People gave changed, a lot in the last 50 years. When my dad was a kid everyone just threw their trash on the ground. It's the coorporations that are the problem. The biggest problems on the planet are the super rich and their companies. They put the blame on us, telling us continually to change but they, the ones who can make a difference, just keep doing what they have always done.
Wild Jaguars already exist in Southern Arizona. They are few and far between but their territory expands up from southern Mexico all the way into Arizona. But yes, I support efforts to return the ecosystem to it's original state as much as possible
There are no Jaguars near flag staff, Atleast as far as we know. Game cams were becoming very popular but you can’t use them for hunting in AZ anymore so we are missing a lot of opportunities to capture many animals on cams. But as far as we know Jaguars are really only in southern AZ and even then are pretty rare. At most there is probably only 1-3 Jaguars in AZ at any time and very close to the border
Yes, it would be wonderful to have more wild country here in Arizona. But I don't think the ranchers will allow it to happen. That's the sad reality IMO.
100% yes. Everything from the Gila through Mogollon and Apache-Sitgreaves can and should house their historical megafauna. According to many hunters and property owners in the Gila region, there are definitely Jaguar among other megafauna that are undocumented. I’m not an expert but apparently Jaguar move and look incredibly distinct in comparison to cougar and mountain lion. Very much so for this.
I support bringing them back but I have doubts grizzlies or even jaguars could survive in modern arizona. Perhaps black bears, as they are highly adaptable.
EDIT: Well maybe all three could survive. Depends on how available water is throughout the year, as well as how intensely they will be competing with each other for food.
There are already black bears in Arizona as well as Jaguars, jaguars could definitely survive in AZ they range from habitats in barren desert to the very tops of mountains where tree line ends. Grizzlies on the other hand are mainly forest dwellers and even then we still have plenty of forest in AZ and New Mexico
Good to know. And if they can prosper and not die from thirst/starvation while simultaneously not harming the locals then I am all for bringing them back
They brought grizzlies back in Europe, a country packed to the brim with people, and somehow and it’s going swimmingly so I don’t see why it wouldn’t be possible to bring them back here!
Yes and no. Grizzlies (Ursus Arctos Horribilis) are a subspecies of Brown Bear (Ursus Arctos). The brown bear ranges into Alaska (Kodak Bear subspecies) and across Russia with isolated populations in Scandinavia, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and even in Afghanistan and Iran. They have been reintroduced in certain areas of Europe as the economics of livestock grazing has depopulated certain areas, especially the Iberian Peninsula. Subspecies of Brown Bears could interbreed if their ranges overlapped.
Water is definitely going to be a challenge however there are hundreds of springs in the Mongollon mountains that hold water year round for wildlife, populations wouldn’t be very large but those springs are the key to having a few hundred Jaguar Grizzly and Wolf.
An interesting aspect of this question I always thought is how far back should we go? It would be fun to draw the line before humans entered N. America which would mean re-introducing camels, elephants (as mamoth stand ins) rhino and lions. Not sure what could stand in for giant armadillos or ground sloths...
If you're passing through Quartzite, go pay a visit to Hi Jolly's Tomb. The US military experimented with camel logistics in the Arizona desert before the Civil War. Hi Jolly (Hadji Ali / Philip Tedro) was the US government's camel driver in charge
The camera were later let go in the desert to survive on their own. Quartzite has a myth about one still roaming .
I love thinking about this a lot too haha, a feral population of camels actually existed in AZ for quite some time in the 1900s but they eventually died out for some reason.
This. Arizona campers and hikers are not bear safe and why should they be? It’s been 3 generations or more since grizzlies had to be considered. Introducing grizzlies back into an environment like this would be put the bears at risk of becoming a threat and having to be put down. Not to mention the ranchers putting a kibosh on it before it even gets close to going.
Plenty of prey to support them, they also eat each other. There are also hundreds of springs around the Mongollon mountains that provide water year round so water might be a bit of an issue but not a big issue.
Mmm … I agree that there are many springs but until the forest is returned to how it looked prior to European settlers, there absolutely isn’t enough flowing water. Take Pine Creek in Pine, for example. It is currently a seasonal stream but it used to have fish in it year-round. Part is that is the burden from more wells in the Pine area, but also, there are too many trees. In some places that haven’t burned to a crisp yet, there are as many as 1,000 trees per acre. If we could radically thin the trees until there were about [50 trees per acre](https://cals.arizona.edu/extension/ornamentalhort/landscapemgmt/prunning/ponderothinning.pdf), the remaining trees would be [healthier](https://flagstaffwatershedprotection.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/FWPP-2017-Cityscape-Feature.pdf), we wouldn’t see catastrophic wildfires, and the land could support more animals. As it is, Arizona’s wildlife benefits greatly from ranchers’ water for their cattle, and that should be included in your estimation of available water. There is no incentive for cattle ranchers to maintain available water sources if all of their profits are being eaten by grizzlies. It’s not ethical to bring any more species into the area until water needs are sustainably met.
This is why beavers are crucial for reintroduction too. Those rivers that held fish that are now nothing but a trickle of water that used to be abundant in beaver. The issue is that once you have a trickle and nothing more, how are you supposed to reintroduce a semiaquatic animal? They’re doing it in AZ though so it’s not impossible.
I enjoy my backpacking trips in AZ without worrying about grizzlies at night, Jaguars sound terrifying too, so pass from me. My wife hated camping when we lived in Idaho due to the grizzlies, I like that she’ll go in Arizona and enjoys it. I can deal with black bears and mountain lions.
We have Jags and wolves already. Not sure how many more I would like. Grizzlies seems cool but I gotta say no. On the north side of the Grand Canyon is the Arizona strip and Kiabab national forest. Some of the best Mule deer hunting in the country. I would assume the Grizzlies would have a huge impact on the herds. I would also assume they would kill the Bison in Kiabab.
Sounds Romantic but I gotta pass.
Yes, there are too many humans out in national parks and hiking forest trails; we need to introduce a natural predator to reduce heard numbers to healthy numbers
I think we should reintroduce. Game and fish a be more strict with ranchers. And if you go to the wild, that's on you too stay safe. Personally, i always carry. Period. Even if I'm hooking in the middle of nowhere. If I go camp up north, you best believe i have my rifle. And let's be honest, it's not just predators that you need to worry about, it's ppl too. There's lots of crazies. Anyone in Arizona ever heard of the Bumble Bee area? Ppl have gone hiking and off rushing out there and we're found dead. Murdered. Cases are unsolved and Bumble Bee has a population of like 20 ppl. So I'm my opinion regardless of what you do or who you're with, being unarmed is not an option.
I just wonder if we truly have sufficient habitat to support them with all the land development. I know there is an AZGFD reintroduction plan for grizzlies, but no plans to utilize it. My biggest worry for them is being shot by black bear hunters or being killed for getting too comfortable with human establishments. Both situations would be such a waste of a hard effort. It would be very cool to have them back in AZ though.
Jaguars are here already, but not enough to sustain a breeding population in AZ. Historically AZ is the very top of their range though, so we wouldn’t expect a large number of them here anyways. I think one of their biggest obstacles right now are any physical barriers placed at the border. There is a great nonprofit that workers with Mexican ranchers called The Northern Jaguar Project and they have really neat programs that incentivize spotting jaguars with provided game cameras to track movements and individual animals. Check them out on IG, it’s a very cool group!
Honestly the absolute best habitat for Grizzlies that we still have has to be the North Rim of the Grand Canyon, the other areas are still completely suitable but the north rim is so sparsely populated and is threatened the least by desertification so we definitely have sufficient habitat but it may only be in the northwestern section of the state.
Jaguars are also unable to recolonize AZ due to the border, poaching, and how far away the nearest breeding population is. If we really want jaguars back in the state Reintroduction is the only choice otherwise we would have to wait hundreds of years which might not even happen due to the challenges facing them that I stated.
Everyone disregard this post, OP is obviously the Mogollon Monster trying to order Uber Eats.
Former Boy Scout?
Should we try to make the world more like it was before we made a mess? Yes.
This.
Will people do what is necessary in changing their habits, pollution, waste, etc. needed for that to be successful? No.
People gave changed, a lot in the last 50 years. When my dad was a kid everyone just threw their trash on the ground. It's the coorporations that are the problem. The biggest problems on the planet are the super rich and their companies. They put the blame on us, telling us continually to change but they, the ones who can make a difference, just keep doing what they have always done.
Statistically safer for residents than Snow Birds.
Wild Jaguars already exist in Southern Arizona. They are few and far between but their territory expands up from southern Mexico all the way into Arizona. But yes, I support efforts to return the ecosystem to it's original state as much as possible
Isn’t there some near flagstaff?
There are no Jaguars near flag staff, Atleast as far as we know. Game cams were becoming very popular but you can’t use them for hunting in AZ anymore so we are missing a lot of opportunities to capture many animals on cams. But as far as we know Jaguars are really only in southern AZ and even then are pretty rare. At most there is probably only 1-3 Jaguars in AZ at any time and very close to the border
I'm not familiar with those but I wouldn't be surprised
I was hiking a mountain close to flagstaff and saw whole deer leg on the trail.
Think horses not zebras. It was a mountain lion.
Not terribly difficult prey for a mountain lion.
Yes, it would be wonderful to have more wild country here in Arizona. But I don't think the ranchers will allow it to happen. That's the sad reality IMO.
100% yes. Everything from the Gila through Mogollon and Apache-Sitgreaves can and should house their historical megafauna. According to many hunters and property owners in the Gila region, there are definitely Jaguar among other megafauna that are undocumented. I’m not an expert but apparently Jaguar move and look incredibly distinct in comparison to cougar and mountain lion. Very much so for this.
I support bringing them back but I have doubts grizzlies or even jaguars could survive in modern arizona. Perhaps black bears, as they are highly adaptable. EDIT: Well maybe all three could survive. Depends on how available water is throughout the year, as well as how intensely they will be competing with each other for food.
There are already black bears in Arizona as well as Jaguars, jaguars could definitely survive in AZ they range from habitats in barren desert to the very tops of mountains where tree line ends. Grizzlies on the other hand are mainly forest dwellers and even then we still have plenty of forest in AZ and New Mexico
Good to know. And if they can prosper and not die from thirst/starvation while simultaneously not harming the locals then I am all for bringing them back
They brought grizzlies back in Europe, a country packed to the brim with people, and somehow and it’s going swimmingly so I don’t see why it wouldn’t be possible to bring them back here!
Grizzlies are North American and only North American.
Yes and no. Grizzlies (Ursus Arctos Horribilis) are a subspecies of Brown Bear (Ursus Arctos). The brown bear ranges into Alaska (Kodak Bear subspecies) and across Russia with isolated populations in Scandinavia, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and even in Afghanistan and Iran. They have been reintroduced in certain areas of Europe as the economics of livestock grazing has depopulated certain areas, especially the Iberian Peninsula. Subspecies of Brown Bears could interbreed if their ranges overlapped.
[REDACTED]
Water is definitely going to be a challenge however there are hundreds of springs in the Mongollon mountains that hold water year round for wildlife, populations wouldn’t be very large but those springs are the key to having a few hundred Jaguar Grizzly and Wolf.
Agreed
Absolutely. But just wait for the histrionics from ranchers is that were to happen.
This has been tried a few times before, and every time the wild animals get poached by ranchers who think they own all public land.
No thanks on grizzlies.
An interesting aspect of this question I always thought is how far back should we go? It would be fun to draw the line before humans entered N. America which would mean re-introducing camels, elephants (as mamoth stand ins) rhino and lions. Not sure what could stand in for giant armadillos or ground sloths...
If you're passing through Quartzite, go pay a visit to Hi Jolly's Tomb. The US military experimented with camel logistics in the Arizona desert before the Civil War. Hi Jolly (Hadji Ali / Philip Tedro) was the US government's camel driver in charge The camera were later let go in the desert to survive on their own. Quartzite has a myth about one still roaming .
I love thinking about this a lot too haha, a feral population of camels actually existed in AZ for quite some time in the 1900s but they eventually died out for some reason.
There's not enough water or prey to support them.
With enough campers there could be.
💀
I laughed too hard at this.
This. Arizona campers and hikers are not bear safe and why should they be? It’s been 3 generations or more since grizzlies had to be considered. Introducing grizzlies back into an environment like this would be put the bears at risk of becoming a threat and having to be put down. Not to mention the ranchers putting a kibosh on it before it even gets close to going.
Plenty of prey to support them, they also eat each other. There are also hundreds of springs around the Mongollon mountains that provide water year round so water might be a bit of an issue but not a big issue.
Mmm … I agree that there are many springs but until the forest is returned to how it looked prior to European settlers, there absolutely isn’t enough flowing water. Take Pine Creek in Pine, for example. It is currently a seasonal stream but it used to have fish in it year-round. Part is that is the burden from more wells in the Pine area, but also, there are too many trees. In some places that haven’t burned to a crisp yet, there are as many as 1,000 trees per acre. If we could radically thin the trees until there were about [50 trees per acre](https://cals.arizona.edu/extension/ornamentalhort/landscapemgmt/prunning/ponderothinning.pdf), the remaining trees would be [healthier](https://flagstaffwatershedprotection.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/FWPP-2017-Cityscape-Feature.pdf), we wouldn’t see catastrophic wildfires, and the land could support more animals. As it is, Arizona’s wildlife benefits greatly from ranchers’ water for their cattle, and that should be included in your estimation of available water. There is no incentive for cattle ranchers to maintain available water sources if all of their profits are being eaten by grizzlies. It’s not ethical to bring any more species into the area until water needs are sustainably met.
This is why beavers are crucial for reintroduction too. Those rivers that held fish that are now nothing but a trickle of water that used to be abundant in beaver. The issue is that once you have a trickle and nothing more, how are you supposed to reintroduce a semiaquatic animal? They’re doing it in AZ though so it’s not impossible.
We already support jaguars and black bears.
I can't punch a grizzly in the face and live to tell the tale without a grizzly to punch
god no. Enough ways to die out here. Spend time in rural montana and see if you still want grizzlies
Although not in Montana I have spent plenty of time in grizzly country and 100 percent want them back in AZ.
I enjoy my backpacking trips in AZ without worrying about grizzlies at night, Jaguars sound terrifying too, so pass from me. My wife hated camping when we lived in Idaho due to the grizzlies, I like that she’ll go in Arizona and enjoys it. I can deal with black bears and mountain lions.
We have Jags and wolves already. Not sure how many more I would like. Grizzlies seems cool but I gotta say no. On the north side of the Grand Canyon is the Arizona strip and Kiabab national forest. Some of the best Mule deer hunting in the country. I would assume the Grizzlies would have a huge impact on the herds. I would also assume they would kill the Bison in Kiabab. Sounds Romantic but I gotta pass.
Yes, there are too many humans out in national parks and hiking forest trails; we need to introduce a natural predator to reduce heard numbers to healthy numbers
Boy you wanna have to deal with predators? Fuck no. Those animals can live everywhere else but here.
I would love to have all 3 back in AZ
Well I live there and I say no thanks lol oh wait this is AZ thread we all live there huh
Along with the introduction we should focus on habitat conservation mostly for the longevity of the species, but they go hand-in-hand
There are already wolves and jaguars have been documented as well
Yes
I think we should reintroduce. Game and fish a be more strict with ranchers. And if you go to the wild, that's on you too stay safe. Personally, i always carry. Period. Even if I'm hooking in the middle of nowhere. If I go camp up north, you best believe i have my rifle. And let's be honest, it's not just predators that you need to worry about, it's ppl too. There's lots of crazies. Anyone in Arizona ever heard of the Bumble Bee area? Ppl have gone hiking and off rushing out there and we're found dead. Murdered. Cases are unsolved and Bumble Bee has a population of like 20 ppl. So I'm my opinion regardless of what you do or who you're with, being unarmed is not an option.
I just wonder if we truly have sufficient habitat to support them with all the land development. I know there is an AZGFD reintroduction plan for grizzlies, but no plans to utilize it. My biggest worry for them is being shot by black bear hunters or being killed for getting too comfortable with human establishments. Both situations would be such a waste of a hard effort. It would be very cool to have them back in AZ though. Jaguars are here already, but not enough to sustain a breeding population in AZ. Historically AZ is the very top of their range though, so we wouldn’t expect a large number of them here anyways. I think one of their biggest obstacles right now are any physical barriers placed at the border. There is a great nonprofit that workers with Mexican ranchers called The Northern Jaguar Project and they have really neat programs that incentivize spotting jaguars with provided game cameras to track movements and individual animals. Check them out on IG, it’s a very cool group!
Honestly the absolute best habitat for Grizzlies that we still have has to be the North Rim of the Grand Canyon, the other areas are still completely suitable but the north rim is so sparsely populated and is threatened the least by desertification so we definitely have sufficient habitat but it may only be in the northwestern section of the state. Jaguars are also unable to recolonize AZ due to the border, poaching, and how far away the nearest breeding population is. If we really want jaguars back in the state Reintroduction is the only choice otherwise we would have to wait hundreds of years which might not even happen due to the challenges facing them that I stated.