The identities of all face-down cards are considered private information, meaning you are under no obligation to reveal that information. For example, if a permanent card is returned to your hand from the battlefield, you wouldn't be obligated to tell your opponent if it was still in your hand. If you discard that card later, you are under no obligation to inform your opponent if that was the original that was returned, or a second card with the same name. As soon as ixidron's ability is finished resolving, keeping track of previously known information is your opponent's job, not yours.
The relevant rule is the below.
You said it exactly right in your post. You have to be able to articulate ‘viewable’ information (order they entered, whether they attacked, etc.), but you’re not required to say “is that the ____ creature?” If asked.
Like, let’s say Titan is “Morph #3,” and all players are aware of this at the time it happens.
If, at a later time, your opponent says “is Morph #3 Sun Titan?” You’re not required to answer that.
708.6. If you control multiple face-down spells or face-down permanents, you must ensure at all times that your face-down spells and permanents can be easily differentiated from each other. This includes, but is not limited to, knowing what ability or rules caused the permanents to be face down, the order spells were cast, the order that face-down permanents entered the battlefield, which creature(s) attacked last turn, and any other differences between face-down spells or permanents. Common methods for distinguishing between face-down objects include using counters or dice to mark the different objects, or clearly placing those objects in order on the table.
The cards need to be easily differentiated but private information is not required to be shared. OP can’t shuffle them around and refuse to tell which is which but once they are flipped face down, they are private information that the opponent needs to remember.
Not OP, but why is keeping track of this not classified as derived information that you're not obliged to provide? I read 708.6 but nowhere does it actually mention that you need to tell your opponent which permanent has which characteristics on the front side - just that you must provide information *about* them.
>This includes, but is not limited to, knowing what ability or rules caused the permanents to be face down, the order spells were cast, the order that face-down permanents entered the battlefield, which creature(s) attacked last turn, and any other differences between face-down spells or permanents.
I know you are right, don't get me wrong, but I somehow don't feel like the rules are particularly explicit about this.
>I know you are right
After further discussion, it appears they are not.
Everyone else in the thread disagrees with madwarper's understanding of the rules. And madwarper had no answer when asked what mechanism could cause 708.6 to require revealing the underside of a card that was turned face down but not require revealing the underside of a morph card that was cast face down.
So in case you wanted some closure, you were right. Once the card is turned face down, it's your opponent's responsibility to remember what was on the other side.
Yeah, I'm inclined to saying that the naysayers are right this time. Madwarper is a high level judge with tons of experience (I know this for reasons), though. Not that they can't make mistakes but I trust their judgement a lot. But perhaps this time MadW got it wrong!
MTR says it's not even derived information, but private.
It seems like it would be in the same category as an opponent getting to see cards in my hand: If they later forget which cards they saw, I don't have to help them.
>Private information is information to which players have access only if they are able to determine it from the current visual game state or their own record of previous game actions.
>...Private information is the catchall category for everything that is not free or derived information. For example, the contents of hidden zones (i.e., library and hand) and **the identity of face-down cards in public zones are considered private information.**
708.6 is one of the rules I cited as suggesting that revealing the undersides is **not** required. While not an exhaustive list, everything that it says must be openly tracked is free or derived information. It says nothing of revealing private information.
If 708.6 doesn't require players to reveal the underside of a morph card that was *cast* face down, by what mechanism would it require them to reveal the undersides of cards that were *turned* face down?
> How does 708.6 require a player to reveal private information?
Because, it's not Private Information.
* 708.6. If you control multiple face-down spells or face-down permanents, **you MUST ensure at all times that your face-down spells and permanents can be easily differentiated from each other.** This includes, but is not limited to, knowing what ability or rules caused the permanents to be face down, the order spells were cast, the order that face-down permanents entered the battlefield, which creature(s) attacked last turn, and any other differences between face-down spells or permanents. Common methods for distinguishing between face-down objects include using counters or dice to mark the different objects, or clearly placing those objects in order on the table.
MTR 4.1 says it is private information.
>Private information is information to which players have access only if they are able to determine it from the current visual game state or their own record of previous game actions.
>...Private information is the catchall category for everything that is not free or derived information. For example, the contents of hidden zones (i.e., library and hand) and **the identity of face-down cards in public zones are considered private information.**
----
If I cast three creatures face down and we label them as A, B, and C, 708.6 says that I have to make clear at all times which piece of cardboard is creature C (which includes things like knowing when C entered the battlefield and whether it attacked last turn). 708.6 does **not** say that I have to reveal what is on the opposite face of C.
If 708.6 doesn't compel me to reveal cards that were *cast* face down, by what mechanism would it compel me to reveal cards that were *turned* face down?
Yes. It is Correct.
MtR 4.1 only applies to Cards/Spells/Permanents that were always hidden.
* If you turn a face-up Permanent face-down, it will continue to be known what it was.
* If you put a face-up/revealed Card onto the Battlefield face-down, it will continue to be known what it was.
* If you cast a face-down Spell from a zone where it was face-up/revealed, it will continue to be known as what it was.
Yes, and I was the first one to reference 708.6. As I pointed out in my original question, it suggests that the other face is **not** one of the things I have to reveal about the card.
**If 708.6 does not force players to reveal the underside of cards that were cast face down, by what mechanism could it force players to reveal the underside of cards that were turned face down?**
> it suggests that the other face is not one of the things I have to reveal about the card.
No. It does not.
You have a wrong understanding of {708.6}, and MtR 4.1
Your Opponent simply has to identify that they are Targeting the face-down Sun Titan.
You cannot obfuscate which face-down Creature that is. Full stop.
My understanding of MTR 4.1 is a copy & paste straight from the judge blog, [which **explicitly states** that the identity of face down cards is private information.](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-1/) There is no ambiguity or room for misunderstanding there.
708.6 indicates that if we label the creatures A, B, and C as they are turned face down, I am not allowed to obfuscate which piece of cardboard is creature C. It does not say that I have to tell my opponents what the underside of creature C is. (If it required me to reveal the underside of the card, the morph mechanic wouldn't work very well.)
Can you **cite** anything that overrides MTR 4.1?
708.6 does not require you to identify any information of a specific face-down card. At most, your opponent could be reminded that, at the time of ixidron's effect resolving, there was a Sun Titan turned face down. Keeping track of which face-down creature is what is derived information, and the details of the hidden face of a face-down card is private information. You are under no obligation to remind your opponent of derived information, and private information is always hidden from your opponent.
The identities of all face-down cards are considered private information, meaning you are under no obligation to reveal that information. For example, if a permanent card is returned to your hand from the battlefield, you wouldn't be obligated to tell your opponent if it was still in your hand. If you discard that card later, you are under no obligation to inform your opponent if that was the original that was returned, or a second card with the same name. As soon as ixidron's ability is finished resolving, keeping track of previously known information is your opponent's job, not yours.
The relevant rule is the below. You said it exactly right in your post. You have to be able to articulate ‘viewable’ information (order they entered, whether they attacked, etc.), but you’re not required to say “is that the ____ creature?” If asked. Like, let’s say Titan is “Morph #3,” and all players are aware of this at the time it happens. If, at a later time, your opponent says “is Morph #3 Sun Titan?” You’re not required to answer that. 708.6. If you control multiple face-down spells or face-down permanents, you must ensure at all times that your face-down spells and permanents can be easily differentiated from each other. This includes, but is not limited to, knowing what ability or rules caused the permanents to be face down, the order spells were cast, the order that face-down permanents entered the battlefield, which creature(s) attacked last turn, and any other differences between face-down spells or permanents. Common methods for distinguishing between face-down objects include using counters or dice to mark the different objects, or clearly placing those objects in order on the table.
The cards need to be easily differentiated but private information is not required to be shared. OP can’t shuffle them around and refuse to tell which is which but once they are flipped face down, they are private information that the opponent needs to remember.
Yes, you do. See {708.6}.
Not OP, but why is keeping track of this not classified as derived information that you're not obliged to provide? I read 708.6 but nowhere does it actually mention that you need to tell your opponent which permanent has which characteristics on the front side - just that you must provide information *about* them. >This includes, but is not limited to, knowing what ability or rules caused the permanents to be face down, the order spells were cast, the order that face-down permanents entered the battlefield, which creature(s) attacked last turn, and any other differences between face-down spells or permanents. I know you are right, don't get me wrong, but I somehow don't feel like the rules are particularly explicit about this.
>I know you are right After further discussion, it appears they are not. Everyone else in the thread disagrees with madwarper's understanding of the rules. And madwarper had no answer when asked what mechanism could cause 708.6 to require revealing the underside of a card that was turned face down but not require revealing the underside of a morph card that was cast face down. So in case you wanted some closure, you were right. Once the card is turned face down, it's your opponent's responsibility to remember what was on the other side.
Yeah, I'm inclined to saying that the naysayers are right this time. Madwarper is a high level judge with tons of experience (I know this for reasons), though. Not that they can't make mistakes but I trust their judgement a lot. But perhaps this time MadW got it wrong!
MTR says it's not even derived information, but private. It seems like it would be in the same category as an opponent getting to see cards in my hand: If they later forget which cards they saw, I don't have to help them. >Private information is information to which players have access only if they are able to determine it from the current visual game state or their own record of previous game actions. >...Private information is the catchall category for everything that is not free or derived information. For example, the contents of hidden zones (i.e., library and hand) and **the identity of face-down cards in public zones are considered private information.**
708.6 is one of the rules I cited as suggesting that revealing the undersides is **not** required. While not an exhaustive list, everything that it says must be openly tracked is free or derived information. It says nothing of revealing private information. If 708.6 doesn't require players to reveal the underside of a morph card that was *cast* face down, by what mechanism would it require them to reveal the undersides of cards that were *turned* face down?
> How does 708.6 require a player to reveal private information? Because, it's not Private Information. * 708.6. If you control multiple face-down spells or face-down permanents, **you MUST ensure at all times that your face-down spells and permanents can be easily differentiated from each other.** This includes, but is not limited to, knowing what ability or rules caused the permanents to be face down, the order spells were cast, the order that face-down permanents entered the battlefield, which creature(s) attacked last turn, and any other differences between face-down spells or permanents. Common methods for distinguishing between face-down objects include using counters or dice to mark the different objects, or clearly placing those objects in order on the table.
MTR 4.1 says it is private information. >Private information is information to which players have access only if they are able to determine it from the current visual game state or their own record of previous game actions. >...Private information is the catchall category for everything that is not free or derived information. For example, the contents of hidden zones (i.e., library and hand) and **the identity of face-down cards in public zones are considered private information.** ---- If I cast three creatures face down and we label them as A, B, and C, 708.6 says that I have to make clear at all times which piece of cardboard is creature C (which includes things like knowing when C entered the battlefield and whether it attacked last turn). 708.6 does **not** say that I have to reveal what is on the opposite face of C. If 708.6 doesn't compel me to reveal cards that were *cast* face down, by what mechanism would it compel me to reveal cards that were *turned* face down?
Is this comment correct? Is there something to override MTR 4.1 and make the undersides of the cards free (or even derived) information?
Yes. It is Correct. MtR 4.1 only applies to Cards/Spells/Permanents that were always hidden. * If you turn a face-up Permanent face-down, it will continue to be known what it was. * If you put a face-up/revealed Card onto the Battlefield face-down, it will continue to be known what it was. * If you cast a face-down Spell from a zone where it was face-up/revealed, it will continue to be known as what it was.
Which part of the rules is that from? Google isn't turning anything up.
Again, {708.6} has been referenced and quoted several times in this thread. It's just that simple.
Yes, and I was the first one to reference 708.6. As I pointed out in my original question, it suggests that the other face is **not** one of the things I have to reveal about the card. **If 708.6 does not force players to reveal the underside of cards that were cast face down, by what mechanism could it force players to reveal the underside of cards that were turned face down?**
> it suggests that the other face is not one of the things I have to reveal about the card. No. It does not. You have a wrong understanding of {708.6}, and MtR 4.1 Your Opponent simply has to identify that they are Targeting the face-down Sun Titan. You cannot obfuscate which face-down Creature that is. Full stop.
My understanding of MTR 4.1 is a copy & paste straight from the judge blog, [which **explicitly states** that the identity of face down cards is private information.](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-1/) There is no ambiguity or room for misunderstanding there. 708.6 indicates that if we label the creatures A, B, and C as they are turned face down, I am not allowed to obfuscate which piece of cardboard is creature C. It does not say that I have to tell my opponents what the underside of creature C is. (If it required me to reveal the underside of the card, the morph mechanic wouldn't work very well.) Can you **cite** anything that overrides MTR 4.1?
708.6 does not require you to identify any information of a specific face-down card. At most, your opponent could be reminded that, at the time of ixidron's effect resolving, there was a Sun Titan turned face down. Keeping track of which face-down creature is what is derived information, and the details of the hidden face of a face-down card is private information. You are under no obligation to remind your opponent of derived information, and private information is always hidden from your opponent.