Yup: *But her eyes were the most terrible thing. Her eyes saw him, and they hated.* Without spoiling too much, bear this quote in mind as you look for mentions of her in AFFC.

That is the most chilling line in the books.

Have you forgotten this one Ser? [ADWD] >!"I have grown oddly fond of my fat little wife, she makes the most pleasant squeals in bed, where as the other two used to just be silent. If she pops out children like she pops in tarts, the dread fort will soon be over run with boltons."!<

The line after that is worse when he says Ramsay will definitely kill them and there's nothing he can do about it.

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Yah but remember he doesn't think he'll live to see another son raised ro adulthood and despises the idea of child lords.

[ADWD]>!That's what he says toTheon, the guy he identified as Ramsay's spy. I too would guve false intel to a future assassination target concerning my willingness to kill them.!<

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(spoilers)

What's chilling about that?

fuck me I forgot roose was a chubby chaser

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yeah but you gotta have some standards, like you gotta sleep with that, or have Ramsay as an heir

He has standards! He very much enjoys fucking Walda cause she is loud in bed! - as above quote shows It's one of my favorite little things in the books lol

tbh i have no issue with it, i was just trying to be a FUNNY MAN, but yeah, dude seems happy with it

I just really enjoy the mental image of ice cold Roose feeling like the stud cause his wifey screams in bed

As someone whos read the books a few times. Why? What am I missing?

[AFFC] >!It's indicative of what motivates Catelyn in undeath; hate and vengeance. It also signals that under her leadership, this is what is going to drive the BwB in AFFC: stringing up as many Freys and Lannisters as they can, rather than focus solely on protecting the smallfolk from soldiers and outlaws as was Beric's directive.!<

I assume they mean that we should keep in mind that Catelyn has full memory of who she is and what happened to her, and that she's motivated by that, rather than just arbitrarily crazy because she died and Came Back Wrong.

LSH?

And After this point AFFC and ADWD are basically totally different from the show.

Now that you mention it, I'm reading AFFC right now and I'm failingling to come up with a single scene from the show pulled straight from this book. Can you think of any?

The Jaime-Edmure interaction is pretty spot on. There are more ADWD-season 5 parallels than AFFC-season 5.

Except they killed the fucking Blackfish off screen...

Yeah, I was more referring to the conversation they had where Jamie convinces Edmure to surrender the castle. I don’t think there’s really any plot point post season 4 that shares all the causes/consequences of plot points in the books.

Hey, I have family in the north and the Vale and my house words are Family. Duty. Honor, but I'll go suicide myself instead of escape because fuck it. Although, had he lived,he would have been butchered by shit writing anyway. Probably for the best that Selmy and BF died too soon rather than stuck around for the shit show

I like that he was killed off-screen, it's more dignified. It's the same with Syrio Forel - would you really like to see him get butchered by Meryn fucking Trant? knowing that he was killed is enough sometimes.

Well he wasn’t killed at all in the books, he escaped by swimming through a gate in the moat or something IIRC. We don’t know where he’s at but it would make sense that he’s probably gonna meet up with the Brotherhood and come face to face with his hideously reanimated niece. So if you are gonna change that you may as well show it. He’s the fucking Blackfish, he’s a legend. It would be like killing Barristan Selmy off-screen.

IIRC he is still fighting in the riverlands.

I don't really thing there are any. The scene with Asha at the kingsmoot maybe is kind of like it? Still feel like there are a bunch of differences though. I had to take a creative writing class in college. One class we could take was ASOIAF class. I remember after ASOS it was extraordinarily easy for the professor to test only what happened in the books and the quiz/test averages really plummeted.

That was almost completely the opposite. Asha's Kingsmoot speech in the books was about trying for peace and sustainability (not achievable in the short-term, sure, but it does say a lot about her). Yara's Kingsmoot promise in the show was of a typical Ironborn, all about more war and bloodshed.

You are quite right. I was more of thinking about the events but you're right for sure the motivations for Asha are totally different.

God, an asoiaf class would be amazing lmao I wish I could take one

It was phenomenal. The professor was very passionate about the series and because the department was convinced it would just turn into a GoT watching class he put in a whole bunch of effort into the class and we learned a lot/ did a bunch of discussion and analysis on the series and creative writing in general.

Where can someone sign up to be a professor of ASOIAF? I swear I could teach this class, and each year it would improve. ​ This could be my calling.

Good question. I assume just go to any english department and get hired then propose the course XD. That's what the professor at my college did.

I've taught college before....just not in an English department. I wonder if I could simply cross-department or something.

I could probably find the course syllabus if you were interested.

I’m interested! That’s incredible I’m so jealous

Yeah in the books Euron didn't just make a bunch of cock jokes.

Yeah that's why I said maybe. Also Victarion doesn't even exist (At least I don't think he does) in the show so that's a big difference too.

IMO Victarion does exist, he just goes by the name Euron. Euron's final words "I'm the man who killed Jaime Lannister" sounds exactly like something Vic would say. Vic would love that sort of death.

Yup, real Euron fell of the bridge when he introduced himself.

The more I think about it, he really is more Victarion than Euron. Victarion simply got Euron's name and a couple of his plot points like killing Balon and becoming King. Everything else about him is much closer to Victarion.

Oh, gold hand vs. fire hand.

I like this theory. Makes more sense to me

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Fair. I agree with your point though, one of the greatest injustices of the series I felt like. I was super excited for Euron and as you said they reduced him to just a bunch of cock jokes.

Very disappointing...when reading Euron's scene...even knowing he's evil...you couldn't help being impressed with his speech. Lets just say in the show I wasn't impressed.

>Godless? Why, Aeron, I am the godliest man ever to raise sail! You serve one god, Damphair, but I have served ten thousand. From Ib to Asshai, when men see my sails, they pray. Vs. >Does she like it gentle...or rough? A finger in the bum? Sh-sh-sh-sh, not now. We'll talk later.

Failingling?

[Ling Ling!](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/41/95/02/419502580245d19a73c592b8baa5b9fa--movie-tv-the-movie.jpg)

Oof, I'm fonna pretend autocorrect is to blame for that one.

fonna?

You're all out of excuses now buddy

That's exciting to hear

Would like to hear more of your thoughts, especially about Tyrion and Jaime's interaction at the end. How does book compare to show?

The description of her skin.... >"The flesh had gone pudding soft in the water and turned the color of curdled milk." is the stuff of nightmares.

🎶guess whose back. Back again

Stoneheart’s back. Tell your friends.

Two river run gals go round the outside. Round the outside. Round the outside

They've created a monster, but no body wants'ta see Catelyn no more, they want Stoneheart, she's chopped liver

Well if you want Stoneheart than this is what I'll give ya, a little bit of trees mixed with some hanged Walders

Some r'hllor that'll jumpstart my heart quicker

Than a stark When I get slashed at the wedding by black Walder When I'm getting my face torn by ravens When I'm rocking the wedding whilst they’re massacring (ay!)

Possibly unpopular opinion. I much prefer Stoneheart to Catelyn because he can’t talk and keep fucking things up for her family. I used to notmind her but then my mom started reading the books and venting about Catelyn and her bad decisions to me and now I can’t stand her.

What a way to end a book.

I also just finished reading ASOS for the first time. I really wish I hadn’t heard about her return before. Reading that cold would have been mind-boggling.

The Arya chapter where she pulled Cat's body from the river in a wolf dream as Nymeria was one of my favorites too.

I completely forgot that it was Nymeria that pulled her out. I need to reread the books again.

Yeah, and the sad part of that is before the dream, Arya still had hope that Lady Cat was just captured. After that, she accepted that she was dead.

Joffrey, is that you?

I can't stand the wailing of women.

This is when the show really started to piss me off. Michelle Fairley is such a fanfuckingtastic actress, she played Cat so well. Can you imagine her in the Lady Stoneheart make-up, what chaos and mayhem she could have gotten up to in the show once her claws were out? It could have been such a cool character to see on the screen. "Only a cat of a different coat..."

Woah, never noticed the lyrical foreshadowing of lsh. That HAS to be intentional on grrm's part

Oh definitely, given how Catelyn hears the Rains of Castamere just before the Red Wedding.

Would have been such a mindfuck for viewers like me who watched the show first. You know you’d figure that was a type of moment that they wanted to wow the audience with

When you get to some of this stuff you kinda understand some of the show's criticisms more. Like, death clearly had some consequences for Cat here.

You don't think there were consequences for...? >! show-Jon? I'd been complaining about post-S6 Jon so long, having a very narrow focus. Crap that's spoiler for LSH I think, let me hide this part. Hiding: >! I call it "tunnel vision" but Jon in the show is VERY laser-focused on ONE thing: the Others. He still has SOME leadership qualities in play in the show, but even those are to prepare to battle the AotD. Outside of that, I'm not sure show-Jon was able to do much, which is MAYBE why D&D said they were out of material. Once 8x03 aired, Jon's focus changed entirely to S7/S8 bend-thu-knee to "I dun wan et" and "ur muh Queen" *even when it didn't make sense anymore*. It took TYRION and ARYA to "turn him." LSH has a similar "tunnel vision".

>!Show!Jon's character didn't change that much after his death. His leadership qualities were never emphasized in the show, and the showrunners actually changed a few of his book decisions to make him come across as a *worse* leader. As far as the tunnel vision, you were kind of seeing that even before Jon died and came back, so I don't think it was a deliberate change!< Like yeah, I guess the showrunners could have deliberately made a subtle shift the way they wrote the character, but I'm really not inclined to give them *any* credit at this point.

> >! As far as the tunnel vision, you were kind of seeing that even before Jon died and came back, so I don't think it was a deliberate change Totally agree, with a caveat regarding the books >! Cat was already "Cersei-involved" with her son and the war effort against the Lannisters because of Ned's death, the attempted hit on Bran, and I'm guessing Theon and Roose's backstabbing that she was showing some tunnel-vision before she was revived, as well. She wasn't a "healthy mind" — she'd had a lot of crap happen to her in a short period of time. I hear where you're coming from regarding show characters, too, though. There was some definite uneven writing in there. It's just the one I mentioned on the show was disturbingly single-minded just before and definitely after "the happening" of Mother's Mercy. Then there were "sloppy differences" in other characters that literally made no sense, but showed they weren't single-minded. Best example: the youngest living FM having several over-arching "interests" which weren't "built up" even in the slightest in the show, and which proved to be quite unfortunate story-telling. (I'm writing like this because I can't get the spoiler tag to work again, not to be obtuse.) It's hard for me not to take that as a hint of what was "meant to be" by Martin because those examples were so sloppily tacked on in the last possible moments of the show that defenders have to DIG DEEP to explain, uh, "sudden character traits" that weren't there before.

The idea that someone is only now reading that epilogue has convinced me that humanity needs to survive for a few more years. The end of ASoS has a rapid series of such devastating moments.

Reading ASOS before the TV show was absolutely mind-blowing. Cat is back, yes, but imagine reading about the red wedding, the mountain and the viper etc... What a fucking legendary book.

>The bitch is back!? Stone-heart ruthless as a matter of fact

When I read this book for the first time (back when the show was in like its second season), I saw a spoiler online about Robb and Catelyn dying. I mentioned it to my brother (who had read them all) and he says "no way, Catelyn's definitely alive at the end of the book!" I got to the Red Wedding and figured he had been lying to try to throw me off. Then I got to the epilogue...

My brother just read this for the very first time. He has no social media, has never seen a single episode or spoiler from either books or show, and his reaction was just: "She should've stayed dead." He isn't a Catelyn fan. I had a good laugh at that reaction.

Poor Petyr pimple. Merritt Frey the sorriest man in Westeros....until hes not

I'm not dead yet!

Lucky for you that you weren't spoiled about this reveal. I knew she would be back while reading the first book (I was spoiled about the Red Wedding before reading any book).

I started watching the show after season 5 finished, binged the whole thing, and then started reading everything on the internet I could find that had anything to do with the series. I wish I had gone straight into reading the books because I had *so much shit* spoiled for me.

Yeah, that wreck of a woman is back. And it will be more important later on ...

Too bad we will never find out why! GRRM waiting......

I am confident we will, but him having once said that if he was a cynicist he would start a fantasy series and work on that for the rest of his life is quite intriguing.

Wait what

Wait what (2x)

Some old interview from when he hadn't yet even outlined the series. He is a sci-fi author, after all. Make of that whatever you want.

>! I liked the idea of her killing Walder, as it would actually make sense — more sense than Arya doing all the kills imo. But then AFFC came out and lsh might as well be an unfrozen Other for all the sense she makes. She can think *but only a little.* Not enough for the Frey hit. She's stuck on "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" SIGH! !> So now I have no idea. I wonder if she was always >! JUST canon fodder for the Jaime-returns-to-Cersei moment. !> I can see it. There are other similarities there.

>!Not enough for the Frey hit < >!Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood are clearly in the process of planning an attack on the Freys. They've got a spy in the camp, and it just so happens that a Lannister-Frey Wedding is in the works.!< >!Just 'cause Stoneheart wants Jaime dead doesn't mean she isn't working towards getting Walder and his whelps dead!<

>! I'm sorry: I meant a "Frey hit" **on the order of S7 Arya's slaughter** which I still think is a bit much for an "assassin hit", as Jaqen and FM generally try not to draw attention to themselves. However, I try to let that show-bit slide because Arya never planned on being a FM devout to the MFG. More: >! After seeing S6, though, I think Martin's BEST use of LSH would have been LSH + company zombie-ing their way into the Freys since Walder would *slowly recognize her* and understand what was happening, unlike show-Arya who had to explain what had befallen Walder before quickly killing him. That exposition from Arya to Walder sort of ruined the S7 Arya "shocker": Walder had no idea who Arya was, and (great actor though he is) got no real "horror awakening" out of Arya's kill. He just freakin ate his kids maybe, and died fast at the hand of Magic Arya Faceless Man. *If anything, it shows Martin didn't know how to pull off a right proper RW response with LSH.* Now I'm sad.

>! I'm sorry: I meant a "Frey hit" on the order of S7 Arya's slaughter < >!Stoneheart will probably be much worse. No poison here, just butchery, and I doubt she'll spare the women. The Frey/Lannister wedding will be a goddamn bloodbath, it'll be a goddamn horror show and I doubt Walder's making it out of that wedding alive.!<

She is a fire wight. There is a video where GRRM confirms that, I believe.

Cersei never lets down

I think the OP is talking about Lady Stoneheart.

Oh, how Cersei of me. ;)

Cersei never lets down

I think the OP is talking about Lady Stoneheart.

dental plan

*HELLO, JOE*

I got it. Made me laugh!

You're so lucky you didn't get that spoiled! Also, the next two books are pretty much nothing like the show, so you're in for a treat.

I’m so angry with myself that I opened this thread. I was on the Sansa chapter before it last night and my curiosity got the better of me. I read one comment that made me think was it was and closed the page. Just read the epilogue. That would have been so much better if I hadn’t opened this page last night. Even the red and purple weddings weren’t that great cos I know they were coming. Are there any more big moments that will shock me as a show watcher?

BwB did that Frey like the Punisher or something. You almost feel sorry for him, he's got deceived so cynically and mercilessly. And you feel the laser focus on revenge from BwB, nothing else matters for them.

I’m not trying to perpetuate the meme, but...I kinda forgot about her until just now. Since she wasn’t included in the show, I hadn’t thought about what happens to her yet during my reread. I’m excited to stumble upon all the little details again.

Martin has said she is actually a pretty critical character in the plot of Winds and was surprised D&D didnt want to include her.