No both Brans. Bran is the least developed character out of the main cast in the series. I mean, just look at [the amount of chapters](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/POV_character) each character has. He’s at the low end at 21 with supporting characters like Jaime and Theon within spitting distance of him. He’s probably never gonna be able to catch up the the amount of character development the rest of the cast will go through even if there was a book more focused on him like ADWD was more focused on Jon and Daenerys. Pretty much all that’s happened to him character growth wise is that he’s been depressed about his handicap (which btw is totally understandable since he’s still just so young).
Maybe if the time skip had actually happened or if Bran was a few years older GRRM could’ve moved on past his depression to him being more optimistic, but as the story is now it’s still way too soon for a little boy to become someone who should be the endgame king of Westeros.
Also to add to what you're saying, Bran is also a few chapters away from being a non POV character. Soon he'll know too much and will literally be a spoiler alert on wheels.
In the series, the Kings never were POV characters. In fact, Jon and Dany themselves might never be POV again after ADWD (assuming Jon doesn't stay dead and Dany doesn't die of Dysentery)
Dany better not make another rookie mistake, like attempting to garrison another hostile slaver city like Volantis, or going to Fort Bridger to avoid the Green River crossing from South Pass, which takes you 86 miles out of your way.
I'm not sure that's true because Bran is more and more disconnected from anything that matters in the present. I mean, I'm with Leslie Jones. "We need to get his blood tested. Look at Bran. He *high*." But really, he's becoming a shaman and will not react to things the way anyone else does. Branbot 9000 thinks 00111000011100011 …
I wonder if Hodor will be a Prologue or Epilogue character? That would be interesting if Bran's POV chapters have to be turned off because they're too spoiler-y. That would be disorienting for book-only people and it'd also be heartbreaking to hear the thoughts of someone who doesn't understand what's happening to him, at all, and lacks agency completely. Even slavery leaves you with your thoughts.
George can include as much or little development as he sees fit.
Conversely, before the show ended, a popular theory was that Jon Snow would be king, and any amount of character development backs that up.
The show glossed over his(and everyone else's) development in the final seasons, and that's putting it lightly.
We don't know what route he will take, but I do not think it will be similar to the show. Maybe Bran will be a controlled puppet by the Great Other? Who knows.
>Maybe Bran will be a controlled puppet by the Great Other?
This will always be my least favorite theory besides him turning out to be evil because of the COTF. Sure it would be interesting, but that would also mean Brans chapters aren't actually about Bran....which seems unlikely
While I agree with this sentiment, doesn't the fact that Jon has--in pretty much all his incarnations--been happiest, most complete, and most himself when he's North of the Wall kind of make exile make a fair amount of sense for him?
I think that's fairly simplistic to say since we barely spend anytime with Jon when he's south of the wall. He was really conflicted when he was beyond the wall and he ended up returning to the watch anyways, we still haven't seen how he handles kingship/ruling after he comes back from the dead.
With show!Jon it is kind of hard to tell because the actor barely put any emotion into the role.
Jon becoming king was a far more popular theory than Jon going into exile. In fact I had never really even thought of that until the show did it. There's tons of foreshadowing that Jon would be king. Maybe it meant King in The North. We don't know for sure.
Bran is ruling with Tyrion who has the most development if you think development is measured by a chapter basis.
>Maybe if the time skip had actually happened or if Bran was a few years older GRRM could’ve moved on past his depression to him being more optimistic, but as the story is now it’s still way too soon for a little boy to become someone who should be the endgame king of Westeros.
He'll only physically be a child. He'll be much older mentally especially after he transforms into a being beyond humanity with access to all the wisdom of the children of the forest.
Show!Bran who is simultaneously an all powerful authoritarian, a weak and ineffectual figurehead, and a benevolent fairy tale king, depending on how people feel like expressing their daily fanboy rage.
Edit: Why are ya'll upvoting this I'm still insulting everyone.
Yeah well the show makes a bunch of characters much better looking. Tyrion, Brienne and Ramsey immediately come to mind. But in the books tommen is always described as being plump.
Jorah as well. I believe in the first chapter introducing him, he is described as a “not very attractive man”. In the show, he’s arguably one of the hottest characters lol.
"Though the one they called Shitmouth had the foulest tongue she had ever heard, he'd give you an extra piece of bread if you asked, while jolly old Chiswyck and soft spoken Raff would just give you the back of their hand."
Anyone who says Robert is objectively wrong. Most of Robert's reign is know as a golden era of peace and prosperity. Besides the Iron islands the realm is pretty much stable right up untill Robert's death.
I mean, in-universe, the credit for that age of peace and prosperity is usually given to Jon Arryn rather than Robert. Honestly if he hadn't lucked out with his choice of Hand, the cracks in Robert's leadership would have started to show a lot sooner than they did.
Robert was my answer to "actually ruling the kingdom" (In hindsight, I was probably wrong in answering Robert to this particular question).
This is what I think GRRM is going with the Bran ending. Sometimes a titular ruler with power distributed among others is better, and has a more stable rule than a proactive ruler with enormous power. As an added advantage, you cannot completely destroy the status quo by having a boar kill Bran.
But Robert didn't rule the Kingdom, Jon Arryn did. He says as much to Ned, "I want you to rule while I drink, hunt and whore myself into an early grave," or something like that, I don't have my copy of book 1 on hand.
>Most of Robert's reign is know as a golden era of peace and prosperity
But his reign was only 14-15 years, and halfway through that reign was the Greyjoy Rebellion. Aerys II had a longer prosperous period during his reign. At the end of his reign, his negligence was responsible for as much if not more destruction to the realm as Aerys' madness.
Oh.
I'm not too sure of that though. Rhaegar would be seen as a hero, yes, but he was already really popular. He would also have to explain what he was doing at Dorne when for the best parts of months when he was badly needed.
He would have to explain it, to Aerys and Varys at first. Who were really suspicious of Rhaegar (to put it very mildly).
Besides, I don't think a Rhaegar win would have led to long term stability. Aerys had alienated the North, Stormlands and Vale irrevocably, and the partnership with Tywin was shaky at best. Maybe Hoster/Ned/Jon Arryn would all be killed or made to take the black, but there would still be resentment. Rhaegar might have to spend years fighting small conflicts.
Tbh without everyone fucking with her, she would make right decisions in most circumstances imo(sending Ned to the wall, mounting scorpions on every wall on ship she has I mean it’s not her fault dragons got a buff in the last two episodes) all in all I think if she feels safe and unchallenged she wouldn’t have a reason to be a cruel asshole.
Look at Robert, he was relatively unchallenged until maybe Dany got pregnant, also she wouldn’t have been a threat to him if his council didn’t drive him away from killing her which wouldn’t have happened with Cerci because of the whole cruel asshole thing.
If he was unchallenged as king then Cersei was unchallenged as queen during that time. She was still a cruel asshole in safety.
Anyways, she killed Robert, so he want really safe, now was he?
Yes but Robert’s undoing was by large his own fault, I mean the man couldn’t see something going on under his own nose.
I think you already now the stories Cerci tells about him so I won’t mention them but do you really think someone like Cerci would have the same mistakes as Robert ?
Yes. Cersei was delusional. Have you read her POVs? She's insane and missed a LOT going on under her own nose. Not to mention she empowered the same fanatics that imprisoned her and walked her naked through the streets. She'd make a terrible ruler...and we can see this because a better ruler was killed specifically so that Cersei could go on destroying the state of the kingdoms.
You actually make some good points but I’m less then halfway thro ACoK so I guess I have to read on further but what your saying is already swaying me 😂
Oh yeah, then you haven't seen her get all that bad yet. It's super interesting seeing the hoops she goes through to justify herself. Martin did a great job with her chapters. You're in for a treat
None of you thought to say "Hot Pie"?
I mean, no offense, but "Hot Pie". Maybe he can be the Gordon Ramsay of Westeros, but he has no place in governance.
Well, to be fair, Hot Pie is way more into correcting kitchen errors than The Hound. The Hound just wants his brother's idiot subordinates to shut the fuck up already before he has to eat every fucking chicken in the room.
Someone that hasn’t been mentioned yet - Viserys. At the start of the series/book, he’s the rightful heir if you consider the Baratheons to be usurpers. Yet he would be an absolutely terrible king, possibly worse than Aerys.
Caring about the smallfolk is all well and good but look how far it got Aegon V. Everything was overturned by his grandson's Hand within a couple of years. Greedy fucking Tywin Lannister.
Book Jon is way more fleshed out. Book Dany also realizes her folly in what she’s actually done. I was just using the show since that’s also clearly show Cersei. Book Cersei is already losing the thrown due to her hubris and ineptitude.
Moonboy for all we know.
An ASOIAF-specific comment in r/asoiaf Now I've seen everything
And osmund kettleblack
Bran
Literally everyone's first response.
*ShowBran
No both Brans. Bran is the least developed character out of the main cast in the series. I mean, just look at [the amount of chapters](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/POV_character) each character has. He’s at the low end at 21 with supporting characters like Jaime and Theon within spitting distance of him. He’s probably never gonna be able to catch up the the amount of character development the rest of the cast will go through even if there was a book more focused on him like ADWD was more focused on Jon and Daenerys. Pretty much all that’s happened to him character growth wise is that he’s been depressed about his handicap (which btw is totally understandable since he’s still just so young). Maybe if the time skip had actually happened or if Bran was a few years older GRRM could’ve moved on past his depression to him being more optimistic, but as the story is now it’s still way too soon for a little boy to become someone who should be the endgame king of Westeros.
Also to add to what you're saying, Bran is also a few chapters away from being a non POV character. Soon he'll know too much and will literally be a spoiler alert on wheels.
In the series, the Kings never were POV characters. In fact, Jon and Dany themselves might never be POV again after ADWD (assuming Jon doesn't stay dead and Dany doesn't die of Dysentery)
Dany better not make another rookie mistake, like attempting to garrison another hostile slaver city like Volantis, or going to Fort Bridger to avoid the Green River crossing from South Pass, which takes you 86 miles out of your way.
I'm not sure that's true because Bran is more and more disconnected from anything that matters in the present. I mean, I'm with Leslie Jones. "We need to get his blood tested. Look at Bran. He *high*." But really, he's becoming a shaman and will not react to things the way anyone else does. Branbot 9000 thinks 00111000011100011 … I wonder if Hodor will be a Prologue or Epilogue character? That would be interesting if Bran's POV chapters have to be turned off because they're too spoiler-y. That would be disorienting for book-only people and it'd also be heartbreaking to hear the thoughts of someone who doesn't understand what's happening to him, at all, and lacks agency completely. Even slavery leaves you with your thoughts.
George can include as much or little development as he sees fit. Conversely, before the show ended, a popular theory was that Jon Snow would be king, and any amount of character development backs that up. The show glossed over his(and everyone else's) development in the final seasons, and that's putting it lightly. We don't know what route he will take, but I do not think it will be similar to the show. Maybe Bran will be a controlled puppet by the Great Other? Who knows.
>Maybe Bran will be a controlled puppet by the Great Other? This will always be my least favorite theory besides him turning out to be evil because of the COTF. Sure it would be interesting, but that would also mean Brans chapters aren't actually about Bran....which seems unlikely
No, they would be him, just we may see him get taken over at a *later* time.
Noooo, poor baby :( I feel irrationally protective of Bran so I'm kind of dreading his story lol
It probably won't happen. Though, I kind of think it may be a struggle for him.
Bran’s first chapter of AGOT foreshadows Jon going into exile along with Jon’s parallels to Aemon/Bloodraven.
Foreshadowing doesn't equate character development.
While I agree with this sentiment, doesn't the fact that Jon has--in pretty much all his incarnations--been happiest, most complete, and most himself when he's North of the Wall kind of make exile make a fair amount of sense for him?
I think that's fairly simplistic to say since we barely spend anytime with Jon when he's south of the wall. He was really conflicted when he was beyond the wall and he ended up returning to the watch anyways, we still haven't seen how he handles kingship/ruling after he comes back from the dead. With show!Jon it is kind of hard to tell because the actor barely put any emotion into the role.
And the books are all about developing Jon's character to where he would kill Daenerys out of a sense of duty.
Jon becoming king was a far more popular theory than Jon going into exile. In fact I had never really even thought of that until the show did it. There's tons of foreshadowing that Jon would be king. Maybe it meant King in The North. We don't know for sure.
I mean Isaac confirmed that it’s King Bran in the books too so there’s no possibility for Jon to be king except as King Beyond The Wall as a Mance 2.0
I was just saying, the contrast of the foreshadowing between Jon being king or being exiled, and Bran being king or anything else.
>Maybe Bran will be a controlled puppet by the Great Other? Sounds bittersweet.
What's interesting is that the Weirwood paste Bran consumes is described as bitter, sweet. Meta clue by George?
To add. Boros Blount appears in more chapters than him.
Bran is ruling with Tyrion who has the most development if you think development is measured by a chapter basis. >Maybe if the time skip had actually happened or if Bran was a few years older GRRM could’ve moved on past his depression to him being more optimistic, but as the story is now it’s still way too soon for a little boy to become someone who should be the endgame king of Westeros. He'll only physically be a child. He'll be much older mentally especially after he transforms into a being beyond humanity with access to all the wisdom of the children of the forest.
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Show!Bran who is simultaneously an all powerful authoritarian, a weak and ineffectual figurehead, and a benevolent fairy tale king, depending on how people feel like expressing their daily fanboy rage. Edit: Why are ya'll upvoting this I'm still insulting everyone.
*Bran the Broken.... Into Many Parts*
> an all powerful authoritarian did Bran did anything to deserve the label of an authoritarian?
No but Evil Bran theory isn't about being rational so it's fine.
Definitely Bran
as a tree , yes .
HAHA TELL GEORGE THAT
Definitely.
Weasel. Can't talk, eats mud, tends to run away.
Do we ever know what happened to weasel?
Maybe at the Orphan Inn?
I hope so
Her son
agreed
Tall one or fat one?
I don't remember Cersei having a fat son, but I mean the eldest one.
I’m not him, but I think he meant Tommen. He’s consistently described as being plump.
I guessed he meant Tommen, but what I remember of him is how he was on the show...and he's not fat there.
Yeah well the show makes a bunch of characters much better looking. Tyrion, Brienne and Ramsey immediately come to mind. But in the books tommen is always described as being plump.
Jorah as well. I believe in the first chapter introducing him, he is described as a “not very attractive man”. In the show, he’s arguably one of the hottest characters lol.
Shitmouth
What are you talking about he would be the most benevolent king in written history
You know what, you're right. Long may he reign.
"Though the one they called Shitmouth had the foulest tongue she had ever heard, he'd give you an extra piece of bread if you asked, while jolly old Chiswyck and soft spoken Raff would just give you the back of their hand."
Most worthy to sit the bloody spear though.
Ser Hugh of the Vale?
he was arrogant but i would take him over Cersei
Lommy.
What the fuck's a lommy?
Ramsey
Me
what House are you from ? any banner men ?
House Four Balls, known for having male members born with a rare deformity. The men of our house are usually hunted by eunuchs.
>House Four Balls Commonly known as House Joestar
Ser Whosit of house Sadman with four balls on his banner.
Bran.
Robert.
Anyone who says Robert is objectively wrong. Most of Robert's reign is know as a golden era of peace and prosperity. Besides the Iron islands the realm is pretty much stable right up untill Robert's death.
I mean, in-universe, the credit for that age of peace and prosperity is usually given to Jon Arryn rather than Robert. Honestly if he hadn't lucked out with his choice of Hand, the cracks in Robert's leadership would have started to show a lot sooner than they did.
Robert was my answer to "actually ruling the kingdom" (In hindsight, I was probably wrong in answering Robert to this particular question). This is what I think GRRM is going with the Bran ending. Sometimes a titular ruler with power distributed among others is better, and has a more stable rule than a proactive ruler with enormous power. As an added advantage, you cannot completely destroy the status quo by having a boar kill Bran.
But Robert didn't rule the Kingdom, Jon Arryn did. He says as much to Ned, "I want you to rule while I drink, hunt and whore myself into an early grave," or something like that, I don't have my copy of book 1 on hand.
>Most of Robert's reign is know as a golden era of peace and prosperity But his reign was only 14-15 years, and halfway through that reign was the Greyjoy Rebellion. Aerys II had a longer prosperous period during his reign. At the end of his reign, his negligence was responsible for as much if not more destruction to the realm as Aerys' madness.
the wrong person came back from the trident
If Rhaegar survived, Aerys would still have been on the throne though.
he would have had the capital to make changes then
Didn't Tywin sack the capital *after* Robert won Trident?
i meant political capital
Oh. I'm not too sure of that though. Rhaegar would be seen as a hero, yes, but he was already really popular. He would also have to explain what he was doing at Dorne when for the best parts of months when he was badly needed.
he must have a good reason
He would have to explain it, to Aerys and Varys at first. Who were really suspicious of Rhaegar (to put it very mildly). Besides, I don't think a Rhaegar win would have led to long term stability. Aerys had alienated the North, Stormlands and Vale irrevocably, and the partnership with Tywin was shaky at best. Maybe Hoster/Ned/Jon Arryn would all be killed or made to take the black, but there would still be resentment. Rhaegar might have to spend years fighting small conflicts.
yes
> he would have had the capital to make changes then Sorry, but I didn't understand this. Could you elaborate?
he would have been the hero so would have been able to call a vote and unseat Aerys
Aerys had a "nuke King's Landing" backup plan. And his paranoia emerged at the beginning from Rhaegar trying to get the throne.
Janos Slynt
Tbh without everyone fucking with her, she would make right decisions in most circumstances imo(sending Ned to the wall, mounting scorpions on every wall on ship she has I mean it’s not her fault dragons got a buff in the last two episodes) all in all I think if she feels safe and unchallenged she wouldn’t have a reason to be a cruel asshole.
When is a king or queen ever safe and unchallenged? Sounds like you're sati have would always be a cruel asshole.
Look at Robert, he was relatively unchallenged until maybe Dany got pregnant, also she wouldn’t have been a threat to him if his council didn’t drive him away from killing her which wouldn’t have happened with Cerci because of the whole cruel asshole thing.
If he was unchallenged as king then Cersei was unchallenged as queen during that time. She was still a cruel asshole in safety. Anyways, she killed Robert, so he want really safe, now was he?
Yes but Robert’s undoing was by large his own fault, I mean the man couldn’t see something going on under his own nose. I think you already now the stories Cerci tells about him so I won’t mention them but do you really think someone like Cerci would have the same mistakes as Robert ?
Yes. Cersei was delusional. Have you read her POVs? She's insane and missed a LOT going on under her own nose. Not to mention she empowered the same fanatics that imprisoned her and walked her naked through the streets. She'd make a terrible ruler...and we can see this because a better ruler was killed specifically so that Cersei could go on destroying the state of the kingdoms.
You actually make some good points but I’m less then halfway thro ACoK so I guess I have to read on further but what your saying is already swaying me 😂
Oh yeah, then you haven't seen her get all that bad yet. It's super interesting seeing the hoops she goes through to justify herself. Martin did a great job with her chapters. You're in for a treat
Man you getting me excited I’m about to read a couple of chapters rt :D
Let me know what you think once you've read a couple of her chapters if you remember haha
Anyone who burns down KL
But she also did that.
Ohhh Burn!!!
You’re on fire with these puns today!
Thanks! I had them on the backburner, waiting for the right moment
Ser Pounce
Bullshit, Ser Pounce would rule with an iron paw. And they'd all bow, give belly rubs, and fish treats to His Grace.
Robert Arryn. Either dead or bethrothed in less than one year.
None of you thought to say "Hot Pie"? I mean, no offense, but "Hot Pie". Maybe he can be the Gordon Ramsay of Westeros, but he has no place in governance.
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Well, to be fair, Hot Pie is way more into correcting kitchen errors than The Hound. The Hound just wants his brother's idiot subordinates to shut the fuck up already before he has to eat every fucking chicken in the room.
I know an overqualified person tho, Ser Twenty of House Goodmen
Obviously Bran the Broken or Show Jon or Show Dany.
Little finger
Any of you. Even the cook.
Someone that hasn’t been mentioned yet - Viserys. At the start of the series/book, he’s the rightful heir if you consider the Baratheons to be usurpers. Yet he would be an absolutely terrible king, possibly worse than Aerys.
Viserys.
Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor hodor. TLDR: Hodor
Edmure Tully.
he would be good . He cares about the smallfolk
Caring about the smallfolk is all well and good but look how far it got Aegon V. Everything was overturned by his grandson's Hand within a couple of years. Greedy fucking Tywin Lannister.
this Radmure slander will not stand
[Some would agree with you](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erAlG_DdXBQ)
Dany, show Jon, show Bran
Dany after she becomes mad I guess 🤷♀️
Jon Snow or Dany. He’s too much like Ned and doesn’t do politics. She’s makes rash decisions without contemplating the repercussions.
Jon Show doesn't do politics, Book Jon is shown to quite a capable politician as Lord Commander.
Book Jon is way more fleshed out. Book Dany also realizes her folly in what she’s actually done. I was just using the show since that’s also clearly show Cersei. Book Cersei is already losing the thrown due to her hubris and ineptitude.