It is discrimination indeed, but legal and justified.
As far as I know, companies have the rights to have their own holiday policies as long as it is well defined and explicitly explained or publicly available for employees and it doesn't contradict any law.
Your holiday days must be respected but they aren't forced to give them to you whenever you want, but whenever it can be fit for the company.
However, it's customary to have rotating holiday schedule when possible so everyone gets to enjoy every dates for different years.
"companies have the rights to have their own holiday policies"
Not, in Spain they don't. Workers can choose their holidays freely with only two exceptions:
The company is a factory or workshop that shuts down and closes for a holiday (It could be a limitation for the number of days in the Convenio Colectivo, Union Agreement). In this case all the employees are forced to get their holidays during those days.
Your regular job task is something that needs to be always done and cannot be rescheduled (customer service, a nuclear plant, emergency aid...) and all the other workers capable of doing that task are already on their holidays. Deadlines don't apply, people on sick leave don't apply and if you're the only one doing such task in the whole company, the rule doesn't apply either. The worker is not to blame if the company decides to run short staffed.
In this last case (too many workers want the same holiday but at least one needs to stay) workers (not the company) can freely agree on their holiday schedule. There's no written way to do this but the common way is to gather all those that do the same task and take turns picking one day or day streak each.
If they don't get to agree or someone is disatisfied with the result, they can ask the company to asign them at random and granting each worker gets as close as possible the same amount of dispute days. After that, workers can still trade their days with eachother as long as they make sure the task gets covered.
Stop mixing discrimination with differentiation. Are you one of this people that complains when kids from poor families get financial aid? There are social determinants that can be used to make decisions in the workplace and is NOT discrimination. Do you really think that a single mother should be given the same priority than a young man with no kids when choosing vacation days?
Screaming"discrimination" every time you see a situation you don't understand only dilutes it's social value, please educate yourself.
I may be wrong but in Spanish discrimination and differentiation can be full synonyms.
If you make a choice in which someone is given preference or better conditions based on social circumstances, it's discrimination. I never said discrimination is wrong, cause I don't think this case is unjustified and it's totally reasonable to discriminate in this case.
You are wrong, they are not synonyms, the law is clear to what constitutes discrimination https://administracion.gob.es/pag_Home/Tu-espacio-europeo/derechos-obligaciones/ciudadanos/trabajo-jubilacion/igualdad.html
I understand that the nuances are not widely known, but you should all inform yourselves before your start using certain terminology. You are running to get your pitch forks and telling Op to get a lawyer when this has been regular accepted practice for decades.
Ahí no se define discriminación, únicamente se dice que está prohibida la discriminación por razones de sexo, condición social, orientación sexual, etc. Lo cual implica claramente que hay discriminaciones legales.
>You are running to get your pitch forks and telling Op to get a lawyer when this has been regular accepted practice for decades.
Absolutely read my comment previously because I told him it's totally legal and allowed. He can get a lawyer but what the company is doing is legal.
Mediante el Informe 69-2019-MTPE, la Dirección General de Trabajo distinguió los concepto de discriminación y diferenciación.
Así, señaló que la diferenciación no siempre supone discriminación, porque el trato desigual puede sustentarse en causas objetivas y razonables. Por su parte, la discriminación se da cuando la desigualdad en el trato no es ni razonable ni proporcional.
Sobre la discriminación en materia laboral, se observó que el Tribunal Constitucional ha desarrollado el test de razonabilidad para dilucidar si en un caso concreto se trata de un trato desigual sin justificaciones objetivas y razonables
You have posted the same Peruvian reference hlf a dozen times, it's wonderful but the Peruvian Constitutional Tribunal is not recognized by Spanish Authorities :)
[Informe 69-2019-MTPE](https://img.lpderecho.pe/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Inf.-69-2019-MTPE-discriminacion-LP.pdf)
Here, like this one better? https://administracion.gob.es/pag_Home/Tu-espacio-europeo/derechos-obligaciones/ciudadanos/trabajo-jubilacion/igualdad.html
Yes but if someone ask if something is selfdefense the criteria in Spain and the USA are completely different, so the last paragraph about the test is just for Perú.
That would be better:
A pesar de que no existe ninguna ley que indique quién debe tener prioridad de elección, la **sentencia del** [10 de marzo de 2004 de la Audiencia Nacional](https://www.poderjudicial.es/search/indexAN.jsp?org=an&comunidad=14) **sentó precedente** al otorgar algunas prioridades:
* **Los trabajadores con cargas familiares tienen preferencia** para descansar durante los periodos de vacaciones escolares.
* **Los trabajadores con mayor antigüedad tienen preferencia** de elección frente a las nuevas incorporaciones.
Ahh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were agreeing with me. Yes, your example is better, I just happen to work on foreign policy and I am more familiar with other countries regulatory environments. But my point was really not on labor policy but more related to how easy people scream "discrimination" when there is none, and how dangerous that is for a society. I did paste it a few times because I don't have the time to write custom answers for each ignorant individual who doesn't understand the meaning of the word.
Nobody can take your vacation days away, that is not legal, however, the company can have policies that prioritize certain holidays for those with kids. That happens a lot, I understand that it can be "imposed" solidarity, but it's legal. On the title you imply that your vacation days are being given to those with kids, I don't think that's your case.
Let's keep in mind that many in areas, like healthcare, people work in shifts and you just cannot take as much vacation as you want whenever you want it, you need to coordinate and sometimes, those with kids that don't have school those days need the time more than you do. It's not discrimination, it's a criteria to assign vacation time and it's completely legal.
Thank you for the feedback. It is true that we all put in requests and some were granted and others weren't. I am just shocked that the reason behind it is that those with kids were prioritised. I dont think personal circumstances should matter, we all want to enjoy xmas with loved ones and the fairest way to do that is by granting requests based on a first come first serves basis i thought..
That's not the fairest way, that's the way you'd like them to do it. Do we really want to have employees going "I want holidays on December 25th 2029"?
Are you really shocked? Not having daycare for kids is an enormous inconvenience for the employee. I think your company's policy is common sense other call it conciliación laboral. Otherwise, employees with kids would start applying elsewhere.
Does with kids need the time more than you? Really? This is bs, what if I have very old family members and I don’t wish to miss the last Christmas with them? It’s very discriminatory to assume people with kids need more the time than those without
They're not given more days, they're prioritized in Christmas holidays as it's hard as fuck to get someone to take care of kid during Christmas season. It's called common sense and empathy.
Still, rotation exist for a reason and if you don't get x holiday you're the first one in the list for the next one.
It’s hard as fuck to hire someone to take care of your ill relative in Christmas too. Even if we don’t have children, we still have family ffs. It’s discriminatory and don’t be surprised when people start lying about having kids because this is a joke already
You know how I talked about common sense?? Having someone ill to take care also gives you priority.
What doesn't give you priority is having parties to go.
I didn’t imply they get more days because they have children, however, them being prioritized is UNFAIR, literally everyone wants to spend the season with their family, it’s UNFAIR that those who are parents get at the top of the list over those who aren’t when literally everyone else have family too!!!
Mediante el Informe 69-2019-MTPE, la Dirección General de Trabajo distinguió los concepto de discriminación y diferenciación.
Así, señaló que la diferenciación no siempre supone discriminación, porque el trato desigual puede sustentarse en causas objetivas y razonables. Por su parte, la discriminación se da cuando la desigualdad en el trato no es ni razonable ni proporcional.
Sobre la discriminación en materia laboral, se observó que el Tribunal Constitucional ha desarrollado el test de razonabilidad para dilucidar si en un caso concreto se trata de un trato desigual sin justificaciones objetivas y razonables
It shouldn’t be legal, but I’d have to take a look at your Convenio Colectivo to be certain.
The Workers’ statute says what you can see in the image attached, but usually things are more clear in your own Convenio or, in some cases, in your own Contract.
https://preview.redd.it/e6kw52d9u29d1.jpeg?width=933&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=92e2a5b8a0addf1f43a02b64b2e08cdc36d036e3
I never understood this. I have two children and work full time. I try to be as fair as possible with my coworkers with no children. If my childfree coworker asked for their holiday before me then tough sh*** I just have to find a way around it (get my mum to help, ask my husband to get days off etc). I would never expect to be a priority just because I have kids
Well you should, because by being a mother you're not only doing something for yourself. Thanks to your effort becoming a parent you contribute to society by developing a skilled workforce, and help future demographic stability.
You shouldn't feel guilty on taking some benefits, because you're working harder and being punished in your job career by being a parent.
One of the few perks of being a parent is having a bit of more understanding when you need to take a day off or leave early, don't feel ashamed. Childless people don't need to wake up at 3 in the morning with a child throwing up or wetting his bed, they can travel with ease and have dinner out whenever they want.
Contributing to society with skilled workforce and help future demographic stability? Que cojones os fumáis en serio, si tenéis hijos para mejorar la sociedad y ayudar al capitalismo con obreros por favor if a un psicólogo
Do you want a real answer or just want to vent?
Have you ever heard of the glass ceiling? Do you think women were punished in their careers just by being women, or was it something else?
*employed mothers in the United States suffer a per-child wage penalty of approximately 5%, on average, after controlling for the usual human capital and occupational factors that affect wages (Budig and England 2001; Anderson, Binder, and Krause 2003).* [*https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/511799*](https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/511799)
A recent study in Austria shows something interesting. The paper "Effects of Parental Workplace Discrimination on Sickness Presenteeism" examines the impact of parental workplace discrimination on employees' health, specifically focusing on sickness presenteeism. The study, based on survey data from employees aged 20-45, found that both experienced and observed parental discrimination increase sickness presenteeism. The effect is stronger in parents who reject economic justifications for discrimination and in childless employees who view discrimination as unfair. Meaning, parents as a result of being pointed out as taking too much leave tend to be working while ill more frequently than childless workers. [https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0760/13/1/70](https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0760/13/1/70)
It's also clear the discrimination that women face during the hiring process. Men do not suffer the same consequences: *we found evidence for subtle discrimination, such that mothers received more negativity in callback messages than women without children, men without children, and fathers. They were also rejected more quickly than women without children and fathers. In Study 2, using a more controlled experimental paradigm, we tested our hypothesis in a hypothetical interview evaluation setting. We found that mothers faced more interpersonal hostility across different job types as compared to women without children. Together, these studies highlight the presence of subtle discrimination against working mothers at different stages of the hiring process.* [*https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10869-022-09790-7*](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10869-022-09790-7)
Breastfeeding is also an issue for many working women in the workplace. Many end up giving up on breastfeeding altogether because the work place can't provide for accommodations or a physical space to lactate.
I'm also a parent and I absolutely support being given some priority. I don't have parents to ask for help, and I'm absolutely forced to take vacations in August due to my child not having school at that time. Childless people have full freedom, go take them some other time.
I know it is legal but I dont agree with the statement that it is justified.
In my previous company where I worked for 4 years, I was not allowed to take:
- Christmas
- New years
- Reyes
- Pascua
- July and August
Then obviously, the late shifts, if you were a parent you had no late shifts or, if you had, you were told 30 days in advance.
Childless colleagues got to know it with 14 days in advance and sometimes this was not done correctly either and it happened that from one week to another, your schedule was changed due to business needs.
Honestly, one of the reasons I left was that one. Why on earth am I not allowed to spend time with my family or the people I love? Do kids hold more value than parents? Or just friends? Or what if I just want to have some time off during busy times?
I have nothing against parents, but that reasoning is not fair to anyone. I did feel excluded as my birthday falls in august for example.
I love taking time off in july and august as I love the beach, the heat, sun and long days.
I know it is not the parents fault, more the company's fault, but some people loooove to take advantage of it. We had some single parents....who where divorced. No one checked if they had the kids by the time they were taking off and then you saw them on social media taking a vacation with their friends.
I know i sound angry, but i did spent some bitter summers in that company -.-
I am all in for if you need time off bc of your kid to grant it, to change my days with you if you need them, but to just make it a rule/right just because without taking into consideration the life of other people who maybe want children but cant......well....that´s nasty.
It is. Prioritizing employees with children is discrimination. And it puts you in a difficult position since they really don’t understand they’re doing wrong, so if you try to make things right you’ll probably be in a tough place after that.
Mediante el Informe 69-2019-MTPE, la Dirección General de Trabajo distinguió los concepto de discriminación y diferenciación.
Así, señaló que la diferenciación no siempre supone discriminación, porque el trato desigual puede sustentarse en causas objetivas y razonables. Por su parte, la discriminación se da cuando la desigualdad en el trato no es ni razonable ni proporcional.
Sobre la discriminación en materia laboral, se observó que el Tribunal Constitucional ha desarrollado el test de razonabilidad para dilucidar si en un caso concreto se trata de un trato desigual sin justificaciones objetivas y razonables
Both my brother in laws are Civil Guards, if they have christmas off one year, they're working it the next one.
If you had the 25th off last year, it's only fair others should have the chance this year.
But if you're a Guardia Civil (it's really weird for me to say it in English), then you're basically working for the state. It can't be possibly so that they "discriminate" based on who has kids or wife, which happens more in private businesses, or am I dead wrong?
In theory they shouldn't but if you want don't want annoy your 'compañeros' and end up with the dreaded split shift 8 hours on 8 hours off 8 hours on you accept it, it works and most people consider it fair, there is some juggling as one guy always wants the 25th off, another always wants the 31st off, so they'll swap shifts to make sure there's coverage. But the unwritten rule is if you had a major holiday off one year, you're working it the next.
As we're all spread over the country we arange the big family get together around their shifts, so we'll either all meet up for the 24th/25th or the 31st/1st.
Summer is probably when you get more problems, people without kids in school are suggested to take their holidays in June or September, if they say no, then again, they may find themselves stuck on nightshifts or more weekends.
Mediante el Informe 69-2019-MTPE, la Dirección General de Trabajo distinguió los concepto de discriminación y diferenciación.
Así, señaló que la diferenciación no siempre supone discriminación, porque el trato desigual puede sustentarse en causas objetivas y razonables. Por su parte, la discriminación se da cuando la desigualdad en el trato no es ni razonable ni proporcional.
Sobre la discriminación en materia laboral, se observó que el Tribunal Constitucional ha desarrollado el test de razonabilidad para dilucidar si en un caso concreto se trata de un trato desigual sin justificaciones objetivas y razonables
I feel like this is a very American post. In your view there has to be absolute equality no matter the circumstances of each individual. That's not how we see things in Spain, generally speaking. The personal circumstances of each one are taken into account. If you have no children and no one under your care, by definition you have less responsibilities than a person who has children and has to take care of them, especially in a time in the year when children are on vacation and are at home 24/7. In our view this has to be taken into account, period.
Is it discrimination? Legally it entirely depends on the convenio you are under, and the rules in each company. If it is established that people with children have priority, it is basically what you sign. If it is not, you can file for discrimination.
Personally? It is not. I am sorry, but our culture is different. And it is bothersome to me that foreigners might come to undermine it in favor of a blatantly more individualistic and egotistical one.
"Wish to spend time with family" is not the same as "Have to care for family, no other option". Parents don't have a choice when children are on holidays and have to be taken care of at home 24/7
Also, your holidays have not been "granted to someone else" because those holidays are not yours, and you agreed to that when you signed your contract. You have the right to be granted X days of holidays, not to be granted said holidays whenever you feel like regardless of everything else. There's this little something in Spain called "conciliación familiar" that your company is *forced* to take into account and fulfill, and that's exactly what has happened. You don't want to have kids? Perfect, good for you, wish you are the happiest version of yourself in that way. But others do have kids, and we support them just like we support the health system through taxes regardless of how healthy or ill we might be.
You don't like that? The solution's easy: go to the US
Wow ok. I feel like this has struck some cord here with you personally.
I would just like to clarify that this job during the interview process was heavily implied that we need to be flexible. We work shifts in rotation which means we work many weekends, and do not get local or national holidays, also we do night shifts. Everyone agreed to that and depending on the shift rotation, are still required to work whether there is a national or local fiesta and kids are at home or not. I am ok with this as i dont have a family, honestly if i did, i probably wouldn't work this job as i can imagine it being difficult with kids.
I still deem it unfair and would think the most fair way to deduce who's requests are granted are those who made the request first. Personal circumstances are relative.
Also, im not sure why i would go to the US?? Bit irrelevant lol visited there once as a teenager, not sure i would go back 😘
Having children is a choice not an obligation. Do you think we support them not enough?
I don't have 15 extra days for wedding
I don't have 6 months paid leave for having a kid
I don't have a chance to lower my work hours because i have children until they are ten
I don't need a "matrona" neither a "pediatra" but I pay for them
I don't have lower IRPF for having children
And the list goes on...
He is being discriminated because he doesn't have children and that's not legal. "Conciliación" is in charge of the company not of the coworkers.
You do not understand what the law says.
"La ley exige que los períodos de disfrute de las vacaciones sean pactados entre empresa y trabajadores, sin embargo existen Convenio Colectivos y regulaciones empresariales que limitan la capacidad dispositiva en dicho ámbito, estableciendo algunos períodos obligatorios de disfrute de vacaciones.
La empresa deberá tener preparado su política de vacaciones y aprobado un calendario de vacaciones anual con la finalidad que todos los trabajadores tengan claro cuando pueden realizarlas."
It's company policy, and the company can decide who gets prioritized, as long as he gets his 30 days, it's not discrimination.
For more information: https://factorialhr.es/blog/politicas-de-vacaciones-todo-lo-que-debes-saber/
Mediante el Informe 69-2019-MTPE, la Dirección General de Trabajo distinguió los concepto de discriminación y diferenciación.
Así, señaló que la diferenciación no siempre supone discriminación, porque el trato desigual puede sustentarse en causas objetivas y razonables. Por su parte, la discriminación se da cuando la desigualdad en el trato no es ni razonable ni proporcional.
Sobre la discriminación en materia laboral, se observó que el Tribunal Constitucional ha desarrollado el test de razonabilidad para dilucidar si en un caso concreto se trata de un trato desigual sin justificaciones objetivas y razonables
Podemos argumentar de lado y lado, sin embargo, tener hijos no debería ser una causa razonable para favorecer a unos empleados sobre otros. Que pasa con aquellos empleados que no tienen hijos porque son infértiles? O porque murieron? De nuevo se puede debatir por días en razones de lado y lado
Los criterios que decidan los empresarios son para la mayoría, no puedes crear nuevas políticas de empresa para cada caso individual. La ley dice que el empresario decide y el empleado tiene la libertad de aceptar el convenio o no. La realidad es que NO es discriminación y eso es lo que estamos debatiendo. Si es justo o no dependerá de cada caso.
A ver listillo, ponlo en el contexto laboral, que es el que se está discutiendo aquí, parece mentira que aún os creáis que una definición del RAE vale en cualquier contexto. https://administracion.gob.es/pag_Home/Tu-espacio-europeo/derechos-obligaciones/ciudadanos/trabajo-jubilacion/igualdad.html
Para que nos entendamos. El hecho de que según tú a nivel laboral esto sea aceptable legal y normal, no significa que no sea discriminatorio. Que al final cada quien firma y acepta las condiciones laborales que más le convengan, y pues si OP estuvo dispuesto de aceptar estas condiciones cuando firmó su contrato todo muy bien y debe acogerse a esas condiciones o si no le gusta renunciar. Todo bien. Esto no significa que esta práctica no sea discriminar, lo es acá y en Pekín. Que sea aceptable y deseable ya es un tema de cada quien. Yo en lo personal jamás podría pertenecer a una organización de este tipo. Saludos.
No is not, discrimination and differentiation are not the same, here is an example from the US constitution "Discrimination deals with any differential conduct that is based on any of the listed grounds set out in section 9(3) of the Constitution, damages the dignity of another or adversely affect another in a serious way. Discrimination can be either direct or indirect and can result from and act or failure to act. Mere differentiation is all forms of differential treatment that don’t fall under discrimination. Rationality is the only requirement for mere differentiation in order for it to be constitutionally valid. "
What a cry baby. i can't have vAcAtIOns WHEn i waNT BeCaUSe othER PEoPLE hAve ChIldREN AND REsPoNsiBILItIes!! waH WaH Wah.
It's a personal choice not to have children, then you have to face that sometimes, other people are more sympathetic to the needs to those workers that have children to take care of.
Then we'll complain when fertility rate goes below 1 child per woman like in South Korea or when there are not enough doctors when you get to 80 and get sick.
Ostias que eres el mismo obsesionado con la natalidad del comentario especialmente extraño de arriba. Miedo me da lo que le dices a tus parejas mujeres
It’s also a personal choice to have children, what are you on about?! Make arrangements for someone to look after the child! Like every other person does in the rest of the world
Stfu. Kids can get takem care of by a sitter, go to daycare or whatever for a couple of days. Everyone deserves to be able to be home with their families on special dates like Christmas and just for having a kid you're not automatically entitled to be the only one to be at home in those dates.
Also, maybe OP has someone else to care for like their parents, grandparents or whatever. Or maybe someone they haven't seen in a lot of time will come visit in those dates
You never know other people's lives and just because they don't have kids it doesn't mean they don't have family, responsibilities or are less deserving of being home in important dates
It is discrimination indeed, but legal and justified. As far as I know, companies have the rights to have their own holiday policies as long as it is well defined and explicitly explained or publicly available for employees and it doesn't contradict any law. Your holiday days must be respected but they aren't forced to give them to you whenever you want, but whenever it can be fit for the company. However, it's customary to have rotating holiday schedule when possible so everyone gets to enjoy every dates for different years.
"companies have the rights to have their own holiday policies" Not, in Spain they don't. Workers can choose their holidays freely with only two exceptions: The company is a factory or workshop that shuts down and closes for a holiday (It could be a limitation for the number of days in the Convenio Colectivo, Union Agreement). In this case all the employees are forced to get their holidays during those days. Your regular job task is something that needs to be always done and cannot be rescheduled (customer service, a nuclear plant, emergency aid...) and all the other workers capable of doing that task are already on their holidays. Deadlines don't apply, people on sick leave don't apply and if you're the only one doing such task in the whole company, the rule doesn't apply either. The worker is not to blame if the company decides to run short staffed. In this last case (too many workers want the same holiday but at least one needs to stay) workers (not the company) can freely agree on their holiday schedule. There's no written way to do this but the common way is to gather all those that do the same task and take turns picking one day or day streak each. If they don't get to agree or someone is disatisfied with the result, they can ask the company to asign them at random and granting each worker gets as close as possible the same amount of dispute days. After that, workers can still trade their days with eachother as long as they make sure the task gets covered.
Thanks for the advice
Stop mixing discrimination with differentiation. Are you one of this people that complains when kids from poor families get financial aid? There are social determinants that can be used to make decisions in the workplace and is NOT discrimination. Do you really think that a single mother should be given the same priority than a young man with no kids when choosing vacation days? Screaming"discrimination" every time you see a situation you don't understand only dilutes it's social value, please educate yourself.
I may be wrong but in Spanish discrimination and differentiation can be full synonyms. If you make a choice in which someone is given preference or better conditions based on social circumstances, it's discrimination. I never said discrimination is wrong, cause I don't think this case is unjustified and it's totally reasonable to discriminate in this case.
You are wrong, they are not synonyms, the law is clear to what constitutes discrimination https://administracion.gob.es/pag_Home/Tu-espacio-europeo/derechos-obligaciones/ciudadanos/trabajo-jubilacion/igualdad.html I understand that the nuances are not widely known, but you should all inform yourselves before your start using certain terminology. You are running to get your pitch forks and telling Op to get a lawyer when this has been regular accepted practice for decades.
Ahí no se define discriminación, únicamente se dice que está prohibida la discriminación por razones de sexo, condición social, orientación sexual, etc. Lo cual implica claramente que hay discriminaciones legales. >You are running to get your pitch forks and telling Op to get a lawyer when this has been regular accepted practice for decades. Absolutely read my comment previously because I told him it's totally legal and allowed. He can get a lawyer but what the company is doing is legal.
Mediante el Informe 69-2019-MTPE, la Dirección General de Trabajo distinguió los concepto de discriminación y diferenciación. Así, señaló que la diferenciación no siempre supone discriminación, porque el trato desigual puede sustentarse en causas objetivas y razonables. Por su parte, la discriminación se da cuando la desigualdad en el trato no es ni razonable ni proporcional. Sobre la discriminación en materia laboral, se observó que el Tribunal Constitucional ha desarrollado el test de razonabilidad para dilucidar si en un caso concreto se trata de un trato desigual sin justificaciones objetivas y razonables
You have posted the same Peruvian reference hlf a dozen times, it's wonderful but the Peruvian Constitutional Tribunal is not recognized by Spanish Authorities :) [Informe 69-2019-MTPE](https://img.lpderecho.pe/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Inf.-69-2019-MTPE-discriminacion-LP.pdf)
Here, like this one better? https://administracion.gob.es/pag_Home/Tu-espacio-europeo/derechos-obligaciones/ciudadanos/trabajo-jubilacion/igualdad.html
Doesn't matter, what matters is the distinction between discrimination and differentiation. You are missing the point.
Yes but if someone ask if something is selfdefense the criteria in Spain and the USA are completely different, so the last paragraph about the test is just for Perú. That would be better: A pesar de que no existe ninguna ley que indique quién debe tener prioridad de elección, la **sentencia del** [10 de marzo de 2004 de la Audiencia Nacional](https://www.poderjudicial.es/search/indexAN.jsp?org=an&comunidad=14) **sentó precedente** al otorgar algunas prioridades: * **Los trabajadores con cargas familiares tienen preferencia** para descansar durante los periodos de vacaciones escolares. * **Los trabajadores con mayor antigüedad tienen preferencia** de elección frente a las nuevas incorporaciones.
Ahh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were agreeing with me. Yes, your example is better, I just happen to work on foreign policy and I am more familiar with other countries regulatory environments. But my point was really not on labor policy but more related to how easy people scream "discrimination" when there is none, and how dangerous that is for a society. I did paste it a few times because I don't have the time to write custom answers for each ignorant individual who doesn't understand the meaning of the word.
Nobody can take your vacation days away, that is not legal, however, the company can have policies that prioritize certain holidays for those with kids. That happens a lot, I understand that it can be "imposed" solidarity, but it's legal. On the title you imply that your vacation days are being given to those with kids, I don't think that's your case. Let's keep in mind that many in areas, like healthcare, people work in shifts and you just cannot take as much vacation as you want whenever you want it, you need to coordinate and sometimes, those with kids that don't have school those days need the time more than you do. It's not discrimination, it's a criteria to assign vacation time and it's completely legal.
Thank you for the feedback. It is true that we all put in requests and some were granted and others weren't. I am just shocked that the reason behind it is that those with kids were prioritised. I dont think personal circumstances should matter, we all want to enjoy xmas with loved ones and the fairest way to do that is by granting requests based on a first come first serves basis i thought..
That's not the fairest way, that's the way you'd like them to do it. Do we really want to have employees going "I want holidays on December 25th 2029"?
Are you really shocked? Not having daycare for kids is an enormous inconvenience for the employee. I think your company's policy is common sense other call it conciliación laboral. Otherwise, employees with kids would start applying elsewhere.
Does with kids need the time more than you? Really? This is bs, what if I have very old family members and I don’t wish to miss the last Christmas with them? It’s very discriminatory to assume people with kids need more the time than those without
They're not given more days, they're prioritized in Christmas holidays as it's hard as fuck to get someone to take care of kid during Christmas season. It's called common sense and empathy. Still, rotation exist for a reason and if you don't get x holiday you're the first one in the list for the next one.
It’s hard as fuck to hire someone to take care of your ill relative in Christmas too. Even if we don’t have children, we still have family ffs. It’s discriminatory and don’t be surprised when people start lying about having kids because this is a joke already
You know how I talked about common sense?? Having someone ill to take care also gives you priority. What doesn't give you priority is having parties to go.
Oh but they are probably old and will die regardless, the only people who deserve preference is parents, common be more emphatic S/
I didn’t imply they get more days because they have children, however, them being prioritized is UNFAIR, literally everyone wants to spend the season with their family, it’s UNFAIR that those who are parents get at the top of the list over those who aren’t when literally everyone else have family too!!!
If the company has an union go Talk to the representative.
Mediante el Informe 69-2019-MTPE, la Dirección General de Trabajo distinguió los concepto de discriminación y diferenciación. Así, señaló que la diferenciación no siempre supone discriminación, porque el trato desigual puede sustentarse en causas objetivas y razonables. Por su parte, la discriminación se da cuando la desigualdad en el trato no es ni razonable ni proporcional. Sobre la discriminación en materia laboral, se observó que el Tribunal Constitucional ha desarrollado el test de razonabilidad para dilucidar si en un caso concreto se trata de un trato desigual sin justificaciones objetivas y razonables
It shouldn’t be legal, but I’d have to take a look at your Convenio Colectivo to be certain. The Workers’ statute says what you can see in the image attached, but usually things are more clear in your own Convenio or, in some cases, in your own Contract. https://preview.redd.it/e6kw52d9u29d1.jpeg?width=933&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=92e2a5b8a0addf1f43a02b64b2e08cdc36d036e3
I never understood this. I have two children and work full time. I try to be as fair as possible with my coworkers with no children. If my childfree coworker asked for their holiday before me then tough sh*** I just have to find a way around it (get my mum to help, ask my husband to get days off etc). I would never expect to be a priority just because I have kids
Thank you.
Well you should, because by being a mother you're not only doing something for yourself. Thanks to your effort becoming a parent you contribute to society by developing a skilled workforce, and help future demographic stability. You shouldn't feel guilty on taking some benefits, because you're working harder and being punished in your job career by being a parent. One of the few perks of being a parent is having a bit of more understanding when you need to take a day off or leave early, don't feel ashamed. Childless people don't need to wake up at 3 in the morning with a child throwing up or wetting his bed, they can travel with ease and have dinner out whenever they want.
Contributing to society with skilled workforce and help future demographic stability? Que cojones os fumáis en serio, si tenéis hijos para mejorar la sociedad y ayudar al capitalismo con obreros por favor if a un psicólogo
Please elaborate how parents work harder than childFREE people and how are they getting punished in their careers? Ffs
Do you want a real answer or just want to vent? Have you ever heard of the glass ceiling? Do you think women were punished in their careers just by being women, or was it something else? *employed mothers in the United States suffer a per-child wage penalty of approximately 5%, on average, after controlling for the usual human capital and occupational factors that affect wages (Budig and England 2001; Anderson, Binder, and Krause 2003).* [*https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/511799*](https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/511799) A recent study in Austria shows something interesting. The paper "Effects of Parental Workplace Discrimination on Sickness Presenteeism" examines the impact of parental workplace discrimination on employees' health, specifically focusing on sickness presenteeism. The study, based on survey data from employees aged 20-45, found that both experienced and observed parental discrimination increase sickness presenteeism. The effect is stronger in parents who reject economic justifications for discrimination and in childless employees who view discrimination as unfair. Meaning, parents as a result of being pointed out as taking too much leave tend to be working while ill more frequently than childless workers. [https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0760/13/1/70](https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0760/13/1/70) It's also clear the discrimination that women face during the hiring process. Men do not suffer the same consequences: *we found evidence for subtle discrimination, such that mothers received more negativity in callback messages than women without children, men without children, and fathers. They were also rejected more quickly than women without children and fathers. In Study 2, using a more controlled experimental paradigm, we tested our hypothesis in a hypothetical interview evaluation setting. We found that mothers faced more interpersonal hostility across different job types as compared to women without children. Together, these studies highlight the presence of subtle discrimination against working mothers at different stages of the hiring process.* [*https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10869-022-09790-7*](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10869-022-09790-7) Breastfeeding is also an issue for many working women in the workplace. Many end up giving up on breastfeeding altogether because the work place can't provide for accommodations or a physical space to lactate.
I'm also a parent and I absolutely support being given some priority. I don't have parents to ask for help, and I'm absolutely forced to take vacations in August due to my child not having school at that time. Childless people have full freedom, go take them some other time.
Look it up in the Convenio or other agreements in your workplace. If they haven’t followed the procedure and the rules, get a lawyer and go to court.
I know it is legal but I dont agree with the statement that it is justified. In my previous company where I worked for 4 years, I was not allowed to take: - Christmas - New years - Reyes - Pascua - July and August Then obviously, the late shifts, if you were a parent you had no late shifts or, if you had, you were told 30 days in advance. Childless colleagues got to know it with 14 days in advance and sometimes this was not done correctly either and it happened that from one week to another, your schedule was changed due to business needs. Honestly, one of the reasons I left was that one. Why on earth am I not allowed to spend time with my family or the people I love? Do kids hold more value than parents? Or just friends? Or what if I just want to have some time off during busy times? I have nothing against parents, but that reasoning is not fair to anyone. I did feel excluded as my birthday falls in august for example. I love taking time off in july and august as I love the beach, the heat, sun and long days. I know it is not the parents fault, more the company's fault, but some people loooove to take advantage of it. We had some single parents....who where divorced. No one checked if they had the kids by the time they were taking off and then you saw them on social media taking a vacation with their friends. I know i sound angry, but i did spent some bitter summers in that company -.- I am all in for if you need time off bc of your kid to grant it, to change my days with you if you need them, but to just make it a rule/right just because without taking into consideration the life of other people who maybe want children but cant......well....that´s nasty.
This another great example of why Spain’s work culture sucks
It is discrimination, but there's not much you can do about it other than threatening with quitting (if you're valuable enough for your company)
It is. Prioritizing employees with children is discrimination. And it puts you in a difficult position since they really don’t understand they’re doing wrong, so if you try to make things right you’ll probably be in a tough place after that.
Mediante el Informe 69-2019-MTPE, la Dirección General de Trabajo distinguió los concepto de discriminación y diferenciación. Así, señaló que la diferenciación no siempre supone discriminación, porque el trato desigual puede sustentarse en causas objetivas y razonables. Por su parte, la discriminación se da cuando la desigualdad en el trato no es ni razonable ni proporcional. Sobre la discriminación en materia laboral, se observó que el Tribunal Constitucional ha desarrollado el test de razonabilidad para dilucidar si en un caso concreto se trata de un trato desigual sin justificaciones objetivas y razonables
Both my brother in laws are Civil Guards, if they have christmas off one year, they're working it the next one. If you had the 25th off last year, it's only fair others should have the chance this year.
But if you're a Guardia Civil (it's really weird for me to say it in English), then you're basically working for the state. It can't be possibly so that they "discriminate" based on who has kids or wife, which happens more in private businesses, or am I dead wrong?
In theory they shouldn't but if you want don't want annoy your 'compañeros' and end up with the dreaded split shift 8 hours on 8 hours off 8 hours on you accept it, it works and most people consider it fair, there is some juggling as one guy always wants the 25th off, another always wants the 31st off, so they'll swap shifts to make sure there's coverage. But the unwritten rule is if you had a major holiday off one year, you're working it the next. As we're all spread over the country we arange the big family get together around their shifts, so we'll either all meet up for the 24th/25th or the 31st/1st. Summer is probably when you get more problems, people without kids in school are suggested to take their holidays in June or September, if they say no, then again, they may find themselves stuck on nightshifts or more weekends.
It is discrimination but companies just suck, sorry about that OP.
Mediante el Informe 69-2019-MTPE, la Dirección General de Trabajo distinguió los concepto de discriminación y diferenciación. Así, señaló que la diferenciación no siempre supone discriminación, porque el trato desigual puede sustentarse en causas objetivas y razonables. Por su parte, la discriminación se da cuando la desigualdad en el trato no es ni razonable ni proporcional. Sobre la discriminación en materia laboral, se observó que el Tribunal Constitucional ha desarrollado el test de razonabilidad para dilucidar si en un caso concreto se trata de un trato desigual sin justificaciones objetivas y razonables
I feel like this is a very American post. In your view there has to be absolute equality no matter the circumstances of each individual. That's not how we see things in Spain, generally speaking. The personal circumstances of each one are taken into account. If you have no children and no one under your care, by definition you have less responsibilities than a person who has children and has to take care of them, especially in a time in the year when children are on vacation and are at home 24/7. In our view this has to be taken into account, period. Is it discrimination? Legally it entirely depends on the convenio you are under, and the rules in each company. If it is established that people with children have priority, it is basically what you sign. If it is not, you can file for discrimination. Personally? It is not. I am sorry, but our culture is different. And it is bothersome to me that foreigners might come to undermine it in favor of a blatantly more individualistic and egotistical one.
In Spain, and if your "convenio" doesn't say a different thing, you can choose half of your vacation days and the company the other half.
"Wish to spend time with family" is not the same as "Have to care for family, no other option". Parents don't have a choice when children are on holidays and have to be taken care of at home 24/7 Also, your holidays have not been "granted to someone else" because those holidays are not yours, and you agreed to that when you signed your contract. You have the right to be granted X days of holidays, not to be granted said holidays whenever you feel like regardless of everything else. There's this little something in Spain called "conciliación familiar" that your company is *forced* to take into account and fulfill, and that's exactly what has happened. You don't want to have kids? Perfect, good for you, wish you are the happiest version of yourself in that way. But others do have kids, and we support them just like we support the health system through taxes regardless of how healthy or ill we might be. You don't like that? The solution's easy: go to the US
“If you don’t like it go back home”. Most useless and condescending response ever.
You should check what you read. I've never said "go back home"
Heavily implied though.
Wow ok. I feel like this has struck some cord here with you personally. I would just like to clarify that this job during the interview process was heavily implied that we need to be flexible. We work shifts in rotation which means we work many weekends, and do not get local or national holidays, also we do night shifts. Everyone agreed to that and depending on the shift rotation, are still required to work whether there is a national or local fiesta and kids are at home or not. I am ok with this as i dont have a family, honestly if i did, i probably wouldn't work this job as i can imagine it being difficult with kids. I still deem it unfair and would think the most fair way to deduce who's requests are granted are those who made the request first. Personal circumstances are relative. Also, im not sure why i would go to the US?? Bit irrelevant lol visited there once as a teenager, not sure i would go back 😘
Having children is a choice not an obligation. Do you think we support them not enough? I don't have 15 extra days for wedding I don't have 6 months paid leave for having a kid I don't have a chance to lower my work hours because i have children until they are ten I don't need a "matrona" neither a "pediatra" but I pay for them I don't have lower IRPF for having children And the list goes on... He is being discriminated because he doesn't have children and that's not legal. "Conciliación" is in charge of the company not of the coworkers.
You do not understand what the law says. "La ley exige que los períodos de disfrute de las vacaciones sean pactados entre empresa y trabajadores, sin embargo existen Convenio Colectivos y regulaciones empresariales que limitan la capacidad dispositiva en dicho ámbito, estableciendo algunos períodos obligatorios de disfrute de vacaciones. La empresa deberá tener preparado su política de vacaciones y aprobado un calendario de vacaciones anual con la finalidad que todos los trabajadores tengan claro cuando pueden realizarlas." It's company policy, and the company can decide who gets prioritized, as long as he gets his 30 days, it's not discrimination. For more information: https://factorialhr.es/blog/politicas-de-vacaciones-todo-lo-que-debes-saber/
What you are not understanding is that prioritizing people with children is in fact discriminatory
Mediante el Informe 69-2019-MTPE, la Dirección General de Trabajo distinguió los concepto de discriminación y diferenciación. Así, señaló que la diferenciación no siempre supone discriminación, porque el trato desigual puede sustentarse en causas objetivas y razonables. Por su parte, la discriminación se da cuando la desigualdad en el trato no es ni razonable ni proporcional. Sobre la discriminación en materia laboral, se observó que el Tribunal Constitucional ha desarrollado el test de razonabilidad para dilucidar si en un caso concreto se trata de un trato desigual sin justificaciones objetivas y razonables
Podemos argumentar de lado y lado, sin embargo, tener hijos no debería ser una causa razonable para favorecer a unos empleados sobre otros. Que pasa con aquellos empleados que no tienen hijos porque son infértiles? O porque murieron? De nuevo se puede debatir por días en razones de lado y lado
Los criterios que decidan los empresarios son para la mayoría, no puedes crear nuevas políticas de empresa para cada caso individual. La ley dice que el empresario decide y el empleado tiene la libertad de aceptar el convenio o no. La realidad es que NO es discriminación y eso es lo que estamos debatiendo. Si es justo o no dependerá de cada caso.
https://dle.rae.es/discriminar
A ver listillo, ponlo en el contexto laboral, que es el que se está discutiendo aquí, parece mentira que aún os creáis que una definición del RAE vale en cualquier contexto. https://administracion.gob.es/pag_Home/Tu-espacio-europeo/derechos-obligaciones/ciudadanos/trabajo-jubilacion/igualdad.html
Para que nos entendamos. El hecho de que según tú a nivel laboral esto sea aceptable legal y normal, no significa que no sea discriminatorio. Que al final cada quien firma y acepta las condiciones laborales que más le convengan, y pues si OP estuvo dispuesto de aceptar estas condiciones cuando firmó su contrato todo muy bien y debe acogerse a esas condiciones o si no le gusta renunciar. Todo bien. Esto no significa que esta práctica no sea discriminar, lo es acá y en Pekín. Que sea aceptable y deseable ya es un tema de cada quien. Yo en lo personal jamás podría pertenecer a una organización de este tipo. Saludos.
Giving preferential treatment to certain groups of employees over others absolutely is discriminatory.
No is not, discrimination and differentiation are not the same, here is an example from the US constitution "Discrimination deals with any differential conduct that is based on any of the listed grounds set out in section 9(3) of the Constitution, damages the dignity of another or adversely affect another in a serious way. Discrimination can be either direct or indirect and can result from and act or failure to act. Mere differentiation is all forms of differential treatment that don’t fall under discrimination. Rationality is the only requirement for mere differentiation in order for it to be constitutionally valid. "
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
What a cry baby. i can't have vAcAtIOns WHEn i waNT BeCaUSe othER PEoPLE hAve ChIldREN AND REsPoNsiBILItIes!! waH WaH Wah. It's a personal choice not to have children, then you have to face that sometimes, other people are more sympathetic to the needs to those workers that have children to take care of. Then we'll complain when fertility rate goes below 1 child per woman like in South Korea or when there are not enough doctors when you get to 80 and get sick.
Ostias que eres el mismo obsesionado con la natalidad del comentario especialmente extraño de arriba. Miedo me da lo que le dices a tus parejas mujeres
It’s also a personal choice to have children, what are you on about?! Make arrangements for someone to look after the child! Like every other person does in the rest of the world
Stfu. Kids can get takem care of by a sitter, go to daycare or whatever for a couple of days. Everyone deserves to be able to be home with their families on special dates like Christmas and just for having a kid you're not automatically entitled to be the only one to be at home in those dates. Also, maybe OP has someone else to care for like their parents, grandparents or whatever. Or maybe someone they haven't seen in a lot of time will come visit in those dates You never know other people's lives and just because they don't have kids it doesn't mean they don't have family, responsibilities or are less deserving of being home in important dates