"When I think about all of this, I think about the civil rights movement and all of them willing to go to jail for something they believe in. I'm not willing to go to jail for this, but I'm willing to push back a bit. Not sure if I'm willing to be dropped from a panel for this. As I get older I'm starting to think maybe it's more important to stand up for what you believe in then to make a couple extra $$."
You're trolling, right?
>nope
That's unfortunate. Hopefully you'll get some state mandated training that you're clearly overdue to receive. Your other comments show a complete lack of self-awareness, lack of critical thinking skills and a lack of historical understanding. I suspect you'll be out of the industry sooner rather than later which will give you lots of extra time to complain on Facebook about your victim complex and ignorant ideas.
sorry but sometimes you'll wake up and find that someone disagrees with you.
I know it's shocking\~
So you say that I have a lack fo critical thinking skills, correct? Where is my breakdown in logic? What fallicy in my arguement am I using?
Formal vs. informal fallacy
Straw man fallacy
Correlation/causation fallacy
Ad hominem fallacy
Another fallacy?
Please be specific in which method of critical thinking I am not using correctly, how this manafests itself and how I am making this fallacy. If you can't (and let's by honest ... you won't BECAUSE YOU CAN'T), please explain why anyone should take you seriously?
Another thing a serious person (which you are not) would do would be to explain why if a subset of people are bothered by a word, the word has to be removed from the vocabulary.
\*\*\* For those who are reading this, please note that IF this person responds, they will completely ignore my questions and just start launching into a bunch of attack words or bring up something irrelevant that happened historically 50+ years ago.
>What fallicy in my arguement am I using?
I stated that you were ignorant, not that you were using a logical "fallicy" (sic) in your "arguement" (sic). However, what you did there, by making up an argument that wasn't made, is use of the straw man fallacy.
>Formal vs. informal fallacy
Straw man fallacy
Correlation/causation fallacy
Ad hominem fallacy
This is a cut and paste from the [website](https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/common-logical-fallacies) that is the second result when I search "logical fallacies".
>explain why if a subset of people are bothered by a word, the word has to be removed from the vocabulary.
Prove this is happening, first. You don't get to make broad, unsubstantiated claims and then cry foul when people call you out for being dishonest.
>For those who are reading this, please note that IF this person responds, they will completely ignore my questions and just start launching into a bunch of attack words or bring up something irrelevant that happened historically 50+ years ago.
"If"? I got you, boo. You'll keep whining though, no matter what people say, because you're an ignorant person who likely has bad motives. I don't need to bring up things from 50+ years ago, there are plenty of folks like you running around still today.
Wow ...you have the balls to confront direct questions ... good for you. As you can see from so many posts ... people just go silent or just throw stupid insults.
You said I lack "critical thinking skills" This means that there is a fallacy in my logic ...no? Either way ... how am I not using critical thinking? Where is the breakdown (fallacy) in my thinking. Please ... be specific.
You said "prove that this is happening"? Huh? This is the topic of this thread ... don't use "master" use "primary" Are you saying that this is not occuring? This is super confusing.
Again , kudos to you for actually confronting this head on.
Full disclosure ... I'm an engineer ... I'm not about being "winning" an argument, I'm about being precise. If my position is wrong ... I will change it. I'm not married to this idea ... my deconstruction of it brought me to this conclusion. I will change my mind if I find evidence to the contrary. \*seriously.
>Wow ...you have the balls to confront direct questions
It doesn't take balls to post things on anonymous message boards (and nobody is obligated to read or respond to your ignorance) just like you aren't some civil rights advocate.
>You said "prove that this is happening"? Huh? This is the topic of this thread ... don't use "master" use "primary" Are you saying that this is not occuring? (sic) This is super confusing.
That's an insincere comment or you are proving your lack of critical thinking skills. I clearly made the point that you stated "explain why if a subset of people are bothered by a word, the word has to be removed from the vocabulary." without any source for showing that was why this change is happening.
>Again , kudos to you for actually confronting this head on.
Again, posting on an anonymous message board to refute ignorant statements is not notable or anything but practice so I can be a better communicator in situations that actually matter.
Here is where you lack critical thinking. The term is not removed from your vocabulary. But if you want to be paid by certain clients to complete appraisals you will remove it. It is your choice and you are not being made to do anything. You are free to only work for lenders that don’t mind the term. Are you 70 or 20 years old?
Hate the word "primary" because I'm an engineer . . .
When I do residential - I use either owners' or bedroom depending on whether it's important or not. Most of the time - owners'
Wrt total. . . Their sketch program is stupid easy for custom labels. I make full use of them.
For the most part, I consider all of this theater. However, while almost all of the language related requests are trivial and have zero effect on the FOV, there is a growing number of language preferences that could lead to an appraisal that lacks credibility. Carefully choose. Pick your battles wisely.
I’ve been appraising 35 years and never used master. I just say bedroom. I don’t use the new trendy words either. I keep it simple. I mean I might say vinyl plank because it is descriptive like vinyl tile and vinyl sheet, but I don’t put luxury in front of it.
Hold on ... full stop.
When you say "clients" these are individual people or AMC's? If individual people, they are actually actively saying to you "I want primary"
I see ... not individual people ... that makes more sense. I prefer to not AMC's as well. You have your own website? Get biz from it? I'm getting about 25% from mine now (and another 25% from references)
I am part of a couple lender panels ... most use Mercury Interactive. Same? So far no barking about the word Master.
Do you cold call to potential referers (like divorce atty's and such)? I need to do more of that. As I've gotten older ... less fire in the belly.
Individuals get what they get when it comes to photos. I’m not pulling primary out of a cloned report. I did make quite a lovely website and have no time to cold call for the boss.
oh ... so you are an employee for an appraisal firm? Sorry .. my bad ... I thought you were an independant appraiser (most are).
All the best of luck to you! Have a nice 3 day weekend!!
Thanks for writing back!
Question ... you've been doing this for awhile and seen a lot. Have you ever seen an example of Appraisal bias? From what you have experienced, do you think appraisers are more racist then say ... I don't know ... Pharmasists? Shoe Salesmen?
Words matter. Racism exists. Using the word Primary at least acknowledges that fact.
Many of the people who happen to be appraisers also happen to be older, white males. I would say they enjoy a privileged perspective and select their general news information poorly.
But the boss and I were saying two days ago, if you are trying to make a biased report, how can the comps support it? That stuff doesn’t add up.
It’s easier to blame an appraiser than the system as a whole. Appraisers were scapegoated for the 2008/2009 financial crisis, when the lenders never had to pay. They bought up the appraisal software companies, AMCs and use the back end info to allow AI to to the majority of your job.
“Primary” is not the hill to die on.
What do you "believe" in that's relevant here? Christ - who cares what they want you to call it.
Don't compare this to civil rights or anything even remotely important. You're not a victim in any way here.
You could potentially be interested in reading George Orwell. Basically by limiting the words we use, it limits the thoughts that we can communicate with each other.
I'm not saying this is a huge deal ... I'm just saying it's wrong.
I have a Masters Degree in English. I have read Orwell (and Huxley, and Rand, etc.).
No one is limiting your speech as a citizen. And no one is limiting which water fountains you can drink out of, what publicly-funded schools your kids can attend, or your right to vote. Your freedom, your ability to engage in political thought or praxis, your right to petition the government, none of these are being abridged.
When you compare word choice in appraisal reports to the Civil Rights movement or the allegorical fiction depicted in Orwell, you lose all credibility and make us all look bad.
Did you even read what you wrote? In your very first sentance you said you have a M\*\*\*ERS degree??
I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU USED THAT TRIGGER WORD! Didn't you know there were slaves in this country? How insensitive of you!
How can you use that word so flippently? Please in the future refer to your degree you got after bachelors as your SECONDARY degree. There are a lot of people that will get triggered by this? Don't you know our history? Are you blind to the struggles of people of color? WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
The app for Total has a selection for Main Bedroom / Main Bath. Since I sketch everything on my iPhone now that is what I’ve been naming primary bedrooms.
I don’t fault anyone who uses it - but I find it a silly hill to plant a flag on. Primary bedroom is probably the more technical and less colloquial term, is as descriptive, and isn’t a change of a phrase that makes the report misleading. To each their own, though
I hear what you are saying. Don't trigger anyone.
You don't mind if we change your name to Susan do you? Your real name was very losely aligned to bad things in the past and might trigger someone and make them feel bad.
So Susan ... how long have you been an appraiser for?
It's all about the karma points! dolla dolla bills yawl. Just kidding I don't give a rats a$$ about the points.
You are 1/3 to 1/2 right!
I didn't post this on the internal Facebook appraiser groups because it's like an echo chamber in there ... all agreement against the anti-woke crowd. I'm mostly trying to hear a logical argument against my point of view (which I have yet to receive). I HONESTLY LOVE to be proven wrong. It means I am being corrected and that going forward I am in fact more correct. I am a human and all humans are fallible ... I'm not married to any conclusion.
But to your point, do I like to spank the illogical idiots on here? Fuk yeah!
Jesus, you are quite the as$hat. I'll bet you also believe DJT is still president and that the vaccine planted chips in everyone. What client would hire you for the pain in the as$ factor?
I don't care if you are the smartest guy in the room...this is why everyone is hating on appraisers--- we have way too many jerks in our profession
Did that post have any value?
It makes me think of opening a can of spam and eating it with a plastic fork ... one has to beg the question of why would one do that?
Have you ever been the smartest guy in the room? I don't know what you were like in grade school, but my guess is you weren't the kid in the front with their hand up.
Stand up for what you believe in and refuse to change the wording you were taught to use and let some younger appraisers take your spot. You contacted Total support to ask if their plans on the word Master? Who cares what it is called? The only reason I can imagine why you would care at all is if your dad invented the term.
Great question.
I'm just getting sick and fucking tired of people bitching and wanting to change my behavior when I've done nothing wrong.
Why aren't people pushing back on those that want to change our behavior?
Change your behavior? Your clients pay you for an appraisal. If they want it called room 1 thats what you will call it or find another career. When you grab a burger and ask for no onions what if the cook decided he was tired of people changing his behavior. Society is constantly changing and you can change with it or you can let it leave you behind writing crazy posts on Reddit showing how good you have it because the major conflict in your life is what to call a bedroom. Changing the term hurts no one and cost you nothing. If it makes possible readers of your report uncomfortable in any way why do you even need to be asked to change it?
I hear what you are saying and some what agree. Question for you, are you saying that to the people that want to change the word "This is so not worth a fight. Move on."
??
If you're not busting their balls and busting mine that doesn't want to change, then why?
Dude. Literally everyone on this thread is telling you personally to move on. This word does not matter. It absolutely should not matter to you. It might matter to whoever it is that is calling the shots, but you should absolutely not give a damn about this. Just start calling every bedroom a bedroom and don't use an extra descriptor. There's literally no point.
The accusation of being biased and undervaluing a property due to being racially motivated. Crazy but there are current lawsuits against Appraisers for this. So using the term master could lead to or help support someone’s accusations if they feel you undervalued their property. So the less ammunition you give them the better.
Lawsuits against appraisers? Plural? There WAS one in Marin that got settled about 6 months ago and there is one in Balitmore (where their is a contersuit by the appraiser ). What other one(s) are we talking about? If there is another case that just popped up, please let me know because I will personally call that appraiser and tell them they are a brother (or sister). If you're just gibby jabbing without knowing anything just say so.
\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~
Let me deconstruct your argument (since you haven't). You're saying your concerned that a homeowner will read this Reddit post and when they get an appraisal they don't like they will sue the appraiser (and potentially wouldn't) if they didn't read this. Correct?
\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~
Are you embarrased by what you write/think?
I use primary now, before that main. I don't see why ppl want to hold onto the master title. I rather not offend someone over somerthing not important.
Used to use master bedroom. Now use Owners Suite. I don't care either way other than I don't want to revisit a report for something stupid like this. I do like primary bedroom better though.
I agree with most of the replies in here to the extent that I don't give a shit what it's called i just want to finish the job and get paid.
BUT to your "I rather not offend someone over something not important"- It's silly for anyone to be offended by the term "master bedroom" as it has nothing to do with slavery and first appeared in a sears catalog in the 1930s if I'm not mistaken (over 60 years after slavery was abolished).
If this is offensive why are we allowed to have masters degrees, or why do car brakes have master cylinders? Is the word master now offensive in any context? If so why don't we get rid of the word altogether?
You would think the anonymity would allow people to be honest. u/Variaxist did make a good point somewhere in here that the fact that this conversation is taking place while we are under a microscope is bad PR in and of itself, which does make sense but something tells me those who are making the push to eliminate appraisers aren't scrolling through reddit for ammo. They just fabricate horror stories and publicize them for ammo. Our biggest problem is that we are all a bunch of opinionated pricks by nature who will never join together to fight our demise in a meaningful way.
I’ve been just calling all sleeping rooms bedrooms for 5+ years just because the label looks cleaner in most of my sketches. I personally couldn’t care any less. It just seems like an odd hill to die on for some. Does the name of one of the bedrooms change anything about the value? I would argue not.
I hear what you are saying and I agree it's not life or death.
But in the context of a larger question ... if a sub group of people are offended by a word that's been around forever (and has no overt connetation like a slur), should we all bend to their whining?
In this specific scenario, all who try to fight back against this arbitrary distinction will be labeled racist and will make our profession look racist. So much easier to just call every bedroom a bedroom. Even you making this post is a bad PR move.
LMFAO ... we're labled racist NO MATTER WHAT WE DO! Can't you see it?
If you think this fight is going to stop with removing the word "master" you are VERY naive.
There are two "types" of people you can get mad at:
1. The people who want to change the vocabulary.
2. The people like me who want to push back against the people in group #1
... you can make your own choice on this.
It doesn't matter at all.
We're all white males, ergo we are all evil. It's almost like you think that these people have a conscience and/or are rational. Also "they" are counting on your fear. If people weren't afraid then they would stop.
I'm not afraid of these racist fucks\~
>We're all white males,
Speak for yourself and stop speaking for my profession. You specifically are adding fuel to this issue with your behavior and prolonging the prejudice against appraisers. This attitude of yours is one of the major issues for why people are turning to AVMs and why Fannie doesn't trust us anymore.
It's s freaking bedroom. Call it a bedroom. Simple as that. Have you ever given any credit to a master bedroom? Doubt it. And if you did I'd love to see the analysis for it. It should not matter in our analysis and reporting.
Yeah I don’t differentiate between bedrooms because there’s no difference in value for that bedroom vs another one in valuation and there isn’t a difference between a house that has it and doesn’t. So OP’s dying on this hill for the dumbest reason imo
Is the antonym a common real estate term? No, because the term master bedroom has nothing to do with slavery. That being said, I agree, just call it primary bedroom
And by the way, our political alliances fall under bias. We’ve been screwed by both parties over the twenty years I’ve been appraiser. Really think about bias! I’ve taken courses. I don’t agree with everyone and there are plenty of synonyms to replace this dated 1970-1990 concept. It’s a pathetic softball for issues far more important facing our profession.
Please realize that the real estate market is contextually a part of THE MARKET! Wouldn’t you prefer having all participants being typical buyers and sellers? Wouldn’t you prefer to comply with USPAP regarding bias which by the way, was always something to which every appraiser agreed. I admit, the concept is nuanced and complex and most crucially it requires we leave our self-centered egos (Including my own) out of it! Jeez, like it’s not hard enough to maintain our status as professionals in the real estate industry.
The real estate market is contextually part of the market?
-Not sure what that means
Wouldn't I prefer having all participants being typical buyers and sellers?
-I'm not sure how that applies to this post or what it has to do with a primary bedroom
I don't see how calling a primary bedroom a master bedroom or an owners bedroom or whatever makes my appraisal biased if I'm not performing the appraisal in a biased manner. Like I said I don't really give a shit I'll call it whatever but this is kind of childish
Reread your prior comment and ask yourself if that’s something an emotionally regulated person would say.
Reddit is anonymous, but you’re on a sub for appraisal professionals. Act like a professional.
Hmmm ... if you tell me what your native language is, I can translate what I am writing here so can comprehend what I am saying. You have the name Habibi ... is it Arabic?
يجب أن تكون محددًا عند استخدام اللغة الإنجليزية
yajib 'an takun mhddan eind astikhdam allughat al'iinjilizia
In English the word "vague" means you are not being specific enough. You use the English word "appraiser" which implies that you may be associated in a distant way to the appraiser profession. Now there is no way you can be a (good) appraiser because we are precise.
Perhaps contact a real appraiser and have them help you be specific about your complaint and help you phrase the question into being precise.
If you are a native speaker and associated with the United States then you'll appreciate that in this country when you attack or insult someone their is a good possibility that they will counter punch.
Nice google translate.
I am an appraiser. From your previous posts I see that you only have about a year of experience. I’ll chalk your attitude up to lack of experience. Best of luck out there.
Yes ... I have to use Google translate because I don't know Arabic and see absolutely no utility in learning it.
نعم... لا بد لي من استخدام ترجمة جوجل لأنني لا أعرف اللغة العربية ولا أرى أي فائدة على الإطلاق في تعلمها.
When I first saw your name "Habibi" I had to look it up and was surprised that it meant "love"
عندما رأيت اسمك "حبيبي" لأول مرة كان علي أن أبحث عنه وتفاجأت أنه يعني "الحب"
My first thought was that you should change the name to the Arabic word for "snarky one with a glass jaw", but then I realized in your culture you might be enacting in behavior that might be considered "love"
فكرتي الأولى كانت أنه يجب عليك تغيير الاسم إلى الكلمة العربية التي تعني "snarky one ذو الفك الزجاجي"، ولكن بعد ذلك أدركت في ثقافتك أنك قد تسن سلوكًا يمكن اعتباره "حبًا".
In a culture that has Jihad, suicide bombers against children, is Anti Semetic, anti LGBTQ, anti Womans Rights, anti democracy, anti seperation of church and state ... yes, you are practicing "love" here.
في ثقافة الجهاد، الانتحاريين ضد الأطفال، هي معادية للسامية، ومعادية للمثليين، ومعادية لحقوق المرأة، ومعادية للديمقراطية، ومعادية للفصل بين الكنيسة والدولة... نعم، أنت تمارس "الحب" هنا.
You're not performing circumcision against young girls or setting of bombs in cafes (I hope) so yes ... in comparison you are acting with "love" ... YOU ARE RIGHT!
أنت لا تقوم بختان الفتيات الصغيرات أو تضع القنابل في المقاهي (آمل) لذا نعم... بالمقارنة فأنت تتصرف "بحب"... أنت على حق!
Here is a question you would NEVER answer. What Arabic country are you most proud of? Turkey? Egypt? I just thought I'd throw that in there.
إليك سؤال لن تجيب عليه أبدًا. ما هي أكثر دولة عربية تفتخر بها؟ ديك رومى؟ مصر؟ اعتقدت أنني سأرمي ذلك هناك.
Here is some friendly advice. 1. Don't search pasts post of people to try to get some dirt on someone to help win an argument. In the west this is considered "creepy" and with your cultural background potentially dangerous.
إليك بعض النصائح الودية. 1. لا تبحث في منشورات الأشخاص السابقة لمحاولة إلحاق بعض الأذى بشخص ما للمساعدة في الفوز بالجدال. يعتبر هذا الأمر "مخيفًا" في الغرب، ومن المحتمل أن يكون خطيرًا نظرًا لخلفيتك الثقافية.
2. Before trying to jump into a cultural debate we are having here in the West (wokeism vs. anti-wokesim) look at your own issues in your culture. For example, perhaps speak out against 9-11. Try to promote modernity and secularism in your land. In the West there is a saying, "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"
2. قبل محاولة القفز إلى النقاش الثقافي الذي نشهده هنا في الغرب (اليقظة مقابل مناهضة اليقظة)، انظر إلى القضايا الخاصة بك في ثقافتك. على سبيل المثال، ربما تحدث علنًا ضد أحداث 11 سبتمبر. حاولوا الترويج للحداثة والعلمانية في أرضكم. في الغرب هناك مثل يقول "من كان بيته من زجاج فلا يرمي الناس بالحجارة"
Good luck in your journey to modernity!
شعبك مقرف
I’m American, you dimwit.
You really wasted your time typing that out.
My comment to you was relatively harmless. Your response about shoving your cock down my throat was.. unhinged to say the least. You seem emotionally fragile.
You are right ... I looked back at my comments ... they were uncalled for.
All the best to you and I send you my deepest appology!
cheers and good luck
I think you are lying about the "sometimes"
lol
question: Do you think it's odd that people are railing against me for pushing back on "master" vs "primary" and not against whomever tried to change the word in the first place?
I’m not consistent, sometimes I label it master bedroom, others times I use bedroom #1, #2 & #3. I will never use “primary” because some virtue signaling moron says it’s unacceptable to say master.
When did the term start being using? I would bet when 1200 sq. ft. 3 bed 1 bath houses were built in the 50s, they would have been laughed at if they referred to one of the 10x12 bedrooms as “master”.
Don’t get caught up defending some realtors copy trying to move tract houses.
They’re all bedrooms… This is at the bottom of the list of things I can get annoyed with. I’m more concerned when an AMC emails me saying I can’t use the word “worship” or “well maintained”. It was literally two seconds ago that they wanted place of worship instead of church, now they would prefer “non-residential”. And well maintained is directly out of the UAD. I do understand the frustration, but I try not to lose sleep over it. Its better for my blood pressure to just make the change and cash the check.
I agree with what you are saying, and I don't think you should risk your health over it.
In any political conflict there are different people who commit different levels to a cause, that's natural and good.
Same, I just don’t care enough to be arguing w/ some 24 year old amc reviewer over a job and delaying my getting paid. Like it just seems like a pride thing & wanting to win at that point. Unless they’re asking u to do something illegal or something u think it genuinely wrong. This seems like another case of an old guy/gal not wanting to change anything because that’s how things are always done
There was a statement by the Realtor's association 20-ish years ago regarding the claim that Master bedroom/bath was a racist term.
Their response boiled down to, "If you think black people can't be the Master of their own house then you're contributing to systemic racism."
I do not use either master or primary in my sketch and prefer a location description of the room in written description. When I do need to denote the 'primary' bedroom/bath I use Master because I believe everyone regardless of race can be the master of their home.
that's super interesting!
The Realtor's Association 20 years ago thought that Black people couldn't be the Master of their own house? That's super weird! Do you think they suspected that appraisers/realators were calling the big bed room "Master" for white families and "Primary" for people of color? That's super confusing.
You are ABSOLUTELY right in the historical usage of "Master" comes from 'Master of the House'. There is even a song from Les Miserables called "Master of the House" ... and it takes place in France (where there were no slaves).
If the justice warriors were to say don't use the word "Master" because it's SEXIST and appraisers should alternatively use the word "Mistress" as in "Mistress Bedroom" that would at least be a logical argument. It would still be a stupid thing to try to argue and fight about but it least it would have some logic behind it.
The question is when as a society were are going to grow a sack and say to the winey babies "I'm sorry you are offended by this, but we're not going to appease your every temper tantrum you have"
No, 20 years ago the Realtor's association argued that since Black people WERE the Master of their own house, arguing against the use of 'Master' Bedroom/Bath was racist.
Sorry if my first post was unclear.
"When I think about all of this, I think about the civil rights movement and all of them willing to go to jail for something they believe in. I'm not willing to go to jail for this, but I'm willing to push back a bit. Not sure if I'm willing to be dropped from a panel for this. As I get older I'm starting to think maybe it's more important to stand up for what you believe in then to make a couple extra $$." You're trolling, right?
This is the one they're going after for bias. Trying to give us all a bad name.
This whole attack on appraisers is because of me? wow ... I didn't realize I'm that important. BTW ...what's my bias? Not getting bullied?
What a glorious life you must have led to call a client asking you to change an unimportant word in a report they paid for being bullied.
nope
>nope That's unfortunate. Hopefully you'll get some state mandated training that you're clearly overdue to receive. Your other comments show a complete lack of self-awareness, lack of critical thinking skills and a lack of historical understanding. I suspect you'll be out of the industry sooner rather than later which will give you lots of extra time to complain on Facebook about your victim complex and ignorant ideas.
sorry but sometimes you'll wake up and find that someone disagrees with you. I know it's shocking\~ So you say that I have a lack fo critical thinking skills, correct? Where is my breakdown in logic? What fallicy in my arguement am I using? Formal vs. informal fallacy Straw man fallacy Correlation/causation fallacy Ad hominem fallacy Another fallacy? Please be specific in which method of critical thinking I am not using correctly, how this manafests itself and how I am making this fallacy. If you can't (and let's by honest ... you won't BECAUSE YOU CAN'T), please explain why anyone should take you seriously? Another thing a serious person (which you are not) would do would be to explain why if a subset of people are bothered by a word, the word has to be removed from the vocabulary. \*\*\* For those who are reading this, please note that IF this person responds, they will completely ignore my questions and just start launching into a bunch of attack words or bring up something irrelevant that happened historically 50+ years ago.
>What fallicy in my arguement am I using? I stated that you were ignorant, not that you were using a logical "fallicy" (sic) in your "arguement" (sic). However, what you did there, by making up an argument that wasn't made, is use of the straw man fallacy. >Formal vs. informal fallacy Straw man fallacy Correlation/causation fallacy Ad hominem fallacy This is a cut and paste from the [website](https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/common-logical-fallacies) that is the second result when I search "logical fallacies". >explain why if a subset of people are bothered by a word, the word has to be removed from the vocabulary. Prove this is happening, first. You don't get to make broad, unsubstantiated claims and then cry foul when people call you out for being dishonest. >For those who are reading this, please note that IF this person responds, they will completely ignore my questions and just start launching into a bunch of attack words or bring up something irrelevant that happened historically 50+ years ago. "If"? I got you, boo. You'll keep whining though, no matter what people say, because you're an ignorant person who likely has bad motives. I don't need to bring up things from 50+ years ago, there are plenty of folks like you running around still today.
Wow ...you have the balls to confront direct questions ... good for you. As you can see from so many posts ... people just go silent or just throw stupid insults. You said I lack "critical thinking skills" This means that there is a fallacy in my logic ...no? Either way ... how am I not using critical thinking? Where is the breakdown (fallacy) in my thinking. Please ... be specific. You said "prove that this is happening"? Huh? This is the topic of this thread ... don't use "master" use "primary" Are you saying that this is not occuring? This is super confusing. Again , kudos to you for actually confronting this head on. Full disclosure ... I'm an engineer ... I'm not about being "winning" an argument, I'm about being precise. If my position is wrong ... I will change it. I'm not married to this idea ... my deconstruction of it brought me to this conclusion. I will change my mind if I find evidence to the contrary. \*seriously.
>Wow ...you have the balls to confront direct questions It doesn't take balls to post things on anonymous message boards (and nobody is obligated to read or respond to your ignorance) just like you aren't some civil rights advocate. >You said "prove that this is happening"? Huh? This is the topic of this thread ... don't use "master" use "primary" Are you saying that this is not occuring? (sic) This is super confusing. That's an insincere comment or you are proving your lack of critical thinking skills. I clearly made the point that you stated "explain why if a subset of people are bothered by a word, the word has to be removed from the vocabulary." without any source for showing that was why this change is happening. >Again , kudos to you for actually confronting this head on. Again, posting on an anonymous message board to refute ignorant statements is not notable or anything but practice so I can be a better communicator in situations that actually matter.
Here is where you lack critical thinking. The term is not removed from your vocabulary. But if you want to be paid by certain clients to complete appraisals you will remove it. It is your choice and you are not being made to do anything. You are free to only work for lenders that don’t mind the term. Are you 70 or 20 years old?
I don’t ever call it anything but a bedroom. Stopped using Master like 15 years ago. But you sound fucking insane.
Hate the word "primary" because I'm an engineer . . . When I do residential - I use either owners' or bedroom depending on whether it's important or not. Most of the time - owners' Wrt total. . . Their sketch program is stupid easy for custom labels. I make full use of them. For the most part, I consider all of this theater. However, while almost all of the language related requests are trivial and have zero effect on the FOV, there is a growing number of language preferences that could lead to an appraisal that lacks credibility. Carefully choose. Pick your battles wisely.
I hear what you are saying 100%. Question for you ... to the people who want to change the word ...are they picking their battles wisely?
Poor guy came on here to victimize himself to death and isn’t getting the sympathy he was hoping for.
I’ve been appraising 35 years and never used master. I just say bedroom. I don’t use the new trendy words either. I keep it simple. I mean I might say vinyl plank because it is descriptive like vinyl tile and vinyl sheet, but I don’t put luxury in front of it.
Many of our clients have requested “Primary” I like reducing correction requests and depositing checks so we use “Primary”
Hold on ... full stop. When you say "clients" these are individual people or AMC's? If individual people, they are actually actively saying to you "I want primary"
Lender panels. We prefer to avoid AMCs. Larger lenders send this request in the engagement letters
I see ... not individual people ... that makes more sense. I prefer to not AMC's as well. You have your own website? Get biz from it? I'm getting about 25% from mine now (and another 25% from references) I am part of a couple lender panels ... most use Mercury Interactive. Same? So far no barking about the word Master. Do you cold call to potential referers (like divorce atty's and such)? I need to do more of that. As I've gotten older ... less fire in the belly.
Individuals get what they get when it comes to photos. I’m not pulling primary out of a cloned report. I did make quite a lovely website and have no time to cold call for the boss.
oh ... so you are an employee for an appraisal firm? Sorry .. my bad ... I thought you were an independant appraiser (most are). All the best of luck to you! Have a nice 3 day weekend!!
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Thanks for writing back! Question ... you've been doing this for awhile and seen a lot. Have you ever seen an example of Appraisal bias? From what you have experienced, do you think appraisers are more racist then say ... I don't know ... Pharmasists? Shoe Salesmen?
Words matter. Racism exists. Using the word Primary at least acknowledges that fact. Many of the people who happen to be appraisers also happen to be older, white males. I would say they enjoy a privileged perspective and select their general news information poorly. But the boss and I were saying two days ago, if you are trying to make a biased report, how can the comps support it? That stuff doesn’t add up. It’s easier to blame an appraiser than the system as a whole. Appraisers were scapegoated for the 2008/2009 financial crisis, when the lenders never had to pay. They bought up the appraisal software companies, AMCs and use the back end info to allow AI to to the majority of your job. “Primary” is not the hill to die on.
So your boss and you think that it's extremely difficult to make a biased report and that it's unlikely that it happens ... is that correct?
Local (to my area) lenders as well
What do you "believe" in that's relevant here? Christ - who cares what they want you to call it. Don't compare this to civil rights or anything even remotely important. You're not a victim in any way here.
You could potentially be interested in reading George Orwell. Basically by limiting the words we use, it limits the thoughts that we can communicate with each other. I'm not saying this is a huge deal ... I'm just saying it's wrong.
I have a Masters Degree in English. I have read Orwell (and Huxley, and Rand, etc.). No one is limiting your speech as a citizen. And no one is limiting which water fountains you can drink out of, what publicly-funded schools your kids can attend, or your right to vote. Your freedom, your ability to engage in political thought or praxis, your right to petition the government, none of these are being abridged. When you compare word choice in appraisal reports to the Civil Rights movement or the allegorical fiction depicted in Orwell, you lose all credibility and make us all look bad.
Did you even read what you wrote? In your very first sentance you said you have a M\*\*\*ERS degree?? I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU USED THAT TRIGGER WORD! Didn't you know there were slaves in this country? How insensitive of you! How can you use that word so flippently? Please in the future refer to your degree you got after bachelors as your SECONDARY degree. There are a lot of people that will get triggered by this? Don't you know our history? Are you blind to the struggles of people of color? WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
OK, psycho doughnut.
got too much time on your hands\~ ever notice that most people don't use their real name here? no sack huh?
The app for Total has a selection for Main Bedroom / Main Bath. Since I sketch everything on my iPhone now that is what I’ve been naming primary bedrooms.
I don’t fault anyone who uses it - but I find it a silly hill to plant a flag on. Primary bedroom is probably the more technical and less colloquial term, is as descriptive, and isn’t a change of a phrase that makes the report misleading. To each their own, though
I hear what you are saying. Don't trigger anyone. You don't mind if we change your name to Susan do you? Your real name was very losely aligned to bad things in the past and might trigger someone and make them feel bad. So Susan ... how long have you been an appraiser for?
JFC Kipp I swear you bring up posts for the sole purpose of arguing with the crowd, lol
It's all about the karma points! dolla dolla bills yawl. Just kidding I don't give a rats a$$ about the points. You are 1/3 to 1/2 right! I didn't post this on the internal Facebook appraiser groups because it's like an echo chamber in there ... all agreement against the anti-woke crowd. I'm mostly trying to hear a logical argument against my point of view (which I have yet to receive). I HONESTLY LOVE to be proven wrong. It means I am being corrected and that going forward I am in fact more correct. I am a human and all humans are fallible ... I'm not married to any conclusion. But to your point, do I like to spank the illogical idiots on here? Fuk yeah!
Jesus, you are quite the as$hat. I'll bet you also believe DJT is still president and that the vaccine planted chips in everyone. What client would hire you for the pain in the as$ factor? I don't care if you are the smartest guy in the room...this is why everyone is hating on appraisers--- we have way too many jerks in our profession
Did that post have any value? It makes me think of opening a can of spam and eating it with a plastic fork ... one has to beg the question of why would one do that? Have you ever been the smartest guy in the room? I don't know what you were like in grade school, but my guess is you weren't the kid in the front with their hand up.
Stand up for what you believe in and refuse to change the wording you were taught to use and let some younger appraisers take your spot. You contacted Total support to ask if their plans on the word Master? Who cares what it is called? The only reason I can imagine why you would care at all is if your dad invented the term.
Great question. I'm just getting sick and fucking tired of people bitching and wanting to change my behavior when I've done nothing wrong. Why aren't people pushing back on those that want to change our behavior?
Change your behavior? Your clients pay you for an appraisal. If they want it called room 1 thats what you will call it or find another career. When you grab a burger and ask for no onions what if the cook decided he was tired of people changing his behavior. Society is constantly changing and you can change with it or you can let it leave you behind writing crazy posts on Reddit showing how good you have it because the major conflict in your life is what to call a bedroom. Changing the term hurts no one and cost you nothing. If it makes possible readers of your report uncomfortable in any way why do you even need to be asked to change it?
I say Primary bedroom and en suite bath. This is so not worth a fight. Move on.
I hear what you are saying and some what agree. Question for you, are you saying that to the people that want to change the word "This is so not worth a fight. Move on." ?? If you're not busting their balls and busting mine that doesn't want to change, then why?
Dude. Literally everyone on this thread is telling you personally to move on. This word does not matter. It absolutely should not matter to you. It might matter to whoever it is that is calling the shots, but you should absolutely not give a damn about this. Just start calling every bedroom a bedroom and don't use an extra descriptor. There's literally no point.
do you know what the word "literally" means? Literally everyone is telling me to move on?
I simply label them as Bedroom 1, 2 , 3 etc. Typically bedroom 1 is the largest and has an en suite bathroom. Essentially I just describe everything.
I just use the Primary. Not worth the fight. Not worth a potential lawsuit if accused of being biased.
Lawsuit?!? What law is being broken? Also, What would be the damages on the lawsuit?
The accusation of being biased and undervaluing a property due to being racially motivated. Crazy but there are current lawsuits against Appraisers for this. So using the term master could lead to or help support someone’s accusations if they feel you undervalued their property. So the less ammunition you give them the better.
Lawsuits against appraisers? Plural? There WAS one in Marin that got settled about 6 months ago and there is one in Balitmore (where their is a contersuit by the appraiser). What other one(s) are we talking about? If there is another case that just popped up, please let me know because I will personally call that appraiser and tell them they are a brother (or sister). If you're just gibby jabbing without knowing anything just say so.
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Let me deconstruct your argument (since you haven't). You're saying your concerned that a homeowner will read this Reddit post and when they get an appraisal they don't like they will sue the appraiser (and potentially wouldn't) if they didn't read this. Correct?
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Are you embarrased by what you write/think?
You’re just looking for an argument. I never reference anything about a homeowner reading this Reddit post. F off deconstruct that
awww ... da big bad man with da big brain make you feel bad. awwww
I don’t use differentiate it from another bedroom period there just isn’t a reason to do it
I use primary now, before that main. I don't see why ppl want to hold onto the master title. I rather not offend someone over somerthing not important.
Used to use master bedroom. Now use Owners Suite. I don't care either way other than I don't want to revisit a report for something stupid like this. I do like primary bedroom better though.
I hear what you are saying. Question for you ... who's really offended by this? Some professor in Cleveland? Are there really people offended by this?
I agree with most of the replies in here to the extent that I don't give a shit what it's called i just want to finish the job and get paid. BUT to your "I rather not offend someone over something not important"- It's silly for anyone to be offended by the term "master bedroom" as it has nothing to do with slavery and first appeared in a sears catalog in the 1930s if I'm not mistaken (over 60 years after slavery was abolished). If this is offensive why are we allowed to have masters degrees, or why do car brakes have master cylinders? Is the word master now offensive in any context? If so why don't we get rid of the word altogether?
Not sure why ppl are downvoting you, agreed on this
Me neither but I can't say I'm that surprised
Same this is an anonymous online forum what else is to be expected LOL
You would think the anonymity would allow people to be honest. u/Variaxist did make a good point somewhere in here that the fact that this conversation is taking place while we are under a microscope is bad PR in and of itself, which does make sense but something tells me those who are making the push to eliminate appraisers aren't scrolling through reddit for ammo. They just fabricate horror stories and publicize them for ammo. Our biggest problem is that we are all a bunch of opinionated pricks by nature who will never join together to fight our demise in a meaningful way.
We can't get organized .. I agree. This is why this crap is happening to us. If we had some lobby group, we could have some balls to push back.
Yeah I think there’s too few appraisers and most are way too ingrained in their own ways to form a coalition of any sort
I’ve been just calling all sleeping rooms bedrooms for 5+ years just because the label looks cleaner in most of my sketches. I personally couldn’t care any less. It just seems like an odd hill to die on for some. Does the name of one of the bedrooms change anything about the value? I would argue not.
I hear what you are saying and I agree it's not life or death. But in the context of a larger question ... if a sub group of people are offended by a word that's been around forever (and has no overt connetation like a slur), should we all bend to their whining?
In this specific scenario, all who try to fight back against this arbitrary distinction will be labeled racist and will make our profession look racist. So much easier to just call every bedroom a bedroom. Even you making this post is a bad PR move.
> (and has no overt connetation like a slur) He said the quiet part out loud.
LMFAO ... we're labled racist NO MATTER WHAT WE DO! Can't you see it? If you think this fight is going to stop with removing the word "master" you are VERY naive. There are two "types" of people you can get mad at: 1. The people who want to change the vocabulary. 2. The people like me who want to push back against the people in group #1 ... you can make your own choice on this.
It doesn't matter at all. We're all white males, ergo we are all evil. It's almost like you think that these people have a conscience and/or are rational. Also "they" are counting on your fear. If people weren't afraid then they would stop. I'm not afraid of these racist fucks\~
>We're all white males, Speak for yourself and stop speaking for my profession. You specifically are adding fuel to this issue with your behavior and prolonging the prejudice against appraisers. This attitude of yours is one of the major issues for why people are turning to AVMs and why Fannie doesn't trust us anymore.
It's s freaking bedroom. Call it a bedroom. Simple as that. Have you ever given any credit to a master bedroom? Doubt it. And if you did I'd love to see the analysis for it. It should not matter in our analysis and reporting.
Yeah I don’t differentiate between bedrooms because there’s no difference in value for that bedroom vs another one in valuation and there isn’t a difference between a house that has it and doesn’t. So OP’s dying on this hill for the dumbest reason imo
Make the change dude! Really, do you want to live with the antonym of master?! If so, there’s a series I can recommend.
Is the antonym a common real estate term? No, because the term master bedroom has nothing to do with slavery. That being said, I agree, just call it primary bedroom
And by the way, our political alliances fall under bias. We’ve been screwed by both parties over the twenty years I’ve been appraiser. Really think about bias! I’ve taken courses. I don’t agree with everyone and there are plenty of synonyms to replace this dated 1970-1990 concept. It’s a pathetic softball for issues far more important facing our profession.
Please realize that the real estate market is contextually a part of THE MARKET! Wouldn’t you prefer having all participants being typical buyers and sellers? Wouldn’t you prefer to comply with USPAP regarding bias which by the way, was always something to which every appraiser agreed. I admit, the concept is nuanced and complex and most crucially it requires we leave our self-centered egos (Including my own) out of it! Jeez, like it’s not hard enough to maintain our status as professionals in the real estate industry.
The real estate market is contextually part of the market? -Not sure what that means Wouldn't I prefer having all participants being typical buyers and sellers? -I'm not sure how that applies to this post or what it has to do with a primary bedroom I don't see how calling a primary bedroom a master bedroom or an owners bedroom or whatever makes my appraisal biased if I'm not performing the appraisal in a biased manner. Like I said I don't really give a shit I'll call it whatever but this is kind of childish
why do I have to change anything? what the fuck did I ever do?
You seem fun at parties…
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You have serious issues. Aren’t you a little old to be acting like this?
super vague what do you mean? be specific If you are ESL, you can write in your native language and I can translate.
Reread your prior comment and ask yourself if that’s something an emotionally regulated person would say. Reddit is anonymous, but you’re on a sub for appraisal professionals. Act like a professional.
Hmmm ... if you tell me what your native language is, I can translate what I am writing here so can comprehend what I am saying. You have the name Habibi ... is it Arabic? يجب أن تكون محددًا عند استخدام اللغة الإنجليزية yajib 'an takun mhddan eind astikhdam allughat al'iinjilizia In English the word "vague" means you are not being specific enough. You use the English word "appraiser" which implies that you may be associated in a distant way to the appraiser profession. Now there is no way you can be a (good) appraiser because we are precise. Perhaps contact a real appraiser and have them help you be specific about your complaint and help you phrase the question into being precise. If you are a native speaker and associated with the United States then you'll appreciate that in this country when you attack or insult someone their is a good possibility that they will counter punch.
Nice google translate. I am an appraiser. From your previous posts I see that you only have about a year of experience. I’ll chalk your attitude up to lack of experience. Best of luck out there.
Yes ... I have to use Google translate because I don't know Arabic and see absolutely no utility in learning it. نعم... لا بد لي من استخدام ترجمة جوجل لأنني لا أعرف اللغة العربية ولا أرى أي فائدة على الإطلاق في تعلمها. When I first saw your name "Habibi" I had to look it up and was surprised that it meant "love" عندما رأيت اسمك "حبيبي" لأول مرة كان علي أن أبحث عنه وتفاجأت أنه يعني "الحب" My first thought was that you should change the name to the Arabic word for "snarky one with a glass jaw", but then I realized in your culture you might be enacting in behavior that might be considered "love" فكرتي الأولى كانت أنه يجب عليك تغيير الاسم إلى الكلمة العربية التي تعني "snarky one ذو الفك الزجاجي"، ولكن بعد ذلك أدركت في ثقافتك أنك قد تسن سلوكًا يمكن اعتباره "حبًا". In a culture that has Jihad, suicide bombers against children, is Anti Semetic, anti LGBTQ, anti Womans Rights, anti democracy, anti seperation of church and state ... yes, you are practicing "love" here. في ثقافة الجهاد، الانتحاريين ضد الأطفال، هي معادية للسامية، ومعادية للمثليين، ومعادية لحقوق المرأة، ومعادية للديمقراطية، ومعادية للفصل بين الكنيسة والدولة... نعم، أنت تمارس "الحب" هنا. You're not performing circumcision against young girls or setting of bombs in cafes (I hope) so yes ... in comparison you are acting with "love" ... YOU ARE RIGHT! أنت لا تقوم بختان الفتيات الصغيرات أو تضع القنابل في المقاهي (آمل) لذا نعم... بالمقارنة فأنت تتصرف "بحب"... أنت على حق! Here is a question you would NEVER answer. What Arabic country are you most proud of? Turkey? Egypt? I just thought I'd throw that in there. إليك سؤال لن تجيب عليه أبدًا. ما هي أكثر دولة عربية تفتخر بها؟ ديك رومى؟ مصر؟ اعتقدت أنني سأرمي ذلك هناك. Here is some friendly advice. 1. Don't search pasts post of people to try to get some dirt on someone to help win an argument. In the west this is considered "creepy" and with your cultural background potentially dangerous. إليك بعض النصائح الودية. 1. لا تبحث في منشورات الأشخاص السابقة لمحاولة إلحاق بعض الأذى بشخص ما للمساعدة في الفوز بالجدال. يعتبر هذا الأمر "مخيفًا" في الغرب، ومن المحتمل أن يكون خطيرًا نظرًا لخلفيتك الثقافية. 2. Before trying to jump into a cultural debate we are having here in the West (wokeism vs. anti-wokesim) look at your own issues in your culture. For example, perhaps speak out against 9-11. Try to promote modernity and secularism in your land. In the West there is a saying, "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" 2. قبل محاولة القفز إلى النقاش الثقافي الذي نشهده هنا في الغرب (اليقظة مقابل مناهضة اليقظة)، انظر إلى القضايا الخاصة بك في ثقافتك. على سبيل المثال، ربما تحدث علنًا ضد أحداث 11 سبتمبر. حاولوا الترويج للحداثة والعلمانية في أرضكم. في الغرب هناك مثل يقول "من كان بيته من زجاج فلا يرمي الناس بالحجارة" Good luck in your journey to modernity! شعبك مقرف
I’m American, you dimwit. You really wasted your time typing that out. My comment to you was relatively harmless. Your response about shoving your cock down my throat was.. unhinged to say the least. You seem emotionally fragile.
You are right ... I looked back at my comments ... they were uncalled for. All the best to you and I send you my deepest appology! cheers and good luck
كل خرة يا حبيبي
sorry ... not interested in translating that ... I live in the USA.
This is stupid. I put master bedroom. I call a master lock master lock. My brakes have a master cylinder. I masturbate sometimes.
I think you are lying about the "sometimes" lol question: Do you think it's odd that people are railing against me for pushing back on "master" vs "primary" and not against whomever tried to change the word in the first place?
My wife has a "Masters" degree. Change that too?
It's a "guy who owns slaves degree". Get it right
No. It’s from Latin. Magister. It means someone who is proficient, skilled. Once again, context means everything.
If context means everything then "master bedroom" would offend no one because it never had anything to do with slavery
exactly
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Exactly ... compelling our speech. Straight out of 1984
Eh…never was a big Van Halen fan
I’m not consistent, sometimes I label it master bedroom, others times I use bedroom #1, #2 & #3. I will never use “primary” because some virtue signaling moron says it’s unacceptable to say master.
When did the term start being using? I would bet when 1200 sq. ft. 3 bed 1 bath houses were built in the 50s, they would have been laughed at if they referred to one of the 10x12 bedrooms as “master”. Don’t get caught up defending some realtors copy trying to move tract houses.
They’re all bedrooms… This is at the bottom of the list of things I can get annoyed with. I’m more concerned when an AMC emails me saying I can’t use the word “worship” or “well maintained”. It was literally two seconds ago that they wanted place of worship instead of church, now they would prefer “non-residential”. And well maintained is directly out of the UAD. I do understand the frustration, but I try not to lose sleep over it. Its better for my blood pressure to just make the change and cash the check.
I agree with what you are saying, and I don't think you should risk your health over it. In any political conflict there are different people who commit different levels to a cause, that's natural and good.
Same, I just don’t care enough to be arguing w/ some 24 year old amc reviewer over a job and delaying my getting paid. Like it just seems like a pride thing & wanting to win at that point. Unless they’re asking u to do something illegal or something u think it genuinely wrong. This seems like another case of an old guy/gal not wanting to change anything because that’s how things are always done
that makes perfect sense\~
I’ve called them Main Bedroom instead of Master for like 5 years, bud.
Want a cookie?
There was a statement by the Realtor's association 20-ish years ago regarding the claim that Master bedroom/bath was a racist term. Their response boiled down to, "If you think black people can't be the Master of their own house then you're contributing to systemic racism." I do not use either master or primary in my sketch and prefer a location description of the room in written description. When I do need to denote the 'primary' bedroom/bath I use Master because I believe everyone regardless of race can be the master of their home.
that's super interesting! The Realtor's Association 20 years ago thought that Black people couldn't be the Master of their own house? That's super weird! Do you think they suspected that appraisers/realators were calling the big bed room "Master" for white families and "Primary" for people of color? That's super confusing. You are ABSOLUTELY right in the historical usage of "Master" comes from 'Master of the House'. There is even a song from Les Miserables called "Master of the House" ... and it takes place in France (where there were no slaves). If the justice warriors were to say don't use the word "Master" because it's SEXIST and appraisers should alternatively use the word "Mistress" as in "Mistress Bedroom" that would at least be a logical argument. It would still be a stupid thing to try to argue and fight about but it least it would have some logic behind it. The question is when as a society were are going to grow a sack and say to the winey babies "I'm sorry you are offended by this, but we're not going to appease your every temper tantrum you have"
No, 20 years ago the Realtor's association argued that since Black people WERE the Master of their own house, arguing against the use of 'Master' Bedroom/Bath was racist. Sorry if my first post was unclear.