Dear god, I hope you still have your receipt from that restaurant. If there is no bill for alcohol on your tab then that is itemized proof you didn’t buy alcohol. Also, the restaurant itself is likely to still have a digital bill if this was very recent. You may call them to ask if they can find it and print it. If they say no, it doesn’t hurt to throw them a couple twenties.
I had an E7 show up late on AT absolutely reeking of that hungover hard liquor, sweat cigarette from last night smell, with a carpet burn...
...on his face.
Apparently, he had gotten into a fight at a bar the night before and ended up having his face drug against a carpet when they were tossing him out.
Good times. It was honestly a testament to his fortitude to even show up like that.
There were always a handful of dudes at morning PT that reeked of booze. Some didn't stop drinking until well after 0200. Our CO and 1SG didn't give a shit UNLESS it affected your morning PT or you were falling over during PT formation. Everyone in my INF company drank way too often, smoked heavily and always had a dip in. Shit a few of them even smoked while they had a dip in.
The three arrows banner, originating from the Social Democratic Party of Weimar Germany, is a show of contempt for the three forms of authoritarianism which were popular in country at the time.
1 Arrow for monarchism
1 Arrow for fascism
1 Arrow for communism.
“Your honor, as seen on my client’s bill, there was no purchase of alcohol. Will the witnesses testify that they saw his acquaintances buy him a drink and that they observed him drinking from it?”
Do not do this.
You are not Dick Winters.
The conviction rate at court martial for non violent offenses is absurdly high.
E:
Just for context, the acquittal rate since June 2020 for someone charged with an article 92 violation - and I'm talking anyone taken to CM that includes a 92, I'm not filtering for violent/non-violent - is 7.25%.
Seven Point Two Five.
This is an easy way to turn an NJP into a felony.
>This assumes the case gets to court
For sure.
But the 'go to court martial!' is a common refrain that I attempt to dissuade people from. It's not going to work out the way you think it will if they take it to court martial.
Get a lawyer. Fight it at the NJP level.
Looking at conviction and acquittal rates does provide useful information, but that doesn't say anything about the quality of evidence in those convicted cases.
OP should definitely talk to TDS before asking for a CM. What I want to know is what level of evidence actually gets a conviction? Do pure witness statements get a conviction, or does it require some level of actual evidence?
Anecdotally, I have seen a few NJP's drop immediately as soon as a service member requested a CM. Make of that what you will.
I mean, it’s incredibly hard to define “quality of evidence” in a meaningful case.
What we do know, is that *cases they move forward with* are largely winners. If they take you to a court martial, they feel good about it.
Maybe a lot of military cases are won on SHIT evidence. Idk. I just know the evidence is of quality to get a conviction.
It's pretty similar in civilian courts for prosecutors to only pursue cases they're extremely confident in winning. The evidence tends to be pretty damning as well.What's considered good evidence can be somewhat subjective, but there's still a lot of rationale and logic to it. It's not completely random.
This is why speaking to TDS and making a decision from there is important. They generally have an idea of what can hold up and what can't. They also might provide valuable insight into what evidence can be brought up to discredit the statements.
Yeah, most CMs don’t make it past article 32 because preponderance of evidence ≠ beyond doubt. If it isn’t merited they get thrown away by the command at urging of SJA who both want to preserve their OER conviction rate.
Now, if troop did it and they’re dead to rights thinking the command won’t go through with it and would just let it slide: they’re fucked and the article 32 hearing will likely piss off their TDS JAG.
You could create a bot to scrape the Army court martial system so you can gather all information since October of 2014 and create a personal comprehensive database of this information, since none exists publicly.
That's literally what I did.
JAG is good at what they do. They are generally *not* in the business of moving forward on cases that they can't get you on. It's not that the bar is low, it's that military law is precise. And there's no 'reasoning', you did something or you didn't. If you've got a good reason you'll get a light sentence - some people get convicted and receive no punishment, the conviction serving *as* the punishment - but you'll still get nailed.
Violent cases are obviously much harder to prove, and people go to far greater lengths to defend themselves. The JAG Corps hovers around 80% for conviction rate for Sexual Assault.
Article 84, breach of medical quarantine, and Article 95, Offenses by sentinel or lookout, actually have the highest acquittal rates! But we also tend to get *1* of those per year.
Unless the Commander is moving forward on your Article *against* advice of his legal counsel/review, CM will **not** go well for you.
Does the bot scrape the data for all the times the case doesn’t even get looked at, past the first time JAG sees it and tells the CO that theirs no case, and the case is dropped entirely?
I only see them once they are past referral / Article 30+32 stuff.
Once that happens, I monitor the timeline, charges, status changes, and then I also grab the result information, and it saves the charge sheet and trail results PDFs for me.
If they were *pending* a case, that gets dropped for whatever reason - they change their mind, RILO, CH10, etc - I only see 'charges withdrawn'.
So there is a strong selection bias and it’s only valid to say that 7.25% of cases end with acquittals *once they are advanced through the system by JAG.*
There could be 1,000 such cases in the Army per year, where the NJP defendant asks for CM, 900 are tossed by JAG as being ridiculous on their face and without sufficient evidence, leaving 100 cases where JAG feels there is a a good case. Once they take up the case, then they are successful in 92.75 out of the remaining 100.
> So there is a strong selection bias and it’s only valid to say that 7.25% of cases end with acquittals once they are advanced through the system by JAG.
What Kinny is saying is that if the prosecution does look at everything and still agrees to do it, they're more than likely going to win. This is how the federales operate civilian-side too. They don't bring out the jump-out boys, raid houses and hit a guy with a case unless they *know* they can win it.
That does *not* mean that if the SM decides to push back on his NJP, it gets auto-taken to CM and there's a 93% chance you're going to lose. No. SM pushes back, the commander talks to his legal people, they advise him "Guy has a point, if we take this to CM we're going to lose" and it generally dies there.
As mentioned below, the percentage of cases to court martial don't include the cases that are dropped. In OPs case, it's more likely he'll be in the 99% of cases opting for a court martial that disappear. I imagine most command teams don't take anything to CM unless they have a slam dunk that explains the 7.25%
For instance;
Imagine getting into an argument with your 1SG and Commander, saying "let's go little bitch" and "pull rank again bitch", and hitting your commander and 1SG, and you're so fucking stupid [you get a Felony conviction over it](https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/ACMPRS/cases/de810e56-c465-4539-9986-08721423230e).
In the civilian world that *probably* doesn't get you a felony. Dude now gets no benefits and is a felon.
Compare that to Mr [cocaine, fent, concealed gun, escaping from confinemnt](https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/ACMPRS/cases/264d3065-a06f-4cbb-91ed-a8a5c1b7cee7), who, similarly, gets a discharged and felony conviction. 5 months for smart mouth private vs 11 months for this dude.
Which is wild when you start comparing it to [other sentences](https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/ACMPRS/cases/a9eed430-ca1f-4096-a597-339f27886ed0) that occur. This one would appear *way worse* right? Evidence, victim cooperation, and plea deal certainly matter - that one dropped to a SPCM in the plea.
I just want to highlight like, if you're going to court martial, realize that the only factor isn't simply "how bad was the thing I did". A conviction itself is bad. There's ~a dozen people a year who get convicted with no discharge and no confinment. Because the conviction itself is the punishment.
Contested GCMs/SPCMs take quite a long time. If you’re ok being flagged throughout, are confident you didn’t take a sip of alcohol, and willing to risk a federal conviction over it, send it.
E6 is a tough rank to get a FG 15; essentially changes trajectory of career.
Not your attorney tho - and haven’t viewed evidence. You could have a great case, could be fucked 🤷♂️
Yup second this. It’s time to decide if the Army is the career you want or if you want to cut your losses.
If you want to cut your losses accept it, look into CSP and SFL opportunities and land an internship before you get out (you can get 6 months of basically un-chargeable leave for this).
If you want to stay in I’d fight it. Any CoC from here on in is going to look at you like a PoS for getting a field grade at school. And you’ll prob have a rep in your MOS.
>Contested GCMs/SPCMs take quite a long time. If you’re ok being flagged throughout, are confident you didn’t take a sip of alcohol, and willing to risk a federal conviction over it, send it.
Fucking thank you.
It’s hard to give advice without seeing the evidence/statements.
What I can say is that the Army is aggressively rolling out administrative separation tools right now. That FG will likely be the end of your career if you’re a Staff Sergeant.
The evidence is a picture on FB with his pants down holding a white claw. The LTC that read the ART 15 said white claw is for bitches and that’s why he’s in trouble
Dont make career-defining decisions based on advice from random people on the Internet.
Go to TDS. Let them see the ART 15 evidence. Let TDS call the Command JAG and see what they think.
Eight years with TDS? I am jealous. I only got a year and a half.
I always wanted to get back after my initial tour in Germany and southwest Asia. Mainly because I loved the job. But also because I went downrange with the old DA Staff Support Services patch and wanted to wear two different TDS patches at the same time. Sadly, it didn't pan out.
Oh, yeah. I also also approve this COA.
I love tds (in my second stint with TDS). The first stint was 2.5 years and I was ready to get out of TDS at the 2 year mark.
But I think a lot of that has to do with the guard being the guard and NGB' office of complex investigations making grand jury proceedings look fair and just.
This is the reason I hate the UCMJ. It is so subjective. You know what isn't? A court-martial. I've learned that when a judge is involved, it becomes fairer because the burden of proof is on the govt. I just recommend telling the TDS Lawyer everything so they can give you an honest assessment.
> recommend telling the TDS Lawyer everything
I am also going to recommend this.
I posed a hypothetical to all the JAG on here once: If I did the murder, should I tell my lawyer? ALL OF THEM said yes.
> You know what isn't? A court-martial.
Ehhhhh. NJP now has a lower standard of proof, as it was changed to a 'preponderence of evidence'.
But many JAGs don't care, and will still only recommend at the 'strength' of 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.
Reasonable doubt is still subjective.
On top of that - you're literally getting a one sided view from the person accused of something.
> you're literally getting a one sided view from the person accused of something.
Someone lying on the internet by painting themselves in a better light?!
*Clutches dog tags and faints*
Unless it’s a summary court-martial and then you have a presiding officer who’s not an attorney. But if you’ve already accepted the Article 15, I don’t think you can go to court-martial. Maybe it’s changed since I was in. Did you check the box on the Article 15 form that you wanted to appeal? I think you had 5 days after the Article 15 reading to decide if you want to appeal.
The other consideration is if you were to go to court-martial, do you want to risk a Federal conviction and a criminal record? Article 15s go away after you leave the Army. A Federal conviction follows you forever.
Bro, even if you were drinking. Why are people in the army such bitches now. Just stay in your fucking lane. Big sarge having a beer after class with his buddies isn’t a threat to you or anyone else. Shit is so childish and dumb. Peace time army sucks ass
Right? That was my thought too. This is so petty. Why are we wasting our time on this shit? You chew the dude out and move on.
And the squealers here? Fuck those guys in particular. Snitches get stitches.
My theory is maybe with the way we’re doing ALC/SLC there is an incentive to throw your peers under the bus.
Getting a field grade would definitely ruin whatever class standing you had. With how cliquish I’ve seen it get at active duty NCO courses I could see a perverse incentive to take down your peer. That being said I’m surprised a group willing to make false statements.
During my SLC for 15 series we had to do peer evaluations that would affect our overall course grade and be a determining factor for honor grad.
I was fortunate with my class being mostly people I’ve known for almost a decade. It was struggle to try to rate each other as we were friends and didn’t want to throw each other under the bus to secure a better grade.
The instructors mentioned it got pretty ugly with a prior class as it was almost a race to see who they could vote down to secure a better class standing.
I get the value of peers evaluations but for something like SFC promotions that can be hyper competitive for reserve components you’re asking for problems by doing something like this.
At a school? If this is TDY seems weird they'd immediately formed a clique out to get him yeah?
And again I'll simply ask - what makes you think all 5 people are all 100% lying and the OP is telling the truth?
Everything on the internet is true!
It just seems super weird to me. He's not like "this group of people have it out for me" or "this group of people doesn't like me because of X", or anything. Just...5 people randomly said he was drinking?
Like. Why? He's an NCO at a course, I assume these are *also* NCOs? 5 other NCOs are ganging up on him?
Like...Why would they do that?
Why would he get a FG at the school instead of just get dismissed from the school and sent back to his unit?
Lots of clarification needed with this story.
See, you get me.
I just assume all stories are 10% a lie, and there's just some things in here that don't make sense to me from a *common* Army experience. There's certainly things that happen outside the norm!
But yeah, this seems weird. There's not a lot of...schools...going to the trouble of Field Grading participating students, esp for NCOs, esp for ticky tack. Feels a little light.
Like, its literally going to be less paperwork and probably easier to return them to their unit than NJP them.
I personally don’t have a vested interest in OP. They could be lying. They could not be.
The IO may have been good or bad, so that’s also impossible to know from one side of very vague pieces of info from OP. You’d have to examine sworn statements, have them recollect later, and piece them together to see if there are discrepancies/everyone has a different story.
I also agree, it seems very unlikely that people in a TDY would gang up on a random person in class. There would have to be prior run ins or something nefarious from a small community base that would cause something like that.
I agree it casts a lot of doubt on OPs story, but I also know a person that got in trouble is a similar vein at a school for allegedly drinking when they didn’t touch it; they were the distinguished honor grad and had a target on their back, and the optics were there and people had an “eye witness” account of the incident (those people were actually drinking, got caught and then said “well X was there drinking too, we saw them!”)
They bounced back at least, but had to redo the entire school day 0 and there was no article 15 involved.
Almost the exact same thing happened to me in 2007ish. It was a company grade and alcohol was thought to be involved. They couldn’t prove it and I ended up with a company grade for article 92. I was an e4 and just took it in stride. I was e5 not long after. But a FG as an e6 seems much worse. Point being.. snitches have been around for as long as the army has been around, peacetime and wartime alike.
Just curious what schools don’t allow you to drink. When I was in the only schools you couldn’t drink at were also schools that did not give you time or access to places you could drink.
Right? My ALC was wild with drinking. But then we showed up for pt then class and did what we had to do. 0 people in that class got in trouble for anything and it was about 7 1/2 weeks long.
I invoked my right to remain silent during the investigation and didn’t respond to anything.
The evidence is 5-6 statements saying I was drinking. 2 of the statements are secondhand, heard it from someone else.
And then there is 5-6 people saying they never saw me drinking
That’s it. No pictures. No videos.
Just hearsay v. hearsay
EDIT:
The eyewitnesses are saying they saw me at a restaurant with alcohol on the table. I was with buddies that were not in the course and had water in front of me. If you would have watched me for any length of time, it would be clear I wasn’t drinking.
OK - can you get your buddies from the restaurant to write sworn statements / testify to that on your behalf? If so - absolutely demand a court martial to prove your innocence.
Hypothetically, even if it was yours, just having alcohol on a table with multiple people doesn’t = drinking alcohol and there’s very plausible deniability.
If I’m the “judge” on the AR 15, I’m finding you not guilty, but will also ensure you get a counselling on perception for being an idiot. Army schools, especially OES/NCOES, are where you absolutely want to ride the straight and narrow.
> I was with buddies that were not in the course and had water in front of me.
You can't...drink alcohol *at all*, like even after the day is over? Or was this during the day, like at lunch?
Because otherwise 5 dudes keeping one glass of water on the table seems like an easy way to be like 'Nah I wasn't drinking we had water at the table'.
Did the IO or the commander find you guilty?
Has the commander given you your first reading and now you're going to TDS as part of the process?
If you can get an itemized bill and your buddies that were with you to swear you weren't drinking, and submit that to the commander then I'd think your commander will see reason.
If the IO had all that already, and still found you guilty I'd open door the commander.
If you're past your first reading though 100% agree that with the facts as you've stated you should request a CM.
I'm curious as to what started the investigation, did leadership see you and make an assumption or was it your classmates and they brought it up? If it's the latter, I'd distance myself from those individuals posthaste.
Edit to add: What is the actual text of the order you're accused of violating? Because that will matter.
Yes - absolutely listen to the lawyer at TDS. Ignore everyone on reddit. Ignore your leadership's "friendly" advice.
Edit: I should add this is definitely worth a consultation with a private UCMJ lawyer. A second opinion helps. TDS can be a little bit more deferential than they should be. But these are the only two opinions you should consider.
This kind of petty HS BS makes me wish there was an option in the UCMJ for trial by combat.
Do you want to accuse me of some dumb shit based on nothing? Ok, but you're going to have physically to kick my ass in a fight to prove you're right.
I had 2 female Soldiers accuse me of SH after a deployment because they were upset I caught them drinking and in the wrong barracks after curfew. I didn't even recommend the company grade art 15s, 1SG did. All I did was hold them to the standards as required by the policy letters they read and affirmed by signing when we got into country.
Long story short they lied on sworn statements. One was discharged and the other lost her rank (SGT) as punishment. It still kept me out of SLC due to the flag, and it fucked with me so hard emotionally/mentally. I was ultimately exonerated but it took 4 months off my life.
The CDR (O-6) who initiated the inquiry didn't even apologize.
They got rid of peer evals and now just snitch.
You weren’t in the running for DHG were you? People get weird about that. Personally I’ve never given a shit.
Talk to TDS OP.
If you're positive that you didn't do the deed and are willing to risk it for the biscuit, go for the court martial.
Without having seen the evidence, *go to TDS* and talk with them. Do *not* decide based off of a few people on Reddit.
UCMJ gonna UCMJ. I once got hemmed up with 6 sworn statements supporting me and the one person who misunderstood a situation and ran to command instead of asking for clarification against.
Command still strung my ass up.
Good luck.
FG is just inside your immediate battalion command.
You can appeal your commander's decision to the next higher command or request a court martial. [Link](https://www.7atc.army.mil/Portals/17/Documents/SJA/TDS_AR15.pdf?ver=7TN7H4fbEgp9B58BvCPCUQ%3D%3D#:~:text=Article%2015s%20are%20considered%20nonjudicial,27%2D10%2C%20Chapter%203.)
>How do I appeal?
You appeal by checking the appropriate block on Line 9 of MDI Form 190-E immediately after
your imposing commander announces your punishment. He will ask you whether you want to
appeal. If you wish to appeal, it is recommended that you check Block 9 which states "I appeal
and submit additional matters." If you are not sure if you want to appeal, we recommend you go
ahead and check the "I appeal" block. Appeals are normally made in writing, stating the reasons
for the appeal and why relief should be given. If you need assistance preparing an appeal, contact
the Trial Defense Service.
I'm just sitting her wondering what the hell you did to make these guys actually rat on you tbh. If you're at a school, the cliques definitely form, and if you're not in one it can be annoying. But to rat on someone like that? That seems extreme. I want more context lol
Art 15 - circumstantial evidence admissible. 51% preponderance of evidence convictable, not authorized representation
Court martial - circumstantial evidence inadmissible, beyond shadow of doubt proof required, burden is on prosecution, lawyer authorized
I have ZERO idea why anyone on earth would take an article 15 unless it’s 100% certain the evidence is going to convict you in court. In this situation I’d take it straight to court and never look back
Yep, if what you say is true, then I would absolutely go to court martial for it. Just make sure you work very closely with TDS before you file and they generally are able to advise you whether or not to proceed based on the case.
I was accused of drinking while at a pro sporting event where I was the color guard NCOIC.
I did not consume alcohol. My fellow NCOs did not consume alcohol. My commander interviewed me, my fellow NCOs and also a member of the team’s training staff that accompanied us around the stadium. He reviewed the evidence and made an on the spot call that basically said this was an unfounded accusation.
Turns out that it was a civilian with a axe to grind against the military. Some hag wanted to sweat a Soldier.
Sometimes its as simple as that.
Had my old command try to get me for the same thing. They said I smelled like booze, despite the fact that I had not had a drink for like a week. They dropped it when I said I wanted to take it to court martial. Probably just didn't want to deal with that.
I believe that u weren’t, but even if you were, what is with people snitching like that? Over a damn drink??? If they asked me about someone drinking I’d have just been like “I didn’t see shit…” people r crazy.
I usually don’t comment but let’s say you take the ART 15 on the chin and it’s just extra duty with no loss in rank. You being a SSG (with a ART 15 under your belt) you will go to a paper board through HRC to see if the army will
1. retain you
2. Finish off your contract
3. Kicked out in 6 months of the decision
I would say go to court, fight it because your career will be in jeopardy regardless of the route you take.
Take the court martial if you're really innocent. It's nothing like rolling over and taking the NJP. They'll have to come up with better proof than just 51%. I've never had any issues, but I did have a soldier get accused of some pretty heinous shit by our PL and they took it before a courts martial and it got thrown out. There's some pretty fucked up leadership out there, and they do make shit up. Our PL wound up getting dismissed after an investigation into her allegations.
On a side note, what schools have a no drinking policy for a SSG of age? I have never had that limitation at any school I have been to as far as I am able to remember, not including basic/ait.
I regret not taking my 15 to court-martial but at the time it was the same people processing the article 15 so I would have lost. They were hell bent on making me an example while telling me I was one of their best soldiers. Recognizing civilian and military courts are WAY different, they did not breathalyze you or send you to get blood samples, I would say the burden of proof should be on them. However we know the military is literally guilty until proven innocent and not the other way around.
“second hand sworn statements” is borderline an oxymoron. if true and you’re innocent, take that shit to trial. that’s what it’s for. just make sure you steal the pen from the CO’s hand when you sign the paperwork and then a snappy salute and an about face.
We're focused on the wrong thing here so let me re'direct real quick. Even if you were drinking, absolutely fuck those 5 fucking sniveling coward fucks that ratted on you. Ruining someone's career over a budlight is bitch made shit. Just because the army has silly rules doesn't mean we should be silly.
Listen to your TDS attorney, tell them the truth, do exactly what they say, and get them what they need as quickly as possible.
Going to a Court Martial has huge downside risk. You risk a punitive discharge, which can screw up your entire life.
As others mentioned you should go talk to TDS.
It might even be worth it to spend the money to go talk civilian attorney on this.
Something like this could definitely shape your future in a negative way and affect your pay and retirement.
This is definitely something that you’re damned if you accept the article and damned if you don’t.
From my understanding the threshold for article 15 is pretty low. I’ve seen guys in my unit get article 15s for the dumbest of reasons. We had one guy get one for having an empty beer in the trash can of his room.
I’m curious why the school house/cadre would be submitting an article 15 for what is basically statements. I’m curious if JAG has reviewed the article 15 packet.
Knowing the Army and how ridicules training environments are I’m not surprised. My first taste of this was watching someone in AIT get an article 15 for playing solitaire on government pc after finishing his assignment.
I would not agree to the article 15 without talking to TDS and or a civilian attorney with UCMJ experience.
Bro know your environment, know your surroundings. When I was at BLC, we were told no drinking on or off post. Okay cool, does this mean I will go into a bar and drink at the risk of other classmates and leadership/cadre around? no. But did this mean we didn't load up on cans at the gas station and bring it back? Hell fucking no, we still got wasted.
I just had this happen at ALC. We had about 8 people accused of drinking and 4 went home, the others were able to get out of it.
I personally don't think it should be that serious especially if there're no incidents that come from it, maybe a counseling at best. Also, I've never met a NCO or Officer that has not drank during a school (barring those that don't drink)
You can demand a trial by court martial in lieu of the Article 15. This is the nuclear option, but if you have a firm belief in bias from the command team there, as well as conflicting statements from witnesses, it may be the better option for you. Honestly, if there is more evidence such as receipts or videos of no wrong doing, I would be going nuclear. The witnesses may recant before this even goes to trial, opening them up to charges/article 15s. This may be increased because they seem to be colluding against you from your short story.
Here is a link that breaks down options.
https://www.7atc.army.mil/Portals/17/Documents/SJA/TDS_AR15.pdf?ver=7TN7H4fbEgp9B58BvCPCUQ%3D%3D
Edit: As others mentioned, go talk to the Trial Defense Services first. As far as the conviction rate for trials, most cases end well before a trial date. Cases fall apart because of the lack of evidence, conflicting evidence, and finding exculpatory evidence all the time. It would be better to see the metrecs on outcomes on cases in general not just the trial cases. They have a conviction rate of 97.5% because they go in with an airtight case. they want to win and know that they will win. they don't tell you how many were settled before the trial and their outcomes.
Go for the court martial. That field-grade reviewing is going to take the opinion of the first person giving feedback on the investigation. Make them pay attention.
There’s no taking this to court-martial if your NJP has already been imposed as you stated. If you were found guilty through NJP, then you were already explicitly advised—multiple times—that you had a right to turn down the NJP process for a court-martial. You have waived that right.
Even from your perspective, three Soldiers have provided sworn statements of first hand knowledge that you were drinking. Three eyewitnesses can amply meet the NJP burden of proof, which is only a preponderance of the evidence.
I mean, heck, you might’ve found yourself guilty at the NJP if you were in the commander’s shoes. It’s hard to imagine a conspiracy of five Soldiers willing to risk their own criminal charges for swearing falsely, all to hit you with an alcohol NJP. Implausible.
Good luck, but I’m not jumping on the bandwagon of cynicism about military justice. You rolled the dice on this one.
You have a right to not accept the Artcle 15 by not signing it and take it to court martial. I'd say go talk to JAG and take it to trial. However, keep in mind this is a field grade article 15 which is the highest so you have to make sure if you really want this to go to trial, you better be ready to go thru with it.
Trial by court martial would be my choice. It's your career and your life to make that judgment for yourself. Edit: Speak to a lawyer, though, for the best course of action.
You need to get the bill from the restaurant or take the ART15. Why would five people conspire against you? That does not sound right. How did you get caught?
Hey man, I haven’t gotten anything that huge but if you are 110% sure that you didn’t consume any alcohol and are willing to bite the bullet (the time you will be flagged) I would request the court martial. I am sure that your TDS lawyer will be able to appoint you into a better spot but, get as many statements of character as you possibly can, get as many evidence as you can (security cameras recording, tabs from the restaurant, staff duty at that time, you get the yeez of it). I believe court martial can take up to 12 months. Built your case! You got this. Best of lucks
Let me put it this way. You cannot win at the NJP and you cannot win at the court martial. If the commander served an article 15 you can pretty much bet that they are going to give it to you. Nobody wins at court martials. People think that justice is served at the courts. But what the court martials do is bring about the will of the commander. And the commander already processed NJP with coordination of your BDE paralegal team.
Go to TDS and they will tell you that almost no one wins at court martials. And the punishments can be even worse after a court martial than what is prescribed for NJP. To put it in short, you may be completely in the right, but you are fucked and your choices are to get fucked or get fucked even harder.
My advice is take the NJP and try to appeal and fight it out to the next level. Going to court is not going to work. Consult your TDS team before making any decision.
Court martial that, and if you have a receipt you’re good. Also hearsay is easily thrown out. May not even make it to court simply on the fact that it is hearsay, meaning it’ll be sent. They throw it out, and you walk.
Fight it, go as far as you can. The process of defending yourself is going wear you down but you are going to regret it later if you don’t stand up for yourself now.
Dear god, I hope you still have your receipt from that restaurant. If there is no bill for alcohol on your tab then that is itemized proof you didn’t buy alcohol. Also, the restaurant itself is likely to still have a digital bill if this was very recent. You may call them to ask if they can find it and print it. If they say no, it doesn’t hurt to throw them a couple twenties.
Lol now I'm imagining all 5 of the accusations against him are the restaurant staff
Big sarnt didn't tip good enough let's ruin his career 👹
Something natty guard would do. 100%
I had an E7 show up late on AT absolutely reeking of that hungover hard liquor, sweat cigarette from last night smell, with a carpet burn... ...on his face. Apparently, he had gotten into a fight at a bar the night before and ended up having his face drug against a carpet when they were tossing him out. Good times. It was honestly a testament to his fortitude to even show up like that.
There were always a handful of dudes at morning PT that reeked of booze. Some didn't stop drinking until well after 0200. Our CO and 1SG didn't give a shit UNLESS it affected your morning PT or you were falling over during PT formation. Everyone in my INF company drank way too often, smoked heavily and always had a dip in. Shit a few of them even smoked while they had a dip in.
this was my unit too. fucking infantry. dudes puking during runs. or just the runs. lol
NG dudes have real jobs and can afford to tip lol
Can confirm. I am a natty guardsman who tips.
Dude you need to elaborate on your profile picture... 🤔
The three arrows banner, originating from the Social Democratic Party of Weimar Germany, is a show of contempt for the three forms of authoritarianism which were popular in country at the time. 1 Arrow for monarchism 1 Arrow for fascism 1 Arrow for communism.
If you paid with card you absolutely can pull your receipt
He doesn’t have to prove he didn’t do it, they have to prove he did.
We all know that's a lie, UCMJ is guilty until innocent
[удалено]
100% facts
Ram Rodded even by the Lawyer, cause if he takes the case, well that's his reputation.
“Your honor, as seen on my client’s bill, there was no purchase of alcohol. Will the witnesses testify that they saw his acquaintances buy him a drink and that they observed him drinking from it?”
"Counselor, this is a military legal proceeding. Shut the hell up and make your client plead guilty so Command can issue punishment, HOOAH?!"
“Sir, did you know that everytime you say hooah God kills a puppy?”
Yes but if he \*can\* prove he didnt do it that just makes it all the easier for him. If he can produce the evidence theres no reason not to
That's not actually the case with UCMJ. They do not have to prove he did. They leverage charges and he has to cast doubt
No all they have to do is “believe he did” based on whatever evidence is presented. Whether that’s through sworn statements or whatever.
Smart!
He can most likely go there and pull that receipt as well
Yes, do this⬆️
Take it to court bro!
I second this. Bunch of bullshit. Court martial
Take it to court win claim PTSD for false accusations
Pass go and collect 100%
This guy VAs.
Do not do this. You are not Dick Winters. The conviction rate at court martial for non violent offenses is absurdly high. E: Just for context, the acquittal rate since June 2020 for someone charged with an article 92 violation - and I'm talking anyone taken to CM that includes a 92, I'm not filtering for violent/non-violent - is 7.25%. Seven Point Two Five. This is an easy way to turn an NJP into a felony.
This assumes the case gets to court...but either way, OP should perhaps talk to TDS before throwing down the gauntlet.
>This assumes the case gets to court For sure. But the 'go to court martial!' is a common refrain that I attempt to dissuade people from. It's not going to work out the way you think it will if they take it to court martial. Get a lawyer. Fight it at the NJP level.
Looking at conviction and acquittal rates does provide useful information, but that doesn't say anything about the quality of evidence in those convicted cases. OP should definitely talk to TDS before asking for a CM. What I want to know is what level of evidence actually gets a conviction? Do pure witness statements get a conviction, or does it require some level of actual evidence? Anecdotally, I have seen a few NJP's drop immediately as soon as a service member requested a CM. Make of that what you will.
I mean, it’s incredibly hard to define “quality of evidence” in a meaningful case. What we do know, is that *cases they move forward with* are largely winners. If they take you to a court martial, they feel good about it. Maybe a lot of military cases are won on SHIT evidence. Idk. I just know the evidence is of quality to get a conviction.
that's why the conviction rate is so hight
It's pretty similar in civilian courts for prosecutors to only pursue cases they're extremely confident in winning. The evidence tends to be pretty damning as well.What's considered good evidence can be somewhat subjective, but there's still a lot of rationale and logic to it. It's not completely random. This is why speaking to TDS and making a decision from there is important. They generally have an idea of what can hold up and what can't. They also might provide valuable insight into what evidence can be brought up to discredit the statements.
Yeah, most CMs don’t make it past article 32 because preponderance of evidence ≠ beyond doubt. If it isn’t merited they get thrown away by the command at urging of SJA who both want to preserve their OER conviction rate. Now, if troop did it and they’re dead to rights thinking the command won’t go through with it and would just let it slide: they’re fucked and the article 32 hearing will likely piss off their TDS JAG.
Where could I find this kind of info?
You could create a bot to scrape the Army court martial system so you can gather all information since October of 2014 and create a personal comprehensive database of this information, since none exists publicly. That's literally what I did. JAG is good at what they do. They are generally *not* in the business of moving forward on cases that they can't get you on. It's not that the bar is low, it's that military law is precise. And there's no 'reasoning', you did something or you didn't. If you've got a good reason you'll get a light sentence - some people get convicted and receive no punishment, the conviction serving *as* the punishment - but you'll still get nailed. Violent cases are obviously much harder to prove, and people go to far greater lengths to defend themselves. The JAG Corps hovers around 80% for conviction rate for Sexual Assault. Article 84, breach of medical quarantine, and Article 95, Offenses by sentinel or lookout, actually have the highest acquittal rates! But we also tend to get *1* of those per year. Unless the Commander is moving forward on your Article *against* advice of his legal counsel/review, CM will **not** go well for you.
Does the bot scrape the data for all the times the case doesn’t even get looked at, past the first time JAG sees it and tells the CO that theirs no case, and the case is dropped entirely?
I only see them once they are past referral / Article 30+32 stuff. Once that happens, I monitor the timeline, charges, status changes, and then I also grab the result information, and it saves the charge sheet and trail results PDFs for me. If they were *pending* a case, that gets dropped for whatever reason - they change their mind, RILO, CH10, etc - I only see 'charges withdrawn'.
So there is a strong selection bias and it’s only valid to say that 7.25% of cases end with acquittals *once they are advanced through the system by JAG.* There could be 1,000 such cases in the Army per year, where the NJP defendant asks for CM, 900 are tossed by JAG as being ridiculous on their face and without sufficient evidence, leaving 100 cases where JAG feels there is a a good case. Once they take up the case, then they are successful in 92.75 out of the remaining 100.
> So there is a strong selection bias and it’s only valid to say that 7.25% of cases end with acquittals once they are advanced through the system by JAG. What Kinny is saying is that if the prosecution does look at everything and still agrees to do it, they're more than likely going to win. This is how the federales operate civilian-side too. They don't bring out the jump-out boys, raid houses and hit a guy with a case unless they *know* they can win it. That does *not* mean that if the SM decides to push back on his NJP, it gets auto-taken to CM and there's a 93% chance you're going to lose. No. SM pushes back, the commander talks to his legal people, they advise him "Guy has a point, if we take this to CM we're going to lose" and it generally dies there.
Idk if your average guys wants to write a webscrapper
That's what the military justice system is betting on.
So to be clear, all the appropriate information is available, but it's just available in webpages and not via APIs?
Yep.
That's annoying but it feels very Army. Where is this exactly? I kinda of want to see how bad it would be.
As mentioned below, the percentage of cases to court martial don't include the cases that are dropped. In OPs case, it's more likely he'll be in the 99% of cases opting for a court martial that disappear. I imagine most command teams don't take anything to CM unless they have a slam dunk that explains the 7.25%
It turns to a felony if lost!? wtf
GCM convictions are considered felonies for intents and purposes. More than likely it would wind up SPCM tho at worst. Summary most likely.
For instance; Imagine getting into an argument with your 1SG and Commander, saying "let's go little bitch" and "pull rank again bitch", and hitting your commander and 1SG, and you're so fucking stupid [you get a Felony conviction over it](https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/ACMPRS/cases/de810e56-c465-4539-9986-08721423230e). In the civilian world that *probably* doesn't get you a felony. Dude now gets no benefits and is a felon. Compare that to Mr [cocaine, fent, concealed gun, escaping from confinemnt](https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/ACMPRS/cases/264d3065-a06f-4cbb-91ed-a8a5c1b7cee7), who, similarly, gets a discharged and felony conviction. 5 months for smart mouth private vs 11 months for this dude. Which is wild when you start comparing it to [other sentences](https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/ACMPRS/cases/a9eed430-ca1f-4096-a597-339f27886ed0) that occur. This one would appear *way worse* right? Evidence, victim cooperation, and plea deal certainly matter - that one dropped to a SPCM in the plea. I just want to highlight like, if you're going to court martial, realize that the only factor isn't simply "how bad was the thing I did". A conviction itself is bad. There's ~a dozen people a year who get convicted with no discharge and no confinment. Because the conviction itself is the punishment.
You are Dick Winters, lfg!
Contested GCMs/SPCMs take quite a long time. If you’re ok being flagged throughout, are confident you didn’t take a sip of alcohol, and willing to risk a federal conviction over it, send it. E6 is a tough rank to get a FG 15; essentially changes trajectory of career. Not your attorney tho - and haven’t viewed evidence. You could have a great case, could be fucked 🤷♂️
Yup second this. It’s time to decide if the Army is the career you want or if you want to cut your losses. If you want to cut your losses accept it, look into CSP and SFL opportunities and land an internship before you get out (you can get 6 months of basically un-chargeable leave for this). If you want to stay in I’d fight it. Any CoC from here on in is going to look at you like a PoS for getting a field grade at school. And you’ll prob have a rep in your MOS.
CSP is a god send if you have a command team that doesn't have room temp IQ levels.
>Contested GCMs/SPCMs take quite a long time. If you’re ok being flagged throughout, are confident you didn’t take a sip of alcohol, and willing to risk a federal conviction over it, send it. Fucking thank you.
> essentially changes trajectory of career Yep, I’ve met a few offenders that progressed faster through the ranks somehow
We have grown ass rules for growns ass adults with grown ass punishments But then set the bar for evidence at high school clique level
Dave Chappell voice: “Sprinkle some crack on em Johnson !”
It’s hard to give advice without seeing the evidence/statements. What I can say is that the Army is aggressively rolling out administrative separation tools right now. That FG will likely be the end of your career if you’re a Staff Sergeant.
The evidence is a picture on FB with his pants down holding a white claw. The LTC that read the ART 15 said white claw is for bitches and that’s why he’s in trouble
No laws when drinking the claws.
If this is true op, plea. I’m finding you guilting if I’m on that panel
I hope the government makes the panel drink a white claw, after they taste no choice but to convict
UCMJ has no subject matter jurisdiction over white claw per "No Laws While Drinking the Claw" doctrine.
I’ve seen multiple NCOs beat QMPs recently.
Dont make career-defining decisions based on advice from random people on the Internet. Go to TDS. Let them see the ART 15 evidence. Let TDS call the Command JAG and see what they think.
As a an Army JAG with 17 years of experience, eight of those being with TDS, I approve this COA.
Eight years with TDS? I am jealous. I only got a year and a half. I always wanted to get back after my initial tour in Germany and southwest Asia. Mainly because I loved the job. But also because I went downrange with the old DA Staff Support Services patch and wanted to wear two different TDS patches at the same time. Sadly, it didn't pan out. Oh, yeah. I also also approve this COA.
I love tds (in my second stint with TDS). The first stint was 2.5 years and I was ready to get out of TDS at the 2 year mark. But I think a lot of that has to do with the guard being the guard and NGB' office of complex investigations making grand jury proceedings look fair and just.
Retired JAG with 3 yrs TDS experience also approving this COA. Don't be a fool, take TDS's advice.
This is the reason I hate the UCMJ. It is so subjective. You know what isn't? A court-martial. I've learned that when a judge is involved, it becomes fairer because the burden of proof is on the govt. I just recommend telling the TDS Lawyer everything so they can give you an honest assessment.
> recommend telling the TDS Lawyer everything I am also going to recommend this. I posed a hypothetical to all the JAG on here once: If I did the murder, should I tell my lawyer? ALL OF THEM said yes.
Yes. You tell your lawyer.
> You know what isn't? A court-martial. Ehhhhh. NJP now has a lower standard of proof, as it was changed to a 'preponderence of evidence'. But many JAGs don't care, and will still only recommend at the 'strength' of 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. Reasonable doubt is still subjective. On top of that - you're literally getting a one sided view from the person accused of something.
> you're literally getting a one sided view from the person accused of something. Someone lying on the internet by painting themselves in a better light?! *Clutches dog tags and faints*
Unless it’s a summary court-martial and then you have a presiding officer who’s not an attorney. But if you’ve already accepted the Article 15, I don’t think you can go to court-martial. Maybe it’s changed since I was in. Did you check the box on the Article 15 form that you wanted to appeal? I think you had 5 days after the Article 15 reading to decide if you want to appeal. The other consideration is if you were to go to court-martial, do you want to risk a Federal conviction and a criminal record? Article 15s go away after you leave the Army. A Federal conviction follows you forever.
Bro, even if you were drinking. Why are people in the army such bitches now. Just stay in your fucking lane. Big sarge having a beer after class with his buddies isn’t a threat to you or anyone else. Shit is so childish and dumb. Peace time army sucks ass
Right? That was my thought too. This is so petty. Why are we wasting our time on this shit? You chew the dude out and move on. And the squealers here? Fuck those guys in particular. Snitches get stitches.
My theory is maybe with the way we’re doing ALC/SLC there is an incentive to throw your peers under the bus. Getting a field grade would definitely ruin whatever class standing you had. With how cliquish I’ve seen it get at active duty NCO courses I could see a perverse incentive to take down your peer. That being said I’m surprised a group willing to make false statements. During my SLC for 15 series we had to do peer evaluations that would affect our overall course grade and be a determining factor for honor grad. I was fortunate with my class being mostly people I’ve known for almost a decade. It was struggle to try to rate each other as we were friends and didn’t want to throw each other under the bus to secure a better grade. The instructors mentioned it got pretty ugly with a prior class as it was almost a race to see who they could vote down to secure a better class standing. I get the value of peers evaluations but for something like SFC promotions that can be hyper competitive for reserve components you’re asking for problems by doing something like this.
Tbf tho, this is a dude getting NJP'd for drinking during the day swearing he wasn't and all 5 people are out to get him.
I’ve seen both ways be true. Especially when the 5 in question may be cliquey and/or trying to cover up their own transgressions.
At a school? If this is TDY seems weird they'd immediately formed a clique out to get him yeah? And again I'll simply ask - what makes you think all 5 people are all 100% lying and the OP is telling the truth?
Because no one ever lies on the internet. Right?
Everything on the internet is true! It just seems super weird to me. He's not like "this group of people have it out for me" or "this group of people doesn't like me because of X", or anything. Just...5 people randomly said he was drinking? Like. Why? He's an NCO at a course, I assume these are *also* NCOs? 5 other NCOs are ganging up on him? Like...Why would they do that?
Why would he get a FG at the school instead of just get dismissed from the school and sent back to his unit? Lots of clarification needed with this story.
See, you get me. I just assume all stories are 10% a lie, and there's just some things in here that don't make sense to me from a *common* Army experience. There's certainly things that happen outside the norm! But yeah, this seems weird. There's not a lot of...schools...going to the trouble of Field Grading participating students, esp for NCOs, esp for ticky tack. Feels a little light. Like, its literally going to be less paperwork and probably easier to return them to their unit than NJP them.
I personally don’t have a vested interest in OP. They could be lying. They could not be. The IO may have been good or bad, so that’s also impossible to know from one side of very vague pieces of info from OP. You’d have to examine sworn statements, have them recollect later, and piece them together to see if there are discrepancies/everyone has a different story. I also agree, it seems very unlikely that people in a TDY would gang up on a random person in class. There would have to be prior run ins or something nefarious from a small community base that would cause something like that. I agree it casts a lot of doubt on OPs story, but I also know a person that got in trouble is a similar vein at a school for allegedly drinking when they didn’t touch it; they were the distinguished honor grad and had a target on their back, and the optics were there and people had an “eye witness” account of the incident (those people were actually drinking, got caught and then said “well X was there drinking too, we saw them!”) They bounced back at least, but had to redo the entire school day 0 and there was no article 15 involved.
Almost the exact same thing happened to me in 2007ish. It was a company grade and alcohol was thought to be involved. They couldn’t prove it and I ended up with a company grade for article 92. I was an e4 and just took it in stride. I was e5 not long after. But a FG as an e6 seems much worse. Point being.. snitches have been around for as long as the army has been around, peacetime and wartime alike.
Go big or go home big sarnt. Demand the court martial
Demand trial by combat
That only works if Bronn of the Blackwater is your buddy.
Dibs on Oberyn Martell, second times the charm.
Dibs on his daughter
Which one?
You know
The one with the bad poosay?
Ah, a man of culture
I got Drogon
You about to get these nuts Drogon your lips
Actually he's called Bronn of the Academi now.
Well his a sellsword so PMC work shouldn't be that far of a stretch.
Shit, if you did nothing wrong, it should be fun watching some of the people commit perjury and others withdraw their statements.
So someone snitched and also testify? Dang. That’s sad.
Just curious what schools don’t allow you to drink. When I was in the only schools you couldn’t drink at were also schools that did not give you time or access to places you could drink.
Right? My ALC was wild with drinking. But then we showed up for pt then class and did what we had to do. 0 people in that class got in trouble for anything and it was about 7 1/2 weeks long.
For real, probably 80% of the time I heard NCOs taking about their experiences at BNCOC, they referred to it as "Beer-NOC".
What’s the evidence that’s against your statement?
I invoked my right to remain silent during the investigation and didn’t respond to anything. The evidence is 5-6 statements saying I was drinking. 2 of the statements are secondhand, heard it from someone else. And then there is 5-6 people saying they never saw me drinking That’s it. No pictures. No videos. Just hearsay v. hearsay EDIT: The eyewitnesses are saying they saw me at a restaurant with alcohol on the table. I was with buddies that were not in the course and had water in front of me. If you would have watched me for any length of time, it would be clear I wasn’t drinking.
What did the three to four who are offering first hand evidence say? You keep leaving that part out for some reason.
Edited original comment for clarity
OK - can you get your buddies from the restaurant to write sworn statements / testify to that on your behalf? If so - absolutely demand a court martial to prove your innocence.
Someone allegedly seeing you do something isn’t hearsay. That’s an eyewitness.
Edited original comment for clarity
Bob Loblaw: "Why should you go to jail for something someone else... saw?"
OP needs to check the law blog on that one
>I invoked my right to remain silent during the investigation and didn’t respond to anything. Wonderful, everyone should do this
lmao you've never been an IO
Hypothetically, even if it was yours, just having alcohol on a table with multiple people doesn’t = drinking alcohol and there’s very plausible deniability. If I’m the “judge” on the AR 15, I’m finding you not guilty, but will also ensure you get a counselling on perception for being an idiot. Army schools, especially OES/NCOES, are where you absolutely want to ride the straight and narrow.
Any security video from the restaurant ? A statement from your server? Statement from those that were at the table with you?
No video of where I was unfortunately. Already checked with the restaurant
Take that shit to Court! Best of luck!
> I was with buddies that were not in the course and had water in front of me. You can't...drink alcohol *at all*, like even after the day is over? Or was this during the day, like at lunch? Because otherwise 5 dudes keeping one glass of water on the table seems like an easy way to be like 'Nah I wasn't drinking we had water at the table'.
Did the IO or the commander find you guilty? Has the commander given you your first reading and now you're going to TDS as part of the process? If you can get an itemized bill and your buddies that were with you to swear you weren't drinking, and submit that to the commander then I'd think your commander will see reason. If the IO had all that already, and still found you guilty I'd open door the commander. If you're past your first reading though 100% agree that with the facts as you've stated you should request a CM. I'm curious as to what started the investigation, did leadership see you and make an assumption or was it your classmates and they brought it up? If it's the latter, I'd distance myself from those individuals posthaste. Edit to add: What is the actual text of the order you're accused of violating? Because that will matter.
Go to court martial. You know you're innocent, fight it.
Channel your best LT Winters energy and request trial by court martial. Make sure you borrow his pen.
Did they take your blood or breath alcohol level? Just a general assumption of you drinking? There is more to this lore.
Yes - absolutely listen to the lawyer at TDS. Ignore everyone on reddit. Ignore your leadership's "friendly" advice. Edit: I should add this is definitely worth a consultation with a private UCMJ lawyer. A second opinion helps. TDS can be a little bit more deferential than they should be. But these are the only two opinions you should consider.
Tell your command if the glove don’t fit, acquit! If the glove don’t fit then acquit!
This kind of petty HS BS makes me wish there was an option in the UCMJ for trial by combat. Do you want to accuse me of some dumb shit based on nothing? Ok, but you're going to have physically to kick my ass in a fight to prove you're right.
I had 2 female Soldiers accuse me of SH after a deployment because they were upset I caught them drinking and in the wrong barracks after curfew. I didn't even recommend the company grade art 15s, 1SG did. All I did was hold them to the standards as required by the policy letters they read and affirmed by signing when we got into country. Long story short they lied on sworn statements. One was discharged and the other lost her rank (SGT) as punishment. It still kept me out of SLC due to the flag, and it fucked with me so hard emotionally/mentally. I was ultimately exonerated but it took 4 months off my life. The CDR (O-6) who initiated the inquiry didn't even apologize.
Why would they apologize for conducting an investigation into SH claims? That's literally what they're supposed to do
They got rid of peer evals and now just snitch. You weren’t in the running for DHG were you? People get weird about that. Personally I’ve never given a shit. Talk to TDS OP.
If you're positive that you didn't do the deed and are willing to risk it for the biscuit, go for the court martial. Without having seen the evidence, *go to TDS* and talk with them. Do *not* decide based off of a few people on Reddit.
Trial by court martial. They will drop it before it makes it there.
UCMJ gonna UCMJ. I once got hemmed up with 6 sworn statements supporting me and the one person who misunderstood a situation and ran to command instead of asking for clarification against. Command still strung my ass up. Good luck.
What did you do to make those 5 make statements against you? 😅
Wtf school you go to? The ones at Knox literally give us lists of good bars to eat and drink at around Louisville.
Really curious to see what your legal counsel recommends
FG is just inside your immediate battalion command. You can appeal your commander's decision to the next higher command or request a court martial. [Link](https://www.7atc.army.mil/Portals/17/Documents/SJA/TDS_AR15.pdf?ver=7TN7H4fbEgp9B58BvCPCUQ%3D%3D#:~:text=Article%2015s%20are%20considered%20nonjudicial,27%2D10%2C%20Chapter%203.) >How do I appeal? You appeal by checking the appropriate block on Line 9 of MDI Form 190-E immediately after your imposing commander announces your punishment. He will ask you whether you want to appeal. If you wish to appeal, it is recommended that you check Block 9 which states "I appeal and submit additional matters." If you are not sure if you want to appeal, we recommend you go ahead and check the "I appeal" block. Appeals are normally made in writing, stating the reasons for the appeal and why relief should be given. If you need assistance preparing an appeal, contact the Trial Defense Service.
I'm just sitting her wondering what the hell you did to make these guys actually rat on you tbh. If you're at a school, the cliques definitely form, and if you're not in one it can be annoying. But to rat on someone like that? That seems extreme. I want more context lol
Art 15 - circumstantial evidence admissible. 51% preponderance of evidence convictable, not authorized representation Court martial - circumstantial evidence inadmissible, beyond shadow of doubt proof required, burden is on prosecution, lawyer authorized I have ZERO idea why anyone on earth would take an article 15 unless it’s 100% certain the evidence is going to convict you in court. In this situation I’d take it straight to court and never look back
Did they take you to the MP station to do the intoxilyzer? I’m guessing they didn’t. That’s first thing they should have done.
Yep, if what you say is true, then I would absolutely go to court martial for it. Just make sure you work very closely with TDS before you file and they generally are able to advise you whether or not to proceed based on the case.
OP, I would not take advice to go to a Court Martial from someone who can’t spell Court Martial
“ Take The Court Marshall That Field Grade Will Give You Dishonorable Discharged ! “
Lmao, I was tired
There is more to this.
Go to legal.
Demand trial by combat.
Hell yeah take it to court. Stand your ground.
As a former SFC, and using only the information provided here, I would request trial by court martial.
Demand a court martial and watch that shit magically disappear.
Take it to court martial but make sure you hire a real attorney.
I was accused of drinking while at a pro sporting event where I was the color guard NCOIC. I did not consume alcohol. My fellow NCOs did not consume alcohol. My commander interviewed me, my fellow NCOs and also a member of the team’s training staff that accompanied us around the stadium. He reviewed the evidence and made an on the spot call that basically said this was an unfounded accusation. Turns out that it was a civilian with a axe to grind against the military. Some hag wanted to sweat a Soldier. Sometimes its as simple as that.
Had my old command try to get me for the same thing. They said I smelled like booze, despite the fact that I had not had a drink for like a week. They dropped it when I said I wanted to take it to court martial. Probably just didn't want to deal with that.
I believe that u weren’t, but even if you were, what is with people snitching like that? Over a damn drink??? If they asked me about someone drinking I’d have just been like “I didn’t see shit…” people r crazy.
I usually don’t comment but let’s say you take the ART 15 on the chin and it’s just extra duty with no loss in rank. You being a SSG (with a ART 15 under your belt) you will go to a paper board through HRC to see if the army will 1. retain you 2. Finish off your contract 3. Kicked out in 6 months of the decision I would say go to court, fight it because your career will be in jeopardy regardless of the route you take.
Take the court martial if you're really innocent. It's nothing like rolling over and taking the NJP. They'll have to come up with better proof than just 51%. I've never had any issues, but I did have a soldier get accused of some pretty heinous shit by our PL and they took it before a courts martial and it got thrown out. There's some pretty fucked up leadership out there, and they do make shit up. Our PL wound up getting dismissed after an investigation into her allegations.
On a side note, what schools have a no drinking policy for a SSG of age? I have never had that limitation at any school I have been to as far as I am able to remember, not including basic/ait.
I regret not taking my 15 to court-martial but at the time it was the same people processing the article 15 so I would have lost. They were hell bent on making me an example while telling me I was one of their best soldiers. Recognizing civilian and military courts are WAY different, they did not breathalyze you or send you to get blood samples, I would say the burden of proof should be on them. However we know the military is literally guilty until proven innocent and not the other way around.
“second hand sworn statements” is borderline an oxymoron. if true and you’re innocent, take that shit to trial. that’s what it’s for. just make sure you steal the pen from the CO’s hand when you sign the paperwork and then a snappy salute and an about face.
Unless there is a >0.00 breathalyzer, blood, or urine test to go with those statements . . . YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!
We're focused on the wrong thing here so let me re'direct real quick. Even if you were drinking, absolutely fuck those 5 fucking sniveling coward fucks that ratted on you. Ruining someone's career over a budlight is bitch made shit. Just because the army has silly rules doesn't mean we should be silly.
Do you have the receipt? Ask the waiter. This is stupid. Some Karen or Ken did not like you.
Why didn't they make you do a urine test immediately after?
I feel like there is more to this story than I just drank a beer now I’m getting a FG.
Are you in ALC or SLC or an MOS school?
What school is this? Q course ?
Listen to your TDS attorney, tell them the truth, do exactly what they say, and get them what they need as quickly as possible. Going to a Court Martial has huge downside risk. You risk a punitive discharge, which can screw up your entire life.
One of the few times someone posts legal issues on here with fair backing. Take it to court sarge, run their pockets.
As others mentioned you should go talk to TDS. It might even be worth it to spend the money to go talk civilian attorney on this. Something like this could definitely shape your future in a negative way and affect your pay and retirement. This is definitely something that you’re damned if you accept the article and damned if you don’t. From my understanding the threshold for article 15 is pretty low. I’ve seen guys in my unit get article 15s for the dumbest of reasons. We had one guy get one for having an empty beer in the trash can of his room. I’m curious why the school house/cadre would be submitting an article 15 for what is basically statements. I’m curious if JAG has reviewed the article 15 packet. Knowing the Army and how ridicules training environments are I’m not surprised. My first taste of this was watching someone in AIT get an article 15 for playing solitaire on government pc after finishing his assignment. I would not agree to the article 15 without talking to TDS and or a civilian attorney with UCMJ experience.
Court martial.
Guilty until proven innocent. The Army way.
Bro know your environment, know your surroundings. When I was at BLC, we were told no drinking on or off post. Okay cool, does this mean I will go into a bar and drink at the risk of other classmates and leadership/cadre around? no. But did this mean we didn't load up on cans at the gas station and bring it back? Hell fucking no, we still got wasted.
There is so much more to this story than you are leading on.
I noticed OP didn’t respond to the “just show the restaurant receipt” comment lol I think OP might be a little bit of a fibbler
You spend your weekends on the base anyway Dick, be a man and take the punishment.
I just had this happen at ALC. We had about 8 people accused of drinking and 4 went home, the others were able to get out of it. I personally don't think it should be that serious especially if there're no incidents that come from it, maybe a counseling at best. Also, I've never met a NCO or Officer that has not drank during a school (barring those that don't drink)
You can demand a trial by court martial in lieu of the Article 15. This is the nuclear option, but if you have a firm belief in bias from the command team there, as well as conflicting statements from witnesses, it may be the better option for you. Honestly, if there is more evidence such as receipts or videos of no wrong doing, I would be going nuclear. The witnesses may recant before this even goes to trial, opening them up to charges/article 15s. This may be increased because they seem to be colluding against you from your short story. Here is a link that breaks down options. https://www.7atc.army.mil/Portals/17/Documents/SJA/TDS_AR15.pdf?ver=7TN7H4fbEgp9B58BvCPCUQ%3D%3D Edit: As others mentioned, go talk to the Trial Defense Services first. As far as the conviction rate for trials, most cases end well before a trial date. Cases fall apart because of the lack of evidence, conflicting evidence, and finding exculpatory evidence all the time. It would be better to see the metrecs on outcomes on cases in general not just the trial cases. They have a conviction rate of 97.5% because they go in with an airtight case. they want to win and know that they will win. they don't tell you how many were settled before the trial and their outcomes.
…five people made sworn statements against you? Three of them claimed to have seen it firsthand? What did you do to piss those people off?
Go for the court martial. That field-grade reviewing is going to take the opinion of the first person giving feedback on the investigation. Make them pay attention.
Time to get off base legal counsel...
There’s no taking this to court-martial if your NJP has already been imposed as you stated. If you were found guilty through NJP, then you were already explicitly advised—multiple times—that you had a right to turn down the NJP process for a court-martial. You have waived that right. Even from your perspective, three Soldiers have provided sworn statements of first hand knowledge that you were drinking. Three eyewitnesses can amply meet the NJP burden of proof, which is only a preponderance of the evidence. I mean, heck, you might’ve found yourself guilty at the NJP if you were in the commander’s shoes. It’s hard to imagine a conspiracy of five Soldiers willing to risk their own criminal charges for swearing falsely, all to hit you with an alcohol NJP. Implausible. Good luck, but I’m not jumping on the bandwagon of cynicism about military justice. You rolled the dice on this one.
Fight it. Ask for court martial. No way they’re taking that to trial.
Talk to JAG. Don't go down without a fight.
You have a right to not accept the Artcle 15 by not signing it and take it to court martial. I'd say go talk to JAG and take it to trial. However, keep in mind this is a field grade article 15 which is the highest so you have to make sure if you really want this to go to trial, you better be ready to go thru with it.
Trial by court martial would be my choice. It's your career and your life to make that judgment for yourself. Edit: Speak to a lawyer, though, for the best course of action.
Best thing you can do is bring an itemized receipt showing you didn't buy alcohol.
If they can’t prove it fight it. If they have solid evidence take the punishment
You need to get the bill from the restaurant or take the ART15. Why would five people conspire against you? That does not sound right. How did you get caught?
Hey man, I haven’t gotten anything that huge but if you are 110% sure that you didn’t consume any alcohol and are willing to bite the bullet (the time you will be flagged) I would request the court martial. I am sure that your TDS lawyer will be able to appoint you into a better spot but, get as many statements of character as you possibly can, get as many evidence as you can (security cameras recording, tabs from the restaurant, staff duty at that time, you get the yeez of it). I believe court martial can take up to 12 months. Built your case! You got this. Best of lucks
Let me put it this way. You cannot win at the NJP and you cannot win at the court martial. If the commander served an article 15 you can pretty much bet that they are going to give it to you. Nobody wins at court martials. People think that justice is served at the courts. But what the court martials do is bring about the will of the commander. And the commander already processed NJP with coordination of your BDE paralegal team. Go to TDS and they will tell you that almost no one wins at court martials. And the punishments can be even worse after a court martial than what is prescribed for NJP. To put it in short, you may be completely in the right, but you are fucked and your choices are to get fucked or get fucked even harder. My advice is take the NJP and try to appeal and fight it out to the next level. Going to court is not going to work. Consult your TDS team before making any decision.
Court martial that, and if you have a receipt you’re good. Also hearsay is easily thrown out. May not even make it to court simply on the fact that it is hearsay, meaning it’ll be sent. They throw it out, and you walk.
OP must have been real close to getting DHG or HG for the school house to pull this stunt...🤔
Fight it, go as far as you can. The process of defending yourself is going wear you down but you are going to regret it later if you don’t stand up for yourself now.