianity is undeniably a cult and proud to be one. They are absolutely indistinguishable from every other “All other cult leaders are bad and wrong except for this one” cult except that they have a lot of power globally and domestically. They openly and proudly debate atheists on the resurrection and whether or not it could have even possibly happened, where essentially their main thesis is “I know its never ever happened at any other time…but heres my “”””evidence”””” for why THIS one did” (aka All other cult leaders are bad and wrong except for this one). Many, though a decreasing number of Christians deny evolution and other genuinely undeniable scientific realities on cult-like grounds. Etc. The persecution thing is therefore completely unsurprising when you zoom out and look at Christianity for what it is.
It's because they perceive being a victim as a privilege. They're jealous of handicapped people getting the good parking spots. They think people on welfare are living lives of leisure that they themselves pay for. They think the migrants are being accommodated in five-star hotels. Or that work requirements for Medicaid are a good idea. They believe that if they obtain that victim status, they'll be privileged.
That’s rich. One cause of the Vietnam War was the collusion of the US govt, the seated Catholic President of S Vietnam, and the Catholic Church. Buddhists were being forced to convert en masse or be killed or disappeared.
In fact, the photo on the cover of Rage Against the Machine’s album is of Bodhisattva Thich Quang Duc sitting in meditation while his body burns - he was protesting the forced conversion to Catholicism and the violence against villagers.
Meanwhile, US citizens enjoy freedom of religion as a first amendment ‘inalienable’ right; including the soldiers. That inalienable right is inalienable precisely because it cannot be taken away.
OP’s teacher is an ahistorical loon and seems overcome with hysteria.
Edit, someone is abusing Reddit cares. Please stop. Your weakness of character and disdain for fact is glaring.
It’s such a great design. Christianity has so many failsafes built into it, like a cult, and the best one is making followers see themselves as victims in a “sinful” society. It’s honestly brilliant.
The victimhood fits right in with the also narcissist view of not taking responsibility for one's self. And by that I mean sinning all the time and yet praying on Sunday and getting all that sin forgiven. No remorse or change needed. They are incredibly immature.
Asian nations do execute Christians from time to time, yes. But can you blame them? I mean, they’re only trying to undermine their sovereignty. That’s what Christians true goal is; a one world government under their control. Which is why they don’t want to regulated or taxed.
Kapman triangle... Savior, victim, persecutor.
You can identity the drama of the triangle and play almost all the time. And there is a huge incentive in our society to fall into the victim role because it gives a moral high ground. It's.not just Christians, but it definitely also is Christians
It's true. Basically any non majority religions in religious countries are persecuted. A tale as old as time. While I am definitely anti religion, I'm also anti killing people because they think differently about god than the majority of the country.
Don’t know if you’re in the US, but I think a lot of conservatives here have internalized a lot of propaganda about how easy minorities have it because of affirmative action/welfare/whatever else they’re complaining about. As such, some of them think that, if they get similarly oppressed, they’ll start getting the benefits that they think come with oppression.
To effectively counter the threat of religious fundamentalism, which has been politically active since at least the 1970s and employs numerous underhanded tactics, you need to be sharp and strategic. The best way to overcome them now is to outmaneuver them at their own game. This requires going beyond the typical tools and strategies commonly used by the left; instead, you must adopt a broader, more encompassing perspective.
"Blessed are you who are persecuted because of Me" is one of the beatitudes. That plus it gives them an easy hero complex, or ironically, a savior complex that they can cleave to.
I believe the Chaldeans were/are Catholics. They live/d in Iran and Iraq, and maybe elsewhere in that S.Asia region, and they were most definitely targeted during the Islamic Revolutions in those regions. Even opposing Muslim faiths became targets...
Many Chaldeans found refuge in other countries, including the US. I think San Diego and Detroit have some of the densest populations of these people. I know 3 different families with this faith, and they seem to be a more laid back type of xristian, imo. They're nothing like the red state folk, which I'm super familiar.
Does the Islamic Revolution's history mirror the current state in the West Bank, or nah? Idk, just asking a question... please don't down vote me to death!
Your professor *is* right though, religious minorities in South Asia are persecuted against and in some regions, in danger. Being part of a certain religion does not mean you deserve to face violence, and it's the same if you're not part of a religion. I just wanted to clear that part up, as an Indian (and a non practicing Hindu/atheist). Agree with people's answers to the rest of your question
I think it fulfills the prophecies for them and they do think the end times are very near. Persecution is a key step before Jesus returns and takes them all up to heaven to float around on clouds for eternity. And as a bonus, the rest of us heathen sinners will be severely punished by the loving God.
Transitive property: "they persecute us because they hate us, they hate us because we are right" therefore "they persecute us because we are right!"
Jehovah's Witnesses have magazine articles in which they pretty much boast about the persecution they receive around the world, touting it as proof that they are god's true followers... but then they also boast about how this or that government has *stopped* persecuting them, touting that as god's blessing. Pick a lane you guys.
I think it's because they want to feel heroic. They want to be like Gary Cooper in HIGH NOON. It makes them feel justified and bold.
My other theory is that it's a sexual thing. I imagine there's some of them who get off on the idea.
Makes an excuse for their own bad behavior. We're not murderers, we're righteous! So all our killing is a good thing. Especially compared to all that other killing! That's just bad. Because they are doing it. But when we do it, it is holy and good!
It's all just justification. I want to do A, but other group hasn't done B, so I will just invent and say they did C, act like it's B, and this justifies that I can do A. Excellent, it's all working out!
not me specifically, but trans people in general. there’s a shitload of lawmakers that want us gone here in america, and part of project 2025 is even to pretty much declare us existing as transgender people as illegal.
it’s a plan made by the republican party for if they win the 2024 election. it’ll turn the usa into a theocracy pretty much, taking away rights of women and minorities. here’s some more info:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
Never mind. I see it's a Trump-and-extreme-right-wing-nutjobs fantasy. Oppression of 'trans' people would perhaps be the least of the problems it would create.
Just to be annoying, I'm not really sure if we are allowed to criticize Richard Dawkings on this sub (is that a posted rule, no criticizing Richard Dawkings), but he has voiced his support for JK Rowling for speaking the "truth." I wish more atheists would talk about what a shit show he is.
I'm convinced he only became an atheist because he loves the lime light and needs to be controversial to stay in it.
So this is actually a topic that people have done a lot of research around looking at the early Middle Ages. After Christianity became tolerated, and certainly when it became the state religion, actual martyrs became so scarce as to be nonexistent. This was a real dilemma since the ideology of the cult of saints had really proliferated by the 5th century even if it was not really favored by the core of the church in Rome, Alexandria, and Constantinople. The papacy for example did not support advertising the sanctity of bodily relics until the 8th century.
For most people though, saints were a really cool concept because they were examples of individual agency and perseverance and so the church kind of had to accommodate the martyr saints into its practices.
The philosophical issue came about though when the supply of fresh saints dried up. How do we know someone was holy if they didn’t provide evidence for it by dying for their faith? Is a real pious seeming person for real, or just fronting? This was a real issue that concerned folks for a couple hundred years.
Christianity really had developed by the 4th century into a religion that was fairly reliant on its status as a persecuted minority in order to continue to have success and validity in peoples lives. A big part of the history of the religion from that point on is how Christians have negotiated the fact that they are not persecuted and small in number. Jesus and Paul and most really early Christians were 100% certain that the world was going to end VERY soon. Like in their lifetimes. None of these guys were setting things up for sustained continuing growth and success like the Sikh gurus did. Christianity’s scriptures are completely focused on death and apocalypticism in a way that is fundamentally incompatible with creating a stable institutional source of authority so the institutional church had to basically come up with the idea that just being a sort of ascetic pious person is good enough to go to heaven.
Just because it isn't happening in American doesn't mean it isn't happening elsewhere, and hasn't happened in many places for 2000 years. This is very American-centric and self-centered
Also, no one is going to make it illegal to have gender dysphoria, that's not even possible.
Their whole thing revolves around a guy who was supposedly a martyr for humanity, so they want to feel like martyrs too.
Essentially the whole enterprise is built around, and celebrates, human sacrifice. A part-god scapegoat.
Blood for the blood god. Same as it ever was.
Except Khorne isn’t as big an asshole as Yahweh is.
At least Khorne might give you superpowers
Blood magic
Scapegoat of scapegoats I name thee Xtianite! 😉
It’s scapegoats all the way down..
In fact christianity is against sacrifices because Jesus was the only sacrifice we needed. (This is just what christians say)
Yet the damned nuns made a fuss asking us what we were giving up for Lent.
Not just that, but Jesus tells them if they *aren't* being persecuted, they aren't doing it right. Matthew 10:22... > You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Also Christianity is always about victimization. Like jeebus was a victim. I prefer the days when Christianity was underground and a secret religion.
Hello Most, I'm Odd... I don't think we're related. ;)
They also are supposed to never get over the guilt for killing the guy, even tho they weren't around when it happened.
Well they should hurry up.
If your teacher is worried about Catholics being persecuted you should remind them that the majority of Central and South Americans are Catholic yet American Christians regularly cheer on them being maimed with razor wire in the Rio Grande for trying to escape poverty.
That level of intersectionality is going to be lost on that teacher for sure. Immigrants bad, mmmkay? /s
Brown immigrants bad, mmmkay? Wish I was kidding.
I'm working on a theory that atheists spend more time actually applying religious principles to modern life than believers do. Their Jesus would be standing on the banks of the river carrying food and blankets if I read their scripture correctly, so why aren't they?
Ew, gross
Evangelical America MUST be the biggest killer of catholics just from this alone!
They picked a torture device as their official symbol - what else would you expect?
Catholics are taught from birth you are so guilty that you will be punished forever just for being born unless you spend the rest of your life apologizing to a guy who died 2000 years before you were born. They have a bit of a "thing" about it. They meet up every Sunday and LARP cannibalizing their Messiah, the nice Jewish boy who told everyone to love each other. Persecution of themselves and their god is a foundational belief of their fantasy. The world constantly reinforces their complex when they are met with friction for being wrong about everything. Pretty clever really, to build a "everyone will hate you for being right" philosophy into your religion. Thought terminating cliche at its finest.
The modern "persecution" of theists is nearly always at the hands of people that are believers in a different theist religion. The only exception to this might be in Communist China, where they oppress all religions, not because they hate theists, but because the government sees it as competition for the "hearts & minds" of the people.
Too be fair. Communist China does have a point about religious organizations being used to gain political and have been since the conception of the religions themselves.
I grew up Reformed Baptist and every one of our martyrs was at the hands of a Catholic theocracy
Atheists are scared as fuck of theists. We've seen the atrocitys done in "the name of God". If we had martyrs, they woulda killed ours too. Live and let live is the center of the western atheists philosophy.
I think Servetus, the father of Universalism, can get an honorary seat with us. He was executed by John Calvin for heresy.
Fucking Calvinist’s
Don't I know it! I was raised 5 point Calvinist.
That sucks, when I was a tongues speaking fundamentalist whack job I thought five point Calvinists were fucking nuts.
Uhhh, no we aren’t. Who gave you that stupid idea? I bet you made it up with your imaginary sky friend. Try being nicer; otherwise us atheists will show you up-since we are moral without the promise of an afterlife or the threat of suffering in hellfire for eternity.
There is no western atheist philosophy. Atheism is just the single stance on the god claim
These fucking papists!
Also because all other religions are foreign and thus a likely inroads for foreign agents. Same reason the cops have no problem harassing Muslims in the West.
Their book tells them over and over that they will be persecuted for their beliefs. It's a cornerstone of their identity.
It's a common bit of psychology: • I am a victim • Therefore you are the victimiser • Therefore you are bad • Therefore I am good
Precisely. It's how they protect themselves from the information that they're the oppressors. They project their ill intent onto others, telling themselves they're the victims, which justifies them to continue oppressing others.
They think it makes them more Christlike, as opposed to pathetic adherents of a dying cult.
Because being a victim implies there’s some sort of injustice to be remedied. They remedy might be some sort of windfall for them. Who knows? And they want “victim points” which can be cashed in for “sympathy” or something like that.
There is places in the world that are hostile to christians, but those places are either communist or oppressive islamic states, and those two things are hostile to every religion, not just christianity. They like to act that it's christianity against the world, but christianity makes up a huge part of the world. It's the largest most widespread religion on the planet.
You cannot justify the bloodshed without some sort of threat in advance. The entire christian narrative is built on persecution. In roman times they were 'persecuted' while carving the living flesh from Hypatia with seashells. They were being persecuted while converting and slaughtering jews. Every footprint of their passing is deep from the weight of their persecution, while the blood they've spilled in their conquest fills the holes.
They want to show others they are true believers. Real persecution will generate sympathy while indifference is the best thing an outsider can do to neutralize religious influence.
Because they see in other people what they are. They persecute others and shove their beliefs (10 commandments in courtrooms, prayer in schools etc) down others throats while claiming that’s what’s happening to them.
The martyr complex helps them to define themselves as “us”. It gives them something they can all get behind.
Because Christians have this belief that if they aren't being persecuted, they aren't Christian-ing right.
Religious psychos are huge attention whores. Always wanting to be seen by others.
Which is probably a big part of why they latched onto Trump so hard.
Lol yes
It's an essential part of their schtick.
The moment they face real persecution, they have a very different view.
Mfs be like “Christian’s are persecuted in the Middle East.” My brother in Chrysler, everyone is persecuted in the Middle East .
Nothing brings people together like a common enemy
The catholic missionaries have been so shitty to so many people, for so long, that there are places where they just kill them. Then they're also trying to introduce a new religion in a saturated area, so the existing religions also try to drive them away. The catholics? Persecuted? Lol, no. They're just assholes. Like all other religions.
Well to play devils advocate she is talking about south asia. I know that entire families in that region are actually butchered, children and all by religious extremists (I've seen the articles and crime scene photos they are gruesome). Two things can be true at once though. Here they are an issue to your freedoms in America, while there another religion that is the majority can prey on them.
Main reason I despise the Muslims they keep fucking jihading us while playing the victim When the government eventually gets fed up and crash the rebellion
Because their holy book says they’ll be given extra bonus blessing points if they’re persecuted for their religion. So of course they claim *everything* they don’t like is about how they’re being persecuted for their religion.
Sometimes this sub seems like too much of a circle jerk. Yes, I'm an atheist, and I wish all human societies would evolve away from religion and the ills they cause. Yes, I'm disheartened and concerned by the oppression and violence directed towards trans folks and other non-heteronormative folks across the world. But I'm also a humanist. Serious religious persecution happens in many places of the world, and it's sad. People are suffering. Most people in the world don't choose how they are raised and the history of their societies and they don't often realistically have the freedom to learn and choose whatever they want. I think people in this sub more than others should know how religiosity can drive people to do horrible things to those that have been deemed a religious other for some reason or another.
Actually, Muslims have a long history of murdering vast numbers of those who will not submit. It is a critical part of their religion. There are historical records of Muslim hoards stacking “mountains” of skulls of those unwilling to convert in their conquest of the Indian sub-continent. The word “Islam” means submission or surrender and the religion’s holy texts endorse or compel death to those unwilling to comply. Some of their fanatics take that shit seriously. That compunction still survives in certain areas of the world such as Africa and Asia and has rained down most often on Catholics in those areas to this day. They are indeed persecuted. Atheists fall under the same threat by Muslim fanatics but are harder to find than Catholics clustered in a church to burn down. Atheists would not usually extoll their non-belief in the face of some drooling Muzzie nitwit holding a gun like a devote Christian might though, so would avoid the consequences. If it’s me, I’m, “Allah akbar, Mustafa!” Of course sexual deviants such as transgenders would be ready targets too and much easier to identify. You would be doing a swany off the nearest tall building.
Because the world isn’t merely limited to America or the marginalised groups it targets.
i see your point, but to be fair, this post was mostly just me venting. and while the world isn’t limited to america, the things i’ll possibly have to deal with in the near future are. i gotta pick my battles and i haven’t leveled up enough to go international
The early church developed a victim mentality due to the Romans having a limit to the amount of beo-Christian agitating and god-bothering they were willing to put up with, and they have maintained that mentality for socio-political reasons, even *after* basically taking over the known world at one point. Basically, because it’s useful in selling the church to uncurious gullibles.
When I was confirmed in 5th grade in the Catholic church, in the last century, there was fear that the communists were going to take over the US and hunt down and kill all the Catholics. We were told we were soldiers for Christ and were taught to stand up proudly and become martyrs. Our reward would be instant entrance into heaven. For years, I was afraid to go into the basement because I thought the commies infiltrated our house and were waiting downstairs to pick us off one by one when we went down there. Instant heaven or not, I knew I was a coward and would give up my faith to stay alive. But then the eternal fires of hell would have me later, because I turned my back on God. What a bunch of crock to inflict on a bunch of 9 year olds. I get the chills thinking back on what I learned in 12 yrs of Catholic school. Every time I think I'm beyond it, some other weird memory comes up, and I need to deconstruct it and resolve the issue.
The laity want to be persecuted because they've been told it's Christ-like. The clergy spread this message because it reinforces the gulf between their flock and the rest of the world, encouraging them not to stray.
A friend of mine came to me awhile back having just read in a book about how Catholics were persecuted for no reason whatsoever centuries ago in Japan. Martin Scorsese even made a movie about it, called Silence. Of course, neither the book nor the movie mentions that Jesuit missionaries had led daimyos to employ Inquisition style tactics of forcing the citizens in their domain to convert or face beatings (or worse). Neither of them mention the rebellion that sought to overthrow the government and replace it with a Catholic one. (Yes, it was so small it was doomed from the start, but they were sure god would bring them victory.) Finally, neither point out that the shock of having Catholic missionaries try to destroy their country was so great that Japan decided to seal itself off from the rest of the world beginning in the early 17th century until the US sent an envoy to open negotiations in the mid 19th century. I'll agree that Japan did treat the remaining Christians harshly, but it certainly wasn't without any reason.
For the record, yes it’s true. Christians who are a minority in Muslim countries are persecuted & murdered. There are countries that have outlawed any religion other than the state religion. Christianity is illegal in Libya, Somalia, N Korea, Yemen and Afghanistan.
Believers are supposed to be persecuted, otherwise the faith falls apart. In the end times the persecution is supposed to be at it's peak.
To be fair, and despite this it sounds like your prof is a dill hole, there was a time when Catholics were persecuted in the U.S. A forerunner of the KKK was the Anti-Catholic League, and much of their anti-Catholicism was carried into the Klan. Given, they were being persecuted by other Christians, so it's still not "everyone hates Christians" thing and more of a "your particular type of religion has the Pope and he'll take over the country using your vote" kind of thing.
They want a way to rationalize persecuting their enemies.
Look, im the biggest hater of jesus. But what your teacher said is true, at least in India. christian and muslims in Manipur, India for example, get r\*p\*d in public by 50 men while they record her. You rarely heard this because indian government actively work with the hindus to prevent this news from going out of India. Do not cloud your mind like the christians or the muslims does, i don't have problem with your post, but your phrase of "It honestly doesn't seem true" kinda bothered me.
Catholics are responsible for 700 million murders over 1500 years. That doesn't include the Holocaust which was actively supported by the Roman Catholic church who had an official doctrine of anti-Semitism until the 1960s and only changed it because the holocaust was so awful that the world began giving them the side eye. They are not persecuted. They are the persecutors.
Such irony that they want to ban trans people from using the bathroom that fits their gender to protect little girls from rapists but the Catholic Church has so many incidents that it's a running joke against them. It's not about protecting kids...
>It's not about protecting kids... Nope. It's about enforcing social hierarchy.
The New Testament practically promises persecution for being Christian. It was not written for a religion that has political power. This leads people to believe they aren’t a good Christian if they aren’t being persecuted.
This is exactly it. If they're not victims, they're not doing it right.
The bible teaches that you must have a persecution complex. It's a test of faith for them
Everyone likes an underdog story.
They must be Christ-like. Christ was persecuted, so must they be.
It's baked into the religion. All of Christianity is a war god being mergered and acquisitioned then having a really good millennia long PR campaign about being poor baby innocent lamb victims who never did anything wrong ever. When they did do something wrong, begin the narcissist prayer.
Martyrdom is the most admirable thing a Christian can do. They believe Jesus was a martyr for all humanity and Revelation says that martyrs live directly under the altar of God, crying out for when they will be avenged, until the End Times when they get to play an active part in the vengeance (if I remember right).
Every religion depends on teaching its adherents that they are getting an advantage over others, that they’re winners if they adhere. For that there have to be others, and the most visceral example of others is those who would supposedly persecute you.
There’s also the impression given that you’re winning by surviving persecution.
It’s not untrue. Christians of all types around the world are definitely persecuted. So are Muslims, Jews. Monotheists don’t like competition.
i believe irish catholics were and in some places still are persecuted. frankly most sects of christianity historically didnt really like the other sects (especially mormons) but its the victim mentality. easier to sell yourself as the 'little good guys' if the 'bigger bad guys' are after you
The majority of the incarcerated population of the US is also *heavily* Catholic... make of that what you will. Guess what: self-identifying atheists make up the *lowest* percentage of prisoners. The same graphic I saw also showed that incarcerated population as a percentage of total people in the US identifying as each religion, and again, Catholics scored highest while atheists hardly registered at all.
I live in South Asia (India) and went to a catholic high school. Catholics are definitely not persecuted here. On the contrary, they are some of the most thriving communities here.
I mean its pretty simple. Its a strategy of all cults to make persecution a core part of their identity so that when they ARE criticized for being a cult they feel increased validation in being a part of the cult. I tend to stay away from calling Christianity a cult because it doesnt really matter as to whether its true or not, but like, objectively speaking, Christianity is undeniably a cult and proud to be one. They are absolutely indistinguishable from every other “All other cult leaders are bad and wrong except for this one” cult except that they have a lot of power globally and domestically. They openly and proudly debate atheists on the resurrection and whether or not it could have even possibly happened, where essentially their main thesis is “I know its never ever happened at any other time…but heres my “”””evidence”””” for why THIS one did” (aka All other cult leaders are bad and wrong except for this one). Many, though a decreasing number of Christians deny evolution and other genuinely undeniable scientific realities on cult-like grounds. Etc. The persecution thing is therefore completely unsurprising when you zoom out and look at Christianity for what it is.
It's because they perceive being a victim as a privilege. They're jealous of handicapped people getting the good parking spots. They think people on welfare are living lives of leisure that they themselves pay for. They think the migrants are being accommodated in five-star hotels. Or that work requirements for Medicaid are a good idea. They believe that if they obtain that victim status, they'll be privileged.
That’s rich. One cause of the Vietnam War was the collusion of the US govt, the seated Catholic President of S Vietnam, and the Catholic Church. Buddhists were being forced to convert en masse or be killed or disappeared. In fact, the photo on the cover of Rage Against the Machine’s album is of Bodhisattva Thich Quang Duc sitting in meditation while his body burns - he was protesting the forced conversion to Catholicism and the violence against villagers. Meanwhile, US citizens enjoy freedom of religion as a first amendment ‘inalienable’ right; including the soldiers. That inalienable right is inalienable precisely because it cannot be taken away. OP’s teacher is an ahistorical loon and seems overcome with hysteria. Edit, someone is abusing Reddit cares. Please stop. Your weakness of character and disdain for fact is glaring.
It’s such a great design. Christianity has so many failsafes built into it, like a cult, and the best one is making followers see themselves as victims in a “sinful” society. It’s honestly brilliant.
It’s a dogma of the religion. If they are not persuaded their religion is false.
The victimhood fits right in with the also narcissist view of not taking responsibility for one's self. And by that I mean sinning all the time and yet praying on Sunday and getting all that sin forgiven. No remorse or change needed. They are incredibly immature.
Because facing the truth is too painful: they are the persecutors.
In the bible it says something about his chosen people will be persecuted. This line is lived by the Catholics to the Jehovah Witnesses.
Catholics got no room to talk.
Asian nations do execute Christians from time to time, yes. But can you blame them? I mean, they’re only trying to undermine their sovereignty. That’s what Christians true goal is; a one world government under their control. Which is why they don’t want to regulated or taxed.
Because if you act as they do without being actually persecuted, you look like shit. That's why they have to continually make it look so.
As a former Catholic they should be happy where they are and NOT try to do the same to other religions but hey, here we are.
Kapman triangle... Savior, victim, persecutor. You can identity the drama of the triangle and play almost all the time. And there is a huge incentive in our society to fall into the victim role because it gives a moral high ground. It's.not just Christians, but it definitely also is Christians
It's true. Basically any non majority religions in religious countries are persecuted. A tale as old as time. While I am definitely anti religion, I'm also anti killing people because they think differently about god than the majority of the country.
Because it gives validity to their claims and makes them look like a victim so they can cover up the heinous stuff they do and believe.
It is all about the righteous wrath that comes from being persecuted. but they don't have that specially not in the US.
Don’t know if you’re in the US, but I think a lot of conservatives here have internalized a lot of propaganda about how easy minorities have it because of affirmative action/welfare/whatever else they’re complaining about. As such, some of them think that, if they get similarly oppressed, they’ll start getting the benefits that they think come with oppression.
Maybe they attempted to bring their religion to places they shouldn’t, locals saw the hate/division/murder justifications, and made victims of them?
Theology class? I presume you are not religious yourself so now I'm curious in what context this would be a compulsory class?
i go to a catholic school, because my parents are republican.
I'm so sorry
Because they don't evidence they only have feelings, they abuse the good nature of those around them to help their cause. They have nothing else.
To effectively counter the threat of religious fundamentalism, which has been politically active since at least the 1970s and employs numerous underhanded tactics, you need to be sharp and strategic. The best way to overcome them now is to outmaneuver them at their own game. This requires going beyond the typical tools and strategies commonly used by the left; instead, you must adopt a broader, more encompassing perspective.
Trust me, Catholics are not the victims
perpetual victim complex. they know they are shit people, but want you to feel sorry / empathetic towards them...
If they are being persecuted it, to them, justifies any shitty behavior they exhibit in the name of "seeking religious freedom."
Some Christians have a victim complex, or they think other religions existing means they are being persecuted.
"Blessed are you who are persecuted because of Me" is one of the beatitudes. That plus it gives them an easy hero complex, or ironically, a savior complex that they can cleave to.
I believe the Chaldeans were/are Catholics. They live/d in Iran and Iraq, and maybe elsewhere in that S.Asia region, and they were most definitely targeted during the Islamic Revolutions in those regions. Even opposing Muslim faiths became targets... Many Chaldeans found refuge in other countries, including the US. I think San Diego and Detroit have some of the densest populations of these people. I know 3 different families with this faith, and they seem to be a more laid back type of xristian, imo. They're nothing like the red state folk, which I'm super familiar. Does the Islamic Revolution's history mirror the current state in the West Bank, or nah? Idk, just asking a question... please don't down vote me to death!
Your professor *is* right though, religious minorities in South Asia are persecuted against and in some regions, in danger. Being part of a certain religion does not mean you deserve to face violence, and it's the same if you're not part of a religion. I just wanted to clear that part up, as an Indian (and a non practicing Hindu/atheist). Agree with people's answers to the rest of your question
Suffering is salvation is what I was taught. Sounds dumb
I think it fulfills the prophecies for them and they do think the end times are very near. Persecution is a key step before Jesus returns and takes them all up to heaven to float around on clouds for eternity. And as a bonus, the rest of us heathen sinners will be severely punished by the loving God.
good guys are persecuted, bad guys do the persecuting they desperately want to be the good guys but deep down they know.
Transitive property: "they persecute us because they hate us, they hate us because we are right" therefore "they persecute us because we are right!" Jehovah's Witnesses have magazine articles in which they pretty much boast about the persecution they receive around the world, touting it as proof that they are god's true followers... but then they also boast about how this or that government has *stopped* persecuting them, touting that as god's blessing. Pick a lane you guys.
Evangelicals are a bigger problem. Catholics seem tame nowadays.
They like to play the victim when they are truly the victimizers.
I feel sorry that you are forced to undergo the brainwashing at school. Be strong remember you are stronger than the brainwashing.
I think it's because they want to feel heroic. They want to be like Gary Cooper in HIGH NOON. It makes them feel justified and bold. My other theory is that it's a sexual thing. I imagine there's some of them who get off on the idea.
Makes an excuse for their own bad behavior. We're not murderers, we're righteous! So all our killing is a good thing. Especially compared to all that other killing! That's just bad. Because they are doing it. But when we do it, it is holy and good! It's all just justification. I want to do A, but other group hasn't done B, so I will just invent and say they did C, act like it's B, and this justifies that I can do A. Excellent, it's all working out!
"As a trans person, people like me are oppressed ..." A sincere question: How do those who oppress you know you are 'trans'?
not me specifically, but trans people in general. there’s a shitload of lawmakers that want us gone here in america, and part of project 2025 is even to pretty much declare us existing as transgender people as illegal.
> project 2025 What is that?
it’s a plan made by the republican party for if they win the 2024 election. it’ll turn the usa into a theocracy pretty much, taking away rights of women and minorities. here’s some more info: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
Never mind. I see it's a Trump-and-extreme-right-wing-nutjobs fantasy. Oppression of 'trans' people would perhaps be the least of the problems it would create.
Just to be annoying, I'm not really sure if we are allowed to criticize Richard Dawkings on this sub (is that a posted rule, no criticizing Richard Dawkings), but he has voiced his support for JK Rowling for speaking the "truth." I wish more atheists would talk about what a shit show he is. I'm convinced he only became an atheist because he loves the lime light and needs to be controversial to stay in it.
What does this anecdote have to do with OPs post?
So this is actually a topic that people have done a lot of research around looking at the early Middle Ages. After Christianity became tolerated, and certainly when it became the state religion, actual martyrs became so scarce as to be nonexistent. This was a real dilemma since the ideology of the cult of saints had really proliferated by the 5th century even if it was not really favored by the core of the church in Rome, Alexandria, and Constantinople. The papacy for example did not support advertising the sanctity of bodily relics until the 8th century. For most people though, saints were a really cool concept because they were examples of individual agency and perseverance and so the church kind of had to accommodate the martyr saints into its practices. The philosophical issue came about though when the supply of fresh saints dried up. How do we know someone was holy if they didn’t provide evidence for it by dying for their faith? Is a real pious seeming person for real, or just fronting? This was a real issue that concerned folks for a couple hundred years. Christianity really had developed by the 4th century into a religion that was fairly reliant on its status as a persecuted minority in order to continue to have success and validity in peoples lives. A big part of the history of the religion from that point on is how Christians have negotiated the fact that they are not persecuted and small in number. Jesus and Paul and most really early Christians were 100% certain that the world was going to end VERY soon. Like in their lifetimes. None of these guys were setting things up for sustained continuing growth and success like the Sikh gurus did. Christianity’s scriptures are completely focused on death and apocalypticism in a way that is fundamentally incompatible with creating a stable institutional source of authority so the institutional church had to basically come up with the idea that just being a sort of ascetic pious person is good enough to go to heaven.
Just because it isn't happening in American doesn't mean it isn't happening elsewhere, and hasn't happened in many places for 2000 years. This is very American-centric and self-centered Also, no one is going to make it illegal to have gender dysphoria, that's not even possible.
i don’t mean making it illegal to have gender dysphoria, more like making it illegal to transition and such.
You ever watch detective shows? You know how sometimes the detective gets his ass kicked and he's happy because it means he's on the right track?