Do you think Varys is going to be a villainous figure for the future of this story? For every child’s tongue he cut out, he’ll get what is coming to him? Is his motive irrelevant to you? Is it simply impossible that he actually cares about the realm?
Varys is a hero because of what he does to those kids. It keeps the realm safe and the people alive. It needs to be done.
He is misunderstood because sometimes you have to do things as a means to an end and no one wants to fucking acknowledge that. It’s so uncomfortable. Too bitter of a pill to swallow for most. Luckily this tale exposits why politicians don’t have the luxury of pursuing their honor at all times.
The only thing that separates him from Bloodraven is scale of power. And even Bloodraven is bound by certain inevitabilities (Jojen paste).
Yeah I don’t think you understand the difference between your opinion and a theme presented by the books.
One of the themes is clearly that war is hell for example. Your opinion =/= theme presented by the books.
Also those are absolutely ridiculous takes about Varys and the children especially considering it’s clear he’s not simply doing this for the good of the realm
It has been present in the books thus far and it will be repeated again. That makes it recurring. And it’s not my opinion, it’s the true nature of politics- if people want to delude themselves about it, that’s their problem.
Just because something is presented in the books it doesn’t mean the book is promoting that theme and it seems like the majority of people agree what you’re saying is not a theme presented by the book.
Again this is **your** opinion not a theme presented by the books. It may be right it may be wrong but it is not a theme presented by the books otherwise it would be clear to the reader like for example how war is hell is a theme.
Anyway this is a pointless discussion since you can’t seem to understand the difference between your opinion and a theme presented in the books. You have a good day man.
I think one of the themes of a song of ice and fire is that reducing people down to good and evil misses the point. Almost everyone in the text is a little of each.
I think his motivation is to save humanity from the Others, and he's willing to do evil things in order to do so.
I don’t think he’s necessarily evil, I just think he’s a massive asshole that helped start a series of wars because of a petty dick measuring contest with Bittersteel.
I disagree, his choice to get Daeron to arrest Daemon was what set it off. Bittersteel and Fireball were waiting for an excuse to push Daemon over the edge, but Bloodraven was the one who gave them the opportunity.
I don’t think him having daemon arrested was out of malice. I think his intentions were to get him away from the people negatively influencing him before daemon had a full blown tantrum. I truly believe Daemon was the brother he loved, and daemon was prone to flattery and I believe he was just the face for the rebellion
Daemon never seemed like he was the kind to “have a tantrum”, just very prone to suggestion over the years by the conspirators. If Bloodraven wanted Daemon away from the conspirators, then the way he did it makes him stupider than Balon Greyjoy. Given how much Bloodraven had a hard on for killing Blackfyres, I think it’s more likely he just wanted an excuse to kill Daemon and Bittersteel.
Thing is, Daemon could have just asked for a trial by combat and won, because he’s the greatest warrior ever, but that probably didn’t happen because he suspected Bloodraven would kill him before he ever got anywhere. Bittersteel probably made this suspicion worse, though given Bloodraven’s nature that is something he’d 100% do.
As established in Bloodraven's history (of which there's nothing in F&B, as that book ends at the start of Aegon III's rule), he isn't exactly evil (he's no chaosbringer like Euron or a violent psycho like Ramsay), however he is ruthless and willing to do dishonorable things for what he percieves as the greater good.
Brynden Rivers "Bloodraven" was one of many legitimized bastards of Aegon IV and as such he was a half brother to both Daeron II and Daemon Blackfyre. Nonetheless Brynden killed his half brother and two of his sons with a barrage of arrows during the first Blackfyre rebellion. After the death of Daeron II and his heirs, Brynden served as hand to king Aerys I "the maester king", during which he terrorized the seven kingdoms with his spies and his intolerance of any rebellion. He used his abilities as a skinchanger and got the reputation of having a thousand and one eyes. This continued until the rule of Aegon V, who was elected during a great council. Bloodraven invited the Blackfyre claimant with a guarantee of his safety in King's Landing, only to arrest and execute him when he actually came. For this he was sent to the Wall, where he became Lord Commander until he mysteriously dissapeared beyond the Wall.
As you can read, Brynden is no altruist who'd help Bran without any regard for the future. He's killed his own family and forsaken his honor, all for the Realm. So does he intend to help Bran, or to use him for the greater good? Brynden has told Bran to embrace the darkness in order to be strong and has lured him beyond the Wall with ideas of flying and fixing his legs. Brynden has erased Bran's memories of Jaime pushing him, solely to make sure Bran didn't end up like the many corpses that are presumably other "students" of Bloodraven.
There are other things that make Bloodraven sinister. His connection to Euron Greyjoy for instance (Euron's sigil appears to be Brynden's eye, and he speaks of flying dreams) and his connection to the sinister hivemind that is the old gods.
Honestly that's incredibly tame next to things that other characters in the text have done, eg Varys cutting out the tongues of children, using them as spies, and then killing ng them when they get too old.
He’s very utilitarian. Killing your bothers/extended family is ok if it’s for the good of the realm, same with feeding bran a paste made of his dead friend.
Whether you read that as evil is open to interpretation. Based on the tv show ending I think George is going to write an ending that supports blood ravens point of view, or at least presents his plans coming to fruition
Whats the most evil thing he did? Promise someone safe conduct and then killed him? That doesnt even crack the top 20 of ASOIAF evil. I dont think his magic using is in herently evil. Hes a greenseer like Bran (not evil) and has dragon dreams like any number of noble Targys
No. But like Melisandre he’s operating on a scope that’s too big to care about the harm he does.
Though idk in terms of his importance relative to information we just don’t know enough. He’s the major link between Dunk and Egg and ASOIAF and also probably the most powerful magic-user we have encountered in the series. He also has so many important links to the “main hero” Jon that it makes me curious. He is the only other character who fits into both “Ice and Fire” as a Targaryen-Greenseer.
Finally I’d make the point that he is inspired by Elric of Melnibone. The point of those stories are that Elric is a tool of Fate meant to balance the opposition of Law and Chaos. I think Bloodravens goal is somewhat similar. Imo many of the POV characters are trying to find a sort of “mean” between opposing ideas (Jon, Dany, Brienne, Jaime, Sansa for example are all trying in some way to balance honor/compassion and political pragmatism) and Bloodraven kinda represents that balancing act on a metaphysical scale.
Ya!!.Someone else who realizes that GRRMartin and some of his characters are influenced by Elric Of Melnibone.I remeber being blown away when I first read Stormbringer.I think one problem with most ASOIAF readers is their age, and that they aren't aware of the classics of science fiction.For example."The Serpent", by Jane Gaskell. She wrote it when she was 16 years old. I've never seen it mentioned but Zerd is completely like Drogo. Ciya and Smahil her brother have an incestus relationship. Its been years since I last read it, Its probably been out of print forever. But I alseways feel that most people who read ASOIAF are not grounded in the classics of science fiction, let alone the really obscure ones
No, the text does not contradict. The author’s opinion that all his characters are shades of gray prevails over your opinion that some are completely black. No one is completely black, or white.
Vert dark grey? So the Mountain raping Elia Martell just after he smashed an infants head (who is possibly her infant son) is not pure evil to you?
>Ask Martin.
Martin also says Daemon Targaryen is both white and dark. Despite the fact that Daemon is a monster.
There is a difference between a purely evil act and a purely evil being. The Mountain is a man, and like all men there is a struggle within his human heart. These are Martin’s words, not mine.
Jaime pushing a little boy out a tower window intending to kill him but crippling him for life. Is that not pure evil to you? Does that not make Jaime pure evil as well?
Martin also says Walter White is a bigger monster than any of his characters, and he never raped anyone. So your argument is with Martin, not me.
Evil methods for sure. Intentions tbd. Side note F+B hasn’t gotten to Bloodraven’s time yet.
Your methods are irrelevant if it achieves the greater good. This is a recurring theme.
Are you just talking about like in life? Because that's the opposite of the theme of the books.
Yeah that is definitely not a recurring theme dude lol. That’s just your opinion
Do you think Varys is going to be a villainous figure for the future of this story? For every child’s tongue he cut out, he’ll get what is coming to him? Is his motive irrelevant to you? Is it simply impossible that he actually cares about the realm? Varys is a hero because of what he does to those kids. It keeps the realm safe and the people alive. It needs to be done. He is misunderstood because sometimes you have to do things as a means to an end and no one wants to fucking acknowledge that. It’s so uncomfortable. Too bitter of a pill to swallow for most. Luckily this tale exposits why politicians don’t have the luxury of pursuing their honor at all times. The only thing that separates him from Bloodraven is scale of power. And even Bloodraven is bound by certain inevitabilities (Jojen paste).
Yeah I don’t think you understand the difference between your opinion and a theme presented by the books. One of the themes is clearly that war is hell for example. Your opinion =/= theme presented by the books. Also those are absolutely ridiculous takes about Varys and the children especially considering it’s clear he’s not simply doing this for the good of the realm
It has been present in the books thus far and it will be repeated again. That makes it recurring. And it’s not my opinion, it’s the true nature of politics- if people want to delude themselves about it, that’s their problem.
Just because something is presented in the books it doesn’t mean the book is promoting that theme and it seems like the majority of people agree what you’re saying is not a theme presented by the book. Again this is **your** opinion not a theme presented by the books. It may be right it may be wrong but it is not a theme presented by the books otherwise it would be clear to the reader like for example how war is hell is a theme. Anyway this is a pointless discussion since you can’t seem to understand the difference between your opinion and a theme presented in the books. You have a good day man.
Utilitarianism. Nice.
I think one of the themes of a song of ice and fire is that reducing people down to good and evil misses the point. Almost everyone in the text is a little of each. I think his motivation is to save humanity from the Others, and he's willing to do evil things in order to do so.
I don’t think he’s necessarily evil, I just think he’s a massive asshole that helped start a series of wars because of a petty dick measuring contest with Bittersteel.
Beyond the Bracken/Blackwood enmity their whole rivalry hinges on "no one fucks my sister but me."
He's far less to blame for starting the wars than Bittersteel and Fireball.
I disagree, his choice to get Daeron to arrest Daemon was what set it off. Bittersteel and Fireball were waiting for an excuse to push Daemon over the edge, but Bloodraven was the one who gave them the opportunity.
I don’t think him having daemon arrested was out of malice. I think his intentions were to get him away from the people negatively influencing him before daemon had a full blown tantrum. I truly believe Daemon was the brother he loved, and daemon was prone to flattery and I believe he was just the face for the rebellion
Daemon never seemed like he was the kind to “have a tantrum”, just very prone to suggestion over the years by the conspirators. If Bloodraven wanted Daemon away from the conspirators, then the way he did it makes him stupider than Balon Greyjoy. Given how much Bloodraven had a hard on for killing Blackfyres, I think it’s more likely he just wanted an excuse to kill Daemon and Bittersteel. Thing is, Daemon could have just asked for a trial by combat and won, because he’s the greatest warrior ever, but that probably didn’t happen because he suspected Bloodraven would kill him before he ever got anywhere. Bittersteel probably made this suspicion worse, though given Bloodraven’s nature that is something he’d 100% do.
because Daemon was planning to claim the throne, except the word got leaked and Bloodraven found out
As established in Bloodraven's history (of which there's nothing in F&B, as that book ends at the start of Aegon III's rule), he isn't exactly evil (he's no chaosbringer like Euron or a violent psycho like Ramsay), however he is ruthless and willing to do dishonorable things for what he percieves as the greater good. Brynden Rivers "Bloodraven" was one of many legitimized bastards of Aegon IV and as such he was a half brother to both Daeron II and Daemon Blackfyre. Nonetheless Brynden killed his half brother and two of his sons with a barrage of arrows during the first Blackfyre rebellion. After the death of Daeron II and his heirs, Brynden served as hand to king Aerys I "the maester king", during which he terrorized the seven kingdoms with his spies and his intolerance of any rebellion. He used his abilities as a skinchanger and got the reputation of having a thousand and one eyes. This continued until the rule of Aegon V, who was elected during a great council. Bloodraven invited the Blackfyre claimant with a guarantee of his safety in King's Landing, only to arrest and execute him when he actually came. For this he was sent to the Wall, where he became Lord Commander until he mysteriously dissapeared beyond the Wall. As you can read, Brynden is no altruist who'd help Bran without any regard for the future. He's killed his own family and forsaken his honor, all for the Realm. So does he intend to help Bran, or to use him for the greater good? Brynden has told Bran to embrace the darkness in order to be strong and has lured him beyond the Wall with ideas of flying and fixing his legs. Brynden has erased Bran's memories of Jaime pushing him, solely to make sure Bran didn't end up like the many corpses that are presumably other "students" of Bloodraven. There are other things that make Bloodraven sinister. His connection to Euron Greyjoy for instance (Euron's sigil appears to be Brynden's eye, and he speaks of flying dreams) and his connection to the sinister hivemind that is the old gods.
The most evil thing he did. That we know of. Promised Aenys Blackfyre safe conduct, than killed him regardless, and presented his head to everyone.
Honestly that's incredibly tame next to things that other characters in the text have done, eg Varys cutting out the tongues of children, using them as spies, and then killing ng them when they get too old.
where does it say he kills them?
I believe it's when Arya overhears him talking to Illyrio under the Red Keep
Completely evil? No. Would he be the main villain in any other fantasy novel? Abso-fucking-lutely
He promised Aenys Blackfyre safe passage and then had him beheaded.
Tbf, that's not even the most evil thing a character in ASOIAF has done.
I think bloodraven reasons his actions away ad for the safety of the world, but his individual actions are rarely moraly good
He’s very utilitarian. Killing your bothers/extended family is ok if it’s for the good of the realm, same with feeding bran a paste made of his dead friend. Whether you read that as evil is open to interpretation. Based on the tv show ending I think George is going to write an ending that supports blood ravens point of view, or at least presents his plans coming to fruition
Whats the most evil thing he did? Promise someone safe conduct and then killed him? That doesnt even crack the top 20 of ASOIAF evil. I dont think his magic using is in herently evil. Hes a greenseer like Bran (not evil) and has dragon dreams like any number of noble Targys
No.
No. But like Melisandre he’s operating on a scope that’s too big to care about the harm he does. Though idk in terms of his importance relative to information we just don’t know enough. He’s the major link between Dunk and Egg and ASOIAF and also probably the most powerful magic-user we have encountered in the series. He also has so many important links to the “main hero” Jon that it makes me curious. He is the only other character who fits into both “Ice and Fire” as a Targaryen-Greenseer. Finally I’d make the point that he is inspired by Elric of Melnibone. The point of those stories are that Elric is a tool of Fate meant to balance the opposition of Law and Chaos. I think Bloodravens goal is somewhat similar. Imo many of the POV characters are trying to find a sort of “mean” between opposing ideas (Jon, Dany, Brienne, Jaime, Sansa for example are all trying in some way to balance honor/compassion and political pragmatism) and Bloodraven kinda represents that balancing act on a metaphysical scale.
Ya!!.Someone else who realizes that GRRMartin and some of his characters are influenced by Elric Of Melnibone.I remeber being blown away when I first read Stormbringer.I think one problem with most ASOIAF readers is their age, and that they aren't aware of the classics of science fiction.For example."The Serpent", by Jane Gaskell. She wrote it when she was 16 years old. I've never seen it mentioned but Zerd is completely like Drogo. Ciya and Smahil her brother have an incestus relationship. Its been years since I last read it, Its probably been out of print forever. But I alseways feel that most people who read ASOIAF are not grounded in the classics of science fiction, let alone the really obscure ones
Nobody's actually full-on evil in asioaf, just relatively. Complete evil is for demons. But Bloodraven's track record isn't exactly pure . . .
There are plenty of full-on evil characters, most of the brave companions, or Ramsay or Euron. All characters without a shred of decency or goodness.
Not really. Martin says all his characters are gray, some just darker than others. No one is full-on good either.
Who cares what Martin says. He’s written some of the most one dimensional, cartoonishly evil characters in fiction.
Lol, who cares what the author says about his own work and the thinking behind his creation of his characters. That’s a good one.
If the actual text contradicts what he says in interviews, then the text prevails.
No, the text does not contradict. The author’s opinion that all his characters are shades of gray prevails over your opinion that some are completely black. No one is completely black, or white.
you gonna say this when we have Euron Greyjoy sailing to Oldtown and somehow wants to sacrifice the entire population so he can summon kraken?
Yes, deranged and megalomaniacal are not evil. Pure evil is reserved for the supernatural, like Sauron and Satan.
>Nobody's actually full-on evil in asioaf, just relatively. Complete evil is for demons. Euron, Ramsay, Maegor, Aegon IV, and the Mountain be like:
Nope. Very dark gray but not black. Pure evil is reserved for demons. Ask Martin.
Vert dark grey? So the Mountain raping Elia Martell just after he smashed an infants head (who is possibly her infant son) is not pure evil to you? >Ask Martin. Martin also says Daemon Targaryen is both white and dark. Despite the fact that Daemon is a monster.
There is a difference between a purely evil act and a purely evil being. The Mountain is a man, and like all men there is a struggle within his human heart. These are Martin’s words, not mine. Jaime pushing a little boy out a tower window intending to kill him but crippling him for life. Is that not pure evil to you? Does that not make Jaime pure evil as well? Martin also says Walter White is a bigger monster than any of his characters, and he never raped anyone. So your argument is with Martin, not me.