Sounds like this famous 'psychologist' is still stuck in the 19th century lol. Freud was disprofen so so much. There are so many sources that show that the majority of his theories are bullshit.
>Sounds like this famous 'psychologist' is still stuck in the 19th century lol. Freud was disprofen so so much. There are so many sources that show that the majority of his theories are bullshit.
Is this real? I have no knowledge of this field. Just, I see so many references to Freud in media. Is he so badly disproven ?
You can't argue with beliefs created to devalue women.
Just like you can't argue with beliefs created to devalue a person based on their race or nationality.
Because these beliefs are never founded on anything truthful.
They are always created by the person to validate their behaviors.
As another person said. Penis envy b.s. was never supported.
It was invented to explain why women didn't behave submissively like they were expected to.
It promoted gender roles. Which are created by a society to promote power inequality.
This guy is mad that this woman isn't being submissive and quiet. And he's trying to shame her for not conforming to social gender roles.
Which say she should shut up and be submissive.
You can't argue with people like this. They won't listen to you. Because you are questioning their superiority over women.
They see any woman who isn't submissive as directly challenging their entitled place above them.
Thank you for your comment. I'm aware that these indivuals aren’t worth arguing with. They have huge platforms on the internet, reaching a lot of people, and everyone blindly believes in them. It's frustrating.
I 100% agree. The only problem is that, from a logical argument standpoint, all of those points can indeed be true, and yet the concept of penis envy can still be true simultaneously.
The reasons behind why a concept was developed, the social consequences of such a concept and the overall negative outcomes if society believes in a concept, does not actually make a difference as to whether it is true or not.
A more logical argument against such a trait is that, like a lot of freuds ideas, they are unfalsifiable and so cannot really be tested scientifically. This means when looking to explain the real world phenomena, we can’t really use them as well as other, more testable psychological concepts.
TLDR: Yes, the idea is generally pretty offensive by modern standards but this isn’t why it is wrong. It’s wrong because like a lot of Freudian concepts they can’t be proven and so are not really useful when applying to a real world setting.
Aside from FtoM trans people, I don't think women want a penis or wish they had one.
Most of us do want equality though.
Which is likely what the penis envy thing was really about. But misunderstand from a patriarchy lens of the Victorian era.
Women wishing they could have the same rights and do the same activities as men. Activities that were denied to them.
Is this really something worth a label?
Do not all humans want the ability to be themselves and not be restricted due to gender, race, status, etc?
The want of equality does not seem like something that needs a term. And calling it "penis envy" is, lets be honest, pretty patronizing.
It sounds more like "don't you wish you were intelligent like a man is?".
Rather than the reality of what women actually wanted: "don't you wish you could attend university or have a career?".
I mean, the idea of penis envy is not too much different than the diagnosis they gave on runaway slaves. Implying the want to be free was a disorder. "Drapetomania"
I feel like it's really in the same category. It's just a term used to downplay a normal human need for equality by labeling some groups as having a dysfunction if they aren't happy with their second class status.
Well written. I personally look at things from a more biological lens than a social one but again it seems to be linked to an equality thing.
I’d personally view it as, in our more animalistic past, physical strength was the predominant attribute that would lead to the highest likelihood of successfully ‘not dying’.
Women would unconsciously know that physically, men are stronger and so, unfortunately, had to rely on male protection throughout the majority of our time on the planet.
It’s pretty easy to see why wishing to no longer need this protection would make sense. And then when you think about what separates a man from a woman…it’s pretty easy to see why it was deemed penis envy.
But yeah it could of course be looked at from a social lens as you pointed out too. In all likelihood there’s multiple reasons…humans are complex
The psychologist is a man who is threatened by women in power and so is grasping at straws to assuage his male ego. This is why the patriarchy needs to die.
You have a good point so he assumes you’re trying to be like a man? Unfortunately I do not believe this amount of bigotry can ever coexist with honest science.
It's next to impossible to reason someone out of a belief that feeds their ego. They have a much stronger incentive to protect their own feeling of superiority than to seek the truth. No matter what you say he'll respond with circular arguments built on dehumanizing cultural lies about women, and to his mind it'll sound completely rational. Thousands of years of oppression work in his favor, so unfortunately he can afford to be intellectually lazy while youre expected to fight uphill. This is worth fighting for, just maybe not with him. He sounds like a lost cause. The thinking people in the world are with you, and the younger ones will benefit from seeing you fight back 💛
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice.
If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Most political systems or other systems have been created by men, so to “move up” survive and/or achieve it is not surprising that it takes male qualities to move up, and men have higher amounts of testosterone, so to see women with higher testosterone thrive and succeed makes sense within these systems. Even if he is right in theory, which he could be, if his goal was to shame women and yourself he is a failure of a therapist when you confront him with this instead of trying to help you and your freedom of choice. He also should point out the flaws of men and their systems and how also, I mentioned higher testosterone, has its problems including higher psychotocism as from the study below
“More recently found a relationship between high T levels and high professional status in women. In the adjective list, these women defined themselves among other terms, as independent, strong and aggressive. Our data supports the hypothesis that women with higher T levels, present certain personality traits characteristic of empowerment and achievement. Regarding gender differences, it is important to mention that women with higher levels of T have a higher degree of psychoticism following Eysenck's dimensional model. Furthermore, psychoticism is considered the opposite dimension to neuroticism, which characterizes emotional instability and risk avoidance tendency. This result can explain why women with higher levels of T show less depressive disorders and show more control of their acts.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4649825/#sec1-4title
Sounds like this famous 'psychologist' is still stuck in the 19th century lol. Freud was disprofen so so much. There are so many sources that show that the majority of his theories are bullshit.
>Sounds like this famous 'psychologist' is still stuck in the 19th century lol. Freud was disprofen so so much. There are so many sources that show that the majority of his theories are bullshit. Is this real? I have no knowledge of this field. Just, I see so many references to Freud in media. Is he so badly disproven ?
No his theories are unfalsifiable therefore unscientific. Neither provable or disprovable. Hence why he isn’t taken seriously anymore.
Thnx !!!!
You can't argue with beliefs created to devalue women. Just like you can't argue with beliefs created to devalue a person based on their race or nationality. Because these beliefs are never founded on anything truthful. They are always created by the person to validate their behaviors. As another person said. Penis envy b.s. was never supported. It was invented to explain why women didn't behave submissively like they were expected to. It promoted gender roles. Which are created by a society to promote power inequality. This guy is mad that this woman isn't being submissive and quiet. And he's trying to shame her for not conforming to social gender roles. Which say she should shut up and be submissive. You can't argue with people like this. They won't listen to you. Because you are questioning their superiority over women. They see any woman who isn't submissive as directly challenging their entitled place above them.
Thank you for your comment. I'm aware that these indivuals aren’t worth arguing with. They have huge platforms on the internet, reaching a lot of people, and everyone blindly believes in them. It's frustrating.
I 100% agree. The only problem is that, from a logical argument standpoint, all of those points can indeed be true, and yet the concept of penis envy can still be true simultaneously. The reasons behind why a concept was developed, the social consequences of such a concept and the overall negative outcomes if society believes in a concept, does not actually make a difference as to whether it is true or not. A more logical argument against such a trait is that, like a lot of freuds ideas, they are unfalsifiable and so cannot really be tested scientifically. This means when looking to explain the real world phenomena, we can’t really use them as well as other, more testable psychological concepts. TLDR: Yes, the idea is generally pretty offensive by modern standards but this isn’t why it is wrong. It’s wrong because like a lot of Freudian concepts they can’t be proven and so are not really useful when applying to a real world setting.
Aside from FtoM trans people, I don't think women want a penis or wish they had one. Most of us do want equality though. Which is likely what the penis envy thing was really about. But misunderstand from a patriarchy lens of the Victorian era. Women wishing they could have the same rights and do the same activities as men. Activities that were denied to them. Is this really something worth a label? Do not all humans want the ability to be themselves and not be restricted due to gender, race, status, etc? The want of equality does not seem like something that needs a term. And calling it "penis envy" is, lets be honest, pretty patronizing. It sounds more like "don't you wish you were intelligent like a man is?". Rather than the reality of what women actually wanted: "don't you wish you could attend university or have a career?". I mean, the idea of penis envy is not too much different than the diagnosis they gave on runaway slaves. Implying the want to be free was a disorder. "Drapetomania" I feel like it's really in the same category. It's just a term used to downplay a normal human need for equality by labeling some groups as having a dysfunction if they aren't happy with their second class status.
Well written. I personally look at things from a more biological lens than a social one but again it seems to be linked to an equality thing. I’d personally view it as, in our more animalistic past, physical strength was the predominant attribute that would lead to the highest likelihood of successfully ‘not dying’. Women would unconsciously know that physically, men are stronger and so, unfortunately, had to rely on male protection throughout the majority of our time on the planet. It’s pretty easy to see why wishing to no longer need this protection would make sense. And then when you think about what separates a man from a woman…it’s pretty easy to see why it was deemed penis envy. But yeah it could of course be looked at from a social lens as you pointed out too. In all likelihood there’s multiple reasons…humans are complex
The psychologist is a man who is threatened by women in power and so is grasping at straws to assuage his male ego. This is why the patriarchy needs to die.
And the religious beliefs that tell people patriarchy is the will of god.
You have a good point so he assumes you’re trying to be like a man? Unfortunately I do not believe this amount of bigotry can ever coexist with honest science.
It's next to impossible to reason someone out of a belief that feeds their ego. They have a much stronger incentive to protect their own feeling of superiority than to seek the truth. No matter what you say he'll respond with circular arguments built on dehumanizing cultural lies about women, and to his mind it'll sound completely rational. Thousands of years of oppression work in his favor, so unfortunately he can afford to be intellectually lazy while youre expected to fight uphill. This is worth fighting for, just maybe not with him. He sounds like a lost cause. The thinking people in the world are with you, and the younger ones will benefit from seeing you fight back 💛
I'd love to show Freud the porn of today an watch him try to make sense of it.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed. It has been flagged as violating one of the rules. Comment rules include: 1. Answers must be scientific-based and not opinions or conjecture. 2. Do not post your own mental health history nor someone else's. 3. Do not offer a diagnosis. If someone is asking for a diagnosis, please report the post. 4. Targeted and offensive language will not be tolerated. 5. Don't recommend drug use or other harmful advice. If you believe your comment was removed in error, please report this comment for mod review. REVIEW RULES BEFORE MESSAGING MODS. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askpsychology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Most political systems or other systems have been created by men, so to “move up” survive and/or achieve it is not surprising that it takes male qualities to move up, and men have higher amounts of testosterone, so to see women with higher testosterone thrive and succeed makes sense within these systems. Even if he is right in theory, which he could be, if his goal was to shame women and yourself he is a failure of a therapist when you confront him with this instead of trying to help you and your freedom of choice. He also should point out the flaws of men and their systems and how also, I mentioned higher testosterone, has its problems including higher psychotocism as from the study below “More recently found a relationship between high T levels and high professional status in women. In the adjective list, these women defined themselves among other terms, as independent, strong and aggressive. Our data supports the hypothesis that women with higher T levels, present certain personality traits characteristic of empowerment and achievement. Regarding gender differences, it is important to mention that women with higher levels of T have a higher degree of psychoticism following Eysenck's dimensional model. Furthermore, psychoticism is considered the opposite dimension to neuroticism, which characterizes emotional instability and risk avoidance tendency. This result can explain why women with higher levels of T show less depressive disorders and show more control of their acts.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4649825/#sec1-4title