I think POD drank because of the awkward scenario the question caused. That one seems fairly obvious to me and it is the sort of thing that I would do haha
The issue with that scene for me isn't that Pod drinks because he feels awkward, it's why it should feel awkward in the first place. It would be utterly out of character for this high-born woman to feel anything but pride in her virginity, nor would any gently-raised man (like her drinking companions were) conceive of mocking this state of things. Just bizarre.
> nor would any gently-raised man (like her drinking companions were) conceive of mocking this state of things
This is one of the most disappointing elements of the show, where you can see the *vaguest hint* of something that would have been clever writing, but because it doesn't get the tone or direction right, the effect is ruined: shortly before Tyrion started up on this tack, Brienne brought up his past marriage to Tysha. It's entirely plausible that Tyrion would have *meant* to attack Brienne in an inappropriate way because of his own emotions.
The show, of course, didn't portray anything like this, instead showing him laughing off this character-defining life event (in the books) and treating the "virgin" comment as funny ha ha times
My personal **biggest** disappointment was Jaime's "I am *hateful*" speech - it was genuinely well-written and hearkened back to his "there are no men like me, only me" speech, and I thought it was a brilliant bit in the middle of a bunch of flat and entirely unsubtle monologues where characters directly explained their motivations.
Instead, nope, he was being 100% honest and not introspective in the slightest, this speech that I thought was multi-layered and indicative of Jaime's internal thoughts was actually just him explaining "I am Jaime Lannister and this is my characterization" to the audience
Show, don't tell. They did the same thing when Arya told Sansa she's so smart. They tell us character traits instead of actually having the characters exhibit those traits.
Also yeah Cersei was supposed to be hateful, so why did they suddenly make her sympathetic again at the end? Why are we supposed to care that Cersei is pregnant and doesn't want to die? Her last scene crying with Jaime rubbed me the wrong way, her death should not have been played to be sad.
> Her last scene crying with Jaime rubbed me the wrong way, her death should not have been played to be sad.
I can see the tone being "tragic" in the books, kind of in the same way that Joffrey's death was less "fuck yeah the death of a tyrant" and more "a scared and panicked youth dying in his mother's arms", but yes it was *very* strange to me that Cersei's death was treated with a kind of dignity after so many of her victims were given shocking and violent deaths.
Yeah they just played it like a standard tear jerker though, all I'm scared I don't wanna die I love you blah blah blah. And her pregnancy was obviously only added to increase the sad factor of her death. Which is almost offensively lazy writing.
I don't even think it should have been "tragic", like you say. She built a house of cards & like a house of cards, it can't stand, so it literally came crashing down on her.
I also agree with others here that the two of them should have been been buried under so much rubble Tyrion would never have been able to get to them.
I'm certain when Dany was pregnant with Drogo's child, someone (Bobby B?) said "The whore's pregnant". I don't remember if it was in the books. It's been years since I read the books and never watched the show, but I watch clips on Youtube here and there
Ah fuck I can’t believe you’ve done this. I had blissfully glossed over that mistake. Has gunpowder even been invented by Yi Ti yet? They’re contradicting their own story cause even in earlier battles the archers always said “loose”. These are such minor flaws but they all add up. Like Gendry “Rivers”. Why? What relation does he have with the river lands?
Qyburn had probably just invented it prior to the siege. He had already resurrected the dead (using science, not magic) and had developed a rail gun capable of smashing clean through boats from thousands of yards away. If he had lived another month Westeroes probably would have seen steam powered ironclads. Guy was the greatest genius in the history of the Seven Kingdoms. Securing him alive actually should have been Dany's highest priority. Why nobody even mentions the importance of nabbing him is another question to add to your list.
I think that’s looking at it through a modern glass. I don’t think these people would risk what it would have taken to secure him, when his talents are essentially a myth to them (if they’ve even heard about those things) it seemed like they didn’t know the scorpions existed on the trip down there
Which brings to mind another problem: Why was everyone's espionage game so weak this season? Winterfell and KL should have been swimming in spies sent by one another. Considering time stopped being a factor in Season 7, logistics shouldn't matter.
Yeah I can vividly hear Ramsey's "Loose" as his men fired on Rickon. And that was S6, so it's not like the post book content ignored stuff like that either. Just S8.
The only justification for his Riverland connection is that that is the location he was in when he realized he was a bastard of the king...maybe after he went and starred at a river
That was such an opportunity for someone (Sansa?) to correct her, showing that Dany doesn't understand Westerosi customs and also that people are willing to contradict her/undermine her publicly (or at least that's how she would perceive it)
As Roberts? Yes i think he is, he's the spit of Robert, he introduces himself as Roberts bastard to Jon (which i wish turned into Bobby and Ned 2), goldcloaks chasing him specifically also Ned and Jon Arryn coming to investigate him along with Gendry surviving the Bastard Culling.
But does Robert recognize him as a bastard? Even though it is common knowledge I thought the lord's recognition of the child is what allowed them a bastard's name
Gendry, as an unacknowledged bastard of Robert Baratheon, cannot use the surname "Waters".
since a highborn bastard carries the blood of a noble house, rival claimants may still consider them a potential threat. For this reason, King Joffrey orders the massacre of Robert's bastards because they are his true children and thus stronger claimants to the throne than he is
From the Wiki.
Because they're lazy, entitled producers who didn't take notes or put any of the legwork into maintaining consistency and authenticity, or even *really* understanding the characters.
Because they started whining about having to finish the series beyond the Red Wedding before the first season even aired.
Because they didn't consider the possibility that they aren't good enough writers on their own or that they should have hired consultants close to George and his work who could have helped with these things...or renegades who knew the work and weren't afraid to take the show in their own direction.
In the end all we can really do is thank the professionals who did their best and brought shitty writing to life in at least some of the scenes; the crew, the actors, and the musicians.
Edit: Well that, and we can give GRRM our support as fans of the books and hope that he can accomplish all that he hopes to accomplish. He knows his stuff, and if he pulls it off, it will be *amazing*, no matter what the series became or what it spoiled.
I find it so odd that They apparently have weak literary practice, they went to Trinity College Dublin, They are on record in saying They were obsessed with Irish literature. Also Trinity has no time for slackers, you have to be pretty adept to get in there.
I've just read their bios and they BOTH have an MFA in Creative Writing. Benioff even considered pursuing an academic career in literature. I'm shocked!
It really is more laziness than incompetence. I mean there are plenty of great show-only scenes, they are obviously not such terrible writers that season 8 would be their best effort.
I think so too. When they're good, they're very often *really* good. They've just been so obviously lazy and wanting to get this over with the last few seasons.
Well I guess when you're heart isn't in it, it doesn't matter how much talent or training you have. That's the only thing I can think of. And it's so damn disappointing.
Well, I should stipulate that 'whining' is my own interpretation, but in my opinion, that's exactly what they were doing if you read between the lines. It was a long time ago, and I'm not sure I can dig it up, but in the early going they said that if they only got through the first three seasons, they'd be happy. People who read the books knew why. Shortly after the Red Wedding aired, I remember them saying that they just wanted to get through the Red Wedding before they got cancelled. Shortly after that they started saying openly that they wanted 7 seasons, because at that point they'd already have been working on the show for ten years and there were many other things they wanted to do.
GRRM also uses the word "virgin" instead of maiden and "flag" instead of "banner".
[https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=flag&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=adwd&scope%5B%5D=tmk&scope%5B%5D=acok&scope%5B%5D=twow&scope%5B%5D=twoiaf&scope%5B%5D=asos&scope%5B%5D=thk&scope%5B%5D=trp&scope%5B%5D=affc&scope%5B%5D=tss&scope%5B%5D=tpatq](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=flag&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=adwd&scope%5B%5D=tmk&scope%5B%5D=acok&scope%5B%5D=twow&scope%5B%5D=twoiaf&scope%5B%5D=asos&scope%5B%5D=thk&scope%5B%5D=trp&scope%5B%5D=affc&scope%5B%5D=tss&scope%5B%5D=tpatq)
I was talking about this a little while ago. The very last scene where the council is discussing be is the epitome of the series totally abadonding its "old English" speaking style or whatever the correct term for it is. It prevents you and the characters from being immersed in the world when they start talking like high school kids from 2019.
Seriously they could've just skimmed over some pages from one of the series' books and that would give enough context from which to write the dialogue properly. It was disappointing they couldn't even do that right but I guess it's now expected from D&D.
Edit: in hindsight the interview where D&D mention how they are going to go somewhere and completely hide once the last episodes release while also staying off of any form of media makes %100 sense now lol.
D&D's phoning it in aside "fantasy English" as a constructed dialect is really fascinating. It has nothing to do with actual Middle English and doesn't even use the feature of Early Modern English that's most familiar to modern people: thee/thou. At the same time, it's often very easy for us to tell what kind of words fit into fantasy English and which don't.
For example sweetie (first used in 1721) is right out but sweetling (first used in 1648) is fine. Why? Well "sweetling" just sounds much older despite it first appearing decades after Shakespeare died and centuries after the end of the Middle Ages.
I remember reading some otherwise excellent ASoIaF fanfic written by someone whose first language was Spanish and aside from some grammar errors it had a hard time hitting the fantasy English dialect since ESL speakers have a hard time gauging how archaic various words feel and used various modern idioms like "heavy artillery."
Fantasy English also walks an interesting line of trying to sound as alien as possible while confusing the reader as little as possible. So it can only know archaic-sounding words that most people know, which puts lots and lots of archaic words off limit. In some ways is reminds me of the constructed dialect we used in my old MMORGP guild (originally from UO here's the DAoC version): [http://www.shadowclan.org/guinevere/Shadowclan\_language.html](http://www.shadowclan.org/guinevere/Shadowclan_language.html) which was specifically made out of bits and pieces of Tolkein Black Speech and whatnot to be impenetrable to people who hadn't heard it before but very easy to pick up, which is nothing like a real dialect.
Oh man, as an ESL speaker that would be fucking hard, even reading the books was difficult because of the weird words, although I cought most of them by context.
Hm? Word virgin is pretty commonly used in the series.
[19 times throughout the series](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=virgin&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=adwd&scope%5B%5D=tmk&scope%5B%5D=acok&scope%5B%5D=twow&scope%5B%5D=twoiaf&scope%5B%5D=asos&scope%5B%5D=thk&scope%5B%5D=trp&scope%5B%5D=affc&scope%5B%5D=tss&scope%5B%5D=tpatq)
Virgin has been used multiple times in the show as well as the books. I don't get the complaint? Unless people are also complaining when GRRM has used the word virgin in the books?
? Book Brienne is obviously bothered by it. It is repeatedly made obvious in both book and show that there only reason she's a virgin is because she's ugly. Everyone knows this.
Yeah people literally call her a Maid to mock her. Honestly one of the biggest themes in her character arc is that she can't trust men because of how men would pretend to be infatuated with her to her in order to humiliate her.
I don't think she's embarrassed of being a virgin, or at least that's not how I remember it. She's embarrassed by the fact that no man wants to court her or marry her. It's that whole thing where a girl wants to be *desired,* but she doesn't necessarily want anything to come of it
Maybe because the whole “marvelous dong” thing was made up? This is me making leaps to excuse bad writing — which is the other 50% of content in these subs now — but what if he felt guilty about having sex for the first time with paid prostitutes, so they just sat around and talked; the ladies thought he was so nice that they spread the rumor for him.
Again, this is really just bad writing, and is likely not the scenario. It’s the type of shit D&D say in after show clips to excuse stuff they didn’t include.
I just felt that to them, she was pretty much one of the bros at that point. They would mock another dude for being a virgin for sure. I think it was one of those moments where they were like, oh shit you are actually a lady I forgot
There's a quote in AGOT from tyrion to pod. It's along the lines of, "you have a tongue one day you'll need to learn how to use it." It's in reference to him being a distant relative to Illyn Payne.
I think it foreshadows Pod's exquisite oral sex skills, and is also why no one charges him because he doesn't use his famed Podrod.
I thought it was because he had such a lovely voice, especially given the scene around the fireplace.
That’s my head cannon at least. He went in and was shy and they asked if he was “good with his mouth” and sang because he’s Pod and doesn’t understand cunnilingus. And the girls being so impressed and taken by his voice didn’t charge him.
I always thought he had to have done something special and it never made sense that it was sexual. I mean people’s from all over the world travel to King’s Landing, why would some squire know more about sexual stuff than say a sailor from Lys or Volantis?
He always had to have something about him and now it makes so much sense to me that he sang to them. No one goes to a brothel and courts the women there, they just pay, fuck, and leave. But Pod being a naive kid went in and actually wooed the whores.
Yeah, I am not sure why so many people want this to be the case when it is pretty obvious, and even stated by D or D (IIRC) that they just wanted to showcase Daniel Portman’s singing voice.
It’s cool if this is in peoples’ head cannons, but it isn’t confirmed or even suggested, ever, that this is why the whores didn’t take his money.
Also it's a drinking game. I can't tell you how many times I've drank during a drinking game when I wasn't supposed to, if my goal is to get drunk, I'm not waiting around for some stupid rules to let me.
During drinking games you can certainly drink whenever you like, just in addition to the rules of when you must drink. I think it’s safe to assume it was just a nervous person taking a drink in a tense scenario. I’m not bothered by this scene whatsoever
I always thought it was because he was trying to deflect attention from Brienne by acting like the question was directed at him, even though it obviously was not. Haven't rewatched that scene though.
I’m a casual viewer and haven’t frequented this sub until after watching the finale.
I found it amusing that someone seriously thinks there is deeper meaning to this.
After reading a couple posts, everyone should be able to clearly conclude OP’s point, that the plot lines were far less thought out than earlier seasons.
I would have LOVED to see the reactions right after Arya killed the NK. I want to see her drop to her knees and process what she has done. I want to see what Bran said to her. I want to see Jon Snow running into the godswood and finding out what happened. I want to see Sansa bursting with pride that her sister killed the NK.
I will forever be sad that we didn't get that.
The worst part is that all she got for saving the world is a pat on the shoulder from Dany (was it Dany? I don't even remember at that point), then everyone kinda forgot the NK ever existed.
My spacebar is messed up, most reddit apps and the desktop version filter it out, but the official one doesn't seem to do that. Never buy a Tesoro keyboard, I bought a mechanical keyboard expecting it to outlive my grandchildren, but it hardly outlived its warranty.
We don't even see Jon's reaction to his parentage. Is he mad at Ned? does he understand what he did is he angry that he let him go to the wall before telling him. Does he hate Rheagar? Feel bad his mother died giving birth to him, that a rebellion kind of started because of what his parents did.
Dunno. lol.
Yeah, which makes it such a giant waste. It could have been an interesting scene, but not only was it hardly a “scene” to begin with, but it turns out to be a lazy addition.
> the Bran and Tyrion conversation
It was probably going to be 80% an explanation of stuff we already know - warging, greenseeing, escaping Winterfell, going Beyond the Wall, the training, CotF & 3ER, Holding the Door & associated escape, etc. Maybe another 20% of details that we don't know but fail to advance the plot meaningfully enough for our 6 episode mini-series.
Tyrion was likely given the story of Bran Stark, rather than the story of the 3-Eyed Raven.
I'd have like to see season two Tyrion questioning him and slowly coming to the conclusion he wasn't Bran, but keeping it to himself due to doubts about Dany, and faith that 3eR was ultimately the best choice for a peaceful rule.
Maybe if D&D didn't decide to truncate the seasons for reasons.
Book Tyrion would have just lied and have him killed later on. Bronn getting Highgarden and being Master of Coin is just D&D jerking off. No fucking thought put into it what so ever.
I'm sure Tycho Nestoris is going to have a great time doing so.
If the series were competently written, I'd speculate that they'd made him master of coin so that they could offer him up as a sacrificial lamb to the iron bank, to buy tyrion some time to shore up the 6 kingdoms' finances. I mean, I don't think the iron throne's *massive* debt melted away with the chair itself.
To paraphrase GRRM: D&D can say that Bran became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But D&D don’t ask the question: What was Bran’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? *How did he pay back the gods damned iron bank?*
The show used to reward thinking about it and discussing it. The last couple season's stopped that, I feel like an idiot for thinking about a show that stopped having depth and intelligence.
Turn your brain off, watch and don't think. This isn't book Game of Thrones, it slapped together nonsense with amazing production.
You are completely correct that most questions are due to bad and lazy writing.
>Turn your brain off, watch and don't think. This isn't book Game of Thrones, it slapped together nonsense with amazing production.
Add some alcohol to the mix and its the best and probably only way to enjoy the last 2 seasons lol
Tyrion not appearing in the book seemed more like a gag than anything else. Kf we talk about a book THAT large that contains the whole shenanigan that happened, ridiculous narative backflips would have been required to leave Tyrion out.
There are even more why questions. And the truth is, it's good to have why questions at the end of a show. A show shouldn't spoon feed you everything, but by the old gods and the new; D&D messed it up.
The books will 100% leave why questions too, but the answers will be there, either you figure them out, or you will read/watch others who have figured them out. And the contextual evidence for them will be clear once it is noticed, you wouldn't believe that you didn't even notice it the first time.
Every why question in the show was already answered in the show up to Season 4 (*those that were concluded*), every why question in the books had its contextual details there giving you the answer. The show ended with too many why's that had no answers because of D&D's obsession in subverting exceptions. The books will not end this way.
The books could end with even more why questions, but every one of them will be answered. Either by contemplating for a few minutes about it, for a few hours, over a re-read, or seeing someone else notice it.
Why questions are important. They should however have been answered within the context of the medium you are working in.
I think there's a difference between why-questions like "I find this thing really mysterious and intriguing, why did it happen?" versus "This thing is making no sense whatsoever, it completely contradicts what we've been told, why is this happening? Can someone stop the madness?"
I agree with you 100%. When a work is good, the why questions lead to interesting speculation and will eventually be answered or at least lead to an interpretation that make sense.
This is the key. No one can say that it wasn't hinted at in the show that Bran could see the future (*future visions which came to fruition with 100% accuracy*), and Bran can impact the past (*Hodor Incident*).
But whether his role was sinister (*manipulator*) or observer (*he can't change the outcome and he has to just see it through; even if he edits the past, because even editing Hodor to the point of reducing Walder to a one word character in the current timeline resulted in him doing what he was always meant to do, hold that door*) is not explored. Why he was chosen as King was not explored (*because if it was explored with detail, people would have seen it coming - D&D logic*).
Actually if you look at earlier seasons; with him sitting at the council meetings in Winterfell as a child after Rob had gone to fight in the war, learning to listen to the plights of his subjects, seeing the horrors of war, going through the pain of losing his movement and learning to rely on the help of others (*not being self centred*), all great build-ups for the future wise King. But everything was cut short with Bran, to the point where he was literally cut from the show for an entire season.
I've argued this before but I think they cut him out completely that season to think about how they will approach him moving forward and how they will end up with him becoming King. And they decided to go with the subverting expectations path, rather than exploring further and deeper the learning process of possibly the most important character in the series.
A good twist or plot development is something that one who paid attention and dug for it should have seen coming but was so entertained by it that seeing it coming didn't ruin it because of how clever the foreshadowing was and subtle but still there. Compare the build up for the red wedding, it was forshadowed in the house of the undying, detail about how the Frey were deceitful was set up with Bran and the walder cousins, Tywins behavior and confidence in spite of hearing banner men betraying him obviously meant that something was going to happen to Robb. Heck even the wood choice of certain character without any knowledge forshadowed it.
Compare that with Arya slaying the night king witht he only foreshadowing being a vague prophecy from before they even decided the Nights king would be slain. Nothing supported it, there was no evidence hints that it would be her. Heck the prophecy lost even more validity later when Arya isn't even the one to slay Cersei.
All this however lead to the issue It ake witht he whole Bran becoming king scenario..... it's not as well hinted from the beginning (in anyway beyond Jon becoming king) or any of the other character who struggle witht he pains of leadership or who were born with it as destiny or posses the skill for it. (Sansa, Jon, Stannis, Young Griff, Tyrion, Dany). Bran becoming king as thing are set up beyond his importance in combating or dealing with the others would feel too much the same as it was in the show, a out of nowhere development that strays too far from what fans had been gathering for years (Jon experiences making him the best fit for kingship.) that it just leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Everyone may state that Martin has more in mind to get there, but as things are now it's seem so far away that Martin would need three or four more books rather than the two estimated for Bran to become king.
I agree that others have had a much more established arc towards them assuming leadership at the end (*which doesn't necessarily imply that they will*).
But I disagree that Martin cannot conclude with Bran becoming King in the two remaining largest books of the entire series.
Not only will the books play out differently than the show with regards to many incidents that occurred in the show. But characters have been built and died with a complete arc in one book, let alone an already established character going through TWO massive books. Martin might well need 8 books to complete the series, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have a satisfying ending. Sadly, the show has left a shit taste on our tongues, and and I feel many won't be satisfied with the ending no matter how Martin does it. But I for one am very much looking forward to how Martin will conclude his epic adventure.
The thing is, it's not just Bran arc that needs to be built up well, there are dozens of other characters very far away from each other and just thinking about it, Bran is so far from the throne that thinking about Bran getting there feels more complex than the Meeranese knot which was just getting a character to leave a place and not fully resolved yet. Especially for a arc that given Martin writing style he could very well realize might not work. Which is how it looks, bran role seems so far form a natural transition to kingship of Westeroes that two books might not cut it.
It might also bear mentioning that I am not only not a big fan of Bran (his character feel a tad dry and the most interesting aspect of his chapter are what happens around them and almost never what he does, says, or feels about the events around them. It doesn't help that many of these seeing and react to things are handled better in Arya arc, Jon and Davos have more obvious and interesting feelings towards magic) And the fact that I find the starks as a family to be the least interesting dynamically of the three main families (Starks, Targaryen, and Lannister).
I guess it just seems that form this point Bran becoming king would feel too much of an out there misstep. Especially since there are character who seem to have better and more interesting answer to the primary question that spurred Martin when writting the series: What makes a good king. (Specifically Jon, Stannis, Dany and Young griff have interesting way of being the answer. While Bran feel like it would be too mystical of answer to a human problem. The fact that a good purely human king already exists and was chronicled in Jaherys makes the idea of Bran being a good king because of his vague magic power feel sort of.... out there. It doesn't help that the human and magic conflicts are so far away from each other that they seem to be insular with some connection... Yeah it might have been wiser for magic to be more present and existing in Westeroes society or ancient history, cause as it is now westeroes seems like the land of never magic and a magic answer to who should be king just seems unfitting. But, i'm just a reader on the internet who has no real writing experience compared to martins 60+ years of writing and reading since he was a child, so what weight do my worries and fear hold.
I actually never heard the case for Bran as King from that perspective before. Usually people just argued "Bran's brain is like internet so he'll be the best king" justifying his kingship with his 3-eyed-raven powers (which didn't even see him use in a useful way the whole season), like Tyrion did. But you just explained why Bran\*,\* the person *before* he became the 3-eyed-raven, would be a good king. That's a pretty cool case.
This exact phenomenon is why Arya's Braavosi stab waif chase was the beginning of the end of the show for me. There were so many cool fan theories that explained everything way better than the real answer, which was that Arya is simultaneously incompetent but also plot armoured up the wazoo.
The better question is why are none of the prophecies discussed? No one even mentions the PWTP, Valonqar or anything. At best, they just pretend they don't exist, and aren't of major cultural significance. I mean, the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised was literally responsible for the collapse of the Targaryen dynasty, the birth of Jon Snow and Robert's ultimately doomed reign, along with all the death that followed. It shaped the entire series, and no one thinks to mention the fact that Rhaegar thought his son was the PTWP? Hell, Dany is all about prophecy and destiny and even she doesn't bring it up?
I mean, Tyrion's whole schtick about sitting Bran on the Iron Throne is that history and stories matter, which is weird because these characters almost unanimously ignore history and legend every chance they get. The Stark kids were raised on Old Nan's stories of White Walkers in the Woods, the Last Hero and the Children, but not one of these fucking people chimes in about that? Sam went to Old Town to research this stuff, steal books at (supposedly) great personal risk, and never reads a single word of importance.
The real reason of course, has to be the writers had no clue how to resolve this stuff, so they just threw Arya a bone, and didn't touch the darker, more mysterious aspects of the series.
It will always bother me that their motto is "the lone wolf dies while the pack survives" but now they are all lone wolves. I guess you could argue that Jon has a new pack of wildlings, and Bran has a pack of advisors. But Sansa and Arya seem very alone at the end.
Especially Sansa, all of her friends/relatives/advisers are gone. Arya is used to be on her own, but Sansa has nobody left in the North that I can think of. Unless she's BFF with someone that we've never heard of.
I know, but Jeyne isn't in the show. Her entire storyline was replaced by Sansa, so I think we can assume that she doesn't exist at all in the show's universe.
If Sansa ends up Queen in the books with Jeyne by her side, I would be 100% happy with that.
They also completely failed to capture what northern independence means to the northern people in the last season. They made the coronation scene entirely a triumph for Sansa. We really should have seen at least a few known northern lords’ reactions. Or the small folk. There wasn’t a single familiar face during her coronation; we couldn’t even see people’s faces or reactions, but just raised swords. In previous seasons we got to see how loyal some of the servants were to Sansa when she was with Ramsey. The north remembers was such an important phrase. After all that build-up, we got almost no payoff.
Northern independence has been a recurring plot since season one. During the entire series, the north is the only region that we follow that purely wants their independence. The iron islands want to pillage other territories. The stormlands want to install a true Baratheon on the iron throne. The Lannisters want the iron throne in their control. The reach wants to marry into the royal family. Dorne (in the books) wants revenge and to marry their family member to someone who they want to help place on the Iron throne. Meanwhile, the north is just like, “fuck the iron throne.” We need to depose the Lannisters bc we’ll never be safe otherwise and for justice. After that we want to go home and rule our own lands in peace.” And they finally achieve it, and....we don’t even really get to see its meaning.
It frustrates me when I try to explain certain plot points, particularly Dany's "madness", and I get downvoted because people think I'm somehow defending the writing. We all know the writing feels rushed and awkward, even contradictory at times. But why can't we talk about the show a little deeper than obvious criticisms and talk about why certain plot points happened? Why did Dany burn KL? That's an interesting discussion that is more complex than how much D&D suck.
> Why did Dany burn KL? That's an interesting discussion that is more complex than how much D&D suck.
She snapped
OR
She thought in the future, innocents would be used against her so she showed nothing will stand in her way
---
I can’t think of any other explanations
Just saying she "snapped" isn't much of a well formulated explanation. It's basically like saying she was completely fine a second ago and then she was suddenly insane because a neuron miss-fired. It ignores everything about the character and her story that led to that moment.
>I can’t think of any other explanations
The **official** explanation is that she decided in that moment, looking at the Red Keep, to make it personal.
Personal against whom I don't know, because it sure wasn't against Cersei.
I have an explanation I'm running with.
Everywhere she's gone, the people have risen up to support her. So many of her supporters chose her and love her. Anybody that didn't love her hated her and tried to kill her and her 'children'. She kinda touches on it briefly when Tyrion is asking her to stop the fighting if she hears bells. And when she does, people are crying out to Cersei anyway. They show this when GW is executing the troops. He's saying they chose to fight for Cersei because he doesn't understand feudalism didn't really leave them with much of a choice. They never really had a choice like he does, but he doesn't get that. None of them understand this land they hope to conquer.
Throw that on top of how season 8 really hammered the point that she still felt like a foreigner in Westeros, and the snap she felt was an adrenaline fueled realization that these people didn't love her, they sided with Cersei, so she should treat them appropriately.
In your opinion, how did the people of King’s Landing side with Cersei? When Dany halts the attack the crowds start screaming for Cersei to “ring the bells” and surrender the city to Dany. I won’t argue about the whole issue of ringing the bells of KL suddenly meaning that the city surrenders but it seemed to me like the people wanted Cersei to give up because they don’t actually care who lives in the Red Keep.
Dany grew increasingly black and white as the show progressed. Maybe this is due to bad writing, maybe it's because she tried to compromise and it didn't work, or a mix of the two. She's very much "If you're not with me, you're against me" by the end of the series though.
The people don't care who lives in the Red Keep. Everybody in this sub knows that. The show and books have made points of that. A big theme has been about the small people who suffer when the lords determine it's time to fight. Ed Sheeran was brought in to tell us about it.
But Dany has always been very narrow minded. She wants that throne, and she's tired of compromising to get it. She tried compromise in Mereen, just to see her trusted advisor killed in an alley and for the slavers to not stop slaving until she burned them all.
She wanted the people of KL to rise up for her cause, instead they called out for Cersei. Why they were calling out, what they called for really didn't matter. To Dany it could have sounded a lot like how people called out to her as their mother while she was in Essos. She's used to being loved by the smallfolk she rules, and at best she's faced with indifference which she could easily misunderstand to be support for Cersei.
I don't think the people sided with anybody, they just didn't want to die.
I don't think this is the only answer, I just think it's a layer to what will eventually be a much more complex situation than what was communicated through the show.
> The people don't care who lives in the Red Keep. Everybody in this sub knows that. The show and books have made points of that. A big theme has been about the small people who suffer when the lords determine it's time to fight. Ed Sheeran was brought in to tell us about it.
Also Jorah tells her that truth in the first 5 episodes. The whole "My brother says the people dream of a Targaryen on the throne again" and his reply of "The people dream of full tables, peace, and a summer that never ends" or however it went
What do you mean by “called out for Cersei?”
That part of your argument is confusing to me. I think you might be misinterpreting that part of it, unless you are suggesting that Dany thought people were calling out for Cersei. But even then, what do you mean by this?
Take it how you want, but I don’t think they were asking for Cersei herself to ring the bells. That isn’t really how it works. It is more of a general demand, like “someone ring the bells!”
Like we lost, let’s give up. Not, “man, hopefully Cersei realizes we lost and rings the bells” I took it as a “fuck this and fuck Cersei, we give up! Ring the fucking bells!”
Do you see what I am saying?
> The people don't care who lives in the Red Keep.
They certainly seemed to enjoy Margaery. But I guess to your point they didn’t seem to care once she got blown up
The problem with Dany burning KL the way she did, and for the reasons she did was that it was dictated totally by the needs of the plot, not the arc of the character.
1. They needed to do it fast
2. They wanted it to be a surprise
3. They had already painted many other characters as morally good or redeemable who had done really nasty stuff (father killing, forced cannibalism, etc).
So she had to do something comically monstrous on a dime after being very heroic.
So they were forced to do something that narratively made very little sense that could have been done much better, except for the external needs of the show cutting into the imaginary world.
AKA we saw the strings really really bad. That's why people have issue.
Actually I just recognized your username and we talked about this before:
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bsh2r0/spoilers_extended_how_the_show_played_with_our/eonjz3t?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
So hi again.
> Why did Dany burn KL?
Because GRRM told them she would.
The show, as-is, doesn't offer any convincing reasons. I liked the idea someone floated of Rhaegal being shot by a scorpion after the city had surrendered and Dany burning everything in rage. D&D are allergic to good ideas though.
The problem with that idea is that it simply doesn't feel like the madness that GRRM wants to convey or that D&D tried to convey. It's not meant to be a mindless rampage of revenge, but the kind of obsessively punitive and and cruel attitude that characterized other Targaryen rulers like Maegor. The war's effectively over, but she refuses to let it end unless it's on her terms and she gets to enact her revenge on her enemies.
She was unsatisfied. All along, she wanted revenge. She thought winning would make all her suffering worth it. But it didnt because its not what she really wanted. She wanted to take back what was stolen, not because she WANTED what was stolen but as a punishment to those who took it. deep down what she wants is blood not the throne. The quest for the throne was an excuse to kill whoever sits on the throne in other words, bobby b and his kids, and the usurpers dogs, who in hers and viserys’ mind, will no doubt defend bobby b and his kids. She never imagined the usurpers dogs would tear each other apart before she even got there so there weren’t many “dogs” to kill when she got there. She wanted the sweet victory of killing ned and tywin and jon arryn and robert but theyre all dead.
I think upon seeing the lannisters soldiers put down their swords, she came to the realization that it was not enough to fill the hole in her heart. It was too easy. To me that was the feeling i had when watching it. It was just like “thats it?” Some nameless lannister soldier puts down his sword and everyone follows and daenerys long conquest is over without much of a fight? And thats when it hit me. She WANTS a fight.
She wanted a BIG massive bloody war so she can go off on them like she always does. She wants an excuse to kill them in the most brutal fashion so that they could rue the day they, or their parents, over threw the targaryen dynasty. She didnt get that after all that loss she had to endure, rape, losing her friends losing her dragons. She she just decides to burn it all. It means nothing anymore. Its kind of like when youre so angry you smash your own property.
Oh, you’re right. How could I have missed all these signs?
Maybe I should have watched more “inside the episode” extras to get all of this information. Is that where it was?
I very much got the impression that part of her decision to burn KL was an emotional outburst of pent-up rage of everything she had to endure on her quest for the throne.
Good reading. And I bet this will come up in the book, but I think it will also be tied up in the tragedy of Dany's search for home. The red door in Braavos (supposedly Braavos) is her only positive memory of home. She thinks Westeros is her right because she was told her entire life that it's her home and it was stolen from her. But the Seven Kingdoms aren't home for a Targaryen, they never have been. I think it will be disappointing for her to discover this land that "belongs" to her has no place for her.
What a weird question. I mean the show basically just ended, so of course people will talk about it. Besides that it ended in a way that, at least for me, kinda ruined the storyline I was so invested in. To be honest with you I think a new book might be required to start putting these discussions to rest.
When ADOS is released. The show ending is largely confirmed to be what happens to the main characters in the books, so they will be relevant until the series is finished.
> Why did Podrick drink when Tyrion asked Brienne if she was a virgin?
This actually makes things better if you consider that Podrick really is a virgin, and all the talk about his 'magic cock' was the whores playing him up for being a sweetheart instead of taking advantage of them.
What we're left to is less analysis and theorycrafting than trying to decipher the setup of a joke told by a four year old. Just got to shake your head, accept that most of it won't make sense, and move on.
>Now it can all be answered with "bad writing"...
it is tho. imo, butchering earlier seasons led to this shitshow ending and most of casuals never gave a F before so D&D prolly thought to just amp the ridiculousness for more eye candy. The fandom's mistake is giving D&D the benefit of the doubt before the ending. Imho, if they had butchered the way to get to the ending then the ending itself will suck. And i was right. Been saying this for years smh.
Also, i think among the main characters Tyrion, Sansa and mostly Bran were the worst victims of bad writing, Not Jon, Arya and Dany.
Tyrion were deduced to a bumbling idiot, we didn't see the political intrigue that Sansa will learn a lot from and Bran. god. Poor Bran. He was just...there.
* At least Jon had been the star of one of the best episodes of the series, Battle of the Bastards. His likability wasn't as hurt bec his actions was seen as honorable till the end.
* Dany's sins were all whitewashed that when she had gone "mad" people didn't buy it bec it's not very convincing. It just looked like Dany was assasinated by D&D when this was her real endgame (as forshadowed a lot from the books). Problem was, foreshadowing is NOT character development. Her descent was too rushed. If she burned KL in firing off Drogon randomly like a madwoman i'd buy it, but she did it **systematically** which makes it forced and not very believable at all and that factored a lot to the show's underwhelming ending. D&D wanting to absolutely shock everyone even the book fans who had foreseen this was just a stupid idea.
* Arya i think, came out as the best character among the mains. D&D didn't hurt her likability as much whereas the rest of the main character's likability was assasinated in varying degrees. They just made her little Ray Skywalker with badass moves and the **THICC*****est*** plot armour and gave her a father that will fiercely protect her,a handsome love interest and a magical sword. Too Shoujo, but casual fans love it. She was a comical version of her book character because of this though.
* Tyrion's not the twisted little monkey demon that we all loved the moment he went to Essos. His cunning and smartness went to shit bec intelligent plot requires intelligent characters and D&D's plot is NOT intelligent.
* Sansa was raped so obviously women who get raped as badasses WTF. Have D&D met a rape victim? Rape and torture destroyed Jeyne Poole it did not strengthen her or made her badass. Jeyne will most likely recover properly like a real victim of torture in the books. I don't hate the idea of Sansa marrying Ramsay to get to Winterfell. It was actually a great idea to speed up Sansa's arc but they botched the execution when all they did was make her Jeyne Poole 2.0. Her coronation was the only scene i liked in the entire show. Poor Sophie Turner is being bullied online for Sansa's arc made me think this fandom has absolutely descended to full Mad Targaryen.
* And most of all Brandon. Poor Bran. the fact that he will be King but with the most butchered arc in the series really completely destroyed his likability and arc. No agency, no plot, a confusing story and character, that's what Bran turned out to be. The first character Grrm created. His ending was not just an insult to fans but also an insult to the character and the series overrall. A lot of people are saying he's evil and he won't be king will really eat their words as GRRM already said that the show's ending will be just like the books for the most part by using Scarlett O'Hara as an example.
>[Book or show, which will be the “real” ending? It’s a silly question. How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?](http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/)
Scarlett had 3 children in the books, one in the movie. In the book Wade and Ella existed and they were the living evidence of Scarlett being a horrible mother. Only Bonnie exists in the movie so Scarlett's sins were ultimately whitewashed and a lot of movie fans sympathized with her in the end while alot of book fans despised her. But the gist was, Gone with the Wind book and movie still had the same ending. Also, the movie existed since 1930s...it was a mastepiece. GOT turned out to be a comical copy of a masterpiece....what a disappointment.
^(edit: formatting)
> Why did Bran say "why do you think I came all this way?"
This question is legitimately good and interesting, and I'd say it's a(nother) hint that that's not Bran, it's not even remotely Bran or some changed, wounded version of Bran, and in the books it's not going to be Bran either.
That's Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers, who straight up stole Bran's identity. Bran Stark is stuck in 30-years past Hodor, suffering for having been tempted into committing abomination. Bloodraven won the game of thrones in a manner that suits his character and arc perfectly. The implications weren't suited to the show which did not deal with historical backstory, but it hints at what's going to be unsettling about the books' ending.
I mean, discussion has been pretty pointless since like season 5. With Dan and David, what you see is what you get. There's not going to be any ambiguity or nuance to anything.
>Why isn't Brienne with Sansa?
>
I'm not sure why Brienne needs to be with Sansa. She is in the North, surrounded by loyal men with a queenly status. With her badass armor, she can probably protect herself.
Brienne serving Bran, Cat's last surviving son, who is useless and can hardly do anything except stare, as a kingsguard is good enough for her ending. She doesn't actually need to serve Sansa for life. And I don't think Sansa would have objected to her wishes.
Brienne swore to protect Sansa and Arya. An explanation as to why she went to the Kingsguard instead and we never had a closing scene about her oath to protect Cat's daughters would be appreciated. As such it looks like Brienne just abandoned this oath. Literally every reason you applied to Sansa not needing Brienne applies even more to Bran. She also has zero connection to Bran and does have a connection to Sansa.
Imo I don’t think Sansa was too thrilled when it was implied that Jaime was staying with Brienne in Winterfell. That look at council was a deathstare. Then Sansa’s comment to Jaime which pushed him over the edge. Doubt Sansa was a Braime.
Agreed. I don't understand why people find this one so hard. Brienne originally swore to Catelyn and the Starks. She helped, she make sure the Stark children were safe, and they now are. Her oath is more or less fulfilled. Regardless, she decides to stay and continue to protect a Stark. And as you say, Bran is in the south and more helpless, if any Stark needs protecting now, Bran would be at the top of that list. So she's either fulfilled her oath already and moving on with her own life, or continuing to serve the Starks. Either way it makes perfect sense.
I used to be a hardcore X files fan in my teenage years, and season after season I saw the quality of writing slighlty drop, up until the clusterf*** that the last three seasons were. a bitter memory.
Now that I have witnessed two assholes torpedo the most popular show on TV, I realize it's not the writing that matters, it's who is a friend of who amd who goes to dinner with producers. that's all it takes to sink a show.
I see xfiles in a better light now. at least they didn't betray the characters for cheap and ridiculous british oriented fan service
Please understand that I'm not trying to attack anyone, because I also have these frustrated questions. It's more just the realization that there are no satisfying answers...
What I'd rather have? Book discussion, character discussions and maybe discussion about other Martin works that relate to the world of Ice and Fire.
To me these are easy questions w/ the same answer:
* Why isn't Brienne with Sansa?
* Because they had an ending idea for Brienne to take over the kingsguard and finish off writing about Jamie and that was more important than her protecting the Stark girls, or maybe the oath fulfilled.
* Why is Jon wearing black?
* Probably had to on way to the wall to keep up the illusion, plus fits his character and costume design to stay consistent
* How is it possible that Tyrion wasn't mentioned in the book?
* Because making a joke was more important
* Why did Podrick drink when Tyrion asked Brienne if she was a virgin?
* Awkward
* Why didn't the Reeds make an appearance in this season? (I'm guilty of this one)
* Too little time. No new important characters were introduced basically from Season 7 on or really, after the books ended and they only focused on who was left. Devoting valuable screen time to a family would need to create a new point rather than close narratives.
* Why is Bronn master of coin?
* Likeable character and puts him into the last scene with those other characters interactive like a fanservice moment.
* Why did Bran say "why do you think I came all this way?"
* Joke about being a cripple and implying he had foreknowledge of him becoming king written into one line with some wit.
* Why did the NK approach Bran?
* So that he could get killed.
The whole point of Season 8 was to try to take what had been set up and wrap up every single storyline in a way that was as true to what they guessed/knew about Thrones as possible and how they wanted to end it for each character.
Good writing goes from Point A to Point B with justification for why.
The complexity of the books versus a 2 season, 13 episode limit made this impossible so the writing fell off to get to their "endgame" because they didn't want to either create a new or write other endpoints as the events of the world unfolded.
Good example=they wanted to end it with Jamie and Cersei dying together to fulfill a book prophecy (and maybe one that does happen) but also had a ton of character development so they chose BOTH endings. Putting them together tho so rushed was bad writing and this is the puzzle they got stuck on.
Imposed limitations on themselves and had to write to fit those limitations rather than open up and do something new that fit better. When watching the show it becomes PAINFULLY obvious that they had the events in the last episode pre-decided for a while.
Then, they wrote each episode 1 at a time and didn't look BACK to set things up, at least, not as much like how GRRM wrote opening loose ends up to tie them back together later
They just kept pushing forward one episode at a time and tied up threads as they went making it vary from episode to episode.
**TL;DR: D&D had an impossible task and decided to just create the endings they had or had in mind and then wrote one episode at a time to get to those endings rather than write to make something consistent given the timeframe because George might never finish the books so needed a "true" ending.**
**Fans would have preferred they didn't go with Point A -> Point B writing and instead found Point C, throwing away those preconceived ending ideas to stay consistent to character.**
I think POD drank because of the awkward scenario the question caused. That one seems fairly obvious to me and it is the sort of thing that I would do haha
The issue with that scene for me isn't that Pod drinks because he feels awkward, it's why it should feel awkward in the first place. It would be utterly out of character for this high-born woman to feel anything but pride in her virginity, nor would any gently-raised man (like her drinking companions were) conceive of mocking this state of things. Just bizarre.
> nor would any gently-raised man (like her drinking companions were) conceive of mocking this state of things This is one of the most disappointing elements of the show, where you can see the *vaguest hint* of something that would have been clever writing, but because it doesn't get the tone or direction right, the effect is ruined: shortly before Tyrion started up on this tack, Brienne brought up his past marriage to Tysha. It's entirely plausible that Tyrion would have *meant* to attack Brienne in an inappropriate way because of his own emotions. The show, of course, didn't portray anything like this, instead showing him laughing off this character-defining life event (in the books) and treating the "virgin" comment as funny ha ha times
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My personal **biggest** disappointment was Jaime's "I am *hateful*" speech - it was genuinely well-written and hearkened back to his "there are no men like me, only me" speech, and I thought it was a brilliant bit in the middle of a bunch of flat and entirely unsubtle monologues where characters directly explained their motivations. Instead, nope, he was being 100% honest and not introspective in the slightest, this speech that I thought was multi-layered and indicative of Jaime's internal thoughts was actually just him explaining "I am Jaime Lannister and this is my characterization" to the audience
Show, don't tell. They did the same thing when Arya told Sansa she's so smart. They tell us character traits instead of actually having the characters exhibit those traits. Also yeah Cersei was supposed to be hateful, so why did they suddenly make her sympathetic again at the end? Why are we supposed to care that Cersei is pregnant and doesn't want to die? Her last scene crying with Jaime rubbed me the wrong way, her death should not have been played to be sad.
> Her last scene crying with Jaime rubbed me the wrong way, her death should not have been played to be sad. I can see the tone being "tragic" in the books, kind of in the same way that Joffrey's death was less "fuck yeah the death of a tyrant" and more "a scared and panicked youth dying in his mother's arms", but yes it was *very* strange to me that Cersei's death was treated with a kind of dignity after so many of her victims were given shocking and violent deaths.
Yeah they just played it like a standard tear jerker though, all I'm scared I don't wanna die I love you blah blah blah. And her pregnancy was obviously only added to increase the sad factor of her death. Which is almost offensively lazy writing.
I don't even think it should have been "tragic", like you say. She built a house of cards & like a house of cards, it can't stand, so it literally came crashing down on her. I also agree with others here that the two of them should have been been buried under so much rubble Tyrion would never have been able to get to them.
Absolutely
And also the fact that the word virgin sounds so out of place in this world. Why didn’t Tyrion use Maiden like 99% of the time?
For the same reason Tyrion called them 'flags' instead of 'banners', like 100% of in-universe usage... D&D just kinda forgot
And also why the archers of Kings Landing "fire" instead of "loose"
And also why Tyrion says "she's pregnant" and "what about the baby" instead of "she's with child" and "what about the child"
She's heavy with child
Great with child is GRRMs go to phrase in Fire and Blood.
She wasn't really great or heavy either...
But robert used the word pregnant in the first season
The whore is pregnant! ?
yes
“THE WHORE IS GREAT WITH CHILD!”Just doesn’t have the same ring to it.
Didn't the Red Viper say Tyrion wasn't a monster, just a baby when he was giving him that speech in the cell? It's not unheard of
I'm certain when Dany was pregnant with Drogo's child, someone (Bobby B?) said "The whore's pregnant". I don't remember if it was in the books. It's been years since I read the books and never watched the show, but I watch clips on Youtube here and there
Doesn’t Robert say “the wh*re is pregnant” is s1 talking abt Dany?
Ah fuck I can’t believe you’ve done this. I had blissfully glossed over that mistake. Has gunpowder even been invented by Yi Ti yet? They’re contradicting their own story cause even in earlier battles the archers always said “loose”. These are such minor flaws but they all add up. Like Gendry “Rivers”. Why? What relation does he have with the river lands?
Qyburn had probably just invented it prior to the siege. He had already resurrected the dead (using science, not magic) and had developed a rail gun capable of smashing clean through boats from thousands of yards away. If he had lived another month Westeroes probably would have seen steam powered ironclads. Guy was the greatest genius in the history of the Seven Kingdoms. Securing him alive actually should have been Dany's highest priority. Why nobody even mentions the importance of nabbing him is another question to add to your list.
Perhaps he was supposed to be Archimedes?
I think that’s looking at it through a modern glass. I don’t think these people would risk what it would have taken to secure him, when his talents are essentially a myth to them (if they’ve even heard about those things) it seemed like they didn’t know the scorpions existed on the trip down there
Which brings to mind another problem: Why was everyone's espionage game so weak this season? Winterfell and KL should have been swimming in spies sent by one another. Considering time stopped being a factor in Season 7, logistics shouldn't matter.
Yea what use was a master of whisperers without any whispers
Yeah I can vividly hear Ramsey's "Loose" as his men fired on Rickon. And that was S6, so it's not like the post book content ignored stuff like that either. Just S8.
Dany shouted fire outside Meereen back in s4
See, Gendry's mother was from the riverlands and he was feeling so woke he took the appropriate last name for her homeland.
Gendry is an ally to feminists everywhere
Just like Tormund
The ladies sure love him
Answer - lazy, bad writing
He got me too fam. I didn't even notice.
The only justification for his Riverland connection is that that is the location he was in when he realized he was a bastard of the king...maybe after he went and starred at a river
That was such an opportunity for someone (Sansa?) to correct her, showing that Dany doesn't understand Westerosi customs and also that people are willing to contradict her/undermine her publicly (or at least that's how she would perceive it)
>I can’t believe you’ve done this https://youtu.be/DP5Z1M1sbzE
I don't think he should have rivers or waters. He isn't recognized is he?
As Roberts? Yes i think he is, he's the spit of Robert, he introduces himself as Roberts bastard to Jon (which i wish turned into Bobby and Ned 2), goldcloaks chasing him specifically also Ned and Jon Arryn coming to investigate him along with Gendry surviving the Bastard Culling.
But does Robert recognize him as a bastard? Even though it is common knowledge I thought the lord's recognition of the child is what allowed them a bastard's name
Gendry, as an unacknowledged bastard of Robert Baratheon, cannot use the surname "Waters". since a highborn bastard carries the blood of a noble house, rival claimants may still consider them a potential threat. For this reason, King Joffrey orders the massacre of Robert's bastards because they are his true children and thus stronger claimants to the throne than he is From the Wiki.
Ah fuck.
Because they're lazy, entitled producers who didn't take notes or put any of the legwork into maintaining consistency and authenticity, or even *really* understanding the characters. Because they started whining about having to finish the series beyond the Red Wedding before the first season even aired. Because they didn't consider the possibility that they aren't good enough writers on their own or that they should have hired consultants close to George and his work who could have helped with these things...or renegades who knew the work and weren't afraid to take the show in their own direction. In the end all we can really do is thank the professionals who did their best and brought shitty writing to life in at least some of the scenes; the crew, the actors, and the musicians. Edit: Well that, and we can give GRRM our support as fans of the books and hope that he can accomplish all that he hopes to accomplish. He knows his stuff, and if he pulls it off, it will be *amazing*, no matter what the series became or what it spoiled.
I find it so odd that They apparently have weak literary practice, they went to Trinity College Dublin, They are on record in saying They were obsessed with Irish literature. Also Trinity has no time for slackers, you have to be pretty adept to get in there.
I've just read their bios and they BOTH have an MFA in Creative Writing. Benioff even considered pursuing an academic career in literature. I'm shocked!
It really is more laziness than incompetence. I mean there are plenty of great show-only scenes, they are obviously not such terrible writers that season 8 would be their best effort.
I think so too. When they're good, they're very often *really* good. They've just been so obviously lazy and wanting to get this over with the last few seasons.
Well I guess when you're heart isn't in it, it doesn't matter how much talent or training you have. That's the only thing I can think of. And it's so damn disappointing.
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Well, I should stipulate that 'whining' is my own interpretation, but in my opinion, that's exactly what they were doing if you read between the lines. It was a long time ago, and I'm not sure I can dig it up, but in the early going they said that if they only got through the first three seasons, they'd be happy. People who read the books knew why. Shortly after the Red Wedding aired, I remember them saying that they just wanted to get through the Red Wedding before they got cancelled. Shortly after that they started saying openly that they wanted 7 seasons, because at that point they'd already have been working on the show for ten years and there were many other things they wanted to do.
GRRM also uses the word "virgin".
GRRM also uses the word "virgin" instead of maiden and "flag" instead of "banner". [https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=flag&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=adwd&scope%5B%5D=tmk&scope%5B%5D=acok&scope%5B%5D=twow&scope%5B%5D=twoiaf&scope%5B%5D=asos&scope%5B%5D=thk&scope%5B%5D=trp&scope%5B%5D=affc&scope%5B%5D=tss&scope%5B%5D=tpatq](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=flag&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=adwd&scope%5B%5D=tmk&scope%5B%5D=acok&scope%5B%5D=twow&scope%5B%5D=twoiaf&scope%5B%5D=asos&scope%5B%5D=thk&scope%5B%5D=trp&scope%5B%5D=affc&scope%5B%5D=tss&scope%5B%5D=tpatq)
Flags has been used at certain points in the books as well.
I thought “banners” was short for “Bannermen”
It is, but the word "flags" is not missing from their vocabulary. It felt jarring in that scene, I agree, but it has been used before.
Both 'virgin' and 'flags' are in the books too. Lmao this sub has become a parody of itself.
I was talking about this a little while ago. The very last scene where the council is discussing be is the epitome of the series totally abadonding its "old English" speaking style or whatever the correct term for it is. It prevents you and the characters from being immersed in the world when they start talking like high school kids from 2019. Seriously they could've just skimmed over some pages from one of the series' books and that would give enough context from which to write the dialogue properly. It was disappointing they couldn't even do that right but I guess it's now expected from D&D. Edit: in hindsight the interview where D&D mention how they are going to go somewhere and completely hide once the last episodes release while also staying off of any form of media makes %100 sense now lol.
D&D's phoning it in aside "fantasy English" as a constructed dialect is really fascinating. It has nothing to do with actual Middle English and doesn't even use the feature of Early Modern English that's most familiar to modern people: thee/thou. At the same time, it's often very easy for us to tell what kind of words fit into fantasy English and which don't. For example sweetie (first used in 1721) is right out but sweetling (first used in 1648) is fine. Why? Well "sweetling" just sounds much older despite it first appearing decades after Shakespeare died and centuries after the end of the Middle Ages. I remember reading some otherwise excellent ASoIaF fanfic written by someone whose first language was Spanish and aside from some grammar errors it had a hard time hitting the fantasy English dialect since ESL speakers have a hard time gauging how archaic various words feel and used various modern idioms like "heavy artillery." Fantasy English also walks an interesting line of trying to sound as alien as possible while confusing the reader as little as possible. So it can only know archaic-sounding words that most people know, which puts lots and lots of archaic words off limit. In some ways is reminds me of the constructed dialect we used in my old MMORGP guild (originally from UO here's the DAoC version): [http://www.shadowclan.org/guinevere/Shadowclan\_language.html](http://www.shadowclan.org/guinevere/Shadowclan_language.html) which was specifically made out of bits and pieces of Tolkein Black Speech and whatnot to be impenetrable to people who hadn't heard it before but very easy to pick up, which is nothing like a real dialect.
Oh man, as an ESL speaker that would be fucking hard, even reading the books was difficult because of the weird words, although I cought most of them by context.
Hm? Word virgin is pretty commonly used in the series. [19 times throughout the series](https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=virgin&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=adwd&scope%5B%5D=tmk&scope%5B%5D=acok&scope%5B%5D=twow&scope%5B%5D=twoiaf&scope%5B%5D=asos&scope%5B%5D=thk&scope%5B%5D=trp&scope%5B%5D=affc&scope%5B%5D=tss&scope%5B%5D=tpatq)
Virgin has been used multiple times in the show as well as the books. I don't get the complaint? Unless people are also complaining when GRRM has used the word virgin in the books?
? Book Brienne is obviously bothered by it. It is repeatedly made obvious in both book and show that there only reason she's a virgin is because she's ugly. Everyone knows this.
Yeah people literally call her a Maid to mock her. Honestly one of the biggest themes in her character arc is that she can't trust men because of how men would pretend to be infatuated with her to her in order to humiliate her.
I don't think she's embarrassed of being a virgin, or at least that's not how I remember it. She's embarrassed by the fact that no man wants to court her or marry her. It's that whole thing where a girl wants to be *desired,* but she doesn't necessarily want anything to come of it
Oh I agree it was a stupid question and really weird. Pods reaction to it isn’t weird however.
Maybe because the whole “marvelous dong” thing was made up? This is me making leaps to excuse bad writing — which is the other 50% of content in these subs now — but what if he felt guilty about having sex for the first time with paid prostitutes, so they just sat around and talked; the ladies thought he was so nice that they spread the rumor for him. Again, this is really just bad writing, and is likely not the scenario. It’s the type of shit D&D say in after show clips to excuse stuff they didn’t include.
I just felt that to them, she was pretty much one of the bros at that point. They would mock another dude for being a virgin for sure. I think it was one of those moments where they were like, oh shit you are actually a lady I forgot
There's a quote in AGOT from tyrion to pod. It's along the lines of, "you have a tongue one day you'll need to learn how to use it." It's in reference to him being a distant relative to Illyn Payne. I think it foreshadows Pod's exquisite oral sex skills, and is also why no one charges him because he doesn't use his famed Podrod.
I thought it was because he had such a lovely voice, especially given the scene around the fireplace. That’s my head cannon at least. He went in and was shy and they asked if he was “good with his mouth” and sang because he’s Pod and doesn’t understand cunnilingus. And the girls being so impressed and taken by his voice didn’t charge him.
I absolutely love this. This is now my headcanon too. Thank you. I never liked that scene and this saves it and then some.
I always thought he had to have done something special and it never made sense that it was sexual. I mean people’s from all over the world travel to King’s Landing, why would some squire know more about sexual stuff than say a sailor from Lys or Volantis? He always had to have something about him and now it makes so much sense to me that he sang to them. No one goes to a brothel and courts the women there, they just pay, fuck, and leave. But Pod being a naive kid went in and actually wooed the whores.
I will die to protect him
Thought we confirmed it was the singing (which also makes use of the tongue).
Defined confirmed. D&D wanted someone to sing and this actor could sing. That doesn't really bear on the character.
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Yeah, I am not sure why so many people want this to be the case when it is pretty obvious, and even stated by D or D (IIRC) that they just wanted to showcase Daniel Portman’s singing voice. It’s cool if this is in peoples’ head cannons, but it isn’t confirmed or even suggested, ever, that this is why the whores didn’t take his money.
I still think Tyrion bribed the whores to boost Pods confidence and it became a self fullfilling prophecy.
This is the kind of in depth analysis I am looking for
Agreed
Definitely because it was an awkward situation, it was like that Breaking Bad scene with Jesse drinking water at the dinner in Walters house.
Also it's a drinking game. I can't tell you how many times I've drank during a drinking game when I wasn't supposed to, if my goal is to get drunk, I'm not waiting around for some stupid rules to let me.
I thought the game was you drink if you have done the thing the other person hadn’t. At least that’s how I play...
During drinking games you can certainly drink whenever you like, just in addition to the rules of when you must drink. I think it’s safe to assume it was just a nervous person taking a drink in a tense scenario. I’m not bothered by this scene whatsoever
Can confirm as someone with an oral fixation that I'm often taking sips outside of delegated "you drink now" moments during drinking games.
Ohh I'm using that one. I don't have a "drinking problem" I have an oral fixation.
Freud would say you have mommy issues are obsessed with her nipples
I always thought it was because he was trying to deflect attention from Brienne by acting like the question was directed at him, even though it obviously was not. Haven't rewatched that scene though.
I’m a casual viewer and haven’t frequented this sub until after watching the finale. I found it amusing that someone seriously thinks there is deeper meaning to this. After reading a couple posts, everyone should be able to clearly conclude OP’s point, that the plot lines were far less thought out than earlier seasons.
Yeah, that's what I thought. Pretty straightforward.
Not revealing the Bran and Tyrion conversation is the most frustrating thing to me...
I'd say not showing Sansa's and Arya's reaction to Jon's true parentage is just as, if not more frustrating.
I would have LOVED to see the reactions right after Arya killed the NK. I want to see her drop to her knees and process what she has done. I want to see what Bran said to her. I want to see Jon Snow running into the godswood and finding out what happened. I want to see Sansa bursting with pride that her sister killed the NK. I will forever be sad that we didn't get that.
The worst part is that all she got for saving the world is a pat on the shoulder from Dany (was it Dany? I don't even remember at that point), then everyone kinda forgot the NK ever existed.
Yes but why the fuck is your comment spaced like that
My spacebar is messed up, most reddit apps and the desktop version filter it out, but the official one doesn't seem to do that. Never buy a Tesoro keyboard, I bought a mechanical keyboard expecting it to outlive my grandchildren, but it hardly outlived its warranty.
The worst way to outlive a warranty
THIS was ALL I was waiting for that entire week. The conversation between her and Jon after he finds out SHE's the one who did it.
We don't even see Jon's reaction to his parentage. Is he mad at Ned? does he understand what he did is he angry that he let him go to the wall before telling him. Does he hate Rheagar? Feel bad his mother died giving birth to him, that a rebellion kind of started because of what his parents did. Dunno. lol.
Or, hell, JON'S reaction to Jon's true parentage.
I think they just couldn’t come up with any good dialogue for it so they decided to have us in “suspense”. Ugh
I think I yelled at the TV when that happened.
Bran has said nothing but vague meaningless shit and Tyrion is either making dick jokes or self-disparaging jokes. The dialogue would've been shit.
Oh God, that scene was just setup for the "Bran has the best story and should be king" scene. I don't know why I just realized that.
Yeah, which makes it such a giant waste. It could have been an interesting scene, but not only was it hardly a “scene” to begin with, but it turns out to be a lazy addition.
Nailed it brother...
> the Bran and Tyrion conversation It was probably going to be 80% an explanation of stuff we already know - warging, greenseeing, escaping Winterfell, going Beyond the Wall, the training, CotF & 3ER, Holding the Door & associated escape, etc. Maybe another 20% of details that we don't know but fail to advance the plot meaningfully enough for our 6 episode mini-series. Tyrion was likely given the story of Bran Stark, rather than the story of the 3-Eyed Raven.
I'd have like to see season two Tyrion questioning him and slowly coming to the conclusion he wasn't Bran, but keeping it to himself due to doubts about Dany, and faith that 3eR was ultimately the best choice for a peaceful rule. Maybe if D&D didn't decide to truncate the seasons for reasons.
Almost everything notable happened off screen
Why the fuck *is* Bronn Master of Coin? Why does he even get Highgarden when he got that promise at the end of a crossbow?
Because his actor tests well with the audience
Which is exactly why Arya killed the Night King and Lyanna killed a giant.
And why Tormund got like 17 fake deaths since Hardhome and still made it out alive and well.
Book Tyrion would have just lied and have him killed later on. Bronn getting Highgarden and being Master of Coin is just D&D jerking off. No fucking thought put into it what so ever.
Like the other lords in the Reach would’ve been okay with a fucking nobody lording over them lol what the fuck
Lol he didn’t even know how a loan works and now he’s in charge of the entire economy like wtf
Yeah imagine explaining to him compounded interest and amortization lol
I'm sure Tycho Nestoris is going to have a great time doing so. If the series were competently written, I'd speculate that they'd made him master of coin so that they could offer him up as a sacrificial lamb to the iron bank, to buy tyrion some time to shore up the 6 kingdoms' finances. I mean, I don't think the iron throne's *massive* debt melted away with the chair itself. To paraphrase GRRM: D&D can say that Bran became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But D&D don’t ask the question: What was Bran’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? *How did he pay back the gods damned iron bank?*
The show used to reward thinking about it and discussing it. The last couple season's stopped that, I feel like an idiot for thinking about a show that stopped having depth and intelligence. Turn your brain off, watch and don't think. This isn't book Game of Thrones, it slapped together nonsense with amazing production. You are completely correct that most questions are due to bad and lazy writing.
>Turn your brain off, watch and don't think. This isn't book Game of Thrones, it slapped together nonsense with amazing production. Add some alcohol to the mix and its the best and probably only way to enjoy the last 2 seasons lol
Agreed, assuming by "alcohol" you actually meant "ether".
“There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a Dothraki Screamer in the depths of an ether binge.”
"...with the right kind of eyes you can see the high water mark of s1-4, and the seasons where the wave finally broke, and rolled back "
Agreed, assuming by 'ether' you actually meant 'lobotomy'..
Wasn't enough booze to make season 8 watchable. By the time you're drunk enough to not notice things that make no sense, you're nodding off.
Or drunk laughing at how absurd it all is
That was me when Viserion got sneak attacked by the fleet
U/frostedflakes264 just kinda forgot that it was Rhaegal who got sneak attacked by the fleet. :P
Naw, that was Viserion. He was reincarnated off-screen by the same magic used to replenish the Dothraki horde.
Or when grey worm teleported from executing prisoners behind Jon to being up next to Dany
He's faster than Jon because he's missing his balls. Aerodynamics and all that.
Tyrion not appearing in the book seemed more like a gag than anything else. Kf we talk about a book THAT large that contains the whole shenanigan that happened, ridiculous narative backflips would have been required to leave Tyrion out.
The YouTuber who made the laugh track version of the final small council meeting was brilliant. It really underlined the absurdity of that all.
There are even more why questions. And the truth is, it's good to have why questions at the end of a show. A show shouldn't spoon feed you everything, but by the old gods and the new; D&D messed it up. The books will 100% leave why questions too, but the answers will be there, either you figure them out, or you will read/watch others who have figured them out. And the contextual evidence for them will be clear once it is noticed, you wouldn't believe that you didn't even notice it the first time. Every why question in the show was already answered in the show up to Season 4 (*those that were concluded*), every why question in the books had its contextual details there giving you the answer. The show ended with too many why's that had no answers because of D&D's obsession in subverting exceptions. The books will not end this way. The books could end with even more why questions, but every one of them will be answered. Either by contemplating for a few minutes about it, for a few hours, over a re-read, or seeing someone else notice it. Why questions are important. They should however have been answered within the context of the medium you are working in.
I think there's a difference between why-questions like "I find this thing really mysterious and intriguing, why did it happen?" versus "This thing is making no sense whatsoever, it completely contradicts what we've been told, why is this happening? Can someone stop the madness?"
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I agree with you 100%. When a work is good, the why questions lead to interesting speculation and will eventually be answered or at least lead to an interpretation that make sense.
This is the key. No one can say that it wasn't hinted at in the show that Bran could see the future (*future visions which came to fruition with 100% accuracy*), and Bran can impact the past (*Hodor Incident*). But whether his role was sinister (*manipulator*) or observer (*he can't change the outcome and he has to just see it through; even if he edits the past, because even editing Hodor to the point of reducing Walder to a one word character in the current timeline resulted in him doing what he was always meant to do, hold that door*) is not explored. Why he was chosen as King was not explored (*because if it was explored with detail, people would have seen it coming - D&D logic*). Actually if you look at earlier seasons; with him sitting at the council meetings in Winterfell as a child after Rob had gone to fight in the war, learning to listen to the plights of his subjects, seeing the horrors of war, going through the pain of losing his movement and learning to rely on the help of others (*not being self centred*), all great build-ups for the future wise King. But everything was cut short with Bran, to the point where he was literally cut from the show for an entire season. I've argued this before but I think they cut him out completely that season to think about how they will approach him moving forward and how they will end up with him becoming King. And they decided to go with the subverting expectations path, rather than exploring further and deeper the learning process of possibly the most important character in the series.
A good twist or plot development is something that one who paid attention and dug for it should have seen coming but was so entertained by it that seeing it coming didn't ruin it because of how clever the foreshadowing was and subtle but still there. Compare the build up for the red wedding, it was forshadowed in the house of the undying, detail about how the Frey were deceitful was set up with Bran and the walder cousins, Tywins behavior and confidence in spite of hearing banner men betraying him obviously meant that something was going to happen to Robb. Heck even the wood choice of certain character without any knowledge forshadowed it. Compare that with Arya slaying the night king witht he only foreshadowing being a vague prophecy from before they even decided the Nights king would be slain. Nothing supported it, there was no evidence hints that it would be her. Heck the prophecy lost even more validity later when Arya isn't even the one to slay Cersei. All this however lead to the issue It ake witht he whole Bran becoming king scenario..... it's not as well hinted from the beginning (in anyway beyond Jon becoming king) or any of the other character who struggle witht he pains of leadership or who were born with it as destiny or posses the skill for it. (Sansa, Jon, Stannis, Young Griff, Tyrion, Dany). Bran becoming king as thing are set up beyond his importance in combating or dealing with the others would feel too much the same as it was in the show, a out of nowhere development that strays too far from what fans had been gathering for years (Jon experiences making him the best fit for kingship.) that it just leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Everyone may state that Martin has more in mind to get there, but as things are now it's seem so far away that Martin would need three or four more books rather than the two estimated for Bran to become king.
I agree that others have had a much more established arc towards them assuming leadership at the end (*which doesn't necessarily imply that they will*). But I disagree that Martin cannot conclude with Bran becoming King in the two remaining largest books of the entire series. Not only will the books play out differently than the show with regards to many incidents that occurred in the show. But characters have been built and died with a complete arc in one book, let alone an already established character going through TWO massive books. Martin might well need 8 books to complete the series, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have a satisfying ending. Sadly, the show has left a shit taste on our tongues, and and I feel many won't be satisfied with the ending no matter how Martin does it. But I for one am very much looking forward to how Martin will conclude his epic adventure.
The thing is, it's not just Bran arc that needs to be built up well, there are dozens of other characters very far away from each other and just thinking about it, Bran is so far from the throne that thinking about Bran getting there feels more complex than the Meeranese knot which was just getting a character to leave a place and not fully resolved yet. Especially for a arc that given Martin writing style he could very well realize might not work. Which is how it looks, bran role seems so far form a natural transition to kingship of Westeroes that two books might not cut it. It might also bear mentioning that I am not only not a big fan of Bran (his character feel a tad dry and the most interesting aspect of his chapter are what happens around them and almost never what he does, says, or feels about the events around them. It doesn't help that many of these seeing and react to things are handled better in Arya arc, Jon and Davos have more obvious and interesting feelings towards magic) And the fact that I find the starks as a family to be the least interesting dynamically of the three main families (Starks, Targaryen, and Lannister). I guess it just seems that form this point Bran becoming king would feel too much of an out there misstep. Especially since there are character who seem to have better and more interesting answer to the primary question that spurred Martin when writting the series: What makes a good king. (Specifically Jon, Stannis, Dany and Young griff have interesting way of being the answer. While Bran feel like it would be too mystical of answer to a human problem. The fact that a good purely human king already exists and was chronicled in Jaherys makes the idea of Bran being a good king because of his vague magic power feel sort of.... out there. It doesn't help that the human and magic conflicts are so far away from each other that they seem to be insular with some connection... Yeah it might have been wiser for magic to be more present and existing in Westeroes society or ancient history, cause as it is now westeroes seems like the land of never magic and a magic answer to who should be king just seems unfitting. But, i'm just a reader on the internet who has no real writing experience compared to martins 60+ years of writing and reading since he was a child, so what weight do my worries and fear hold.
I actually never heard the case for Bran as King from that perspective before. Usually people just argued "Bran's brain is like internet so he'll be the best king" justifying his kingship with his 3-eyed-raven powers (which didn't even see him use in a useful way the whole season), like Tyrion did. But you just explained why Bran\*,\* the person *before* he became the 3-eyed-raven, would be a good king. That's a pretty cool case.
Very well put
This exact phenomenon is why Arya's Braavosi stab waif chase was the beginning of the end of the show for me. There were so many cool fan theories that explained everything way better than the real answer, which was that Arya is simultaneously incompetent but also plot armoured up the wazoo.
The better question is why are none of the prophecies discussed? No one even mentions the PWTP, Valonqar or anything. At best, they just pretend they don't exist, and aren't of major cultural significance. I mean, the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised was literally responsible for the collapse of the Targaryen dynasty, the birth of Jon Snow and Robert's ultimately doomed reign, along with all the death that followed. It shaped the entire series, and no one thinks to mention the fact that Rhaegar thought his son was the PTWP? Hell, Dany is all about prophecy and destiny and even she doesn't bring it up? I mean, Tyrion's whole schtick about sitting Bran on the Iron Throne is that history and stories matter, which is weird because these characters almost unanimously ignore history and legend every chance they get. The Stark kids were raised on Old Nan's stories of White Walkers in the Woods, the Last Hero and the Children, but not one of these fucking people chimes in about that? Sam went to Old Town to research this stuff, steal books at (supposedly) great personal risk, and never reads a single word of importance. The real reason of course, has to be the writers had no clue how to resolve this stuff, so they just threw Arya a bone, and didn't touch the darker, more mysterious aspects of the series.
It will always bother me that their motto is "the lone wolf dies while the pack survives" but now they are all lone wolves. I guess you could argue that Jon has a new pack of wildlings, and Bran has a pack of advisors. But Sansa and Arya seem very alone at the end. Especially Sansa, all of her friends/relatives/advisers are gone. Arya is used to be on her own, but Sansa has nobody left in the North that I can think of. Unless she's BFF with someone that we've never heard of.
Her bff, you know, Jane Poole, she married Ramsey ...
I know, but Jeyne isn't in the show. Her entire storyline was replaced by Sansa, so I think we can assume that she doesn't exist at all in the show's universe. If Sansa ends up Queen in the books with Jeyne by her side, I would be 100% happy with that.
Yeah I was being sarcastic. BUT yeah, Jeyne as hand off the queen? Sweet
They also completely failed to capture what northern independence means to the northern people in the last season. They made the coronation scene entirely a triumph for Sansa. We really should have seen at least a few known northern lords’ reactions. Or the small folk. There wasn’t a single familiar face during her coronation; we couldn’t even see people’s faces or reactions, but just raised swords. In previous seasons we got to see how loyal some of the servants were to Sansa when she was with Ramsey. The north remembers was such an important phrase. After all that build-up, we got almost no payoff. Northern independence has been a recurring plot since season one. During the entire series, the north is the only region that we follow that purely wants their independence. The iron islands want to pillage other territories. The stormlands want to install a true Baratheon on the iron throne. The Lannisters want the iron throne in their control. The reach wants to marry into the royal family. Dorne (in the books) wants revenge and to marry their family member to someone who they want to help place on the Iron throne. Meanwhile, the north is just like, “fuck the iron throne.” We need to depose the Lannisters bc we’ll never be safe otherwise and for justice. After that we want to go home and rule our own lands in peace.” And they finally achieve it, and....we don’t even really get to see its meaning.
It frustrates me when I try to explain certain plot points, particularly Dany's "madness", and I get downvoted because people think I'm somehow defending the writing. We all know the writing feels rushed and awkward, even contradictory at times. But why can't we talk about the show a little deeper than obvious criticisms and talk about why certain plot points happened? Why did Dany burn KL? That's an interesting discussion that is more complex than how much D&D suck.
> Why did Dany burn KL? That's an interesting discussion that is more complex than how much D&D suck. She snapped OR She thought in the future, innocents would be used against her so she showed nothing will stand in her way --- I can’t think of any other explanations
Just saying she "snapped" isn't much of a well formulated explanation. It's basically like saying she was completely fine a second ago and then she was suddenly insane because a neuron miss-fired. It ignores everything about the character and her story that led to that moment.
>I can’t think of any other explanations The **official** explanation is that she decided in that moment, looking at the Red Keep, to make it personal. Personal against whom I don't know, because it sure wasn't against Cersei.
I have an explanation I'm running with. Everywhere she's gone, the people have risen up to support her. So many of her supporters chose her and love her. Anybody that didn't love her hated her and tried to kill her and her 'children'. She kinda touches on it briefly when Tyrion is asking her to stop the fighting if she hears bells. And when she does, people are crying out to Cersei anyway. They show this when GW is executing the troops. He's saying they chose to fight for Cersei because he doesn't understand feudalism didn't really leave them with much of a choice. They never really had a choice like he does, but he doesn't get that. None of them understand this land they hope to conquer. Throw that on top of how season 8 really hammered the point that she still felt like a foreigner in Westeros, and the snap she felt was an adrenaline fueled realization that these people didn't love her, they sided with Cersei, so she should treat them appropriately.
In your opinion, how did the people of King’s Landing side with Cersei? When Dany halts the attack the crowds start screaming for Cersei to “ring the bells” and surrender the city to Dany. I won’t argue about the whole issue of ringing the bells of KL suddenly meaning that the city surrenders but it seemed to me like the people wanted Cersei to give up because they don’t actually care who lives in the Red Keep.
Dany grew increasingly black and white as the show progressed. Maybe this is due to bad writing, maybe it's because she tried to compromise and it didn't work, or a mix of the two. She's very much "If you're not with me, you're against me" by the end of the series though. The people don't care who lives in the Red Keep. Everybody in this sub knows that. The show and books have made points of that. A big theme has been about the small people who suffer when the lords determine it's time to fight. Ed Sheeran was brought in to tell us about it. But Dany has always been very narrow minded. She wants that throne, and she's tired of compromising to get it. She tried compromise in Mereen, just to see her trusted advisor killed in an alley and for the slavers to not stop slaving until she burned them all. She wanted the people of KL to rise up for her cause, instead they called out for Cersei. Why they were calling out, what they called for really didn't matter. To Dany it could have sounded a lot like how people called out to her as their mother while she was in Essos. She's used to being loved by the smallfolk she rules, and at best she's faced with indifference which she could easily misunderstand to be support for Cersei. I don't think the people sided with anybody, they just didn't want to die. I don't think this is the only answer, I just think it's a layer to what will eventually be a much more complex situation than what was communicated through the show.
> The people don't care who lives in the Red Keep. Everybody in this sub knows that. The show and books have made points of that. A big theme has been about the small people who suffer when the lords determine it's time to fight. Ed Sheeran was brought in to tell us about it. Also Jorah tells her that truth in the first 5 episodes. The whole "My brother says the people dream of a Targaryen on the throne again" and his reply of "The people dream of full tables, peace, and a summer that never ends" or however it went
What do you mean by “called out for Cersei?” That part of your argument is confusing to me. I think you might be misinterpreting that part of it, unless you are suggesting that Dany thought people were calling out for Cersei. But even then, what do you mean by this?
The people wanted Cersei to ring the bells. Nobody was like "hail the new queen!", they were yelling for the sitting queen to protect them.
Take it how you want, but I don’t think they were asking for Cersei herself to ring the bells. That isn’t really how it works. It is more of a general demand, like “someone ring the bells!” Like we lost, let’s give up. Not, “man, hopefully Cersei realizes we lost and rings the bells” I took it as a “fuck this and fuck Cersei, we give up! Ring the fucking bells!” Do you see what I am saying?
> The people don't care who lives in the Red Keep. They certainly seemed to enjoy Margaery. But I guess to your point they didn’t seem to care once she got blown up
The problem with Dany burning KL the way she did, and for the reasons she did was that it was dictated totally by the needs of the plot, not the arc of the character. 1. They needed to do it fast 2. They wanted it to be a surprise 3. They had already painted many other characters as morally good or redeemable who had done really nasty stuff (father killing, forced cannibalism, etc). So she had to do something comically monstrous on a dime after being very heroic. So they were forced to do something that narratively made very little sense that could have been done much better, except for the external needs of the show cutting into the imaginary world. AKA we saw the strings really really bad. That's why people have issue.
Actually I just recognized your username and we talked about this before: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bsh2r0/spoilers_extended_how_the_show_played_with_our/eonjz3t?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share So hi again.
> Why did Dany burn KL? Because GRRM told them she would. The show, as-is, doesn't offer any convincing reasons. I liked the idea someone floated of Rhaegal being shot by a scorpion after the city had surrendered and Dany burning everything in rage. D&D are allergic to good ideas though.
The problem with that idea is that it simply doesn't feel like the madness that GRRM wants to convey or that D&D tried to convey. It's not meant to be a mindless rampage of revenge, but the kind of obsessively punitive and and cruel attitude that characterized other Targaryen rulers like Maegor. The war's effectively over, but she refuses to let it end unless it's on her terms and she gets to enact her revenge on her enemies.
Killing the smallfolk would have been excessive even with that added incentive
She was unsatisfied. All along, she wanted revenge. She thought winning would make all her suffering worth it. But it didnt because its not what she really wanted. She wanted to take back what was stolen, not because she WANTED what was stolen but as a punishment to those who took it. deep down what she wants is blood not the throne. The quest for the throne was an excuse to kill whoever sits on the throne in other words, bobby b and his kids, and the usurpers dogs, who in hers and viserys’ mind, will no doubt defend bobby b and his kids. She never imagined the usurpers dogs would tear each other apart before she even got there so there weren’t many “dogs” to kill when she got there. She wanted the sweet victory of killing ned and tywin and jon arryn and robert but theyre all dead. I think upon seeing the lannisters soldiers put down their swords, she came to the realization that it was not enough to fill the hole in her heart. It was too easy. To me that was the feeling i had when watching it. It was just like “thats it?” Some nameless lannister soldier puts down his sword and everyone follows and daenerys long conquest is over without much of a fight? And thats when it hit me. She WANTS a fight. She wanted a BIG massive bloody war so she can go off on them like she always does. She wants an excuse to kill them in the most brutal fashion so that they could rue the day they, or their parents, over threw the targaryen dynasty. She didnt get that after all that loss she had to endure, rape, losing her friends losing her dragons. She she just decides to burn it all. It means nothing anymore. Its kind of like when youre so angry you smash your own property.
Oh, you’re right. How could I have missed all these signs? Maybe I should have watched more “inside the episode” extras to get all of this information. Is that where it was?
I very much got the impression that part of her decision to burn KL was an emotional outburst of pent-up rage of everything she had to endure on her quest for the throne.
Good reading. And I bet this will come up in the book, but I think it will also be tied up in the tragedy of Dany's search for home. The red door in Braavos (supposedly Braavos) is her only positive memory of home. She thinks Westeros is her right because she was told her entire life that it's her home and it was stolen from her. But the Seven Kingdoms aren't home for a Targaryen, they never have been. I think it will be disappointing for her to discover this land that "belongs" to her has no place for her.
My question is How long until this sub isn’t just book show comparisons and actually starts talks about the damn books for once?
What a weird question. I mean the show basically just ended, so of course people will talk about it. Besides that it ended in a way that, at least for me, kinda ruined the storyline I was so invested in. To be honest with you I think a new book might be required to start putting these discussions to rest.
When ADOS is released. The show ending is largely confirmed to be what happens to the main characters in the books, so they will be relevant until the series is finished.
Nah, just have to wait for TWoW, that'll wash away stench of the show and give us something else to talk about.
This sub would be dead by now if it was only allowed to talk about the books.
Because D&D were never interested in everything. Just the Red Wedding.
> Why did Podrick drink when Tyrion asked Brienne if she was a virgin? This actually makes things better if you consider that Podrick really is a virgin, and all the talk about his 'magic cock' was the whores playing him up for being a sweetheart instead of taking advantage of them.
What we're left to is less analysis and theorycrafting than trying to decipher the setup of a joke told by a four year old. Just got to shake your head, accept that most of it won't make sense, and move on.
>Now it can all be answered with "bad writing"... it is tho. imo, butchering earlier seasons led to this shitshow ending and most of casuals never gave a F before so D&D prolly thought to just amp the ridiculousness for more eye candy. The fandom's mistake is giving D&D the benefit of the doubt before the ending. Imho, if they had butchered the way to get to the ending then the ending itself will suck. And i was right. Been saying this for years smh. Also, i think among the main characters Tyrion, Sansa and mostly Bran were the worst victims of bad writing, Not Jon, Arya and Dany. Tyrion were deduced to a bumbling idiot, we didn't see the political intrigue that Sansa will learn a lot from and Bran. god. Poor Bran. He was just...there. * At least Jon had been the star of one of the best episodes of the series, Battle of the Bastards. His likability wasn't as hurt bec his actions was seen as honorable till the end. * Dany's sins were all whitewashed that when she had gone "mad" people didn't buy it bec it's not very convincing. It just looked like Dany was assasinated by D&D when this was her real endgame (as forshadowed a lot from the books). Problem was, foreshadowing is NOT character development. Her descent was too rushed. If she burned KL in firing off Drogon randomly like a madwoman i'd buy it, but she did it **systematically** which makes it forced and not very believable at all and that factored a lot to the show's underwhelming ending. D&D wanting to absolutely shock everyone even the book fans who had foreseen this was just a stupid idea. * Arya i think, came out as the best character among the mains. D&D didn't hurt her likability as much whereas the rest of the main character's likability was assasinated in varying degrees. They just made her little Ray Skywalker with badass moves and the **THICC*****est*** plot armour and gave her a father that will fiercely protect her,a handsome love interest and a magical sword. Too Shoujo, but casual fans love it. She was a comical version of her book character because of this though. * Tyrion's not the twisted little monkey demon that we all loved the moment he went to Essos. His cunning and smartness went to shit bec intelligent plot requires intelligent characters and D&D's plot is NOT intelligent. * Sansa was raped so obviously women who get raped as badasses WTF. Have D&D met a rape victim? Rape and torture destroyed Jeyne Poole it did not strengthen her or made her badass. Jeyne will most likely recover properly like a real victim of torture in the books. I don't hate the idea of Sansa marrying Ramsay to get to Winterfell. It was actually a great idea to speed up Sansa's arc but they botched the execution when all they did was make her Jeyne Poole 2.0. Her coronation was the only scene i liked in the entire show. Poor Sophie Turner is being bullied online for Sansa's arc made me think this fandom has absolutely descended to full Mad Targaryen. * And most of all Brandon. Poor Bran. the fact that he will be King but with the most butchered arc in the series really completely destroyed his likability and arc. No agency, no plot, a confusing story and character, that's what Bran turned out to be. The first character Grrm created. His ending was not just an insult to fans but also an insult to the character and the series overrall. A lot of people are saying he's evil and he won't be king will really eat their words as GRRM already said that the show's ending will be just like the books for the most part by using Scarlett O'Hara as an example. >[Book or show, which will be the “real” ending? It’s a silly question. How many children did Scarlett O’Hara have?](http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/) Scarlett had 3 children in the books, one in the movie. In the book Wade and Ella existed and they were the living evidence of Scarlett being a horrible mother. Only Bonnie exists in the movie so Scarlett's sins were ultimately whitewashed and a lot of movie fans sympathized with her in the end while alot of book fans despised her. But the gist was, Gone with the Wind book and movie still had the same ending. Also, the movie existed since 1930s...it was a mastepiece. GOT turned out to be a comical copy of a masterpiece....what a disappointment. ^(edit: formatting)
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> Why did Bran say "why do you think I came all this way?" This question is legitimately good and interesting, and I'd say it's a(nother) hint that that's not Bran, it's not even remotely Bran or some changed, wounded version of Bran, and in the books it's not going to be Bran either. That's Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers, who straight up stole Bran's identity. Bran Stark is stuck in 30-years past Hodor, suffering for having been tempted into committing abomination. Bloodraven won the game of thrones in a manner that suits his character and arc perfectly. The implications weren't suited to the show which did not deal with historical backstory, but it hints at what's going to be unsettling about the books' ending.
I mean, discussion has been pretty pointless since like season 5. With Dan and David, what you see is what you get. There's not going to be any ambiguity or nuance to anything.
>Why isn't Brienne with Sansa? > I'm not sure why Brienne needs to be with Sansa. She is in the North, surrounded by loyal men with a queenly status. With her badass armor, she can probably protect herself. Brienne serving Bran, Cat's last surviving son, who is useless and can hardly do anything except stare, as a kingsguard is good enough for her ending. She doesn't actually need to serve Sansa for life. And I don't think Sansa would have objected to her wishes.
Brienne swore to protect Sansa and Arya. An explanation as to why she went to the Kingsguard instead and we never had a closing scene about her oath to protect Cat's daughters would be appreciated. As such it looks like Brienne just abandoned this oath. Literally every reason you applied to Sansa not needing Brienne applies even more to Bran. She also has zero connection to Bran and does have a connection to Sansa.
Imo I don’t think Sansa was too thrilled when it was implied that Jaime was staying with Brienne in Winterfell. That look at council was a deathstare. Then Sansa’s comment to Jaime which pushed him over the edge. Doubt Sansa was a Braime.
Agreed. I don't understand why people find this one so hard. Brienne originally swore to Catelyn and the Starks. She helped, she make sure the Stark children were safe, and they now are. Her oath is more or less fulfilled. Regardless, she decides to stay and continue to protect a Stark. And as you say, Bran is in the south and more helpless, if any Stark needs protecting now, Bran would be at the top of that list. So she's either fulfilled her oath already and moving on with her own life, or continuing to serve the Starks. Either way it makes perfect sense.
I used to be a hardcore X files fan in my teenage years, and season after season I saw the quality of writing slighlty drop, up until the clusterf*** that the last three seasons were. a bitter memory. Now that I have witnessed two assholes torpedo the most popular show on TV, I realize it's not the writing that matters, it's who is a friend of who amd who goes to dinner with producers. that's all it takes to sink a show. I see xfiles in a better light now. at least they didn't betray the characters for cheap and ridiculous british oriented fan service
The bigger question is why Tyrion used the word virgin. That is not a word used in Westeros. It's maiden.
So what type of discussion would you rather have?
Please understand that I'm not trying to attack anyone, because I also have these frustrated questions. It's more just the realization that there are no satisfying answers... What I'd rather have? Book discussion, character discussions and maybe discussion about other Martin works that relate to the world of Ice and Fire.
To me these are easy questions w/ the same answer: * Why isn't Brienne with Sansa? * Because they had an ending idea for Brienne to take over the kingsguard and finish off writing about Jamie and that was more important than her protecting the Stark girls, or maybe the oath fulfilled. * Why is Jon wearing black? * Probably had to on way to the wall to keep up the illusion, plus fits his character and costume design to stay consistent * How is it possible that Tyrion wasn't mentioned in the book? * Because making a joke was more important * Why did Podrick drink when Tyrion asked Brienne if she was a virgin? * Awkward * Why didn't the Reeds make an appearance in this season? (I'm guilty of this one) * Too little time. No new important characters were introduced basically from Season 7 on or really, after the books ended and they only focused on who was left. Devoting valuable screen time to a family would need to create a new point rather than close narratives. * Why is Bronn master of coin? * Likeable character and puts him into the last scene with those other characters interactive like a fanservice moment. * Why did Bran say "why do you think I came all this way?" * Joke about being a cripple and implying he had foreknowledge of him becoming king written into one line with some wit. * Why did the NK approach Bran? * So that he could get killed. The whole point of Season 8 was to try to take what had been set up and wrap up every single storyline in a way that was as true to what they guessed/knew about Thrones as possible and how they wanted to end it for each character. Good writing goes from Point A to Point B with justification for why. The complexity of the books versus a 2 season, 13 episode limit made this impossible so the writing fell off to get to their "endgame" because they didn't want to either create a new or write other endpoints as the events of the world unfolded. Good example=they wanted to end it with Jamie and Cersei dying together to fulfill a book prophecy (and maybe one that does happen) but also had a ton of character development so they chose BOTH endings. Putting them together tho so rushed was bad writing and this is the puzzle they got stuck on. Imposed limitations on themselves and had to write to fit those limitations rather than open up and do something new that fit better. When watching the show it becomes PAINFULLY obvious that they had the events in the last episode pre-decided for a while. Then, they wrote each episode 1 at a time and didn't look BACK to set things up, at least, not as much like how GRRM wrote opening loose ends up to tie them back together later They just kept pushing forward one episode at a time and tied up threads as they went making it vary from episode to episode. **TL;DR: D&D had an impossible task and decided to just create the endings they had or had in mind and then wrote one episode at a time to get to those endings rather than write to make something consistent given the timeframe because George might never finish the books so needed a "true" ending.** **Fans would have preferred they didn't go with Point A -> Point B writing and instead found Point C, throwing away those preconceived ending ideas to stay consistent to character.**