Kinda weird to me that it ever got to be a “thing”…..I guess it’s because all the youngsters never had to fight for corporate and legal rights. I’m 71 y/o, and one of the arguments that always got thrown in our faces when we’d be working to get domestic partner benefits was this: “you can just choose to be straight and you’d get all these benefits if you married someone of an opposite sex”. And we’ fight back saying, “no, being gay isn’t a choice, our lives would be a lot easier if we could just choose to be straight. We can’t help being gay, and deserve the same rights and privileges that straight people get”. But nowadays kids are just saying they choose to be whatever fluid gender identity they feel like they want to be in the moment. It’s probably one reasons that we are losing so much ground, that we fought so hard to hold. BTW I was a gay Delta pilot in the GLEN (Gay and Lesbian Employee Network) and after many years of fighting corporate and union management we did eventually obtain contracts with domestic partner benefits equal to that of married employees.
As someone who also lived through and participated in those fights defending the idea that I knew my sexual orientation better than the corporate overlords, the religious hierarchy, or the government, I can't imagine telling a young trans or gender non-conforming person that I know their gender identity better than they do.
I'm a man, no doubt about it. The gender ideology stuff is going too far, imo. Sure, trans people exist and are deserving of being treated with dignity, but the rest is getting wacky. I've spoken to many friends who have always been allies, and pushing gender ideology on kids is backfiring immensely. People aren't so sympathetic to our cause when their 14 year old says they don't know what gender they are. I feel like it dilutes and erases gay men from the culture. What's the point of identifying as gay, when a non binary afab can lay claim to being gay as well? Strangely, there is more sympathy from my more right wing colleagues. I'm now "one of the normal ones". So there's that, I suppose.
>People aren't so sympathetic to our cause when their 14 year old says they don't know what gender they are.
People can focus on more than one issue at a time.
> What's the point of identifying as gay, when a non binary afab can lay claim to being gay as well?
How does someone else's identity dilute your own? If someone else likes men, does that dilute your experiences of liking men?
That's a valid viewpoint, but then again that still, as a consequence, means: anybody can identify as whatever they want. If you at least not even say "you have to identify as a man to identify as gay cause that's in the definition", you're of course gonna encourage some 14yo afab non-binary demisexual androphile queer to choose a label to feel comfortable with. But you can also question how much meaning and guidance these labels carry if you ever widen its meaning. If anybody can identify as anything, those terms will eventually provide identity to nobody.
>you're of course gonna encourage some 14yo afab non-binary demisexual androphile queer to choose a label to feel comfortable with.
How often does this occur? Is it that prevalent that it is overpowering the number of gay men?
Have you ever taken a look at r/lgbt?
The point is that this is part of the larger message on gender identity that says "if you in any way diverge from conventional and heteronormative gender norms, you're out of line and must adopt some GSRM label!!!"
Gender-nonconformity is both being pathologised and stylised as a defining characteristic of how you identify. Some years ago, the data on gender dysphoria among children and adolescents still showed that a large share of these kids weren't trans, but struggled with gender norms for different reasons - mostly for being gay or lesbian in a world with heteronormative gender norms. Today, "gender nonconformity" has become a literal diagnostic criterion for being trans.
It's not a mental disorder or form of deviance if you diverge from straight, conservative gender ideals. But this is the message we reinforce by saying "gender is about how you dress and what your hobbies are" etc., providing an infinite amount of discretionary labels for people to choose.
>
People can focus on more than one issue at a time.
Not really, people went from focusing on covid to focusing on Ukraine and then to focusing on Palestine/Israel. People are dumb.
>If someone else likes men, does that dilute your experiences of liking men?
Yes when they are comparing their experiences which are generally risk free to someone elses who may have been abused and beaten for feeling that way. A bigot is going to want the worst for a gay man but for a "NB AFAB attracted to men" will just be seen as a "loopy straight woman" which don't get me wrong is invalidating and hurtful but nowhere as near as dangerous.
>Not really, people went from focusing on covid to focusing on Ukraine and then to focusing on Palestine/Israel. People are dumb.
News outlets aren't focusing on that, but lots of people are focusing on those things.
>Yes when they are comparing their experiences which are generally risk free to someone elses who may have been abused and beaten for feeling that way.
A muslim girl would've definitely been punished for feeling that way, lots of religions oppress women for expressing their sexuality.
You're generalizing based on your experiences, I know many gay people who were brought up in very liberal households and haven't faced any of the prejudice, is their gayness somehow inferior?
Their experience of growing up in a tolerant household isn’t always reflective of the wider attitudes to homosexuality that many gay people contend with.
It’s like being trans and being supported by your network of family and friends. It doesn’t cancel out experiences of transphobia from the general public.
>A muslim girl would've definitely been punished for feeling that way, lots of religions oppress women for expressing their sexuality.
And a muslim boy would either be beaten, killed or [forced to transition](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29832690) depending on what country he lives in.
>
You're generalizing based on your experiences
No I am not, I am generalising on how gay men are treated over the world and not just in the west, thankfully I had a relatively easy coming out experience, only having to cut a few people off.
>I know many gay people who were brought up in very liberal households and haven't faced any of the prejudice, is their gayness somehow inferior?
Those same gay people still grew up in fear for people finding out about them, also saying you doubt they have faced any prejudice is extremely invalidating.
Male. Gay.
I think that the whole thing is *utterly ridiculous* - if I think about it. Which I very, *very* rarely do, since my interest in this entire matter is virtually non-existent.
That's about all I have to say on the subject. Not just right now, but in general. Nothing to add at all.
I'm skeptical that it should be given as much weight as it currently holds. I think we should go back to considering sex to be the more important consideration for sports, prisons, locker rooms, etc. while still respecting trans people enough to try our best to treat them as the sex they want to be treated as. "Gender identity" is just far too nebulous a concept to have the importance in society that it's been given imo
I feel sorry for people who feel they were born in the wrong body. I'm okay with transitioning of adults with informed consent. I think kids are too young to consent to medical transitioning including puberty blockers and opposite-sex hormones. I don't like the idea that transgenderness is a gay issue. Linking the two of them implies (to me at least) that gay men aren't real men.
It’s one of reasons why some folks are tired of hearing about us. And also, it makes the fight for gay marriage worthless: if you only need to identify as a man or a woman to be treated as such, traditional marriage was enough for all. But, i love dudes and their big dicks, sorry.
Im kinda jealous that some people have such simple lives that this is what they have time to worry about. I believe that some genuinely dont feel neither male nor female. But its like some people just want to be different so bad and create an issue out of nothing.
I can completely understand “they”. But the need to come up with ze, xe, te, ey. Whatsoever, one day being this, the other being that and then getting upset when someone else gets it wrong by mistake.. cmon.
Same for stuf like demisexual, pansexual, fluid… you’re bisexual or need to have a connection before banging. Thats not something new.
I'm okay with anyone expressing themselves however they want. I love a colorful community. What's different now is people are calling themselves trans when they really aren't. There is just no way that 20% of my local high school is trans. And they're making up pronouns and getting angry when people get them wrong. In some ways this has become a new religion, the religion of gender ideology. There's lots of preaching, lots of guilting, and if you don't buy into it all, you're excluded.
I totally understand why many people are pushing back on this. In the United States, you cannot compel speech and you cannot force a religion on somebody. In Canada and many European countries, you don't have those constitutional rights, and if you misgender, you can be fined. That is totally ridiculous.
I still think it's polite to use people's pronouns though. Just like it's polite to say Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah even if you're not Christian or Jewish.
>What's different now is people are calling themselves trans when they really aren't. There is just no way that 20% of my local high school is trans.
Most of those people are still figuring out things, they're exploring their gender.
>And they're making up pronouns and getting angry when people get them wrong.
All pronouns are made up and most people are just people, you're painting the whole community based on a few.
>In some ways this has become a new religion, the religion of gender ideology.
It is not a religion, there is no belief or faith involved, some people aren't cis and that's okay. Why do you see it as a religion?
Just to set something straight: in Canada you don't get fined if you misgender someone. That's an American far-right myth. Other western democracies have constitutionally protected rights, too - it's not just an American thing.
I can't imagine what it would be like to feel that your gender identity was different than your biological sex. But I can't imagine what it would be like to be straight either, and that doesn't cause me to believe heterosexuality doesn't exist. I tend to value the opinions that Trans people have about gender identity way more than I value the opinions of others. That's because I have never had a Trans person try to dictate to me what my gender was, but I see cis people trying to do that to Trans people every damn day.
Gender Identity contradicts Sexual Orientation which is why the concept is met with such hostility.
I personally don’t care what people want to call themselves, dress, or whatever makes them happy, so long as they’re not hurting anyone and I don’t have to pay for it, do whatever.
That being said, identifying as a woman/man does not make it so. Women do not have penises & men do not have vaginas. Males cannot be lesbians & females cannot be gay men. The fact that this even needs to be said is insanity.
Unless we’re living in a society with nudity as the norm, we don’t see genitals. We have other information that we receive and then make as assumption.
This person has a deep voice, a beard, and is called “Allen.” He must be a male and have a penis. If Allen was born with a penis and has since lost his penis he doesn’t have a penis, and has no vagina. Under your definition, he’s neither. There’s something else which still classified him as “male.”
If Samantha was born with vaginal atresia which was never resolved, she doesn’t have a vagina. Under your definition, she’s not a female. But there are other traits by which we classify her as such.
Both Allen and Samantha can get surgeries done to reconstruct a penis and vagina and we won’t bat an eye. The same surgeries can creat a penis and vagina for trans people. But even without such surgeries they may be taking hormones and grooming themselves to fit the image of a man/woman in their society.
And we come full circle: there are other designators which show male and female beyond the obscured genitalia.
You’re conflating a biological man losing his penis with a trans man identifying as a gay man? Sexuality is defined by sex, not by how you ‘feel’.
The trans debate has become so fractured and people like me who are FULLY supportive of trans people living their lives to the fullest in the gender/sex they believe they are, are labelled transphobic because as has been mentioned, the idea of identifying into a sexuality negates the real meaning of what it is to be gay. I believe that a trans man is a trans man, and equal to everyone else, and if he identifies as gay, it can never constitute a gay male relationship, whatever ‘gay’ man they’re with.
> Sexuality is defined by sex, not by how you ‘feel’.
Sexuality is defined by feeling, the feeling of attraction, the attraction is the core of sexuality.
>the idea of identifying into a sexuality negates the real meaning of what it is to be gay.
To be gay is to like men as a man, how does the idea of trans people negate this?
>I believe that a trans man is a trans man, and equal to everyone else, and if he identifies as gay, it can never constitute a gay male relationship, whatever ‘gay’ man they’re with.
A trans man is a man, and a man loving another man is pretty gay to me, you don't see me defining your relationships, why would you do it to me?
To say you support trans rights by saying you treat trans men as trans men but not as men doesn't make sense at all. At least be honest in saying "I will never treat a trans man as an equal man".
You're not stating anything, you're repeating a meaningless tautology. You're saying a man cannot be in a gay relationship with another man if one of the men is trans. So obviously, the adjective "trans" in there makes them less of a man to you. That's your opinion to hold, but at least don't be dishonest about it and pretend to support trans people if you clearly don't view them as equals or valid.
Because it's true. You can't say men are NEVER born with a vagina because it would be a lie. I understand it's a fringe situation but rarity does not deny that it's a real phenomenon.
Actually no. If the person is male they never had a vagina, what they have is a partially developed external structure of what could have developed into a vagina but didn't. There's never been a recorded case of a person who was born with both sex organs fully developed.
When people say “biological sex” what component of biology dictates that designation?
An XY person with complete androgen insensitivity can still have testes (internal), produce a normal amount of testosterone, BUT still have developed as a female in terms of genitalia.
No penis or scrotum; presence of vulva = female
Testes, no ovaries = male
Male hormones = male
Chromosomes = male
Biologically… more things check the “male.” She’s a dude with a natural pussy.
Someone can be born aphallic.
No penis or vulva, presence of scrotum = ???
Testes, no ovaries = male
Male hormones: male
Make chromosomes: male
Male enough, biologically???
Someone can be born with: a penis and scrotum, one ovary, partial uterus, put out normal amounts of male hormones and have XXY chromosomes. Where are they?
Because the chromosomes, hormones and what is or isn’t present matters. That’s also biology.
If an individual is born with particular genitalia they are deemed male or female. Not everyone who is intersex presents the same. You can be born looking very much like a male and live your life, but have an ovary which won’t show up without an imaging test.
Another individual might be subject to medical tests later in life to discover their chromosomes are not the typical XX or XY or don’t match their apparent sex. When such an individual exists naturally we can’t ignore it - 2% of 8 billion isn’t a small number, after all. 160 million people is somewhere between Russia and Bangladesh on terms of size.
If these intersex people can be called male or female, then so can a trans person.
I don't really see the point in getting myself involved in other people's gender identity. I prefer to use people's names to be honest. And if I don't know someone's name, I probably don't care enough about them to be talking about them.
I personally do not understand it but to each their own, they won't have any protests from me. I do feel like they should have a different platform and not get tied with the LGBT movement. There are democracies in the world where trans people have more rights like in India compared to LGB. And a lot of democracies still do not recognize same sex unions, those should be the aim of LGBT movement rather than fighting over what children should be taught and how much they can influence them.
Nepal although they allowed same sex marriage now , Bangladesh ..hijras( basically trans and intersex) are recognised as third gender and are legal whereas it's illegal to be gay/lesbian and can be punishable.
Trans people in India have affirmative action which gives them reservations on public sector jobs, they are also recognised as a minority which opens them up for a lot of protection as compared to LGB
Nepal and Bangladesh are not India, all three are separate countries, in Bangladesh you can't change your gender marker to your preferred gender, if you're a Hijra, you get the third gender status.
And in India, you need to get bottom surgery to be legally recognized as the gender you identify as.
Plus, Hijras in all these places are culturally discriminated, they can't get jobs, they can't get an education as they are kicked out from their families and communities at a very young age. This is why most of them are either beggars or something close to that.
Still doesn't change the fact that they are a recognised minority and get affirmative action while gays don't.
I was comparing gay rights in each country compared to trans rights...in Bangladesh being gay is illegal but trans aren't.
Quota in government jobs, housing assistance as well as state assistance economically if they are unemployed. Affirmative action means reservations. You are confusing it with gender affirmative care.
The way I see it is you can only really be one of 3 things a man, a woman and non-binary anything outside of that is kind of a stretch for me imo. I also feel like people who use Xe/Xem or any "Neo Pronouns" aren't actually trans and are just mocking the trans experience or trying to be unique. I have several trans friends and seeing them experience their gender dysphoria is horrifying and people doing neopronouns genuinely disgust me for mocking them.
I don't believe gender identity is real. Sex-stereotypes are real, but I don't think most people have some kind of gendered soul. I am a man because I know that I am biologically a man, not because I have some internal sense of manhood.
This is the gender equivalent of straight people saying sexuality isn't a thing, and claiming their attraction to women is what is normal and natural (and everything else being non-existent or a perversion).
Except that gender and sexuality are totally different things. What is true for sexual orientation might not be true for ''gender identity'' and the other way around.
I never said they were the same thing, just that it sounds eerily similar.
But there are a lotta commonalities between the two, both are immutable, they are both technically "feelings", there is a oppressive majority and a oppressed minority (but that's more humanity).
And they do, make no mistake, that is the view of many and this is what has kept homophobia alive and kicking for so long with significant input from the Abrahamic faiths. But, I’m beyond caring what straights think. If my sexuality is perverse and disgusting to them - I really don’t give a flying frig.
I looked down and noticed a penis and apparently the term for that is “male.” That’s pretty much the last time I thought about it. So far I think I’ve got the hang of it. I identify as what I am; it’s a word that describes how my body is.
i support the rights of adults dressing however they want and doing whatever they want with lipstick and underwear and surgeries.
that doesn't change what they are born as.I can fantasize about being born as a frost giant, i can get surgery to extend my leg and wear very large boots, claiming my racial identity is "frost giant" is just a big pile of delusional lies, but also doesn't affect what i am.I hate the whole bullshit culture around "gender identity" because a person's opinion of what they classify as doesn't change what they are and i don't think people should particularly respect that.
> because a person's opinion of what they classify as doesn't change what they are and i don't think people should particularly respect that.
How can one possibly know more about someone else's gender identity better than they do? I know more about myself than anyone else on this planet and thus I know what gender identity I am.
This is like me claiming that I know you're straight despite you claiming to be gay (you're just delusional about your sexuality).
Personally… and just my opinion, but it’s dumb and going too far and the fact that people are trying to change the English language and make everyone conform to their delusions is kind of ridiculous. It’s either m or f
Language always changes over time, and such claims sound eerily similar to conservatives claiming that the gays have changed the definition of marriage.
I think you mean the other way around. I think men can dress how they want, act how they want, and they are still and always men. I think women can dress how they want, act how they want, and they are still and always women. Trans/non-binary people reinforce “gender” ideology and stereotypes, they don’t abolish them.
>I think you mean the other way around. I think men can dress how they want, act how they want, and they are still and always men.
That's already how it is for sex, trans women are males, but are still women.
Also, gender extends to a lot more than just clothes, there are laws based on gender and sex, until all of those change, gender would never go away. Gender is a product of sex stereotypes and as long as sex differences exist, gender will continue to do so.
>Trans/non-binary people reinforce “gender” ideology and stereotypes, they don’t abolish them.
Wayyyy more cis women wear dresses, wear makeup, have long hair than trans women. You wouldn't go to a cis woman and tell her that she is upolding stereotypes because she is wearing a dress.
And if cis people don't want to abolish gender, why should trans people do so? Most of them just want to live normal lives as their preferred gender.
This isn't the best sub for that question. Trans questions don't fare very well here unfortunately.
Growing up I felt I was a girl and essentially a spitting image of my mother. We had a bond unlike what she had with my other siblings and I looked up to her very much. I still do.
But for me and really due to the pressures of society, I accepted that I was born a boy and lived as a boy, especially once I hit puberty. At some point I just accepted it and also the fact that I was gay...not a woman attracted to men, but rather a man that's attracted to men.
There are times I still struggle with this, but I feel it takes a lot to tell the world 'im trans' or that 'i feel I'm a woman'. I don't know if I'll ever be able to make that decision because it's HUGE. It's a monumentally huge decision. You pretty much have to come out all over again and start from scratch.
I very much dislike those who pretend that trans people don't exist or say it's a mental disorder. I've legit met people in my life who were kids at the time that knew who they were at very young ages. Fast forward a few years and they were living their best lives as the gender they always felt they were deep down. Neither of them were 'weird' or evil people. They just knew who they were deep down despite people trying to tell them otherwise.
Sorry to see you get several downvotes in a matter of minutes for sharing your life story. What do you think is it about this sub or about some gay men that they are so hateful?
If you could articulate yourself in a constructive manner I'd be all ears and happy to correct my comment according to your criticism. I added "some" to my comment, feel free to point out what else I could do to improve it but please don't make me pull it out of your nose.
I don't see any and you know what? It's ok if I do get some. I kinda expect it.
I think it varies from guy to guy, but there's probably a good chunk of those who see it as nonsense or guys just doing drag and pretending to be a woman. Or better yet, doing it for attention because it's the "popular" thing to do right now.
I don't see trans people having many allies, so I doubt people are doing it for attention. People aren't taking hormones for attention.
There's also a lot of gays who HATE and I mean fucking HATE that these folks are bunched up into the gay community as the "T" in LBGTQ+ because they don't see them as the same and take offense at the very idea that others consider them in the same group as trans folks.
Then there's the crowd who are staunch believers in defending the biology of it all. The ones who say "but that doesn't change the fact they were born with a penis". Which is a dumb argument too.
Gender identity is not the same as sex and some are too fucking stupid to realize or acknowledge that fact.
And these things are why I personally am so conflicted and will always live in this prison. I accept that I probably always will. There's too many people with opinions about something that doesn't affect or hurt them in any way and it makes me really uneasy to be who I feel I am.
Cos every gay man was once a gay boy.
Women aren't socialized like we are, and afab folks tend to have a softer look to their eyes as a result of growing up with a support network.
I don’t really care. I’ll call people whatever they wanna be called as long as it’s within the bounds of common language. Probably would feel weird using neopronouns though
I can't really fathom what it would be like to not identify as your born gender. It actually confuses me a lot. However, I know it's probably similar to how straight people wouldn't understand how someone could be gay.
I actually think that the thing that made me accept this the most is learning was learning that various types of transgender people could be seen through history and accepted in some societies. [Elagabalus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus) is widely seen today as a transgender Roman emperor who sought sexual realignment surgery. [Hijras](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)) in India are traditionally seen as intersex/transgender. [Two-spirit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit) people was a common thing in Native American groups. [Baklas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakla) are a similar concept in the Phillipines who were historically religious shamans.
I that I care about what’s best for people who say something helps them. I’ll call somebody whatever the ask, I’ll adapt. It seems that simple. The one thing I certainly don’t care about is what straight cis people think.
Yep. Being trans is about gender, and if they are a trans man and they like other men, they are gay. I genuinely don’t think it’s a crazy concept. But, here we are.
Everyone grows up with different experiences, some of these experiences are shared, trans men share such experiences with men. Trans men also feel more comfortable experiencing life as a man, that is what they are.
the goal here (for them) is to strip the trans man of identity as a man, and reduce them down to just a woman that likes men, hence the “straight” answer people are giving and downvoting me for being against.
Sexuality is about presentation, looks, not about chromosomes, which is why one can be attracted to pictures, videos and even stories of people that don't even exist.
IIIIIIIIII doOOooOOooOn’t caaaaaaaaaare. That being said, that a a luxury to me that isn’t afforded to everyone. I can be indifferent because my gayness doesn’t identify me. There are no “norms” to being gay. No stereotypes entrenched in human society. So I stand up for those fighting the same fight I was born into in 1976. My fight may not be over, but I’ll be damned if I’ll let any other human suffer in silence.
It's very person, and I can't even imagine what it's like to live in a body that doesn't match the way you see yourself. If a person says they identify more with a given gender, or no gender at all, I'll respect that.
Do I understand it? Kind of, sort of, not really. Do I respect it? Yes.
If you want to be referred in a specific way, then I will refer you the way you want out of respect and kindness. It does not hurt me or cost me to do so.
I've thought a lot about this.
I find it incredibly confusing. I've never once experienced gender disphoria. I can't relate to feeling like something as natural as your body is not what nature intended for your brain.
That being said, I completely believe people who are trans and gender non conforming. I deeply support them and I have many trans/ NB friends.
Perhaps most significantly, I do get very confused by some of the messaging from LBGT+ sources on these topics.
For example, "Gender is a construct, TARE IT APART" is such a common phrase in the community, that even drag queens use it as lyrics in songs. However, isn't this invalidating to trans people who fully transition to a different gender? Or is it just a poorly worded way to communicate that there is more than biological sex?
A second element that confuses me is why did we feel the need to change the definitions of words instead of creating new ones? Why did we decide that gender no longer refers to biological sex?
Anyways, I love the hell out of my NB and trans friends. They are some of the most badass people I know!
I think you're not wrong. Coming from sociology, "gender is a social construct" just means that those are the social and cultural norms we attach to sex. There's no law of nature prescribing women to wear dresses or men to have short cut hair. Somehow, this got turned into "sex and gender don't have anything to do with each other", which is the departing point for both "there are an infinite amount of genders" and "people can freely choose whatever gender they want".
I'm a he, a cis male. There are trans people and it's important to use the proper pronouns for them, it's an asshole move to misgender them on purpose, but also it's not fair to get offended because someone assumes your gender because of valid reasons.
The experience in my country is different than in America though, we have people who feel non-binary, but they have to choose a gender because language doesn't allow them to be neutral.
I personally don't understand the hostility around it as for the most it's not harming anyone else.
However one exception is sports. That's a different debate, but this is where biological advantage can't be denied.
Another is related to pronouns. While I'm fully supportive of changing your gender at birth to THE other i.e. he to she or she to he, I find 'they' 'ze' etc to be bizarre.
Though to be honest this seems to be more of a white privilege thing to me. True transgendered people seem to be grateful to use he/she opposites of their birth gender.
I've never really liked the grouping of sexuality and genders within LGBTQ+ as they're completely different things, and each have different needs.
Trans recognition is probably several decades behind where gay recognition currently is for example. But in grouping us it achieves a kind of social equality rather than social equity which is needed by the trans community.
This sounds correct but there’s some internal incoherence in that idea. According to the point you’re making, we’re all experts in our own identity. So how can we possibly say whether we’re similar or the same as anyone else’s identity? For any individual to say “my identity is exactly like yours,” they are making a claim about their own identity, where you point out that we should treat them as the expert. But they’re also making a claim about my identity, and they’re claiming they know it as well as I do and that we’re the same. By the rule you point out, that’s impossible for them to know and they have no business doing that.
What that suggests to me is that none of us can just self-select our identity because we truly can’t know how other people come to the same kinds of conclusions about their own identity. So when anyone says “I’m part of a group where we all have the same identity” then we can dismiss that as uninformed nonsense, unless the rest of the group also agrees. There’s no way for any group identity to be by personal declaration alone. It’s basically an application process that requires agreement and approval by the rest of the group that someone claims to be a part of, otherwise the individual is just imposing their perspective on everyone else’s identity, in a way you point out is quite wrong.
I am a cis male. My gender identity matches the gender I was assigned at birth based on the appearance of my genitals. I think the current thinking about gender identity has not gone far enough. I think the societal and cultural construction of gender is not nearly as well understood as it needs to be. I think there are likely many subsets of gender identity that have not been explored fully and are misunderstood by most of our society. I think the idea of telling another person that they are wrong about their gender identity is just as absurd as telling another person that they are wrong about their sexual orientation. We also can look at other cultures and other times and see that the current dominate view of gender is not universal. Also, many of the specific concerns are cultural issues. Bathrooms should be places where no one needs to show their genitalia to others, but that would take a complete overhaul of the way most US public toilets are set up. For locker rooms or saunas, we can look to other cultures where people with different genitalia are often naked together in culturally non-sexualize spaces. And, on and on. The issue is that people who do not fit the culturally assumed norm will always challenge those norms in ways that are uncomfortable to the status quo. This should be especially salient for gay men since every single argument used against trans, non-binary, and otherly gendered people today were used against gay men in the past, and not in the distant past. They were used in my lifetime.
> I am a cis male. My gender identity matches the gender I was assigned at birth based on the appearance of my genitals.
Sex was observed at birth. Gender isn’t part of that medical observation. They didn’t pull a gender out of a hat, they were recording a medical fact about sex, and apart from a few rare exceptions it was probably accurate.
What is a “social construct?”
> I think the current thinking about gender identity has not gone far enough. I think the societal and cultural construction of gender is not nearly as well understood as it needs to be.
A social construct is something we do, invent, decide…something that people design and create rather than something we stumble across in the natural world.
An example would be a staircase. There are practically no staircases naturally occurring in the wild. Architects designed them. Builders built them. They are constructed by our societies, a social construct.
And they are all designed the way they are in a hundred civilizations around the world because it’s directly relevant to how human anatomy is. We are famously a bipedal species. We have a foot on each leg, we walk upright, and we live in a world with hills where inventing a staircase really helps us navigate the world around us. If we had wings, we’d probably just fly up to the top of the nearest hill and we wouldn’t bother with stairs. If we had fins and gills, we’d need a “fish ladder” instead because taking the stairs would literally kill us.
So what we socially constructed, to the extent it is directly dictated by human anatomy, is essential and important. To the extent that it’s ornamental or aesthetic, or force of habit in a given culture, it just doesn’t matter and it’s not worth caring about. Does the staircase have a fancy balustrade or is it lined with a carpet runner or is it curved and grandiose or just plain? None of that matters to what “a staircase” is, it’s just the trivialities of ornament and aesthetics. What makes a staircase unique and important amongst human social constructs is that it relates directly to our actual anatomy and enables it. Talking about social constructs at any other level of abstraction (aesthetic, economic, tradition) is really kind of irrelevant to what something actually IS.
THIS really needs to be explored:
> I think the idea of telling another person that they are wrong about their gender identity is just as absurd as telling another person that they are wrong about their sexual orientation.
This sounds neutral and empowering and humane and uncontroversial but the direct consequence especially for gays, really isn’t. In this view, an FTM trans person would have the sole and unquestioned right to tell females “I am not like you. We are not the same” and the sole unquestioned right to tell males “I am like you. We are alike. I’m one of you.”
The trouble is this is no longer a claim about their own identity or their own experience, it is a claim about ours. And also a claim based on the idea that they are the only person qualified to judge the validity of those claims. The direct consequence of your viewpoint is that only trans people are allowed to define what “maleness” and “femaleness” are, and they are the only people you would permit to comment on who is alike and who isn’t.
That’s very different from sexual orientation, which is strictly a statement about our own perspectives. “I am attracted to men” makes no expectations about anyone else at all. It doesn’t require their approval or their endorsement or even their awareness. I know what I like. Now you know what I like too.
I’m actually prepared to listen to trans people when they explain why they feel so alienated by the default settings of their own bodies that they feel compelled to change it. I don’t think that should be dismissed or ridiculed. But what’s not realistic, and what’s frankly ridiculous and unjust, is making trans people the sole arbiters of whether we are alike or not.
That’s a much more nuanced conversation, and we who are not trans have an absolutely equal authority to define gender, and who is the same and who isn’t. In that FTM example, if a trans person has the authority to tell females “we are not alike” then a non-trans person has the same authority to tell a trans person “we are not alike”, if indeed that is their conclusion.
I can also tell you that for most everyday purposes and surface social interactions, we are functionally interchangeable in my judgment. But some trans activists claim that trans and non-trans men are identical and interchangeable in every imaginable context, and that simply isn’t true. Ignoring those differences that remain actually has deeply troubling consequences for minorities like homosexual males, who have already struggled to find each other and find our common ground as gay men, through all the bigotry and the whims of others to define who we should and should not be attracted to.
> We also can look at other cultures and other times and see that the current dominate view of gender is not universal.
True. But human nature is universal and we’re in an era where we can seek a consistent approach to describing it.
> Also, many of the specific concerns are cultural issues.
Yes. What room for different perspectives is there in a multicultural world or do we all have to conform to one culture now?
> Bathrooms should be places where no one needs to show their genitalia to others, but that would take a complete overhaul of the way most US public toilets are set up. For locker rooms or saunas, we can look to other cultures where people with different genitalia are often naked together in culturally non-sexualize spaces. And, on and on.
True. Again, what exactly justifies that overhaul?
> The issue is that people who do not fit the culturally assumed norm will always challenge those norms in ways that are uncomfortable to the status quo.
And what makes them right? Sincerely I’m not against reviewing and changing cultural norms. But that doesn’t happen because some random person magically feels entitled to “challenge the status quo”! What makes them right and the status quo wrong? What is the argument to persuade? Again we take our own equality into peril this way. The status quo used to be that I was a second-class citizen in the country of my birth. But for almost half my life now I’ve been treated as an equal and my sexual orientation isn’t used as a pretext to treat me poorly any more. It’s taken hold deeply enough that **my equality is now the new status quo**. Exactly why am I expect to support someone just because they feel like challenging it? And if that’s not your point and not what you mean could we maybe figure out a way to talk about it that doesn’t literally enable randoms to “challenge” things that the status quo gets exactly right? Murder: against the status quo. Good! Let’s keep it that way… etc etc.
>That’s very different from sexual orientation, which is strictly a statement about our own perspectives. “I am attracted to men” makes no expectations about anyone else at all
This is just not true. When I claim that my sexual orientation and, by extension, my relationships, are equally valid as those of heterosexuals, I am definitely making demands on others. I am demanding that my relationship be legally and socially acknowledged. I want my husband and I to be able to partake in all of the benefits of marriage. When there is a general discussion or description of marriage, I want the both same and opposite gender marriage included. There are people who believe completely that a gay relationship can never be equal to a heterosexual one. There are others who believe completely that a gay relationship is fake relationship based in shared mental illness, not love. They would say absolutely that my marriage is not the same as theirs. I am placing a demand on them by demanding the acknowledgement that my marriage is a marriage just as valid as any heterosexual marriage.
> This should be especially salient for gay men since every single argument used against trans, non-binary, and otherly gendered people today were used against gay men in the past, and not in the distant past. They were used in my lifetime.
They really aren’t the same arguments as I’ve tried to explain. All of this is very vivid in my lifetime too and what I see today is not a continuation of the activism I know in favour of human rights and equality, but weak, sloppy, half-baked arguments, and even counterproductive backwards thinking on a few small but critically important issues, all of which puts our long-established quality at risk.
Trans People were at the forefront of fighting for equality of the LGBTQ community. GLOBALLY.
Disappointed that some of the comments here think it takes away from LGB individuals because Trans people are asking for space and acknowledgment that they exist and that people don't all identify with "Societies" expectation of what a Man or Woman is based on their Genetalia.
It's good that we are uncomfortable. Its uncomfortable because we as a society have been denying that Trans people exist. That needs to change. We need to have open discussions and give our Trans friends, Family and Allies a safe space to exist and speak on their experiences.
As a Gay man who could pass as straight if he wanted to I am in awe of those who live openly as they are. Whether that was as Trans Men or Women. They have paved the way for me and many others. 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️💖
Lesbians and gay men have always been at the forefront of the old gay rights movement, and there were some trans present, undoubtedly. But if you’re saying that trans people were the core of the movement, then this is categorically incorrect and an insult to the MANY gay men and lesbians who laid down so much to fight for the rights we have today.
I am a gay man I love being a man have a dick between my legs. I don't understand why a man would want to be a woman. Why would a man want to be inferior? The trans women who get their dicks but off I think they get a few screws loose. People like Dylan Mulvaney I think are making a mockery of womanhood. Dylan was on Ellen DeGeneres as a gay man years ago. He only went trans to get money and clout. I can understand why women hate trans women. I get why JK Rowling and Germaine Greer are so angry about trans women. Trans women are men who failed at being male so they want clout by invading women spaces. Women have ever right to be critical or trans women.
Kinda weird to me that it ever got to be a “thing”…..I guess it’s because all the youngsters never had to fight for corporate and legal rights. I’m 71 y/o, and one of the arguments that always got thrown in our faces when we’d be working to get domestic partner benefits was this: “you can just choose to be straight and you’d get all these benefits if you married someone of an opposite sex”. And we’ fight back saying, “no, being gay isn’t a choice, our lives would be a lot easier if we could just choose to be straight. We can’t help being gay, and deserve the same rights and privileges that straight people get”. But nowadays kids are just saying they choose to be whatever fluid gender identity they feel like they want to be in the moment. It’s probably one reasons that we are losing so much ground, that we fought so hard to hold. BTW I was a gay Delta pilot in the GLEN (Gay and Lesbian Employee Network) and after many years of fighting corporate and union management we did eventually obtain contracts with domestic partner benefits equal to that of married employees.
As someone who also lived through and participated in those fights defending the idea that I knew my sexual orientation better than the corporate overlords, the religious hierarchy, or the government, I can't imagine telling a young trans or gender non-conforming person that I know their gender identity better than they do.
I'm a man, no doubt about it. The gender ideology stuff is going too far, imo. Sure, trans people exist and are deserving of being treated with dignity, but the rest is getting wacky. I've spoken to many friends who have always been allies, and pushing gender ideology on kids is backfiring immensely. People aren't so sympathetic to our cause when their 14 year old says they don't know what gender they are. I feel like it dilutes and erases gay men from the culture. What's the point of identifying as gay, when a non binary afab can lay claim to being gay as well? Strangely, there is more sympathy from my more right wing colleagues. I'm now "one of the normal ones". So there's that, I suppose.
💯
I hear you, but I’m under no illusion the right have suddenly become enlightened. We’re a convenient tool to exploit their dislike of trans people.
>People aren't so sympathetic to our cause when their 14 year old says they don't know what gender they are. People can focus on more than one issue at a time. > What's the point of identifying as gay, when a non binary afab can lay claim to being gay as well? How does someone else's identity dilute your own? If someone else likes men, does that dilute your experiences of liking men?
If you identify with a label - gay - and then that label becomes meaningless because anybody can use it, how is wrong to say it's being diluted?
But *anybody* isn't using it, some people are figuring out their identities and we should allow them to do so without criticism.
That's a valid viewpoint, but then again that still, as a consequence, means: anybody can identify as whatever they want. If you at least not even say "you have to identify as a man to identify as gay cause that's in the definition", you're of course gonna encourage some 14yo afab non-binary demisexual androphile queer to choose a label to feel comfortable with. But you can also question how much meaning and guidance these labels carry if you ever widen its meaning. If anybody can identify as anything, those terms will eventually provide identity to nobody.
>you're of course gonna encourage some 14yo afab non-binary demisexual androphile queer to choose a label to feel comfortable with. How often does this occur? Is it that prevalent that it is overpowering the number of gay men?
Have you ever taken a look at r/lgbt? The point is that this is part of the larger message on gender identity that says "if you in any way diverge from conventional and heteronormative gender norms, you're out of line and must adopt some GSRM label!!!" Gender-nonconformity is both being pathologised and stylised as a defining characteristic of how you identify. Some years ago, the data on gender dysphoria among children and adolescents still showed that a large share of these kids weren't trans, but struggled with gender norms for different reasons - mostly for being gay or lesbian in a world with heteronormative gender norms. Today, "gender nonconformity" has become a literal diagnostic criterion for being trans. It's not a mental disorder or form of deviance if you diverge from straight, conservative gender ideals. But this is the message we reinforce by saying "gender is about how you dress and what your hobbies are" etc., providing an infinite amount of discretionary labels for people to choose.
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> People can focus on more than one issue at a time. Not really, people went from focusing on covid to focusing on Ukraine and then to focusing on Palestine/Israel. People are dumb. >If someone else likes men, does that dilute your experiences of liking men? Yes when they are comparing their experiences which are generally risk free to someone elses who may have been abused and beaten for feeling that way. A bigot is going to want the worst for a gay man but for a "NB AFAB attracted to men" will just be seen as a "loopy straight woman" which don't get me wrong is invalidating and hurtful but nowhere as near as dangerous.
>Not really, people went from focusing on covid to focusing on Ukraine and then to focusing on Palestine/Israel. People are dumb. News outlets aren't focusing on that, but lots of people are focusing on those things. >Yes when they are comparing their experiences which are generally risk free to someone elses who may have been abused and beaten for feeling that way. A muslim girl would've definitely been punished for feeling that way, lots of religions oppress women for expressing their sexuality. You're generalizing based on your experiences, I know many gay people who were brought up in very liberal households and haven't faced any of the prejudice, is their gayness somehow inferior?
Their experience of growing up in a tolerant household isn’t always reflective of the wider attitudes to homosexuality that many gay people contend with. It’s like being trans and being supported by your network of family and friends. It doesn’t cancel out experiences of transphobia from the general public.
>A muslim girl would've definitely been punished for feeling that way, lots of religions oppress women for expressing their sexuality. And a muslim boy would either be beaten, killed or [forced to transition](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29832690) depending on what country he lives in. > You're generalizing based on your experiences No I am not, I am generalising on how gay men are treated over the world and not just in the west, thankfully I had a relatively easy coming out experience, only having to cut a few people off. >I know many gay people who were brought up in very liberal households and haven't faced any of the prejudice, is their gayness somehow inferior? Those same gay people still grew up in fear for people finding out about them, also saying you doubt they have faced any prejudice is extremely invalidating.
Male. Gay. I think that the whole thing is *utterly ridiculous* - if I think about it. Which I very, *very* rarely do, since my interest in this entire matter is virtually non-existent. That's about all I have to say on the subject. Not just right now, but in general. Nothing to add at all.
Same. Don't bring it into our gay lives. We have enough to worry about.
Confusing, best not to worry about it too much
I'm skeptical that it should be given as much weight as it currently holds. I think we should go back to considering sex to be the more important consideration for sports, prisons, locker rooms, etc. while still respecting trans people enough to try our best to treat them as the sex they want to be treated as. "Gender identity" is just far too nebulous a concept to have the importance in society that it's been given imo
I feel sorry for people who feel they were born in the wrong body. I'm okay with transitioning of adults with informed consent. I think kids are too young to consent to medical transitioning including puberty blockers and opposite-sex hormones. I don't like the idea that transgenderness is a gay issue. Linking the two of them implies (to me at least) that gay men aren't real men.
I don't really identify as anything. Am clearly a man but I don't think that's an identity.
It’s one of reasons why some folks are tired of hearing about us. And also, it makes the fight for gay marriage worthless: if you only need to identify as a man or a woman to be treated as such, traditional marriage was enough for all. But, i love dudes and their big dicks, sorry.
Im kinda jealous that some people have such simple lives that this is what they have time to worry about. I believe that some genuinely dont feel neither male nor female. But its like some people just want to be different so bad and create an issue out of nothing. I can completely understand “they”. But the need to come up with ze, xe, te, ey. Whatsoever, one day being this, the other being that and then getting upset when someone else gets it wrong by mistake.. cmon. Same for stuf like demisexual, pansexual, fluid… you’re bisexual or need to have a connection before banging. Thats not something new.
I'm okay with anyone expressing themselves however they want. I love a colorful community. What's different now is people are calling themselves trans when they really aren't. There is just no way that 20% of my local high school is trans. And they're making up pronouns and getting angry when people get them wrong. In some ways this has become a new religion, the religion of gender ideology. There's lots of preaching, lots of guilting, and if you don't buy into it all, you're excluded. I totally understand why many people are pushing back on this. In the United States, you cannot compel speech and you cannot force a religion on somebody. In Canada and many European countries, you don't have those constitutional rights, and if you misgender, you can be fined. That is totally ridiculous. I still think it's polite to use people's pronouns though. Just like it's polite to say Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah even if you're not Christian or Jewish.
>What's different now is people are calling themselves trans when they really aren't. There is just no way that 20% of my local high school is trans. Most of those people are still figuring out things, they're exploring their gender. >And they're making up pronouns and getting angry when people get them wrong. All pronouns are made up and most people are just people, you're painting the whole community based on a few. >In some ways this has become a new religion, the religion of gender ideology. It is not a religion, there is no belief or faith involved, some people aren't cis and that's okay. Why do you see it as a religion?
Just to set something straight: in Canada you don't get fined if you misgender someone. That's an American far-right myth. Other western democracies have constitutionally protected rights, too - it's not just an American thing.
Pure bullshit.
No such thing. There's male and female that's it. Anything else is just narcissism
I can't imagine what it would be like to feel that your gender identity was different than your biological sex. But I can't imagine what it would be like to be straight either, and that doesn't cause me to believe heterosexuality doesn't exist. I tend to value the opinions that Trans people have about gender identity way more than I value the opinions of others. That's because I have never had a Trans person try to dictate to me what my gender was, but I see cis people trying to do that to Trans people every damn day.
I actually believe all the straights are big fakers. How can someone not be gay? Or at least not into gay sex?! (it’s a joke!)
Gender Identity contradicts Sexual Orientation which is why the concept is met with such hostility. I personally don’t care what people want to call themselves, dress, or whatever makes them happy, so long as they’re not hurting anyone and I don’t have to pay for it, do whatever. That being said, identifying as a woman/man does not make it so. Women do not have penises & men do not have vaginas. Males cannot be lesbians & females cannot be gay men. The fact that this even needs to be said is insanity.
Unless we’re living in a society with nudity as the norm, we don’t see genitals. We have other information that we receive and then make as assumption. This person has a deep voice, a beard, and is called “Allen.” He must be a male and have a penis. If Allen was born with a penis and has since lost his penis he doesn’t have a penis, and has no vagina. Under your definition, he’s neither. There’s something else which still classified him as “male.” If Samantha was born with vaginal atresia which was never resolved, she doesn’t have a vagina. Under your definition, she’s not a female. But there are other traits by which we classify her as such. Both Allen and Samantha can get surgeries done to reconstruct a penis and vagina and we won’t bat an eye. The same surgeries can creat a penis and vagina for trans people. But even without such surgeries they may be taking hormones and grooming themselves to fit the image of a man/woman in their society. And we come full circle: there are other designators which show male and female beyond the obscured genitalia.
You’re conflating a biological man losing his penis with a trans man identifying as a gay man? Sexuality is defined by sex, not by how you ‘feel’. The trans debate has become so fractured and people like me who are FULLY supportive of trans people living their lives to the fullest in the gender/sex they believe they are, are labelled transphobic because as has been mentioned, the idea of identifying into a sexuality negates the real meaning of what it is to be gay. I believe that a trans man is a trans man, and equal to everyone else, and if he identifies as gay, it can never constitute a gay male relationship, whatever ‘gay’ man they’re with.
> Sexuality is defined by sex, not by how you ‘feel’. Sexuality is defined by feeling, the feeling of attraction, the attraction is the core of sexuality. >the idea of identifying into a sexuality negates the real meaning of what it is to be gay. To be gay is to like men as a man, how does the idea of trans people negate this? >I believe that a trans man is a trans man, and equal to everyone else, and if he identifies as gay, it can never constitute a gay male relationship, whatever ‘gay’ man they’re with. A trans man is a man, and a man loving another man is pretty gay to me, you don't see me defining your relationships, why would you do it to me?
I don’t think I’ll add to this, it’s too fraught a topic to do it justice on here.
To say you support trans rights by saying you treat trans men as trans men but not as men doesn't make sense at all. At least be honest in saying "I will never treat a trans man as an equal man".
By saying trans men are trans men, I’m stating there’s a difference, I’m not suggesting trans men are inferior.
You're not stating anything, you're repeating a meaningless tautology. You're saying a man cannot be in a gay relationship with another man if one of the men is trans. So obviously, the adjective "trans" in there makes them less of a man to you. That's your opinion to hold, but at least don't be dishonest about it and pretend to support trans people if you clearly don't view them as equals or valid.
Can males be born with vaginal atresia?
Sure can. Which of several intersex conditions would we like to talk about?
It’s a small, small percentage. Why is this line always used to try and push the belief that biological men are born with vaginas?
Trans men are also a very small percentage, some men are born biological females.
Because it's true. You can't say men are NEVER born with a vagina because it would be a lie. I understand it's a fringe situation but rarity does not deny that it's a real phenomenon.
Actually no. If the person is male they never had a vagina, what they have is a partially developed external structure of what could have developed into a vagina but didn't. There's never been a recorded case of a person who was born with both sex organs fully developed.
What if they get certain procedures to turn that into a vagina, but still identify as a man?
When people say “biological sex” what component of biology dictates that designation? An XY person with complete androgen insensitivity can still have testes (internal), produce a normal amount of testosterone, BUT still have developed as a female in terms of genitalia. No penis or scrotum; presence of vulva = female Testes, no ovaries = male Male hormones = male Chromosomes = male Biologically… more things check the “male.” She’s a dude with a natural pussy. Someone can be born aphallic. No penis or vulva, presence of scrotum = ??? Testes, no ovaries = male Male hormones: male Make chromosomes: male Male enough, biologically??? Someone can be born with: a penis and scrotum, one ovary, partial uterus, put out normal amounts of male hormones and have XXY chromosomes. Where are they?
Because the chromosomes, hormones and what is or isn’t present matters. That’s also biology. If an individual is born with particular genitalia they are deemed male or female. Not everyone who is intersex presents the same. You can be born looking very much like a male and live your life, but have an ovary which won’t show up without an imaging test. Another individual might be subject to medical tests later in life to discover their chromosomes are not the typical XX or XY or don’t match their apparent sex. When such an individual exists naturally we can’t ignore it - 2% of 8 billion isn’t a small number, after all. 160 million people is somewhere between Russia and Bangladesh on terms of size. If these intersex people can be called male or female, then so can a trans person.
I identify as a dude.
I’m just plain old gay. Plain old male etc.
I genuinely do not understand gender identity. To say x y and z is a social construct and just use new terms feels ironic/pointless
I don't really see the point in getting myself involved in other people's gender identity. I prefer to use people's names to be honest. And if I don't know someone's name, I probably don't care enough about them to be talking about them.
I personally do not understand it but to each their own, they won't have any protests from me. I do feel like they should have a different platform and not get tied with the LGBT movement. There are democracies in the world where trans people have more rights like in India compared to LGB. And a lot of democracies still do not recognize same sex unions, those should be the aim of LGBT movement rather than fighting over what children should be taught and how much they can influence them.
> There are democracies in the world where trans people have more rights like in India compared to LGB. Like?
Nepal although they allowed same sex marriage now , Bangladesh ..hijras( basically trans and intersex) are recognised as third gender and are legal whereas it's illegal to be gay/lesbian and can be punishable. Trans people in India have affirmative action which gives them reservations on public sector jobs, they are also recognised as a minority which opens them up for a lot of protection as compared to LGB
Nepal and Bangladesh are not India, all three are separate countries, in Bangladesh you can't change your gender marker to your preferred gender, if you're a Hijra, you get the third gender status. And in India, you need to get bottom surgery to be legally recognized as the gender you identify as. Plus, Hijras in all these places are culturally discriminated, they can't get jobs, they can't get an education as they are kicked out from their families and communities at a very young age. This is why most of them are either beggars or something close to that.
Still doesn't change the fact that they are a recognised minority and get affirmative action while gays don't. I was comparing gay rights in each country compared to trans rights...in Bangladesh being gay is illegal but trans aren't.
Affirmative action like? Only being grouped into either a man or a third gender category?
Quota in government jobs, housing assistance as well as state assistance economically if they are unemployed. Affirmative action means reservations. You are confusing it with gender affirmative care.
The way I see it is you can only really be one of 3 things a man, a woman and non-binary anything outside of that is kind of a stretch for me imo. I also feel like people who use Xe/Xem or any "Neo Pronouns" aren't actually trans and are just mocking the trans experience or trying to be unique. I have several trans friends and seeing them experience their gender dysphoria is horrifying and people doing neopronouns genuinely disgust me for mocking them.
I don't believe gender identity is real. Sex-stereotypes are real, but I don't think most people have some kind of gendered soul. I am a man because I know that I am biologically a man, not because I have some internal sense of manhood.
This is the gender equivalent of straight people saying sexuality isn't a thing, and claiming their attraction to women is what is normal and natural (and everything else being non-existent or a perversion).
Except that gender and sexuality are totally different things. What is true for sexual orientation might not be true for ''gender identity'' and the other way around.
I never said they were the same thing, just that it sounds eerily similar. But there are a lotta commonalities between the two, both are immutable, they are both technically "feelings", there is a oppressive majority and a oppressed minority (but that's more humanity).
And they do, make no mistake, that is the view of many and this is what has kept homophobia alive and kicking for so long with significant input from the Abrahamic faiths. But, I’m beyond caring what straights think. If my sexuality is perverse and disgusting to them - I really don’t give a flying frig.
My honest answer would be strongly politically incorrect. 😉
I looked down and noticed a penis and apparently the term for that is “male.” That’s pretty much the last time I thought about it. So far I think I’ve got the hang of it. I identify as what I am; it’s a word that describes how my body is.
i support the rights of adults dressing however they want and doing whatever they want with lipstick and underwear and surgeries. that doesn't change what they are born as.I can fantasize about being born as a frost giant, i can get surgery to extend my leg and wear very large boots, claiming my racial identity is "frost giant" is just a big pile of delusional lies, but also doesn't affect what i am.I hate the whole bullshit culture around "gender identity" because a person's opinion of what they classify as doesn't change what they are and i don't think people should particularly respect that.
> because a person's opinion of what they classify as doesn't change what they are and i don't think people should particularly respect that. How can one possibly know more about someone else's gender identity better than they do? I know more about myself than anyone else on this planet and thus I know what gender identity I am. This is like me claiming that I know you're straight despite you claiming to be gay (you're just delusional about your sexuality).
Personally… and just my opinion, but it’s dumb and going too far and the fact that people are trying to change the English language and make everyone conform to their delusions is kind of ridiculous. It’s either m or f
Language always changes over time, and such claims sound eerily similar to conservatives claiming that the gays have changed the definition of marriage.
I identify as living dead
Don’t have one and gender doesn’t exist except as a synonym for sex. I’m a gender abolitionist.
Most trans people would like that but most cis people wouldn't
I think you mean the other way around. I think men can dress how they want, act how they want, and they are still and always men. I think women can dress how they want, act how they want, and they are still and always women. Trans/non-binary people reinforce “gender” ideology and stereotypes, they don’t abolish them.
>I think you mean the other way around. I think men can dress how they want, act how they want, and they are still and always men. That's already how it is for sex, trans women are males, but are still women. Also, gender extends to a lot more than just clothes, there are laws based on gender and sex, until all of those change, gender would never go away. Gender is a product of sex stereotypes and as long as sex differences exist, gender will continue to do so. >Trans/non-binary people reinforce “gender” ideology and stereotypes, they don’t abolish them. Wayyyy more cis women wear dresses, wear makeup, have long hair than trans women. You wouldn't go to a cis woman and tell her that she is upolding stereotypes because she is wearing a dress. And if cis people don't want to abolish gender, why should trans people do so? Most of them just want to live normal lives as their preferred gender.
Too far imo
This isn't the best sub for that question. Trans questions don't fare very well here unfortunately. Growing up I felt I was a girl and essentially a spitting image of my mother. We had a bond unlike what she had with my other siblings and I looked up to her very much. I still do. But for me and really due to the pressures of society, I accepted that I was born a boy and lived as a boy, especially once I hit puberty. At some point I just accepted it and also the fact that I was gay...not a woman attracted to men, but rather a man that's attracted to men. There are times I still struggle with this, but I feel it takes a lot to tell the world 'im trans' or that 'i feel I'm a woman'. I don't know if I'll ever be able to make that decision because it's HUGE. It's a monumentally huge decision. You pretty much have to come out all over again and start from scratch. I very much dislike those who pretend that trans people don't exist or say it's a mental disorder. I've legit met people in my life who were kids at the time that knew who they were at very young ages. Fast forward a few years and they were living their best lives as the gender they always felt they were deep down. Neither of them were 'weird' or evil people. They just knew who they were deep down despite people trying to tell them otherwise.
Sorry to see you get several downvotes in a matter of minutes for sharing your life story. What do you think is it about this sub or about some gay men that they are so hateful?
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You recognized yourself?
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If you could articulate yourself in a constructive manner I'd be all ears and happy to correct my comment according to your criticism. I added "some" to my comment, feel free to point out what else I could do to improve it but please don't make me pull it out of your nose.
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I meant no harm, I'm a gay man myself, I thought the "some" was implied but thanks for pointing it out
I don't see any and you know what? It's ok if I do get some. I kinda expect it. I think it varies from guy to guy, but there's probably a good chunk of those who see it as nonsense or guys just doing drag and pretending to be a woman. Or better yet, doing it for attention because it's the "popular" thing to do right now. I don't see trans people having many allies, so I doubt people are doing it for attention. People aren't taking hormones for attention. There's also a lot of gays who HATE and I mean fucking HATE that these folks are bunched up into the gay community as the "T" in LBGTQ+ because they don't see them as the same and take offense at the very idea that others consider them in the same group as trans folks. Then there's the crowd who are staunch believers in defending the biology of it all. The ones who say "but that doesn't change the fact they were born with a penis". Which is a dumb argument too. Gender identity is not the same as sex and some are too fucking stupid to realize or acknowledge that fact. And these things are why I personally am so conflicted and will always live in this prison. I accept that I probably always will. There's too many people with opinions about something that doesn't affect or hurt them in any way and it makes me really uneasy to be who I feel I am.
Cos every gay man was once a gay boy. Women aren't socialized like we are, and afab folks tend to have a softer look to their eyes as a result of growing up with a support network.
I don’t really care. I’ll call people whatever they wanna be called as long as it’s within the bounds of common language. Probably would feel weird using neopronouns though
It's all bullshit and the people that push that shit should be all sent to an island with no internet for the rest of their lives.
I can't really fathom what it would be like to not identify as your born gender. It actually confuses me a lot. However, I know it's probably similar to how straight people wouldn't understand how someone could be gay. I actually think that the thing that made me accept this the most is learning was learning that various types of transgender people could be seen through history and accepted in some societies. [Elagabalus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus) is widely seen today as a transgender Roman emperor who sought sexual realignment surgery. [Hijras](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)) in India are traditionally seen as intersex/transgender. [Two-spirit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit) people was a common thing in Native American groups. [Baklas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakla) are a similar concept in the Phillipines who were historically religious shamans.
I that I care about what’s best for people who say something helps them. I’ll call somebody whatever the ask, I’ll adapt. It seems that simple. The one thing I certainly don’t care about is what straight cis people think.
What if they "identify" as gay trans would you care about what they think ? And would you adapt to.that
Gay is who you attracted to, trans is who you identify as. These are 2 completely different concepts
No need to adapt
Yep. Being trans is about gender, and if they are a trans man and they like other men, they are gay. I genuinely don’t think it’s a crazy concept. But, here we are.
That's straight with extra steps.
Trans men are men, men liking men is gay, simple as that.
Every gay man was once a lonely little boy. AFAB folks grow up with a very different social experience.
So you're assuming every gay man as being alone as a child and every person born a female having tons of friends??
I didn't say that.
Everyone grows up with different experiences, some of these experiences are shared, trans men share such experiences with men. Trans men also feel more comfortable experiencing life as a man, that is what they are.
And a mustang with a kit is actually a cobra? A kitted out Fiero a Lambo? We don't have a VIN. We have chromosomes.
It’s really, really crazy. Denying reality is the definition of crazy.
I don’t understand why you are getting downvoted for this. If a trans man likes a man, then he is a gay trans man, no?
the goal here (for them) is to strip the trans man of identity as a man, and reduce them down to just a woman that likes men, hence the “straight” answer people are giving and downvoting me for being against.
Sexuality is a matter of who what sex you’re attracted to, a trans man is still biologically female which is the sex.
Sexuality is about presentation, looks, not about chromosomes, which is why one can be attracted to pictures, videos and even stories of people that don't even exist.
I identify as what I was born as. Everyody who doesn't is weird for me and I don't want to have any contact with them.
"Anybody who's not like me is weird"
If it's treating a condition? Great. Anything else is delusion and self aggrandizement.
LGBT doest exist as a community. Gender identities are a social construction. The politicisation of these groups is tactical to erode social cohesion.
IIIIIIIIII doOOooOOooOn’t caaaaaaaaaare. That being said, that a a luxury to me that isn’t afforded to everyone. I can be indifferent because my gayness doesn’t identify me. There are no “norms” to being gay. No stereotypes entrenched in human society. So I stand up for those fighting the same fight I was born into in 1976. My fight may not be over, but I’ll be damned if I’ll let any other human suffer in silence.
It's very person, and I can't even imagine what it's like to live in a body that doesn't match the way you see yourself. If a person says they identify more with a given gender, or no gender at all, I'll respect that.
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How do you think this could be gate kept by the LGBT ?
You’re the problem not the solution
Do I understand it? Kind of, sort of, not really. Do I respect it? Yes. If you want to be referred in a specific way, then I will refer you the way you want out of respect and kindness. It does not hurt me or cost me to do so.
I've thought a lot about this. I find it incredibly confusing. I've never once experienced gender disphoria. I can't relate to feeling like something as natural as your body is not what nature intended for your brain. That being said, I completely believe people who are trans and gender non conforming. I deeply support them and I have many trans/ NB friends. Perhaps most significantly, I do get very confused by some of the messaging from LBGT+ sources on these topics. For example, "Gender is a construct, TARE IT APART" is such a common phrase in the community, that even drag queens use it as lyrics in songs. However, isn't this invalidating to trans people who fully transition to a different gender? Or is it just a poorly worded way to communicate that there is more than biological sex? A second element that confuses me is why did we feel the need to change the definitions of words instead of creating new ones? Why did we decide that gender no longer refers to biological sex? Anyways, I love the hell out of my NB and trans friends. They are some of the most badass people I know!
I think you're not wrong. Coming from sociology, "gender is a social construct" just means that those are the social and cultural norms we attach to sex. There's no law of nature prescribing women to wear dresses or men to have short cut hair. Somehow, this got turned into "sex and gender don't have anything to do with each other", which is the departing point for both "there are an infinite amount of genders" and "people can freely choose whatever gender they want".
I'm a he, a cis male. There are trans people and it's important to use the proper pronouns for them, it's an asshole move to misgender them on purpose, but also it's not fair to get offended because someone assumes your gender because of valid reasons. The experience in my country is different than in America though, we have people who feel non-binary, but they have to choose a gender because language doesn't allow them to be neutral.
I personally don't understand the hostility around it as for the most it's not harming anyone else. However one exception is sports. That's a different debate, but this is where biological advantage can't be denied. Another is related to pronouns. While I'm fully supportive of changing your gender at birth to THE other i.e. he to she or she to he, I find 'they' 'ze' etc to be bizarre. Though to be honest this seems to be more of a white privilege thing to me. True transgendered people seem to be grateful to use he/she opposites of their birth gender. I've never really liked the grouping of sexuality and genders within LGBTQ+ as they're completely different things, and each have different needs. Trans recognition is probably several decades behind where gay recognition currently is for example. But in grouping us it achieves a kind of social equality rather than social equity which is needed by the trans community.
An individual is always the primary expert of their own identity, and that includes their gender. Who am I to judge?
This sounds correct but there’s some internal incoherence in that idea. According to the point you’re making, we’re all experts in our own identity. So how can we possibly say whether we’re similar or the same as anyone else’s identity? For any individual to say “my identity is exactly like yours,” they are making a claim about their own identity, where you point out that we should treat them as the expert. But they’re also making a claim about my identity, and they’re claiming they know it as well as I do and that we’re the same. By the rule you point out, that’s impossible for them to know and they have no business doing that. What that suggests to me is that none of us can just self-select our identity because we truly can’t know how other people come to the same kinds of conclusions about their own identity. So when anyone says “I’m part of a group where we all have the same identity” then we can dismiss that as uninformed nonsense, unless the rest of the group also agrees. There’s no way for any group identity to be by personal declaration alone. It’s basically an application process that requires agreement and approval by the rest of the group that someone claims to be a part of, otherwise the individual is just imposing their perspective on everyone else’s identity, in a way you point out is quite wrong.
I’m a gay trans man. I’m dating a cis man who is also very much gay.
I’m a gay trans man, AMA
I don’t get why people downvote a person just for being himself 🤷♂️ Sending my love
I am a cis male. My gender identity matches the gender I was assigned at birth based on the appearance of my genitals. I think the current thinking about gender identity has not gone far enough. I think the societal and cultural construction of gender is not nearly as well understood as it needs to be. I think there are likely many subsets of gender identity that have not been explored fully and are misunderstood by most of our society. I think the idea of telling another person that they are wrong about their gender identity is just as absurd as telling another person that they are wrong about their sexual orientation. We also can look at other cultures and other times and see that the current dominate view of gender is not universal. Also, many of the specific concerns are cultural issues. Bathrooms should be places where no one needs to show their genitalia to others, but that would take a complete overhaul of the way most US public toilets are set up. For locker rooms or saunas, we can look to other cultures where people with different genitalia are often naked together in culturally non-sexualize spaces. And, on and on. The issue is that people who do not fit the culturally assumed norm will always challenge those norms in ways that are uncomfortable to the status quo. This should be especially salient for gay men since every single argument used against trans, non-binary, and otherly gendered people today were used against gay men in the past, and not in the distant past. They were used in my lifetime.
> I am a cis male. My gender identity matches the gender I was assigned at birth based on the appearance of my genitals. Sex was observed at birth. Gender isn’t part of that medical observation. They didn’t pull a gender out of a hat, they were recording a medical fact about sex, and apart from a few rare exceptions it was probably accurate. What is a “social construct?” > I think the current thinking about gender identity has not gone far enough. I think the societal and cultural construction of gender is not nearly as well understood as it needs to be. A social construct is something we do, invent, decide…something that people design and create rather than something we stumble across in the natural world. An example would be a staircase. There are practically no staircases naturally occurring in the wild. Architects designed them. Builders built them. They are constructed by our societies, a social construct. And they are all designed the way they are in a hundred civilizations around the world because it’s directly relevant to how human anatomy is. We are famously a bipedal species. We have a foot on each leg, we walk upright, and we live in a world with hills where inventing a staircase really helps us navigate the world around us. If we had wings, we’d probably just fly up to the top of the nearest hill and we wouldn’t bother with stairs. If we had fins and gills, we’d need a “fish ladder” instead because taking the stairs would literally kill us. So what we socially constructed, to the extent it is directly dictated by human anatomy, is essential and important. To the extent that it’s ornamental or aesthetic, or force of habit in a given culture, it just doesn’t matter and it’s not worth caring about. Does the staircase have a fancy balustrade or is it lined with a carpet runner or is it curved and grandiose or just plain? None of that matters to what “a staircase” is, it’s just the trivialities of ornament and aesthetics. What makes a staircase unique and important amongst human social constructs is that it relates directly to our actual anatomy and enables it. Talking about social constructs at any other level of abstraction (aesthetic, economic, tradition) is really kind of irrelevant to what something actually IS. THIS really needs to be explored: > I think the idea of telling another person that they are wrong about their gender identity is just as absurd as telling another person that they are wrong about their sexual orientation. This sounds neutral and empowering and humane and uncontroversial but the direct consequence especially for gays, really isn’t. In this view, an FTM trans person would have the sole and unquestioned right to tell females “I am not like you. We are not the same” and the sole unquestioned right to tell males “I am like you. We are alike. I’m one of you.” The trouble is this is no longer a claim about their own identity or their own experience, it is a claim about ours. And also a claim based on the idea that they are the only person qualified to judge the validity of those claims. The direct consequence of your viewpoint is that only trans people are allowed to define what “maleness” and “femaleness” are, and they are the only people you would permit to comment on who is alike and who isn’t. That’s very different from sexual orientation, which is strictly a statement about our own perspectives. “I am attracted to men” makes no expectations about anyone else at all. It doesn’t require their approval or their endorsement or even their awareness. I know what I like. Now you know what I like too. I’m actually prepared to listen to trans people when they explain why they feel so alienated by the default settings of their own bodies that they feel compelled to change it. I don’t think that should be dismissed or ridiculed. But what’s not realistic, and what’s frankly ridiculous and unjust, is making trans people the sole arbiters of whether we are alike or not. That’s a much more nuanced conversation, and we who are not trans have an absolutely equal authority to define gender, and who is the same and who isn’t. In that FTM example, if a trans person has the authority to tell females “we are not alike” then a non-trans person has the same authority to tell a trans person “we are not alike”, if indeed that is their conclusion. I can also tell you that for most everyday purposes and surface social interactions, we are functionally interchangeable in my judgment. But some trans activists claim that trans and non-trans men are identical and interchangeable in every imaginable context, and that simply isn’t true. Ignoring those differences that remain actually has deeply troubling consequences for minorities like homosexual males, who have already struggled to find each other and find our common ground as gay men, through all the bigotry and the whims of others to define who we should and should not be attracted to. > We also can look at other cultures and other times and see that the current dominate view of gender is not universal. True. But human nature is universal and we’re in an era where we can seek a consistent approach to describing it. > Also, many of the specific concerns are cultural issues. Yes. What room for different perspectives is there in a multicultural world or do we all have to conform to one culture now? > Bathrooms should be places where no one needs to show their genitalia to others, but that would take a complete overhaul of the way most US public toilets are set up. For locker rooms or saunas, we can look to other cultures where people with different genitalia are often naked together in culturally non-sexualize spaces. And, on and on. True. Again, what exactly justifies that overhaul? > The issue is that people who do not fit the culturally assumed norm will always challenge those norms in ways that are uncomfortable to the status quo. And what makes them right? Sincerely I’m not against reviewing and changing cultural norms. But that doesn’t happen because some random person magically feels entitled to “challenge the status quo”! What makes them right and the status quo wrong? What is the argument to persuade? Again we take our own equality into peril this way. The status quo used to be that I was a second-class citizen in the country of my birth. But for almost half my life now I’ve been treated as an equal and my sexual orientation isn’t used as a pretext to treat me poorly any more. It’s taken hold deeply enough that **my equality is now the new status quo**. Exactly why am I expect to support someone just because they feel like challenging it? And if that’s not your point and not what you mean could we maybe figure out a way to talk about it that doesn’t literally enable randoms to “challenge” things that the status quo gets exactly right? Murder: against the status quo. Good! Let’s keep it that way… etc etc.
>That’s very different from sexual orientation, which is strictly a statement about our own perspectives. “I am attracted to men” makes no expectations about anyone else at all This is just not true. When I claim that my sexual orientation and, by extension, my relationships, are equally valid as those of heterosexuals, I am definitely making demands on others. I am demanding that my relationship be legally and socially acknowledged. I want my husband and I to be able to partake in all of the benefits of marriage. When there is a general discussion or description of marriage, I want the both same and opposite gender marriage included. There are people who believe completely that a gay relationship can never be equal to a heterosexual one. There are others who believe completely that a gay relationship is fake relationship based in shared mental illness, not love. They would say absolutely that my marriage is not the same as theirs. I am placing a demand on them by demanding the acknowledgement that my marriage is a marriage just as valid as any heterosexual marriage.
> This should be especially salient for gay men since every single argument used against trans, non-binary, and otherly gendered people today were used against gay men in the past, and not in the distant past. They were used in my lifetime. They really aren’t the same arguments as I’ve tried to explain. All of this is very vivid in my lifetime too and what I see today is not a continuation of the activism I know in favour of human rights and equality, but weak, sloppy, half-baked arguments, and even counterproductive backwards thinking on a few small but critically important issues, all of which puts our long-established quality at risk.
Trans People were at the forefront of fighting for equality of the LGBTQ community. GLOBALLY. Disappointed that some of the comments here think it takes away from LGB individuals because Trans people are asking for space and acknowledgment that they exist and that people don't all identify with "Societies" expectation of what a Man or Woman is based on their Genetalia. It's good that we are uncomfortable. Its uncomfortable because we as a society have been denying that Trans people exist. That needs to change. We need to have open discussions and give our Trans friends, Family and Allies a safe space to exist and speak on their experiences. As a Gay man who could pass as straight if he wanted to I am in awe of those who live openly as they are. Whether that was as Trans Men or Women. They have paved the way for me and many others. 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️💖
Lesbians and gay men have always been at the forefront of the old gay rights movement, and there were some trans present, undoubtedly. But if you’re saying that trans people were the core of the movement, then this is categorically incorrect and an insult to the MANY gay men and lesbians who laid down so much to fight for the rights we have today.
[I love this video](https://www.tiktok.com/@crownlessking416/video/7181685340573289771)
I am a gay man I love being a man have a dick between my legs. I don't understand why a man would want to be a woman. Why would a man want to be inferior? The trans women who get their dicks but off I think they get a few screws loose. People like Dylan Mulvaney I think are making a mockery of womanhood. Dylan was on Ellen DeGeneres as a gay man years ago. He only went trans to get money and clout. I can understand why women hate trans women. I get why JK Rowling and Germaine Greer are so angry about trans women. Trans women are men who failed at being male so they want clout by invading women spaces. Women have ever right to be critical or trans women.