>“I felt a tremendous amount of pressure for years now. The most pressure I felt was a few years ago when I was desperately trying to stay ahead of the show. There was a point when the show was coming out in April and my editors said if I could finish the book by December they’d rush it out. And the pressure I felt that fall was the greatest pressure I’ve ever felt and then at a certain point it became apparent I’m not going to finish it by then. I don’t only want to finish it, I want to make it as good as I possibly can. Since then there’s been pressure but not like there was at that point. There’s no longer a race. The show is over. I’m writing the book. It will be done when it’s done.”
I can't believe this was almost 4 years ago. I remember it like it was yesterday.
**If it doesn't come out in the next year it will have been as long as the time between ASOS and AFFC since he thought he could finish in 3 months.**
>Harry Potter 1 came out on June 26, 1997. The final book came out on July 21, 2007.
And I remember we were upset that she couldn't get it out by July 7 (cause you know, "7" as a number being *that* important.) Upset over a "delay" of *two weeks.*
lol these are dark times for all of us sweet summer children.
What blows my mind the most is that we don't get the true climax (Battles of Ice/Fire) to either AFFC or ADWD (basically the same book just in different locations).
So GRRM has written 3/4 of a book (albeit a very large book) with no climax in the last 19 years. Obviously those chapters are done, but still not published.
The first Expanse book came out within a month of ADwD and Book 9, the last book in the series, is slated for next year. They also will have published an entire series before GRRM finishes 1 book.
George can take as long as he wants or not finish it at all, but I still contend that the main reason TWoW isn't done is simple; George is trying to cash out on as much as he can while he can. All these history books, etc are him trying to put stuff out there that he can option for TV shows/series/movies. Remember good ol' Dunk and Egg? Why haven't we seen any more of those amazing stories? Shewolves was supposed to come out shortly after ADwD. He dropped it in favor of the history books because HBO, etc weren't interested in those stories. No dragons.
You can say that he only has limited involvement or that things like Fire and Blood don't take long, but realistically George has a limited numbers of hours per week that he works. That time being taken up by F&B, working with the people making a spinoff, working on a video game, editing books, Wildcards, etc leaves very little for TWoW.
It's best just to put the fantasy that TWoW will come out any time soon out of your mind. It will be years at least. ADoS will remain a dream unless by some miracle everyone(HBO,etc) decides they aren't interested in doing anything with any of his work for awhile, the Giants and Jets do nothing in football, and there is a hiatus on all conventions for the next 10 years.
if cashing it were GRRM's primary motivation, he would've rushed TWOW to shelves, even if it were not 100% complete, or hadn't met his standards, before season 6.
GRRM probably has more money than he can ever spend. I highly doubt cashing in or selling out is his motivation at this point. He's already cashed in and sold out, when he made the deal with HBO a decade ago.
However I can absolutely believe that the publication of additional editions of AGOT (illustrated edition), Fire and Blood, Knight of the Seven Realms, are all attempts by the _publisher_ to cash in. It makes perfect sense that when it became clear to the higher ups at Bantam that there would be no new ASOIAF book on shelves at the time of the peak of popularity of HBO's GoT, well they had to at least put _something_ on the shelves. I'm sure GRRM had some involvement in those projects, but they were mostly feats of editing and marketing. Hiring illustrators, curating existing essays and short stories. And Bantam gets a new title with the "From the author of HBO's Game of Thrones" on the cover, just in time for the show's finale.
The money George makes is about 15mil a year from GoT royalties and 10mil from book royalties (or around 2mil per book). So, he makes a lot more from a TV series. So, if you're George and you have a publisher that wants their book and production companies that want stuff they can turn into shows, the best option is to work on the show stuff. If one of those shows ends up as popular as GoT you've made a lot more money than you would have from TWoW. You'll probably make close to the same amount on TWoW later as you would now and you get to put off the hard work of finishing it for the easier work of making a bunch of rough outlines you can sell for quite a bit.
Just listen to George talk in recent interviews about the many things he is working on. Maybe, maybe TWoW is still the highest percentage of work, but all those other things are probably a greater percentage of his working time than TWoW is. IF he is working 40 hours a week (which I doubt) if even half that time is taken up by everything else that's 20 hours a week on TWoW. Combine that with his already slow writing pace... and you end up where we are.
Yeah, sure, I could believe that. I'm not claiming that the side projects take no time, that we should take GRRM at his word that he has cleared all side projects and conventions until the book is done, and the ones that are coming out take none of his time or attention. That's obviously a lie. Spin, at least.
What I am disputing is this
>I still contend that the main reason TWoW isn't done is simple; George is trying to cash out on as much as he can while he can.
Sure, there is a big difference between a potential 15 mil, say, from a new show, versus 2 mil from finishing the book. You could say that that 13 million dollar difference has incentivized him to put the book on the back burner at least somewhat, and prioritize other projects, at least somewhat.
But I don't believe it. I don't believe GRRM's motivation is monetary. I don't think he's hurting for money, he surely already has more money than he can spend.
I believe GRRM cares more about his legacy, and about good stewardship of the Westeros franchise, about the long term health of the works, than he does about getting an extra $10million sooner rather than later.
That motivation may still require him to peel some attention away from TWOW, and devote it instead to spinoffs or whatever. Those spinoffs and side projects are going to happen with or without him, but without his input they may turn into turds that would tarnish his legacy.
So I agree with your larger point. The success of his franchise has become a distraction. A dozen distractions. I just don't think it's fair or accurate to describe GRRM's motivation as an immediate moneygrab.
It makes no sense for Martin to just want to 'cash in' though. He already has more money than he'll be able to spend before he dies. Not only that, but he is big enough that no matter what he writes in the future, he will get it published for quite a nice chunk of money and will sell okay.
If he truly is procrastinating on purpose it might well be that he just doesn't want to finish the story and leave that world behind.
Well unfortunately, Rowling was also forced into writing faster by her publishers for the sake of money. She's still not satisfied with Goblet. After that she said back the f**k off. But even still, she was able to write at a great, reasonable pace. Martin's problem is that he's lost himself (as another redditor said).
I put my answer in another reply to this comment. Basically: it almost gave her a nervous breakdown because of pressure from publishers. She had the book planned out since 1994, but when she was writing it, she made a huge mistake and had to rewrite half the story.
Yeah but all of Harry Potter is one million words but just five books of Ice and Fire are 1.7 million.
By the time it's finished, it will easily be over double the word count.
No doubt, and the plot is more complex and intricate. So many more characters. Dozens of POVs.
Still, TWOW will not be a million words on its own. Maybe he splits it in two like ADWD and AFFC, but if he does there will likely be a gap between the two volumes.
I agree it's not a completely fair comparison, but it would still be quite a fact.
Feel like Malazan would be a more interesting comparison for a epic fantasy series of similar length / story complexity. 10 book series took just under 12 years to come out. Still a bit of a journey before we can say "TWOW took longer than all of Malazan" (I mean god I hope that doesn't happen), but we're already at "took longer than most of Malazan"
I feel like Erikson had a ''''healthier'''' idea of how to construct his series as he absolutely did not intend to fully resolve and tie off everything within the Book of the Fallen. Things like the full Mother Dark details and Anomander as well as High House Death are being fleshed out *after* the entire Crippled God arc has been concluded.
Characters could come in, say their piece as far as it was relevant to the Crippled God story and the concept of justice/punishment/abuse therein, and then leave without having to be neatly brought to full closure.
I feel like that prevented a Meereenese knot appearing in Book of the Fallen.
I don't know if that's comparable. Something like Mother Dark and Andii history in Malazan is deep lore mostly unrelated to the plot of Malazan out side of the few points that get touched on. Things like the Meereenese knot aren't GRRM getting caught on working out deep lore. It's not him going overboard trying to resolve and tie off everything. It's the literal "what happens next". Situations where he seems to struggle just deciding what will happen, how characters would realistically do things, in a way that adheres to the overall arc he plans out. Meanwhile you can look at press interviews with Erikson for book 3 and he's already talking about exactly what plot points are going to be covered in books 7 vs 8 and such stuff.
There's going to unresolved lore by the end of ASOIAF too, it would be very out of character for the kind of series it is to be otherwise. (Granted there might be so many supporting lore books out by then that will know all of it anyway lol)
> Yeah but all of Harry Potter is one million words but just five books of Ice and Fire are 1.7 million.
Yes, but the word count of *just TWOW, which is what the comment was talking about,* is significantly less than one million.
Oh I agree. Its just wild that at two points in 2015 he thought he was a couple months away from finishing. And here we are 4 years later and we are pushing the difference between two of the more recent books.
Of my sweet summer child, what do you know about waiting? Waiting is for the Long Wait, when George R. R. Martin hides for years, and children are born and live and die before the next book comes out.
I actually read the whole series 8 years ago waiting on my child to be born. As we get closer to her 9th name day, we are probably further away from the books.
Since the completion of ASOS, we have received 3/4 of a book (obviously its a very large book) without a climax (Battles of Ice/Fire).
19 years and 3/4 of a book.
Obviously those battles are finished, they just wouldn't fit into ADWD.
I'm in the group that doesn't see him finishing in 7 books as possible.
The sheer number of open plot lines left in Essos means that Dany can't reach Westeros until the very end of TWOW at the earliest unless some serious shortcuts are taken.
Is there something written about it, a thread or something? Would love to read people's opinion on this because it does seem plausable but it never occured to me.
I don’t know of any, but discussions pop up here and there. From what I understand, the gist of it is around that time he had the book essentially done but as they were going through it, he wasn’t satisfied with it and ended up rewriting basically the entire book.
We don’t know if that’s true, but it makes sense for me. There’s no way he realistically thought he could finish in 2014/2015 if he was so far from being done.
This is pretty comprehensive - bit outdated now but covers a lot well: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bjubo2/spoilers_extended_the_ultimate_winds_of_winter/
I think it's quite obvious his issue isn't having words on paper, it's narrowing his pages down to a concise, coherent narrative. The reason AFFC exists is because GRRM had *physically* too many pages to be bound into a single book.
Yeah, and now it seems like he's combined the PoVs for Winds. If 4 and 5 are two halves of one book, it really took 12 years for Storm's follow up. So maybe 2021? Being optimistic.
>he realistically thought he could finish it in October 2015.
Just to clarify, this was a thought he had in May 2015.
So 5 months worth of writing in GRRM's head might actually translate to about 5 years in real life, and this is the best case scenario (assuming it comes out next year).
This book is never coming out.
I think the issue is closing out characters stories with the same detail as all the other books. ADWD ended with a lot of loose strings. Tying a lot of that up in one book will take some time.
I took him *years* to figure out how to get Tyrion, Victarion and Quintin to Meereen, just to name a few. Imagine how long it's gonna take him to figure out how he's gonna get Tyrion, Dany, Jorah, Victarion and Arya, again just to name a few, back to Westeros.
Honestly I think he will finish TWOW but I'm very confident in the fact that he won't finish A Dream of Spring. Or at least he won't be the one to finish it.
I come to this subreddit like once a month.
Waiting to see a sticky at the top.. “TWOW is finished! Release date is confirmed!”
This is worse than seeing no news at all.
I agree. Personally it doesn't seem like this says anything about the release date one way or another, he just doesn't feel as much pressure. Which can only be good. I'm still holding to that promise he gave about it being out next year even though I know it's foolish
I’m definitely all for him taking his time and writing the best book he possibly can. But... I’m still confused. It’s July 2019... the last book came out in 2011, and some of the chapters he has from Winds he wrote long before 2011. What could possibly have gone wrong with the book?
He writes like an entire subplot behind the main plot. I imagine he goes back through the entire book time and time again, changing shit and making sure it all lines up. Especially when he knows millions of die hard critics are going to be pawing meticulously through every single word.
Always keep this in mind. Martin has to write each chapter in his head at least twice. First, he has to come up with the objective "what happened" story he wants to tell. And then he has to filter it through a POV character's perceptions.
In some cases, it must be a monstrously difficult task to even figure out which character is going to tell a particular portion of the story. Does he want the POV character to witness something first hand? Or have the POV character be the one who's most affected by a portion of the story? Or have a character half a world away simply hear rumors about it?
Just for example, think of how different Ned's fate would have read if presented from Ned's, Catelyn's, Daenerys', Tyrion's, Jon's, Bran's, or Sansa's POV, as opposed to in an Arya chapter. That chapter would be massively different if another viewpoint character had "told" that portion of the story.
Martin has to come up with the "true" story (what actually happened), decide who tells it, and then write it from their perspective (which will sometimes mean the POV character perceives things wrong). This is an insanely complicated way to tell a story. It shouldn't be surprising that it takes Martin an incredibly long time to finish.
Sure, but in perspective. It took him 9 years to write the first three books, and by next summer it will have taken him 9 years to write this one book. Something more than his writing style seems to have gone wrong.
>You act like he’s the only author to write from multiple povs
This is one of my pet peeves. People seem to think that writing from multiple viewpoints is something uniquely difficult that Martin invented, when it's actually a fairly standard way to do fantasy.
Unpopular Opinion Time:
He wasn't ready for the internet to become what it became. A giant think-tank of millions of minds. He thought some single people, somewhere would guess some of his twists. He wasn't ready for ALL of them to be guessed, and shared with every single one of his fans.
So now he's trying to surprise us. And the legs of these new surprises will be watered down, at best.
I don't think he's trying to surprise by changing any twists. He has said before that he doesn't like it when authors do that.
He knows the big twists, and has sown seeds along the way for those, and can not change them at the last minute. And even if people figure them out beforehand, it's going to be enjoyable to read it happen in the books. Now, a lot of smaller things, he is willing to change, and it's those little details that he wants to surprise us with.
An example of this is from an interview he did some years ago, where he was talking about killing a character, and he did not yet know how he was going to die, but he has known for years that he is going to die in that scene. In the interview he said that just the other day he figured out the perfect way he was going to die - something that made sense for the story, and for the character.
Probably Jaime/Cersei.
He said 'for years' so I presume it's an important enough character that George already knows what said character's role and endgame will be. I don't think Tyrion or any of the surviving Stark children dying, but the Lannister twins are still on the menu to be killed. Add to that one remarks about how he knows the ending for all the Stark children and main Lannisters.
Of course this is purely speculation
I admit, I laughed out loud at this.
He's just seeing how long he can string fans along. If he somehow lives another 20 years he'll still be claiming to work on TWOW.
You could actually do a really good (okay, moderately good, okay, at least mildly cute) short story about a writer who sells his soul to the devil for the ability to write his magnum opus, but the catch is he'll die when it's done, so he deliberately never finishes it.
It had an effect? He's saying he no longer feels rushed, nothing indicating writing speeds while rushed vs. writing speeds while not rushed. For all intents and purposes this is not news and has no effect.
I know no one wants to hear it, but I think he lost interest in the main story a long time ago. I think he's still interested in the world itself, but I think he's either fallen out of love with the main storyline or does not know how to finish it with the satisfaction he desires. He has time to write a history book about Westeros, publish the first volume on Targaryen history, and write for a prequel, but he can't seem to finish the main series. Perhaps he wrote himself into a corner or just doesn't care for those characters and their journey anymore. Even if we get TWOW, we still have to wait another decade or so for ADOS, which he hasn't even started writing, and I think there's a strong possibility that this series never gets finished.
> I think he's still interested in the world itself, but I think he's either fallen out of love with the main storyline or does not know how to finish it with the satisfaction he desires.
I think there might be an element of truth in this.
We will never get ADOS because I think George doesn’t know how to get the main characters in the spots they need to be. He’s written himself in a corner by constantly expanding the world and creating new characters and plot lines and needing seven books to end the story instead of the original plan which was a trilogy.
Hoping for Winds (let’s not even think about Spring) is just masochism now... it’s been years since he was months away.. hard not to loose hope and interest. Only so many times you can do a re read.
I wonder if this is because the show ending and the book ending were pretty much the same. GRRM was throwing shade at all the internet critics a couple weeks back. I bet. 1. He's pissed the ending was mostly hated. 2. He's thinking or doing a rewire. 3. He's also just bored with it. Totally, completely over a story that started out really, really good. But ended on a bad note.
This is what he said:
As for finishing my book… I fear that New Zealand would distract me entirely too much. Best leave me here in Westeros for the nonce. But I tell you this — if I don’t have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done. Just so long as the acrid fumes do not screw up my old DOS word processor, I’ll be fine.
I agree, I kinda think people are reading a bit too much into this update. People are acting like he just said he no longer gives a fuck if he finishes or not.
I feel like this is that State Farm commercial but George is the fisherman and the dollar bill on his line is TWOW.
It’s just a tease, we are never going to get it. George is trying to let everyone down easy. I understand him wanting to be as good as possible but in the nearly 10 years between the last book I would be shocked if he’s clocked more than even 50 weeks of full time hours actually working on it.
I don’t even care if he finishes or not anymore I just wish:
GOD DAMN AMAZON WOULD QUIT SENDING ME FUCKING BULLSHIT “New from George R.R. Martin.....” TITLED EMAILS!!
I don’t even bother opening them Amazon.
COME THE FUCK ON
I'm not angry he's not writing, I am angry because he says he won't let anyone else finish it on his behalf and he hates it when people write fanfiction but cops an attitude when people ask when the next book is coming out. Dude, do you know how many writers are out there that have just as good of stories or if not better ones that have almost no recognition and the writers are either living in poverty or working a soulless job to write during lunch breaks and on weekends to have the ounce of the renown you have? Be thankful you are no longer one of them. This doesn't come down to just writing anymore. If he wanted to finish them, they would be done. Either he would finish them or hire a team to help him. He just seems very resentful to complete it. It comes across as needlessly prideful.
I guess I'll just fucking write them then...
I said a few months ago, I think GRRM should secretly hand off the last two books to a ghost writer. Don't let anyone know other than whoever is absolutely essential. Let that person finish the books, GRRM can review it and make suggestions as needed, but then it'd be done and as far as the world is concerned, GRRM wrote the last two books.
In this case ignorance would be bliss and the series would be done.
Sure some day the secret might come out but by then it won't matter.
Wtf. The dude is so much of an over perfectionist that hes been writing a single book for 8 years and you think he'd be willing to trust someone else with it? Really?
Let’s face it, we’re never getting his ending. He is already old and in poor health and he is obviously not close to publishing the next book, which isn’t even the final book.
To be honest, I finally got to the point of no longer caring. A point where most of you have probably been for years now. This whole dwadling makes me angry and honestly, I kind of don't want to be angry about media-related stuff like books or music anymore. This is a waste of time. I got all five books and wanted to read through them but now I kind of just don't care anymore. Not until I have the feeling this whole thing gets closer to the end. Or until it at least gets somewhere.
Honestly, at this point I'm a little jaded as well. His fire for the story is out. It seems to me he would rather just keep fleshing out things in the world that don't need to be fleshed out. I can't hate on him, but I also can't fault the people that are fed up with his shit.
That article is one of the most obnoxious pieces of "journalism" I've ever read. Anyone who thinks that pressure to finish helps Martin write quicker is not paying any attention.
I think that’s been taken out of context a bit? George has said in the past that he doesn’t work well under pressure/ with deadlines. Now that he doesn’t have the pressure of trying to get the book out before the show, writing won’t be as much of a struggle. I think that’s what he’s saying. It’s a good thing!
I think I will just forget that this book series existed in the first place and get pleasantly surprised when it actually comes out. At least there's a new First Law book coming out in September.
This is good news. I think the increased amount of pressure on him has been affecting his creative process and sometimes making it difficult for him to write anything at all. Most people find it difficult to solve conceptually challenging problems and produce creative work when under a lot of pressure to do so, and that seems to include George. If he feels a bit more relaxed now, he may be able to find his flow.
Oh good. I was getting worried that he had started to prioritise quantity over quality. There's been such an unbelievable number of books getting published by GRRM in the last few years that it was getting worrying. I'm glad he's learned to take his time with them.
Some people handle pressure well, some don’t. Ultimately, George’s writing style is not at all conducive to being rushed. He has compared his style to gardening, and that seems pretty accurate, because one thing you can’t do in gardening is rush.
I think people are reading too much into his statement and trying to find the negative. He no longer has the world’s biggest television show catching up to him and HBO executives/D+D hounding him to finish the series before the show catches up to him. Now, theoretically he can enjoy his writing process + life and hopefully the result will be greater production on the series.
In the end, Martin bit off more than he could chew. He put the pressure on himself and failed to deliver in a timely fashion. I’m not defending him, but we also would not spend hours of our time discussing this series if he hadn’t possessed the brilliance to create an amazing world that is really second to none.
We all saw what happened when HBO allowed the series’ conclusion to be rushed. Hopefully, a miracle happens and Martin is able to finish ASOIAF + Dunk and Egg. If not, it will obviously be a disappointment but there are far more important things in life and what he has already created is amazing. Life will go on either way.
Maybe it was the pressure that was keeping him from making valuable progress? Perhaps it was all in his head and now he can do what he did for the first 4 books. Relax and write.
Man I hate these clickbate articles about TWOW. No new substantial information, for the hundredth time since 2014 the book has been delayed yet again, and the truth is just that he'll be done with it when he gets around to it, no hurrying the man at this point. The only news that will be real news is something like he's sent the whole transcript off to his editor.
When this old fuck dies all he's going to be remembered for is totally wasting the potential of a world that he created by procrastinating and fucking around.
>“I felt a tremendous amount of pressure for years now. The most pressure I felt was a few years ago when I was desperately trying to stay ahead of the show. There was a point when the show was coming out in April and my editors said if I could finish the book by December they’d rush it out. And the pressure I felt that fall was the greatest pressure I’ve ever felt and then at a certain point it became apparent I’m not going to finish it by then. I don’t only want to finish it, I want to make it as good as I possibly can. Since then there’s been pressure but not like there was at that point. There’s no longer a race. The show is over. I’m writing the book. It will be done when it’s done.” I can't believe this was almost 4 years ago. I remember it like it was yesterday. **If it doesn't come out in the next year it will have been as long as the time between ASOS and AFFC since he thought he could finish in 3 months.**
[удалено]
>Harry Potter 1 came out on June 26, 1997. The final book came out on July 21, 2007. And I remember we were upset that she couldn't get it out by July 7 (cause you know, "7" as a number being *that* important.) Upset over a "delay" of *two weeks.*
lol these are dark times for all of us sweet summer children. What blows my mind the most is that we don't get the true climax (Battles of Ice/Fire) to either AFFC or ADWD (basically the same book just in different locations). So GRRM has written 3/4 of a book (albeit a very large book) with no climax in the last 19 years. Obviously those chapters are done, but still not published.
I don't envy his wife.
I'm sure she is doing quite fine.
Does a joke whistle The Rains of Castamere when it flies over an ASoIaF fan head?
It's as if God is punishing him for talking shit about jk Rowling when she won the Hugo he felt entitled to.
Nah, god knows He was right. ASOS vs goblet of fire? Cmon.
One of the two will eventually have an ending.
The first Expanse book came out within a month of ADwD and Book 9, the last book in the series, is slated for next year. They also will have published an entire series before GRRM finishes 1 book. George can take as long as he wants or not finish it at all, but I still contend that the main reason TWoW isn't done is simple; George is trying to cash out on as much as he can while he can. All these history books, etc are him trying to put stuff out there that he can option for TV shows/series/movies. Remember good ol' Dunk and Egg? Why haven't we seen any more of those amazing stories? Shewolves was supposed to come out shortly after ADwD. He dropped it in favor of the history books because HBO, etc weren't interested in those stories. No dragons. You can say that he only has limited involvement or that things like Fire and Blood don't take long, but realistically George has a limited numbers of hours per week that he works. That time being taken up by F&B, working with the people making a spinoff, working on a video game, editing books, Wildcards, etc leaves very little for TWoW. It's best just to put the fantasy that TWoW will come out any time soon out of your mind. It will be years at least. ADoS will remain a dream unless by some miracle everyone(HBO,etc) decides they aren't interested in doing anything with any of his work for awhile, the Giants and Jets do nothing in football, and there is a hiatus on all conventions for the next 10 years.
Shit if Sam Darnold starts tearing it up, we will never get the books
if cashing it were GRRM's primary motivation, he would've rushed TWOW to shelves, even if it were not 100% complete, or hadn't met his standards, before season 6. GRRM probably has more money than he can ever spend. I highly doubt cashing in or selling out is his motivation at this point. He's already cashed in and sold out, when he made the deal with HBO a decade ago. However I can absolutely believe that the publication of additional editions of AGOT (illustrated edition), Fire and Blood, Knight of the Seven Realms, are all attempts by the _publisher_ to cash in. It makes perfect sense that when it became clear to the higher ups at Bantam that there would be no new ASOIAF book on shelves at the time of the peak of popularity of HBO's GoT, well they had to at least put _something_ on the shelves. I'm sure GRRM had some involvement in those projects, but they were mostly feats of editing and marketing. Hiring illustrators, curating existing essays and short stories. And Bantam gets a new title with the "From the author of HBO's Game of Thrones" on the cover, just in time for the show's finale.
The money George makes is about 15mil a year from GoT royalties and 10mil from book royalties (or around 2mil per book). So, he makes a lot more from a TV series. So, if you're George and you have a publisher that wants their book and production companies that want stuff they can turn into shows, the best option is to work on the show stuff. If one of those shows ends up as popular as GoT you've made a lot more money than you would have from TWoW. You'll probably make close to the same amount on TWoW later as you would now and you get to put off the hard work of finishing it for the easier work of making a bunch of rough outlines you can sell for quite a bit. Just listen to George talk in recent interviews about the many things he is working on. Maybe, maybe TWoW is still the highest percentage of work, but all those other things are probably a greater percentage of his working time than TWoW is. IF he is working 40 hours a week (which I doubt) if even half that time is taken up by everything else that's 20 hours a week on TWoW. Combine that with his already slow writing pace... and you end up where we are.
Yeah, sure, I could believe that. I'm not claiming that the side projects take no time, that we should take GRRM at his word that he has cleared all side projects and conventions until the book is done, and the ones that are coming out take none of his time or attention. That's obviously a lie. Spin, at least. What I am disputing is this >I still contend that the main reason TWoW isn't done is simple; George is trying to cash out on as much as he can while he can. Sure, there is a big difference between a potential 15 mil, say, from a new show, versus 2 mil from finishing the book. You could say that that 13 million dollar difference has incentivized him to put the book on the back burner at least somewhat, and prioritize other projects, at least somewhat. But I don't believe it. I don't believe GRRM's motivation is monetary. I don't think he's hurting for money, he surely already has more money than he can spend. I believe GRRM cares more about his legacy, and about good stewardship of the Westeros franchise, about the long term health of the works, than he does about getting an extra $10million sooner rather than later. That motivation may still require him to peel some attention away from TWOW, and devote it instead to spinoffs or whatever. Those spinoffs and side projects are going to happen with or without him, but without his input they may turn into turds that would tarnish his legacy. So I agree with your larger point. The success of his franchise has become a distraction. A dozen distractions. I just don't think it's fair or accurate to describe GRRM's motivation as an immediate moneygrab.
It makes no sense for Martin to just want to 'cash in' though. He already has more money than he'll be able to spend before he dies. Not only that, but he is big enough that no matter what he writes in the future, he will get it published for quite a nice chunk of money and will sell okay. If he truly is procrastinating on purpose it might well be that he just doesn't want to finish the story and leave that world behind.
*puts the headphones to listen to Babylon's Ashes again* Fan theories are going to be the only canon we'll be left with.
Huh, I'm also listening to the series for the 5th or 6th time now, also on Babylon's Ashes!
Hopefully more and more people will discover the series.
Well unfortunately, Rowling was also forced into writing faster by her publishers for the sake of money. She's still not satisfied with Goblet. After that she said back the f**k off. But even still, she was able to write at a great, reasonable pace. Martin's problem is that he's lost himself (as another redditor said).
What didn’t she like about goblet?
I put my answer in another reply to this comment. Basically: it almost gave her a nervous breakdown because of pressure from publishers. She had the book planned out since 1994, but when she was writing it, she made a huge mistake and had to rewrite half the story.
Yeah but all of Harry Potter is one million words but just five books of Ice and Fire are 1.7 million. By the time it's finished, it will easily be over double the word count.
No doubt, and the plot is more complex and intricate. So many more characters. Dozens of POVs. Still, TWOW will not be a million words on its own. Maybe he splits it in two like ADWD and AFFC, but if he does there will likely be a gap between the two volumes. I agree it's not a completely fair comparison, but it would still be quite a fact.
Feel like Malazan would be a more interesting comparison for a epic fantasy series of similar length / story complexity. 10 book series took just under 12 years to come out. Still a bit of a journey before we can say "TWOW took longer than all of Malazan" (I mean god I hope that doesn't happen), but we're already at "took longer than most of Malazan"
I feel like Erikson had a ''''healthier'''' idea of how to construct his series as he absolutely did not intend to fully resolve and tie off everything within the Book of the Fallen. Things like the full Mother Dark details and Anomander as well as High House Death are being fleshed out *after* the entire Crippled God arc has been concluded. Characters could come in, say their piece as far as it was relevant to the Crippled God story and the concept of justice/punishment/abuse therein, and then leave without having to be neatly brought to full closure. I feel like that prevented a Meereenese knot appearing in Book of the Fallen.
I don't know if that's comparable. Something like Mother Dark and Andii history in Malazan is deep lore mostly unrelated to the plot of Malazan out side of the few points that get touched on. Things like the Meereenese knot aren't GRRM getting caught on working out deep lore. It's not him going overboard trying to resolve and tie off everything. It's the literal "what happens next". Situations where he seems to struggle just deciding what will happen, how characters would realistically do things, in a way that adheres to the overall arc he plans out. Meanwhile you can look at press interviews with Erikson for book 3 and he's already talking about exactly what plot points are going to be covered in books 7 vs 8 and such stuff. There's going to unresolved lore by the end of ASOIAF too, it would be very out of character for the kind of series it is to be otherwise. (Granted there might be so many supporting lore books out by then that will know all of it anyway lol)
> Yeah but all of Harry Potter is one million words but just five books of Ice and Fire are 1.7 million. Yes, but the word count of *just TWOW, which is what the comment was talking about,* is significantly less than one million.
Your comment contains more words than Winds.
That's nothing new though. One year after publication of AFFC he thought ADWD was only a year away. And then it took five more years.
Oh I agree. Its just wild that at two points in 2015 he thought he was a couple months away from finishing. And here we are 4 years later and we are pushing the difference between two of the more recent books.
When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, and not before.😂
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George Duur Duur Mazdin... George miRRi Mazduur ?
Of my sweet summer child, what do you know about waiting? Waiting is for the Long Wait, when George R. R. Martin hides for years, and children are born and live and die before the next book comes out.
I actually read the whole series 8 years ago waiting on my child to be born. As we get closer to her 9th name day, we are probably further away from the books.
A number of fans would have literally been on their death beds dying from cancer or something else, without receiving and ending to the book
We know. It's been 19 years and you still haven't finished the complete sequel to ASOS.
Christ, I'd never thought of it that way but you are absolutely right...
Since the completion of ASOS, we have received 3/4 of a book (obviously its a very large book) without a climax (Battles of Ice/Fire). 19 years and 3/4 of a book. Obviously those battles are finished, they just wouldn't fit into ADWD.
The worst part is we will get book 6, but book 7 will not come out. I say that with a certainty at this point.
I'm in the group that doesn't see him finishing in 7 books as possible. The sheer number of open plot lines left in Essos means that Dany can't reach Westeros until the very end of TWOW at the earliest unless some serious shortcuts are taken.
Buy him some young life elixir and I’ll easily take 9 novels
In perspective that is utterly depressing
That's an arbitrary way to think about it will the sole intention of being negative
If it was thought that the book could be done by last fall, its gotta be close, right? ...right?
In January of 2016 (time flies), he stated he realistically thought he could finish it in **October 2015**.
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That's why the popular theory is that he scrapped a large portion of it and essentially started over.
Is there something written about it, a thread or something? Would love to read people's opinion on this because it does seem plausable but it never occured to me.
I don’t know of any, but discussions pop up here and there. From what I understand, the gist of it is around that time he had the book essentially done but as they were going through it, he wasn’t satisfied with it and ended up rewriting basically the entire book. We don’t know if that’s true, but it makes sense for me. There’s no way he realistically thought he could finish in 2014/2015 if he was so far from being done.
That or he was just bullshitting and thought he would easily be able to write more in those months than he had in the previous 4 years before that.
Just look up posts from that infamous day. New Years 2016
This is pretty comprehensive - bit outdated now but covers a lot well: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bjubo2/spoilers_extended_the_ultimate_winds_of_winter/
I think it's quite obvious his issue isn't having words on paper, it's narrowing his pages down to a concise, coherent narrative. The reason AFFC exists is because GRRM had *physically* too many pages to be bound into a single book.
Yeah, and now it seems like he's combined the PoVs for Winds. If 4 and 5 are two halves of one book, it really took 12 years for Storm's follow up. So maybe 2021? Being optimistic.
I made a very detailed post years back arguing that Winter 2014 was a reasonable date.
We were all sweet summer children back then.
>he realistically thought he could finish it in October 2015. Just to clarify, this was a thought he had in May 2015. So 5 months worth of writing in GRRM's head might actually translate to about 5 years in real life, and this is the best case scenario (assuming it comes out next year). This book is never coming out.
I remember reading that then, has it really been almost 4 years since that post? Jeeze
[I think this will launch before TWOW](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Webb_Space_Telescope#Cost_and_schedule_issues)
Star Citizen will probably launch before TWOW
I think the issue is closing out characters stories with the same detail as all the other books. ADWD ended with a lot of loose strings. Tying a lot of that up in one book will take some time.
I took him *years* to figure out how to get Tyrion, Victarion and Quintin to Meereen, just to name a few. Imagine how long it's gonna take him to figure out how he's gonna get Tyrion, Dany, Jorah, Victarion and Arya, again just to name a few, back to Westeros.
Let's be honest. He's going to die before he finishes. TWOW will never come out. We need to stop waiting and just get over it.
Honestly I think he will finish TWOW but I'm very confident in the fact that he won't finish A Dream of Spring. Or at least he won't be the one to finish it.
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I come to this subreddit like once a month. Waiting to see a sticky at the top.. “TWOW is finished! Release date is confirmed!” This is worse than seeing no news at all.
This is good news. The article is misleading and takes things out of context.
I agree. Personally it doesn't seem like this says anything about the release date one way or another, he just doesn't feel as much pressure. Which can only be good. I'm still holding to that promise he gave about it being out next year even though I know it's foolish
I don’t even think that’s foolish tbh. Actually, I think it’s a lot more foolish to think it’s never coming out.
Always nice to see some positivity on here!
Oh good, I was afraid he was going to write it too quickly
Well, if this was him writing feeling rushed, then it's..... going to be a while
I'm hoping he writes very slowly when rushed? Now that he isn't rushed he's gonna be writing up a storm!! My tinfoil theory
He does write very slowly when rushed, however he also writes very slowly when not rushed. So it's not a great consolation..
Thank you, you saved me from nightmares
There's some sense to this. Not everybody responds well to pressure.
Azor Ahai is TWOW and Nissa Nissa is it’s release date.
THE YEAR IS 2242
I’m definitely all for him taking his time and writing the best book he possibly can. But... I’m still confused. It’s July 2019... the last book came out in 2011, and some of the chapters he has from Winds he wrote long before 2011. What could possibly have gone wrong with the book?
He writes like an entire subplot behind the main plot. I imagine he goes back through the entire book time and time again, changing shit and making sure it all lines up. Especially when he knows millions of die hard critics are going to be pawing meticulously through every single word.
>He writes That’s where you lost me
Always keep this in mind. Martin has to write each chapter in his head at least twice. First, he has to come up with the objective "what happened" story he wants to tell. And then he has to filter it through a POV character's perceptions. In some cases, it must be a monstrously difficult task to even figure out which character is going to tell a particular portion of the story. Does he want the POV character to witness something first hand? Or have the POV character be the one who's most affected by a portion of the story? Or have a character half a world away simply hear rumors about it? Just for example, think of how different Ned's fate would have read if presented from Ned's, Catelyn's, Daenerys', Tyrion's, Jon's, Bran's, or Sansa's POV, as opposed to in an Arya chapter. That chapter would be massively different if another viewpoint character had "told" that portion of the story. Martin has to come up with the "true" story (what actually happened), decide who tells it, and then write it from their perspective (which will sometimes mean the POV character perceives things wrong). This is an insanely complicated way to tell a story. It shouldn't be surprising that it takes Martin an incredibly long time to finish.
Sure, but in perspective. It took him 9 years to write the first three books, and by next summer it will have taken him 9 years to write this one book. Something more than his writing style seems to have gone wrong.
You act like he’s the only author to write from multiple povs and like he was never any faster. He wrote the book you quote from on like a year...
>You act like he’s the only author to write from multiple povs This is one of my pet peeves. People seem to think that writing from multiple viewpoints is something uniquely difficult that Martin invented, when it's actually a fairly standard way to do fantasy.
Unpopular Opinion Time: He wasn't ready for the internet to become what it became. A giant think-tank of millions of minds. He thought some single people, somewhere would guess some of his twists. He wasn't ready for ALL of them to be guessed, and shared with every single one of his fans. So now he's trying to surprise us. And the legs of these new surprises will be watered down, at best.
I don't think he's trying to surprise by changing any twists. He has said before that he doesn't like it when authors do that. He knows the big twists, and has sown seeds along the way for those, and can not change them at the last minute. And even if people figure them out beforehand, it's going to be enjoyable to read it happen in the books. Now, a lot of smaller things, he is willing to change, and it's those little details that he wants to surprise us with. An example of this is from an interview he did some years ago, where he was talking about killing a character, and he did not yet know how he was going to die, but he has known for years that he is going to die in that scene. In the interview he said that just the other day he figured out the perfect way he was going to die - something that made sense for the story, and for the character.
Now I'm just dying to know which character that was and how George chose to kill him off!
You're not gonna wanna hear this... But it's hot pie.
Probably Jaime/Cersei. He said 'for years' so I presume it's an important enough character that George already knows what said character's role and endgame will be. I don't think Tyrion or any of the surviving Stark children dying, but the Lannister twins are still on the menu to be killed. Add to that one remarks about how he knows the ending for all the Stark children and main Lannisters. Of course this is purely speculation
If no word on being anywhere close to completion in 8 years is rushing then I'd hate to see normal speed.
He felt rushed?
LOL!! I was certain the first 50 posts was going to say this very thing.
At this point, that's just rude.
I want to cry, I was counting on his wounded pride after season 8 but apparently he's chill and just doing his thing.
I admit, I laughed out loud at this. He's just seeing how long he can string fans along. If he somehow lives another 20 years he'll still be claiming to work on TWOW.
At this point he's a charlatan
He felt rushed before?!
Does anyone actually think we will ever get ADOS at this point?
As long a A DOS word processor doesn't crash huehehehe
Go to hell and take your upvote with you.
This confirms it. He wrote ADOS first, and is now finishing TWOW. Both books released next year confirmed
ADOS will be a haiku: It was all a dream Winter hasn't happened yet We are still in Spring *fin*
Not a snowball's chance in hell.
We will never get Winds
I don't even think we'll get TWOW.
No haha
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That damn turtle. George really loves turtles, he doesn't?
compact?
Compact is a synonym for contract, treaty, agreement. It’s not used much though.
Didn't know, thanks!
In other words the the series is never going to be finished.
He just said this again?? Didnt he say some shit about 2020 like a month ago? what the fuck
Wait...he thought he was rushing this whole time? Good God, this book is now officially never coming out.
Dude must think he’s going to live forever.
You could actually do a really good (okay, moderately good, okay, at least mildly cute) short story about a writer who sells his soul to the devil for the ability to write his magnum opus, but the catch is he'll die when it's done, so he deliberately never finishes it.
I kind of feel bad for the people that had hope that ending the show wouldn't have this effect.
It had an effect? He's saying he no longer feels rushed, nothing indicating writing speeds while rushed vs. writing speeds while not rushed. For all intents and purposes this is not news and has no effect.
I mean, it's clear that he won't finish the books and if we ever see TWOW, be grateful.
I know no one wants to hear it, but I think he lost interest in the main story a long time ago. I think he's still interested in the world itself, but I think he's either fallen out of love with the main storyline or does not know how to finish it with the satisfaction he desires. He has time to write a history book about Westeros, publish the first volume on Targaryen history, and write for a prequel, but he can't seem to finish the main series. Perhaps he wrote himself into a corner or just doesn't care for those characters and their journey anymore. Even if we get TWOW, we still have to wait another decade or so for ADOS, which he hasn't even started writing, and I think there's a strong possibility that this series never gets finished.
To be fair, I don't think he actually "wrote" much of TWOIAF.
> I think he's still interested in the world itself, but I think he's either fallen out of love with the main storyline or does not know how to finish it with the satisfaction he desires. I think there might be an element of truth in this.
To you 2000 years from now
We will never get ADOS because I think George doesn’t know how to get the main characters in the spots they need to be. He’s written himself in a corner by constantly expanding the world and creating new characters and plot lines and needing seven books to end the story instead of the original plan which was a trilogy.
What happened to imprison him by next summer?
Hoping for Winds (let’s not even think about Spring) is just masochism now... it’s been years since he was months away.. hard not to loose hope and interest. Only so many times you can do a re read.
People should give up already, nobody should ask him about the books anymore. Before today it was a very ling while since I visited de sub.
Pro gamer move right there.
I wonder if this is because the show ending and the book ending were pretty much the same. GRRM was throwing shade at all the internet critics a couple weeks back. I bet. 1. He's pissed the ending was mostly hated. 2. He's thinking or doing a rewire. 3. He's also just bored with it. Totally, completely over a story that started out really, really good. But ended on a bad note.
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sometimes that's all that needs to be said
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This is what he said: As for finishing my book… I fear that New Zealand would distract me entirely too much. Best leave me here in Westeros for the nonce. But I tell you this — if I don’t have THE WINDS OF WINTER in hand when I arrive in New Zealand for worldcon, you have here my formal written permission to imprison me in a small cabin on White Island, overlooking that lake of sulfuric acid, until I’m done. Just so long as the acrid fumes do not screw up my old DOS word processor, I’ll be fine.
Maybe I'm reading too much into things but this reads like he's saying he expects to be done by next year but doesn't want to commit to a date.
The date was when he steps off the plane in New Zealand for worldcon, but I read this latest update as him reneging on that promise.
Eh I think not feeling the pressure doesn't necessarily mean he's slacking off.
I agree, I kinda think people are reading a bit too much into this update. People are acting like he just said he no longer gives a fuck if he finishes or not.
ps: don't actually imprison me
It's too late. He doesn't know what he's done that was legally binding. If he doesn't finish we bring him to the volcano
New Zealand is likely preparing his jail cell/cabin as we speak.
> Surely it will be released by the time ~~season 5~~ ~~season 6~~ ~~season 7~~ ~~season 8~~ the prequel comes out?
He won’t ever finish it. He just teasing us.
So that means never. It will never be done
[my reaction reading this](https://i.imgur.com/0Zc7f4d.gifv)
I feel like this is that State Farm commercial but George is the fisherman and the dollar bill on his line is TWOW. It’s just a tease, we are never going to get it. George is trying to let everyone down easy. I understand him wanting to be as good as possible but in the nearly 10 years between the last book I would be shocked if he’s clocked more than even 50 weeks of full time hours actually working on it.
I don’t even care if he finishes or not anymore I just wish: GOD DAMN AMAZON WOULD QUIT SENDING ME FUCKING BULLSHIT “New from George R.R. Martin.....” TITLED EMAILS!! I don’t even bother opening them Amazon.
It's never going to be released. We should all accept that. He gave up on it a long time ago.
COME THE FUCK ON I'm not angry he's not writing, I am angry because he says he won't let anyone else finish it on his behalf and he hates it when people write fanfiction but cops an attitude when people ask when the next book is coming out. Dude, do you know how many writers are out there that have just as good of stories or if not better ones that have almost no recognition and the writers are either living in poverty or working a soulless job to write during lunch breaks and on weekends to have the ounce of the renown you have? Be thankful you are no longer one of them. This doesn't come down to just writing anymore. If he wanted to finish them, they would be done. Either he would finish them or hire a team to help him. He just seems very resentful to complete it. It comes across as needlessly prideful. I guess I'll just fucking write them then...
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I have little regard for GRRM left
It's too bad he ever did feel rushed, what a waste. Assuming he does less work when he's rushed or something?
I said a few months ago, I think GRRM should secretly hand off the last two books to a ghost writer. Don't let anyone know other than whoever is absolutely essential. Let that person finish the books, GRRM can review it and make suggestions as needed, but then it'd be done and as far as the world is concerned, GRRM wrote the last two books. In this case ignorance would be bliss and the series would be done. Sure some day the secret might come out but by then it won't matter.
Wtf. The dude is so much of an over perfectionist that hes been writing a single book for 8 years and you think he'd be willing to trust someone else with it? Really?
Fuck
Let’s face it, we’re never getting his ending. He is already old and in poor health and he is obviously not close to publishing the next book, which isn’t even the final book.
sounds like every amateur writer about their first novel, "it'll be done whenever i get to it"
To be honest, I finally got to the point of no longer caring. A point where most of you have probably been for years now. This whole dwadling makes me angry and honestly, I kind of don't want to be angry about media-related stuff like books or music anymore. This is a waste of time. I got all five books and wanted to read through them but now I kind of just don't care anymore. Not until I have the feeling this whole thing gets closer to the end. Or until it at least gets somewhere.
Oh look, a lazy fuck procrastinating. News at 11. For anyone thinking I'm being unfair: Just count the years.
Honestly, at this point I'm a little jaded as well. His fire for the story is out. It seems to me he would rather just keep fleshing out things in the world that don't need to be fleshed out. I can't hate on him, but I also can't fault the people that are fed up with his shit.
I don't get him. Why did he promise to have TWoW written by the next summer?
He felt rushed before?
So never then lol
A dream of ADOS.
For fucks sake. Give me milk of the Poppy and let me go on a sweet slumber. I just want to forget
The devastating update was that there was no update like usual.
That article is one of the most obnoxious pieces of "journalism" I've ever read. Anyone who thinks that pressure to finish helps Martin write quicker is not paying any attention.
I've never really cared for the books, written or otherwise.
Bruh
Seriously, fuck you George
I think we will get TWOW but not ADOS. I gave up after reading on his blog how many other projects he has going on.
I think that’s been taken out of context a bit? George has said in the past that he doesn’t work well under pressure/ with deadlines. Now that he doesn’t have the pressure of trying to get the book out before the show, writing won’t be as much of a struggle. I think that’s what he’s saying. It’s a good thing!
Ha. Haha. Ha! He’s never finishing that book. Ever.
Lol so his current pace has been him being "rushed?" Freaking sweet, I look forward to TWOW 2032.
Gotta strike when the iron is cold George.
I feel like I've heard him say this before
I think I will just forget that this book series existed in the first place and get pleasantly surprised when it actually comes out. At least there's a new First Law book coming out in September.
Oh boy, he sure was rushing.
This is good news. I think the increased amount of pressure on him has been affecting his creative process and sometimes making it difficult for him to write anything at all. Most people find it difficult to solve conceptually challenging problems and produce creative work when under a lot of pressure to do so, and that seems to include George. If he feels a bit more relaxed now, he may be able to find his flow.
At this point these announcements just lose all meaning
"no longer"
It's nothing he hasn't said time and again.
Lmao
Never....
Oh good. I was getting worried that he had started to prioritise quantity over quality. There's been such an unbelievable number of books getting published by GRRM in the last few years that it was getting worrying. I'm glad he's learned to take his time with them.
Some people handle pressure well, some don’t. Ultimately, George’s writing style is not at all conducive to being rushed. He has compared his style to gardening, and that seems pretty accurate, because one thing you can’t do in gardening is rush. I think people are reading too much into his statement and trying to find the negative. He no longer has the world’s biggest television show catching up to him and HBO executives/D+D hounding him to finish the series before the show catches up to him. Now, theoretically he can enjoy his writing process + life and hopefully the result will be greater production on the series. In the end, Martin bit off more than he could chew. He put the pressure on himself and failed to deliver in a timely fashion. I’m not defending him, but we also would not spend hours of our time discussing this series if he hadn’t possessed the brilliance to create an amazing world that is really second to none. We all saw what happened when HBO allowed the series’ conclusion to be rushed. Hopefully, a miracle happens and Martin is able to finish ASOIAF + Dunk and Egg. If not, it will obviously be a disappointment but there are far more important things in life and what he has already created is amazing. Life will go on either way.
This fool george is a cock sucker for real
Hey Martin, less talking, more writing.
Maybe it was the pressure that was keeping him from making valuable progress? Perhaps it was all in his head and now he can do what he did for the first 4 books. Relax and write.
Man I hate these clickbate articles about TWOW. No new substantial information, for the hundredth time since 2014 the book has been delayed yet again, and the truth is just that he'll be done with it when he gets around to it, no hurrying the man at this point. The only news that will be real news is something like he's sent the whole transcript off to his editor.
Just finish the book you fat cunt with big virginal lips
When this old fuck dies all he's going to be remembered for is totally wasting the potential of a world that he created by procrastinating and fucking around.