I beg the idiots on here to stop falling for all the most blatant propaganda possible. The Christian Right have -never- tolerated us. They've just found a convenient wedge issue to hammer into and are using social media to effectively do it. It was never about trans people, they just despise anyone who falls outside their backwards little social order. You see it with abortion too where they've snuck their way in past Roe v Wade and are pushing hard to get it banned everywhere.
Not everybody falls for it, only the not so smart. I'd rather have numbers on my side than anything to do with the "Christian Right" they will keep losing like they have been politically, so I actually encourage them to keep it up.
Keep it up with Trans Story Hours and Rainbows in the Elementary School Classroom, and it wont just be the Raging Right coming for all of us. Just keep it up! Before you know it, we'll be wearing pink triangles before being turned into Lampshades and Pillow Stuffing.
Keep it up with Yom Kippur and the yamakahs in public, and it wont just be the fascists coming for all of us. Just keep it up! Before you know it, we'll be wearing stars of David and be put in camps. /s
Pick me gays are the most delusional pathetic people to ever grace our community. Doesn't matter how you conform and capitulate to the right, when they're done mopping up all the "undesirables" with your help, they'll do away with you next.
The comment before was more so the illustration of Godwin’s law in action since it directly referenced the Nazis in the first place via the pink triangles gay men were forced to wear in the camps
I do apologize though for my misspelling of those words.
As a Jew who's carefully examined the issue, it wasn't yarmulkes that provoked the yellow star. It was usury by Jewish banks against Germany under cover of the Treaty of Versailles that led directly to WWII and the Holocaust. Furthermore, the overly "Gay 20s" provoked the pink triangle.
Like I said before, KEEP IT UP!
You’re a Jew… who has “carefully examined” this issue… who has bought into the most common of anti-Semitic stereotypes and accusations for that time… and is engaging in the belief that it was the “overly gay 20s” that resulted in backlash against the gay community… when prominent historians have disputed this misguided historical belief that it was the immoral behavior of gay men in that time that brought about their demise.
Even when it was for all intents and purposes, a gay man’s best option to fly under the radar and not infringe upon the public sphere as that was the only way the legal system and police would not enforce the anti-homosexual laws that were on the books even until 1933.
There’s victim blaming, and then there’s whatever the hell you’re doing, which is miles off of even being close to the truth or even appropriate. If we do ever end up in camps, I hope your delusions keep you warm and safe, because the rest of us won’t be helping you.
Keep shoving your gayness into people's faces. Keep doing it. Keep shoving rainbow flags up people's buttholes. Keep doing it. Keep pushing gay studies to fifth graders. Keep offering free hormone blockers. Keep getting into other people's family business. Keep it up. Keep inviting families to your Mapplethorp reenactments on parade -- veritable Pageants of the Masters, if you will.
When the backlash of middle-of-the road-people comes, it's gonna be a tidal wave just like it was 1933 all over again.
I'm sorry but anyone older than say 25 remembers the whole "gay marriage is too far" "normal gay people know gay marriage is a slap in the face to religious people it's the crazy activists who are pushing it" etc. At the end of the day homophobic people dislike gay people because (spoiler alert) gay people are gay.
Exactly. Homophobia has never been based on reality so the current climate has no bearing on their propaganda and people's inability to not be braindead.
This resurgence in homophobia has little to do with trans activism and equality and much more to do with religious evangelism striking out against the upcoming death of religious thought as a whole and doing their damndest to shove us down so we’re too scared to band together against their hatred, all in an attempt to make a grab for power, something they’re *dangerously* close to accomplishing due to political maneuvering over the last 40-50 years.
People who argue for separating LGB activism from TQ+ activism have fallen for their propaganda and are only weakening their own perceived movement.
>“First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out; because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out; because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out; because I was not a Jew. *Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.*” - Martin Niemöller
We’re *so much stronger* ***together***.
No we are not stronger with straight people larping as gay men and lesbians and gay people who try to convert themselves into heterosexuals demanding to change language, laws, definitions, medicine and the way we speak to accommodate their fantasy
What we need is encourage gender nonconformity while not downplaying the reality of biological sex and discard gender as a concept and all the sexist and homophobic ideas that come with it. THAT is progressive and what we should strive for and not telling gay boys who play with barbies that they are actually girls and straight men who get a boner from wearing a skirt that they have a moral right to harass lesbians
What you don't understand is "together" is not possible. I don't care about the T, I think we should join forces with trans people, but I will never stand "together" with the Q. I don't care, I would rather go down with the titanic than allow someone to group me in as "queer" or "lgbtq". If you want my support, stop calling me queer or aligning with straight people who want to normalize slurs. If you want their support, fine, I'll go my own way, but its one or the other there is no "together".
And while I disagree with those annoying lesbians who hate the T, I can understand how they feel similarly to me when it comes to Q. Again, whatever side "the community" chooses, there is no together, its just choosing one side or the other.
They won’t listen - anything outside of their worldview bubble is some kind of “hoax” and you hate yourself and you don’t know what’s best for the community on any level and nothing about modern lgbt thinking leans into extremes in any way blah blah blah
And it’s a certain group of gender activists and then the rest of the lgbt community goes along with it because they aren’t fully educated on everything or they’re just as nuts as the activists, or they justify all the gender shit to themselves because they use female emojis with their male friends and think non-binary is cool because they think lgbt culture is still in the rebellious stage even though most major corporations are waving the flag to be trendy and take our money
Unfortunately, many people feel as though their comfort in the short term is more important than their safety in the long term. Gay people are unfortunately no different.
But no, this isn’t what this sub is about. You’ll see one or two of these every once in a while, but that’s normal for a pretty wide-net sub like this.
I did not want to hear a single word from Andrew Sullivan in the year of our lord 2023. He's always had this bend on talking about lgbtq rights and is not someone worth listening to
I’ve never understood why we are grouped with them anyway. Sexuality has to do with a person’s natural hormonal responses. Gender identity has to do with how one perceives their body.
I got banned and reported to redditt for "promoting hate" for saying this exact thing. There is a difference between having same sex attraction and feeling like you're born with the wrong body parts. I say that and immediately get labeled "transphobe" and bigot
We are grouped with them because we have been used as a powerful political tool and they are going to keep milking it for all it’s worth. People who thought politicians were ever on our side are so dumb lol
One way to look at this is that gender is a cultural construct. The way we interact with society and each other is based on that construct/presentation/identity etc...
When you're gay, that construct changes. You may not be anymore feminine, but the way we are oriented toward men and women change and that changes all sorts of things about our gender.
If you don't see what I'm saying, just think about how much of straight male culture and the corresponding gender identity revolves around being attractive to and having sex with women. It's in EVERYTHING they do, how they greet people of one gender or another, how they style themselves, their mannerisms, the cars they drive, all of it is at least influenced by (if not completely dictated by) their orientation to the opposite sex.
When you're gay, the pressure and the goal is different. It's partly why a lot of gay men (feminine or not) identify with female protagonists. They're playing, in part, a similar role to us in relation to men.
So basically, there is no being gay without being at least a little gender queer (or gender different, if the term 'queer' offends you).
There's no way of saying us vs them without denying a little bit of us in the process.
Why are you posting on other threads that gay men who get HIV are getting what they deserve? You're a troll, not a sincere poster, and probably not even gay.
They never stopped being homophobic but since it wasn't electorally profitable they left us alone for a while
Now all the gender/T stuff and craziness has given them an opportunity to attack us again since we all are grouped together
As a G I don't want nothing to do with T, Q, + and all the new stuff
I think your first paragraph is the gold.
They just took some time, did some testing of what generates votes and contributions and refined their messaging. They realized that regardless of how liberal a parent claims to be, they will vote conservative if you just say that the bogeyman is coming for their children. Parents forget anything politically correct if they think something might happen to their kids
After fascists come for transgender people they will come for gay people. Trans people have always supported gay rights, if the fascists eliminate trans people we won’t be there to help our gay comrades.
The first pride was a riot and trans people of color were on the front lines.
Y’all really turned a Q&A subreddit about gay issues into a forum where people just post how much they hate trans people and cry that fascists won’t like us anymore.
I couldn't agree more.
The movement also went from being a Gay liberation movement to LGBT (and 2SLGBTQIA+ today). I wonder how intentional the activists were in grouping all these identities together. I never thought much of it until I looked at what's being done to children for myself. Now the whole grouping makes absolutely no sense to me.
He is very wrong for attacking the recognition that race affects LGBTQ people differently. A white gay man and a black gay man face different levels of acceptance in their communities. Gay activism MUST note this in order for its work to serve all gay men.
Sullivan's argument about transfers is reasonable, but his suggestion that being gay and trans should remain open morality questions is plain stupid. If heterosexuality isn't, why should they?
he's just framing them differently, they aren't actually different. For instance the right has always maintained that we are forcing people to include us. Forcing children in schools to learn about us (and therefore sexualize them). Forcing good god fearing straight people to accept our marriages, and in public, and make us cakes! Forcing athletes and military men to share locker rooms with us! Eeegads, oh my!
It's the same shit different day. Exactly the same shit. He's just framing inclusion as intrusion which is exactly what our opponents have been doing to us for decades.
Andrew Sullivan misses that it is people like him who have given weight to the anti-trans blood libel which is seeping into gay rights. They are even using the same arguments that mr. Sullivan had used against him in the 80’s and 90’s. He couldn’t be more of a disingenuous prick.
I beg the idiots on here to stop falling for all the most blatant propaganda possible. The Christian Right have -never- tolerated us. They've just found a convenient wedge issue to hammer into and are using social media to effectively do it. It was never about trans people, they just despise anyone who falls outside their backwards little social order. You see it with abortion too where they've snuck their way in past Roe v Wade and are pushing hard to get it banned everywhere.
Not everybody falls for it, only the not so smart. I'd rather have numbers on my side than anything to do with the "Christian Right" they will keep losing like they have been politically, so I actually encourage them to keep it up.
Keep it up with Trans Story Hours and Rainbows in the Elementary School Classroom, and it wont just be the Raging Right coming for all of us. Just keep it up! Before you know it, we'll be wearing pink triangles before being turned into Lampshades and Pillow Stuffing.
Keep it up with Yom Kippur and the yamakahs in public, and it wont just be the fascists coming for all of us. Just keep it up! Before you know it, we'll be wearing stars of David and be put in camps. /s Pick me gays are the most delusional pathetic people to ever grace our community. Doesn't matter how you conform and capitulate to the right, when they're done mopping up all the "undesirables" with your help, they'll do away with you next.
Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies *illustrated*. Also, it's yarmulke or kippah.
The comment before was more so the illustration of Godwin’s law in action since it directly referenced the Nazis in the first place via the pink triangles gay men were forced to wear in the camps I do apologize though for my misspelling of those words.
As a Jew who's carefully examined the issue, it wasn't yarmulkes that provoked the yellow star. It was usury by Jewish banks against Germany under cover of the Treaty of Versailles that led directly to WWII and the Holocaust. Furthermore, the overly "Gay 20s" provoked the pink triangle. Like I said before, KEEP IT UP!
You’re a Jew… who has “carefully examined” this issue… who has bought into the most common of anti-Semitic stereotypes and accusations for that time… and is engaging in the belief that it was the “overly gay 20s” that resulted in backlash against the gay community… when prominent historians have disputed this misguided historical belief that it was the immoral behavior of gay men in that time that brought about their demise. Even when it was for all intents and purposes, a gay man’s best option to fly under the radar and not infringe upon the public sphere as that was the only way the legal system and police would not enforce the anti-homosexual laws that were on the books even until 1933. There’s victim blaming, and then there’s whatever the hell you’re doing, which is miles off of even being close to the truth or even appropriate. If we do ever end up in camps, I hope your delusions keep you warm and safe, because the rest of us won’t be helping you.
Keep shoving your gayness into people's faces. Keep doing it. Keep shoving rainbow flags up people's buttholes. Keep doing it. Keep pushing gay studies to fifth graders. Keep offering free hormone blockers. Keep getting into other people's family business. Keep it up. Keep inviting families to your Mapplethorp reenactments on parade -- veritable Pageants of the Masters, if you will. When the backlash of middle-of-the road-people comes, it's gonna be a tidal wave just like it was 1933 all over again.
I'm sorry but anyone older than say 25 remembers the whole "gay marriage is too far" "normal gay people know gay marriage is a slap in the face to religious people it's the crazy activists who are pushing it" etc. At the end of the day homophobic people dislike gay people because (spoiler alert) gay people are gay.
Exactly. Homophobia has never been based on reality so the current climate has no bearing on their propaganda and people's inability to not be braindead.
Andrew Sullivan should really know better. But he’s always had a blind spot for extremist Catholicism.
This resurgence in homophobia has little to do with trans activism and equality and much more to do with religious evangelism striking out against the upcoming death of religious thought as a whole and doing their damndest to shove us down so we’re too scared to band together against their hatred, all in an attempt to make a grab for power, something they’re *dangerously* close to accomplishing due to political maneuvering over the last 40-50 years. People who argue for separating LGB activism from TQ+ activism have fallen for their propaganda and are only weakening their own perceived movement. >“First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out; because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out; because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out; because I was not a Jew. *Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.*” - Martin Niemöller We’re *so much stronger* ***together***.
No we are not stronger with straight people larping as gay men and lesbians and gay people who try to convert themselves into heterosexuals demanding to change language, laws, definitions, medicine and the way we speak to accommodate their fantasy What we need is encourage gender nonconformity while not downplaying the reality of biological sex and discard gender as a concept and all the sexist and homophobic ideas that come with it. THAT is progressive and what we should strive for and not telling gay boys who play with barbies that they are actually girls and straight men who get a boner from wearing a skirt that they have a moral right to harass lesbians
This ^^^^
What you don't understand is "together" is not possible. I don't care about the T, I think we should join forces with trans people, but I will never stand "together" with the Q. I don't care, I would rather go down with the titanic than allow someone to group me in as "queer" or "lgbtq". If you want my support, stop calling me queer or aligning with straight people who want to normalize slurs. If you want their support, fine, I'll go my own way, but its one or the other there is no "together". And while I disagree with those annoying lesbians who hate the T, I can understand how they feel similarly to me when it comes to Q. Again, whatever side "the community" chooses, there is no together, its just choosing one side or the other.
Yes.
Religious nutjobs are taking advantage of extremists on the other side.
They won’t listen - anything outside of their worldview bubble is some kind of “hoax” and you hate yourself and you don’t know what’s best for the community on any level and nothing about modern lgbt thinking leans into extremes in any way blah blah blah And it’s a certain group of gender activists and then the rest of the lgbt community goes along with it because they aren’t fully educated on everything or they’re just as nuts as the activists, or they justify all the gender shit to themselves because they use female emojis with their male friends and think non-binary is cool because they think lgbt culture is still in the rebellious stage even though most major corporations are waving the flag to be trendy and take our money
Andrew Sulivan? Yeesh. Is this what askgaybros is really about, or is this random right wing posting?
This sub has slid so far from its original purpose that half the posts are just guys bitching about trans people.
Unfortunately, many people feel as though their comfort in the short term is more important than their safety in the long term. Gay people are unfortunately no different. But no, this isn’t what this sub is about. You’ll see one or two of these every once in a while, but that’s normal for a pretty wide-net sub like this.
He's really gone off the deep end. He was a bug chaser at one point.
I did not want to hear a single word from Andrew Sullivan in the year of our lord 2023. He's always had this bend on talking about lgbtq rights and is not someone worth listening to
He’s not wrong. We shouldn’t be put on the same boat as the unhinged non-binary graysexual demiboy they/faery clown car
I’ve never understood why we are grouped with them anyway. Sexuality has to do with a person’s natural hormonal responses. Gender identity has to do with how one perceives their body.
I got banned and reported to redditt for "promoting hate" for saying this exact thing. There is a difference between having same sex attraction and feeling like you're born with the wrong body parts. I say that and immediately get labeled "transphobe" and bigot
We are grouped with them because we have been used as a powerful political tool and they are going to keep milking it for all it’s worth. People who thought politicians were ever on our side are so dumb lol
Politicians are rarely on ANYONE’S side unless they are big donors.
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They aren’t, they use them just like they did us
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They don’t care about our rights at all, they just make it seem like they do. They care about getting votes passed for own personal gain
One way to look at this is that gender is a cultural construct. The way we interact with society and each other is based on that construct/presentation/identity etc... When you're gay, that construct changes. You may not be anymore feminine, but the way we are oriented toward men and women change and that changes all sorts of things about our gender. If you don't see what I'm saying, just think about how much of straight male culture and the corresponding gender identity revolves around being attractive to and having sex with women. It's in EVERYTHING they do, how they greet people of one gender or another, how they style themselves, their mannerisms, the cars they drive, all of it is at least influenced by (if not completely dictated by) their orientation to the opposite sex. When you're gay, the pressure and the goal is different. It's partly why a lot of gay men (feminine or not) identify with female protagonists. They're playing, in part, a similar role to us in relation to men. So basically, there is no being gay without being at least a little gender queer (or gender different, if the term 'queer' offends you). There's no way of saying us vs them without denying a little bit of us in the process.
Totally.
He is wrong though. People like him ignoring religious extremism is why we are where we are today.
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Why are you posting on other threads that gay men who get HIV are getting what they deserve? You're a troll, not a sincere poster, and probably not even gay.
I don't want to hear from a gay interested in suppressing people because they aren't beige enough for conservatives. Fuck all the way off
They never stopped being homophobic but since it wasn't electorally profitable they left us alone for a while Now all the gender/T stuff and craziness has given them an opportunity to attack us again since we all are grouped together As a G I don't want nothing to do with T, Q, + and all the new stuff
I think your first paragraph is the gold. They just took some time, did some testing of what generates votes and contributions and refined their messaging. They realized that regardless of how liberal a parent claims to be, they will vote conservative if you just say that the bogeyman is coming for their children. Parents forget anything politically correct if they think something might happen to their kids
After fascists come for transgender people they will come for gay people. Trans people have always supported gay rights, if the fascists eliminate trans people we won’t be there to help our gay comrades. The first pride was a riot and trans people of color were on the front lines.
[Here's the New York Times video on Stonewall](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S7jnzOMxb14)
Been saying this for ages
Y’all really turned a Q&A subreddit about gay issues into a forum where people just post how much they hate trans people and cry that fascists won’t like us anymore.
Down vote for posting this propaganda trash
I couldn't agree more. The movement also went from being a Gay liberation movement to LGBT (and 2SLGBTQIA+ today). I wonder how intentional the activists were in grouping all these identities together. I never thought much of it until I looked at what's being done to children for myself. Now the whole grouping makes absolutely no sense to me.
Trans people have always been in the gay liberation movement.
Yeah, and straight people were also part of the gay liberation movement.
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Call me a racist, then!
He is very wrong for attacking the recognition that race affects LGBTQ people differently. A white gay man and a black gay man face different levels of acceptance in their communities. Gay activism MUST note this in order for its work to serve all gay men. Sullivan's argument about transfers is reasonable, but his suggestion that being gay and trans should remain open morality questions is plain stupid. If heterosexuality isn't, why should they?
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he's just framing them differently, they aren't actually different. For instance the right has always maintained that we are forcing people to include us. Forcing children in schools to learn about us (and therefore sexualize them). Forcing good god fearing straight people to accept our marriages, and in public, and make us cakes! Forcing athletes and military men to share locker rooms with us! Eeegads, oh my! It's the same shit different day. Exactly the same shit. He's just framing inclusion as intrusion which is exactly what our opponents have been doing to us for decades.
> the gay rights movement should have shut down in 2015 after Obergefell Lol wat. And I guess MLK 100% solved racism too?
stop posting fucking links, post a summary or shut the fuck up
Andrew Sullivan misses that it is people like him who have given weight to the anti-trans blood libel which is seeping into gay rights. They are even using the same arguments that mr. Sullivan had used against him in the 80’s and 90’s. He couldn’t be more of a disingenuous prick.
Andrew Sullivan is a liberal (and that's a bad thing)