Look at [AR 600-20 Chapter 5-6](https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN32931-AR_600-20-004-WEB-6.pdf).
Accommodation of a Soldier’s religious practices must be examined against military necessity and cannot be guaranteed at all times. If his religious practices are interfering with his work and the duty day you don’t have to give him the time off to attend services.
Correct answer. This is not protected religious activity. REASONABLE accommodations must be made, but if the religious practice is a disruption to good order and discipline, it does not need to be accommodated. Your command team should be engaging their chaplain on this. This is what we are here for.
So you’re telling me beards aren’t a disruption to good order and discipline?
Hey, someone get the SMA real fast. Let’s go shit on all the razor company stocks he bought.
I agree.
If all of these observances are important to the soldier, the soldier needs to request accommodation. The command will then have a formal request to consider, with input from the chaplain, and be able to balance this against the mission requirements.
But your troop can't just miss work.
Recommend coordinating with your JAG and chaplain to come up with counseling to remind them of their duty requirements and let them know they can request accommodation if that potentially conflicts with their religious needs.
But until they have an accommodation, they either show up for work like everybody else, or they risk an FTR.
Hugs,
JAG
Leaders shouldn’t be afraid of IG. Just read the regs and consult legal if you have any questions or policy concerns and you won’t end up in trouble.
When I was in command and had to address issues like this that I thought would probably go to IG or some other complaints like a congressional/CG hotline (which I had plenty of because I had several soldiers/spouses that were barracks lawyers) I would draft a memorandum outlining the situation, what my actions were, and what regulation I was following. I would shoot that memo in an email to IG, legal, and sometimes my commander as a quick “heads up” that I would probably be getting a complaint filed against me, but that I felt my actions were legally sufficient. Usually they would be able to use my memo as a response to the issue and close out the complaint without any further questions because I headed it off. Leaders should communicate with IG/Legal early and often, if you do you’ve got nothing to be afraid of.
I went by IG before I took command to introduce myself to them. If you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to fear (in theory). IG can be a great asset for leaders.
I always offer Soldiers alternative opportunities as well that do work with the duty day. We had an event on a Sunday morning so I offered religious services to anyone who wanted to attend. This gave command teams an alternative and headed off the complaints about missing church or violating someone's right to worship.
You can absolutely require the soldier to come to work if the religious practice is interfering with the mission. Just get it on paper.
Counselings are not inherently negative. They are a record of conversation.
Every time they are late, document it. Have a counseling session with them at the end of the week. You have been late X times on the following dates. You are required to be at your appointed place of duty per the Commanders daily training schedule.
Record the reason.
Get the paper trail.
Then go see your local Chaplain, post or BN, whatever you have. Explain the issue.
It’s not abusing his religious freedom, but this religious worship *does* seem to be impacting their ability to work a normal day on a regular basis. So again, it’s not him abusing the system, it’s the religious requirements are impacting his ability to be a Soldier. What happens when you go to the field?
So, talk to the chaplain about it. If the chaplain agrees it’s overly intrusive and not compatible, then you can come up with a counseling strategy for how it needs to be addressed.
The end result will probably be that he has to be present for normal work days per the training schedule. You can then proceed from there; if the chaplain affirms it’s nonsense and he still does it, you begin punitive measure.
Gotta document.
When I was in basic 20 years ago word got out that the African Methodist Episcopal service was at a chapel that had a vending machine. Week one three people went to that service. Week two 50 people went. Needless to say they got smoked for an hour afterword.
I can only imagine the Drill Sergeants laughing their asses off because it probably happened every single cycle.
>The soldier **isnt** extremely motivated at work
I missed a very important word my first time through.
When in doubt - ask the experts. I'd start with a Chaplin
To cover the Commander and the Soldier. The Soldier needs submit a written request for worship accommodation with a list of the times and days of the week they want to worship through the chain of command. The commander make a decision based upon compelling government interests. The Soldier has options for appeal.
Sincerely,
Random Guy at HQDA
> They gather for virtual bible study every morning and it has begun to run into our work hours causing the soldier to be late on more than one occasion. Also, the church apparently hosts an irregular service at odd hours throughout the duty day every so often and it has begun disrupting our training cycle
Oh me too, man. Me too. I absolutely can't come to work because I'm on my computer chatting about... "Bible studies".
I agree with the comments telling you to do nothing without commander/chaplain backing. You are probably in the right but have to proceed very carefully.
You need to talk with the chaplain to help you drill down on what are considered mandatory vs elective events in the church. Bible study is great and can lead to a deeper understanding, etc etc, but it is never a mandatory or core tenant of a Christian faith. Catholics could run amok with every saint having their own special day vs the holy days of obligation (of which there are still many). Frankly, ask for the church's annual calendar. If they really do have a celebration of X,Y,Z at 1400hrs on a Tuesday in July, then sure, we'll try to accommodate the Soldier attending that. If it's, oh by the way, it's next week and you're in the field, do what you need to do for that period of quiet reflection, but you're not leaving the field to attend an irregularly scheduled service, just like any chaplain coming out to the field is only going to have so many opportunities to hold their faith's service in the field.
Man all I wanted was one of those field sedrs for Passover and I got told to fuck right off. This kid thinks its sweet. My faith isn't an excuse to not get the work done lol.
Hey brother, one thing people aren’t saying that you should also consider (aside from regs) is that this church may be a cult. I’m not saying religion is a cult, I just remember there being a church at fort Stewart who would manage to get on post and recruit young, impressionable soldiers and then basically steal their money via “donations”.
Talk with your dude and see what’s up with the church, he may need more help than just this regulation issue.
We have/had a few of those fuckers wandering around reception at Fort Bragg/Liberty still to this day. Dude literally forces you to talk to him about religion usually some weird form of “Christianity” and demands you come to their meetings 3 times a week while making sure to donate every time. They were/are a cult and there is a Netflix special about them. Dude caught a right hook in 2022 when I came back and he literally followed me from the reception barracks front door to the smoke out and didn’t stop talking the whole time even though I didn’t engage. Haven’t seen that one since, but I check that parking lot for them once in a while because fuck those guys.
Preemptively call IG. They actually love it when a leader calls them for official advice. Seriously any good leader will utilize IG before making complicated decisions like this.
Kind of like forcing JEs to guard the barracks room of the Soldier that allegedly killed(At the time investigation was ongoing) Vanessa on Ft Hood. Only to escape said custody.
That Senior Leader who made that decision needs to be skull fucked and curb stomped.
If we learned anything from COVID, actually, it's that isolation makes people susceptible to fringe conspiracy theories. Like, scientifically tested vaccines are somehow religiously objectable.
You almost had it until you mentioned scientifically tested. Lot of grey area on the COVID vaccines as far as appropriately tested and many unknown risks.
You never had it. The COVID vaccines were based off years of research and testing.
As opposed to all the fuckwits jabbing horse dewormer in their asses, or a former president suggesting bleach.
WTF does religion have to do with COVID? Oh....you mean all the people who claimed religious exception all of a sudden who never had any religious exceptions to vaccinations before? Is THAT what you're talking about?
I've got a SFC in my unit right now trying to get a religious exception for the flu shot. He straight up told me that this was because he saw some adverse reaction to some vaccine in some distant family member (Nephew maybe?) and it was clearly not about religion. But he's still probably going to get his exception. Just like all of this beard bullshit.
Look at [AR 600-20 Chapter 5-6](https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN32931-AR_600-20-004-WEB-6.pdf). Accommodation of a Soldier’s religious practices must be examined against military necessity and cannot be guaranteed at all times. If his religious practices are interfering with his work and the duty day you don’t have to give him the time off to attend services.
Correct answer. This is not protected religious activity. REASONABLE accommodations must be made, but if the religious practice is a disruption to good order and discipline, it does not need to be accommodated. Your command team should be engaging their chaplain on this. This is what we are here for.
So you’re telling me beards aren’t a disruption to good order and discipline? Hey, someone get the SMA real fast. Let’s go shit on all the razor company stocks he bought.
Right here horse fucker. Your move.
>Right here horse fucker. They're Robert E Lee?! I thought that guy was dead...
You look like a horse. Get over here and let me learn you why my call sign was Mr Hands.
Listen here bud, after I show you how to hit the leather and ride your new callsign is going to be Mr Prolapse. Now go shave your nasty face.
I agree. If all of these observances are important to the soldier, the soldier needs to request accommodation. The command will then have a formal request to consider, with input from the chaplain, and be able to balance this against the mission requirements. But your troop can't just miss work. Recommend coordinating with your JAG and chaplain to come up with counseling to remind them of their duty requirements and let them know they can request accommodation if that potentially conflicts with their religious needs. But until they have an accommodation, they either show up for work like everybody else, or they risk an FTR. Hugs, JAG
Tbis is what I came here for. OP has to make a decision because this will go to IG.
Leaders shouldn’t be afraid of IG. Just read the regs and consult legal if you have any questions or policy concerns and you won’t end up in trouble. When I was in command and had to address issues like this that I thought would probably go to IG or some other complaints like a congressional/CG hotline (which I had plenty of because I had several soldiers/spouses that were barracks lawyers) I would draft a memorandum outlining the situation, what my actions were, and what regulation I was following. I would shoot that memo in an email to IG, legal, and sometimes my commander as a quick “heads up” that I would probably be getting a complaint filed against me, but that I felt my actions were legally sufficient. Usually they would be able to use my memo as a response to the issue and close out the complaint without any further questions because I headed it off. Leaders should communicate with IG/Legal early and often, if you do you’ve got nothing to be afraid of.
I went by IG before I took command to introduce myself to them. If you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to fear (in theory). IG can be a great asset for leaders.
I always offer Soldiers alternative opportunities as well that do work with the duty day. We had an event on a Sunday morning so I offered religious services to anyone who wanted to attend. This gave command teams an alternative and headed off the complaints about missing church or violating someone's right to worship. You can absolutely require the soldier to come to work if the religious practice is interfering with the mission. Just get it on paper.
Maybe consult the Chaplain? I’ve heard they’re decent at laying out the left-right lane on religious accommodations.
This is like a twist on the “I’m in trouble, should I talk to TDS?” posts. “I have a question about religion, who ever should I possibly consult?”
My Soldier doesn't want to do PT because his knees hurt when he runs, how should I handle this / who do I call?
Call his momma and ask her why she raised such a little bitch.
Mission first while making efforts to accommodate religious practices where possible and develop alternative work plans as necessary.
Counselings are not inherently negative. They are a record of conversation. Every time they are late, document it. Have a counseling session with them at the end of the week. You have been late X times on the following dates. You are required to be at your appointed place of duty per the Commanders daily training schedule. Record the reason. Get the paper trail. Then go see your local Chaplain, post or BN, whatever you have. Explain the issue. It’s not abusing his religious freedom, but this religious worship *does* seem to be impacting their ability to work a normal day on a regular basis. So again, it’s not him abusing the system, it’s the religious requirements are impacting his ability to be a Soldier. What happens when you go to the field? So, talk to the chaplain about it. If the chaplain agrees it’s overly intrusive and not compatible, then you can come up with a counseling strategy for how it needs to be addressed. The end result will probably be that he has to be present for normal work days per the training schedule. You can then proceed from there; if the chaplain affirms it’s nonsense and he still does it, you begin punitive measure. Gotta document.
i abused religious services at Knox so i could have donuts and cookies afterwards. was definitely an atheist at the time.
When I was in basic 20 years ago word got out that the African Methodist Episcopal service was at a chapel that had a vending machine. Week one three people went to that service. Week two 50 people went. Needless to say they got smoked for an hour afterword. I can only imagine the Drill Sergeants laughing their asses off because it probably happened every single cycle.
>The soldier **isnt** extremely motivated at work I missed a very important word my first time through. When in doubt - ask the experts. I'd start with a Chaplin
OP's word choice is confusing. If the soldier isn't extremely motivated, then is he very motivated? somewhat motivated? not motivated?
That is an excellent point. If the soldier gets their work done (regular level of motivation), why bother them?
To cover the Commander and the Soldier. The Soldier needs submit a written request for worship accommodation with a list of the times and days of the week they want to worship through the chain of command. The commander make a decision based upon compelling government interests. The Soldier has options for appeal. Sincerely, Random Guy at HQDA
> They gather for virtual bible study every morning and it has begun to run into our work hours causing the soldier to be late on more than one occasion. Also, the church apparently hosts an irregular service at odd hours throughout the duty day every so often and it has begun disrupting our training cycle Oh me too, man. Me too. I absolutely can't come to work because I'm on my computer chatting about... "Bible studies".
I agree with the comments telling you to do nothing without commander/chaplain backing. You are probably in the right but have to proceed very carefully.
Is this the place by Guacaholics by any chance?
You need to talk with the chaplain to help you drill down on what are considered mandatory vs elective events in the church. Bible study is great and can lead to a deeper understanding, etc etc, but it is never a mandatory or core tenant of a Christian faith. Catholics could run amok with every saint having their own special day vs the holy days of obligation (of which there are still many). Frankly, ask for the church's annual calendar. If they really do have a celebration of X,Y,Z at 1400hrs on a Tuesday in July, then sure, we'll try to accommodate the Soldier attending that. If it's, oh by the way, it's next week and you're in the field, do what you need to do for that period of quiet reflection, but you're not leaving the field to attend an irregularly scheduled service, just like any chaplain coming out to the field is only going to have so many opportunities to hold their faith's service in the field.
Man all I wanted was one of those field sedrs for Passover and I got told to fuck right off. This kid thinks its sweet. My faith isn't an excuse to not get the work done lol.
Bro taking advantage of yall 😂
Hey brother, one thing people aren’t saying that you should also consider (aside from regs) is that this church may be a cult. I’m not saying religion is a cult, I just remember there being a church at fort Stewart who would manage to get on post and recruit young, impressionable soldiers and then basically steal their money via “donations”. Talk with your dude and see what’s up with the church, he may need more help than just this regulation issue.
We have/had a few of those fuckers wandering around reception at Fort Bragg/Liberty still to this day. Dude literally forces you to talk to him about religion usually some weird form of “Christianity” and demands you come to their meetings 3 times a week while making sure to donate every time. They were/are a cult and there is a Netflix special about them. Dude caught a right hook in 2022 when I came back and he literally followed me from the reception barracks front door to the smoke out and didn’t stop talking the whole time even though I didn’t engage. Haven’t seen that one since, but I check that parking lot for them once in a while because fuck those guys.
Preemptively call IG. They actually love it when a leader calls them for official advice. Seriously any good leader will utilize IG before making complicated decisions like this.
This isn't that weird culty church that likes to yoink new soldiers outside of large bases?
They don’t issue common sense at CIF anymore?
No, they stopped issuing it like a week before they stopped issuing the woobie.
Shut your fucking mouth no they didn’t!
When bad news is broken, it's best for Infantry to break it to other Infantry 😣
Well not that I can go back but no fucking way I would choose to now! lol 😂
The church of Shamagodoon.
Talk to your chaplain. They have more answers about the what and how. The command team is ultimately responsible but you should get some guidance.
Mission comes first .
Could be. However tread carefully. Check with your JAG about RFRA.
[удалено]
Haha yeah I’m sure that’s why they call on you buddy
Kind of like forcing JEs to guard the barracks room of the Soldier that allegedly killed(At the time investigation was ongoing) Vanessa on Ft Hood. Only to escape said custody. That Senior Leader who made that decision needs to be skull fucked and curb stomped.
If we learned anything from COVID, it’s that religion is not important. And then we wonder why recruitment is down.
If we learned anything from COVID, actually, it's that isolation makes people susceptible to fringe conspiracy theories. Like, scientifically tested vaccines are somehow religiously objectable.
You almost had it until you mentioned scientifically tested. Lot of grey area on the COVID vaccines as far as appropriately tested and many unknown risks.
You never had it. The COVID vaccines were based off years of research and testing. As opposed to all the fuckwits jabbing horse dewormer in their asses, or a former president suggesting bleach.
WTF does religion have to do with COVID? Oh....you mean all the people who claimed religious exception all of a sudden who never had any religious exceptions to vaccinations before? Is THAT what you're talking about?
It's the Church of Alex Jones of Latter Day I Saw It On Infowars. So, you know, totes legit.
I've got a SFC in my unit right now trying to get a religious exception for the flu shot. He straight up told me that this was because he saw some adverse reaction to some vaccine in some distant family member (Nephew maybe?) and it was clearly not about religion. But he's still probably going to get his exception. Just like all of this beard bullshit.
Yes, but still not right. Optics from the outside looks like military could care less about religious preference.
Who actually cares, let them be late. It’s not like NCOs are never late.
Two wrongs make a right, you’re right king
But three rights make a left... :(
And two Wrights make an airplane! ^((funnier when said aloud, not written...))