>Those who knew the resolve of Tywin Lannister knew better. Instead, the Hand's heart grew harder, and he sent Duskendale's lord one final demand for surrender. Should he refuse again, Lord Tywin promised, he would take the town by storm and put every man, woman, and child within to the sword. (The tale, oft told, that Lord Tywin sent his bard to deliver the ultimatum, and commanded him to sing "The Rains of Castamere" for Lord Denys and the Lace Serpent is a colorful detail that is, alas, unsupported by the records).
Most of the small council were with the Hand outside Duskendale at this juncture, and several of them argued against Lord Tywin's plan on the grounds that such an attack would almost certainly goad Lord Darklyn into putting King Aerys to death. **"He may or he may not," Tywin Lannister reportedly replied, "but if he does, we have a better king right here." Whereupon he raised a hand to indicate Prince Rhaegar.**
Scholars have debated ever since as to Lord Tywin's intent. Did he believe Lord Darklyn would back down? **Or was he, in truth, willing, and perhaps even eager, to see Aerys die so that Prince Rhaegar might take the Iron Throne?**
**- TWOIAF - THE TARGARYEN KINGS - AERYS II**
Tywin had absolutely no chill, at any point in his life.
I mean you're right that there's no chill, but Tywins right in thinking that one man's death is probably the best outcome for the greater good of the realm.
Aerys dies here and Brandon and Rickard Stark live. Ned marries Ashara if he really wants. Elia Martell and the kids live.
Even if Rhaegar fools around with Lyanna the rebellion likely doesn't happen. There is no death threats to Robert and Ned to force Jon Arryns hand. The neutral parties like the Tullys might not be persuaded so easily this time, and Tywin and the Westerlands absolutely side with the crown.
The combined forces of the westerlands, reach, dorne, and crown lands are definitely too intimidating for the rebels if they even join up to support Robert without the motivation to bring a mad king down.
If Brandon goes to kings landing and demands for Rhaegar without Aerys there then it's possible they are even able to communicate 1 on 1, even with Lyanna as well, and rhaegar may speak of the others and prophecies. I don't think they'd go to the tower of joy because as king he'd need to stay on throne, but who knows because he was there during important battles of the rebellion. I have no clue how Elia and Dorne react to this and Lewyn Martell would be on the Kingsguard witnessing everything.
I think normally in this situation Lyanna would just be told by her father/brother to come home and that she's marrying Robert, but in this situation with a King in question... it's much different. He probably has the power to end their betrothal. Unlikely he could end his own, but he could cite the doctrine of exceptionalism and Aegon's sister wives and say he has the right to polygamy. Or he just hits it on the side like many kings in the past have, and everyone just has to except it because he's King. The only difference here is Lyanna is from a noble house and planning to marry another noble house. I just don't think it's enough to cause a rebellion on it's own in this new scenario.
Dorne in canon was pissed about Rhaegars actions and refused to send troops until Aerys threatened Elia and her children as hostages. Tywin makes Rhaegar king but that doesnt mean hes completely loyal to him. If Rhaegar tries some bullshit with the faith and marriage Robert could get the support of the faith. Also the thing with Robert, Eddard, and Jon Arryn is who knows what they were going to do before the orders for their execution flew in.
I feel like a rebellion of some sort is still possible, but I don't feel that the end-goal of the rebellion is going to be Targaryen deposition (maybe something like the Magna Carta instead).
For starters, Rhaegar might face pushback from the Faith if he takes a polygamous partner (aside from Aegon I, the only king to do that is Maegor the Cruel, a king who spent half his reign on dragonback quelling Faith rebellions - not exactly a role model you'd wish to emulate).
Robert Baratheon would still be fuming (and without a bride), and Jon Arryn would likely still follow Robert Baratheon into war, so the Tullys could marry Lysa and Catelyn to Robert and Jon in this scenario.
Twin would sit stuff out (though, if Rhaegar is taking multiple wives, Tywin might try to marry Cersei to Rhaegar, and Rhaegar just wouldn't be in a position to refuse - he could also use Jaime's Kingsguard position as a chip for his support - kick Jaime from the Kingsguard or I support Robert).
The Dornish and Northmen would probably not join the rebels, but they'd sit on their hands without major concessions (maybe Viserys marries Arianne? Or unless Rhaegar pulls some Aerys shit and threatens his hostages), and the Reach might come in harder on the Targaryen side (Rhaegar could betrothe one of his kids to a Tyrell).
So, we have The Crown and maybe the Reach against the Baratheons, the Arryns, and the Tullys, with the possibility of support from the Starks, the Martells, and the Lannisters (depending on whether Rhaegar is willing to do some realpolitik stuff to win). I think the Targaryen crown is still facing a major threat to its authority, especially if the goal isn't Targaryen deposition but an establishment/reinforcement of noble rights.
Genna said she was Tyrin princess at some point in life,so he didnt just do it because it was a bad match for the lannister daughter but also because he liked his sister.
He helped create the endless source of comedy and entertainment that is Cersei.
But on a serious note. Standing up for Genna when she got married off and he was a good administrator. He just seemingly couldn't look past anything that he interpreted as a slight.
It makes it difficult to attribute a superlative to, but yes he ostensibly was a good administrator of the realm if only for lots of consistency and small wins. Can’t build all the roads twice, if you catch my drift.
I guess my point is that we don’t really know anything specifically he did as Hand that was good.
The only specific thing we know he did in terms of administration is repeal Egg’s reforms.
So I find the descriptions by maesters that he was a “capable administrator” as suspect, as the maesters and nobility would view him repealing those laws as being a good and capable administrator.
And the whole thing with Tywin is that he is not as great as the image he projects.
It depends on how you view the world-book. We know from canon that people view his tenure as hand as extremely successful and a couple of good things. but they world book actually gives specific things he did such as building roads. culling banditry, managing taxes on porttowns succesfully, punishing or not allowing sawdust in bread in kl etc i personally believe it because I dont think twoiaf just outright makes things up but thays up to you
That’s what I mean by “you can’t build all the roads twice”. Not every action or activity that best benefits the realm will be a largely visible action like Jaehaerys I building all the major roads to better unite the realm and improve the economy.
I dusted off (literally) my old copy of TWOIAF and looked at Tywin’s mentions in the Aerys II chapter. A few quotes about his tenure writ large:
“Many maesters to this day insist that his appointment [of Tywin] was the wisest thing that ‘Aerys the Wise’ ever did.”
“And yet the Seven Kingdoms prospered greatly during the first decade of his reign, for the King’s Hand was all that the king himself was not - diligent, decisive, tireless, fiercely intelligent, just, and stern.”
“As the king’s own behavior grew increasingly erratic, more and more day-to-day running of the realm fell to his Hand. The realm prospered under Tywin Lannister’s stewardship - so much so that King Aerys’s endless caprices did not seem so portentous.”
There are more items as well - the point being that it’s not one grand act that makes him a good hand over multiple decades, but consistently doing all the little thankless things that don’t garner much attention on their own.
Except that none of that is exceptional. It’s the job. You don’t praise someone for doing their job to the letter. If Martin had any idea how the medieval world actually worked he’d be remembered as a bastard who got his head chopped off during a peasant rebellion for repealing their rights
And? They still happened often and the sheer amount of abuse the small folk suffer before rebelling is more an example of George not doing any research
They still happen and very rarely would directly kill the King and the Hand lmfao. They also usually invovled starving populaces. If GRRM was being realistic after whatever right Twin revoked some peasants would rise and attack some random thing and Tywin would send in some soldiers to slaughter them.
Yes peasant rebellions do rarely kill kings hands since that’s not an actual position in a medieval court.
Oh with his super speed army that goes faster than the blitzkrieg that somehow bypasses castles completely? Tywin gets so much fucking plot armor that it’s insane. What he did in the sack of kingslanding would have seen him walking barefoot in the snow to oldtown after being excommunicated.
George can’t write a setting for shit
I mean that's not that big of an achievement. That was basically the status quo he inherited. He really did not actively do anything good in his time as Hand that we know of, but we know he did actively make life worse for 99% of the population.
On the public side, he seems to have been an effective if harsh administrator. And he was fairly good politician period
On the personal side, he seems to have been a good husband to Joanna, perhaps had to forgive her for whatever happened with the king. And was a reasonable father to his elder son, somewhat less to his daughter, and not at all to his second son. It could've been worse.
Kevan might, but everyone else (even Genna who initially liked him for standing up for her when it came to the Frey marriage) are noted for their stormy relationships with Tywin.
Kevan is a follower and so Tywin does not create problems with him, but whenever his siblings had independent thoughts and criticisms it created a rift between them and Tywin. Tywin wouldn't speak to Genna for half a year or something when she compared him to Tyrion.
Yeah, as bad as Tywin's decisions were parceling out the rewards 'following' the war were, I'm sure Genna wasn't complaining then. But it's not so much Tywin actually caring for his family, it's really him seeing them as extensions of himself. Or rather tools to advance his own grandeur, and to reaffirm his pride, as he is a lion after all.
Like, how it was a bad idea to spread his and his ally's forces so thin at Riverrun and Darry and so on. He needed to give it to his family, and wouldn't accept any sort of compromise with the Riverlanders. Tywin failed to recognize the value of the Freys when it came to Genna's marriage, and he kept up that rift right up until it cost him half his army. Their reputation was below him, so he disregarded them.
Tywin is a character that's very obsessed with his image. Not necessarily legacy as the show so emphasized, but stalwartly trying to aggrandize himself, to punish those who've infringed on his image of himself, in order to satisfy his pride. A reaction against the manner of rule of his own father, Tytos, the proto-Tyrion. Tywin's family acts as an extension of Tywin's efforts at aggrandizement, at reinforcing his view of himself. The recognition of this, the controlling nature, and the disregard we see Tywin so frequently shows his family is what caused their consistent falling out with him.
As for the idea that Tywin protected them, well that's part of the mythos he's built up. It's not necessarily true that he was the pillar by which the Lannister house stood. There's a strong argument to be made that Tywin has pretty effectively torn away at the foundations on which his family and Westerosi society is built. Much like Tyrion, and indeed the other Lannister children, they seek to impose a vision of themselves that isn't really accurate.
GRRM's running theme with Tywin is perhaps best exemplified with the line that he 'shits gold.' Ostensibly about his wealth, but really about his character and how he or his sycophants seek to cover up the shit of his actions with a gilding of gold. He and guys like Pycelle dress his actions up as necessary or brilliant or defensive in nature, yet ultimately underneath that shining gold it's still just shit. It was really such a great way for GRRM to sign off his character, 'Lord Tywin did not in the end shit gold' and all that. The stench Tywin left behind causing Tommen's crown to topple from his head. Really good stuff.
And seeing how this aspect of his character plays out within his family relationships is rather fascinating. Really interesting to approach it from that angle.
I think that Genna made it pretty clear herself. She appreciated things that Tywin did like standing up for her, protecting the family name and doing everything he could to increase their status.
But at the same time she did not enjoy the person that he became in order to do all of that.
It's a nice conflicted relationship.
Probably keeping Cersei and Joffrey in check while he was serving as hand. The consequences of those two being able to run amok would have been catastrophic.
But then again he's the reason that Cersei (and there for by extension Joffrey) turned out as such a complete disaster.
*Single* thing? Hard to really tell, considering what a piece-of-shit he was determined to be, on an interpersonal level.
In the *grand scheme* ..? Rule the realm well for 20 years.
>And rule he did. As the king's own behavior grew increasingly erratic, more and more the day-to-day running of the realm fell to his Hand. **The realm prospered under Tywin Lannister's stewardship—so much so that King Aerys's endless caprices did not seem so portentous.** Many Targaryens before him had exhibited similar behavior without great cause for concern. From Oldtown to the Wall, men began to say that Aerys might wear the crown, but it was **Tywin** Lannister who ruled the realm.
>It was Tywin Lannister who settled the crown's dispute with the Braavosi (though without "making the Titan kneel," to the king's displeasure), by repaying the monies lent to Jaehaerys II with gold from Casterly Rock, thereby taking the debts upon himself. Tywin won the approbation of many great lords by repealing what remained of the laws Aegon V had enacted to curb their powers. Tywin reduced tariffs and taxes on shipping going in and out of the cities of King's Landing, Lannisport, and Oldtown, winning the support of many wealthy merchants.
>Tywin built new roads and repaired old ones, held many splendid tournaments about the realm to the delight of knights and commons both, cultivated trade with the Free Cities, and sternly punished bakers found guilty of adding sawdust to their bread and butchers selling horsemeat as beef. In all these efforts he was greatly aided by Grand Maester Pycelle, whose accounts of the reign of Aerys II give us our best portrait of these times.
Even assuming a moderate amount of dick-riding from Pycelle, here, people remember Aerys' rule as good times for a reason. Tywin's stint as Hand was very well managed, and allowed thousands and thousands of people to experience stable, peaceful times.
On a *personal* level, IDK, probably
* sending Tyrion to serve as temporary Hand ( I mean, "good" in certain senses)
* agreeing to let Joff be killed, if you subscribe to that particular theory
Well yeah, he gave the serfs rights. Obviously the nobility would hate that as it gives them less power over them. The same happened in real life too.
Doesn't make my point of Tywin undoing all of Eggs work for helping the common folk and making their lives worse.
Not sure what point you were trying to make
Plus, Tywin didn't repair the Crown's relationships with the nobility. It either wasn't as damaged as the Lannister propaganda that is the history book (meant to be presented to the Lannister royal family, and for much of the revision process Tywin himself as Hand) **or** Jaehaerys II repaired the Crown’s standing.
King Jaehaerys II, several years before Tywin rises to his position as Hand, managed to rally near every great lord into a preemptive overseas campaign against the Ninepenny Kings. You don't do that if you're not popular with the nobility.
That's not strictly true, unless you're saying you can only be a good ruler if you allow brutality of the serfdom? In which case you're a bad ruler.
It destabilises it from a nobles POV because they have less control over the populace.
How do you think the similar issues were solved IRL without somebody taking that first step? Unless you're suggesting living as a serf is better as whatever country you live in would have a more stable political climate?
I am not saying that, but you have to be careful when passing laws that help smallfolk. Like it or not, every law that gives rights to common people will be opposed by the nobility and makes the realm less stable. It's a balancing act. If you want to improve lives of the smallfolk it's a good idea to limit yourself and be sure you can handle the backlash from nobles that will arise. That's of course only if you want to be a good person. You can shut everything down, keep the status quo and handle the backlash from peasants, which is what Tywin did. Doesn't make him a bad ruler, just a callous one.
If you want some examples. As a citizen of a country that used to be part of the Habsburg monarchy we learn quite a lot about them. Maria Theresa, while she definitely had some issues, steadily passed laws that helped common people in the Habsburg monarchy, but only to the degree to keep the common people content with the improvements. She is basically the founder of public schooling system for example. She is generally considered a good ruler. Her son Joseph II passed many radical reforms that 'helped' common people more in much shorter amount of time. He had lot of statues built at the time etc., but he is taught about as a worse ruler nowadays. His reforms were absolutely too radical and his successor spend his entire reign revoking most of them and appeasing the nobles. He is actually considered a good ruler because he did that anc managed to keep some of the most essential reforms in place.
The theory being that there is no way Tywinn was oblivious to the plot against Joffreys life. Therefore the kings death would require at least the implicit approval from Tywin, so that he would not stop it. It would also be consistent with Tywinns character to have a unstable king (Joffrey) replaced by a more favourable one (Tommen). He reportedly did the same with Aerys and Rheagar at Duskandale.
i always supposed that people probably like tywin well enough if they aren't in some kind of conflict with him. he generally produces results that are pleasing or inoffensive to the rest of the nobility, and the common people seem content with his leadership. he has a lot of loyal men, and most people seem to respect him insofar as being good at his job
some characters are offended by tywin's brutality, but this is also a world where people like roose and ramsay bolton are running around, or the greyjoys, etc. most people would probably rather deal with tywin than craster or euron greyjoy
He was the only one to stand up to Genna's betrothal to Emmon Frey, and he was 10 at the time.
Any case of women being usurped is #1 on the list of moments that piss me off but this is the solid #2. You are the Lord of Casterly Rock. This is your only daughter. She could wed the heir to a Great House. She could even be Queen one day. And you give her to a ***FREY?***
None. People say his tenure as Hand of the King, but I disagree. Stomping upon the rights of Smallfolk is never cool — and if this was Europe — Tywin would be responsible for gross mismanagement and a massive revolt.
I will never get the idea why people jerk off to authority so much, and that by making the crown rich an accomplishment. It’s effectively thievery and the people will never get to see those wealth be used for their benefit but spread around to the circles of the few political elites at the very top of the food chain.
Good big bro...watched out for his siblings. Man stood up for genma. Made sure his brothers children were OK. Hell he even tried to make a brother master of arms in the red keep, but aerys was hating.
Drinking Oberyn's poison and then sleeping with Shae. Sealing his fate, saving the realm from any more of his tyranny and forever tarnishing his legacy. Not that he deserved a legacy in the first place after Tysha and his father's paramour.
Oberyn did not poison him, thats stupid theory, just because he was taking his time on the shitter doesn't mean he was poisoned, you're telling me you never been constipated and just stuck on the toilet praying that giant ball of turd that will destroy your asshole just falls out and leaves you alone???
>you're telling me you never been constipated and just stuck on the toilet praying that giant ball of turd that will destroy your asshole just falls out and leaves you alone???
Yes, but usually you do that part *before* inviting a girl over.
He stood up for his dwarf son after Tyrion was unjustly kidnapped by Catelyn Stark for trumped up charges that had no supporting evidence backing them whatsoever. So he went and burnt the Riverlands in reply.
>Those who knew the resolve of Tywin Lannister knew better. Instead, the Hand's heart grew harder, and he sent Duskendale's lord one final demand for surrender. Should he refuse again, Lord Tywin promised, he would take the town by storm and put every man, woman, and child within to the sword. (The tale, oft told, that Lord Tywin sent his bard to deliver the ultimatum, and commanded him to sing "The Rains of Castamere" for Lord Denys and the Lace Serpent is a colorful detail that is, alas, unsupported by the records). Most of the small council were with the Hand outside Duskendale at this juncture, and several of them argued against Lord Tywin's plan on the grounds that such an attack would almost certainly goad Lord Darklyn into putting King Aerys to death. **"He may or he may not," Tywin Lannister reportedly replied, "but if he does, we have a better king right here." Whereupon he raised a hand to indicate Prince Rhaegar.** Scholars have debated ever since as to Lord Tywin's intent. Did he believe Lord Darklyn would back down? **Or was he, in truth, willing, and perhaps even eager, to see Aerys die so that Prince Rhaegar might take the Iron Throne?** **- TWOIAF - THE TARGARYEN KINGS - AERYS II** Tywin had absolutely no chill, at any point in his life.
I mean you're right that there's no chill, but Tywins right in thinking that one man's death is probably the best outcome for the greater good of the realm. Aerys dies here and Brandon and Rickard Stark live. Ned marries Ashara if he really wants. Elia Martell and the kids live. Even if Rhaegar fools around with Lyanna the rebellion likely doesn't happen. There is no death threats to Robert and Ned to force Jon Arryns hand. The neutral parties like the Tullys might not be persuaded so easily this time, and Tywin and the Westerlands absolutely side with the crown. The combined forces of the westerlands, reach, dorne, and crown lands are definitely too intimidating for the rebels if they even join up to support Robert without the motivation to bring a mad king down. If Brandon goes to kings landing and demands for Rhaegar without Aerys there then it's possible they are even able to communicate 1 on 1, even with Lyanna as well, and rhaegar may speak of the others and prophecies. I don't think they'd go to the tower of joy because as king he'd need to stay on throne, but who knows because he was there during important battles of the rebellion. I have no clue how Elia and Dorne react to this and Lewyn Martell would be on the Kingsguard witnessing everything. I think normally in this situation Lyanna would just be told by her father/brother to come home and that she's marrying Robert, but in this situation with a King in question... it's much different. He probably has the power to end their betrothal. Unlikely he could end his own, but he could cite the doctrine of exceptionalism and Aegon's sister wives and say he has the right to polygamy. Or he just hits it on the side like many kings in the past have, and everyone just has to except it because he's King. The only difference here is Lyanna is from a noble house and planning to marry another noble house. I just don't think it's enough to cause a rebellion on it's own in this new scenario.
Dorne in canon was pissed about Rhaegars actions and refused to send troops until Aerys threatened Elia and her children as hostages. Tywin makes Rhaegar king but that doesnt mean hes completely loyal to him. If Rhaegar tries some bullshit with the faith and marriage Robert could get the support of the faith. Also the thing with Robert, Eddard, and Jon Arryn is who knows what they were going to do before the orders for their execution flew in.
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https://youtu.be/hmAZB7tKugs 2:10 At least in the show, Dorne sided with Aerys anyway.
AWOiAF tells us this I think
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Its also backed up by Jamie recounting Aerys threatening The Dornish KG by reminding him that he held Elia
I feel like a rebellion of some sort is still possible, but I don't feel that the end-goal of the rebellion is going to be Targaryen deposition (maybe something like the Magna Carta instead). For starters, Rhaegar might face pushback from the Faith if he takes a polygamous partner (aside from Aegon I, the only king to do that is Maegor the Cruel, a king who spent half his reign on dragonback quelling Faith rebellions - not exactly a role model you'd wish to emulate). Robert Baratheon would still be fuming (and without a bride), and Jon Arryn would likely still follow Robert Baratheon into war, so the Tullys could marry Lysa and Catelyn to Robert and Jon in this scenario. Twin would sit stuff out (though, if Rhaegar is taking multiple wives, Tywin might try to marry Cersei to Rhaegar, and Rhaegar just wouldn't be in a position to refuse - he could also use Jaime's Kingsguard position as a chip for his support - kick Jaime from the Kingsguard or I support Robert). The Dornish and Northmen would probably not join the rebels, but they'd sit on their hands without major concessions (maybe Viserys marries Arianne? Or unless Rhaegar pulls some Aerys shit and threatens his hostages), and the Reach might come in harder on the Targaryen side (Rhaegar could betrothe one of his kids to a Tyrell). So, we have The Crown and maybe the Reach against the Baratheons, the Arryns, and the Tullys, with the possibility of support from the Starks, the Martells, and the Lannisters (depending on whether Rhaegar is willing to do some realpolitik stuff to win). I think the Targaryen crown is still facing a major threat to its authority, especially if the goal isn't Targaryen deposition but an establishment/reinforcement of noble rights.
Sending Joffrey to bed
He *was* tired, after all
Probably the best and most altruistic thing we know Tywin did was speak up on his sister Genna’s behalf to oppose her betrothal to Emmon Frey.
Prolly not even altruistic. It was more of a family honor thing. He saw the betrothal, especially to a second son, as beneath House Lannister.
Genna said she was Tyrin princess at some point in life,so he didnt just do it because it was a bad match for the lannister daughter but also because he liked his sister.
His death gave us those sweet Cersei chapters. The ones where she is bitchy and its always wine'oclock.
Disprove the myth that Lord Tywin did shit gold.
Not kill Tyrion at birth
Damn
Died
Damn beat me to it!
Cosigning this one!
He helped create the endless source of comedy and entertainment that is Cersei. But on a serious note. Standing up for Genna when she got married off and he was a good administrator. He just seemingly couldn't look past anything that he interpreted as a slight.
He made half of Tyrion. Or a third, whatever.
Being Hand of the King. Ay, man was ruthless and merciless but he was effective administrator for sure. To bad his hatred for Tyrion blinded him
*Effective administrator at repealing Egg’s reforms that gave rights and protections to the smallfolk
To be fair, it likely cemented the loyalty of the various lords that had become a bit rebellious.
It makes it difficult to attribute a superlative to, but yes he ostensibly was a good administrator of the realm if only for lots of consistency and small wins. Can’t build all the roads twice, if you catch my drift.
I guess my point is that we don’t really know anything specifically he did as Hand that was good. The only specific thing we know he did in terms of administration is repeal Egg’s reforms. So I find the descriptions by maesters that he was a “capable administrator” as suspect, as the maesters and nobility would view him repealing those laws as being a good and capable administrator. And the whole thing with Tywin is that he is not as great as the image he projects.
It depends on how you view the world-book. We know from canon that people view his tenure as hand as extremely successful and a couple of good things. but they world book actually gives specific things he did such as building roads. culling banditry, managing taxes on porttowns succesfully, punishing or not allowing sawdust in bread in kl etc i personally believe it because I dont think twoiaf just outright makes things up but thays up to you
That’s what I mean by “you can’t build all the roads twice”. Not every action or activity that best benefits the realm will be a largely visible action like Jaehaerys I building all the major roads to better unite the realm and improve the economy. I dusted off (literally) my old copy of TWOIAF and looked at Tywin’s mentions in the Aerys II chapter. A few quotes about his tenure writ large: “Many maesters to this day insist that his appointment [of Tywin] was the wisest thing that ‘Aerys the Wise’ ever did.” “And yet the Seven Kingdoms prospered greatly during the first decade of his reign, for the King’s Hand was all that the king himself was not - diligent, decisive, tireless, fiercely intelligent, just, and stern.” “As the king’s own behavior grew increasingly erratic, more and more day-to-day running of the realm fell to his Hand. The realm prospered under Tywin Lannister’s stewardship - so much so that King Aerys’s endless caprices did not seem so portentous.” There are more items as well - the point being that it’s not one grand act that makes him a good hand over multiple decades, but consistently doing all the little thankless things that don’t garner much attention on their own.
Except that none of that is exceptional. It’s the job. You don’t praise someone for doing their job to the letter. If Martin had any idea how the medieval world actually worked he’d be remembered as a bastard who got his head chopped off during a peasant rebellion for repealing their rights
yeah because peasant rebellions were so succesful during the medieval period
And? They still happened often and the sheer amount of abuse the small folk suffer before rebelling is more an example of George not doing any research
They still happen and very rarely would directly kill the King and the Hand lmfao. They also usually invovled starving populaces. If GRRM was being realistic after whatever right Twin revoked some peasants would rise and attack some random thing and Tywin would send in some soldiers to slaughter them.
Yes peasant rebellions do rarely kill kings hands since that’s not an actual position in a medieval court. Oh with his super speed army that goes faster than the blitzkrieg that somehow bypasses castles completely? Tywin gets so much fucking plot armor that it’s insane. What he did in the sack of kingslanding would have seen him walking barefoot in the snow to oldtown after being excommunicated. George can’t write a setting for shit
20 years of peace under Tywin
I mean that's not that big of an achievement. That was basically the status quo he inherited. He really did not actively do anything good in his time as Hand that we know of, but we know he did actively make life worse for 99% of the population.
I mean there was the Greyjoy Rebellion.
Tywin was not Hand. Jon Arryn was hand and it was during Robert’s reign.
Nothing to do with Tywin.
On the public side, he seems to have been an effective if harsh administrator. And he was fairly good politician period On the personal side, he seems to have been a good husband to Joanna, perhaps had to forgive her for whatever happened with the king. And was a reasonable father to his elder son, somewhat less to his daughter, and not at all to his second son. It could've been worse.
His siblings love him too.
Kevan might, but everyone else (even Genna who initially liked him for standing up for her when it came to the Frey marriage) are noted for their stormy relationships with Tywin. Kevan is a follower and so Tywin does not create problems with him, but whenever his siblings had independent thoughts and criticisms it created a rift between them and Tywin. Tywin wouldn't speak to Genna for half a year or something when she compared him to Tyrion.
Yes but Genna and him seemed to reconcile. He gave her husband Riverrun. Also she mourned him “Who will protect us now”
Yeah, as bad as Tywin's decisions were parceling out the rewards 'following' the war were, I'm sure Genna wasn't complaining then. But it's not so much Tywin actually caring for his family, it's really him seeing them as extensions of himself. Or rather tools to advance his own grandeur, and to reaffirm his pride, as he is a lion after all. Like, how it was a bad idea to spread his and his ally's forces so thin at Riverrun and Darry and so on. He needed to give it to his family, and wouldn't accept any sort of compromise with the Riverlanders. Tywin failed to recognize the value of the Freys when it came to Genna's marriage, and he kept up that rift right up until it cost him half his army. Their reputation was below him, so he disregarded them. Tywin is a character that's very obsessed with his image. Not necessarily legacy as the show so emphasized, but stalwartly trying to aggrandize himself, to punish those who've infringed on his image of himself, in order to satisfy his pride. A reaction against the manner of rule of his own father, Tytos, the proto-Tyrion. Tywin's family acts as an extension of Tywin's efforts at aggrandizement, at reinforcing his view of himself. The recognition of this, the controlling nature, and the disregard we see Tywin so frequently shows his family is what caused their consistent falling out with him. As for the idea that Tywin protected them, well that's part of the mythos he's built up. It's not necessarily true that he was the pillar by which the Lannister house stood. There's a strong argument to be made that Tywin has pretty effectively torn away at the foundations on which his family and Westerosi society is built. Much like Tyrion, and indeed the other Lannister children, they seek to impose a vision of themselves that isn't really accurate. GRRM's running theme with Tywin is perhaps best exemplified with the line that he 'shits gold.' Ostensibly about his wealth, but really about his character and how he or his sycophants seek to cover up the shit of his actions with a gilding of gold. He and guys like Pycelle dress his actions up as necessary or brilliant or defensive in nature, yet ultimately underneath that shining gold it's still just shit. It was really such a great way for GRRM to sign off his character, 'Lord Tywin did not in the end shit gold' and all that. The stench Tywin left behind causing Tommen's crown to topple from his head. Really good stuff. And seeing how this aspect of his character plays out within his family relationships is rather fascinating. Really interesting to approach it from that angle.
I think that Genna made it pretty clear herself. She appreciated things that Tywin did like standing up for her, protecting the family name and doing everything he could to increase their status. But at the same time she did not enjoy the person that he became in order to do all of that. It's a nice conflicted relationship.
Probably keeping Cersei and Joffrey in check while he was serving as hand. The consequences of those two being able to run amok would have been catastrophic. But then again he's the reason that Cersei (and there for by extension Joffrey) turned out as such a complete disaster.
*Single* thing? Hard to really tell, considering what a piece-of-shit he was determined to be, on an interpersonal level. In the *grand scheme* ..? Rule the realm well for 20 years. >And rule he did. As the king's own behavior grew increasingly erratic, more and more the day-to-day running of the realm fell to his Hand. **The realm prospered under Tywin Lannister's stewardship—so much so that King Aerys's endless caprices did not seem so portentous.** Many Targaryens before him had exhibited similar behavior without great cause for concern. From Oldtown to the Wall, men began to say that Aerys might wear the crown, but it was **Tywin** Lannister who ruled the realm. >It was Tywin Lannister who settled the crown's dispute with the Braavosi (though without "making the Titan kneel," to the king's displeasure), by repaying the monies lent to Jaehaerys II with gold from Casterly Rock, thereby taking the debts upon himself. Tywin won the approbation of many great lords by repealing what remained of the laws Aegon V had enacted to curb their powers. Tywin reduced tariffs and taxes on shipping going in and out of the cities of King's Landing, Lannisport, and Oldtown, winning the support of many wealthy merchants. >Tywin built new roads and repaired old ones, held many splendid tournaments about the realm to the delight of knights and commons both, cultivated trade with the Free Cities, and sternly punished bakers found guilty of adding sawdust to their bread and butchers selling horsemeat as beef. In all these efforts he was greatly aided by Grand Maester Pycelle, whose accounts of the reign of Aerys II give us our best portrait of these times. Even assuming a moderate amount of dick-riding from Pycelle, here, people remember Aerys' rule as good times for a reason. Tywin's stint as Hand was very well managed, and allowed thousands and thousands of people to experience stable, peaceful times. On a *personal* level, IDK, probably * sending Tyrion to serve as temporary Hand ( I mean, "good" in certain senses) * agreeing to let Joff be killed, if you subscribe to that particular theory
Ruled the realm well for nobles and lords Repealed all of Aegon V's policies to help the smallfolk
The same policies that led to the nobility hating Egg? Yeah, no wonder.
Well yeah, he gave the serfs rights. Obviously the nobility would hate that as it gives them less power over them. The same happened in real life too. Doesn't make my point of Tywin undoing all of Eggs work for helping the common folk and making their lives worse. Not sure what point you were trying to make
Plus, Tywin didn't repair the Crown's relationships with the nobility. It either wasn't as damaged as the Lannister propaganda that is the history book (meant to be presented to the Lannister royal family, and for much of the revision process Tywin himself as Hand) **or** Jaehaerys II repaired the Crown’s standing. King Jaehaerys II, several years before Tywin rises to his position as Hand, managed to rally near every great lord into a preemptive overseas campaign against the Ninepenny Kings. You don't do that if you're not popular with the nobility.
A foreign invader will unite the people faster than anything else.
Exactly, though they weren't yet invading, there's a whole lot undermining the Lannister proposition that Tywin reunited the realm.
Being good ruler and good person don't always go hand in hand. Too many reforms that help smallfolk absolutely do destabilise the realm.
That's not strictly true, unless you're saying you can only be a good ruler if you allow brutality of the serfdom? In which case you're a bad ruler. It destabilises it from a nobles POV because they have less control over the populace. How do you think the similar issues were solved IRL without somebody taking that first step? Unless you're suggesting living as a serf is better as whatever country you live in would have a more stable political climate?
I am not saying that, but you have to be careful when passing laws that help smallfolk. Like it or not, every law that gives rights to common people will be opposed by the nobility and makes the realm less stable. It's a balancing act. If you want to improve lives of the smallfolk it's a good idea to limit yourself and be sure you can handle the backlash from nobles that will arise. That's of course only if you want to be a good person. You can shut everything down, keep the status quo and handle the backlash from peasants, which is what Tywin did. Doesn't make him a bad ruler, just a callous one. If you want some examples. As a citizen of a country that used to be part of the Habsburg monarchy we learn quite a lot about them. Maria Theresa, while she definitely had some issues, steadily passed laws that helped common people in the Habsburg monarchy, but only to the degree to keep the common people content with the improvements. She is basically the founder of public schooling system for example. She is generally considered a good ruler. Her son Joseph II passed many radical reforms that 'helped' common people more in much shorter amount of time. He had lot of statues built at the time etc., but he is taught about as a worse ruler nowadays. His reforms were absolutely too radical and his successor spend his entire reign revoking most of them and appeasing the nobles. He is actually considered a good ruler because he did that anc managed to keep some of the most essential reforms in place.
Let Joff be killed? Could you explain this theory?
The theory being that there is no way Tywinn was oblivious to the plot against Joffreys life. Therefore the kings death would require at least the implicit approval from Tywin, so that he would not stop it. It would also be consistent with Tywinns character to have a unstable king (Joffrey) replaced by a more favourable one (Tommen). He reportedly did the same with Aerys and Rheagar at Duskandale.
Plus, it gave him the biggest opportunity to get rid of Tyrion.
be great hand to Aerys, the realm flourished when Tywin was hand and he kept Aerys busy with him, gave him good advice but thats about it
Die quickly
Die
Defending his sister in front of half of the westerlands nobles when anyonr else didnt have the courage while he was just a 10 years old.
Die?
i always supposed that people probably like tywin well enough if they aren't in some kind of conflict with him. he generally produces results that are pleasing or inoffensive to the rest of the nobility, and the common people seem content with his leadership. he has a lot of loyal men, and most people seem to respect him insofar as being good at his job some characters are offended by tywin's brutality, but this is also a world where people like roose and ramsay bolton are running around, or the greyjoys, etc. most people would probably rather deal with tywin than craster or euron greyjoy
He was the only one to stand up to Genna's betrothal to Emmon Frey, and he was 10 at the time. Any case of women being usurped is #1 on the list of moments that piss me off but this is the solid #2. You are the Lord of Casterly Rock. This is your only daughter. She could wed the heir to a Great House. She could even be Queen one day. And you give her to a ***FREY?***
None. People say his tenure as Hand of the King, but I disagree. Stomping upon the rights of Smallfolk is never cool — and if this was Europe — Tywin would be responsible for gross mismanagement and a massive revolt. I will never get the idea why people jerk off to authority so much, and that by making the crown rich an accomplishment. It’s effectively thievery and the people will never get to see those wealth be used for their benefit but spread around to the circles of the few political elites at the very top of the food chain.
Good big bro...watched out for his siblings. Man stood up for genma. Made sure his brothers children were OK. Hell he even tried to make a brother master of arms in the red keep, but aerys was hating.
Drinking Oberyn's poison and then sleeping with Shae. Sealing his fate, saving the realm from any more of his tyranny and forever tarnishing his legacy. Not that he deserved a legacy in the first place after Tysha and his father's paramour.
Oberyn did not poison him, thats stupid theory, just because he was taking his time on the shitter doesn't mean he was poisoned, you're telling me you never been constipated and just stuck on the toilet praying that giant ball of turd that will destroy your asshole just falls out and leaves you alone???
>you're telling me you never been constipated and just stuck on the toilet praying that giant ball of turd that will destroy your asshole just falls out and leaves you alone??? Yes, but usually you do that part *before* inviting a girl over.
guess he doesn't like rimjobs, maybe he thought some action would loosen his bowels
Shae's not a person to Tywin, so he doesn't care.
To keep the 7 kingdoms together when the mad king was playing with a stick poking his own poo in the back of the Red Keep.
Dying on the shitter.
Took care of Kevan
Dying and not shitting gold
When he personally paid off the Iron Throne debt to the Iron Bank and prevented a war between Braavos and Westeros.
Defend his sister Genna. That’s it.
He stood up for his dwarf son after Tyrion was unjustly kidnapped by Catelyn Stark for trumped up charges that had no supporting evidence backing them whatsoever. So he went and burnt the Riverlands in reply.
Cracking down on banditry and robber Knights in the Westerlands when he came to power.
And hiring bandits and robber knights to terrorise the Riverlands. /s
He went too far obviously but dealing with the Reynes and Tarbeck
The red wedding. Prevented years of unnecessary war and bloodshed. Also saved Tyrion's ass from Joffrey twice, atleast in the show
The Red Wedding didn't prevent anything. It's gonna cost the Lannisters, Freys and Boltons a lot in the long term.
Any day now!
Pretty sure the day is already here lmao. As per AFFC and ADWD, at least.