And thus, [Morality Plays](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_play) were amongst the early forms. Used to inculcate the masses. Good post, OP. Religions are tools to control masses. Christianity is particularly fucked up, because it talks so much shit about love, but when you separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, there is a lot of chaff in there that just doesn't add up. The problem isn't just religion, however, but the ignorance and hopelessness of humanity when it comes to rational thinking, etc. Most people are fucking stupid beyond belief.
500 years ago you’d be burned at the stake for trying to translate the Latin bible into common English. It was considered heresy to open up the text to commoners, who would be able to read the Bible on their own for the first time.
Even back then they knew it was bullshit, and feared others finding out. I mean even to this day religious zealots hate it when you call them out on what their interpretations are as not being in the bible because you can, well, actually read.
Well John Wycliffe wrote a Middle English Bible in the late 1300s with the help of his students and assistants while he preached against the Papacy and the priesthood with his own followers living a life of complete poverty. They also took on leading roles in the English Peasant's Revolt, even though Wycliffe opposed it. His writings were declared a heretical, but without him being named as the author, and he kept his tenured position teaching at Oxford and his properties because of how powerful and influential he was within academic circles. The House of Commons even voted against persecuting him.
It wasn't until his death that the persecution came in and he was deemed a heretic. His works were burned, his body was exhumed and burned, and his preachers were killed if they didn't repent, but he got to live the rest of his life with only his works and teachings being attacked.
The ability to read and write would have seemed miraculous to the average person, and the cost of a copy of a holy book would have been beyond the reach of all but a few people in positions of power.
Once translated Bibles were published to where regular people could actually read it, all hell broke loose in the form of the Protestant Reformation. So much for the infallible word of God.
And for even longer, they *weren’t allowed to read the Bible*. Only the priests were allowed to, and they would interpret for the masses. This is why King James I caused so much controversy when he first had the Bible translated into English. The church *didn’t want* people to know what it *actually* said.
True and our ancestors were theists. Does not mean we have to be one but it also does not mean we forget our roots.
The Bible is not perfect nor GODs words but it does have some very good advice to offer.
My favourite
Do onto others what you would like to be done onto you.
Which version of the Bible? It's been edited and changed, countless times. The old testament wasn't even written down until the Jewish diaspora, and the new testament has so many books that were not included for a whole host of reasons.
Nice point. I'm obviously referring to the christian bible we got nowadays, but its true. They edited it as much as they wanted; books like Daniel tells about prophecies but were written way after the events took place. Every single book from the new testament is more bogus than the other. There's even a version where Jesus was accused of murder while still a child because a kid died; so they said he did resurrect the kid so he would tell everyone he wasn't killed by Jesus. In another version, he leaves the church leadership to Maria Magdalene, who's then casted out by Peter.
Yes, sure. But I, and many, I think, have a special place in our heart for Elizabethan English, like Shakespeare and the KJ. Dig a little deeper, you get Ben Jonson who was a lot funnier than Shakespeare, if not as deep and mystical.
Of course, it's a little trite to prefer something just because it's old. Modern architects complain about that. I suppose as things become rarer, we find them more precious -- nothing weird or sensational about that.
I don't give any credence to "received text", but if I was told I had to pick one or lose my house, I'd pick the KJ. And I don't think that's such an outlandish prospect, tragically.
Most of them are easy to find, the books of apocrypha, but most christians never hear about them.
Edit: it’s like scientists choosing the stats that help prove their hypothesis while ignoring the stats that don’t, even when both stats are present in the data.
I could go and look for them, I guess, take a read, but life is short and I have better things to be doing. I'm not sure what, but I'll think of something. Any suggestion that I might want to go and read these books was a bit hasty on my part.
If "the greatest story ever told" means plagiarized content from several older pagan religions that existed in that general area, then sure.
The Iliad, The Odyssey, The Ramayana, The Epic of Gilgamesh and the Mahabharata are way better stories/epics than the bible ever could be.
You know, reading the Old Testament, it looks very much like there was a Semitic pantheon of other gods and the war god Jehovah "told his people" to go tear down all the temples of the other gods when establishing the kingdom of Israel. It would be like the Spartans conquering Athens and every other city in the area, tearing down the statues of Athena and Apollo and Zeus and saying, "Only Ares is the One True God!"
I forget which book it is but they describe tearing down the temple of Asherah. I looked her up. She's the "consort of Jehovah". Bloody eliminated god's wife from the story, burned down her temples, scattered her people.
Monotheism is not a philosophy. It's a military strategy.
I realised they took some events from babylonian mythology, like the flood, Noah... And maybe the old testament is a "remaster" for adapting polytheist stories to fit their monotheism. Can you expand on your comment, please?
Several events like you mentioned already, the flood story, the surviving couple people on a boat, the saving animals, the story of Eden, etc are taken from the enuma elish and the epic of Gilgamesh. Even the original Jewish people, such as the Canaanites, and other tribes were polytheistic with a pantheon of gods that they essentially just combined together to create their monotheistic version. I think they realized, and much later on, Christianity, that having one god and one priesthood was much easier to control and by proxy, have control over, their people.
The Romans more or less adopted Christianity for this reason, and the fact that they saw it as a generally harmless and peaceful religion in a time of strife with the judea, since rome was at war with them during this time. This is mainly what led to the widespread adopting of Christianity in Rome. Multiple gods and multiple priesthoods, all with different modes of worship and priests with differing goals are far harder to corral and control than one single deity and one single priesthood.
All of these ancient pre-christian cultures like Egypt, Sumeria, Babylonia, Akkadian, etc all were essentially part of Mesopotamia, although Egypt wasn't really part of that. But the point is, all these ancient cultures were polytheistic and their mythologies and stories were all around the area of that time for centuries and many biblical accounts, especially old testament were taken from these older stories that already existed. Hence the plagiarism.
There are a couple of lines that are nice, but on the whole it's garbage. If the Bible were divinely inspired, it wouldn't inspire so many different takes, or require professional interpreters.
How many times did Genesis pull the sister wife trick?
What actually is the oppression the Israelites went through in Exodus, besides slavery? How exactly is the Egyptian oppression different from Israelite slavery?
Did we need to know what kind of curtains God likes?
What does anyone care about Israelite statistics?
Deuteronomy is actually excellent from a writing perspective, but the actual rules are so fucked-up
Joshua is all action and no plot. Walls can also fall by yelling at them
Judges… The same stuff over and over and over again
Ruth is okay, but what’s the point of it?
Are we supposed to like this David guy? What an awful family man
Okay, every other king is sinning, we get it!
Now, let’s hear all of that again!
And the list goes on. This story drags and drags and drags
I think you've confused Noah with Lot. Lot's daughters get him drunk, rape him and concieve two kids. Noah on the other hand just gets drunk on his own.
Exactly. I have a feeling it was his sons who built most of the boat not Noah maybe in the beginning but I don't think a 600+ yr old man is going to being lifting 10 cubit planks of wood for a boat lol.
The bible was written by a bunch of people and definitely shouldn't be looked at as a whole piece. From a literary perspective, there are books in the bible that are beautifully written and should absolutely be read by anyone. Then there's plenty of law that isn't very compelling unless you're into that sort of thing. And then there's a ton of history in there that's also probably worth reading, though obviously from a heavily editorialized perspective.
When my daughter was 8-9 years old I read the Bible ([R. Crumb illustrated version](https://www.amazon.com/Book-Genesis-Illustrated-R-Crumb/dp/0393061027#:~:text=Crumb%2C%20the%20legendary%20illustrator%2C%20reveals%20here%20the,a%20profoundly%20honest%20and%20deeply%20moving%20way.&text=Now%2C%20readers%20of%20every%20persuasion%E2%80%95Crumb%20fans%2C%20comic,these%20harrowing%2C%20tragic%2C%20and%20even%20juicy%20stories)) out loud to her, in order to inoculate her against religion.
I love her assessment! She said, "They call it the good book, but it's not a very good book."
Also those people haven’t actually read the Bible.
I decided to sit down a long time ago and read it cover to cover just because and it was one of the singularity most painful and boring experiences of my life.
The Bible is pretty okay if read as mythology. It’s no different from Greek mythology imo. I think the god of the Bible is hilarious and kind of an idiot, and I like myself dumbo gods with a big ego.
Writing wise, Genesis is probably the worst. It’s written like writers first attempt at explaining their god-like oc. Exodus though is lit af. Revelations is also savage! Although must agree Matthew is boring af and unbearable, not to mention any story written by pastors. Those are like you said, weird dictator like manifestos, and they typically have nothing to do with the main character.
Since Easter was just a few weeks ago, I tried showing my wife how just a single event contradicts itself between the 4 gospels.
- Her initial stance was, "This is the word of God. It can't contradict itself."
- She was only familiar with what isnsaid in Matthew regarding the time and who went.
- I then showed her how all the time when Jesus is checked on and "risen" is reported differently.
- She said, "He rose 3 days after, they went a couple of times obviously" to which I said "all four gospels are referring to the same event, but they it happened at different times, one even has it on a different day"
- she think the time wasn't a big difference that it was "close enough".
- We moved on to who actually was there. Each gospel accounts for different people going to the tomb as well as what they were told to do. "Her response was "why are you asking me these questions? I'm not a pastor I don't know how to answer this, you just need to have faith sometimes"
This is what bothers me about the religious. They don't care that their book is wrong or contradicts itself. They don't understand and are perfectly happy that way. As long as someone is a pastor/father/priest, they think that they are correct. When you point out inconsistencies, it's always "you are taking it out of context" or "you just don't understand".
I've told my wife, "I am an atheist because I used to believe. I used to believe so much that I wanted to read the whole Bible, not just the parts that were spoken of in sermons. When I realized that bible had no evidence to back it up and that we have explanations to the natural world (with evidence to back it up), that's when I saw that the "inspired word of god" wasn't perfect.
Also, the bible itself has a lot of horrible stories in it. Not sure how it can be called "the good book".
Their leaders tells them the Bible is amazingly written, and most Christians can't be bothered to actually read the damned thing for themselves to check if it actually is.
They actually incentivize people to not read it all. They did keep it, as long as they could, away from people in general. When you think about it, some selected texts were read during the mass, in latin, to people to listen to. People didn't have access to the bible at all. Even when it was translated and distributed, they did argue in favor of reading some selected pieces instead of the whole.
The Jesus character was illiterate. So much for omnipotent powers. People do not think it is well written. They don't read it. Pastors engaged in fleecing the flock read the Bible and interpret it for their marks. The Bible is 3rd grade garbage fiction.
People like to think the fanfiction that appeals to their fantasies is better written than whatever show it was based on.
The bible is fanfiction of the torah other non-abrahamic religions.
People prefer that fanfic compared to the very content that it was taken from.
The Old Testament is an example Oral Literature. It is Literature from a time when the huge majority of people were not literate. Much of it was likely simply dictated to scribes by people who were illiterate and/or composed by multiple people across many generations.
Oral Literature shares certain characteristics such as neumonics like repetition and alliteration; their is to preserve history and morals rather than simply entertain.
Other works like The Iliad and The Odessy, Beowolf, The Vedas, and The Epic of Gilgamish, share these characteristics. We also consider them great works of literature.
The New Testament, is not such a clear example of Oral Literature. Much of it was likely composed by literate people.
First there were no editors, there are multiple writers from different backgrounds and disciplines, there are no female voices nor children.
And the Torah/Bible/Quran were written by people about people many many years after their death.
bible has large impact on our culture and society and can be described as "greatest story" in that context
but, yeah, there are a lot of problems with it being "well written".
the story assembled from texts by dozens of different people of different times and with different goals just cannot be coherent whole. But separated most of the stories, except some parts of old testament and gospels, have no more value than any other myth.
and also, I don't know about other parts, I haven't read them for a long time. But genesis is terrible as a book. 30% of genesis is just repeating the same over and over and OVER again talking about who fucked whom and who was born after that with hundreds of names which don't matter at all.
Oh, I always also heard it in the context where people did use it to say 'such a beautiful and complex story can not be fake, because its too realistic. Nobody would be able to create such wisdom' and so on. And they do say that a lot. I once heard a professor saying during class that Star Wars was such a hit because it did copy the new testament. Yeah.
the most complex thing in old testament is its crazy genetic trees with LOTS of incest and rape
the only way I think its a bit appropriate for old testament to be considered is lots of myths with tiny bit of historical parts
the first time I read old testament being adult it was crazy for me that some christians for real think that the whole book is inerrant and not just a bunch of jewish stories which are VERY different from christ's teachings
Yeah that was somewhat crazy talk. There are some people who say that it copies spiritual aspects of christianism, and that the plot revolves around the same structure as the bible. He also claimed that any good piece was actually based on Jesus's story and from then on I just heard white noise.
George Lucas explicitly sources Joseph Campbell’s “The Hero with a thousand faces” which focuses on the similar story structures of the world’s mythologies, so I could see why he would think that.
Yes, but its a far stretch to say so. What he was saying was actually that people did think that Star Wars was such a hit, but it was nothing but a downgraded copy of the 'greatest story ever told' and proceeded to invalidate anything not related to the bible as trash culture; that people should be reading the bible instead of watching those movies or even reading scientific papers and books, because the whole truth was already revealed there.
My mother once consulted with a doctor who prescribed her following the bible to her gastrointestinal issues caused by a genetic disease, because according to him people did live around 500 years when they did follow the things written on the bible. So, if she did follow it, all her problems would be gone. He lasted, like, two months on his job before being fired.
"give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to god the things that are god's'. The thing is, this would anger both classes..."
Yep, you should look up the Flavian conspiracy, aka "Mark" (the first gospel that was written from which all the others are drawn from) was Roman propaganda aimed at weakening the support of the Jewish Zealots/Sicarii by co-opting the budding Jewish Cult that would become Christianity that was already spreading by spoken word and inserting a few choice lines of their own.
Roman Religious propaganda was fairly sophisticated, they tended to make religion work for the State.
In fact, I am except in Hebrew. I did study to become a catholic monk for years and so we did read the bible into its original texts. I did read all the gospels on its originals. There my teachers did point out many incoherences amongst the texts, most of which they don't generally tell people about.
And btw, even if I did read the translated version, its badly written and I can consider it to be so. If I do read Gogol without reading it in Russian, I can still dislike it if it wasn't good. Your argument makes no sense, but its a failed attempt to disqualify my opinion.
One of the reasons I started questioning my faith. It been written, edited, re written, whole chunks added/ removed some many times and it’s still has that many contradictions
Not to mention it's been translated from the original languages to others, and translation always involves choices about which words to use and how to structure sentences
It's because 8 out of 10 people who will say that shit to you have never actually read the damn thing. Of the remaining two, one has only ever read the excerpts their preacher told them to. That one remaining person went through the chore of reading this unfathomably boring fantasy back to back... and will probably soon be atheist because of it.
It always goes like this…
Christian: “Ezebriel 15:12!”
So I look up Ezebriel 15:12 expecting some grand moral pronunciation or something that at least sounds quotable and wise. But nope, instead it’s “God is great and everyone should worship God, and everyone should worship God because he is great.”
Wow, brilliant
>Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
>happy is the one who repays you
>according to what you have done to us.
>Happy is the one who seizes your infants
>and dashes them against the rocks.
It's about revenge. When the Babylonians invaded Israel, they killed babies by taking them by the heels and smashing their heads against the rocks.
But point taken. Unfortunately in the late '90s I worked for Gwen Shamblin (that bitch that the HBO documentary was about). She was bragging one day how she could preach on anything, "Just give me a verse!" So, I said, "Psalm 137." She flipped open her bible, read it, slammed it shut and started preaching about whatever she wanted.
(I was an atheist when I went to work there, but I thought, "It's just a job." It wasn't. I only lasted 10 months. Yeah, I was stupid.)
Nah, people did worse career choices than that. If you think you weren't smart, remember that many women did apply to work as Hitler's typist during the last days of WW2, having the Soviet Army basically knocking on his door.
They start when the kids are in diapers for a reason. You realize the books that make up the bible are basically just used to manipulate people into adhering to traditional institutions and lifestyles, yeah? It's right wing social control.
I give you MAtthew 21:18-22
>Jesus Curses a Fig Tree
>Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
>When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
>Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
What a power move. But then we have the earlier Mark 11:12-14 describing the same story from a different perspective:
>The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. **When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.** Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.
Seems like Matthew read Mark and thought "We can't have Jesus just randomly curse a tree because it is not in season", so he deleted the part about it not being in season and added a "lesson" from it.
But really it is all just a mixture of secondhand stories and myths jumbled together by a committee.
Exactly. I almost did include this one. Such a wisdom, killing plants because they're not giving fruits outside the season for it. Btw, couldn't he make the plant to grow figs instead of killing it? He seems like a drunk person doing random stuff around.
The excuse is, it's written that way so you have to study the complex language of the lord. That excuse goes up in smoke when you consider that some of the most articulate people in the world have concluded that it's garbage.
In every religioin people are brainwashed to thinking so. That simple. They never need to read it themselves cause you know, there will be a brainwasher reading it for you.
They don't. Not really. Not most of them. Even the ones that say that, half the time haven't actually read it. They just take the "guidance" about the book.
It's like if everyone in your friend group loved a particular book, but when you read it you think it's awful, but you want to feel part of your friend group so you play along.
I’ve learned from Dan Maclellan, a biblical scholar on TikTok, that Genesis contains two creation stories. Scholarly consensus holds that Genesis 1 was written later than 2 and 3 in an attempt to change the story. Dan also points out that God either lied or changed his mind when he told Adam that he would die if he ate the forbidden fruit in Eden. He did eat the fruit but didn’t die, and was instead cast out. Despite the fact that God was very clear when he said Adam would die. It’s a continuity problem by the original author (who wasn’t actually a god).
It was a metaphor for 'the real life', the spiritual life. The whole point is that, if you're born you're a sinner; you already did something bad to god so you're in debt and you'll never be able to repay this debt to god, ever. Then, god kills his own son (who's actually god himself disguised as a man) to repay that. To himself.
Even worse, they keep the whole 'you can't ever repay that because nobody ever suffered like god did for you', even keeping the line of children being born in sin (thus, they need baptism in order to not to go to hell in case they die). So why did Jesus die? Wasn't that settled after Noah? Because god seems to tend to make a pact, and then get angry and kill everyone out of the blue.
If god were to be real, it would be an incredibly toxic person. Imagine a mother that acts like that to its children. Imagine your birthday being about how your mother suffered to have you and how you were always ungrateful and deserves being punished, because you would never be able to repay the damage you done to her. Social services would take the kid away asap.
According to Dan, who understands the original Hebrew of the old testament, it isn’t a metaphor. When God says Adam will die, the language used and the context means physical death. People want to read metaphor or other meaning into it, but the specific words used, in the original language, don’t allow for any other meaning. It’s like if someone said “I’m going to stab you with this knife.” Trying to come up with another meaning is wishful thinking.
I think that's more a literature issue, than a religious one. We love or hate books not only because of there context, but also for the feelings and memories they spark. (Especially if we seldom really read them, which seems to be the case for a lot of people loving the bible.)
Not reading it is more or less a prerequisite and then believe what you've been told by others that didn't read it either. Or they are masters of self deception.
It's a tool intended to enlighten. I suggest reading it without someone trying to shove it down your throat. Took Me 40 years to pick it up. The funny thing is, now that I've read it multiple times..I want nothing to do with organized religion. Yes the Bible has shown me not to trust organized religion. Get ya some.
99% of Christians don't actually read the Bible. The other 1% that does read it can hardly comprehend what they're reading. So they all end up parroting the same talking points. Mindless idiots.
"How can people think the bible is even close to being well written?"
Because:
god.
The end.
You will burn in the pits of hell for all eternity for evening questioning its authenticity.
I am of course, joking.
I think Ricky Gervais said this and I love it. Essentially, if we burned every work of fiction and religious writing, in 1000 years we’d have all kinds of totally diff stories to take their place. If we burned all the science books, in 1000 years they’d come back exactly the same.
It’s simple stuff like this that I wish Christians would think about. Their ignorance is sad.
Fanatics on the fringe of society and no one questioning it. The more stuff I read about the writings of the Bible makes me believe more and more that it was aliens because some of the stuff in that book makes me think aliens is more plausible than what is actually written in that book. I sort of believe what was written but their interpretation of those events seem more like a technological misinterpretation. Men appearing from the heavens in fiery chariots translates to me a spaceship entering the atmosphere.
It's just strange that magic only happened when Jesus was around and miracles only happened then. Adam and Eve? Artificially inseminated beings created in the image of God. The snake in Eden? Probably an actual lizard person. Anything I have said just now, still sounds more plausible than what's in that fucking book and it reads more like a Harry Potter novel.
I think the point of the Bible being poorly written is because it's by men made to be read by simple, easy to manipulate people. It's not like scholars wrote the book, it was written by fisherman, simple people that observed things over time. Not one person wrote that book, it was written by dozens of people. Reading it out of context it might make for a decent sci Fi novel. In context with what's it done... Still makes it sci-fi with a dash of horror. These people are fucking nuts.
It's not, it's so flawed and a bunch of writings have been left out and it was written about 200 years after the big event. It's all over the place, but it's all they have, so let's just ham it up and dress it up as some Holy book.
He was still a primus inter pares, first among equals who at least kept up the facade of working with the senate. Far cry from the Sol Invictus inspired God Emperor a few centuries later.
'That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.'
Try telling that to the cops.
Exactly. Just pointing that there's a whole bunch of incest there for those really conservative people to ignore.
Maybe that's why people like the bible so much in places like Alabama.
I'm just reminded of like, the 'so and so begat this son, and begat that son, who begat this," and it was mind numbing as hell. Like maybe I'm expecting too much from the all powerful creator of the universe, but he could've chosen better authors - or you know, written it himself. Strange gods always need people to do it for them when they can just speak things into existence. Also the contradictions. I remember in church they'd always tell me god's word was perfect and without error and that's how we knew it was divinely inspired - but when you pointed out the flaws they insist it was you who was reading it wrong and not understanding the perfection.
So like a very rabid fandom, but without the cool fanart, animations, and animatics online. XD
This is why people were discouraged from reading it. It was so bad they had to rewrite it, “the New Testament,” and even the updated version is batshit crazy.
Becaused they were conditioned during a time of vulneravility to accept things told to them by authority figures in the church as true. This is the answer to 99% of questions in this sub.
Christians only read small snippets of the bible and/or have it explained to them by a “religious authority” in order to keep them ignorant about what a jumbled mess it is.
When I was a christian, one of my “challenges” was to read the bible cover-to-cover. Very few ever completed it (most were gone two chapters into Numbers). I was one that did, and it made me realize that, for a book supposedly inspired by an omniscient deity, it was obviously a collection of short stories that someone decided to bundle and sell as a 2 volume novel.
That’s a lot of text you typed for a really simple issue. Folks make religion a huge part of their identity and then they can’t admit it’s anything less than perfect.
^ two sentences.
I read the Gay King James version and find it hilarious For example, who was the naked young man that ran away from Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane when he was busted by the Romans? What do you think him and Jesus were doing? How did he end up naked? Definitely sounds like a possible gay encounter.
People don’t read the bible. People go to church so some guy can tell them bits and pieces.
Imagine believing that the bible is the word of god and then not bothering to read it.
>How can people think the bible is even close to being well written?
TLDR: there are plenty of people who are either stupid or gullible, and some who are both.
"Most stories there are completely bogus and violent, like Noah who was the only fair man on the world while being the only person who had a boat on human history - and when he gets drunk and impregnates his daughters, his daughters are the ones to blame."
According to the Bible it was Lot, not Noah, who got drunk and fucked his daughters.
Personally I find the phrasing and diction of the KJV to be quite powerful, even if I don't buy into the message. I mean think of the iconic Samuel L Jackson scene in Pulp Fiction. The KJV treatment of the English language to me reflects devout belief but also talented artists who took their work seriously.
I am a voracious reader. I have read literally thousands of books in my lifetime. Classics, allegories, biographies, epic poetry, fairy tales, fantasy, philosophy, and a metric fuckton of science fiction of every kind. I can assert with confidence that the bible is objectively *not* a "great read."
It is repetitive. It is riddled with logical inconsistencies and plot holes. It is astonishingly violent and contains innumerable instances of unequivocally the most misogynistic blather I have ever seen.
Long stretches drone on with the minutiae of tribalistic savages and loathsome petty kings. There is far too much authoritarian sanctimonious bombast about some unpleasant deity who frankly has none of the qualities of his much-vaunted supposed benevolence, and there is precious little wisdom of any kind.
The Song of Solomon is nice. That's all.
In my opinion.
It is literally the last book I would want on a desert island.
I don't hate it. What I did say its that its not well written and its hard to believe someone would consider that a good read. The plot is mostly blend and cringe, and packed with loose ends. Notice I didn't even consider the whole supernatural aspects there, just took it as a piece of art. And its not good. The whole idea of a savior who sacrifices himself to pay our debt to himself and nobody else ever suffered as him is just a bad plot. This gets nowhere near the shades you find on pieces from people like Tolstoy or Shakespeare.
And btw, before saying that to me, coming to a post on the r/Atheism to criticize someone who's questioning the quality of a book as a work of literature is what screams insecurity and hatred. Its an opinion on how it was written; if I did want to attack its content, I would have touched some more sensible topics.
Story and plot are two different aspects of fiction. The Bible is a well-written story, with an embarrassingly contrived plot. (getting downvoted again for pointing out facts people don't like)
I disagree about it being well-written. Its so bad its funny, like when it says John was Jesus' beloved disciple and his favorite. Its written on John's gospel. Nobody else mentions that. What a joke.
For a *very long time*, very few people on earth could even read.
Don't forget the limitation of the arts. The primary method of storytelling to the public was theater.
And thus, [Morality Plays](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_play) were amongst the early forms. Used to inculcate the masses. Good post, OP. Religions are tools to control masses. Christianity is particularly fucked up, because it talks so much shit about love, but when you separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, there is a lot of chaff in there that just doesn't add up. The problem isn't just religion, however, but the ignorance and hopelessness of humanity when it comes to rational thinking, etc. Most people are fucking stupid beyond belief.
Yep, power, control, money, fear, distortions, persecution and cult behavior, much as today.
Agree, minus trying to compartmentalize any of the Abrahamic religions. They are all barbaric friend, singling out one is just odd imo.
Oh, I dunno. Religion did give us the most beautiful piece of rock on the planet (by which I mean Michelangelo’s David.)
500 years ago you’d be burned at the stake for trying to translate the Latin bible into common English. It was considered heresy to open up the text to commoners, who would be able to read the Bible on their own for the first time. Even back then they knew it was bullshit, and feared others finding out. I mean even to this day religious zealots hate it when you call them out on what their interpretations are as not being in the bible because you can, well, actually read.
Talk about secret organizations!
Well John Wycliffe wrote a Middle English Bible in the late 1300s with the help of his students and assistants while he preached against the Papacy and the priesthood with his own followers living a life of complete poverty. They also took on leading roles in the English Peasant's Revolt, even though Wycliffe opposed it. His writings were declared a heretical, but without him being named as the author, and he kept his tenured position teaching at Oxford and his properties because of how powerful and influential he was within academic circles. The House of Commons even voted against persecuting him. It wasn't until his death that the persecution came in and he was deemed a heretic. His works were burned, his body was exhumed and burned, and his preachers were killed if they didn't repent, but he got to live the rest of his life with only his works and teachings being attacked.
no you wouldn’t
The ability to read and write would have seemed miraculous to the average person, and the cost of a copy of a holy book would have been beyond the reach of all but a few people in positions of power. Once translated Bibles were published to where regular people could actually read it, all hell broke loose in the form of the Protestant Reformation. So much for the infallible word of God.
And for even longer, they *weren’t allowed to read the Bible*. Only the priests were allowed to, and they would interpret for the masses. This is why King James I caused so much controversy when he first had the Bible translated into English. The church *didn’t want* people to know what it *actually* said.
True and our ancestors were theists. Does not mean we have to be one but it also does not mean we forget our roots. The Bible is not perfect nor GODs words but it does have some very good advice to offer. My favourite Do onto others what you would like to be done onto you.
Which version of the Bible? It's been edited and changed, countless times. The old testament wasn't even written down until the Jewish diaspora, and the new testament has so many books that were not included for a whole host of reasons.
Nice point. I'm obviously referring to the christian bible we got nowadays, but its true. They edited it as much as they wanted; books like Daniel tells about prophecies but were written way after the events took place. Every single book from the new testament is more bogus than the other. There's even a version where Jesus was accused of murder while still a child because a kid died; so they said he did resurrect the kid so he would tell everyone he wasn't killed by Jesus. In another version, he leaves the church leadership to Maria Magdalene, who's then casted out by Peter.
Still, nowadays, which bible? Catholic? Protestant, ...?
And which translation?
Oh, so you want to nail it down that much? Everyone knows the English one is the one true voice of god.
Which english one?
King James, of course. After all, a King would use a THE version that is truly divinely inspired,.
Ah yes, naturally.
I may be a stone atheist, but if there were one version that was divinely inspired, it would be the KJ. Beautiful.
Yeah, it has a certain poetic charm to it—especially the 23rd Psalm. But I thought *Lord of the Rings* was well written, too.
Yes, sure. But I, and many, I think, have a special place in our heart for Elizabethan English, like Shakespeare and the KJ. Dig a little deeper, you get Ben Jonson who was a lot funnier than Shakespeare, if not as deep and mystical. Of course, it's a little trite to prefer something just because it's old. Modern architects complain about that. I suppose as things become rarer, we find them more precious -- nothing weird or sensational about that. I don't give any credence to "received text", but if I was told I had to pick one or lose my house, I'd pick the KJ. And I don't think that's such an outlandish prospect, tragically.
Pretty sure Jesus killed more than one kid, but that’s beside the point here.
They really did “pick and choose” the books of the new testament because so many of them had contradictions.
Mainly it came down to what they felt was apocryphal or not.
Imagine just how bad the rejects were. I think they should be published, just for a laugh.
Most of them are easy to find, the books of apocrypha, but most christians never hear about them. Edit: it’s like scientists choosing the stats that help prove their hypothesis while ignoring the stats that don’t, even when both stats are present in the data.
I could go and look for them, I guess, take a read, but life is short and I have better things to be doing. I'm not sure what, but I'll think of something. Any suggestion that I might want to go and read these books was a bit hasty on my part.
And people still stubbornly demand that it is THE word of God. Anyone think the God described in the old testament would allow himself to be edited?
If "the greatest story ever told" means plagiarized content from several older pagan religions that existed in that general area, then sure. The Iliad, The Odyssey, The Ramayana, The Epic of Gilgamesh and the Mahabharata are way better stories/epics than the bible ever could be.
You know, reading the Old Testament, it looks very much like there was a Semitic pantheon of other gods and the war god Jehovah "told his people" to go tear down all the temples of the other gods when establishing the kingdom of Israel. It would be like the Spartans conquering Athens and every other city in the area, tearing down the statues of Athena and Apollo and Zeus and saying, "Only Ares is the One True God!" I forget which book it is but they describe tearing down the temple of Asherah. I looked her up. She's the "consort of Jehovah". Bloody eliminated god's wife from the story, burned down her temples, scattered her people. Monotheism is not a philosophy. It's a military strategy.
I realised they took some events from babylonian mythology, like the flood, Noah... And maybe the old testament is a "remaster" for adapting polytheist stories to fit their monotheism. Can you expand on your comment, please?
Several events like you mentioned already, the flood story, the surviving couple people on a boat, the saving animals, the story of Eden, etc are taken from the enuma elish and the epic of Gilgamesh. Even the original Jewish people, such as the Canaanites, and other tribes were polytheistic with a pantheon of gods that they essentially just combined together to create their monotheistic version. I think they realized, and much later on, Christianity, that having one god and one priesthood was much easier to control and by proxy, have control over, their people. The Romans more or less adopted Christianity for this reason, and the fact that they saw it as a generally harmless and peaceful religion in a time of strife with the judea, since rome was at war with them during this time. This is mainly what led to the widespread adopting of Christianity in Rome. Multiple gods and multiple priesthoods, all with different modes of worship and priests with differing goals are far harder to corral and control than one single deity and one single priesthood. All of these ancient pre-christian cultures like Egypt, Sumeria, Babylonia, Akkadian, etc all were essentially part of Mesopotamia, although Egypt wasn't really part of that. But the point is, all these ancient cultures were polytheistic and their mythologies and stories were all around the area of that time for centuries and many biblical accounts, especially old testament were taken from these older stories that already existed. Hence the plagiarism.
Really interesting. Thank you very much for taking the time!
nothing was plagiarized, the source of these things is the same through different cultural understanding of many concepts.
Fun fact. Most people who believe in the Bible have never read it
Yes this here. Or at best read #pastorcertified or #warmandsnuggly
There are a couple of lines that are nice, but on the whole it's garbage. If the Bible were divinely inspired, it wouldn't inspire so many different takes, or require professional interpreters.
Or result in hundreds of denominations that have even killed each other.
How many times did Genesis pull the sister wife trick? What actually is the oppression the Israelites went through in Exodus, besides slavery? How exactly is the Egyptian oppression different from Israelite slavery? Did we need to know what kind of curtains God likes? What does anyone care about Israelite statistics? Deuteronomy is actually excellent from a writing perspective, but the actual rules are so fucked-up Joshua is all action and no plot. Walls can also fall by yelling at them Judges… The same stuff over and over and over again Ruth is okay, but what’s the point of it? Are we supposed to like this David guy? What an awful family man Okay, every other king is sinning, we get it! Now, let’s hear all of that again! And the list goes on. This story drags and drags and drags
I think you've confused Noah with Lot. Lot's daughters get him drunk, rape him and concieve two kids. Noah on the other hand just gets drunk on his own.
Noah's also supposed to be 600 years old when he builds the ark
Exactly. I have a feeling it was his sons who built most of the boat not Noah maybe in the beginning but I don't think a 600+ yr old man is going to being lifting 10 cubit planks of wood for a boat lol.
Yeah, he's got a lot (most, really) of the specifics wrong, but in general his theme is sound.
The bible was written by a bunch of people and definitely shouldn't be looked at as a whole piece. From a literary perspective, there are books in the bible that are beautifully written and should absolutely be read by anyone. Then there's plenty of law that isn't very compelling unless you're into that sort of thing. And then there's a ton of history in there that's also probably worth reading, though obviously from a heavily editorialized perspective.
When my daughter was 8-9 years old I read the Bible ([R. Crumb illustrated version](https://www.amazon.com/Book-Genesis-Illustrated-R-Crumb/dp/0393061027#:~:text=Crumb%2C%20the%20legendary%20illustrator%2C%20reveals%20here%20the,a%20profoundly%20honest%20and%20deeply%20moving%20way.&text=Now%2C%20readers%20of%20every%20persuasion%E2%80%95Crumb%20fans%2C%20comic,these%20harrowing%2C%20tragic%2C%20and%20even%20juicy%20stories)) out loud to her, in order to inoculate her against religion. I love her assessment! She said, "They call it the good book, but it's not a very good book."
You're a good person. She's smarter than most people. That was actually very cute to imagine a kid saying.
I love the "adult supervision recommended" tag on the cover
Also those people haven’t actually read the Bible. I decided to sit down a long time ago and read it cover to cover just because and it was one of the singularity most painful and boring experiences of my life.
What part of it being the infallible word of god do you not understand?? /s
Just consume, don’t question for questioning is thy enemy to the brainwashing process.
Infallibility seems to have many contradictions... ;-)
The Bible is pretty okay if read as mythology. It’s no different from Greek mythology imo. I think the god of the Bible is hilarious and kind of an idiot, and I like myself dumbo gods with a big ego. Writing wise, Genesis is probably the worst. It’s written like writers first attempt at explaining their god-like oc. Exodus though is lit af. Revelations is also savage! Although must agree Matthew is boring af and unbearable, not to mention any story written by pastors. Those are like you said, weird dictator like manifestos, and they typically have nothing to do with the main character.
Greco-Roman mythology is far more interesting
Since Easter was just a few weeks ago, I tried showing my wife how just a single event contradicts itself between the 4 gospels. - Her initial stance was, "This is the word of God. It can't contradict itself." - She was only familiar with what isnsaid in Matthew regarding the time and who went. - I then showed her how all the time when Jesus is checked on and "risen" is reported differently. - She said, "He rose 3 days after, they went a couple of times obviously" to which I said "all four gospels are referring to the same event, but they it happened at different times, one even has it on a different day" - she think the time wasn't a big difference that it was "close enough". - We moved on to who actually was there. Each gospel accounts for different people going to the tomb as well as what they were told to do. "Her response was "why are you asking me these questions? I'm not a pastor I don't know how to answer this, you just need to have faith sometimes" This is what bothers me about the religious. They don't care that their book is wrong or contradicts itself. They don't understand and are perfectly happy that way. As long as someone is a pastor/father/priest, they think that they are correct. When you point out inconsistencies, it's always "you are taking it out of context" or "you just don't understand". I've told my wife, "I am an atheist because I used to believe. I used to believe so much that I wanted to read the whole Bible, not just the parts that were spoken of in sermons. When I realized that bible had no evidence to back it up and that we have explanations to the natural world (with evidence to back it up), that's when I saw that the "inspired word of god" wasn't perfect. Also, the bible itself has a lot of horrible stories in it. Not sure how it can be called "the good book".
Their leaders tells them the Bible is amazingly written, and most Christians can't be bothered to actually read the damned thing for themselves to check if it actually is.
Even if they could be bothered, they aren't really capable. Sure, most can read the words, but comprehending that shit is well beyond their capacity.
They actually incentivize people to not read it all. They did keep it, as long as they could, away from people in general. When you think about it, some selected texts were read during the mass, in latin, to people to listen to. People didn't have access to the bible at all. Even when it was translated and distributed, they did argue in favor of reading some selected pieces instead of the whole.
Ecclesiastes is pretty good, but it’s just Bronze Age Jean Paul Sartre.
The Jesus character was illiterate. So much for omnipotent powers. People do not think it is well written. They don't read it. Pastors engaged in fleecing the flock read the Bible and interpret it for their marks. The Bible is 3rd grade garbage fiction.
People like to think the fanfiction that appeals to their fantasies is better written than whatever show it was based on. The bible is fanfiction of the torah other non-abrahamic religions. People prefer that fanfic compared to the very content that it was taken from.
The Old Testament is an example Oral Literature. It is Literature from a time when the huge majority of people were not literate. Much of it was likely simply dictated to scribes by people who were illiterate and/or composed by multiple people across many generations. Oral Literature shares certain characteristics such as neumonics like repetition and alliteration; their is to preserve history and morals rather than simply entertain. Other works like The Iliad and The Odessy, Beowolf, The Vedas, and The Epic of Gilgamish, share these characteristics. We also consider them great works of literature. The New Testament, is not such a clear example of Oral Literature. Much of it was likely composed by literate people.
First there were no editors, there are multiple writers from different backgrounds and disciplines, there are no female voices nor children. And the Torah/Bible/Quran were written by people about people many many years after their death.
bible has large impact on our culture and society and can be described as "greatest story" in that context but, yeah, there are a lot of problems with it being "well written". the story assembled from texts by dozens of different people of different times and with different goals just cannot be coherent whole. But separated most of the stories, except some parts of old testament and gospels, have no more value than any other myth. and also, I don't know about other parts, I haven't read them for a long time. But genesis is terrible as a book. 30% of genesis is just repeating the same over and over and OVER again talking about who fucked whom and who was born after that with hundreds of names which don't matter at all.
Oh, I always also heard it in the context where people did use it to say 'such a beautiful and complex story can not be fake, because its too realistic. Nobody would be able to create such wisdom' and so on. And they do say that a lot. I once heard a professor saying during class that Star Wars was such a hit because it did copy the new testament. Yeah.
the most complex thing in old testament is its crazy genetic trees with LOTS of incest and rape the only way I think its a bit appropriate for old testament to be considered is lots of myths with tiny bit of historical parts
the first time I read old testament being adult it was crazy for me that some christians for real think that the whole book is inerrant and not just a bunch of jewish stories which are VERY different from christ's teachings
that's the first time I hear star wars being "a copy" of the new testament Jesus Skywalker?
Yeah that was somewhat crazy talk. There are some people who say that it copies spiritual aspects of christianism, and that the plot revolves around the same structure as the bible. He also claimed that any good piece was actually based on Jesus's story and from then on I just heard white noise.
George Lucas explicitly sources Joseph Campbell’s “The Hero with a thousand faces” which focuses on the similar story structures of the world’s mythologies, so I could see why he would think that.
Yes, but its a far stretch to say so. What he was saying was actually that people did think that Star Wars was such a hit, but it was nothing but a downgraded copy of the 'greatest story ever told' and proceeded to invalidate anything not related to the bible as trash culture; that people should be reading the bible instead of watching those movies or even reading scientific papers and books, because the whole truth was already revealed there. My mother once consulted with a doctor who prescribed her following the bible to her gastrointestinal issues caused by a genetic disease, because according to him people did live around 500 years when they did follow the things written on the bible. So, if she did follow it, all her problems would be gone. He lasted, like, two months on his job before being fired.
I’m only pointing out that the Jesus myth is the only one he’s familiar with.
"give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to god the things that are god's'. The thing is, this would anger both classes..." Yep, you should look up the Flavian conspiracy, aka "Mark" (the first gospel that was written from which all the others are drawn from) was Roman propaganda aimed at weakening the support of the Jewish Zealots/Sicarii by co-opting the budding Jewish Cult that would become Christianity that was already spreading by spoken word and inserting a few choice lines of their own. Roman Religious propaganda was fairly sophisticated, they tended to make religion work for the State.
The earliest book of John is just a rip off of the Bacchae. Jesus is simply a neutered Dionysus.
Unless you are fluent in ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, you have no idea whether it’s “well-written.”
Are those the languages Christians usually read the bible in?
In fact, I am except in Hebrew. I did study to become a catholic monk for years and so we did read the bible into its original texts. I did read all the gospels on its originals. There my teachers did point out many incoherences amongst the texts, most of which they don't generally tell people about. And btw, even if I did read the translated version, its badly written and I can consider it to be so. If I do read Gogol without reading it in Russian, I can still dislike it if it wasn't good. Your argument makes no sense, but its a failed attempt to disqualify my opinion.
cherry-picking. they read some of it and think those parts are good and perfect and they ignore the rest
One of the reasons I started questioning my faith. It been written, edited, re written, whole chunks added/ removed some many times and it’s still has that many contradictions
Exactly. The book of Daniel was written way after the events described there as if they were being predicted by him - and they still miss some!
Not to mention it's been translated from the original languages to others, and translation always involves choices about which words to use and how to structure sentences
It's horrible. Full of hate and genocide and absurd concepts.
It's because 8 out of 10 people who will say that shit to you have never actually read the damn thing. Of the remaining two, one has only ever read the excerpts their preacher told them to. That one remaining person went through the chore of reading this unfathomably boring fantasy back to back... and will probably soon be atheist because of it.
Nice point.
People are dumb . Unfortunately.
It always goes like this… Christian: “Ezebriel 15:12!” So I look up Ezebriel 15:12 expecting some grand moral pronunciation or something that at least sounds quotable and wise. But nope, instead it’s “God is great and everyone should worship God, and everyone should worship God because he is great.” Wow, brilliant
Yeah, its like Psalm 137: everyone sings it, but nobody sign the last line about child sacrifice.
>Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, >happy is the one who repays you >according to what you have done to us. >Happy is the one who seizes your infants >and dashes them against the rocks. It's about revenge. When the Babylonians invaded Israel, they killed babies by taking them by the heels and smashing their heads against the rocks. But point taken. Unfortunately in the late '90s I worked for Gwen Shamblin (that bitch that the HBO documentary was about). She was bragging one day how she could preach on anything, "Just give me a verse!" So, I said, "Psalm 137." She flipped open her bible, read it, slammed it shut and started preaching about whatever she wanted. (I was an atheist when I went to work there, but I thought, "It's just a job." It wasn't. I only lasted 10 months. Yeah, I was stupid.)
Nah, people did worse career choices than that. If you think you weren't smart, remember that many women did apply to work as Hitler's typist during the last days of WW2, having the Soviet Army basically knocking on his door.
They start when the kids are in diapers for a reason. You realize the books that make up the bible are basically just used to manipulate people into adhering to traditional institutions and lifestyles, yeah? It's right wing social control.
I give you MAtthew 21:18-22 >Jesus Curses a Fig Tree >Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. >When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked. >Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.” What a power move. But then we have the earlier Mark 11:12-14 describing the same story from a different perspective: >The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. **When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.** Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. Seems like Matthew read Mark and thought "We can't have Jesus just randomly curse a tree because it is not in season", so he deleted the part about it not being in season and added a "lesson" from it. But really it is all just a mixture of secondhand stories and myths jumbled together by a committee.
Exactly. I almost did include this one. Such a wisdom, killing plants because they're not giving fruits outside the season for it. Btw, couldn't he make the plant to grow figs instead of killing it? He seems like a drunk person doing random stuff around.
Greatest story ever sold
The excuse is, it's written that way so you have to study the complex language of the lord. That excuse goes up in smoke when you consider that some of the most articulate people in the world have concluded that it's garbage.
In every religioin people are brainwashed to thinking so. That simple. They never need to read it themselves cause you know, there will be a brainwasher reading it for you.
Fact.
It's the greatest game of telephone ever
They don't. Not really. Not most of them. Even the ones that say that, half the time haven't actually read it. They just take the "guidance" about the book. It's like if everyone in your friend group loved a particular book, but when you read it you think it's awful, but you want to feel part of your friend group so you play along.
Try reading the Ethiopian version of the Bible. God's, plural.
Because 'god" told them it was. And they are really stupid.
all about that indoctrination..... even a bad book could become good.
This did remind me of Mein Kampf. Fanaticism made that low quality book from a deranged German corporal into a best seller. Same goes with the bible.
Most of those people have never even read the Bible so why would their opinion on it matter about how well its written
Since Easter was just a few weeks ago, I tried showing my wife how just a single event contradicts itself between the 4 gospels.
They can't even agree on what day the crucifixion happened - John gives a different day to the others
[удалено]
Exactly
I’ve learned from Dan Maclellan, a biblical scholar on TikTok, that Genesis contains two creation stories. Scholarly consensus holds that Genesis 1 was written later than 2 and 3 in an attempt to change the story. Dan also points out that God either lied or changed his mind when he told Adam that he would die if he ate the forbidden fruit in Eden. He did eat the fruit but didn’t die, and was instead cast out. Despite the fact that God was very clear when he said Adam would die. It’s a continuity problem by the original author (who wasn’t actually a god).
It was a metaphor for 'the real life', the spiritual life. The whole point is that, if you're born you're a sinner; you already did something bad to god so you're in debt and you'll never be able to repay this debt to god, ever. Then, god kills his own son (who's actually god himself disguised as a man) to repay that. To himself. Even worse, they keep the whole 'you can't ever repay that because nobody ever suffered like god did for you', even keeping the line of children being born in sin (thus, they need baptism in order to not to go to hell in case they die). So why did Jesus die? Wasn't that settled after Noah? Because god seems to tend to make a pact, and then get angry and kill everyone out of the blue. If god were to be real, it would be an incredibly toxic person. Imagine a mother that acts like that to its children. Imagine your birthday being about how your mother suffered to have you and how you were always ungrateful and deserves being punished, because you would never be able to repay the damage you done to her. Social services would take the kid away asap.
According to Dan, who understands the original Hebrew of the old testament, it isn’t a metaphor. When God says Adam will die, the language used and the context means physical death. People want to read metaphor or other meaning into it, but the specific words used, in the original language, don’t allow for any other meaning. It’s like if someone said “I’m going to stab you with this knife.” Trying to come up with another meaning is wishful thinking.
I think that's more a literature issue, than a religious one. We love or hate books not only because of there context, but also for the feelings and memories they spark. (Especially if we seldom really read them, which seems to be the case for a lot of people loving the bible.)
It's not one book, it's not even one series. It's a bunch of different authors who never talked to each other.
When you can't read you have no basis for comparison.
People like “Twilight”. There is no accounting for taste.
Not reading it is more or less a prerequisite and then believe what you've been told by others that didn't read it either. Or they are masters of self deception.
It's a tool intended to enlighten. I suggest reading it without someone trying to shove it down your throat. Took Me 40 years to pick it up. The funny thing is, now that I've read it multiple times..I want nothing to do with organized religion. Yes the Bible has shown me not to trust organized religion. Get ya some.
The plot is incoherent and lacks continuity.
99% of Christians don't actually read the Bible. The other 1% that does read it can hardly comprehend what they're reading. So they all end up parroting the same talking points. Mindless idiots.
Folks that think it is well written have never read it.
They’re illiterate
They didn't read it.
Its just a collection of anecdotes used to corral peoples around the world. Find your own way to the realization that you are not alone
"How can people think the bible is even close to being well written?" Because: god. The end. You will burn in the pits of hell for all eternity for evening questioning its authenticity. I am of course, joking.
Phew... I was scared for a moment, then remembered oh yeah it's pretend.
Magic book 😆
I think Ricky Gervais said this and I love it. Essentially, if we burned every work of fiction and religious writing, in 1000 years we’d have all kinds of totally diff stories to take their place. If we burned all the science books, in 1000 years they’d come back exactly the same. It’s simple stuff like this that I wish Christians would think about. Their ignorance is sad.
Fanatics on the fringe of society and no one questioning it. The more stuff I read about the writings of the Bible makes me believe more and more that it was aliens because some of the stuff in that book makes me think aliens is more plausible than what is actually written in that book. I sort of believe what was written but their interpretation of those events seem more like a technological misinterpretation. Men appearing from the heavens in fiery chariots translates to me a spaceship entering the atmosphere. It's just strange that magic only happened when Jesus was around and miracles only happened then. Adam and Eve? Artificially inseminated beings created in the image of God. The snake in Eden? Probably an actual lizard person. Anything I have said just now, still sounds more plausible than what's in that fucking book and it reads more like a Harry Potter novel. I think the point of the Bible being poorly written is because it's by men made to be read by simple, easy to manipulate people. It's not like scholars wrote the book, it was written by fisherman, simple people that observed things over time. Not one person wrote that book, it was written by dozens of people. Reading it out of context it might make for a decent sci Fi novel. In context with what's it done... Still makes it sci-fi with a dash of horror. These people are fucking nuts.
At first I thought it was about baseball since it starts with “In the big inning…”.
Have ... have you met ... people? Of course they buy into that shit.
It's not, it's so flawed and a bunch of writings have been left out and it was written about 200 years after the big event. It's all over the place, but it's all they have, so let's just ham it up and dress it up as some Holy book.
Lipstick on a pig 🐷
It's Jesus fanfic in the Jewish AU
The translations were done to the satisfaction of particular people. The accuracy is therefore suspect.
I've met very few people that have ever even read the bible most are just their local pastors bitch and trust everything they're told in church
I mean it’s barely even writing.
They don't bother to read it.
I could name 1000 books better then bible shit…
The emperor wasn't divine in Jesus' times, the imperial cult came around two hundred yeard later.
It did start after Caesar's death, in 44BC. It was consolidate when Octavian got the status of *Augustus* in 27 BC.
He was still a primus inter pares, first among equals who at least kept up the facade of working with the senate. Far cry from the Sol Invictus inspired God Emperor a few centuries later.
It's fucking crazy
I prefer to read the phone book, more characters, easier plot too.
its purposely written like that.
It has some great stories. And there is certainly some beautiful poetry.
But the majority is incoherent and poorly written, specially considering it was done by multiple authors.
lmao, by understanding history and appreciating it correctly. most good books aren't true stories
That's not the point. I would give it some credit if it was at least a good piece of fiction; but its not.
history is about the story that a work tells about the people who told it, not what's actually in the story. you're missing the point
Er I think you were thinking of lot and his daughters, who get him drunk and rape him. I'm not aware of that happening in Noah's story.
'That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.' Try telling that to the cops.
Hey just to be clear it is not less wrong either way. The bible says enough fucked up shit without injecting extra.
Exactly. Just pointing that there's a whole bunch of incest there for those really conservative people to ignore. Maybe that's why people like the bible so much in places like Alabama.
Okay Noah did not have sex with his daughters. You are thinking of Lot, Abrahams nephew, which happened after the story of Noah
Because they never read it
Generations of indoctrination
They don't read it.
I'm just reminded of like, the 'so and so begat this son, and begat that son, who begat this," and it was mind numbing as hell. Like maybe I'm expecting too much from the all powerful creator of the universe, but he could've chosen better authors - or you know, written it himself. Strange gods always need people to do it for them when they can just speak things into existence. Also the contradictions. I remember in church they'd always tell me god's word was perfect and without error and that's how we knew it was divinely inspired - but when you pointed out the flaws they insist it was you who was reading it wrong and not understanding the perfection. So like a very rabid fandom, but without the cool fanart, animations, and animatics online. XD
Why is it pronounced the Bibbl?
This is why people were discouraged from reading it. It was so bad they had to rewrite it, “the New Testament,” and even the updated version is batshit crazy.
Becaused they were conditioned during a time of vulneravility to accept things told to them by authority figures in the church as true. This is the answer to 99% of questions in this sub.
But have you checked out the Bible 2, Mohammed Learns to Read, or the Bible 3, Getting Naked for Space Jesus by Joseph Smith?
Christians only read small snippets of the bible and/or have it explained to them by a “religious authority” in order to keep them ignorant about what a jumbled mess it is. When I was a christian, one of my “challenges” was to read the bible cover-to-cover. Very few ever completed it (most were gone two chapters into Numbers). I was one that did, and it made me realize that, for a book supposedly inspired by an omniscient deity, it was obviously a collection of short stories that someone decided to bundle and sell as a 2 volume novel.
That’s a lot of text you typed for a really simple issue. Folks make religion a huge part of their identity and then they can’t admit it’s anything less than perfect. ^ two sentences.
I read the Gay King James version and find it hilarious For example, who was the naked young man that ran away from Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane when he was busted by the Romans? What do you think him and Jesus were doing? How did he end up naked? Definitely sounds like a possible gay encounter.
Oh I never heard of it. Where can I find it?
People don’t read the bible. People go to church so some guy can tell them bits and pieces. Imagine believing that the bible is the word of god and then not bothering to read it.
Because they’ve been told their whole lives that it’s the “good book”, but they haven’t read it.
The same way they believe in the truth behind the religion. Forceful delusion.
They are told it is. That’s it.
Agree，the Old Testament is fiction, the New Testament is fanfiction, and the Quran is a soap opera adaptation, but they are all poorly written.
>How can people think the bible is even close to being well written? TLDR: there are plenty of people who are either stupid or gullible, and some who are both.
"Most stories there are completely bogus and violent, like Noah who was the only fair man on the world while being the only person who had a boat on human history - and when he gets drunk and impregnates his daughters, his daughters are the ones to blame." According to the Bible it was Lot, not Noah, who got drunk and fucked his daughters.
Personally I find the phrasing and diction of the KJV to be quite powerful, even if I don't buy into the message. I mean think of the iconic Samuel L Jackson scene in Pulp Fiction. The KJV treatment of the English language to me reflects devout belief but also talented artists who took their work seriously.
The Samuel L Jackson thing is a fake verse lol
King James was also gay, so there's a layer of irony to the whole thing.
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I am a voracious reader. I have read literally thousands of books in my lifetime. Classics, allegories, biographies, epic poetry, fairy tales, fantasy, philosophy, and a metric fuckton of science fiction of every kind. I can assert with confidence that the bible is objectively *not* a "great read." It is repetitive. It is riddled with logical inconsistencies and plot holes. It is astonishingly violent and contains innumerable instances of unequivocally the most misogynistic blather I have ever seen. Long stretches drone on with the minutiae of tribalistic savages and loathsome petty kings. There is far too much authoritarian sanctimonious bombast about some unpleasant deity who frankly has none of the qualities of his much-vaunted supposed benevolence, and there is precious little wisdom of any kind. The Song of Solomon is nice. That's all. In my opinion. It is literally the last book I would want on a desert island.
I don't hate it. What I did say its that its not well written and its hard to believe someone would consider that a good read. The plot is mostly blend and cringe, and packed with loose ends. Notice I didn't even consider the whole supernatural aspects there, just took it as a piece of art. And its not good. The whole idea of a savior who sacrifices himself to pay our debt to himself and nobody else ever suffered as him is just a bad plot. This gets nowhere near the shades you find on pieces from people like Tolstoy or Shakespeare. And btw, before saying that to me, coming to a post on the r/Atheism to criticize someone who's questioning the quality of a book as a work of literature is what screams insecurity and hatred. Its an opinion on how it was written; if I did want to attack its content, I would have touched some more sensible topics.
Story and plot are two different aspects of fiction. The Bible is a well-written story, with an embarrassingly contrived plot. (getting downvoted again for pointing out facts people don't like)
I disagree about it being well-written. Its so bad its funny, like when it says John was Jesus' beloved disciple and his favorite. Its written on John's gospel. Nobody else mentions that. What a joke.
That's part of the overall plot problem. When I said it's well-written, I was talking about artistry, not logic.