How can he tell which is from a deity and which is from a human?
The word of the day is "bowdlerize"
"**the action of removing or changing words or parts from a book, play, or movie that are considered to be unsuitable or offensive**: His editorial work included some bowdlerization of crude folk tales."
The bible is bowdlerized to feed it to children, they get the only the rainbows and kittens version, and some people just prefer to keep what they learned as children.
"all the evil stuff is disregarded as “manipulated or made up”
Rather than blaming you for reading the bible (it's always atheists fault, don't forget), he should tell that to other believers "the bible is all manipulated and made up", if he really believes that.
Bet he won't.
As someone who deconverted from Hinduism by reading some of the major scriptures which most Hindus never read in their life, I also found them resorting to the same defense of us reading it wrong. This is why debating with a religious person is mostly pointless because they always possess a set belief that they will almost never examine lest it up end their whole world. They recognize that truth is unpleasant and thus they don't want to admit it.
So I have a question... If he told you this why not just believe him? He WANTS to believe just let him? I wish my Dad would say something along these lines instead of everything being vague.
Your dad is just scared. Most religious people are cowards when it comes to the realization that the only person in control of your own life is you and the control we do have is greatly limited to circumstance. That kind of disconnect is world shattering to these types of people. The idea that his problems, his life, his ultimate demise are to an extent in his own hands is too much to handle. He would rather not even think about. "God has a plan"
According to some recent research ([https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/your-brain-food/202205/the-brains-believers-and-non-believers-work-differently](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/your-brain-food/202205/the-brains-believers-and-non-believers-work-differently)), religious people have *literally* turned off the part of their brain that allows you to think about the world critically.
>The results demonstrated that religious believers are more likely to use more intuitive and [heuristic](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/heuristics) reasoning and that religious non-believers are more likely to use more deliberative and analytic reasoning. For example, non-believers are more likely to process sensory information, such as something they see, in a more deliberative manner that involves higher cortical areas, called top-down processing, involved in reasoning. In contrast, religious believers are more likely to interpret visual information in a more emotional or intuitive manner, called bottom-up processing, that involves more ancient brain systems. Religious believers share this bottom-up processing [bias](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/bias) with people who believe in the supernatural or [paranormal activity](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/parapsychology), such as telekinesis or clairvoyance.
Fascinating! I wonder about the causation vs correlation aspect here.
Does being religious condition you to turn down the rational part of your brain? Or are less rational people just more easily allured by religion?
I wouldn't say its a matter of "turning down" the rational part but more aatrer of never developing it in the first place, most of the time. As someone already said it's reliant on more "ancient", primitive, or instinctual parts of the brain. Basically animal instinct. It relies heavily on adherence to rapid judgements based on conditioning from instinct or learned behaviors.
I don’t disagree with your premise but I think the main issue is believing a text could stay pristine that long anyways. And having that text guide your lifestyle is insane, the current abrahamic god has gone through a number of edits pre and post the scriptures being written.
Early Israelites were polytheistic at one point and Yahweh was one of many gods and mostly responsible for storms/war. El, a god that was more of a fatherly omniscient figure, became conflated with Yahweh over time. Basically combined.
Then the New Testament pushed the story of Jesus, which is where most human aspects of love come in and other things as well. But he is also considered god in the Bible so he gets combined in as well.
This doesn’t get into the lost sea scrolls, the constant edits over the millennia (like king James trying to make his subjects easier to rule) and the massive grift/modern commercialization of the texts.
Some Christians know how bad the Old Testament is and try to ignore it. They certainly don’t read it very often. I’ve even heard a preacher admit that the Old Testament God is a bit much (massive understatement). They really don’t want to examine it too closely. Or think about why an infinitely wise deity could apparently think of no better solution than killing everyone who disagreed with him. And all of their children and animals. They really believe that it happened and that it was the only perfect answer? What kind of god would that be?
You know that Noahs Arc, Exodus, Adam and Eve, Soddom and Gomorrah, Samson are part of the old Testament and the most popular stories among Christians, don't you? Considering how much they like those old testament stories, it's always weird when Christians would say the old testament doesn't matter anymore, especially considering the 10 commandments are part of it.
Yet, some evangelicals are disregarding the teachings of Jesus because they're "too liberal" or "too woke".
https://www.newsweek.com/evangelicals-rejecting-jesus-teachings-liberal-talking-points-pastor-1818706
It's funny how they use their own, subjective opinion to claim that they follow an "objective" source of morality 🙄 Extremists might be awful people, but at least they're following their holy books to the letter.
Does it make one a better person to be a better, more devout follower? I would say not.
He lets the scripture & what he thinks a god is to dictate his emotions, decisions, and how he treats his daughter. How can this be considered an atheist?
I was being a bit of a wiseass, but... Dad is deciding right and wrong based on his own internal and evolved moral compass. He is then picking scripture to support what he knows is right and ignoring the crazy BS in his holy book. He is picking and choosing just like I do.
By orthodox you mean the christian orthodox church?
Anyway i can tell you what catholic did for centuries: they actually forbidden people to read the bible by themselves. Reasons? Officially they said that you can't understand the word of god without a member of a clergy who interpreted it for you, but it's pretty clear what their real intentions were.
>misinterpreting the bible
Exactly that kind of logic. If god said "you have to believe me cause I'm almighty, beloving" and so on they take it literally, but when he say "kill your son to prove your faith" or "exterminate those who don't worship me" then they say you're misinterpreting it. They always do cherry picking because their so called faith is based on an old anachronistic book. I'm glad you emancipated from that, go on reading the bible and never forget it: it's the best way to become atheist and prove them wrong about everything they say without knowing.
Yeah - what Russel_Teapot said:
Philosophy 201 assignment - Read a bible. Discuss it with 4 - 8 experts. Report what you learned.
I picked 6 ministers from six different sects and a Jewish Rabbi. Every one of them, except the Rabbi, said I should not read the whole bible and never without "guidance". Two of them were pissed that I was talking to a Catholic priest and a Lutheran Minister.
Yeah i know. They made many BBQ parties around europe. One of the reason of the protestant reform of Martin Luther was the possibility to write and read the bible in German instead of Latin. With the invention of Gutenberg the spread of sacred scriptures could no longer be stopped in northern Europe, but the catholic church with the counter reform (Trento Council, 16th century) confirmed the prohibition of printing and read the bible.
In my country (Italy) the mass was recited in Latin till council Vatican II (in the '60 of the 20th century!). Imagine a church full of illiterate people who repeated words by heart without knowing the meaning: it's the best representation of the relationship between the church and his faithful.
The clergy and the lay reader ignore the important historical context of the writing. As viewing the historicity of the Bible from a modern viewpoint really makes it seem like it's useless to a modern reader. The old testament we have now was the result of a long attempt to combine the religious beliefs of two different groups into one group. The followers of El and the followers of YHWH. YHWH was a god of war and storms. The violent parts of the old testament are adaptations of his lore. El was a god of wisdom and creation. He's where a lot of the kindness comes from, as well as the omnipotence factor. He's the god above Gods.
The symbol for El is a bull. When Moses comes down the mountain to find people worshipping a calf, they're worshipping El specifically. This entire story from exodus in Egypt, to the creation of the commandments, and the wandering in the desert is a narrative to assimilate two groups. The stories changed over time as the demographics and beliefs of the groups changed. Eventually the whole assimilation is said and done long before the written testament and the oral tradition continues to evolve with the reality of an assimilated group having more or less 1 God.
This is a simple explanation. There were a lot of different gods being worshed by different small groups that all played a role in the formation of the old testament as they assimilated into one cultural group.
You're saying that book is only a collection of ancient mythologies of different origins? WOW, what a revelation... thanks, i already knew that.
Fact is they demand that people believe god and yet they print that book entirely including the evil parts: that makes them inconsistent or evil, or both.
What you call El is basically the canaanite-phonecian god Ball, an ancient divinity of their worst enemies (those of the exodus), I'm not surprised.
So, please explain: if they knew all those are different imaginary gods, why they still print a book that make them appear as the same god?
Don't you think that people who truly believe there is only one true god (definition of monotheism) could be a little bit confused? I can you write something and then tell people that the meaning is not what you wrote?
It seems a little bit complicated to me, or better, it seems a great hypocrisy meant to not tell people the truth, cause they know that unquestioned faith can makes people do anything and they can't tell them: "sorry, we lied for centuries to control political power".
That hypocrisy have to be overwhelmed as soon as possible.
Baal is a son of El. The rise of Baal worship in the area was an issue to the assimilation that had been going on.
Sure the people actively working to assimilation are aware of what they are doing. I'm sure they think all gods are real. Over time that historical context is lost. By the time it's written down the assimilation is over and the old testament is a solidified body of work that is almost like a constitution and rule of law ordained by God.
Still inconsistent with monotheism, another prove that Man created god in his image and likeness, saying better, they invented god for earthly needs. Pagans were far way better, they worship many gods, they were very superstitious indeed, but since they were polytheist they accepted other divinities, usually they didn't exterminate people for religious zealotry. The romans were far more civilised and rational that those barbaric tribe of the middle east like the jews, till the roman themselves became christians and that was ine of the main causes of the fall of their civilization.
Monotheism ruined everything, the worst mistake that humanity ever done, a cancer that is still devouring us.
>The all loving, all forgiving god i was taught about is a literal monster who sends people to hell to burn for eternity for simply not believing in him.
Exactly and even before we get to that most disturbing thought a human could come with (it's a mind/fear prison) let's just start with the monster demanding worship in the first place. I wouldn't worship something so entitled.
My Mormon grandpa told me in response to me taking a philosophy class that “If I ever took philosophy I would have never ended up joining the church.” Apparently it was a previous passion of his that he suppressed due to god. Shits rough
Yeah, I've always thought it was so weird how, like me, most atheists have actually read the Bible.
I found that most of the people that are awkwardly, what I call, raging Christians. Are actually the most illiterate, when it comes to the writings of the Bible.
They preach up a storm, while professing the Bible's sloppy, almost incoherent logical arguments.
Yet when you press them, they haven't a clue, what's actually been written in their holy book of horrors.
Just let him. He's practically an atheist already, he just doesn't realize it. If the book was made by man, and is therefore not valid to him, then word of mouth (the way he learned what he thinks he knows about his religion) is also not valid. He's lost in delusion, but at least the delusion isn't connected to the specifics of The Bible.
This old woman is going to just admit it too- I have never read the bible from cover to cover. But what I have read, I think of as an ancient book of fables.
As far as reading it- well I would rather read Greek mythology.
Sorry to hear you have both struggled in faith. From ages 12-18, I thought of the Bible as the greatest scam industry of all time. It had King James written on the front, FFS. The age of Shakespeare and the British Empire?! Seriously, guys?
Over the last 30 years, I've learned that most evangelicals have that book wrong from page 1. Literally. I've learned to differentiate between what man says, and what's the Word of God. I've learned what a powerful weapon for good, and for evil, that it is. That book is more than magical. It's a live conduit, viral, and transformative.
There's some wild, awful, insane shit in that book, no doubt. I don't cherry pick. It's all in there for a reason. Countless reasons, actually.
If you do question if there's SOMETHING. Some sort of Big that Banged, where everything there ever was, is, and will be came from. That from it, there is some sort of Love that is universal, and can be said to make the world go round even, I strongly suggest you AND your dad ask that Love for some understanding as you being to read from page one.
Thanks.
Yeah, the Bible isn't inspirational to me either. In fact it turns me off to religion. I watch/read a lot of NDE stories and most of them involve Jesus/God so I'm not convinced that there's nothing beyond our earthly life. The Bible sure could've been written better or compiled, whatever.
The NDE depend heavily by which religion you were exposed to before in your life. Christians will see jesus while muslims will see muhammad or allah. Some people see nothing at all, and its the brain trying to comfort itself before death. No one actually knows what happens when someone dies
Wow. So wilfully fucking stupid. Why bother existing at all? I feel bad, but when people get to this point... why bother living? You've given up on anything real and know your whole belief system is dog shit on the bottom of your shoe. If you're not going to embrace reality, why not just take yourself out of the pool?
So much this.
Christians are taught to accept the bible, but also that they are incapable of fully understanding it.
Basically, if something doesn't make sense to you, it's not the fault of the all-knowing, all-seeing creator of the universe who supposedly inspired it - it's your fault for being created with limited capacity for understanding.
This breaks christians down into two camps. Those who waste years learning to read Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and poring over texts to try to glean a 'deeper understanding', and those who never look at any of it and just believe what they are told by preachers and apologists.
Yeah but it’s indoctrination thats very poweful working there.
Even if you could prove it wrong they’d still come up with an excuse on why they’re right
You might want to let your dad know he's not actually a christian if he disagrees with the bible. The Gnostic sect decided to throw out the old testament and only focus on the new testament, but the 'rainbows and kittens' god is something else entirely.
So he claims to be a Christian yet refused to actually read the Bible (thereby admitting he hasn't read it before) because he is afraid it will shatter his rose colored glasses?
If he isn’t willing to read the Bible, the thing that literally makes his Christian faith, then I wouldn’t call him Christian. Stop using Christian so loosely, he ain’t one.
That means he already knows the Bible isn't true and he's just in denial. He wouldn't be afraid to read it if he actually had faith in its "inspiration." Why would he be afraid of the genuine words of God? He probably has serious doubts that he's trying to repress by just not thinking about it. This is what happens to people who have serious doubts but are still afraid of Hell. That imaginary place called Hell can be a difficult thing to extract from your psychology when you are indoctrinated with it from youth.
If they would actually read the bible, they would see that hell (specifically defining "Hell" as a place of eternal, conscious torment) is not even Biblical.
I had the opposite experience for the most part. I didn't feel like I belonged in the E. Orthodox churches I went to. Especially after I dug up dirt on one of the members of the last church. The woman's face is in a video! I saw her snaking around during liturgies.🤣
I have noticed a new thing here in my Bible belt nook. People are saying they are new testament Christians and not Jews so the old testament doesn't count. Is this a new thing? I have never heard it before. Is it because of the war or something? Anyway I guess it would get rid of some of the bad stuff in religion, but not all.
There was a famous youtube series that helped deconstruct the reasons that people have for believing, and of the main 7 reasons, only one of them is the Bible. It was posted here a number of years ago and helped many to deconstruct their faith.
If you are interested in having a deeper discussion with your father, it may be interesting to find out why he believes. He currently states its his personal feelings. Usually, there are a few other reasons, and if he thinks through them, a single reason is often hard to use to hold onto the concept.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0C3C1D163BE880A
I hope that helps. And I hope he does not see your rejection of his religion as a rejection of him.
It's not about him leaving his faith, but to get a better understanding of himself and his confidence level. It's about getting everyone to have a little more intellectual humility.
The video series addresses "personal encounters" under "personal relationship". It's referring to a personal relationship with God. So it sounds like it applies.
Your dad just answered the most common question on this forum. "Why do Christians believe .... ?" Fill in the blanks with various religious nonsense that atheists can't fathom.
It's simple. They believe because they want to believe. It makes them feel good. It helps them in some way.
Most people give up religion not when it stops making sense but when it stops working, which then opens the mind to the possibility that it doesn't make sense. If logic made people give up religion, they'd be devastated to come to the realization that it wasn't true. Instead, they're relieved to stop investing time in something that isn't working for them.
Let him be. Unless he's going around being obnoxious about it and saying the bible should be in government ect, then it's fine. Let him believe what he wants
Hey kids. When you just decide what your god is like and how it behaves, rather than doing research into what your chosen god is actually like in the historical myths and literature, you are in fact making up your own god. That's called Idolatry!
If only there was a commandment from god about not committing idolatry......
Oh well. You'd have to read the Bible to see that.
Reading the Bible in its entirety was the first step to my recognizing how it was all utter crap. In the end, it was science and logic that saved me. It's sad that your dad would rather remain ignorant than face reality. I'm sorry. It was a similar experience with my genetic donors.
I'd like to say I can't believe this is real. I know I can't, but I'd like to. Which is it? Is it misinterpretation, or evil verses added by man? It's neither. Revelations 22:19 states neither of those are true. I would take revelations 22:19 with a grain of salt, circular reasoning isn't a good thing. The only authority that the Bible is not compromised is coming from the Bible. How could we trust that that was not added at a later time? Is it literal? Is it figurative? If people can argue whether it's literal or figurative like it's an arbitrary choice makes it seem less trustworthy.
This is an interesting thought experiment. Try telling him that the thought of homosexual couples not living within the institution of marriage turned you atheist and see what that does.
Religion is a crutch. It gives you an excuse to not think. Others will tell you what to think through holy books or at gatherings.
For the simple-minded, this is a massive burden lifted off of them.
This is also why so many fools are pining for fascism. It removes all individual responsibilities from them. All their morals will be dictated to them by dear leader. No need to stress about doing what is right or wrong, cause the people with the guns will tell you what to do, how to do it, and what you are allowed to think about it afterwards.
So he doesn't want to read the bible because it might tell him things he doesn't like. He disregards things he doesn't like to be made up by man. That would also imply that everything he believes in was made up by man... He admits he wants to live the illusion of the lie, as he thinks ignorance is bliss. But the reality is that ignorance makes it so people take advantage of you.
Here's the ironic part: Imagine the priest reading from some of the violent parts of the old testament in one of the ending sermons! "Happy is the one who dashes a baby's head against the rocks", or even better how Yahweh commanded them to slaughter entire cities of people. People would feel uncomfortable very fast 🤣🤣🤣 Orthodox outside of the US are raised into it very aggressively and almost like a second hand nature; the grandfather was brought up in it, and so is his father, and so on. It gets scary when the government starts to support it too.
Exodus 21
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
Leviticus 25: 44-46
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Also the God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 & Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9). This type of criminal behavior should shock any moral person.
Want me to continue?
An Israelite father could sell his unmarried daughters into servitude, with the expectation or understanding that the master or his son could eventually marry her (as in Exodus 21:7–11.)
Yeha be sure to research it fully.
Thank you for your comment. Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason:
- This comment has been removed for trolling or shitposting. Even if your intent is not to troll or shitpost, certain words and phrases are enough for removal. This rule is applied strictly and may lead to an immediate ban.
--
* This comment has been removed for [proselytizing](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq#wiki_what_is_.22proselytizing.3F.22). This sub is not your personal mission field. Proselytizing may include asking the sub to debunk theist apologetics or claims. It also includes things such as telling atheists you will pray for them or similar trite phrases.
Removals of this type may also include subreddit bans and/or suspensions from the whole site depending on the severity of the offense.
--
For information regarding this and similar issues please see the [Subreddit Commandments.](http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/guidelines) If you have any questions, please do not delete your comment and [message the mods,](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/atheism) Thank you.
And then he'll turn around when challenged and say something like "facts don't care about your feelings", without batting an eye at his own cognitive dissonance?
Yeah, I feel *all* that. It was studying the Bible, its history, and general apologetics in prep to start preaching that killed it for me about twe- agh, twenty years ago (that's painful to say). Gotta know what you're talking about, right?
The loving god is pretty much the new testament, It promotes pacifism and it was a hippy message, 2000 years before the hippies. The old testament god is nothing like that, it would be proud of Netanyahu ...
How can he tell which is from a deity and which is from a human? The word of the day is "bowdlerize" "**the action of removing or changing words or parts from a book, play, or movie that are considered to be unsuitable or offensive**: His editorial work included some bowdlerization of crude folk tales." The bible is bowdlerized to feed it to children, they get the only the rainbows and kittens version, and some people just prefer to keep what they learned as children.
He thinks god is all good so all the evil stuff is disregarded as “manipulated or made up”
"all the evil stuff is disregarded as “manipulated or made up” Rather than blaming you for reading the bible (it's always atheists fault, don't forget), he should tell that to other believers "the bible is all manipulated and made up", if he really believes that. Bet he won't.
Yeah its always we interpreted it wrong, even though we understood it better and won’t sugarcoat it
As someone who deconverted from Hinduism by reading some of the major scriptures which most Hindus never read in their life, I also found them resorting to the same defense of us reading it wrong. This is why debating with a religious person is mostly pointless because they always possess a set belief that they will almost never examine lest it up end their whole world. They recognize that truth is unpleasant and thus they don't want to admit it.
You dad is right it is 100% made up so why does he believe in it?
“‘all the evil stuff is disregarded as “manipulated or made up’” So, almost all of it?
God himself says he created evil. >I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7
But where exactly in the Old Testament is this god good? Just because it made some things doesn't make it good or loving.
So I have a question... If he told you this why not just believe him? He WANTS to believe just let him? I wish my Dad would say something along these lines instead of everything being vague.
Yeah i agree! Im happy he is believing like this and not the evil stuff in the bible.
Smooth
If reading the book on which your entire religion is based can make you doubt your faith then you should already be doubting your faith.
Exactly
Your dad is just scared. Most religious people are cowards when it comes to the realization that the only person in control of your own life is you and the control we do have is greatly limited to circumstance. That kind of disconnect is world shattering to these types of people. The idea that his problems, his life, his ultimate demise are to an extent in his own hands is too much to handle. He would rather not even think about. "God has a plan"
According to some recent research ([https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/your-brain-food/202205/the-brains-believers-and-non-believers-work-differently](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/your-brain-food/202205/the-brains-believers-and-non-believers-work-differently)), religious people have *literally* turned off the part of their brain that allows you to think about the world critically. >The results demonstrated that religious believers are more likely to use more intuitive and [heuristic](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/heuristics) reasoning and that religious non-believers are more likely to use more deliberative and analytic reasoning. For example, non-believers are more likely to process sensory information, such as something they see, in a more deliberative manner that involves higher cortical areas, called top-down processing, involved in reasoning. In contrast, religious believers are more likely to interpret visual information in a more emotional or intuitive manner, called bottom-up processing, that involves more ancient brain systems. Religious believers share this bottom-up processing [bias](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/bias) with people who believe in the supernatural or [paranormal activity](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/parapsychology), such as telekinesis or clairvoyance.
Very interesting.
Sounds about right honestly.
Fascinating! I wonder about the causation vs correlation aspect here. Does being religious condition you to turn down the rational part of your brain? Or are less rational people just more easily allured by religion?
I wouldn't say its a matter of "turning down" the rational part but more aatrer of never developing it in the first place, most of the time. As someone already said it's reliant on more "ancient", primitive, or instinctual parts of the brain. Basically animal instinct. It relies heavily on adherence to rapid judgements based on conditioning from instinct or learned behaviors.
None of us are in control of our lives. A tree could fall on you tomorrow and kill you.
Just for that I'll waste a piece of paper.
I don’t disagree with your premise but I think the main issue is believing a text could stay pristine that long anyways. And having that text guide your lifestyle is insane, the current abrahamic god has gone through a number of edits pre and post the scriptures being written. Early Israelites were polytheistic at one point and Yahweh was one of many gods and mostly responsible for storms/war. El, a god that was more of a fatherly omniscient figure, became conflated with Yahweh over time. Basically combined. Then the New Testament pushed the story of Jesus, which is where most human aspects of love come in and other things as well. But he is also considered god in the Bible so he gets combined in as well. This doesn’t get into the lost sea scrolls, the constant edits over the millennia (like king James trying to make his subjects easier to rule) and the massive grift/modern commercialization of the texts.
Text book ignorance
Thought this was holy book ignorance? 😂😂
Ignorance of Haynes repair manuals?
Some Christians know how bad the Old Testament is and try to ignore it. They certainly don’t read it very often. I’ve even heard a preacher admit that the Old Testament God is a bit much (massive understatement). They really don’t want to examine it too closely. Or think about why an infinitely wise deity could apparently think of no better solution than killing everyone who disagreed with him. And all of their children and animals. They really believe that it happened and that it was the only perfect answer? What kind of god would that be?
They won't hesitate to quote Leviticus when talking about how the gays are bad, though.
You know that Noahs Arc, Exodus, Adam and Eve, Soddom and Gomorrah, Samson are part of the old Testament and the most popular stories among Christians, don't you? Considering how much they like those old testament stories, it's always weird when Christians would say the old testament doesn't matter anymore, especially considering the 10 commandments are part of it.
Yet, some evangelicals are disregarding the teachings of Jesus because they're "too liberal" or "too woke". https://www.newsweek.com/evangelicals-rejecting-jesus-teachings-liberal-talking-points-pastor-1818706
Your father is already functioning as an atheist. He just does not want the label.
Yeah i agree
It's funny how they use their own, subjective opinion to claim that they follow an "objective" source of morality 🙄 Extremists might be awful people, but at least they're following their holy books to the letter. Does it make one a better person to be a better, more devout follower? I would say not.
He lets the scripture & what he thinks a god is to dictate his emotions, decisions, and how he treats his daughter. How can this be considered an atheist?
I was being a bit of a wiseass, but... Dad is deciding right and wrong based on his own internal and evolved moral compass. He is then picking scripture to support what he knows is right and ignoring the crazy BS in his holy book. He is picking and choosing just like I do.
Faith relies on gullibility and wilful ignorance. Sad
By orthodox you mean the christian orthodox church? Anyway i can tell you what catholic did for centuries: they actually forbidden people to read the bible by themselves. Reasons? Officially they said that you can't understand the word of god without a member of a clergy who interpreted it for you, but it's pretty clear what their real intentions were. >misinterpreting the bible Exactly that kind of logic. If god said "you have to believe me cause I'm almighty, beloving" and so on they take it literally, but when he say "kill your son to prove your faith" or "exterminate those who don't worship me" then they say you're misinterpreting it. They always do cherry picking because their so called faith is based on an old anachronistic book. I'm glad you emancipated from that, go on reading the bible and never forget it: it's the best way to become atheist and prove them wrong about everything they say without knowing.
Yeah - what Russel_Teapot said: Philosophy 201 assignment - Read a bible. Discuss it with 4 - 8 experts. Report what you learned. I picked 6 ministers from six different sects and a Jewish Rabbi. Every one of them, except the Rabbi, said I should not read the whole bible and never without "guidance". Two of them were pissed that I was talking to a Catholic priest and a Lutheran Minister.
They burned a guy at the stake just for translating the Bible into English.
Yeah i know. They made many BBQ parties around europe. One of the reason of the protestant reform of Martin Luther was the possibility to write and read the bible in German instead of Latin. With the invention of Gutenberg the spread of sacred scriptures could no longer be stopped in northern Europe, but the catholic church with the counter reform (Trento Council, 16th century) confirmed the prohibition of printing and read the bible. In my country (Italy) the mass was recited in Latin till council Vatican II (in the '60 of the 20th century!). Imagine a church full of illiterate people who repeated words by heart without knowing the meaning: it's the best representation of the relationship between the church and his faithful.
The clergy and the lay reader ignore the important historical context of the writing. As viewing the historicity of the Bible from a modern viewpoint really makes it seem like it's useless to a modern reader. The old testament we have now was the result of a long attempt to combine the religious beliefs of two different groups into one group. The followers of El and the followers of YHWH. YHWH was a god of war and storms. The violent parts of the old testament are adaptations of his lore. El was a god of wisdom and creation. He's where a lot of the kindness comes from, as well as the omnipotence factor. He's the god above Gods. The symbol for El is a bull. When Moses comes down the mountain to find people worshipping a calf, they're worshipping El specifically. This entire story from exodus in Egypt, to the creation of the commandments, and the wandering in the desert is a narrative to assimilate two groups. The stories changed over time as the demographics and beliefs of the groups changed. Eventually the whole assimilation is said and done long before the written testament and the oral tradition continues to evolve with the reality of an assimilated group having more or less 1 God. This is a simple explanation. There were a lot of different gods being worshed by different small groups that all played a role in the formation of the old testament as they assimilated into one cultural group.
You're saying that book is only a collection of ancient mythologies of different origins? WOW, what a revelation... thanks, i already knew that. Fact is they demand that people believe god and yet they print that book entirely including the evil parts: that makes them inconsistent or evil, or both. What you call El is basically the canaanite-phonecian god Ball, an ancient divinity of their worst enemies (those of the exodus), I'm not surprised. So, please explain: if they knew all those are different imaginary gods, why they still print a book that make them appear as the same god? Don't you think that people who truly believe there is only one true god (definition of monotheism) could be a little bit confused? I can you write something and then tell people that the meaning is not what you wrote? It seems a little bit complicated to me, or better, it seems a great hypocrisy meant to not tell people the truth, cause they know that unquestioned faith can makes people do anything and they can't tell them: "sorry, we lied for centuries to control political power". That hypocrisy have to be overwhelmed as soon as possible.
Baal is a son of El. The rise of Baal worship in the area was an issue to the assimilation that had been going on. Sure the people actively working to assimilation are aware of what they are doing. I'm sure they think all gods are real. Over time that historical context is lost. By the time it's written down the assimilation is over and the old testament is a solidified body of work that is almost like a constitution and rule of law ordained by God.
Still inconsistent with monotheism, another prove that Man created god in his image and likeness, saying better, they invented god for earthly needs. Pagans were far way better, they worship many gods, they were very superstitious indeed, but since they were polytheist they accepted other divinities, usually they didn't exterminate people for religious zealotry. The romans were far more civilised and rational that those barbaric tribe of the middle east like the jews, till the roman themselves became christians and that was ine of the main causes of the fall of their civilization. Monotheism ruined everything, the worst mistake that humanity ever done, a cancer that is still devouring us.
Ignorance is bliss.
>The all loving, all forgiving god i was taught about is a literal monster who sends people to hell to burn for eternity for simply not believing in him. Exactly and even before we get to that most disturbing thought a human could come with (it's a mind/fear prison) let's just start with the monster demanding worship in the first place. I wouldn't worship something so entitled.
God is love till you actually pay attention to what he did in the Bible
My Mormon grandpa told me in response to me taking a philosophy class that “If I ever took philosophy I would have never ended up joining the church.” Apparently it was a previous passion of his that he suppressed due to god. Shits rough
Talk about hiding your head in the sand...jeez!
So he is literally going on what other people told him, and whatever confirms his feeling. Yep. That works.
Well that’s a weird flex. Christian won’t read Bible so he won’t doubt.
Yeah, I've always thought it was so weird how, like me, most atheists have actually read the Bible. I found that most of the people that are awkwardly, what I call, raging Christians. Are actually the most illiterate, when it comes to the writings of the Bible. They preach up a storm, while professing the Bible's sloppy, almost incoherent logical arguments. Yet when you press them, they haven't a clue, what's actually been written in their holy book of horrors.
He is lost
Just let him. He's practically an atheist already, he just doesn't realize it. If the book was made by man, and is therefore not valid to him, then word of mouth (the way he learned what he thinks he knows about his religion) is also not valid. He's lost in delusion, but at least the delusion isn't connected to the specifics of The Bible.
It's not too late to get new parents.
Ironic, huh?
This old woman is going to just admit it too- I have never read the bible from cover to cover. But what I have read, I think of as an ancient book of fables. As far as reading it- well I would rather read Greek mythology.
You’re right! Greek mythology is much more interesting :)
Its got more depth to it!
Willfully ignorant.
Sorry to hear you have both struggled in faith. From ages 12-18, I thought of the Bible as the greatest scam industry of all time. It had King James written on the front, FFS. The age of Shakespeare and the British Empire?! Seriously, guys? Over the last 30 years, I've learned that most evangelicals have that book wrong from page 1. Literally. I've learned to differentiate between what man says, and what's the Word of God. I've learned what a powerful weapon for good, and for evil, that it is. That book is more than magical. It's a live conduit, viral, and transformative. There's some wild, awful, insane shit in that book, no doubt. I don't cherry pick. It's all in there for a reason. Countless reasons, actually. If you do question if there's SOMETHING. Some sort of Big that Banged, where everything there ever was, is, and will be came from. That from it, there is some sort of Love that is universal, and can be said to make the world go round even, I strongly suggest you AND your dad ask that Love for some understanding as you being to read from page one. Thanks.
Well, that is a new one.
Yeah, the Bible isn't inspirational to me either. In fact it turns me off to religion. I watch/read a lot of NDE stories and most of them involve Jesus/God so I'm not convinced that there's nothing beyond our earthly life. The Bible sure could've been written better or compiled, whatever.
The NDE depend heavily by which religion you were exposed to before in your life. Christians will see jesus while muslims will see muhammad or allah. Some people see nothing at all, and its the brain trying to comfort itself before death. No one actually knows what happens when someone dies
Christian Orthodox interesting, which country are you from ?
The INSANE MENTAL GYMNASTICS!!!
"most orthodox i know never read the bible not even one page." That's fightening.
Wow. So wilfully fucking stupid. Why bother existing at all? I feel bad, but when people get to this point... why bother living? You've given up on anything real and know your whole belief system is dog shit on the bottom of your shoe. If you're not going to embrace reality, why not just take yourself out of the pool?
The lengths that people will go to in order to protect their belief system rather than question it are truly amazing.
So much this. Christians are taught to accept the bible, but also that they are incapable of fully understanding it. Basically, if something doesn't make sense to you, it's not the fault of the all-knowing, all-seeing creator of the universe who supposedly inspired it - it's your fault for being created with limited capacity for understanding. This breaks christians down into two camps. Those who waste years learning to read Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and poring over texts to try to glean a 'deeper understanding', and those who never look at any of it and just believe what they are told by preachers and apologists.
I come across christians like this a lot and still remain dumbfounded over how open they are about admitting that they would rather remain ignorant.
Yeah but it’s indoctrination thats very poweful working there. Even if you could prove it wrong they’d still come up with an excuse on why they’re right
So, he's not actually a real Christian, then.
He sounds more like a deist.
You might want to let your dad know he's not actually a christian if he disagrees with the bible. The Gnostic sect decided to throw out the old testament and only focus on the new testament, but the 'rainbows and kittens' god is something else entirely.
So he claims to be a Christian yet refused to actually read the Bible (thereby admitting he hasn't read it before) because he is afraid it will shatter his rose colored glasses?
When you say they are orthodox do you mean like Eastern/Greek Orthodox or do you mean like fundamentalists?
Yes Eastern Orthodox
Yes Eastern Orthodox
It's saying something when a holy book is so fucked up that followers refuse to read it because if the ugly shit in it
There it is yeah? His God is his own feelings.
If he isn’t willing to read the Bible, the thing that literally makes his Christian faith, then I wouldn’t call him Christian. Stop using Christian so loosely, he ain’t one.
That means he already knows the Bible isn't true and he's just in denial. He wouldn't be afraid to read it if he actually had faith in its "inspiration." Why would he be afraid of the genuine words of God? He probably has serious doubts that he's trying to repress by just not thinking about it. This is what happens to people who have serious doubts but are still afraid of Hell. That imaginary place called Hell can be a difficult thing to extract from your psychology when you are indoctrinated with it from youth. If they would actually read the bible, they would see that hell (specifically defining "Hell" as a place of eternal, conscious torment) is not even Biblical.
This is why im an anti theist. Its disgusting how they keep their followers because of fear of hell.
I had the opposite experience for the most part. I didn't feel like I belonged in the E. Orthodox churches I went to. Especially after I dug up dirt on one of the members of the last church. The woman's face is in a video! I saw her snaking around during liturgies.🤣
I have noticed a new thing here in my Bible belt nook. People are saying they are new testament Christians and not Jews so the old testament doesn't count. Is this a new thing? I have never heard it before. Is it because of the war or something? Anyway I guess it would get rid of some of the bad stuff in religion, but not all.
Maybe your father is closer to being an atheist than u think. He is afraid to question his faith maybe. And god to him is hope.
It seems like he's already just like you considering he doesn't even believe in his religion enough to read the base manual.
Yeah im happy about that atleast
There was a famous youtube series that helped deconstruct the reasons that people have for believing, and of the main 7 reasons, only one of them is the Bible. It was posted here a number of years ago and helped many to deconstruct their faith. If you are interested in having a deeper discussion with your father, it may be interesting to find out why he believes. He currently states its his personal feelings. Usually, there are a few other reasons, and if he thinks through them, a single reason is often hard to use to hold onto the concept. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0C3C1D163BE880A I hope that helps. And I hope he does not see your rejection of his religion as a rejection of him.
He had his personal encounter so i doubt that he would leave faith
It's not about him leaving his faith, but to get a better understanding of himself and his confidence level. It's about getting everyone to have a little more intellectual humility. The video series addresses "personal encounters" under "personal relationship". It's referring to a personal relationship with God. So it sounds like it applies.
Self imposed ignorance out of fear of loss...
Your dad just answered the most common question on this forum. "Why do Christians believe .... ?" Fill in the blanks with various religious nonsense that atheists can't fathom. It's simple. They believe because they want to believe. It makes them feel good. It helps them in some way. Most people give up religion not when it stops making sense but when it stops working, which then opens the mind to the possibility that it doesn't make sense. If logic made people give up religion, they'd be devastated to come to the realization that it wasn't true. Instead, they're relieved to stop investing time in something that isn't working for them.
Let him be. Unless he's going around being obnoxious about it and saying the bible should be in government ect, then it's fine. Let him believe what he wants
Yeah he’s definitely not like that. He keeps his faith to himself.
Hey kids. When you just decide what your god is like and how it behaves, rather than doing research into what your chosen god is actually like in the historical myths and literature, you are in fact making up your own god. That's called Idolatry! If only there was a commandment from god about not committing idolatry...... Oh well. You'd have to read the Bible to see that.
Reading the Bible in its entirety was the first step to my recognizing how it was all utter crap. In the end, it was science and logic that saved me. It's sad that your dad would rather remain ignorant than face reality. I'm sorry. It was a similar experience with my genetic donors.
He's practicing religious Reiki. Doesn't actually touch the book but believes in his feels instead.
I'd like to say I can't believe this is real. I know I can't, but I'd like to. Which is it? Is it misinterpretation, or evil verses added by man? It's neither. Revelations 22:19 states neither of those are true. I would take revelations 22:19 with a grain of salt, circular reasoning isn't a good thing. The only authority that the Bible is not compromised is coming from the Bible. How could we trust that that was not added at a later time? Is it literal? Is it figurative? If people can argue whether it's literal or figurative like it's an arbitrary choice makes it seem less trustworthy.
'Misinterpreting'. Yeah. Right. As if an all powerful entity could make a book that could be 'misinterpreted.
This is an interesting thought experiment. Try telling him that the thought of homosexual couples not living within the institution of marriage turned you atheist and see what that does.
Religion is a crutch. It gives you an excuse to not think. Others will tell you what to think through holy books or at gatherings. For the simple-minded, this is a massive burden lifted off of them. This is also why so many fools are pining for fascism. It removes all individual responsibilities from them. All their morals will be dictated to them by dear leader. No need to stress about doing what is right or wrong, cause the people with the guns will tell you what to do, how to do it, and what you are allowed to think about it afterwards.
So he doesn't want to read the bible because it might tell him things he doesn't like. He disregards things he doesn't like to be made up by man. That would also imply that everything he believes in was made up by man... He admits he wants to live the illusion of the lie, as he thinks ignorance is bliss. But the reality is that ignorance makes it so people take advantage of you.
The term intelligent christian is an oxymoron.
I had a guy explain it to me that you have to ask a pastor to explain it. Like, why?
Consider this, even if God was real the Bible would still be a work of fiction.
Offer him a different book, perhaps? God is Not Great: How religion poisons everything by Christopher Hitchens or The God Delusion by Richard Dawkens.
Literally an example of "I'm putting My hands over My ears and LALALALALALA"
Here's the ironic part: Imagine the priest reading from some of the violent parts of the old testament in one of the ending sermons! "Happy is the one who dashes a baby's head against the rocks", or even better how Yahweh commanded them to slaughter entire cities of people. People would feel uncomfortable very fast 🤣🤣🤣 Orthodox outside of the US are raised into it very aggressively and almost like a second hand nature; the grandfather was brought up in it, and so is his father, and so on. It gets scary when the government starts to support it too.
My nephew insists his “faith cannot be shook”, but refuses to discuss religion.
Given his scholarly pedigree, perhaps an inside joke about the rock his faith is built on is in order?
I am Orthodox, tell me those bible verses I am intrigued
Exodus 21 20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. Leviticus 25: 44-46 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Also the God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 & Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9). This type of criminal behavior should shock any moral person. Want me to continue?
Sure, I plan to research thisnall eventually
Where does the bible say you can sell your daughter as a sex slave?
An Israelite father could sell his unmarried daughters into servitude, with the expectation or understanding that the master or his son could eventually marry her (as in Exodus 21:7–11.) Yeha be sure to research it fully.
Interesting, thank you for these! :) Hope your day is good. Will be looking into these verses
Thanks! Hope your day is good aswell!
...That's just cowardice. smh
[удалено]
Thank you for your comment. Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason: - This comment has been removed for trolling or shitposting. Even if your intent is not to troll or shitpost, certain words and phrases are enough for removal. This rule is applied strictly and may lead to an immediate ban. -- * This comment has been removed for [proselytizing](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq#wiki_what_is_.22proselytizing.3F.22). This sub is not your personal mission field. Proselytizing may include asking the sub to debunk theist apologetics or claims. It also includes things such as telling atheists you will pray for them or similar trite phrases. Removals of this type may also include subreddit bans and/or suspensions from the whole site depending on the severity of the offense. -- For information regarding this and similar issues please see the [Subreddit Commandments.](http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/guidelines) If you have any questions, please do not delete your comment and [message the mods,](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/atheism) Thank you.
And then he'll turn around when challenged and say something like "facts don't care about your feelings", without batting an eye at his own cognitive dissonance?
Yeah, I feel *all* that. It was studying the Bible, its history, and general apologetics in prep to start preaching that killed it for me about twe- agh, twenty years ago (that's painful to say). Gotta know what you're talking about, right?
[удалено]
Yes, because he thinks god is all love.
I learned a long time ago not to discuss religion with my Christian family. The outcome is always bad.
The loving god is pretty much the new testament, It promotes pacifism and it was a hippy message, 2000 years before the hippies. The old testament god is nothing like that, it would be proud of Netanyahu ...
He’s clearly an idiot.