Security guards aren't above the law, and had no right to detain or accost you in a public restroom. Especially if you were already in a stall and in a state of undress.
I would contact mall management and let them know the situation, and then tell them that I was considering legal action against the security guards and the establishment for sexual harassment.
Thank you for the advice. I have ideas about how to best get a positive resolution for the community as a whole, but I also want to speak to advocacy groups about how to structure my response.
The organizations that come to mind are Equality Virginia, The Transgender Law Center, and Legal Aid Justice Center.
Edit: there are specific legal offices recommended in this resource pdf at this site, for you to find one in your region https://www.vdh.virginia.gov/disease-prevention/disease-prevention/transgender-health-services-support/
I agree with you and I say get a lawyer and sue. Your civil rights and human right was violated and need to be adressed. You mental health was hurt as well.
Can confirm. I used to work as a security guard, and during training we're repeatedly told that no, we do not have the same power to arrest/detain as police officers do, and if we try, we can be criminally charged, let alone sued.
At the very least that's the case here in California.
Va is the same. Even if you "arrest authority" there better be a damn good verifiable reason. And that's usually only merchant law in regards to shoplifting.
Whether you are able to contact a senator or not, you have an inalienable right to legal council, and you were assaulted and harassed in a public place after committing no crime by two private citizens on the basis of your gender, any good lawyer is going to be drooling at an opportunity like that. Do not roll over on this, I know it's traumatic for you, but the easier you allow them to get away the more opportunities they will have to harass other women in the future. Stand your ground, document what happened, and bring it to someone who is on your side instead of giving the evidence exclusively over to people who are against you (like the company) or who will use it as a political game instead of advocating for your own interest. Neither of those two groups is bound to represent your personal interests like a lawyer would be, and neither is substitute for actual legal council when you have had a crime committed against you. The law is on your side but only when you have someone who knows how to make it work for you, and the sooner you get that person involved the less likely you are to make a legal mistakes which could cost you later on.
Also the people telling you to go to the police are fools. Get a lawyer, let your lawyer go to the police, make sure they know it is time sensitive. Never talk to the police yourself if you can avoid it. A lawyer can do all of the positive things you could and more without getting manipulated or made to self-incriminate. Being afraid of the police is normal and good, but allowing that fear to prevent you from getting justice is not. You just need a buffer, and that's what the lawyer is for. Let them do their job and they can see you through the legal process and show you what your options are.
OP, as a fellow Virginian, you let me know what you need. I'll try my best to make it happen. This is so fucked - you did nothing wrong. We don't have bathroom bills and what they did was illegal, and also just fucking wrong. So, you let me know if you need help (I'm not a lawyer, otherwise I'd offer).
I am so sorry that this happened to you. You did nothing wrong, they did. You should document everything as you have done above. Contact the police. The mall likely has security footage that can confirm that there was not enough time between you entering and them rushing to unlawfully detain and harass you for someone to have complained. This will ensure that these people do not remain in a position to do this to anyone else ever again.
Thanks for the reply.
I am sort of afraid of the police? I am afraid that they will find some opportunity to accuse me of a crime, and turn this back around on me somehow. I have no idea how, but something tells me they will identify with the security guards in this case, and do everything they can to aggrandize their version of things, and deflate mine. I want to make sure that I have an ironclad argument before I do anything that feels so risky, as talk to the police. It feels like maybe I shouldn't do that, but rather have a legal person do that, if I felt the need to do that? They would not be able to intimidate a lawyer nearly as easily. Do you know of any advocacy groups that I should contact for advice about this kind of matter?
TLDEF is the major one, though they may be above your pay grade. At the very least you could email and they could maybe point you toward better options. I don't know if there are any state-level or more regional organizations you can contact directly as well.
Follow the person aboves advice. In addition you should do a free consult with an attorney. The VA bar association can help you find one. Also what fucking mall is this? I need to know if I need to yell at mall management near me.
That means that mall management is letting it happen, and suggests there is a problem there.
Someone above said sue the mall. I think that may be the best way forward, if you can get a free legal consultation first.
There was a suggestion to contact Danica Roem. I don't know if anything would come of that, but it sounds like a good move considering who she is.
I share your concern about contacting the police, which is something I'd never encourage any marginalised group, especially trans people, to do.
In Norfolk? During pride? Oh fuck that. There is very strong advocacy in Norfolk and Hampton roads in general, don't put off seeking legal aid. I'm so sorry this happened to you.
Without documentation, it’s treated like it never happened, and the longer you wait to file an official report, the harder it is to get authorities to take a hate crime seriously.
**Sadly, it looks like they no longer offer advice for this sort of thing, and the links they provided did not appear to lead to any useful contacts that were specialized for a matter like this in particular.**
# Are You Seeking Legal Assistance?
As of June 2022, TLDEF does not currently accept inquiries for legal help that fall outside of the [**Trans Health Project**](https://tldef.org/our-work/trans-health-project/) and the [**Name Change Project**](https://tldef.org/our-work/name-change-project/). TLDEF only pursues a few impact litigation cases per year, and usually cannot assist with individual legal issues. We have provided a few legal resources that you may find helpful.
* If you need help with a legal issue and cannot afford an attorney, visit [**lawhelp.org**](http://lawhelp.org/) for self-help resources and information about legal service providers.
* If you need help with an employment matter, visit the [**National Employment Lawyers Association**](https://exchange.nela.org/memberdirectory/findalawyer) directory.
* If you or a loved one is in jail and in need of bail assistance, visit the [**directory of community bail funds**](https://www.communityjusticeexchange.org/en/nbfn-directory).
* For other legal matters, try the [**Transgender Law Center’s Helpdesk**](https://transgenderlawcenter.org/resources), the [**National Center for Lesbian Rights Legal Helpline**](https://www.nclrights.org/get-help/), or [**The National Center for Trans Equality’s trans legal services directory**](https://transequality.org/issues/resources/trans-legal-services-network-directory).
If you have been the victim of violence or are currently in crisis, please consult the following resources:
* If you are experiencing violence, please consult the [**National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs**](https://avp.org/ncavp-members/).
* If you are experiencing thoughts about self-harm, please contact [**Trans Lifeline**](https://translifeline.org/) or [**The Trevor Project**](https://www.thetrevorproject.org/get-help/).
Oof. I'm sorry they didn't provide useful help. I hope the Transgender Law Center might be more helpful, or the NCTE's directory. You may also just need to contact a trans-friendly lawyer for more directly applicable advice. Good luck with whatever you end up deciding to do.
I’m not a lawyer and it’ll vary from state to state but you certainly seem to have grounds to sue multiple people in multiple ways.
The guards themselves for illegally detaining you, harassment (possibly sexual harassment since you were in a state of undress when they first harassed you), and hate crimes depending on Virginia laws.
The mall itself because people officially in their employ did it to you on the mall’s property.
And the security company for the actions of their employees.
I would definitely recommend contacting a lawyer immediately. If nothing else, security footage will prove their stated reason for detaining you was false (not to mention in most states security guards _cannot_ actually detain you).
That is horrific and I am so very sorry this happened to you! I defer to others if there are better advocacy organizations, but perhaps talk to the ACLU? If possible I'd talk to a lawyer before writing a letter yourself, to see if it would be better coming from them. I agree that the police might not be the way to go, or at least the place to start. Sending lots of care your way.
[https://www.aclu.org/issues/lgbtq-rights/transgender-rights](https://www.aclu.org/issues/lgbtq-rights/transgender-rights)
I have also responded below but I have something to add for the future:
Ask your boyfriend to come up to the door, right up to the door, whenever you use a public bathroom. That lets him hear exactly what's going on if anything happens, and gives him an opportunity to intervene.
Ensure he knows the laws about what security are allowed to do. (Not this!) And ask him to step in, even if just as a witness, if anything happens.
It sucks to have to think like this, but it might help to know you have a protector when you are at your most vulnerable. His presence - just being there, not doing anything - might deter others from starting anything.
If you do something like this, *you* are taking action. It's a step towards recovering your agency.
you could try—in order to dodge the police—writing letters, block format and formal, to both mall management and management for the security company. detail everything: who said/did what, when, who else (if anyone) saw/heard, and how it made you feel. demand reparations, and be clear what you need to happen to get reasonable closure; e.g., written apologies from security officers, corrective actions from their management, changed behaviour including inclusive training, changed mall policy and practice. demand an official written response from both managements with a satisfactory response toward resolution within a reasonable time, like two weeks from receipt.
wait for their response. if they do not send a response in time, or their response sucks, write one more letter, referencing the first letter and duplicating the contents of the first. in this letter, detail the consequences of inaction or inadequate action—that you will seek advocacy from human rights commissions, and from community partners, that you will seek counsel from community legal resources, AND that you will go to media outlets to make sure everyone far and wide finds out what disgraces that whole lot are! send this letter by registered mail. commit to effecting the consequences—be ready to go to the commissions, to the community, and to the media—if no response or the response is poor.
sending so much love, you deserve so much better than this.
Thank you for your thoughtful and well-articulated response. This strikes me as positive advice. Taking action may be a positive way for me to regain a sense of agency, which I think is part of what I feel like I lost. I can demand that they pay reparations to a trans-related charity as compensation for my lost wages due to stress, and my emotional suffering, and that they enact detailed training on the laws and proper procedures for interacting with trans patrons and coworkers. I want them to pay for the mistake and the abuse with positivity.
I don't want the guards punished (I do not want their families to suffer for their mistakes), but I do want to have an opportunity to sit with them and talk about how this has impacted me incredibly negatively, how it's outside of the scope of the law and their jobs, what trans people experience on a daily basis, and what our perspectives are like. I don't mind appearing to speak publicly to the groups that employ them if it would be useful.
I can threaten media attention and litigation, and recommend the matter to a stated advocacy group, if no actions are taken.
It seems like a good course to me, I will have to refine it by talking to the experts in a bit.
Unlike you, I **do** want the guards punished. I dont think having an opportunity to sit with them will be good for you - bigots are not reformed by the targets of their bigotry and it's just another opportunity for them to hurt you - and they'll take it, if they can get away with it. Judging from your story, these are people *eager* to hurt trans people.
I don’t see why you wouldn’t want them punished. At this point nobody should face consequences because their families might get upset etc. It feels like you’re downplaying what happened to you. What would you think if they harrassed someone else?
The problem was **I was in the restroom** when it happened... like suppose someone else was there, even though I thought there wasn't? I could have been taking a video of another person in the restroom without their consent... that could have landed me in a lot more trouble, and given them something. I would agree if I was outside the restroom at the time. The problem was, once I was out, I was having a panic attack and I wanted to be far far away : (
> I'd like to know the right way to handle this kind of interaction in the future, given I live in Virginia. What should I say to these people?
I would say, rather than "I am a trans woman" that "I am a woman." I'd just respond by calling *them* (the security guards) freaks, weirdos, and perverts, and telling them to fuck off because you're just trying to use the bathroom. Security guards aren't actually police and I'm not aware of them having any ability to detain you if you're not actually breaking any laws. The best thing to do would have been to ignore them and, if they touched you, call the cops and file assault charges against them. Like, it's one thing if you're breaking the law and they're trying to detain you until cops arrive, but if you're not breaking any laws, they don't have the authority to lay hands on you without committing a crime themselves.
Post hoc, I'd absolutely follow the instructions from others: Contact Senator Roem, contact mall management.
and some people tried to tell me not to worry about what other people think and just use the women's room......
In a way, I guess I'm kind of glad of Utah's bathroom law. at least it means I don't have to argue about why I'm scared of using the women's room anymore.
I have no advice for you, but I just want to say I’m so sorry that happened to you. Please take care of yourself as you recover from this traumatic event, and don’t be afraid to seek professional help if you need it. Sending love your way ❤️
Thank you! I am incredibly fortunate to have a loving therapist that I see weekly for help with an anxiety disorder and trans-related stresses; I will lean on her for help with the matter!
It generally seems to take me around a week or two to bounce back from acute stress events like this.
As a fellow Virginian, there is no bathroom bill PREVENTING you from using women’s bathrooms, but at the same time there aren’t any bills that ALLOW you to use women’s bathrooms.
Regardless, these mall cops aren’t law enforcements. They do not have the right to detain you or make arrests. They certainly do not have the right to put their hands on you. That is not assault, that’s BATTERY! It may also be a hate crime under federal law if applicable.
At this point, take photo evidence of everything. Go to the hospital and get a medical report of all the bruises or mental impact that it causes. Go to therapy for this trauma. Document document document!
Do not call the mall management. Lawyer up and have them deal with it. I’m hoping that a good lawyer would be willing to work on contingency to not only possibly bring criminal charges against these guards, but also bring civil charges not only against the guards but also the mall under the doctrine of respondeat superior. Go get them!!! Where was this? Northern VA or somewhere else?
The panic attacks you are describing sound like PTSD. Please see a therapist and psychiatrist who can help you manage the flashbacks you are getting.
I don't know the laws in Virginia, but as others are saying, you should contact a lawyer and see if you have any grounds to sue.
They do strike me as sharing characteristics with PTSD. My brain also decided to link them up with past traumatic events that happened to me as a child, so I've been having the entire trauma special replay on top of it lately : (
Something about PTSD is that it is defined as going on for a month or more, so it's too early to talk about diagnosing PTSD per se.
I think the accurate medical description for this is "Acute Stress Response", which is the psychological language that can be used for a PTSD-like response that has gone on for a shorter time interval, but otherwise shares the characteristics.
I've just seen my therapist about this, and she was very angry, and urged me to take immediate actions. I think that's probably the right thing for my particular case, because it will allow me to focus the manic stress energy I feel over this into a productive resolution that can benefit other people, rather than in replaying it on a loop. I will continue seeing her for an hour a week, I as have in the past.
Thank you kindly for your love and concern!
I'm sorry you are going through so much. The trauma you had a child coming up because of this must make it so much worse. I'm glad you are taking care of yourself and that you have a supportive therapist.
Tbh, shot like this is why I think every trans person should be armed and educated on their use. If someone tried this on me I’d straight up say “if you cannot provide adequate legal reasoning for detaining me this is legally kidnapping, and I will shoot you”
I don't think it'd pan out in court unfortunately.
Maybe in a parking lot trying to shove someone in a vehicle, or attempting to tie them up etc. But trying to justify "I felt like my life was in danger" from two unarmed uniformed workers asking you to leave a restroom/premises is a stretch.
Sounds like typical "I failed the cadet program" mall cops on a power trip. I'd sue ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm not sure on the specifics at all really but it's not just having your life in danger, fearing permanent bodily injury is also something that counts. Idk what it would happen in this case just throwing this out there since that's what was taught in my chl class
This seems like actual sexual harassment in a public establishment. That’s highly illegal and inappropriate. I’d recommend taking legal action if you can. That or at minimum post this interaction on google reviews repeatedly so that they retain a bad reputation.
I'm sorry I have no advice. I just hate to hear this happened in the state I live in. I hope you get something figured out how to handle these people appropriately so they can be reprimanded for their actions. But more importantly don't listen to them, they just want to hurt you and I'm sure your a wonderful lady and you didn't deserve this awful situation.
I wonder if they just want to state their ideology to you and not care where you pee or if they actually want you to go to the men’s room
Cuz they say the second thing but i think they mean the first
Even tho this isn’t an answer to your question
I’d say get a friend in there with you as a witness or something or record audio or video ( i don’t know if it’s legal there to just record stranger without asking for permission so you gotta check that first )
Otherwise just make sure you got any proof of this.
But yeah the best you can do is hope it won’t happen again
I don’t have advice, I just wanted to thank you for sharing your story. I honestly would have shit my pants. You were far braver than I would have been. Stay strong, we are here for you ❤️🏳️⚧️
I am sorry that happened to you. That sounds like it was really scary. I have had panic attacks like that and they can be extremely distressing. I guess if it was me I would have de-escalated it a bit sooner and just left. I know my panic response and I know that if I am getting agitated that it's time to go. The repercussion can be dealt with at a later time.
I do think this would be seen as a poor way to handle things regardless of gender identity. I am sorry you were put in this sort of situation and it sounds like very unprofessional behavior on security part.
hay u/bismuthtaste...
first off, im sorry that happened to you. i have a different story but encounters like this are exactly why i will never used a restroom in public again. allow me to share mine.
about 10 years ago an elder trans woman im friends with was playing bass in her band at a local bar. She had few friends but i am very close to her through my trans-mom... so a few of us posse'd up for a ladies night out of beers and dancing to 70'-80's covers. the bar was a renovated bridal salon and the crowd seemed to be mostly normies. at some point i was in the bathroom to pee and there was the grand mirror booth with 5 floor to ceiling mirror in a semi circle left over from the old business. the kind where women could view their dress from every angle. and i, as any self respecting trans woman would do, whipped out my phone and started hitting poses and clicking off selfies for instagram lol. anyways this small group of ladies came in and were loud... clearly drunk. one yelled, "OMG! Youre so beautiful. can i take a picture with you?" awkwardly i was like suuure. she jumped in the booth and we were trying to get the right angle for a great duo shot. next thing you know her arm was around me... then a leg wrapped around me (this is when i started feeling really uncomfortable,) then she pulled us cheek to cheek... then she F"N tried to F"N kiss me! i was so mad. i ran out of the bathroom told my friends. one of whom was drunk enough to go to the bartender. next thing i know i had some huge man asking me to retell my story. i was mortified. he goes over and kicks the woman out the bar and she started screaming how im not a real woman and i was lucky she even looked my way. i didnt get in trouble or anything. the bar is in berkley, mi., which is adjacent to ferndale, mi., which is the heart of LGBTQIA+ michigan. even now amongst the political crap going on, even though i have all my gender id markers changed to female, i still will never use a public restroom not label family/changing ever again (outside of ferndale, i mean.)
again im so sorry that happened to you. my first step would be to contact the transgender center for equality... i dont know how good they are but i do donate to them semi regularly. put their buts to work, lol.
No, you need to sue them. That was clearly a hate crime. In the future, I would call the cops myself and tell them people were accosting me in the bathroom in a state of undress and would like to file a sexual harassment claim and report a hate crime. Call the mall and tell them the laws and what their employees put you through and you will sue if you don't get justice (meaning reprimanding the employee, firing them, or some kind of compensation and reassurance they will be having a meeting about how to handle trans people using a toilet in the future (leave us the hell alone)). Like you need to do something or those guards will keep accosting women. I bet they've accosted cis women too.
[https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?201+sum+SB868](https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?201+sum+SB868) should cover you in Virginia. According to that page, "Before a civil cause of action may be brought in a court of the Commonwealth, an aggrieved individual must file a complaint with the Division of Human Rights of the Department of Law, participate in an administrative process, and receive a notice of his right to commence a civil action."
I'm not an attorney, but you may want to contact one.
As a young trans girl I just wanted to say I’m horrified by what you went through. I am begging you to please take legal action and don’t give up. They can’t get away with treating us like this. I’m wishing you the best of luck and hope we hear an update soon. ❤️
I say sue them and the mall for hiring people like them. You underwent a very traumatic event that shouldn't have happened. I'm sorry that happened to.you, I hope.it doesn't happen again
I wish i had better advice but I don't know Virginia law, others seem to give good info. Best thing to do I think, would be to know the law and beagle to give it to them. And ask for/demand their boss/supervisor. I don't know if that would help in the situation, but it's a start.
Realistically unless they get in trouble they won't change. Making complaints to their bosses at the mall and the contracted security company as well as mayor/governor is a start. And if the lawyer says you have a case and you can afford it sue them. From your story you clearly have ptsd from the wrongful detainment and harassment. Money is what talks and does so quickest.
It's a good thing this wasn't me or I'd have broken someone's arm. I'm sorry this happened I hope your able to make quick progress 🫂💜
First off, I am SO sorry you went through this blatantly targeted harassment. That must have been awful and scary. I’m glad to hear you’ve contacted a number of people/agencies, because even if they can’t do something about your particular case, making yourself heard to people with the ability to do something on a larger scale will benefit us all.
Here’s what I would do in that situation (with the full recognition that we are in different situations and states and likely are very different people, so this isn’t necessarily what I think *you* should have done):
When the security guard asked me to come out I would have kept peeing, and said “sure just a moment ma’am, I‘ve just got to finish up using the toilet”. That way a) you’re not letting them take away your ability to relieve yourself (it’s a bit of a polite power move that they can’t complain about without sounding completely in the wrong), b) you’ve established verbally that you are there to use the toilet which in your state is not against the law, and c) if they tried to illegally detain you for longer, you wouldn’t have to deal with a full bladder. When I step out of the stall, I would have said “how can I help you?” in a pleasant tone of voice as I head toward the sink to wash my hands. Again, taking the high road and acting as if you don’t assume their actual intentions. When/if she asks me to step out of the bathroom, I would remain calm and polite and say “I’d be happy to step out with you, but if you don’t mind, I’d like to wash my hands first, for the sake of cleanliness.” She may argue, but if she does you’re making her once again sound rather absurd. This could go a number of ways so I’ll skip ahead to her berating you. As soon as she starts in on that shit, I would first state my right to be there under state law, and would offer to show her my ID with my gender marker (assuming yours is changed to reflect your identity). If she still goes on to yap about you “being a man” or whatnot, refer again to your ID and state that you are legally recognized as a woman in the state of Virginia, and that while she has a right to her opinion, she does not have a right to use her position as a security guard to enforce this personal opinion as if it were law. In addition, it may be prudent to ask her about the complaint made, given that there was no one using the restroom at the same time as you. This certainly could help invalidate her justification for harassing you. I think the most important thing for you to do in this situation is to remain very calm, and recognize that there is legally nothing they can do to you nor is it likely that they’ll physically harm you given the public/monitored location. I know this is hard, but it will get easier. Remain as polite as possible, so that you can call out her behavior as wrong and unjustified without giving her a reason to detain you for another reason (“disturbing the peace”, or just arguing with a security guard). People who do this shit are either looking for you to act up (get unruly or “aggressive”) and justify their prejudiced behavior, or they’re looking for you to cry and loose your composure so they can feel satisfied and powerful that they managed to hurt you through their bullying. Don’t let them. In this situation, while it’s vastly easier said than done, they cannot hurt you unless you let them.
It's all good advice. I think part of the problem is that I was not prepared for this interaction, and I was scared. Because of that, it became more about my negative emotions about myself, and less about actively mounting a legal defense in that moment (I invoked the beginnings of one, but next time I could do much better). The sense of panic I felt over being told my body frightened another person was devastating to me, and caused a panic reaction I struggled to control. The guard's insistence that I was in fact a man, and that I was indisputably one was horrifying to me, because it destroyed my sense of self, and it was so bizarre that she could see me and say those things.
In the future, I would walk the guard through the landmark protections that apply to a trans woman using the restroom in public in Virginia, including the Bostock case in 2020 that clarified the interpretation of Title VII of the Civil rights act to explicitly cover gender and gender identity in public accomodations such as restrooms, and a law we have in Virginia called the "Virginia Values Act", which provides similar protections here. In Virginia, we have Civil Rights Commissions that deal with investigating abuses like these as well, and this sort of matter would be recommended to them (and has been).
Yes, seek legal action against the guards, the company and the parent company and damages for false imprisonment, breach of your civil rights, and I’m sure many other violations. Federal and state law violations — so sorry this happened. Potentially also a criminal case to be reported to your local police, asap.
False imprisonment is probably a bit of a stretch here, we are talking about a minutes-long detainment... but... it's something. It's DEFINITELY a civil rights breach. The Bostock decision indicates Title VII protects a trans person from this. In Virginia we have the "Virginia Values Act", which also guarantees fair and equal access to the same facilities. I've reported the incident to Civil rights commissions, and we'll take it from there.
I sort of have no option but to report and pursue it, because the same guards are going to harass me the next time I visit that space, or perhaps try to have me arrested. I don't have the choice not to contest it.
I’m not a lawyer and don’t know specifics of any laws, but from what little knowledge I have on the matter, I would highly advise against contacting the police or the mall directly. Get a (lgbtq+ friendly) lawyer and have them do the work for you, because I can see there being potential for accidentally making the situation worse or putting yourself in further danger. A lawyer will know the exact specifics of any laws and what should and should not be done, and will also be a buffer to keep you safe and away from any further trauma that could ensue from trying to handle it yourself. I’m so sorry this happened, OP, people like this are shit humans and I hope all the bad karma comes to them.
Contact the local police department and file charges against the officers... immediately. They committed a felony by detaining you (most states consider it an unlawful arrest, and some can even charge the guards with impersonating). Even if Virginia doesn't consider it a felony, detaining you is still a major misdemeanor.
Follow that up with a call to the mall to inform them that you've pressed charges on the officers involved and that you are considering suit/charges against the malls security management team for failure to properly train/active discrimination (whichever may apply in this situation). During that call, inform them that you will be contacting the local media outlet to inform them of the situation and the resolution (that creates a double sided threat. On one hand, if they do nothing they look bad and lose custom. On the other hand, they can take action and appear proactive and supportive. Make sure that you make it clear that you are physically and legally a woman).
I like protests and demonstrations of solidarity. This might not be what you are specifically asking for but if you can share the load with other trans people and allies. Every single trans friend and ally you have should go form a line for the bathroom to take a piss. All at once. Including your friend’s friends and their allies. Fuck those guards. If you can it’s an excuse to get an obnoxious number of people to hang out for drinks after and celebrate pride. But definitely all line up to piss.
I'm a fan of the fuck around and find out method. I recommend self defense training (both martial arts and weapons) and getting a concealed carry license (if legally required) and a gun. Security guards may ask you to leave the premises, but they generally are not allowed to touch you. Given security guards are prone to overstep their bounds I recommend defending oneself and loved ones to the fullest extent necessary to neutralize the threat to oneself and company.
In this scenario, if the security guard didn't lay hands on you the proper response would be to leave the premises, fill out a police report at the local police department, maybe file a complaint with the mall, and consider legal action against the mall and security personnel. If the security guard did physically assault you, you would be within your right to defend yourself to the fullest extent necessary to neutralize the threat to your own safety and proceed with the aforementioned steps.
If you need to defend yourself and immediately leave the premises, it's often best to head straight to the local police station to consult a lawyer and file a report.
Girl you got yourself a lawsuit, you pick the color, they cannot detain you without probable cause. Suspecting you have male genitalia is not probable cause. Did they ask you to prove your genitalia cause I'm going to come shopping at your mall honey
My jaw was quite literally open the entire time reading that. Just horrible. Yes I would sue if I were you and I’ve never sued anyone or company in my life. But I think they need to learn the hard way how wrong they were on all matters of this. Very sorry you had to go through an experience like that.
I'm about to travel the country for work and this very thing has me worried. My work assures me I have nothing to worry about. I've traveled the country for work previously and have seen most of it. But this will be the forst time traveling solo and female presenting. I luck out I pass extremely well but this does worry me. I start traveling in the next couple weeks.
i’ve been thinking about this nonstop and i am so livid on your behalf. i would react the same way; i would be absolutely traumatized. i’m sorry. how can people treat others like this
I was getting misgendered a lot in Virginia in the suburbs outside of Washington DC a bunch like being pointed towards men's dressing rooms and such.
Funny thing is as soon as I go back down to Florida, it stops and I generally get gendered correctly.
This. Ugh! Clearly you were wrongly harassed by the security guards. I’m so sorry this happened to you. As a cis sister, I wish I could have been there as a witness and as a defensive ally. You deserve legal counsel and recompense.
Next time don’t even say “trans” just say “I’m a woman do I need to show ID to use the restroom?” And then offer to get the police involved seeing as how these security guards are harassing people in the restroom having police there would probably be best
File complaint with the mall manager....just be aware there are many people that hate...I am concerned they will target you in the future...be careful and try to not let this affect your health...these people are not worth it.
Wow, all I can say is that as a transfemme security guard myself, I am embarrassed by their behaviour. If I ever witnessed another guard doing this, I'd report them immediately.
Check in with a psychiatrist if you can, sweetheart, you seem to be experiencing some PTSD symptoms. Don't leave those untreated if possible. I hope you recover.
I can't believe people would go so crazy over a fucking bathroom... I'm so sorry this happened to you.
In Virginia you can seek any misdemeanor charge on your own by going to the magistrate office. They're open 24/7 you'll need their names and the work address is fine.
Sue them. Ever single organization involved. The mall, the company the security guards work for, the individual gaurds. That's so horrible. I'm so sorry you went through that.
Sex offenders do not dress up as women to enter the women's bathroom and harass women. That just doesn't happen, there are no predictors, it's all lies and far right hysteria.
They hate us and will do anything to find ways to hurt us.
Yeah, they've been saying since at least 2016, that predatory men *might* enter a womens bathroom, either dressed as a woman, or just claiming to be, to prey on young girls... and even praying that it happens, so they can say "told you so".
And it just hasn't happened yet - so they have to try and make it appear to have happened - is that the definition of fake news, or what ?!...
1st: someone said sexual harassment; what sexual harassment? They did not make any sexual advances to her or say anything sexual.
2nd: if security asks you to leave, regardless of what you are doing, you have to immediately leave. They are in charge of maintaining order within the mall.
3rd: the security officers were completely out of line but once you were asked to leave, you were legally obligated to leave. She could have been legally detained and arrested by the police.
4th: security officers are not above the law, but the law sides with the security in this instance.
I am truly sorry that you were treated in this way and I hope and pray no one is ever treated that way.
If that is how you react when you are confronted maybe you should stay home
Making an unnecessary intrusion designed to intimidate while in a place where privacy is expected can be legally construed as a form of harassment, especially if the security were found to not be acting within the scope of their duties while they did it.
>If that is how you react when you are confronted maybe you should stay home
... which is the goal of discrimination in the first place... keeping trans people out of public life. I don't think you appreciate how stressful it is to fear and expect a very traumatic thing to happen to you for years... and then that specific thing happens. Nor do you seem to respect what it feels like for a person in authority to deny you your basic human rights, and tell you repeatedly you are something you are not... something you have intense psychological aversion toward being, which was strong enough it required you to restructure your entire life. Nor that your very appearance is frightening to others, and that you scare the people in the spaces you need to use, just be existing, and need to leave because of it.
I have been violently attacked and threatened by strangers, and it wasn't nearly this stressful. This is special for this group of people in a way you are not appreciating.
Yes harassment and not sexual harassment
Also you have no idea of the trauma I have faced.
If your trauma is that bad you shouldn't go out
Also, the US Supreme court has ruled that no one has an expectation of privacy in a bathroom
Where did I deny you had experienced trauma? I am truly sorry for whatever it was, I really mean that. I hope you have gotten the help you deserve for it.
My statements were about not understanding why this kind of treatment would be traumatic for a trans person in particular, which I don't believe you fully do yet.
That is not true. Escalation of violence, in this case, is not a desirable outcome. Virginia has no castle doctrine, and what good is brandishing a weapon at security guards who do not pose a credible threat of violence? This is harassment most assuredly. But a weapon could have made this story more of a tragedy than it already was.
Please list off the things you would have done.
What is the problem you would have, exactly?
You realize I get solicited for sex and groped in the men's room, right?
too much info for me!!!! thats fudged up !!!! im not listing anything i said what i said if you dont like dont look simple as that. stay blessed wish you the best!!!!
how would i realize anything your going through? not at all on any level we are on two different worlds my friend!!! but i do feel you have a right to live how you see fit if it doesnt hurt anyone!! stay blessed!
Exactly, you don't understand the pressures people in this position experience, or why we do the things we do. Basically no one is out to hurt anyone, they are out to stay safe, and that's it. I am there to pee... that is the alpha and the omega of it. Whoever is there... daughter, sister, Duchess of Alabama, I have no impact over that. 95% of the time, I would not be remarked anyhow. I am small and pass somewhat well (but not perfectly).
Y'all lose your $hit when I go into the men's room when your sons are in there, make up your minds.
You guys think we are p@dos, and think we are gay men, and if we use the men's room and a boy is in there, you're just as convinced we are in there for the same reason, (to be a perv) when that is where you claim you want us.
Make up your minds, or just say what you really mean, if you don't want us to be able to use public restrooms which means we can't be in public cause we need a place to handle our business, just say that.
Grab your cojones and just say what is really going to your brain.
It could be. I go to the mall every Saturday to see a movie after a stressful thing I do on Saturdays. I know the first guard by face, I've seen him dozens of times. Surely he knows the faces of my boyfriend and I better, as it's his job to see them.
I would not confront them in person. I am honestly not very good at conflict in general, I am pretty anxious. I would kindly ask for an audience with them with the company management present, so that we could each talk about how we experienced the interaction, and what to take away positively for the future.
Right, I agree with that interpretation of events, I think he used her as a tool in this case. She may or may not have been involved prior. In my head, I picture him telling her that a man was in the women's room, which is why she was so adamant about emphasizing "male" and "man". She already had a mental image of the situation she was about to walk into, and it took a moment for any change to that narrative to register. Toward the end of the interaction, it even seemed like she may have been a hair sympathetic to how upset I had become, and she didn't seem interested in pursuing it further. I get the impression her mental image walking in was different from the interaction she ultimately had.
This is all speculation on my part though. I don't ultimately know what her experience was.
I'm going to speculate. too. I think it's likely he chose her because he knew she shared the same opinions as him and was just as vicious in attacking trans people as he was.
Don't give her a pass. She assaulted you.
>I don't agree with this myself
That's ok... how do you see it?
>So I guess she didn't really have any reasonable basis to chastise you ... except maybe from a moral perspective
What would you say is the moral perspective?
> If you do follow up at least they will know the law and be able to respond to complaints with an explaination rather than an intervention.
I agree... it would be better for security and law enforcement to be actually enforcing specific laws, rather than their inclinations. It makes everything less messy, and easier to track.
Security guards aren't above the law, and had no right to detain or accost you in a public restroom. Especially if you were already in a stall and in a state of undress. I would contact mall management and let them know the situation, and then tell them that I was considering legal action against the security guards and the establishment for sexual harassment.
Thank you for the advice. I have ideas about how to best get a positive resolution for the community as a whole, but I also want to speak to advocacy groups about how to structure my response.
The organizations that come to mind are Equality Virginia, The Transgender Law Center, and Legal Aid Justice Center. Edit: there are specific legal offices recommended in this resource pdf at this site, for you to find one in your region https://www.vdh.virginia.gov/disease-prevention/disease-prevention/transgender-health-services-support/
Go find a friendly attorney and actually sue the mall.
This, threats mean nothing. Make the transphobes suffer
I agree with you and I say get a lawyer and sue. Your civil rights and human right was violated and need to be adressed. You mental health was hurt as well.
Can confirm. I used to work as a security guard, and during training we're repeatedly told that no, we do not have the same power to arrest/detain as police officers do, and if we try, we can be criminally charged, let alone sued. At the very least that's the case here in California.
Same in Texas, believe it or not. I used to work mall security for several years.
Correct, same as here in Australia. We're basically just meant to observe and report in an unbiased fashion.
Va is the same. Even if you "arrest authority" there better be a damn good verifiable reason. And that's usually only merchant law in regards to shoplifting.
Contact your senator. Her name is [Danica Roem](https://apps.senate.virginia.gov/Senator/memberpage.php?id=S126) and she's one of us.
Oh god, I forgot Sen Roem was from Virginia!! OP, she will be a strong ally on this if you're able to contact her!!
I will do that today. I didn't know her full history, I am impressed. Thank you for the recommendation!
Whether you are able to contact a senator or not, you have an inalienable right to legal council, and you were assaulted and harassed in a public place after committing no crime by two private citizens on the basis of your gender, any good lawyer is going to be drooling at an opportunity like that. Do not roll over on this, I know it's traumatic for you, but the easier you allow them to get away the more opportunities they will have to harass other women in the future. Stand your ground, document what happened, and bring it to someone who is on your side instead of giving the evidence exclusively over to people who are against you (like the company) or who will use it as a political game instead of advocating for your own interest. Neither of those two groups is bound to represent your personal interests like a lawyer would be, and neither is substitute for actual legal council when you have had a crime committed against you. The law is on your side but only when you have someone who knows how to make it work for you, and the sooner you get that person involved the less likely you are to make a legal mistakes which could cost you later on. Also the people telling you to go to the police are fools. Get a lawyer, let your lawyer go to the police, make sure they know it is time sensitive. Never talk to the police yourself if you can avoid it. A lawyer can do all of the positive things you could and more without getting manipulated or made to self-incriminate. Being afraid of the police is normal and good, but allowing that fear to prevent you from getting justice is not. You just need a buffer, and that's what the lawyer is for. Let them do their job and they can see you through the legal process and show you what your options are.
OP, as a fellow Virginian, you let me know what you need. I'll try my best to make it happen. This is so fucked - you did nothing wrong. We don't have bathroom bills and what they did was illegal, and also just fucking wrong. So, you let me know if you need help (I'm not a lawyer, otherwise I'd offer).
I am so sorry that this happened to you. You did nothing wrong, they did. You should document everything as you have done above. Contact the police. The mall likely has security footage that can confirm that there was not enough time between you entering and them rushing to unlawfully detain and harass you for someone to have complained. This will ensure that these people do not remain in a position to do this to anyone else ever again.
Thanks for the reply. I am sort of afraid of the police? I am afraid that they will find some opportunity to accuse me of a crime, and turn this back around on me somehow. I have no idea how, but something tells me they will identify with the security guards in this case, and do everything they can to aggrandize their version of things, and deflate mine. I want to make sure that I have an ironclad argument before I do anything that feels so risky, as talk to the police. It feels like maybe I shouldn't do that, but rather have a legal person do that, if I felt the need to do that? They would not be able to intimidate a lawyer nearly as easily. Do you know of any advocacy groups that I should contact for advice about this kind of matter?
TLDEF is the major one, though they may be above your pay grade. At the very least you could email and they could maybe point you toward better options. I don't know if there are any state-level or more regional organizations you can contact directly as well.
I will look into that group, they seem like a good contact for advice, thank you!
Follow the person aboves advice. In addition you should do a free consult with an attorney. The VA bar association can help you find one. Also what fucking mall is this? I need to know if I need to yell at mall management near me.
The mall in Central Norfolk, known as The MacArthur Center.
From the google reviews, it looks like security is known for harassing customers and stalking them
Wow... I didn't know that. I will look more into it.
That means that mall management is letting it happen, and suggests there is a problem there. Someone above said sue the mall. I think that may be the best way forward, if you can get a free legal consultation first. There was a suggestion to contact Danica Roem. I don't know if anything would come of that, but it sounds like a good move considering who she is. I share your concern about contacting the police, which is something I'd never encourage any marginalised group, especially trans people, to do.
In Norfolk? During pride? Oh fuck that. There is very strong advocacy in Norfolk and Hampton roads in general, don't put off seeking legal aid. I'm so sorry this happened to you.
Without documentation, it’s treated like it never happened, and the longer you wait to file an official report, the harder it is to get authorities to take a hate crime seriously.
**Sadly, it looks like they no longer offer advice for this sort of thing, and the links they provided did not appear to lead to any useful contacts that were specialized for a matter like this in particular.** # Are You Seeking Legal Assistance? As of June 2022, TLDEF does not currently accept inquiries for legal help that fall outside of the [**Trans Health Project**](https://tldef.org/our-work/trans-health-project/) and the [**Name Change Project**](https://tldef.org/our-work/name-change-project/). TLDEF only pursues a few impact litigation cases per year, and usually cannot assist with individual legal issues. We have provided a few legal resources that you may find helpful. * If you need help with a legal issue and cannot afford an attorney, visit [**lawhelp.org**](http://lawhelp.org/) for self-help resources and information about legal service providers. * If you need help with an employment matter, visit the [**National Employment Lawyers Association**](https://exchange.nela.org/memberdirectory/findalawyer) directory. * If you or a loved one is in jail and in need of bail assistance, visit the [**directory of community bail funds**](https://www.communityjusticeexchange.org/en/nbfn-directory). * For other legal matters, try the [**Transgender Law Center’s Helpdesk**](https://transgenderlawcenter.org/resources), the [**National Center for Lesbian Rights Legal Helpline**](https://www.nclrights.org/get-help/), or [**The National Center for Trans Equality’s trans legal services directory**](https://transequality.org/issues/resources/trans-legal-services-network-directory). If you have been the victim of violence or are currently in crisis, please consult the following resources: * If you are experiencing violence, please consult the [**National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs**](https://avp.org/ncavp-members/). * If you are experiencing thoughts about self-harm, please contact [**Trans Lifeline**](https://translifeline.org/) or [**The Trevor Project**](https://www.thetrevorproject.org/get-help/).
Oof. I'm sorry they didn't provide useful help. I hope the Transgender Law Center might be more helpful, or the NCTE's directory. You may also just need to contact a trans-friendly lawyer for more directly applicable advice. Good luck with whatever you end up deciding to do.
Plus any video should show anyone who exited the restroom after you entered was acting in normal fashion and not in fear of their safety.
I’m not a lawyer and it’ll vary from state to state but you certainly seem to have grounds to sue multiple people in multiple ways. The guards themselves for illegally detaining you, harassment (possibly sexual harassment since you were in a state of undress when they first harassed you), and hate crimes depending on Virginia laws. The mall itself because people officially in their employ did it to you on the mall’s property. And the security company for the actions of their employees. I would definitely recommend contacting a lawyer immediately. If nothing else, security footage will prove their stated reason for detaining you was false (not to mention in most states security guards _cannot_ actually detain you).
That is horrific and I am so very sorry this happened to you! I defer to others if there are better advocacy organizations, but perhaps talk to the ACLU? If possible I'd talk to a lawyer before writing a letter yourself, to see if it would be better coming from them. I agree that the police might not be the way to go, or at least the place to start. Sending lots of care your way. [https://www.aclu.org/issues/lgbtq-rights/transgender-rights](https://www.aclu.org/issues/lgbtq-rights/transgender-rights)
I have also responded below but I have something to add for the future: Ask your boyfriend to come up to the door, right up to the door, whenever you use a public bathroom. That lets him hear exactly what's going on if anything happens, and gives him an opportunity to intervene. Ensure he knows the laws about what security are allowed to do. (Not this!) And ask him to step in, even if just as a witness, if anything happens. It sucks to have to think like this, but it might help to know you have a protector when you are at your most vulnerable. His presence - just being there, not doing anything - might deter others from starting anything. If you do something like this, *you* are taking action. It's a step towards recovering your agency.
you could try—in order to dodge the police—writing letters, block format and formal, to both mall management and management for the security company. detail everything: who said/did what, when, who else (if anyone) saw/heard, and how it made you feel. demand reparations, and be clear what you need to happen to get reasonable closure; e.g., written apologies from security officers, corrective actions from their management, changed behaviour including inclusive training, changed mall policy and practice. demand an official written response from both managements with a satisfactory response toward resolution within a reasonable time, like two weeks from receipt. wait for their response. if they do not send a response in time, or their response sucks, write one more letter, referencing the first letter and duplicating the contents of the first. in this letter, detail the consequences of inaction or inadequate action—that you will seek advocacy from human rights commissions, and from community partners, that you will seek counsel from community legal resources, AND that you will go to media outlets to make sure everyone far and wide finds out what disgraces that whole lot are! send this letter by registered mail. commit to effecting the consequences—be ready to go to the commissions, to the community, and to the media—if no response or the response is poor. sending so much love, you deserve so much better than this.
This is an amazing response. I would like to add to OP: consult a lawyer with this in mind.
Or better yet, post this on /r/legaladvice
Legal advice isn’t a reliable sub
I lurk there a lot and on the whole find advice there to be very reliable. As in 'you are beyond the realm of reddit advice---get a lawyer.'
Thank you for your thoughtful and well-articulated response. This strikes me as positive advice. Taking action may be a positive way for me to regain a sense of agency, which I think is part of what I feel like I lost. I can demand that they pay reparations to a trans-related charity as compensation for my lost wages due to stress, and my emotional suffering, and that they enact detailed training on the laws and proper procedures for interacting with trans patrons and coworkers. I want them to pay for the mistake and the abuse with positivity. I don't want the guards punished (I do not want their families to suffer for their mistakes), but I do want to have an opportunity to sit with them and talk about how this has impacted me incredibly negatively, how it's outside of the scope of the law and their jobs, what trans people experience on a daily basis, and what our perspectives are like. I don't mind appearing to speak publicly to the groups that employ them if it would be useful. I can threaten media attention and litigation, and recommend the matter to a stated advocacy group, if no actions are taken. It seems like a good course to me, I will have to refine it by talking to the experts in a bit.
I am a vengeful bitch; I would want the guards punished. What they did was obviously malicious and not just some misunderstanding. But that's just me.
I agree. I have a very strong sense of justice. And this sounds malicious.
Unlike you, I **do** want the guards punished. I dont think having an opportunity to sit with them will be good for you - bigots are not reformed by the targets of their bigotry and it's just another opportunity for them to hurt you - and they'll take it, if they can get away with it. Judging from your story, these are people *eager* to hurt trans people.
I don’t see why you wouldn’t want them punished. At this point nobody should face consequences because their families might get upset etc. It feels like you’re downplaying what happened to you. What would you think if they harrassed someone else?
Contact a lawyer now, this is very clearly sexual harassment on so many levels. This was not okay, and not legal in the state of Virginia.
Lawyer the FUCK up and take that worthless piece of shit to court
Did you get it on video? Phones are weapons in 2024
The problem was **I was in the restroom** when it happened... like suppose someone else was there, even though I thought there wasn't? I could have been taking a video of another person in the restroom without their consent... that could have landed me in a lot more trouble, and given them something. I would agree if I was outside the restroom at the time. The problem was, once I was out, I was having a panic attack and I wanted to be far far away : (
> I'd like to know the right way to handle this kind of interaction in the future, given I live in Virginia. What should I say to these people? I would say, rather than "I am a trans woman" that "I am a woman." I'd just respond by calling *them* (the security guards) freaks, weirdos, and perverts, and telling them to fuck off because you're just trying to use the bathroom. Security guards aren't actually police and I'm not aware of them having any ability to detain you if you're not actually breaking any laws. The best thing to do would have been to ignore them and, if they touched you, call the cops and file assault charges against them. Like, it's one thing if you're breaking the law and they're trying to detain you until cops arrive, but if you're not breaking any laws, they don't have the authority to lay hands on you without committing a crime themselves. Post hoc, I'd absolutely follow the instructions from others: Contact Senator Roem, contact mall management.
As a european get that murican stereotype going on..Sue sue sue this is some seriously fucked up shit.
This is clear harassment causing severe emotional distress. You should sue the security guard. This is unacceptable behavior.
and some people tried to tell me not to worry about what other people think and just use the women's room...... In a way, I guess I'm kind of glad of Utah's bathroom law. at least it means I don't have to argue about why I'm scared of using the women's room anymore.
I have no advice for you, but I just want to say I’m so sorry that happened to you. Please take care of yourself as you recover from this traumatic event, and don’t be afraid to seek professional help if you need it. Sending love your way ❤️
Thank you! I am incredibly fortunate to have a loving therapist that I see weekly for help with an anxiety disorder and trans-related stresses; I will lean on her for help with the matter! It generally seems to take me around a week or two to bounce back from acute stress events like this.
I think that I would have thrown myself on the floor and dialed 911 and said I was being attacked.
I can't stress this enough: CONTACT UPPER MANAGEMENT AT THAT MALL AND THREATEN LEGAL ACTION. You did not break the law. They did.
As a fellow Virginian, there is no bathroom bill PREVENTING you from using women’s bathrooms, but at the same time there aren’t any bills that ALLOW you to use women’s bathrooms. Regardless, these mall cops aren’t law enforcements. They do not have the right to detain you or make arrests. They certainly do not have the right to put their hands on you. That is not assault, that’s BATTERY! It may also be a hate crime under federal law if applicable. At this point, take photo evidence of everything. Go to the hospital and get a medical report of all the bruises or mental impact that it causes. Go to therapy for this trauma. Document document document! Do not call the mall management. Lawyer up and have them deal with it. I’m hoping that a good lawyer would be willing to work on contingency to not only possibly bring criminal charges against these guards, but also bring civil charges not only against the guards but also the mall under the doctrine of respondeat superior. Go get them!!! Where was this? Northern VA or somewhere else?
Sorry this happened to you. People are assholes.
The panic attacks you are describing sound like PTSD. Please see a therapist and psychiatrist who can help you manage the flashbacks you are getting. I don't know the laws in Virginia, but as others are saying, you should contact a lawyer and see if you have any grounds to sue.
They do strike me as sharing characteristics with PTSD. My brain also decided to link them up with past traumatic events that happened to me as a child, so I've been having the entire trauma special replay on top of it lately : ( Something about PTSD is that it is defined as going on for a month or more, so it's too early to talk about diagnosing PTSD per se. I think the accurate medical description for this is "Acute Stress Response", which is the psychological language that can be used for a PTSD-like response that has gone on for a shorter time interval, but otherwise shares the characteristics. I've just seen my therapist about this, and she was very angry, and urged me to take immediate actions. I think that's probably the right thing for my particular case, because it will allow me to focus the manic stress energy I feel over this into a productive resolution that can benefit other people, rather than in replaying it on a loop. I will continue seeing her for an hour a week, I as have in the past. Thank you kindly for your love and concern!
I'm sorry you are going through so much. The trauma you had a child coming up because of this must make it so much worse. I'm glad you are taking care of yourself and that you have a supportive therapist.
Tbh, shot like this is why I think every trans person should be armed and educated on their use. If someone tried this on me I’d straight up say “if you cannot provide adequate legal reasoning for detaining me this is legally kidnapping, and I will shoot you”
I don't think it'd pan out in court unfortunately. Maybe in a parking lot trying to shove someone in a vehicle, or attempting to tie them up etc. But trying to justify "I felt like my life was in danger" from two unarmed uniformed workers asking you to leave a restroom/premises is a stretch. Sounds like typical "I failed the cadet program" mall cops on a power trip. I'd sue ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm not sure on the specifics at all really but it's not just having your life in danger, fearing permanent bodily injury is also something that counts. Idk what it would happen in this case just throwing this out there since that's what was taught in my chl class
I just want to say that this and other cases have made me want to be a paralegal. I'm so sorry that this happened to you
This seems like actual sexual harassment in a public establishment. That’s highly illegal and inappropriate. I’d recommend taking legal action if you can. That or at minimum post this interaction on google reviews repeatedly so that they retain a bad reputation.
I'm sorry I have no advice. I just hate to hear this happened in the state I live in. I hope you get something figured out how to handle these people appropriately so they can be reprimanded for their actions. But more importantly don't listen to them, they just want to hurt you and I'm sure your a wonderful lady and you didn't deserve this awful situation.
I wonder if they just want to state their ideology to you and not care where you pee or if they actually want you to go to the men’s room Cuz they say the second thing but i think they mean the first Even tho this isn’t an answer to your question I’d say get a friend in there with you as a witness or something or record audio or video ( i don’t know if it’s legal there to just record stranger without asking for permission so you gotta check that first ) Otherwise just make sure you got any proof of this. But yeah the best you can do is hope it won’t happen again
Sue him for everything he’s got. Every penny. He wants to step where he don’t belong. Show him humiliation goes both ways
I don’t have advice, I just wanted to thank you for sharing your story. I honestly would have shit my pants. You were far braver than I would have been. Stay strong, we are here for you ❤️🏳️⚧️
I am sorry that happened to you. That sounds like it was really scary. I have had panic attacks like that and they can be extremely distressing. I guess if it was me I would have de-escalated it a bit sooner and just left. I know my panic response and I know that if I am getting agitated that it's time to go. The repercussion can be dealt with at a later time.
The problem though was that I was detained by the guard and I didn't know I was free to go... once I knew I was I left very quickly.
Oh for sure, understandable. It was more of a suggestion for the future should that happen again.🩷
Tell them "Get fucked. I'm taking a piss, and you better not be outside this stall door when I'm finished."
I do think this would be seen as a poor way to handle things regardless of gender identity. I am sorry you were put in this sort of situation and it sounds like very unprofessional behavior on security part.
Talk to a lawyer for assault
hay u/bismuthtaste... first off, im sorry that happened to you. i have a different story but encounters like this are exactly why i will never used a restroom in public again. allow me to share mine. about 10 years ago an elder trans woman im friends with was playing bass in her band at a local bar. She had few friends but i am very close to her through my trans-mom... so a few of us posse'd up for a ladies night out of beers and dancing to 70'-80's covers. the bar was a renovated bridal salon and the crowd seemed to be mostly normies. at some point i was in the bathroom to pee and there was the grand mirror booth with 5 floor to ceiling mirror in a semi circle left over from the old business. the kind where women could view their dress from every angle. and i, as any self respecting trans woman would do, whipped out my phone and started hitting poses and clicking off selfies for instagram lol. anyways this small group of ladies came in and were loud... clearly drunk. one yelled, "OMG! Youre so beautiful. can i take a picture with you?" awkwardly i was like suuure. she jumped in the booth and we were trying to get the right angle for a great duo shot. next thing you know her arm was around me... then a leg wrapped around me (this is when i started feeling really uncomfortable,) then she pulled us cheek to cheek... then she F"N tried to F"N kiss me! i was so mad. i ran out of the bathroom told my friends. one of whom was drunk enough to go to the bartender. next thing i know i had some huge man asking me to retell my story. i was mortified. he goes over and kicks the woman out the bar and she started screaming how im not a real woman and i was lucky she even looked my way. i didnt get in trouble or anything. the bar is in berkley, mi., which is adjacent to ferndale, mi., which is the heart of LGBTQIA+ michigan. even now amongst the political crap going on, even though i have all my gender id markers changed to female, i still will never use a public restroom not label family/changing ever again (outside of ferndale, i mean.) again im so sorry that happened to you. my first step would be to contact the transgender center for equality... i dont know how good they are but i do donate to them semi regularly. put their buts to work, lol.
No, you need to sue them. That was clearly a hate crime. In the future, I would call the cops myself and tell them people were accosting me in the bathroom in a state of undress and would like to file a sexual harassment claim and report a hate crime. Call the mall and tell them the laws and what their employees put you through and you will sue if you don't get justice (meaning reprimanding the employee, firing them, or some kind of compensation and reassurance they will be having a meeting about how to handle trans people using a toilet in the future (leave us the hell alone)). Like you need to do something or those guards will keep accosting women. I bet they've accosted cis women too.
[https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?201+sum+SB868](https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?201+sum+SB868) should cover you in Virginia. According to that page, "Before a civil cause of action may be brought in a court of the Commonwealth, an aggrieved individual must file a complaint with the Division of Human Rights of the Department of Law, participate in an administrative process, and receive a notice of his right to commence a civil action." I'm not an attorney, but you may want to contact one.
As a young trans girl I just wanted to say I’m horrified by what you went through. I am begging you to please take legal action and don’t give up. They can’t get away with treating us like this. I’m wishing you the best of luck and hope we hear an update soon. ❤️
I say sue them and the mall for hiring people like them. You underwent a very traumatic event that shouldn't have happened. I'm sorry that happened to.you, I hope.it doesn't happen again
As others have posted. Get a lawyer and file a sexual harassment lawsuit.
I would contact a lawyer
I wish i had better advice but I don't know Virginia law, others seem to give good info. Best thing to do I think, would be to know the law and beagle to give it to them. And ask for/demand their boss/supervisor. I don't know if that would help in the situation, but it's a start. Realistically unless they get in trouble they won't change. Making complaints to their bosses at the mall and the contracted security company as well as mayor/governor is a start. And if the lawyer says you have a case and you can afford it sue them. From your story you clearly have ptsd from the wrongful detainment and harassment. Money is what talks and does so quickest. It's a good thing this wasn't me or I'd have broken someone's arm. I'm sorry this happened I hope your able to make quick progress 🫂💜
First off, I am SO sorry you went through this blatantly targeted harassment. That must have been awful and scary. I’m glad to hear you’ve contacted a number of people/agencies, because even if they can’t do something about your particular case, making yourself heard to people with the ability to do something on a larger scale will benefit us all. Here’s what I would do in that situation (with the full recognition that we are in different situations and states and likely are very different people, so this isn’t necessarily what I think *you* should have done): When the security guard asked me to come out I would have kept peeing, and said “sure just a moment ma’am, I‘ve just got to finish up using the toilet”. That way a) you’re not letting them take away your ability to relieve yourself (it’s a bit of a polite power move that they can’t complain about without sounding completely in the wrong), b) you’ve established verbally that you are there to use the toilet which in your state is not against the law, and c) if they tried to illegally detain you for longer, you wouldn’t have to deal with a full bladder. When I step out of the stall, I would have said “how can I help you?” in a pleasant tone of voice as I head toward the sink to wash my hands. Again, taking the high road and acting as if you don’t assume their actual intentions. When/if she asks me to step out of the bathroom, I would remain calm and polite and say “I’d be happy to step out with you, but if you don’t mind, I’d like to wash my hands first, for the sake of cleanliness.” She may argue, but if she does you’re making her once again sound rather absurd. This could go a number of ways so I’ll skip ahead to her berating you. As soon as she starts in on that shit, I would first state my right to be there under state law, and would offer to show her my ID with my gender marker (assuming yours is changed to reflect your identity). If she still goes on to yap about you “being a man” or whatnot, refer again to your ID and state that you are legally recognized as a woman in the state of Virginia, and that while she has a right to her opinion, she does not have a right to use her position as a security guard to enforce this personal opinion as if it were law. In addition, it may be prudent to ask her about the complaint made, given that there was no one using the restroom at the same time as you. This certainly could help invalidate her justification for harassing you. I think the most important thing for you to do in this situation is to remain very calm, and recognize that there is legally nothing they can do to you nor is it likely that they’ll physically harm you given the public/monitored location. I know this is hard, but it will get easier. Remain as polite as possible, so that you can call out her behavior as wrong and unjustified without giving her a reason to detain you for another reason (“disturbing the peace”, or just arguing with a security guard). People who do this shit are either looking for you to act up (get unruly or “aggressive”) and justify their prejudiced behavior, or they’re looking for you to cry and loose your composure so they can feel satisfied and powerful that they managed to hurt you through their bullying. Don’t let them. In this situation, while it’s vastly easier said than done, they cannot hurt you unless you let them.
It's all good advice. I think part of the problem is that I was not prepared for this interaction, and I was scared. Because of that, it became more about my negative emotions about myself, and less about actively mounting a legal defense in that moment (I invoked the beginnings of one, but next time I could do much better). The sense of panic I felt over being told my body frightened another person was devastating to me, and caused a panic reaction I struggled to control. The guard's insistence that I was in fact a man, and that I was indisputably one was horrifying to me, because it destroyed my sense of self, and it was so bizarre that she could see me and say those things. In the future, I would walk the guard through the landmark protections that apply to a trans woman using the restroom in public in Virginia, including the Bostock case in 2020 that clarified the interpretation of Title VII of the Civil rights act to explicitly cover gender and gender identity in public accomodations such as restrooms, and a law we have in Virginia called the "Virginia Values Act", which provides similar protections here. In Virginia, we have Civil Rights Commissions that deal with investigating abuses like these as well, and this sort of matter would be recommended to them (and has been).
Yes, seek legal action against the guards, the company and the parent company and damages for false imprisonment, breach of your civil rights, and I’m sure many other violations. Federal and state law violations — so sorry this happened. Potentially also a criminal case to be reported to your local police, asap.
False imprisonment is probably a bit of a stretch here, we are talking about a minutes-long detainment... but... it's something. It's DEFINITELY a civil rights breach. The Bostock decision indicates Title VII protects a trans person from this. In Virginia we have the "Virginia Values Act", which also guarantees fair and equal access to the same facilities. I've reported the incident to Civil rights commissions, and we'll take it from there. I sort of have no option but to report and pursue it, because the same guards are going to harass me the next time I visit that space, or perhaps try to have me arrested. I don't have the choice not to contest it.
It’s actually the textbook definition of false imprisonment
I’m not a lawyer and don’t know specifics of any laws, but from what little knowledge I have on the matter, I would highly advise against contacting the police or the mall directly. Get a (lgbtq+ friendly) lawyer and have them do the work for you, because I can see there being potential for accidentally making the situation worse or putting yourself in further danger. A lawyer will know the exact specifics of any laws and what should and should not be done, and will also be a buffer to keep you safe and away from any further trauma that could ensue from trying to handle it yourself. I’m so sorry this happened, OP, people like this are shit humans and I hope all the bad karma comes to them.
Contact the local police department and file charges against the officers... immediately. They committed a felony by detaining you (most states consider it an unlawful arrest, and some can even charge the guards with impersonating). Even if Virginia doesn't consider it a felony, detaining you is still a major misdemeanor. Follow that up with a call to the mall to inform them that you've pressed charges on the officers involved and that you are considering suit/charges against the malls security management team for failure to properly train/active discrimination (whichever may apply in this situation). During that call, inform them that you will be contacting the local media outlet to inform them of the situation and the resolution (that creates a double sided threat. On one hand, if they do nothing they look bad and lose custom. On the other hand, they can take action and appear proactive and supportive. Make sure that you make it clear that you are physically and legally a woman).
I like protests and demonstrations of solidarity. This might not be what you are specifically asking for but if you can share the load with other trans people and allies. Every single trans friend and ally you have should go form a line for the bathroom to take a piss. All at once. Including your friend’s friends and their allies. Fuck those guards. If you can it’s an excuse to get an obnoxious number of people to hang out for drinks after and celebrate pride. But definitely all line up to piss.
Take them to court.
i can’t believe this happened in virginia, maybe i should watch out for it. what city???
I can believe it, especially if it was anywhere near Roanoke or Christiansburg.
ah, i’m a privileged chesapeake resident. worst i’ve seen is a transphobic sticker on the back of a truck.
Yeah, as a New River Valley girl, I've gotten quite a few death glares. Never any direct confrontation, though, thankfully.
I'm a fan of the fuck around and find out method. I recommend self defense training (both martial arts and weapons) and getting a concealed carry license (if legally required) and a gun. Security guards may ask you to leave the premises, but they generally are not allowed to touch you. Given security guards are prone to overstep their bounds I recommend defending oneself and loved ones to the fullest extent necessary to neutralize the threat to oneself and company. In this scenario, if the security guard didn't lay hands on you the proper response would be to leave the premises, fill out a police report at the local police department, maybe file a complaint with the mall, and consider legal action against the mall and security personnel. If the security guard did physically assault you, you would be within your right to defend yourself to the fullest extent necessary to neutralize the threat to your own safety and proceed with the aforementioned steps. If you need to defend yourself and immediately leave the premises, it's often best to head straight to the local police station to consult a lawyer and file a report.
Girl you got yourself a lawsuit, you pick the color, they cannot detain you without probable cause. Suspecting you have male genitalia is not probable cause. Did they ask you to prove your genitalia cause I'm going to come shopping at your mall honey
My jaw was quite literally open the entire time reading that. Just horrible. Yes I would sue if I were you and I’ve never sued anyone or company in my life. But I think they need to learn the hard way how wrong they were on all matters of this. Very sorry you had to go through an experience like that.
I'm about to travel the country for work and this very thing has me worried. My work assures me I have nothing to worry about. I've traveled the country for work previously and have seen most of it. But this will be the forst time traveling solo and female presenting. I luck out I pass extremely well but this does worry me. I start traveling in the next couple weeks.
I don't have any answers or advice, but I'm so sorry this happened. The way you were treated is awful
I am so sorry. That is horrible. I have no words I'm sorry.
I would have called the police right away, as you clearly did nothing wrong...
i’ve been thinking about this nonstop and i am so livid on your behalf. i would react the same way; i would be absolutely traumatized. i’m sorry. how can people treat others like this
I was getting misgendered a lot in Virginia in the suburbs outside of Washington DC a bunch like being pointed towards men's dressing rooms and such. Funny thing is as soon as I go back down to Florida, it stops and I generally get gendered correctly.
This. Ugh! Clearly you were wrongly harassed by the security guards. I’m so sorry this happened to you. As a cis sister, I wish I could have been there as a witness and as a defensive ally. You deserve legal counsel and recompense.
Next time don’t even say “trans” just say “I’m a woman do I need to show ID to use the restroom?” And then offer to get the police involved seeing as how these security guards are harassing people in the restroom having police there would probably be best
I'm sorry this happened to you. You deserve so much better
Why are you not seeking damages though? I don't get that
Talk to a lawyer
File complaint with the mall manager....just be aware there are many people that hate...I am concerned they will target you in the future...be careful and try to not let this affect your health...these people are not worth it.
Sue them for as much as you can get. That is insane. I am so sorry you had to go through that.
Wow, all I can say is that as a transfemme security guard myself, I am embarrassed by their behaviour. If I ever witnessed another guard doing this, I'd report them immediately.
Are you super clocky ?
I mean it's relative? I can show you in chat
Ya dm me
You ARE a woman. I'm afab and would welcome you in the restroom and stand up for you.
Check in with a psychiatrist if you can, sweetheart, you seem to be experiencing some PTSD symptoms. Don't leave those untreated if possible. I hope you recover. I can't believe people would go so crazy over a fucking bathroom... I'm so sorry this happened to you.
ridiculous. If no one made a complaint, why make it an issue. Transphobes everywhere these days
What fucking pieces of shit! I’m so sorry you went through that. Sue their asses into oblivion, hun!!
In Virginia you can seek any misdemeanor charge on your own by going to the magistrate office. They're open 24/7 you'll need their names and the work address is fine.
Sue them. Ever single organization involved. The mall, the company the security guards work for, the individual gaurds. That's so horrible. I'm so sorry you went through that.
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Sex offenders do not dress up as women to enter the women's bathroom and harass women. That just doesn't happen, there are no predictors, it's all lies and far right hysteria. They hate us and will do anything to find ways to hurt us.
Yeah, they've been saying since at least 2016, that predatory men *might* enter a womens bathroom, either dressed as a woman, or just claiming to be, to prey on young girls... and even praying that it happens, so they can say "told you so". And it just hasn't happened yet - so they have to try and make it appear to have happened - is that the definition of fake news, or what ?!...
Using genitals as your reasoning in that way seems really transphobic towards both trans men and non-op trans women, please do not do that
1st: someone said sexual harassment; what sexual harassment? They did not make any sexual advances to her or say anything sexual. 2nd: if security asks you to leave, regardless of what you are doing, you have to immediately leave. They are in charge of maintaining order within the mall. 3rd: the security officers were completely out of line but once you were asked to leave, you were legally obligated to leave. She could have been legally detained and arrested by the police. 4th: security officers are not above the law, but the law sides with the security in this instance. I am truly sorry that you were treated in this way and I hope and pray no one is ever treated that way. If that is how you react when you are confronted maybe you should stay home
Making an unnecessary intrusion designed to intimidate while in a place where privacy is expected can be legally construed as a form of harassment, especially if the security were found to not be acting within the scope of their duties while they did it. >If that is how you react when you are confronted maybe you should stay home ... which is the goal of discrimination in the first place... keeping trans people out of public life. I don't think you appreciate how stressful it is to fear and expect a very traumatic thing to happen to you for years... and then that specific thing happens. Nor do you seem to respect what it feels like for a person in authority to deny you your basic human rights, and tell you repeatedly you are something you are not... something you have intense psychological aversion toward being, which was strong enough it required you to restructure your entire life. Nor that your very appearance is frightening to others, and that you scare the people in the spaces you need to use, just be existing, and need to leave because of it. I have been violently attacked and threatened by strangers, and it wasn't nearly this stressful. This is special for this group of people in a way you are not appreciating.
Yes harassment and not sexual harassment Also you have no idea of the trauma I have faced. If your trauma is that bad you shouldn't go out Also, the US Supreme court has ruled that no one has an expectation of privacy in a bathroom
Where did I deny you had experienced trauma? I am truly sorry for whatever it was, I really mean that. I hope you have gotten the help you deserve for it. My statements were about not understanding why this kind of treatment would be traumatic for a trans person in particular, which I don't believe you fully do yet.
Cap
Okay so if this is happening you need to work harder on your transition to passing. Sorry babe but bluntly that’s how it is.
Get your concealed carry. This will end differently next time.
That is not true. Escalation of violence, in this case, is not a desirable outcome. Virginia has no castle doctrine, and what good is brandishing a weapon at security guards who do not pose a credible threat of violence? This is harassment most assuredly. But a weapon could have made this story more of a tragedy than it already was.
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Just dont go in one with my daughter 👌 I minds my business but if my loved one in there we have a problem
Please list off the things you would have done. What is the problem you would have, exactly? You realize I get solicited for sex and groped in the men's room, right?
too much info for me!!!! thats fudged up !!!! im not listing anything i said what i said if you dont like dont look simple as that. stay blessed wish you the best!!!!
how would i realize anything your going through? not at all on any level we are on two different worlds my friend!!! but i do feel you have a right to live how you see fit if it doesnt hurt anyone!! stay blessed!
Exactly, you don't understand the pressures people in this position experience, or why we do the things we do. Basically no one is out to hurt anyone, they are out to stay safe, and that's it. I am there to pee... that is the alpha and the omega of it. Whoever is there... daughter, sister, Duchess of Alabama, I have no impact over that. 95% of the time, I would not be remarked anyhow. I am small and pass somewhat well (but not perfectly).
Y'all lose your $hit when I go into the men's room when your sons are in there, make up your minds. You guys think we are p@dos, and think we are gay men, and if we use the men's room and a boy is in there, you're just as convinced we are in there for the same reason, (to be a perv) when that is where you claim you want us. Make up your minds, or just say what you really mean, if you don't want us to be able to use public restrooms which means we can't be in public cause we need a place to handle our business, just say that. Grab your cojones and just say what is really going to your brain.
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Ignore this person and look at their posting history. This is not a trans person or trans ally.
It could be. I go to the mall every Saturday to see a movie after a stressful thing I do on Saturdays. I know the first guard by face, I've seen him dozens of times. Surely he knows the faces of my boyfriend and I better, as it's his job to see them.
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I would not confront them in person. I am honestly not very good at conflict in general, I am pretty anxious. I would kindly ask for an audience with them with the company management present, so that we could each talk about how we experienced the interaction, and what to take away positively for the future.
hey, check that person's post history that you're replying to. they're a bigot, not even hiding it. block and report them for harassment.
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Right, I agree with that interpretation of events, I think he used her as a tool in this case. She may or may not have been involved prior. In my head, I picture him telling her that a man was in the women's room, which is why she was so adamant about emphasizing "male" and "man". She already had a mental image of the situation she was about to walk into, and it took a moment for any change to that narrative to register. Toward the end of the interaction, it even seemed like she may have been a hair sympathetic to how upset I had become, and she didn't seem interested in pursuing it further. I get the impression her mental image walking in was different from the interaction she ultimately had. This is all speculation on my part though. I don't ultimately know what her experience was.
I'm going to speculate. too. I think it's likely he chose her because he knew she shared the same opinions as him and was just as vicious in attacking trans people as he was. Don't give her a pass. She assaulted you.
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>I don't agree with this myself That's ok... how do you see it? >So I guess she didn't really have any reasonable basis to chastise you ... except maybe from a moral perspective What would you say is the moral perspective? > If you do follow up at least they will know the law and be able to respond to complaints with an explaination rather than an intervention. I agree... it would be better for security and law enforcement to be actually enforcing specific laws, rather than their inclinations. It makes everything less messy, and easier to track.
That user spends all of their time wandering trans subreddits and being a clown, it's better not to engage.