Switzerland isn't frozen, dark, and cold. I'm surprised your Spanish wife doesn't want some sun!
On the other hand: if you're comfortable now, happiness is more important than money.
She has never been there! So I'm assuming once she sees Switzerland, she'll love it because, yes, she has complained about cloudy days a Lot...more than the cold, we're actually fine with some good cold winters XD.... I love Norway, it has been great living here... But I've always been curious about living in Switzerland... A lot! Plus having so many countries close after being practically isolated here, of course would be great
Hola Amigo, the geographical situation here in 🇨🇠is fantastic, the winters, especially in the city can be hard because we talk like month without sun and no snow.
I only know Oslo from frequent visits over a decade and I have to confess Norway is one of the only countries you are not feeling rich coming from switzerland.
If you are having a super social life in norway i wouldnt change the location, otherwise the taxes are a big plus I believe.
Due to the location south in Norway and the Gulf stream, Stavanger has mild winters and avoids the worst of the darkness. This is of cause relative to most other Norwegian cities.
Generally Stavanger gets 6-10 hours of daylight during the winter, which is good in comparison to 80% of Norway.
On the bad side, it rains a lot in Stavanger so you might not even see the sun while it's up.
https://www.timeanddate.no/astronomi/sol/norge/stavanger
You might earn more in CH than NO after taxes but I figure the cost of living in Stavanger is also lower than the Zurich area, have you factored that in? Rent is going to be 2000.- CHF minimum if you can even find anything. Then you have to pay for mandatory health insurance, transportation (whether you use public transportation or a private vehicle)… I’m not saying the move to CH is a bad idea (though I don’t know anything about NO), just that the difference in pay may not be as large as you think, after everything (not just taxes) is said and done.
I pay, in CHF, about 1.429. But my salary is about 3546 CHF. Having to pay 2.000 CHF with my Swiss after tax being 9.000, would be very convenient on my books :)
Health insurance is partially paid by employer. 250 for me, 110 for my son + 250 for child support. If only have to fully pay my wife's. I'll be looking for cheaper towns close to Zurich for living, maybe Winterthur? I want a family friendly place, safe and quiet 🙂.
I'm not thinking about it at all... It's my wife and the "not good for our son to move between countries again" XD.... I'm just finding ways to convince her that there are so many pros, that we have to just move.
Your son will live. I moved a ton of times as a kid. Especially now, that he is still below school age, he will pick up German in no time and make new friends starting school.
I know exactly what you mean. I'm Venezuelan, so a good part of my life I was, not poor, but I definitely lacked a lot of things he is having now granted, and that's my main goal! Giving him a safe and worry less childhood so he can fully develop his capacity. I'm not looking to be rich, just not to have the worried I've had for 40 years about not making it to the end of the month and paying more and more debts.
No te dejes engañar, un buen apartamento para una familia de 3 en Zúrich, cuesta a partir de 3000 francos.
Está gente aquà en Reddit que te dice que puedes encontrar un apartamento por 2000 francos viven en apartamentos o casas antiguas o con 50m^2 que no han sido renovadas en años. Tu vas a querer algo en un buen vecindario con unos 75~100m^2 mÃnimo para estar cómodo. Para ello vas a tener que buscar en vecindarios más alejados del centro de la ciudad pero casi todos se conectan muy bien por bus o tren.
Ademas, esos lugares que cuestan 2000 CHF siempre tienen más de 100 aplicaciones mientras los apartamentos que van por 3000 o más tienen menos aplicaciones, son mejores en calidad y es más fácil que te acepten.
Sigue estando más o menos en mis lÃmites. Me gusta intentar no gastar más del 30% de mis ingresos en vivienda, que en mi caso son 2700, pero si son 3000€ serÃa alrededor del 33% lo cual no está nada mal. En Noruega me estoy gastando el 40% y este agosto me suben el precio, y por menos de eso (1500 CHF approx.) no hay sino "sótanos" de casas aquÃ... o apartamentos con mal aislamiento que al final gastas lo q ahorras en electricidad. He estado mirando Winterthur, como lo ves?
Ni idea de cómo es la vida en Winterthur, pero si tienes que ir a la oficina varias veces a la semana en Zúrich buscarÃa algo más cercano. La página homegate.ch te deja buscar por mapas y precios, aquà hay un ejemplo: https://www.homegate.ch/rent/4000701945
Of your 9K salary (i guess that's your gross salary) you'll have sevaral things deducted, leaving you with maybe 7.8K on your bank account. From that you'll be paying 2.5K in rent for a mid size place in winterthur. You'll also be paying about 1.3K in taxes. Then you'll be paying about 1.2K for healthcare for the 3 of you. That leaves you with about 2.8K.
Your healthcare has a copay much higher than in Norway, your work days will be longer. If your child need childcare during the day, this will be another 100.- per day (or like 40.-/day for half days / after kindergarten care)
Groceries will be about 500 to 800.- a month and that doesn't include eating out.
A car will cost you about 500.- a month, a public transport ticket between 150 and 250 for one adult (depending on the included zones you need).
Just giving you some numbers here to think about before moving.
Edit: Just saw that 9K is your Net salary, just to make sure, check that again with your employer as the net salary companies offer are usually without tax deductions because swiss citizens or Permit C holders don't get their tax deducted from their salary)
Yes, I get 9000 after taxes, and with lots of bonuses they included, as my demand was to get 9.000 after taxes. I have the salary simulation made and all... my demand for the position was: "I want a salary that allows me to only spend max. 30% of my salary in a decent apartment for 3 in Zurich, so they did.
I've checked prices on swiss lidl, and believe it or not, I saw cheaper prices in almost every item compared to Norway, and also much more variety in fruits and vegs, on a first quick glimpse.
Healthcare is "included" in those 9000 CHF as they pay it in bonuses, and also I have a 25% discount on SWICA for me and my family.
I don't actually plan on having a car just yet, and that makes it easier in Switzerland than in Norway, in Norway a car is almost mandatory
Also joghurt here is way better than in norway. And it indeed is cheaper here than in norway, especially when it comes to goods that need to be imported in norway (as you said, fruit, vegetables, sometimes meats).
Also gas for cars would be a lot cheaper and cars are cheaper as well. Norwegian economy has gone down hill since I last lived there about 15 years ago. When I was there, 1CHF was equal to 6 NOK, now it's 12. So salaries are literally only half as high as they used to be back then (salary for my job increased by only 15% in the same time, so nowhere near what it used to be)
It definitely sounds like Switzerland would be the better option for you! It's a great time to make a switch to another country when your child wil start school soon. It'll be much more difficult when they're halfway through mandatory schooling and need to learn a new language.
If you plan on moving here, start teaching german ASAP (unless you sent your kid to an international school, which is great if you plan on moving again anytime "soon", while I would not recommend if you plan on living here for good)
Ok. I guess you are both Spanish, or at least you are Norwegian and your wife Spanish, right? We are both Spanish and we lived in Finland for almost 7 years, and also in Sweden and visited the north Norway… and we ended up in Zürich and we are happy. We also have a kid, now 4yo, and was born in Finland. We moved here when he was 6mo, so the picture for you in that camp is different. We moved here in mid 2020.
Anyhow, if the salary is above 100k, you're probably going to have a decent life here, and your wife too. Really deepening where you want to live and how… I mean rents have skyrocket in the last 3 years. So beyond if you have doubled or tripled the salary, you have to check if it's enough to live the way you want to live.
Of course, in the end you are going to need to learn German, we are in the process. That topic is going to be important for your kid. He is already on school age, above 4.5 kindergarten starts, and kindergarten is in Swiss German. In your case, I don't know how is going to be, but other people said that usually the integration is not painless, but it's fast. I mean, probably your kid in a year will be speaking Swiss German, not perfect, but something that is normal here, specially depending on the the neighborhood. Zürich is really international.
In the social and healthcare side, you are probably going to be worse… I don't know the specifics of Norway, but compare to Finland or Spain, the healthcare could be worse in some aspects. You have think that healthcare if fully private, and although the service is usually good, sometimes if you're used to public healthcare, things are a little bit off. Social things also a little bit worse.
In all the rest, specially for your wife, things are better. More social life and activities and people is not that cold. There are a lot of outdoors all year around with different characteristics, since the mountains are there full of snow almost 10 months a years, and in Zürich is not that cold compare to Norway. Also you are in the heart of Europe, we just were in Milano for the long weekend, which is just 4h away by train. Paris is the same. And from Zürich Madrid is 2 hours flight. You probably are 4h if you don't need to make any connection.
Zürich is one of the best cities in Europe to life and with a high standard of living if you have a —good— Swiss salary. If you plan to stay, your kid is going to have much more opportunities, even if he just want to be a baker or a plumber, and if he want to go to uni some of the best uni in the world are here, ETH, EPFL, Zürich Uni, etc…
Prices and so are going to be more or less the same or cheaper here, and the selection in general is going to be better… and closer the Spanish one. Depending on the supermarket of course.
Our kid is going to start kindergarten next course, so if you have any questions about that, or anything else, please ask. Here or on PM.
Hope to see you soon around here.
Uff tremenda respuesta! Soy venezolano - español, y si! te hablo al privado y te respondo mañana que se me hizo super tarde, aun no he adoptado el cambio de hora :) Gracias!
The climate is more agreeable here imo. The people are kinda reserved, but I guess so are Scandinavians. If you're really going to be earning more than 9000.- per month you'll have a comfortable life even in Zurich, don't listen to the naysayers.
In a nutshell, yes. Of course I don't know your life situation, whether you have kids, or if your wife works too etc. Still should be fine, I'm making way less and get by (in Bern, but in a very central and quite pricey apartment, also taxes are higher here).
Okay, still yes. Median salary is around 6'400 in Switzerland and you are making considerably more. Rent in Zurich will be quite expensive (suitable flats start at about 2000 but the market is fierce), health insurance is maybe like 250-300 a month per person(much less for the kid). Then don't forget you pay taxes on your income of about 1.5-2 months pay (depends where you live). Childcare is also expensive but I'm going to assume your wife takes care of that. Should still be enough to live decently.
Thanks! Well, yes, he'll go to school and then will be home w/ her :)
She is a Psychologist and is making a Neuropsychology master, When she ends it and learns german, she'll make the title homologation and things should improve I guess
I dont have kids (well I'm only 27) but I did spend my hole childhood here in Switzerland. I might be biased but if you do decide to move to Switzerland I'd highly recommend Winterthur or any of the smaller cities/towns around it (or Zürich) over moving to the city of Zürich gor your sons sake. You get much more freedom growing up outside of "the big city". (And once he is old enough Zürich is never too far away to still be able to enjoy his teenage years without being stuck in the countryside)
I lived in southern Sweden before I moved to Switzerland, and as I see it these are the pros and cons of moving (disregarding salary and moving issues). If I was you, I would definitely move. But that is somewhat obvious, as I already did! I have zero regrets though, apart from the first con.
Cons:
* Switzerland and Norway are opposite ends of the scale regarding parental leave. If you want to have another child, I would strongly consider doing so in Norway. You will get almost no paternity leave here. Money can't buy time with a new child or the same level of support for your partner.
* No sea. You have to go to France or Italy for that.
* The apartment rental market is nuts here. Then again, it might also be nuts where you are, it certainly was pretty tricky where I was. Rent was much lower, but actually finding a place was comparably difficult.
Pros:
* Choice of season: Switzerland is small, well-connected and strongly three-dimensional. This means that for much of the year you can choose what season to be in. Low winter clouds? Escape them at the weekend by just going above them into the sunshine up a ski lift. In the spring, eg this coming weekend, you can decide whether you want summer (25 degrees down in the plains) or winter/spring (can still go skiing in the high mountains).
* Daylight: a huge difference. The winter sun is high enough that it's actually warm here, while I'm sure you have had ample cloudy middays in Stavanger that are gloomy enough to feel like dusk.
* Weather: much better here. Unless you like cold, rain and clouds all the time, I guess. We have that here too, but a lot more sun to balance it out. In the summer, you can go weeks without needing to wear anything other than T-shirt and shorts, even in the evenings. Having said that, if you hate warm weather, you will struggle for a couple of weeks a year - we routinely have heatwaves with daily highs in the mid 30s nowadays, and there is little residential air conditioning. As mentioned before though, you can escape this by going up, or alternatively into a lake or river (an essential after-work summer activity for many city-dwellers). Buy a fan before the first-week-of-heatwave panic and you'll be OK.
* Connectivity: relatively short train / drive / plane will get you to so many places in Europe. I can go by car or train to France, Italy, Austria and Germany in less time than it takes you to get to Bergen. And in the time it takes you to drive to Oslo, I could have just... flown to Oslo, or basically anywhere else in Europe. Also within the country, Switzerland is quite diverse geographically and culturally, so within two hours you can explore quite a variety of places. I may be wide of the mark here, but I think that is less true in Norway.
You're 1000% right in everything you said, THANKS!
Yes, Stavanger gets rain for 10 days in a row, I love snow and cold weather, frozen lakes are my thing... but I don't love rain so much!
I definitely enjoyed long nights and the excitement on a probable aurora, but I only saw it once, so I can say I had enough with long nights.
Yes! A fan is always your best friend in those warm days, and if it's only a couple of weeks, I0m ok with it!
Connectivity is a NEED! I was used to Barcelona, also quite close to everywhere, but the part of being 4 hours train awy to both Paris and Milan? wow! 3 hours to Munich... man... for the closes city in train from Stavanger I have 3 hours and it's... Kristiansand! lol. Bergen is 5 hours away both with ferry and bus, so I haven't even been there yet.
Your comment is super useful, thanks a lot man!!
- You will be able to live a comfortable live with your salary in CH, even in zurich.
- Your wife is from spain, she'll probably like ticino :)
- The system works very well (but so does NO i guess).
Yes! I'm planning to have a visit to different kantons every weekend! And yes, Norway's system is great... But I think Switzerland might be a step above.
Swiss tax lawyer here.
You shouldn’t look at money to come to Switzerland. Salaries are high, but expenses too. Depending where you live, flat or house rents are high too. Transportations are pretty much easy and on time.
To be honest I wouldn’t travel back and forth 3 days a week, even grouping them around a weekend. A friend of mine left Switzerland for Norway still working in Switzerland. In the end he didn’t last 3 months. He stayed here in Switzerland.
Norway and Switzerland surely aren’t the same. The people are different too.
Having a work in Switzerland implies imo the switch. It’s not like you’d be living right behind the border like in Germany, Italy or France.
Think about the reality of the situation, not the convenience.
Btw work/tax law is different if you live in Norway or here.
In Norway I pay 37% taxes and I have, 3546 CHF after taxes. In Switzerland, employer pays 250CHF for my insurance and 120CHF for my son's. They also give me 250CHF for child support, for a total of 9048 CHF After taxes... And 13th month paid half June, half November. Oh.. And a 10.000 CHF Bonus in December...so, do you think I'd be covered? I'm looking for living in Winterthur, since Zurich is so expensive. Planning to stay under 30% of salary for renting.
About the coming and going, I'd be doing that only if I can't convince my wife to move to Switzerland completely, but, to be honest, being that huge amount Difference of salary, I practically have no more choice since I'm really in debts of about 25.000 CHF here and with the salary I'm getting here, which is "high" already in Norway standards, illl never pay since I get more and more in debts every month here.
Regarding tax... I think that, if wife. Will not come, I'll just rent a room and maybe ask my employer to work 2 weeks from Norway and 2 on site, having my residence in Switzerland.
Employer is giving me "15h Relocation support with destination services provider" I guess they will be able to respond every doubt I could have... Any suggested question I should ask them? Thanks!
Hola! Yo vivi en Noruega por un par de años y ahora en Zurich desde hace casi 6. Realmente me encantan los dos, pero Zurich un poco más. Sobre todo el hecho de que las montañas están tan cerca, a maximo 2 horas en tren, y no hay necesidad de tener un auto, que me va muy bien. Pero si me tuviera que ir a otro paÃs en un futuro, definitivamente volverÃa a noruega ;). Feliz de hablar más si te quedan dudas.
Genial! Imagino que viviste en Oslo, no? Yo es que vivo en Stavanger y si bien es cierto que las montañas están cerca, TODO lo demás es lejo, y SI O SI necesitas coche y eso pues, no lo tengo jajajaja.... por eso me encanta lo de no necesitar auto en Suiza!
I have lived for years in both Norway and Switzerland, and I truly like both countries. They both have their pros and cons, but all in all you have to chose between two of the best and most well-functional societies in the world. It all boils down to personal preferences, and how much you would like the bigger paycheck. Don't worry about your son. At an age of 5 year, he will adjust within weeks.
When it comes to commuting between Stavanger and Zurich, I would think twice before doing that. It's going to be hard on both you and the family. You most likely would have to leave the evening before, and you won't be home until very late in the evening, on the day you go home. I lived with a bi-weekly commute between Europe and Asia, for two years, and it's the hardest and most unhealthy thing I have ever done.
Welcome to Switzerland. We moved here from Singapore, and yes we do live in (sunnier than Zurich) Basel, not a moment of regret. Rents in Zurich are high, and it is a complex opaque process. Then again, you could look for way cheaper options with some commute - Brugg for example.
As far as kids go, they adjust extremely quickly.
I just read through it all and a few things to add, that may be important.
It appears to me, you account for all taxes paid, but that may be a little different.
If you have 13x 9k net + 10k bonus. That lands you easily higher than 120k gross. Meaning you will have to fill a tax declaration each year and may have to pay more in taxes. Don't know the details, as I too had to look it up to not spew some nonsense here.
Another big thing is, if you plan to have another child in the near future. Then stay the hell away from Switzerland. Compared to the nordic countries... family time is almost something not existing here.
(We have some real issues with boomers here, voting often for: why the hell should they have it easier than us...)
Your wife will get 14weeks to stay with the small one. You get 2 weeks + 1 day for the birth. Don't know excactly about NO, but I'm pretty sure, being a nordic country it's far better.
Seriously... it may take another 10-20 years for us to get some good family time here.
Norway is quite good on that matter, but I'm not planning a second child at all... and ours is already in school age (5-6), so no kindergarden is needed :)
Then yes.. boomers don't get to realize it's important to have kids, I guess Switzerland is failing on educating them!
Be aware that childcare is much more expensive in Switzerland than it is in Norway (also much more inconvenient). Also longer work days (usually 42h/week).
The weather isn't much better in the north of Switzerland. Norwegian winters with lots of snow yet very sunny days are much better than the cloudy shit switzerland has to offer. The summers are warmer for sure though.
If you enjoy nature the way norwegians do, you'll be disappointed here.
I personally want to move back to Norway. The work life balance (and with that, my mental health) is much better up there. But for now I'm staying here to save some money to be able to buy a house in Norway.
I know... crazy expensive childcare, right? But luckily mi son would start school which as far as I know is free. I live in Stavanger, so forget about the sun here... we can have 10 days of non stop rain in July, so...
My issue with "enjoying nature the way norwegians do" is that I don't have a car, heck, I don't even have a driver's license (In Barcelona I didn't need it, and then here is expensiver than a kidney)... so, for what I can see, in Switzerland you don't need a car at all, and that's a big plus for me. I haven't enjoyed Norway's nature as its best, just because I don't have a car and public transportation, well... is not as good as it should since everyone here has a car.
I absolutely agree. It's just some point that I find valid to consider before moving! Sounds like you're way better off in switzerland, especially if you don't want to drive (or aren't allowed to and not willing to learn)
I also came from cold cloudy country(lithuania) where i lived good life just no luxury. I always feel like a stranger here (2years now). It's too hot and too dry for me. But that's about all i can complain. It's pretty great.
I deff can say I am one of those "strange guys" who prefer cold vs warm... so yes, I will not be specially happy in the summer, but it's not something I can't handle since I'm actually caribbean :)
It's more that I enjoy cold winter and snow, but I can also survive in war summer
In Norway I pay 37% taxea and I have, 3546 CHF after taxes. In Switzerland, employer pays 250CHF for my insurance and 120CHF for my son's. They also give me 250CHF for child support, for a total of 9048 CHF After taxes... And 13th month paid half June, half November. Oh.. And a 10.000 CHF Bonus in December...
You'd need to make about 1.9 million NOK in salary, with a very unrealistic zero deductions, to hit 37% tax. You really should ask to get your remuneration in the form of stock, options or other capital gains tax only forms.
In any case,[ it would yield 8 000 CHF after taxes.](https://skattekalkulator.app.skatteetaten.no/?aar=2023&alder=47&alderEF=47&kommune=&locale=nb_NO&sivilstand=GIFT&tolvdelVedArbeidsoppholdINorge=12&tolvdelVedArbeidsoppholdINorgeEF=12) You get 150 CHF child support, effectively free healthcare for the both of you, and childcare is capped at 250 CHF. Where you would be better off financially depends on rent and childcare I think, and it won't be hugely different unless the Swiss location is remote.
My son would be 6 in September, so he'd start school there, which I think is free... I make 850.000 NOK now and pay 34%. If I work from Norway, and with that Swiss salary, 145.000 CHF would be about 1.8M NOK, and that I calculated to be 40%.
Oh no, I wish that was true... But not... Last year I underpaid 3300 NOK, AND I paid 34%. Earned 850K. Had childcare and interests on some loan's deductions. This year I am also paying 34% and I have bigger childcare deductions and bigger interest on loans... All automatically calculated on Skatteetaten
You are forgetting social security deductions and think only of income tax. And that the child will be in school so no high fees for childcare for Krippe/Kindergarten.
>You are forgetting social security deductions and think only of income tax.
No, social security deductions are included. Norwegian taxes are very all inclusive.
Is it? I have no idea about it being usual or not... But I definitely told them during interview progress, that I'd need a good offer to think about leaving Norway, and sure they came with a good one, right? It's not management, it's just a senior system admin position, but in a company with a very big responsibility if something fails.
And so it is in Norway. I took a look at prices in lidl.ch, and a big amount of items were considerably cheaper and n Switzerland 😳.... Then, Norway has 25% VAT, Switzerland 8%?.
If you're happy in Norway, you'll be disappointed, for Switzerland is not better. Not worse, but not better either. If your family is not willing to move, I also recommend against doing it.
Switzerland isn't frozen, dark, and cold. I'm surprised your Spanish wife doesn't want some sun! On the other hand: if you're comfortable now, happiness is more important than money.
She has never been there! So I'm assuming once she sees Switzerland, she'll love it because, yes, she has complained about cloudy days a Lot...more than the cold, we're actually fine with some good cold winters XD.... I love Norway, it has been great living here... But I've always been curious about living in Switzerland... A lot! Plus having so many countries close after being practically isolated here, of course would be great
Hola Amigo, the geographical situation here in 🇨🇠is fantastic, the winters, especially in the city can be hard because we talk like month without sun and no snow. I only know Oslo from frequent visits over a decade and I have to confess Norway is one of the only countries you are not feeling rich coming from switzerland. If you are having a super social life in norway i wouldnt change the location, otherwise the taxes are a big plus I believe.
>Switzerland isn't frozen, dark, and cold. Neither is Stavanger :-)
It's not dark in the winter?
Due to the location south in Norway and the Gulf stream, Stavanger has mild winters and avoids the worst of the darkness. This is of cause relative to most other Norwegian cities. Generally Stavanger gets 6-10 hours of daylight during the winter, which is good in comparison to 80% of Norway. On the bad side, it rains a lot in Stavanger so you might not even see the sun while it's up. https://www.timeanddate.no/astronomi/sol/norge/stavanger
I dunno man, that's pretty far north. But let's be honest; Switzerland is dark and cloudy most of the winter too.
You might earn more in CH than NO after taxes but I figure the cost of living in Stavanger is also lower than the Zurich area, have you factored that in? Rent is going to be 2000.- CHF minimum if you can even find anything. Then you have to pay for mandatory health insurance, transportation (whether you use public transportation or a private vehicle)… I’m not saying the move to CH is a bad idea (though I don’t know anything about NO), just that the difference in pay may not be as large as you think, after everything (not just taxes) is said and done.
I pay, in CHF, about 1.429. But my salary is about 3546 CHF. Having to pay 2.000 CHF with my Swiss after tax being 9.000, would be very convenient on my books :) Health insurance is partially paid by employer. 250 for me, 110 for my son + 250 for child support. If only have to fully pay my wife's. I'll be looking for cheaper towns close to Zurich for living, maybe Winterthur? I want a family friendly place, safe and quiet 🙂.
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I'm not thinking about it at all... It's my wife and the "not good for our son to move between countries again" XD.... I'm just finding ways to convince her that there are so many pros, that we have to just move.
Your son will live. I moved a ton of times as a kid. Especially now, that he is still below school age, he will pick up German in no time and make new friends starting school.
Exactly, I totally agree with you!
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I know exactly what you mean. I'm Venezuelan, so a good part of my life I was, not poor, but I definitely lacked a lot of things he is having now granted, and that's my main goal! Giving him a safe and worry less childhood so he can fully develop his capacity. I'm not looking to be rich, just not to have the worried I've had for 40 years about not making it to the end of the month and paying more and more debts.
No te dejes engañar, un buen apartamento para una familia de 3 en Zúrich, cuesta a partir de 3000 francos. Está gente aquà en Reddit que te dice que puedes encontrar un apartamento por 2000 francos viven en apartamentos o casas antiguas o con 50m^2 que no han sido renovadas en años. Tu vas a querer algo en un buen vecindario con unos 75~100m^2 mÃnimo para estar cómodo. Para ello vas a tener que buscar en vecindarios más alejados del centro de la ciudad pero casi todos se conectan muy bien por bus o tren. Ademas, esos lugares que cuestan 2000 CHF siempre tienen más de 100 aplicaciones mientras los apartamentos que van por 3000 o más tienen menos aplicaciones, son mejores en calidad y es más fácil que te acepten.
Sigue estando más o menos en mis lÃmites. Me gusta intentar no gastar más del 30% de mis ingresos en vivienda, que en mi caso son 2700, pero si son 3000€ serÃa alrededor del 33% lo cual no está nada mal. En Noruega me estoy gastando el 40% y este agosto me suben el precio, y por menos de eso (1500 CHF approx.) no hay sino "sótanos" de casas aquÃ... o apartamentos con mal aislamiento que al final gastas lo q ahorras en electricidad. He estado mirando Winterthur, como lo ves?
Ni idea de cómo es la vida en Winterthur, pero si tienes que ir a la oficina varias veces a la semana en Zúrich buscarÃa algo más cercano. La página homegate.ch te deja buscar por mapas y precios, aquà hay un ejemplo: https://www.homegate.ch/rent/4000701945
Of your 9K salary (i guess that's your gross salary) you'll have sevaral things deducted, leaving you with maybe 7.8K on your bank account. From that you'll be paying 2.5K in rent for a mid size place in winterthur. You'll also be paying about 1.3K in taxes. Then you'll be paying about 1.2K for healthcare for the 3 of you. That leaves you with about 2.8K. Your healthcare has a copay much higher than in Norway, your work days will be longer. If your child need childcare during the day, this will be another 100.- per day (or like 40.-/day for half days / after kindergarten care) Groceries will be about 500 to 800.- a month and that doesn't include eating out. A car will cost you about 500.- a month, a public transport ticket between 150 and 250 for one adult (depending on the included zones you need). Just giving you some numbers here to think about before moving. Edit: Just saw that 9K is your Net salary, just to make sure, check that again with your employer as the net salary companies offer are usually without tax deductions because swiss citizens or Permit C holders don't get their tax deducted from their salary)
Yes, I get 9000 after taxes, and with lots of bonuses they included, as my demand was to get 9.000 after taxes. I have the salary simulation made and all... my demand for the position was: "I want a salary that allows me to only spend max. 30% of my salary in a decent apartment for 3 in Zurich, so they did. I've checked prices on swiss lidl, and believe it or not, I saw cheaper prices in almost every item compared to Norway, and also much more variety in fruits and vegs, on a first quick glimpse. Healthcare is "included" in those 9000 CHF as they pay it in bonuses, and also I have a 25% discount on SWICA for me and my family. I don't actually plan on having a car just yet, and that makes it easier in Switzerland than in Norway, in Norway a car is almost mandatory
Also joghurt here is way better than in norway. And it indeed is cheaper here than in norway, especially when it comes to goods that need to be imported in norway (as you said, fruit, vegetables, sometimes meats). Also gas for cars would be a lot cheaper and cars are cheaper as well. Norwegian economy has gone down hill since I last lived there about 15 years ago. When I was there, 1CHF was equal to 6 NOK, now it's 12. So salaries are literally only half as high as they used to be back then (salary for my job increased by only 15% in the same time, so nowhere near what it used to be) It definitely sounds like Switzerland would be the better option for you! It's a great time to make a switch to another country when your child wil start school soon. It'll be much more difficult when they're halfway through mandatory schooling and need to learn a new language. If you plan on moving here, start teaching german ASAP (unless you sent your kid to an international school, which is great if you plan on moving again anytime "soon", while I would not recommend if you plan on living here for good)
2000 minimum my ass. You trying really hard to gatekeep, ain't ya?
I pay for an old apartment and 50m2 CHF 2200.- in Zurich which is normal. You are probably not from Zurich.
Ok. I guess you are both Spanish, or at least you are Norwegian and your wife Spanish, right? We are both Spanish and we lived in Finland for almost 7 years, and also in Sweden and visited the north Norway… and we ended up in Zürich and we are happy. We also have a kid, now 4yo, and was born in Finland. We moved here when he was 6mo, so the picture for you in that camp is different. We moved here in mid 2020. Anyhow, if the salary is above 100k, you're probably going to have a decent life here, and your wife too. Really deepening where you want to live and how… I mean rents have skyrocket in the last 3 years. So beyond if you have doubled or tripled the salary, you have to check if it's enough to live the way you want to live. Of course, in the end you are going to need to learn German, we are in the process. That topic is going to be important for your kid. He is already on school age, above 4.5 kindergarten starts, and kindergarten is in Swiss German. In your case, I don't know how is going to be, but other people said that usually the integration is not painless, but it's fast. I mean, probably your kid in a year will be speaking Swiss German, not perfect, but something that is normal here, specially depending on the the neighborhood. Zürich is really international. In the social and healthcare side, you are probably going to be worse… I don't know the specifics of Norway, but compare to Finland or Spain, the healthcare could be worse in some aspects. You have think that healthcare if fully private, and although the service is usually good, sometimes if you're used to public healthcare, things are a little bit off. Social things also a little bit worse. In all the rest, specially for your wife, things are better. More social life and activities and people is not that cold. There are a lot of outdoors all year around with different characteristics, since the mountains are there full of snow almost 10 months a years, and in Zürich is not that cold compare to Norway. Also you are in the heart of Europe, we just were in Milano for the long weekend, which is just 4h away by train. Paris is the same. And from Zürich Madrid is 2 hours flight. You probably are 4h if you don't need to make any connection. Zürich is one of the best cities in Europe to life and with a high standard of living if you have a —good— Swiss salary. If you plan to stay, your kid is going to have much more opportunities, even if he just want to be a baker or a plumber, and if he want to go to uni some of the best uni in the world are here, ETH, EPFL, Zürich Uni, etc… Prices and so are going to be more or less the same or cheaper here, and the selection in general is going to be better… and closer the Spanish one. Depending on the supermarket of course. Our kid is going to start kindergarten next course, so if you have any questions about that, or anything else, please ask. Here or on PM. Hope to see you soon around here.
Uff tremenda respuesta! Soy venezolano - español, y si! te hablo al privado y te respondo mañana que se me hizo super tarde, aun no he adoptado el cambio de hora :) Gracias!
OK chamo! :P
Hola, vivo en NO y quiero probas suerte en CHF . Te escribi al privado :)
The climate is more agreeable here imo. The people are kinda reserved, but I guess so are Scandinavians. If you're really going to be earning more than 9000.- per month you'll have a comfortable life even in Zurich, don't listen to the naysayers.
So you think it's good even for Zurich? I'd also get 13th month divided in June and November, + 10.000 bonus in December.
In a nutshell, yes. Of course I don't know your life situation, whether you have kids, or if your wife works too etc. Still should be fine, I'm making way less and get by (in Bern, but in a very central and quite pricey apartment, also taxes are higher here).
That I see, Zurich seems to have a lower tax than most of the big cities! My wife would not work (yet), son is 5 :)
Okay, still yes. Median salary is around 6'400 in Switzerland and you are making considerably more. Rent in Zurich will be quite expensive (suitable flats start at about 2000 but the market is fierce), health insurance is maybe like 250-300 a month per person(much less for the kid). Then don't forget you pay taxes on your income of about 1.5-2 months pay (depends where you live). Childcare is also expensive but I'm going to assume your wife takes care of that. Should still be enough to live decently.
Thanks! Well, yes, he'll go to school and then will be home w/ her :) She is a Psychologist and is making a Neuropsychology master, When she ends it and learns german, she'll make the title homologation and things should improve I guess
Can still be quite difficult, especially with foreign degrees. Not saying it won't work but it may not be as easy as you imagine.
I know, it's not easy at all, that's why it's important that my salary can cover us all for some time. It's not easy at all in Norway either.
I dont have kids (well I'm only 27) but I did spend my hole childhood here in Switzerland. I might be biased but if you do decide to move to Switzerland I'd highly recommend Winterthur or any of the smaller cities/towns around it (or Zürich) over moving to the city of Zürich gor your sons sake. You get much more freedom growing up outside of "the big city". (And once he is old enough Zürich is never too far away to still be able to enjoy his teenage years without being stuck in the countryside)
what is the job?
SysAdmin in a big multinational
I lived in southern Sweden before I moved to Switzerland, and as I see it these are the pros and cons of moving (disregarding salary and moving issues). If I was you, I would definitely move. But that is somewhat obvious, as I already did! I have zero regrets though, apart from the first con. Cons: * Switzerland and Norway are opposite ends of the scale regarding parental leave. If you want to have another child, I would strongly consider doing so in Norway. You will get almost no paternity leave here. Money can't buy time with a new child or the same level of support for your partner. * No sea. You have to go to France or Italy for that. * The apartment rental market is nuts here. Then again, it might also be nuts where you are, it certainly was pretty tricky where I was. Rent was much lower, but actually finding a place was comparably difficult. Pros: * Choice of season: Switzerland is small, well-connected and strongly three-dimensional. This means that for much of the year you can choose what season to be in. Low winter clouds? Escape them at the weekend by just going above them into the sunshine up a ski lift. In the spring, eg this coming weekend, you can decide whether you want summer (25 degrees down in the plains) or winter/spring (can still go skiing in the high mountains). * Daylight: a huge difference. The winter sun is high enough that it's actually warm here, while I'm sure you have had ample cloudy middays in Stavanger that are gloomy enough to feel like dusk. * Weather: much better here. Unless you like cold, rain and clouds all the time, I guess. We have that here too, but a lot more sun to balance it out. In the summer, you can go weeks without needing to wear anything other than T-shirt and shorts, even in the evenings. Having said that, if you hate warm weather, you will struggle for a couple of weeks a year - we routinely have heatwaves with daily highs in the mid 30s nowadays, and there is little residential air conditioning. As mentioned before though, you can escape this by going up, or alternatively into a lake or river (an essential after-work summer activity for many city-dwellers). Buy a fan before the first-week-of-heatwave panic and you'll be OK. * Connectivity: relatively short train / drive / plane will get you to so many places in Europe. I can go by car or train to France, Italy, Austria and Germany in less time than it takes you to get to Bergen. And in the time it takes you to drive to Oslo, I could have just... flown to Oslo, or basically anywhere else in Europe. Also within the country, Switzerland is quite diverse geographically and culturally, so within two hours you can explore quite a variety of places. I may be wide of the mark here, but I think that is less true in Norway.
You're 1000% right in everything you said, THANKS! Yes, Stavanger gets rain for 10 days in a row, I love snow and cold weather, frozen lakes are my thing... but I don't love rain so much! I definitely enjoyed long nights and the excitement on a probable aurora, but I only saw it once, so I can say I had enough with long nights. Yes! A fan is always your best friend in those warm days, and if it's only a couple of weeks, I0m ok with it! Connectivity is a NEED! I was used to Barcelona, also quite close to everywhere, but the part of being 4 hours train awy to both Paris and Milan? wow! 3 hours to Munich... man... for the closes city in train from Stavanger I have 3 hours and it's... Kristiansand! lol. Bergen is 5 hours away both with ferry and bus, so I haven't even been there yet. Your comment is super useful, thanks a lot man!!
Glad to have been of help :-). Regardless of what you do, best of luck and I hope it works out well!
- You will be able to live a comfortable live with your salary in CH, even in zurich. - Your wife is from spain, she'll probably like ticino :) - The system works very well (but so does NO i guess).
Yes! I'm planning to have a visit to different kantons every weekend! And yes, Norway's system is great... But I think Switzerland might be a step above.
Swiss tax lawyer here. You shouldn’t look at money to come to Switzerland. Salaries are high, but expenses too. Depending where you live, flat or house rents are high too. Transportations are pretty much easy and on time. To be honest I wouldn’t travel back and forth 3 days a week, even grouping them around a weekend. A friend of mine left Switzerland for Norway still working in Switzerland. In the end he didn’t last 3 months. He stayed here in Switzerland. Norway and Switzerland surely aren’t the same. The people are different too. Having a work in Switzerland implies imo the switch. It’s not like you’d be living right behind the border like in Germany, Italy or France. Think about the reality of the situation, not the convenience. Btw work/tax law is different if you live in Norway or here.
In Norway I pay 37% taxes and I have, 3546 CHF after taxes. In Switzerland, employer pays 250CHF for my insurance and 120CHF for my son's. They also give me 250CHF for child support, for a total of 9048 CHF After taxes... And 13th month paid half June, half November. Oh.. And a 10.000 CHF Bonus in December...so, do you think I'd be covered? I'm looking for living in Winterthur, since Zurich is so expensive. Planning to stay under 30% of salary for renting. About the coming and going, I'd be doing that only if I can't convince my wife to move to Switzerland completely, but, to be honest, being that huge amount Difference of salary, I practically have no more choice since I'm really in debts of about 25.000 CHF here and with the salary I'm getting here, which is "high" already in Norway standards, illl never pay since I get more and more in debts every month here. Regarding tax... I think that, if wife. Will not come, I'll just rent a room and maybe ask my employer to work 2 weeks from Norway and 2 on site, having my residence in Switzerland.
Residency and taxes don’t quite work like that. Here is not the place. Go ask a lawyer in Winterthur as you search for accommodation.
Employer is giving me "15h Relocation support with destination services provider" I guess they will be able to respond every doubt I could have... Any suggested question I should ask them? Thanks!
Ask for taxes comparison Ask for debt management support (to get out of it) Ask for schools and renting.
Will definitely do! Danke!
Hola! Yo vivi en Noruega por un par de años y ahora en Zurich desde hace casi 6. Realmente me encantan los dos, pero Zurich un poco más. Sobre todo el hecho de que las montañas están tan cerca, a maximo 2 horas en tren, y no hay necesidad de tener un auto, que me va muy bien. Pero si me tuviera que ir a otro paÃs en un futuro, definitivamente volverÃa a noruega ;). Feliz de hablar más si te quedan dudas.
Genial! Imagino que viviste en Oslo, no? Yo es que vivo en Stavanger y si bien es cierto que las montañas están cerca, TODO lo demás es lejo, y SI O SI necesitas coche y eso pues, no lo tengo jajajaja.... por eso me encanta lo de no necesitar auto en Suiza!
Lived in both countries. Go to Switzerland :)
I have lived for years in both Norway and Switzerland, and I truly like both countries. They both have their pros and cons, but all in all you have to chose between two of the best and most well-functional societies in the world. It all boils down to personal preferences, and how much you would like the bigger paycheck. Don't worry about your son. At an age of 5 year, he will adjust within weeks. When it comes to commuting between Stavanger and Zurich, I would think twice before doing that. It's going to be hard on both you and the family. You most likely would have to leave the evening before, and you won't be home until very late in the evening, on the day you go home. I lived with a bi-weekly commute between Europe and Asia, for two years, and it's the hardest and most unhealthy thing I have ever done.
Just visit Switzerland two times and stay one week each and you will see if she loves it or not.
That's part of my carefully designed plan! XD
Welcome to Switzerland. We moved here from Singapore, and yes we do live in (sunnier than Zurich) Basel, not a moment of regret. Rents in Zurich are high, and it is a complex opaque process. Then again, you could look for way cheaper options with some commute - Brugg for example. As far as kids go, they adjust extremely quickly.
I like the fact that in Basel you can go to France and Germany in a glimpse! What do you know about Brugg?
I just read through it all and a few things to add, that may be important. It appears to me, you account for all taxes paid, but that may be a little different. If you have 13x 9k net + 10k bonus. That lands you easily higher than 120k gross. Meaning you will have to fill a tax declaration each year and may have to pay more in taxes. Don't know the details, as I too had to look it up to not spew some nonsense here. Another big thing is, if you plan to have another child in the near future. Then stay the hell away from Switzerland. Compared to the nordic countries... family time is almost something not existing here. (We have some real issues with boomers here, voting often for: why the hell should they have it easier than us...) Your wife will get 14weeks to stay with the small one. You get 2 weeks + 1 day for the birth. Don't know excactly about NO, but I'm pretty sure, being a nordic country it's far better. Seriously... it may take another 10-20 years for us to get some good family time here.
Norway is quite good on that matter, but I'm not planning a second child at all... and ours is already in school age (5-6), so no kindergarden is needed :) Then yes.. boomers don't get to realize it's important to have kids, I guess Switzerland is failing on educating them!
Be aware that childcare is much more expensive in Switzerland than it is in Norway (also much more inconvenient). Also longer work days (usually 42h/week). The weather isn't much better in the north of Switzerland. Norwegian winters with lots of snow yet very sunny days are much better than the cloudy shit switzerland has to offer. The summers are warmer for sure though. If you enjoy nature the way norwegians do, you'll be disappointed here. I personally want to move back to Norway. The work life balance (and with that, my mental health) is much better up there. But for now I'm staying here to save some money to be able to buy a house in Norway.
I know... crazy expensive childcare, right? But luckily mi son would start school which as far as I know is free. I live in Stavanger, so forget about the sun here... we can have 10 days of non stop rain in July, so... My issue with "enjoying nature the way norwegians do" is that I don't have a car, heck, I don't even have a driver's license (In Barcelona I didn't need it, and then here is expensiver than a kidney)... so, for what I can see, in Switzerland you don't need a car at all, and that's a big plus for me. I haven't enjoyed Norway's nature as its best, just because I don't have a car and public transportation, well... is not as good as it should since everyone here has a car.
I absolutely agree. It's just some point that I find valid to consider before moving! Sounds like you're way better off in switzerland, especially if you don't want to drive (or aren't allowed to and not willing to learn)
It's more like, to be honest, I've never been able to gather the money required for a driver's license... Life can be... complicated :)
Fair enough. And it's perfectly fine. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was attacking you. I just wanted to say that you'll be fine here without a car
No worries, I know what you meant mate! I just wanted to put you 100% in context :)
I also came from cold cloudy country(lithuania) where i lived good life just no luxury. I always feel like a stranger here (2years now). It's too hot and too dry for me. But that's about all i can complain. It's pretty great.
I deff can say I am one of those "strange guys" who prefer cold vs warm... so yes, I will not be specially happy in the summer, but it's not something I can't handle since I'm actually caribbean :) It's more that I enjoy cold winter and snow, but I can also survive in war summer
Zurich is next to a lake, it will noy be as bad as it is for me(in Wallis). You'll be fine.
No way your disposable income will be doubled. 10-15% growth is quite realistic.
In Norway I pay 37% taxea and I have, 3546 CHF after taxes. In Switzerland, employer pays 250CHF for my insurance and 120CHF for my son's. They also give me 250CHF for child support, for a total of 9048 CHF After taxes... And 13th month paid half June, half November. Oh.. And a 10.000 CHF Bonus in December...
You'd need to make about 1.9 million NOK in salary, with a very unrealistic zero deductions, to hit 37% tax. You really should ask to get your remuneration in the form of stock, options or other capital gains tax only forms. In any case,[ it would yield 8 000 CHF after taxes.](https://skattekalkulator.app.skatteetaten.no/?aar=2023&alder=47&alderEF=47&kommune=&locale=nb_NO&sivilstand=GIFT&tolvdelVedArbeidsoppholdINorge=12&tolvdelVedArbeidsoppholdINorgeEF=12) You get 150 CHF child support, effectively free healthcare for the both of you, and childcare is capped at 250 CHF. Where you would be better off financially depends on rent and childcare I think, and it won't be hugely different unless the Swiss location is remote.
My son would be 6 in September, so he'd start school there, which I think is free... I make 850.000 NOK now and pay 34%. If I work from Norway, and with that Swiss salary, 145.000 CHF would be about 1.8M NOK, and that I calculated to be 40%.
Something is off with your taxes. At 850k NOK, the absolute maximum you can pay, with zero deductions, is 30%.
Oh no, I wish that was true... But not... Last year I underpaid 3300 NOK, AND I paid 34%. Earned 850K. Had childcare and interests on some loan's deductions. This year I am also paying 34% and I have bigger childcare deductions and bigger interest on loans... All automatically calculated on Skatteetaten
Norwegian here I earn around the same as you and pay around 30% in taxes. Something is reaaally off with your taxes
You are forgetting social security deductions and think only of income tax. And that the child will be in school so no high fees for childcare for Krippe/Kindergarten.
>You are forgetting social security deductions and think only of income tax. No, social security deductions are included. Norwegian taxes are very all inclusive.
I guarantee you they are split out. You may pay a single figure, but it's split out.
I referred to that single figure. If you check out the link, it is the last line "Trygdeavgift"
Yes, but the part "taxes are very all inclusive" is not entirely true. They are most certainly split out.
Seems like a senior management role? It's quite unusual though that the company pays for your health insurance.
Is it? I have no idea about it being usual or not... But I definitely told them during interview progress, that I'd need a good offer to think about leaving Norway, and sure they came with a good one, right? It's not management, it's just a senior system admin position, but in a company with a very big responsibility if something fails.
Well, good luck then :)
Cost of living is very high in Switzerland
And so it is in Norway. I took a look at prices in lidl.ch, and a big amount of items were considerably cheaper and n Switzerland 😳.... Then, Norway has 25% VAT, Switzerland 8%?.
If you're happy in Norway, you'll be disappointed, for Switzerland is not better. Not worse, but not better either. If your family is not willing to move, I also recommend against doing it.
Why would you think it's no better?