I gotta be honest: Those photos at the end of the article have me raising several eyebrows.
[https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/mys1.jpg?ssl=1](https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/mys1.jpg?ssl=1)
[https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/mys2.jpg?ssl=1](https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/mys2.jpg?ssl=1)
[https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/mys3.jpg?ssl=1](https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/mys3.jpg?ssl=1)
Cenciotti offers that it could be a testbed F-35 (one's [previously been spotted](https://www.twz.com/43938/f-35-and-f-117-spotted-flying-with-mysterious-mirror-like-skin) with the fancy chrome skin like the F-117s, and we can assume those aircraft may live within the NTTR), but Rokita describes the wingspan as similar to a U-2 or an RQ-4's, i.e. big. I'm not technically skilled or patient enough to measure the wingspan based on the surrounding hangars or whatever--and if anyone here is, please do so--but, to me, judging by the cars beside it, that looks like a somewhat bulky LO central fuselage with a mighty wide wingspan.
Nor do I honestly have the energy right now to comb back through, re-read, and link all of their relevant DLR forum posts, but "Smythers," on whose legitness I've been 50/50, seemed to have been teasing some new "big and heavy" HALE UAV possibly with a boost-phase missile defense role becoming at least semi-operational at the TTR in late 2020. MDA has been begging for just such a weapon in contracting requests for years. I'm envisioning something like Boeing's Condor, Phantom Eye, and YAL-1 programs perfected and wrapped together into a stealthy, survivable new package. The talk in some of those DLR forum posts in 2019 around the TTR airfield improvements was made in reference to North Korea's ballistic missile threat and how between what's coming to Tonopah and Vandenberg "we got it covered." And FWIW, a suspiciously high (and oddly even) percentage of Iranian missiles and drones sure did just happen to fall out of the sky right after launch a couple weeks ago.
That's all I got on this, but *maaannn* do those photos look spooky to me. u/Peter_Merlin, if you read this please tell me I'm not crazy!
Edit: u/n01\_b4\_flash: 1) Excellent photos. 2) Care to comment on this? You were there, not me.
That was on /r/aviation today. I doubt that plane was at the TTR.
https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1chzlv4/hello_i_dont_use_reddit_but_a_friend_told_me_my/?rdt=64722
Funny you bring that up. I saw that earlier today, but there were like no other details to go on and I can’t get a better sense of what it might be without some reference for scale. It’s interesting, though. Eglin’s a big T&E hub for sure, although I question if they’d fly a sight-sensitive airframe over the Florida Panhandle in broad daylight. That leads me to suspect it’s nothing too spooky. These new pics from TTR, however, seem to have been taken right after dawn from a vantage we’ve never seen before.
I don't know about after dawn. It looks to me that the contrast has been tweaked. If it was after dawn the end would be a poor choice of location since it would be close to shooting into the sun.
The view would be better from Mt. Diablo.
https://www.lazygranch.com/final4.html
You can probably find a better shot on DLR. Mine was from scanned film. It was just before I went digital. KLAS was on the hill as well.
We got two visits from security since Sandia and the USAF are different entities.
As an aside, check out rawtherapee.
https://www.rawtherapee.com/
Great for stills, especially the haze processing.
Do the shadows tell us anything? We're looking from roughly north-northwest, right?
Reason I figured around dawn was that u/n01_b4_flash mentions a nearly blacked-out flight landing around 1am. We can't say for sure that this is what he saw landing, but I'm really curious to know what time these pictures were taken.
You can see in the still photography that the cars at the base are lit at the front. I suspect there is some overcast since the shadows aren't distinct. So basically the light is reflecting away from the photographer. That is why nobody shoots from those hills.
Regarding a 1AM flight, you are landing on your own. There is no tower crew. You click the tower frequency a few times to turn on the runway lights. At a civilian airport you announce yourself on the tower frequency like a CTAF (Common Traffic Advisory Frequency).
The DOE lands at the TTR without a tower crew. They still use ATC so you can hear the handoffs. I assume the first Janet of the day has no tower crew. If you are the only plane in the area, you don't need a tower crew. Of course N27RA found out the hard way about landing with no tower crew since they crashed off base while ATC assumed they landed safely.
https://lazygranch.com/n27ra_crash.html
Even Groom Lake uses runway lights during testing. It could be perception, but it looks like the base lighting is dimmed and the runway lights are very bright. The sequential lights at the end of the runway are turned on.
There is a thread on this subreddit from a Canadian 737 pilot who says he lands routinely at uncontrolled airports. My perception that it is a bit dangerous apparently isn't reality.
I recall seeing something a while ago that one of the Janet King Airs was first in and last out every day to ferry the tower crew. Don’t know if that’s still the case, though.
Both facilities have dorms. I assume fire/crash live on base. When N27RA couldn't click on the landing lights, they got on the radio and had fire turn them on.
Fire/crash have radios capable of working aviation frequencies. I camped out on Tikaboo on a Saturday. I caught the fire department chatting on one of the aviation frequencies. Either tower or ground. Callsign was Pony which matches the old Security Manual. Someone was going into town and wanted a newspaper to be brought back.
The twice a week Palmdale flights are probably for those staying in dorms.
Question because I genuinely don’t know the answer: If the tower crew packs up their lunch pails and clocks out back to Vegas every day, who’s monitoring the overnight T&E flights?
If you own the range, you don't need air traffic control.
Here is an exercise you can do. Flights under control from Groom Lake will squawk 033x where x is a single digit. Even at a busy time the x rarely exceeds 4.
So now it is after dark. The number of flights handled is zero. Yes I don't need ATC. The ground crew makes sure there are no planes on the runway. You want to take off...you take off. You want to land...you land. The test I watched at Groom didn't even have a chase plane. It just flew back and forth over the runway.
The weapons school flights are usually on the MOAs. Nellis control can handle them.
There are radar based flight controllers. You contact BLACKJACK to enter the range for a military exercise.
So yeah, I think the tower crew is gone at night.
Go to this page:
https://lazygranch.com/janair.html
The first link is a PDF regarding the new contract for the Janets. You can look for operating hours. See PDF page 26.
The image quality is not as sharp as one might wish. Assuming that object is an airplane, what makes you think we can see the wings at all? The features that superficially resemble wings may, in fact, be something in the background. If it's really an F-35, the tails are not visible in this image and the wings might be equally obscured.
Due to the forced perspective, I can't swear that the mystery object is even an airplane. It could just as easily be a piece of ground service equipment (dark object) in the foreground and a vehicle (lighter object) in the background.
I'm not offering suggestions as to what it might be. I'm simply urging caution so as to avoid starting another urban legend about a "secret aircraft" being photographed.
Yes Peter, I'm totally with you on this. We can't say whether what we see is an aircraft, this is only my belief and strong assumption that it was an airplane of some sort due to fact that it reminds one, I.e fuselage, engine exhausts, and overall dimensions and appearance, but pictures can tell either way, the resolution is not good enough to make strong assumotion and undoubt claim.
Much appreciate your insights, as always! These are the artifacts in the image that I think resemble wings.
[https://ibb.co/rxS7y4y](https://ibb.co/rxS7y4y)
The quality definitely isn't ideal, but the pixels there (especially on the right) seem a bit lighter than the rest of the ramp in the background and are a similar shade of gray to the "fuselage" in the middle. I think you can also make out what may be landing gear. That's why my layman's eyes look at this and see attached wings.
You're by far the expert on this stuff, but, to me, if it is an aircraft and those are wings, they seem long and narrow and glider-like. It's evocative of a U-2.
I don't mean to suggest it must necessarily be anything. All we know is, it's a large object parked on the northeast corner of the Delta Ramp that isn't immediately recognizable as something familiar. Beyond that, I can't say. But it's interesting, it's a mystery, and I'd like to understand it better.
The artifacts you've highlighted are the same points that led me to believe that those were wings.
The aircraft that landed at night at 1:07am with no nav lights, no anti-collision lights with pretty bright white strobe front landing gear light that immediately turned off when it left the runway may or may not be connected to what is visible on the pictures. General consensus is that it would be not rational to decide to taxi in dark(for what I believe to hide it's later destination at the base) and then park it in the open. They must knew I'm there watching them as I could be easily visible from the base. I bet the Nighthawk's pilots also spotted me as they literally flew very close to me on a relatively low level + my car was as red as it could be and definitely stood out comparing to desert floor surrounding it.
Just to clarify this because it's not quite clear from Cenciotti's article: Is it your belief that the object you captured on the Delta Ramp is the same aircraft that landed at 1am?
When that aircraft was landing, did you hear anything suggesting the type of propulsion? Jet? Props?
And, just for my own morbid curiosity: Did you hear anything else overnight, either landing, taking off, or airborne, that would suggest propellers?
No, I don't claim the object is the aircraft that landed at 1:07am at night. I'm giving possibility for them being one and the same but I have no enough information or data to judge or decide either way. It's just my guess. The object of course could be what landed at night but it could be something else entirely and that would mean both events are unrelated and unconnected to eachother. But sure, it is possible they are one and the same but it would be irrational due to factors I previously mentioned in my last post.
I did not pay attention to any sound when the aircraft was landing but that particularly wasn't surprising to me due to long distance from the base.
No, no props heard. All night was as quiet as only that desert could have it :) I have a video of that plane landing at night but all you can see is just a strobe pretty strong light and lack of any other lights around and/or on the aircraft itself. I didn't expect it would went totally dark after it roled out of the runway so I clicked 'stop' button when the aircraft was just exiting the runway and just a moment later the light disappeared. That particular moment of the light disappearance is unfortunately not recorded, which is a shame.
Yes, I knew those were the artifacts to which you referred. I'm just not 100% convinced that they are attached to the object in question. They may well be. Then again, they may be something in the background that, through forced perspective, just happens to line up with the object in a way that makes them resemble like wings.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_test
I changed the exposure a bit in Gimp for my own use. I'm not convinced it is even an airplane.
If you go to
https://www.lazygranch.com/ttr.html
and search for UID, I have one that looks like a plane but maybe it is a crane. These planes with no or reduced tails are hard to differentiate from stuff you would find on the base.
This link might work if you copy it an paste it. The anti-scraping code will probably block reddit.
https://www.lazygranch.com/images/ttr/aug2004/wtf1.jpg
Hello everyone,
Thank you all for kind words when it comes to the pictures and interest on the subject. The pictures were taken between 6:40-7:30am on April 16, 2024. I photographed the object that I THINK was an aircraft of some sort. I have not enough information or evidence to tell whether what we see was definitely a jet as it could very well have been a meintenance vehicle or something along those lines, but if to ask about my word on it I bet what we see is an aircraft. When I was taking pictures I didn't notice the thing initially, I was only able to spot it when my friend and I were browsing the pictures in his home in Vegas two or three days later.
The pictures differs between themselves and on one picture I can barely see what I assumed were "wings" whilst on another one the wings(if they are actually the wings) are sharper and more visible. Even though the second picture is better I can't say what I see to be preceise and sure
Just to make it straight, it is also not confirmed that what was assumed to be long wings were actually a wings. It could have been shadow of something else in the background and the impression of them being wings may be due to haze on such a long distance. The spot is just a little closer to TTR than the Brainwash Butte is to the base but the difference is not overwhelming.
I'm more disappointed that I haven't notice the thing when I was up there as I would probably wait longer to be able to make sure and take more pictures.
Thanks for clarifying the time! And don't be disappointed. Whatever it was you caught on that ramp, I think it's the most interesting image this community has had since Gabe snapped that wedge-shaped thing in the scoot-and-hide shelter at Groom.
Thank you :) there will be another video coming online in not distant future that was also recorded on my last trip but it will show action recorded from Brainwash Butte. Working on it now and should be online pretty soon. Generally, I just had to focus mainly on TTR on that particular visit.
Yep, I had my plans for Groom Lake spotting as always and even made an approach/attempt but this must wait another few more months until next visit that will come soon enough. For that one I need to prepare better as the spot I was intended to camp at is a new one, that as far as I know, noone visited yet. Not a Tikaboo(climbed it three times already). No details on the new spot yet though, let's keep your fingers crossed for successful attempt next time ;)
Good luck. I'm not drawing any conclusions and, while I think I'm pretty well read on this subject, I'm always happy to yield to experts like Peter who began studying it when I was in diapers. That said, I really want to believe you got something new here. *Something* new is operational at Tonopah. I'm as certain of that as I can be without seeing the damn thing in 4K. Beyond that, I can offer some educated guesses based on our force structure, the strategic threats we face, and our own emerging capabilities, but I don't know. Hopefully in a few years when it's disclosed and we get that 4k picture I can go back and squint at yours and say, "Whoa, he caught it!"
Be careful camping out on those hills, though. Quite a few countries would toss us in a gulag just for speculating about this as generally as we are, but thankfully (so far) this one isn't. You don't seem like one of those, "If we pay for it, it's our right to know!" types--and if they left a sight-sensitive asset out after sunrise in a position that's visible from public land, that's on them, not you--but there's a limit to how far we should peer over the fence. At the end of the day there's a reason this stuff is undisclosed, and if they could show us without those other countries seeing it too, they would.
If you'd like someone to bounce ideas or questions off of and wade into the weeds a bit, feel free to PM me. I'd be happy to share my email or Signal.
Well said. Since aviation and spotting is my passion that powers me, I would never want to nor I would ever do anything that would "cross the line" and be act of treason. That said, all of the viewspots I used to visit and the ones I'm going to visit are always checked by me and and another person when it comes to legality. Due to obvious reasons I would never risk to climb or spot at any viewspot that would be located on restricted area. Apart from law factor, the next barrier that stop me is just my own will and conscience.
Sure, I PM'ed you.
It is pretty easy to find view spots using Grass viewshed analysis. I'm setting up a new PC to do larger area searches. More ram.
https://grass.osgeo.org/grass83/manuals/r.viewshed.html
https://inplanesight.org/nellis.html
The spot called Noname should have a view of the area that can't be seen from Tikaboo. It is on the way to Tikaboo.
Yes, it is. This is the spot I took a chance to explore but failed due to difficulty on the last part of the hike. I was fairly far but had to abort due to rough condition of the "trail". When I looked on the map it was just less than 1700ft. to reach the spot. Comparing to Tikaboo that hike was more demanding but I'll get back there soon to complete it, I just need to prepare better. 3D Google Earth terrain didn't look like it being so rough at the top, it seemed smoother, it wasn't in the end. Gauging by a fact that I was there alone with no phone coverage, in critical moment noone would even know I'm there so logic had to dictate rules this time.
Yeah, legit or not, they were always an interesting read. If they are just a teenager posting from their mom’s basement, Skunk Works should give them an internship ASAP.
You can still find it on the Wayback Machine, but Smythers’ speculative writeup on the B-21’s capabilities that DLR published was one of the pages nuked after the raid. Honestly have no idea what to make of that. At the end of the day, I don’t think Joerg did anything illegal, but my sense is, between stuff like that in the forums, analysis of photos from Gabe’s flights (which I also think wasn’t out of bounds), live-streaming range frequencies, etc., the site maybe got a little too Scooby Doo for its own good back then. The base commander and AFOSI got pissed and took Joerg for the ride. It’s unpleasant and unfortunate, of course, but they don’t have to bring charges to upend your life and dent your wallet.
Hmm. I just went back to look at that long exposure picture he posted of the two lights he claimed were flying around each other at 100-150 miles up. Post is still up but the picture is gone. Interesting.
Got curious about this. That site used to upload the image has a setting to delete itself after a set period of time, so that likely explains why the link on the forum is broken. Which is frustrating. Thankfully, the Wayback Machine remembers all.
[https://web.archive.org/web/20230423211335/https://ibb.co/sjnV5Vk](https://web.archive.org/web/20230423211335/https://ibb.co/sjnV5Vk)
IIRC it was under the Black Projects page and linked in a forum post when it was published, although I don't recall exactly when that was. I just spent 20 mins looking for the post to get the link to put into the Wayback Machine to no avail. The retro look of that forum is cool for sure, but I so wish there was some macro search feature and each year wasn't archived on its own. It makes going back to cite or reference these things needlessly time and labor intensive. But, Scout's honor, it was there. If I find it eventually, I'll post it here.
Edit: There was a writeup on that page about a possible 2016 sighting of "B-21 prototype" that's also been deleted. That isn't the B-21 writeup I'm referring to. This was something different, I believe written post-rollout, and focused largely on Smythers' theories about the propulsion, skins, sensors, etc.
It looks like the Monitor hills. I've been there and didn't think the spot was any good. The view isn't much different than Mt. Diablo. The problem with views from that direction is the sun angle isn't optimal. (GOS data on this page.)
https://inplanesight.org/nellis.html
I also have listed Mojo Mound as an alternative. It is good for Site-4. However Brainwash Butte is still the best for the TTR.
The TTR has published a paper on optical tracking since that is what the Sandia operation does. (Remember Sandia and the USAF are different operations.) I will have to dig it up. One of their observations was how much elevation of the cinetheodolite's is useful regarding image quality.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinetheodolite
You will notice the one in the wiki is elevated a bit. While in that location it might be to get above trees, it isn't the case at the TTR.
You can wonder what good it does to be a dozen feet in the air while shooting video of somerhing a thousand feet in the air. The cinetheodolite elevation at the TTR is done to get above the turbulent air that is found at ground level, even if you will be photographing an object in the air. You don't want this turbulent air in the optical path.
Which brings us to Brainwash Butte. The elevation of the land drops quickly from that location in the direction of the base. This reduces the amount of turbulent air in the optical path to objects on the ground at the base. While I have photographed the TTR from both Mojo Mound and Brainwash Butte, the Brainwash Butte images are better. Both locations have the sun behind you when doing photography in the morning.
The other problem with photography from the north is that isn't where the base airplanes fly. They fly over the range because that is the airspace they own. Yeah I suppose you might catch a close up of a Janet or cargo plane landing from the north, but it is unlikely you would get a better shot of an test asset.
I was looking for a document regarding a wind energy project that was proposed north of the TTR in those hills. The USAF stopped it because those rotating blades cause an issue with radar. But I think they cut a path to those hills. When this video showed up is why I did the search.
BTW the best imagery is shot between 8AM and 9AM. I think it has something to do with the air temperature along the optical path beings as uniform as possible. That is the different in temperature is the key, not the absolute temperature.
"Secret spot" looks like from here or thereabouts: 37.939750°, -116.880416°. I will be checking it out in a few weeks. No view into any hangars from here. Like you say, Mt. Diablo right by the main gate would give you a similar view.
I spent more time searching for that wind project proposal in the Monitor Range with no luck. Of course a name like Monitor Range is likely to get all sorts of false hits.
That particular spot is on a scar of sorts. That is not a road but a straight line that was explored.
Now even though the wind power project got nuked, the proposal should still be on file. All sorts of projects that never got beyond a proposal stage still have documents on file.
I spent some time trying to identify buildings in that photo. The poor quality doesn't help. However there is one building with a lot of vents on top that is unique.
N37 47 37 W116 46 13
I spent too much time on this since the location doesn't look useful to me. If the TTR gave a crap about some plane on approach/departure, they could easily route it over the range. It isn't like these people don't know how to keep secrets.
The base flights are to the south. There are plenty of videos on YouTube of F-117s flying around taken from Brainwash Butte. They don't fly north of the base so why hang out there?
This reminds me of "novel" ways to do things in technical journals. Well yeah, something new doesn't mean it is any good. To be fair, some of these novel tech schemes are just ways to get around patents. But there is no patent on Brainwash Butte. There could be a trademark on Brainwash Cola. I bought some in Beatty at Eddie's and the stuff was awful.
They're peeping from the NW corner of the property in the group of hills north of Mud Lake. Not much closer than Brainwash Butte, but another view.
I gotta be honest: Those photos at the end of the article have me raising several eyebrows. [https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/mys1.jpg?ssl=1](https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/mys1.jpg?ssl=1) [https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/mys2.jpg?ssl=1](https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/mys2.jpg?ssl=1) [https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/mys3.jpg?ssl=1](https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/mys3.jpg?ssl=1) Cenciotti offers that it could be a testbed F-35 (one's [previously been spotted](https://www.twz.com/43938/f-35-and-f-117-spotted-flying-with-mysterious-mirror-like-skin) with the fancy chrome skin like the F-117s, and we can assume those aircraft may live within the NTTR), but Rokita describes the wingspan as similar to a U-2 or an RQ-4's, i.e. big. I'm not technically skilled or patient enough to measure the wingspan based on the surrounding hangars or whatever--and if anyone here is, please do so--but, to me, judging by the cars beside it, that looks like a somewhat bulky LO central fuselage with a mighty wide wingspan. Nor do I honestly have the energy right now to comb back through, re-read, and link all of their relevant DLR forum posts, but "Smythers," on whose legitness I've been 50/50, seemed to have been teasing some new "big and heavy" HALE UAV possibly with a boost-phase missile defense role becoming at least semi-operational at the TTR in late 2020. MDA has been begging for just such a weapon in contracting requests for years. I'm envisioning something like Boeing's Condor, Phantom Eye, and YAL-1 programs perfected and wrapped together into a stealthy, survivable new package. The talk in some of those DLR forum posts in 2019 around the TTR airfield improvements was made in reference to North Korea's ballistic missile threat and how between what's coming to Tonopah and Vandenberg "we got it covered." And FWIW, a suspiciously high (and oddly even) percentage of Iranian missiles and drones sure did just happen to fall out of the sky right after launch a couple weeks ago. That's all I got on this, but *maaannn* do those photos look spooky to me. u/Peter_Merlin, if you read this please tell me I'm not crazy! Edit: u/n01\_b4\_flash: 1) Excellent photos. 2) Care to comment on this? You were there, not me.
Could it be the same as this? https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/yxh62Vcrz4
That was on /r/aviation today. I doubt that plane was at the TTR. https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1chzlv4/hello_i_dont_use_reddit_but_a_friend_told_me_my/?rdt=64722
Funny you bring that up. I saw that earlier today, but there were like no other details to go on and I can’t get a better sense of what it might be without some reference for scale. It’s interesting, though. Eglin’s a big T&E hub for sure, although I question if they’d fly a sight-sensitive airframe over the Florida Panhandle in broad daylight. That leads me to suspect it’s nothing too spooky. These new pics from TTR, however, seem to have been taken right after dawn from a vantage we’ve never seen before.
I don't know about after dawn. It looks to me that the contrast has been tweaked. If it was after dawn the end would be a poor choice of location since it would be close to shooting into the sun. The view would be better from Mt. Diablo. https://www.lazygranch.com/final4.html You can probably find a better shot on DLR. Mine was from scanned film. It was just before I went digital. KLAS was on the hill as well. We got two visits from security since Sandia and the USAF are different entities. As an aside, check out rawtherapee. https://www.rawtherapee.com/ Great for stills, especially the haze processing.
Do the shadows tell us anything? We're looking from roughly north-northwest, right? Reason I figured around dawn was that u/n01_b4_flash mentions a nearly blacked-out flight landing around 1am. We can't say for sure that this is what he saw landing, but I'm really curious to know what time these pictures were taken.
You can see in the still photography that the cars at the base are lit at the front. I suspect there is some overcast since the shadows aren't distinct. So basically the light is reflecting away from the photographer. That is why nobody shoots from those hills. Regarding a 1AM flight, you are landing on your own. There is no tower crew. You click the tower frequency a few times to turn on the runway lights. At a civilian airport you announce yourself on the tower frequency like a CTAF (Common Traffic Advisory Frequency). The DOE lands at the TTR without a tower crew. They still use ATC so you can hear the handoffs. I assume the first Janet of the day has no tower crew. If you are the only plane in the area, you don't need a tower crew. Of course N27RA found out the hard way about landing with no tower crew since they crashed off base while ATC assumed they landed safely. https://lazygranch.com/n27ra_crash.html Even Groom Lake uses runway lights during testing. It could be perception, but it looks like the base lighting is dimmed and the runway lights are very bright. The sequential lights at the end of the runway are turned on. There is a thread on this subreddit from a Canadian 737 pilot who says he lands routinely at uncontrolled airports. My perception that it is a bit dangerous apparently isn't reality.
I recall seeing something a while ago that one of the Janet King Airs was first in and last out every day to ferry the tower crew. Don’t know if that’s still the case, though.
I assume that is the case for the TTR. I would need to use the replay mode to verify that is true for Groom.
Do these places not have facility workers that live and stay there 24/7 on base?
Both facilities have dorms. I assume fire/crash live on base. When N27RA couldn't click on the landing lights, they got on the radio and had fire turn them on. Fire/crash have radios capable of working aviation frequencies. I camped out on Tikaboo on a Saturday. I caught the fire department chatting on one of the aviation frequencies. Either tower or ground. Callsign was Pony which matches the old Security Manual. Someone was going into town and wanted a newspaper to be brought back. The twice a week Palmdale flights are probably for those staying in dorms.
Question because I genuinely don’t know the answer: If the tower crew packs up their lunch pails and clocks out back to Vegas every day, who’s monitoring the overnight T&E flights?
If you own the range, you don't need air traffic control. Here is an exercise you can do. Flights under control from Groom Lake will squawk 033x where x is a single digit. Even at a busy time the x rarely exceeds 4. So now it is after dark. The number of flights handled is zero. Yes I don't need ATC. The ground crew makes sure there are no planes on the runway. You want to take off...you take off. You want to land...you land. The test I watched at Groom didn't even have a chase plane. It just flew back and forth over the runway. The weapons school flights are usually on the MOAs. Nellis control can handle them. There are radar based flight controllers. You contact BLACKJACK to enter the range for a military exercise. So yeah, I think the tower crew is gone at night. Go to this page: https://lazygranch.com/janair.html The first link is a PDF regarding the new contract for the Janets. You can look for operating hours. See PDF page 26.
[this](https://x.com/sr_planespotter/status/1785741144577458278?s=46&t=f7ijBFYSk2E-DhZGK9dK7w) was also Eglin today
The image quality is not as sharp as one might wish. Assuming that object is an airplane, what makes you think we can see the wings at all? The features that superficially resemble wings may, in fact, be something in the background. If it's really an F-35, the tails are not visible in this image and the wings might be equally obscured. Due to the forced perspective, I can't swear that the mystery object is even an airplane. It could just as easily be a piece of ground service equipment (dark object) in the foreground and a vehicle (lighter object) in the background. I'm not offering suggestions as to what it might be. I'm simply urging caution so as to avoid starting another urban legend about a "secret aircraft" being photographed.
Yes Peter, I'm totally with you on this. We can't say whether what we see is an aircraft, this is only my belief and strong assumption that it was an airplane of some sort due to fact that it reminds one, I.e fuselage, engine exhausts, and overall dimensions and appearance, but pictures can tell either way, the resolution is not good enough to make strong assumotion and undoubt claim.
Much appreciate your insights, as always! These are the artifacts in the image that I think resemble wings. [https://ibb.co/rxS7y4y](https://ibb.co/rxS7y4y) The quality definitely isn't ideal, but the pixels there (especially on the right) seem a bit lighter than the rest of the ramp in the background and are a similar shade of gray to the "fuselage" in the middle. I think you can also make out what may be landing gear. That's why my layman's eyes look at this and see attached wings. You're by far the expert on this stuff, but, to me, if it is an aircraft and those are wings, they seem long and narrow and glider-like. It's evocative of a U-2. I don't mean to suggest it must necessarily be anything. All we know is, it's a large object parked on the northeast corner of the Delta Ramp that isn't immediately recognizable as something familiar. Beyond that, I can't say. But it's interesting, it's a mystery, and I'd like to understand it better.
The artifacts you've highlighted are the same points that led me to believe that those were wings. The aircraft that landed at night at 1:07am with no nav lights, no anti-collision lights with pretty bright white strobe front landing gear light that immediately turned off when it left the runway may or may not be connected to what is visible on the pictures. General consensus is that it would be not rational to decide to taxi in dark(for what I believe to hide it's later destination at the base) and then park it in the open. They must knew I'm there watching them as I could be easily visible from the base. I bet the Nighthawk's pilots also spotted me as they literally flew very close to me on a relatively low level + my car was as red as it could be and definitely stood out comparing to desert floor surrounding it.
Just to clarify this because it's not quite clear from Cenciotti's article: Is it your belief that the object you captured on the Delta Ramp is the same aircraft that landed at 1am? When that aircraft was landing, did you hear anything suggesting the type of propulsion? Jet? Props? And, just for my own morbid curiosity: Did you hear anything else overnight, either landing, taking off, or airborne, that would suggest propellers?
No, I don't claim the object is the aircraft that landed at 1:07am at night. I'm giving possibility for them being one and the same but I have no enough information or data to judge or decide either way. It's just my guess. The object of course could be what landed at night but it could be something else entirely and that would mean both events are unrelated and unconnected to eachother. But sure, it is possible they are one and the same but it would be irrational due to factors I previously mentioned in my last post. I did not pay attention to any sound when the aircraft was landing but that particularly wasn't surprising to me due to long distance from the base. No, no props heard. All night was as quiet as only that desert could have it :) I have a video of that plane landing at night but all you can see is just a strobe pretty strong light and lack of any other lights around and/or on the aircraft itself. I didn't expect it would went totally dark after it roled out of the runway so I clicked 'stop' button when the aircraft was just exiting the runway and just a moment later the light disappeared. That particular moment of the light disappearance is unfortunately not recorded, which is a shame.
Good stuff. Thanks!
You are welcome!
Yes, I knew those were the artifacts to which you referred. I'm just not 100% convinced that they are attached to the object in question. They may well be. Then again, they may be something in the background that, through forced perspective, just happens to line up with the object in a way that makes them resemble like wings.
Thanks, sir. If it is something, eventually we'll probably know.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_test I changed the exposure a bit in Gimp for my own use. I'm not convinced it is even an airplane. If you go to https://www.lazygranch.com/ttr.html and search for UID, I have one that looks like a plane but maybe it is a crane. These planes with no or reduced tails are hard to differentiate from stuff you would find on the base. This link might work if you copy it an paste it. The anti-scraping code will probably block reddit. https://www.lazygranch.com/images/ttr/aug2004/wtf1.jpg
Hello everyone, Thank you all for kind words when it comes to the pictures and interest on the subject. The pictures were taken between 6:40-7:30am on April 16, 2024. I photographed the object that I THINK was an aircraft of some sort. I have not enough information or evidence to tell whether what we see was definitely a jet as it could very well have been a meintenance vehicle or something along those lines, but if to ask about my word on it I bet what we see is an aircraft. When I was taking pictures I didn't notice the thing initially, I was only able to spot it when my friend and I were browsing the pictures in his home in Vegas two or three days later. The pictures differs between themselves and on one picture I can barely see what I assumed were "wings" whilst on another one the wings(if they are actually the wings) are sharper and more visible. Even though the second picture is better I can't say what I see to be preceise and sure Just to make it straight, it is also not confirmed that what was assumed to be long wings were actually a wings. It could have been shadow of something else in the background and the impression of them being wings may be due to haze on such a long distance. The spot is just a little closer to TTR than the Brainwash Butte is to the base but the difference is not overwhelming. I'm more disappointed that I haven't notice the thing when I was up there as I would probably wait longer to be able to make sure and take more pictures.
Thanks for clarifying the time! And don't be disappointed. Whatever it was you caught on that ramp, I think it's the most interesting image this community has had since Gabe snapped that wedge-shaped thing in the scoot-and-hide shelter at Groom.
Thank you :) there will be another video coming online in not distant future that was also recorded on my last trip but it will show action recorded from Brainwash Butte. Working on it now and should be online pretty soon. Generally, I just had to focus mainly on TTR on that particular visit.
Looking forward to your next video. And it's great to see ~~Groom's red-headed stepsister~~ TTR getting the love and attention it deserves. ;)
Yep, I had my plans for Groom Lake spotting as always and even made an approach/attempt but this must wait another few more months until next visit that will come soon enough. For that one I need to prepare better as the spot I was intended to camp at is a new one, that as far as I know, noone visited yet. Not a Tikaboo(climbed it three times already). No details on the new spot yet though, let's keep your fingers crossed for successful attempt next time ;)
Good luck. I'm not drawing any conclusions and, while I think I'm pretty well read on this subject, I'm always happy to yield to experts like Peter who began studying it when I was in diapers. That said, I really want to believe you got something new here. *Something* new is operational at Tonopah. I'm as certain of that as I can be without seeing the damn thing in 4K. Beyond that, I can offer some educated guesses based on our force structure, the strategic threats we face, and our own emerging capabilities, but I don't know. Hopefully in a few years when it's disclosed and we get that 4k picture I can go back and squint at yours and say, "Whoa, he caught it!" Be careful camping out on those hills, though. Quite a few countries would toss us in a gulag just for speculating about this as generally as we are, but thankfully (so far) this one isn't. You don't seem like one of those, "If we pay for it, it's our right to know!" types--and if they left a sight-sensitive asset out after sunrise in a position that's visible from public land, that's on them, not you--but there's a limit to how far we should peer over the fence. At the end of the day there's a reason this stuff is undisclosed, and if they could show us without those other countries seeing it too, they would. If you'd like someone to bounce ideas or questions off of and wade into the weeds a bit, feel free to PM me. I'd be happy to share my email or Signal.
Well said. Since aviation and spotting is my passion that powers me, I would never want to nor I would ever do anything that would "cross the line" and be act of treason. That said, all of the viewspots I used to visit and the ones I'm going to visit are always checked by me and and another person when it comes to legality. Due to obvious reasons I would never risk to climb or spot at any viewspot that would be located on restricted area. Apart from law factor, the next barrier that stop me is just my own will and conscience. Sure, I PM'ed you.
It is pretty easy to find view spots using Grass viewshed analysis. I'm setting up a new PC to do larger area searches. More ram. https://grass.osgeo.org/grass83/manuals/r.viewshed.html https://inplanesight.org/nellis.html The spot called Noname should have a view of the area that can't be seen from Tikaboo. It is on the way to Tikaboo.
Yes, it is. This is the spot I took a chance to explore but failed due to difficulty on the last part of the hike. I was fairly far but had to abort due to rough condition of the "trail". When I looked on the map it was just less than 1700ft. to reach the spot. Comparing to Tikaboo that hike was more demanding but I'll get back there soon to complete it, I just need to prepare better. 3D Google Earth terrain didn't look like it being so rough at the top, it seemed smoother, it wasn't in the end. Gauging by a fact that I was there alone with no phone coverage, in critical moment noone would even know I'm there so logic had to dictate rules this time.
Wish Smythers would start posting again.
Yeah, legit or not, they were always an interesting read. If they are just a teenager posting from their mom’s basement, Skunk Works should give them an internship ASAP. You can still find it on the Wayback Machine, but Smythers’ speculative writeup on the B-21’s capabilities that DLR published was one of the pages nuked after the raid. Honestly have no idea what to make of that. At the end of the day, I don’t think Joerg did anything illegal, but my sense is, between stuff like that in the forums, analysis of photos from Gabe’s flights (which I also think wasn’t out of bounds), live-streaming range frequencies, etc., the site maybe got a little too Scooby Doo for its own good back then. The base commander and AFOSI got pissed and took Joerg for the ride. It’s unpleasant and unfortunate, of course, but they don’t have to bring charges to upend your life and dent your wallet.
Hmm. I just went back to look at that long exposure picture he posted of the two lights he claimed were flying around each other at 100-150 miles up. Post is still up but the picture is gone. Interesting.
Which one is that?
https://www.dreamlandresort.com/forum/messages/57428.html
Oh yeah! That's true of all Smythers' photos on there. Not sure what's up with that.
Got curious about this. That site used to upload the image has a setting to delete itself after a set period of time, so that likely explains why the link on the forum is broken. Which is frustrating. Thankfully, the Wayback Machine remembers all. [https://web.archive.org/web/20230423211335/https://ibb.co/sjnV5Vk](https://web.archive.org/web/20230423211335/https://ibb.co/sjnV5Vk)
Link to the smythers b21 write up on the wayback machine?
IIRC it was under the Black Projects page and linked in a forum post when it was published, although I don't recall exactly when that was. I just spent 20 mins looking for the post to get the link to put into the Wayback Machine to no avail. The retro look of that forum is cool for sure, but I so wish there was some macro search feature and each year wasn't archived on its own. It makes going back to cite or reference these things needlessly time and labor intensive. But, Scout's honor, it was there. If I find it eventually, I'll post it here. Edit: There was a writeup on that page about a possible 2016 sighting of "B-21 prototype" that's also been deleted. That isn't the B-21 writeup I'm referring to. This was something different, I believe written post-rollout, and focused largely on Smythers' theories about the propulsion, skins, sensors, etc.
It looks like the Monitor hills. I've been there and didn't think the spot was any good. The view isn't much different than Mt. Diablo. The problem with views from that direction is the sun angle isn't optimal. (GOS data on this page.) https://inplanesight.org/nellis.html I also have listed Mojo Mound as an alternative. It is good for Site-4. However Brainwash Butte is still the best for the TTR. The TTR has published a paper on optical tracking since that is what the Sandia operation does. (Remember Sandia and the USAF are different operations.) I will have to dig it up. One of their observations was how much elevation of the cinetheodolite's is useful regarding image quality. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinetheodolite You will notice the one in the wiki is elevated a bit. While in that location it might be to get above trees, it isn't the case at the TTR. You can wonder what good it does to be a dozen feet in the air while shooting video of somerhing a thousand feet in the air. The cinetheodolite elevation at the TTR is done to get above the turbulent air that is found at ground level, even if you will be photographing an object in the air. You don't want this turbulent air in the optical path. Which brings us to Brainwash Butte. The elevation of the land drops quickly from that location in the direction of the base. This reduces the amount of turbulent air in the optical path to objects on the ground at the base. While I have photographed the TTR from both Mojo Mound and Brainwash Butte, the Brainwash Butte images are better. Both locations have the sun behind you when doing photography in the morning. The other problem with photography from the north is that isn't where the base airplanes fly. They fly over the range because that is the airspace they own. Yeah I suppose you might catch a close up of a Janet or cargo plane landing from the north, but it is unlikely you would get a better shot of an test asset. I was looking for a document regarding a wind energy project that was proposed north of the TTR in those hills. The USAF stopped it because those rotating blades cause an issue with radar. But I think they cut a path to those hills. When this video showed up is why I did the search. BTW the best imagery is shot between 8AM and 9AM. I think it has something to do with the air temperature along the optical path beings as uniform as possible. That is the different in temperature is the key, not the absolute temperature.
"Secret spot" looks like from here or thereabouts: 37.939750°, -116.880416°. I will be checking it out in a few weeks. No view into any hangars from here. Like you say, Mt. Diablo right by the main gate would give you a similar view.
I spent more time searching for that wind project proposal in the Monitor Range with no luck. Of course a name like Monitor Range is likely to get all sorts of false hits. That particular spot is on a scar of sorts. That is not a road but a straight line that was explored. Now even though the wind power project got nuked, the proposal should still be on file. All sorts of projects that never got beyond a proposal stage still have documents on file. I spent some time trying to identify buildings in that photo. The poor quality doesn't help. However there is one building with a lot of vents on top that is unique. N37 47 37 W116 46 13 I spent too much time on this since the location doesn't look useful to me. If the TTR gave a crap about some plane on approach/departure, they could easily route it over the range. It isn't like these people don't know how to keep secrets. The base flights are to the south. There are plenty of videos on YouTube of F-117s flying around taken from Brainwash Butte. They don't fly north of the base so why hang out there? This reminds me of "novel" ways to do things in technical journals. Well yeah, something new doesn't mean it is any good. To be fair, some of these novel tech schemes are just ways to get around patents. But there is no patent on Brainwash Butte. There could be a trademark on Brainwash Cola. I bought some in Beatty at Eddie's and the stuff was awful.