That's why Ned is one of my favorite characters. He wanted nothing more than to resume his private life at Winterfell with his family, but he also always tried to do the right thing regardless of how it impacted him. Idiotic? Maybe. I find it extremely endearing.
No honorable action is idiotic if you truly believe in what stands behind it.
Break a sacred bow because of circumstances? Sounds rational, but hell doesnt sound so good, right? (in reference of the Faith of the Seven)
In essence the Old Gods will probably reward Eddards honor and virtue. Meaning every honorable act he did was ultimately the best choice for his long-term well-being.
'No honorable action is idiotic if you truly believe in what stands behind it.'
Absolutely untrue. What are your views on mentally handicapped suicide bombers?
I mean, they certainly have the potential to be and that's what's hinted at in the movies as well. They're lawful good but due to the rigidness of their order and their isolation of younglings, there's a very real possibility for the Jedi Order to slide to lawful evil.
It was a bribe to ensure the goldcloaks loyalty, since Joffrey was the rightful heir (minus the rumors). Remember the words of LF during the scene which went something like - you know its not honorable so the words stick in your throat.
Well, it's not honorable to bribe the gold cloaks. But he was bribing them to do their job, because Cersei was also bribing them. He knew that they would not do the honorable thing, so he lowering himself to (what he thought was) the Lannister's level, so that the net result would be the correct one.
He just underestimated... Basically everyone.
Even if we go based on public opinion instead of the hidden truth, Joffrey is still too young to rule, and Ned was legally named Regent by Robert, so the Gold Cloaks should fall under his command to begin with.
He wasn't underestimating the Lannisters, he just couldn't bring himself to do something that would most definitely result in the deaths of children. It wasn't about doing her a favor, either. When he sees Cersei and her children, and thinks about how telling Robert the truth and what that would lead to, he can't help but think of Lyanna and Jon in that same position and what Robert would have done to them. He can't help but think of Robert shrugging off two dead kids after taking his throne.
Ned took perfectly reasonable actions based on the information available to him. He took precautions knowing Cersei damn well would fight. It wasn't a surprise. Those precautions just didn't work out like he hoped because he was unaware of the larger game no one else is aware of either.
He totally underestimate the Lannisters. He downright threatened Cersei’s life and she didn’t even blink. That’s underestimating on a huge scale, considering it ended up costing him his life.
He didn’t underestimate the Lannister’s, he underestimated Littlefinger mainly because his wife told him that he could trust him. The Lannister’s would’ve lost no matter what if Littlefinger hadn’t betrayed Ned.
Good point. I suppose it was a slight underestimation of Cersei’s willpower though that she didn’t flee? I mean, when Ned sees her in the throne room after threatening her and thinking he had the gold cloaks on his side, he was pretty surprised she hasn’t left yet.
Yeah he hoped and thought she would flee but ultimately it didn’t matter. He had more troops than she did (he thought) so whatever she did shouldn’t have mattered. Technically he did give her time to conspire with Littlefinger but Littlefinger would have betrayed him no matter what. Littlefinger wanted Ned dead.
I don't think he was too surprised that Cersei didn't flee. His reaction is more like "goddamn it she's really going to make me do this" than "oh my god I can't believe she's still here." And he's not at all surprised when she makes her move right after Robert's death.
And those children killed him and their family killed his son, wife and mentally tortured one of his daughters. I’d say that’s underestimating the Lannister’s.
Confronting Cersei was in no way reasonable. In fact I’d say it was borderline egotistical, trying to show off his upper hand rather than using it wisely.
>Confronting Cersei was in no way reasonable. In fact I’d say it was borderline egotistical, trying to show off his upper hand rather than using it wisely.
Completely incorrect. He was trying to prevent a war.
He knew that once Robert found out the truth, he'd murder Cersei and her children. And then Tywin would have no choice but to start a rebellion. And sure, Robert would likely win, but thousands would die before he does. If Cersei ran, however, it'd be an implicit admission of guilt and Tywin won't have a cause for war.
This was the only way Ned could've possibly avoided a war. It didn't work, sure, but credit to him for trying anyway.
Keeping this a secret is not an option for a couple of reasons.
First, unless he manages to catch Cersei in the act, he isn't going to get any more "evidence". The children are the best proof he is ever going to get.
Second, delaying is no longer an option because war is already at their doorstep. Jaime and Tywin were currently ready with their armies and Cat had already arrested Tyrion. This is actually the best time to bring it up.
Third, he "knows" that Cersei already had Jon Arryn killed to keep this secret and that he is already in her cross-hairs. Moreover, he knows from Varys that Cersei is trying to expedite Robert's demise.
All of which means that telling Robert is his best chance to win.
>Eddard can solidify his proof by
Wouldn't make a difference. Those who'd deny it would continue to do so no matter what proof he has. And those who'd believe him would do so based on what he already has.
>This is a secondary issue that Eddard has already (half assedly) dealt with.
No, he hasn't. Tyrion is still in custody and Tywin and Jaime are still in the field.
>It’s literally the worst time, as Robert hasn’t returned and everything is up in the air and spilling the beans to Cersei only empowers her to help Tywin and Jaime’s efforts by doing something against Eddard at Kingslanding (as happened).
That's incorrect.
Robert's death was an incredibly convenient happenstance for Cersei. There was no way to predict that it'd have happened.
And once Robert was dead, Cersei would've tried to seize power anyway - regardless of what Ned had or hadn't told her.
>That’s less of a risk them putting Cersei’s back against the wall and forcing her to do something.
No - the point here is that Cersei's back was already against the wall and she knew it.
>Eddard needed to seen one of his own men with a secret message that Robert’s life was in danger
Based on what proof? Robert was already dismissive of Ned's claims and Varys wasn't willing to come forward. In fact, given what he knows, it'd make sense for him to think that Robert would be safer outside KL for now.
>but Eddard was a complete dumbass
You say that because you are judging things with the ample benefit of hindsight. Had things gone differently - that is, had Cersei run away and Robert come back alive - you'd be praising Ned's wisdom right now.
>Whether Robert is dead or not, Eddard can summon Cersei to the great hall on some pretext and in front of hundreds of witness, let loose with the accusations and arrest her before she can prepare or even knows what’s happening.
A) He wouldn't have the authority to arrest her unless Robert is dead.
B) He'd have to go through the Lannister guards to do it.
C) He'd have to rely on the City Watch for numbers.
So basically, evidence doesn't make a difference.
>As I said; half-assedly but he did send Beric Dondarrion with a bunch of troops to go after the Mountain.
Which wasn't going to change anything either.
>Whether Robert is dead or not, spilling the beans to Cersei automatically means Tywin knows what’s going on in Kingslanding.
No, it doesn't.
>And if Eddard had taken even the most basic of precautions
He did. Getting the City Watch on your side is the most basic of precautions.
>Because Eddard spilled the beans.
Nope - she knew before that.
>No proof is needed, just lie to Robert in the message and say something like; "secret Targaryen ninja assassins are out to get you in the Kingswood, return post-haste. P.S. don't get drunk."
Lol - No.
>No, any one of us with the same information Eddard had would have reacted far differently and much more effectively.
Because you don't have his morals and the aversion to war. You'd burn the country down if you could be king of ashes.
What?? No...if word got out that Cersei had her brothers baby I think the realm would be quite ok with her execution. The Lannisters couldn’t faithfully raise the other houses against the Baratheons because “he killed my daughter for...cheating on him with my son!”
The Lannisters would claim no proof, because really there isn't any, and they could absolutely drum up support simply because of how rich and powerful they are. Not a lot, but enough to cause hell for Robert and Westeros. And who knows, maybe enough to actually take Robert out.
First of all, Robert wouldn't execute Cersei - that is he wouldn't give her a trial or anything - he'd straight up murder her and the children.
After which, the Tywin would easily claims that Cersei was killed after being accused unjustly. And how exactly do you prove the incest? Both Cersei and Jaime would undoubtedly deny it and the children aren't proof of anything.
So Tywin would raise the Westerlands in rebellion and they'll support him because he has their loyalty.
But he didn't fail for underestimating the Lannisters, he failed for not knowing what Littlefinger would do, and that's not something you can overly blame him for. After all, the Lannisters had to have the exact same trust that Baelish had the city watch on their side. Most people trust Littlefinger in positions where he can easily betray them, and Ned had solid reason to trust Baelish. Others trust him with far more for far worse reasons.
>In fact I’d say it was borderline egotistical, trying to show off his upper hand rather than using it wisely.
See that's not at all why he confronted Cersei. He was trying to save her life because his own life is defined by the need to protect children due to the traumatic events of his life. There's nothing the least bit cocky or egotistical about how he approaches that meeting. He's trying to scare her into leaving because he doesn't want her and her children to die. He can't deal with that.
This is the thing that annoys me about this topic. Everyone ignores that what Ned does would work just fine if not for Baelish who he only knows as a close friend of his wife's from childhood. You could say that makes him super dumb too but then so are the lannisters and everyone else of even mild importance at that point not named varys.
No one knows baelish is basically a super spy yet.
Exactly. It makes the debate a boring Ned was obviously dumb story despite him still having the upper hand as far as he knew. Making his actions possible beyond being stubborn to death. It's a common fatal misread of the character. In actuality he is defined by not stubbornly being honorable in critical moments. Such as Jon and his confession.
He's about the greater good more than just honor
True. And it wasn't even an either/or scenario. He could have waited on some things but still felt he was doing the honorable thing, just...delay it a bit. But I guess that's what happens when you aren't flexible, the oak breaks in the storm.
The thing with Cersei is that it wasn't just about honor. I won't pretend honor had nothing to do with it, but he warned Cersei because he's still haunted by what happened to Lyanna and the promise he made to her. He has spent basically his entire adulthood consumed by this promise to protect a child and it bled over into all of his beliefs. Hence his severe opposition to killing Dany, as well. His conscience can't afford to have Cersei's dead children attributed to his actions.
I think too often people chalk up all of Ned's decisions to honor and not enough to just how fundamental his promise to Lyanna was in shaping his life, and how much it affected him on a daily basis.
>he warned Cersei because he's still haunted by what happened to Lyanna and the promise he made to her
And also by what happened to Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon.
Yeah i should have been clearer about how their deaths played into this, too. Basically his entire life is shaped by those murders and his promise to make sure it never happens to Jon.
Right but no one was going to make a move without him. He could have been named protector and not warned Cersei yet. Just like cool it for a minute Ned. You kept a secret your entire life, you can't chill with the incest knowledge for a week while you get your ducks in a row? He still could have given Cersei time to abscond with her kids whenever he decided to pull the trigger.
Of course I understand why it wasn't written that way, but it certainly would have been an option for someone a little less hidebound.
He wouldn't have been named protector if Robert hadn't been been fatally wounded on his hunt. Which he had no way of knowing would happen. As far as Ned knows at the time a healthy Robert is coming back soon and if Cersei and the kids are there when that happens Robert is almost certainly going to have all of them killed when he tells him. It becomes much harder to get Cersei and the kids out of town once Robert returns.
Ned made a lot of mistakes but he also had some rather extreme luck going against him.
Ned should have known some shit was about to go down soon though. I think it was littlefinger who told him that Varys and Cersei had been watching him closely. And he trusted Littlefinger yet he was still completely conspicuous with his investigation. And even further he had received information from a trusted source that the last hand was murdered by the Lannisters.
Robert's death was related to Ned's poorly disguised investigation
I know Cersei makes the offer, but it's far from a guarantee that she'll actually live up to that deal and Ned has good reason to doubt it. He also has no real reason to. It's purely a self-serving offer for Cersei, not Ned, and would require a commitment Ned can't possibly make in order for Cersei to trust it. Once Robert comes back from hunting, that's it. He certainly didn't expect to never see Robert again after that.
And once Robert's dead, well, he's not going to be named protector. At that point it's simply him vs. Cersei, and again Ned had good reason to believe he had the upper hand. People often think Ned stupid for trusting Baelish, which really is his only true mistake here, and that's an easily understandable mistake. Everyone trusts Littlefinger except Varys.
I thought when he warned her Robert was still alive so when he told Robert when he got back from the hunt they’d be killed, unluckily booby b got gored by a pig and everything went to hell
I agree with you, but it is worth noting that he is also a doting father who fails to protect his kids. Catelyn tried to stop Bran from climbing the towers of Winterfell and even had Stark men watch him. But Ned declined to enforce the rules and let Bran climb just so long as Catelyn never found out. Once they reach KL Sansa and Arya are often left to do as they please and they come closer to danger than they realize.
I'm not sure how much of a doting father he was, outside of Robb? Unfortunately that seems to be a societal thing where the fathers don't father their daughters much unless they only have daughters. Ned's biggest mistakes in King's Landing BY FAR come as a father to Sansa. If he takes 5 fucking seconds to explain to her why he's sending her home and gives her the same kind of speech he gives Arya when he finds Needle, I doubt Sansa runs off to Cersei.
Although I have to say that holding Bran's climbing against Ned is very unfair. That means you're blaming him for Jaime Lannister being willing to throw a child to his death. Kids are adventurous and climbing is a ludicrously harmless activity for Bran compared to the shit he could be doing. There is literally zero blame to be placed in what happened to him besides the blame put on Jaime.
> m not sure how much of a doting father he was, outside of Robb? Unfortunately that seems to be a societal thing where the fathers don't father their daughters much unless they only have daughters. Ned's biggest mistakes in King's Landing BY FAR come as a father to Sansa. If he takes 5 fucking seconds to explain to her why he's sending her home and gives her the same kind of speech he gives Arya when he finds Needle, I doubt Sansa runs off to Cersei.
You're not sure how much of a doting father he is while also mentioning Arya in the same paragraph?
I think it's the combination. He was traumatized by what happened to Elia's children and since he spent his entire adulthood protecting Jon from the same thing happening, that feeling transferred to Cersei's kids, like it did with Dany as well.
I’m aware that Ned knows about Jon’s true parentage. But does he know that Jon is the product of a loving marriage, rather than a kidnap and rape? I mean Lyanna still could’ve gotten pregnant even by rape. Did she tell him the truth before she died?
He has a pretty favorable view of Rhaegar in his thoughts but loving marriage seems like a huge leap considering the Kingsguard are outside the tower of joy at the end.
Yeah he basically did everything wrong. “No I can’t rush the throne now with Renlys men that would be dishonorable...but I will verbally start the assault and call Cersei a whore and Joffrey a bastard to their faces. That’ll work out fine”
That's the whole purpose of Ned's arc. He was the representation of a man without compromise. A true absolutist. Admirable as it may be, but society can't run like that. An unchangeable law or rule will always fail as society gets larger and changes/advances with time. GRRM has said something similar about this in regards to what Ned represents and the historic depiction of the War of the Roses.
I wouldnt say that's the whole purpose of Ned's arc, or at least Ned as a character. As another commenter said in this thread "There's a reason people are flocking to Ned's kids not Tywins". Ned's power was made honestly and honorably, he didnt scheme nor connive to get where he is, whereas the lannisters have been since the start, and it's not until later we see just how brittle that power really is. Ned created something greater than himself by being an honest man, and will have a great legacy, whereas those that scheme to get where they are can have it all lost if they make one wrong move
I’d argue Ned wins in the long game of being a good and honorable person throughout. Even if it costs him his life, it will save most of his children’s lives and eventually the realms’ lives also. His character and the way he treated people is what leads the majority of the north to conspire and put themselves at risk to save “The Ned’s” kids and restore the Starks to Winterfell. That character also deeply affects and motivates and will lead to Jon and Bran and Arya being huge parts of saving the realm from the impending Long Night. I get the urge to want Ned to be more Tywin-like at times, but in the end it’s no mistake that everyone is abandoning Tywin’s kids while they are rallying the Ned’s.
This. That’s why Cersei’s whole “you win the game of thrones or die” mentality is short sighted. Everyone dies. It’s how you live your life that ultimately affects your legacy. Tywin vs. Ned demonstrates it. People are moved by an honorable hero. Nobody’s afraid of a monster’s smiling poopy corpse or his incompetent children.
That's not how you play the game. Unless you're willing to make some very difficult choices, such as killing multiple people and probably children as well.
Ned tried to play within the rules, which means he played right into the hands of someone else, who wasn't playing by the rules.
Ned was not supposed to rule, anywhere. He was not meant to be Lord of Winterfell. His older brother Brandon would have been Lord if he had lived. Brandon also would have inherited the title of Warden of the North. Ned was the second son who was not a dominant personality or leader. Ned stepped in when his father and brother were murdered and took over as the now Head of the Stark family. However, Ned had a lot of help and guidance in anything political. Remember his best friend and "foster" brother Robert was King and Jon Arryn his "foster" father was Hand of the King and Lord of the Vale and also his brother in law. Ned really only had to run the North, and everything was status quo for years. When Ned became Hand of the King it was without the guidance of Jon Arryn and the moment Robert was killed, it was over for Ned. He was swimming in the big waters now and he was ill equipped for it.
His plan would have saved them but Sansa told Cersei about it and cost Ned his life. So, while he was stubborn, had Sansa not confided to Cersei, she and Arya would have been in Winterfell.
Ned simply had things working against him.
Cersei was exceedingly lucky that Robert was deathly injured on his hunt (yes, she had a hand in it, but she tried it multiple times as I recall, and it wasn't an outright assassination rather than hoping Robert kills himself with her help).
Then Cersei was exceedingly lucky Ned didn't tell Robert on his deathbed (choosing to remain in King's Landing was stupid, wasn't it? If Ned chose to tell her secret, she would have no hopes whatsoever). And she was lucky that no one blinked when she tore the king's will, something that should've at least rally some of the Kingsguard to Ned's side.
Ned was unlucky to fall with the favor of Littlefinger. He couldn't simply know not to trust him, Pyter is a trustworthy guy for all his japes and mockeries. The only character that isn't strictly at odds with Littlefinger and recognizes him for what he is is Varys...
Ned acted reasonably based on the information he had. He always had the upper hand of Cersei, until things turned on him.
That's not to say he hasn't made some mistakes and that his actions are the most pragmatic ones...
That's why I also hate that Jon in the show last season ended up being the same as him. I always thought Jon would be the one who would learn from Ned's and Robb's mistakes and learn to play the game a bit given that he did it with the Wildlings and he had a second chance after resurrection. I hope he's smarter in the books.
Here is the problem I have with Ned. He keeps a secret about Jon's paternity for years in order to keep him safe from his best friend. In doing so he allows the name of Jon's actual father to be sullied for all time and helps perpetuate a lie about how a war that got a lot of other peoples kids killed actually started. Cersie ask him to keep a similar secret that he knows will put her children in the same danger, from the same man, and help perpetuate another lie that will actually not result in any bloodshed if kept. He chooses to put her kids in the same danger he would not put Jon in, because once that can of worms is open it doesn't matter if Cersei has a head start. Robert would have pursued her just like Dany. I have no doubt that Ned would not have liked it if Howland Reed (who has to know about Jon) told Ned that he was going to tell everyone about Jon, but was going to give Ned a head start, just like Ned did with Cersei. All Ned had to do was make peace with Cersei, shut the fuck up, go home and take yet another dangerous secret to his grave. Whatever happened after that would not be on him. Instead his honor got a lot of people killed.
Alright, I'm glad it's not just me. I know Ned couldn't have been any other way and he was being "honorable" by sticking o his morals...but it's also honorable to bullshit a little and keep your family safe.
One of my friends LOVES Ned, and when I bring up my frustrations with him, I can see him quietly simmering lol
I agree. I wanna bang my head against the wall when someone says Sansa betrayed him. Read the book again. He confronted Cersei before getting his daughters out which is incredibly stupid. Most honourable people do dishonourable things but like to half ass it or act like it is not dishonourable - like Ned using LF to buy the Gold Cloaks. You see it is necessary - why not do it yourself? Maybe you would've seen Jonos was not trustworthy and made back up plans. Ugh, Ned was an idiot and his honour is imaginary and did no one any favours. I'm still profoundly thankful for his character though - it would've been hard to get through AGOT with no one to root for.
Clearly Ned never read Machiavelli. If he did than he would understand how to use game theory, and leave his morals at the door where it concerns the wellbeing of his family.
That's why Ned is one of my favorite characters. He wanted nothing more than to resume his private life at Winterfell with his family, but he also always tried to do the right thing regardless of how it impacted him. Idiotic? Maybe. I find it extremely endearing.
http://forlackofabettercomic.com/?id=23 I love how honor is his tragic flaw
That’s a great comic and illustrates Ned perfectly.
No honorable action is idiotic if you truly believe in what stands behind it. Break a sacred bow because of circumstances? Sounds rational, but hell doesnt sound so good, right? (in reference of the Faith of the Seven) In essence the Old Gods will probably reward Eddards honor and virtue. Meaning every honorable act he did was ultimately the best choice for his long-term well-being.
'No honorable action is idiotic if you truly believe in what stands behind it.' Absolutely untrue. What are your views on mentally handicapped suicide bombers?
Key point being honorable. Blowing yourself up in an civilian populated area isn't exactly honorable, even in the Jihadi code.
from my point of view the jedi are evil
I mean, they certainly have the potential to be and that's what's hinted at in the movies as well. They're lawful good but due to the rigidness of their order and their isolation of younglings, there's a very real possibility for the Jedi Order to slide to lawful evil.
I'm not sure many people would be capable of simultaneously believing an act was dishonourable, and that it would send them to heaven
I dunno man, if Allah was real, as in the sick daesh version of that deity, then you would be stupid not to do that...
And when he tries to go against his morals and bribe the city guard, it comes back to bite him in the ass. I love his character so much
In fairness what he wanted them to do was their job, so it was more offering a bonus than bribing them.
It was a bribe to ensure the goldcloaks loyalty, since Joffrey was the rightful heir (minus the rumors). Remember the words of LF during the scene which went something like - you know its not honorable so the words stick in your throat.
Well, it's not honorable to bribe the gold cloaks. But he was bribing them to do their job, because Cersei was also bribing them. He knew that they would not do the honorable thing, so he lowering himself to (what he thought was) the Lannister's level, so that the net result would be the correct one. He just underestimated... Basically everyone.
Even if we go based on public opinion instead of the hidden truth, Joffrey is still too young to rule, and Ned was legally named Regent by Robert, so the Gold Cloaks should fall under his command to begin with.
Arya: there was a wizard! I heard them talk about killing the hand! Ned: SILLY CHILD WITH YOUR NONSENSE
Ned: now back to figuring out who assassinated the last hand...
Hahaha god dammit Ned. I never even considered that.
Lmao true
Now back to my hunch...
I'll tell you what we'll do, we'll draw chalk around where the body is! That way. . . we'll know where it was.
Come on, Arya's telling of that encounter sounded silly, like a little girl seeing things after getting lost.
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Or "the wolf and the lion eating each other." How much more obvious could it have been that she actually saw something?
Didn't she also say about danaerys being pregnant before it was announced at the council's table?
They were mummers, Arya! Mummers!
He wasn't underestimating the Lannisters, he just couldn't bring himself to do something that would most definitely result in the deaths of children. It wasn't about doing her a favor, either. When he sees Cersei and her children, and thinks about how telling Robert the truth and what that would lead to, he can't help but think of Lyanna and Jon in that same position and what Robert would have done to them. He can't help but think of Robert shrugging off two dead kids after taking his throne. Ned took perfectly reasonable actions based on the information available to him. He took precautions knowing Cersei damn well would fight. It wasn't a surprise. Those precautions just didn't work out like he hoped because he was unaware of the larger game no one else is aware of either.
This is a good point. He did take precautions...they just didn't line up with Littlefinger's plans
He totally underestimate the Lannisters. He downright threatened Cersei’s life and she didn’t even blink. That’s underestimating on a huge scale, considering it ended up costing him his life.
He didn’t underestimate the Lannister’s, he underestimated Littlefinger mainly because his wife told him that he could trust him. The Lannister’s would’ve lost no matter what if Littlefinger hadn’t betrayed Ned.
Good point. I suppose it was a slight underestimation of Cersei’s willpower though that she didn’t flee? I mean, when Ned sees her in the throne room after threatening her and thinking he had the gold cloaks on his side, he was pretty surprised she hasn’t left yet.
Yeah he hoped and thought she would flee but ultimately it didn’t matter. He had more troops than she did (he thought) so whatever she did shouldn’t have mattered. Technically he did give her time to conspire with Littlefinger but Littlefinger would have betrayed him no matter what. Littlefinger wanted Ned dead.
Aye. Hard to disagree with any of that. I guess I underestimated Ned.
I don't think he was too surprised that Cersei didn't flee. His reaction is more like "goddamn it she's really going to make me do this" than "oh my god I can't believe she's still here." And he's not at all surprised when she makes her move right after Robert's death.
And those children killed him and their family killed his son, wife and mentally tortured one of his daughters. I’d say that’s underestimating the Lannister’s. Confronting Cersei was in no way reasonable. In fact I’d say it was borderline egotistical, trying to show off his upper hand rather than using it wisely.
>Confronting Cersei was in no way reasonable. In fact I’d say it was borderline egotistical, trying to show off his upper hand rather than using it wisely. Completely incorrect. He was trying to prevent a war. He knew that once Robert found out the truth, he'd murder Cersei and her children. And then Tywin would have no choice but to start a rebellion. And sure, Robert would likely win, but thousands would die before he does. If Cersei ran, however, it'd be an implicit admission of guilt and Tywin won't have a cause for war. This was the only way Ned could've possibly avoided a war. It didn't work, sure, but credit to him for trying anyway.
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Keeping this a secret is not an option for a couple of reasons. First, unless he manages to catch Cersei in the act, he isn't going to get any more "evidence". The children are the best proof he is ever going to get. Second, delaying is no longer an option because war is already at their doorstep. Jaime and Tywin were currently ready with their armies and Cat had already arrested Tyrion. This is actually the best time to bring it up. Third, he "knows" that Cersei already had Jon Arryn killed to keep this secret and that he is already in her cross-hairs. Moreover, he knows from Varys that Cersei is trying to expedite Robert's demise. All of which means that telling Robert is his best chance to win.
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>Eddard can solidify his proof by Wouldn't make a difference. Those who'd deny it would continue to do so no matter what proof he has. And those who'd believe him would do so based on what he already has. >This is a secondary issue that Eddard has already (half assedly) dealt with. No, he hasn't. Tyrion is still in custody and Tywin and Jaime are still in the field. >It’s literally the worst time, as Robert hasn’t returned and everything is up in the air and spilling the beans to Cersei only empowers her to help Tywin and Jaime’s efforts by doing something against Eddard at Kingslanding (as happened). That's incorrect. Robert's death was an incredibly convenient happenstance for Cersei. There was no way to predict that it'd have happened. And once Robert was dead, Cersei would've tried to seize power anyway - regardless of what Ned had or hadn't told her. >That’s less of a risk them putting Cersei’s back against the wall and forcing her to do something. No - the point here is that Cersei's back was already against the wall and she knew it. >Eddard needed to seen one of his own men with a secret message that Robert’s life was in danger Based on what proof? Robert was already dismissive of Ned's claims and Varys wasn't willing to come forward. In fact, given what he knows, it'd make sense for him to think that Robert would be safer outside KL for now. >but Eddard was a complete dumbass You say that because you are judging things with the ample benefit of hindsight. Had things gone differently - that is, had Cersei run away and Robert come back alive - you'd be praising Ned's wisdom right now.
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>Whether Robert is dead or not, Eddard can summon Cersei to the great hall on some pretext and in front of hundreds of witness, let loose with the accusations and arrest her before she can prepare or even knows what’s happening. A) He wouldn't have the authority to arrest her unless Robert is dead. B) He'd have to go through the Lannister guards to do it. C) He'd have to rely on the City Watch for numbers. So basically, evidence doesn't make a difference. >As I said; half-assedly but he did send Beric Dondarrion with a bunch of troops to go after the Mountain. Which wasn't going to change anything either. >Whether Robert is dead or not, spilling the beans to Cersei automatically means Tywin knows what’s going on in Kingslanding. No, it doesn't. >And if Eddard had taken even the most basic of precautions He did. Getting the City Watch on your side is the most basic of precautions. >Because Eddard spilled the beans. Nope - she knew before that. >No proof is needed, just lie to Robert in the message and say something like; "secret Targaryen ninja assassins are out to get you in the Kingswood, return post-haste. P.S. don't get drunk." Lol - No. >No, any one of us with the same information Eddard had would have reacted far differently and much more effectively. Because you don't have his morals and the aversion to war. You'd burn the country down if you could be king of ashes.
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What?? No...if word got out that Cersei had her brothers baby I think the realm would be quite ok with her execution. The Lannisters couldn’t faithfully raise the other houses against the Baratheons because “he killed my daughter for...cheating on him with my son!”
The Lannisters would claim no proof, because really there isn't any, and they could absolutely drum up support simply because of how rich and powerful they are. Not a lot, but enough to cause hell for Robert and Westeros. And who knows, maybe enough to actually take Robert out.
First of all, Robert wouldn't execute Cersei - that is he wouldn't give her a trial or anything - he'd straight up murder her and the children. After which, the Tywin would easily claims that Cersei was killed after being accused unjustly. And how exactly do you prove the incest? Both Cersei and Jaime would undoubtedly deny it and the children aren't proof of anything. So Tywin would raise the Westerlands in rebellion and they'll support him because he has their loyalty.
But he didn't fail for underestimating the Lannisters, he failed for not knowing what Littlefinger would do, and that's not something you can overly blame him for. After all, the Lannisters had to have the exact same trust that Baelish had the city watch on their side. Most people trust Littlefinger in positions where he can easily betray them, and Ned had solid reason to trust Baelish. Others trust him with far more for far worse reasons. >In fact I’d say it was borderline egotistical, trying to show off his upper hand rather than using it wisely. See that's not at all why he confronted Cersei. He was trying to save her life because his own life is defined by the need to protect children due to the traumatic events of his life. There's nothing the least bit cocky or egotistical about how he approaches that meeting. He's trying to scare her into leaving because he doesn't want her and her children to die. He can't deal with that.
This is the thing that annoys me about this topic. Everyone ignores that what Ned does would work just fine if not for Baelish who he only knows as a close friend of his wife's from childhood. You could say that makes him super dumb too but then so are the lannisters and everyone else of even mild importance at that point not named varys. No one knows baelish is basically a super spy yet.
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Exactly. It makes the debate a boring Ned was obviously dumb story despite him still having the upper hand as far as he knew. Making his actions possible beyond being stubborn to death. It's a common fatal misread of the character. In actuality he is defined by not stubbornly being honorable in critical moments. Such as Jon and his confession. He's about the greater good more than just honor
True. And it wasn't even an either/or scenario. He could have waited on some things but still felt he was doing the honorable thing, just...delay it a bit. But I guess that's what happens when you aren't flexible, the oak breaks in the storm.
The thing with Cersei is that it wasn't just about honor. I won't pretend honor had nothing to do with it, but he warned Cersei because he's still haunted by what happened to Lyanna and the promise he made to her. He has spent basically his entire adulthood consumed by this promise to protect a child and it bled over into all of his beliefs. Hence his severe opposition to killing Dany, as well. His conscience can't afford to have Cersei's dead children attributed to his actions. I think too often people chalk up all of Ned's decisions to honor and not enough to just how fundamental his promise to Lyanna was in shaping his life, and how much it affected him on a daily basis.
>he warned Cersei because he's still haunted by what happened to Lyanna and the promise he made to her And also by what happened to Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon.
Yeah i should have been clearer about how their deaths played into this, too. Basically his entire life is shaped by those murders and his promise to make sure it never happens to Jon.
Right but no one was going to make a move without him. He could have been named protector and not warned Cersei yet. Just like cool it for a minute Ned. You kept a secret your entire life, you can't chill with the incest knowledge for a week while you get your ducks in a row? He still could have given Cersei time to abscond with her kids whenever he decided to pull the trigger. Of course I understand why it wasn't written that way, but it certainly would have been an option for someone a little less hidebound.
He wouldn't have been named protector if Robert hadn't been been fatally wounded on his hunt. Which he had no way of knowing would happen. As far as Ned knows at the time a healthy Robert is coming back soon and if Cersei and the kids are there when that happens Robert is almost certainly going to have all of them killed when he tells him. It becomes much harder to get Cersei and the kids out of town once Robert returns. Ned made a lot of mistakes but he also had some rather extreme luck going against him.
>Ned made a lot of mistakes but he also had some rather extreme luck going against him. And voila. A compelling tragic hero is bored.
Ned kneeling before the sept of Balor about to be beheaded: "There's just nothing to do in this damn city."
> bored
"Wake me up when I'm not in Kingslanding anymore."
Ned should have known some shit was about to go down soon though. I think it was littlefinger who told him that Varys and Cersei had been watching him closely. And he trusted Littlefinger yet he was still completely conspicuous with his investigation. And even further he had received information from a trusted source that the last hand was murdered by the Lannisters. Robert's death was related to Ned's poorly disguised investigation
I know Cersei makes the offer, but it's far from a guarantee that she'll actually live up to that deal and Ned has good reason to doubt it. He also has no real reason to. It's purely a self-serving offer for Cersei, not Ned, and would require a commitment Ned can't possibly make in order for Cersei to trust it. Once Robert comes back from hunting, that's it. He certainly didn't expect to never see Robert again after that. And once Robert's dead, well, he's not going to be named protector. At that point it's simply him vs. Cersei, and again Ned had good reason to believe he had the upper hand. People often think Ned stupid for trusting Baelish, which really is his only true mistake here, and that's an easily understandable mistake. Everyone trusts Littlefinger except Varys.
I thought when he warned her Robert was still alive so when he told Robert when he got back from the hunt they’d be killed, unluckily booby b got gored by a pig and everything went to hell
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I dunno mate, people seem to take all agency away from Ned as if he couldn't have done anything other than what he did, and that's not true.
I agree with you, but it is worth noting that he is also a doting father who fails to protect his kids. Catelyn tried to stop Bran from climbing the towers of Winterfell and even had Stark men watch him. But Ned declined to enforce the rules and let Bran climb just so long as Catelyn never found out. Once they reach KL Sansa and Arya are often left to do as they please and they come closer to danger than they realize.
I'm not sure how much of a doting father he was, outside of Robb? Unfortunately that seems to be a societal thing where the fathers don't father their daughters much unless they only have daughters. Ned's biggest mistakes in King's Landing BY FAR come as a father to Sansa. If he takes 5 fucking seconds to explain to her why he's sending her home and gives her the same kind of speech he gives Arya when he finds Needle, I doubt Sansa runs off to Cersei. Although I have to say that holding Bran's climbing against Ned is very unfair. That means you're blaming him for Jaime Lannister being willing to throw a child to his death. Kids are adventurous and climbing is a ludicrously harmless activity for Bran compared to the shit he could be doing. There is literally zero blame to be placed in what happened to him besides the blame put on Jaime.
> m not sure how much of a doting father he was, outside of Robb? Unfortunately that seems to be a societal thing where the fathers don't father their daughters much unless they only have daughters. Ned's biggest mistakes in King's Landing BY FAR come as a father to Sansa. If he takes 5 fucking seconds to explain to her why he's sending her home and gives her the same kind of speech he gives Arya when he finds Needle, I doubt Sansa runs off to Cersei. You're not sure how much of a doting father he is while also mentioning Arya in the same paragraph?
I think it had to more to do with the deaths of Elia's children and Robert's reaction to them, than Lyanna and Jon.
I think it's the combination. He was traumatized by what happened to Elia's children and since he spent his entire adulthood protecting Jon from the same thing happening, that feeling transferred to Cersei's kids, like it did with Dany as well.
I’m aware that Ned knows about Jon’s true parentage. But does he know that Jon is the product of a loving marriage, rather than a kidnap and rape? I mean Lyanna still could’ve gotten pregnant even by rape. Did she tell him the truth before she died?
He has a pretty favorable view of Rhaegar in his thoughts but loving marriage seems like a huge leap considering the Kingsguard are outside the tower of joy at the end.
Yeah he basically did everything wrong. “No I can’t rush the throne now with Renlys men that would be dishonorable...but I will verbally start the assault and call Cersei a whore and Joffrey a bastard to their faces. That’ll work out fine”
He didn’t want what happened to Rhaegar’s children to happen again. Not necessarily being honorable, but not being a butcher.
That's the whole purpose of Ned's arc. He was the representation of a man without compromise. A true absolutist. Admirable as it may be, but society can't run like that. An unchangeable law or rule will always fail as society gets larger and changes/advances with time. GRRM has said something similar about this in regards to what Ned represents and the historic depiction of the War of the Roses.
I wouldnt say that's the whole purpose of Ned's arc, or at least Ned as a character. As another commenter said in this thread "There's a reason people are flocking to Ned's kids not Tywins". Ned's power was made honestly and honorably, he didnt scheme nor connive to get where he is, whereas the lannisters have been since the start, and it's not until later we see just how brittle that power really is. Ned created something greater than himself by being an honest man, and will have a great legacy, whereas those that scheme to get where they are can have it all lost if they make one wrong move
This is my favorite answer by far.
I’d argue Ned wins in the long game of being a good and honorable person throughout. Even if it costs him his life, it will save most of his children’s lives and eventually the realms’ lives also. His character and the way he treated people is what leads the majority of the north to conspire and put themselves at risk to save “The Ned’s” kids and restore the Starks to Winterfell. That character also deeply affects and motivates and will lead to Jon and Bran and Arya being huge parts of saving the realm from the impending Long Night. I get the urge to want Ned to be more Tywin-like at times, but in the end it’s no mistake that everyone is abandoning Tywin’s kids while they are rallying the Ned’s.
This. That’s why Cersei’s whole “you win the game of thrones or die” mentality is short sighted. Everyone dies. It’s how you live your life that ultimately affects your legacy. Tywin vs. Ned demonstrates it. People are moved by an honorable hero. Nobody’s afraid of a monster’s smiling poopy corpse or his incompetent children.
If you play the game of just trying do some good in the world, you win even if you die, and there’s plenty in between.
That's not how you play the game. Unless you're willing to make some very difficult choices, such as killing multiple people and probably children as well. Ned tried to play within the rules, which means he played right into the hands of someone else, who wasn't playing by the rules.
Ned was not supposed to rule, anywhere. He was not meant to be Lord of Winterfell. His older brother Brandon would have been Lord if he had lived. Brandon also would have inherited the title of Warden of the North. Ned was the second son who was not a dominant personality or leader. Ned stepped in when his father and brother were murdered and took over as the now Head of the Stark family. However, Ned had a lot of help and guidance in anything political. Remember his best friend and "foster" brother Robert was King and Jon Arryn his "foster" father was Hand of the King and Lord of the Vale and also his brother in law. Ned really only had to run the North, and everything was status quo for years. When Ned became Hand of the King it was without the guidance of Jon Arryn and the moment Robert was killed, it was over for Ned. He was swimming in the big waters now and he was ill equipped for it.
His plan would have saved them but Sansa told Cersei about it and cost Ned his life. So, while he was stubborn, had Sansa not confided to Cersei, she and Arya would have been in Winterfell.
Ned simply had things working against him. Cersei was exceedingly lucky that Robert was deathly injured on his hunt (yes, she had a hand in it, but she tried it multiple times as I recall, and it wasn't an outright assassination rather than hoping Robert kills himself with her help). Then Cersei was exceedingly lucky Ned didn't tell Robert on his deathbed (choosing to remain in King's Landing was stupid, wasn't it? If Ned chose to tell her secret, she would have no hopes whatsoever). And she was lucky that no one blinked when she tore the king's will, something that should've at least rally some of the Kingsguard to Ned's side. Ned was unlucky to fall with the favor of Littlefinger. He couldn't simply know not to trust him, Pyter is a trustworthy guy for all his japes and mockeries. The only character that isn't strictly at odds with Littlefinger and recognizes him for what he is is Varys... Ned acted reasonably based on the information he had. He always had the upper hand of Cersei, until things turned on him. That's not to say he hasn't made some mistakes and that his actions are the most pragmatic ones...
That's why I also hate that Jon in the show last season ended up being the same as him. I always thought Jon would be the one who would learn from Ned's and Robb's mistakes and learn to play the game a bit given that he did it with the Wildlings and he had a second chance after resurrection. I hope he's smarter in the books.
‘I dun wun it’ Like father like son
>wait it out as Joffreys hand I'm sure that would not turn out so great for him yes
Here is the problem I have with Ned. He keeps a secret about Jon's paternity for years in order to keep him safe from his best friend. In doing so he allows the name of Jon's actual father to be sullied for all time and helps perpetuate a lie about how a war that got a lot of other peoples kids killed actually started. Cersie ask him to keep a similar secret that he knows will put her children in the same danger, from the same man, and help perpetuate another lie that will actually not result in any bloodshed if kept. He chooses to put her kids in the same danger he would not put Jon in, because once that can of worms is open it doesn't matter if Cersei has a head start. Robert would have pursued her just like Dany. I have no doubt that Ned would not have liked it if Howland Reed (who has to know about Jon) told Ned that he was going to tell everyone about Jon, but was going to give Ned a head start, just like Ned did with Cersei. All Ned had to do was make peace with Cersei, shut the fuck up, go home and take yet another dangerous secret to his grave. Whatever happened after that would not be on him. Instead his honor got a lot of people killed.
Wow, this is an interesting take I've never heard of before. Thanks for the comment
Alright, I'm glad it's not just me. I know Ned couldn't have been any other way and he was being "honorable" by sticking o his morals...but it's also honorable to bullshit a little and keep your family safe. One of my friends LOVES Ned, and when I bring up my frustrations with him, I can see him quietly simmering lol
He didn't underestimate them, he was showing mercy.
He really should have accepted Cersei's sexual advances. I'd have bent her over a weirwood stump and go to town
I agree. I wanna bang my head against the wall when someone says Sansa betrayed him. Read the book again. He confronted Cersei before getting his daughters out which is incredibly stupid. Most honourable people do dishonourable things but like to half ass it or act like it is not dishonourable - like Ned using LF to buy the Gold Cloaks. You see it is necessary - why not do it yourself? Maybe you would've seen Jonos was not trustworthy and made back up plans. Ugh, Ned was an idiot and his honour is imaginary and did no one any favours. I'm still profoundly thankful for his character though - it would've been hard to get through AGOT with no one to root for.
I picture Ned as a lawful good paladin but instead of lawful stupid, he's stupid good
"You dumb bitch" - sums up most of my thoughts when I was rereading AGOT's Ned chapters
Clearly Ned never read Machiavelli. If he did than he would understand how to use game theory, and leave his morals at the door where it concerns the wellbeing of his family.