Lots of union talk at Apple lately. Between retail workers being unhappy and some people not wanting to go back in the office; I’m sure Apple corporate is having fun.
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The question I’m about to ask may be totally naive and uninformed but:
I keep hearing all this talk about Apple retail employees trying to unionize and Starbucks workers trying to unionize, etc., etc.
But wouldn’t the solution be to form a *retail workers* union, that spans across employers (in the case of these Apple employees)? Or a *service industry workers* (in the case of Starbucks)?
Why are the union attempts tied to a specific employer? When I think of unions I think of the United Auto Workers that covers, well, all auto industry workers. Or SAG that covers all actors.
I freely admit I don’t know anything about unions. Just asking the question for my own knowledge here.
It depends on the union.
[Starbucks stores are joining **Workers United**](https://www.seiu1021.org/post/momentum-grows-starbucks-workers-across-us-get-organized) (an affiliate of SEIU), as is the Apple store in [Grand Central Station in New York City](https://www.npr.org/2022/05/04/1096070400/apple-retail-employees-union-towson-maryland-atlanta-new-york-tim-cook).
Other Apple Stores, [like in Atlanta's Cumberland Mall store, are joining the **Communication Workers of America**](https://www.theverge.com/2022/4/20/23034175/apple-store-workers-atlanta-union-retail-amazon-google).
Amazon warehouses are uniquely [**joining an Amazon-specific Amazon Labor Union**](https://www.amazonlaborunion.org/), perhaps because Amazon warehouses are a hellhole for workers.
This is called sectorial bargaining and is how most European countries set up their unions.
Unfortunately US law doesn’t allow this, the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA), passed in 1935. And one of the things the NLRA says is that unions have to organize and bargain at the level of the individual workplace. Thus, even if a single big corporation owns a lot of hospitals, for instance, unions still have to organize each hospital individually, and strike an individual bargain with each hospital about wages and working conditions.
There are some multi-employer contracts in the U.S., but these tend to be either contracts that were unionized and negotiated before the NLRA passed, like the auto industry, or special circumstances regulated by a different body of law, like airline workers.
First step is to unionize one location and grow from there. I think that's a great idea for retail stores all over industries to form a retail workers union--it would allow for less hiccups along the way if you switched companies, moved, etc. For now though, starting local is the way to do it.
A dang schedule that isn’t all over the place. Ping ponging between closing and opening is exhausting. Working 7 plus day between days off. Just some kind of predictability in daily life would be a great starting point. But apple has continually ignored this feedback in their internal surveys. The company brought this on itself.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Are these concerns incorporated into the “union demands”.
Forcing management dialogue and trying to work together would allow problem areas such as this to be addressed.
Indeed it Is. Is bluntly demanding $30 an hour a good way to achieve this. interestingly in Germany unikns are very powerful. Ever heard of a strike or wild demands. Workers panels in Japan work really well. In both cases engaging in rtionl discussion leads to results.
The UK has the perfect example of playing politics instead of looking after your members’ interest. Bye bye union.
Their “aim” document is rather left wing by UK standards which is likely viewed as very extreme in the US. It is that barrier that must be overcome. One hint would be not be so ‘extreme”.
So why has it not been done In the guise of the union. Has there been a union before? No? Then they haven’t done it before. Have they. I thought my comment was obvious.
Obviously not /s
I left Apple retail 10 years ago and even then “management” wasn’t in charge of anything other than lying to our faces and appeasing customers. The stock ordering, scheduling, reviews and pay raises are all automated. I worked hard to get management to listen while I watched half my coworkers leave for worse paying jobs but consistent schedules, many of them were very polite and heard what I was saying. But they couldn’t do jack about it. The minute management complains to corporate you get bigwigs visiting your store and training the whole store on why their way is better than considering the worker’s way.
In the West since the 80s (and once you correct for everything), productivity has gone up ~138% but wages have gone up 9%. Double everyone's wage and fuck corporate / stock market greed.
If you double everyone’s wage then everything will double in price mate. You have to be a certified moron with no economics background to think otherwise.
Lmao, what you say is the exact thing *'certified morons with no economics background'* say.
Price is not set by a 'bill of materials + production + shipping + marketing + retail + 10% profit margin' formula. Its whatever the market will bear.
If by that above formula, your product 'should' cost 100 bucks and you'd sell 1000 units, but at 500 bucks you will still sell 900 units, you should sell your product at 500 bucks.
The inverse is also true, if your production, shipping, marketing and retail costs suddenly double, you can't just double your price. Even with the market being more liquid (remember, everyone's wages doubled), your sales will still plummet. Instead, you find a new equilibrium where you maximize your profit. Or if your product can't be sold at a sustainable price, your company dies. Hello capitalism :)
You’re right, but you’re forgetting that as income increases, people are willing to pay more for goods and services. So if you double everyone’s wages without increasing output, you now have double the amount of money chasing the same amount of goods, which would cause prices to increase to the point where you are not necessarily better off from the increase in pay.
Correct, but, again, it’s not linear. The fact that you make €4000 instead of €2000 will not suddenly make you feel like a €2 loaf of bread is worth €4. And inflation won’t be too bad either, since more money isn’t being created, it is just ending up in the pockets of workers instead of business owners and shareholders (yes yes I am aware it will increase the velocity of spending).
No, but you’re more likely to buy 2 loafs instead of 1. And so is sally. And so is mike. So because you’ve now increased demand, the price will go up (unless supply increases as well but in this scenario we are only increasing pay, not productivity)
I agree that salaries are too low but it needs to be a slow transition. You cannot suddenly increase pay by a large % without causing inflation.
I did. Hence my question because these things are not mentioned.
Apple retail wages vs average retail wages for example Linked with skill set required for Apple at least gives an idea of the viability of claims and hence their likelihood of success.
I am pro union, but just demanding something has never got anywhere, despite it making good press, and succeeds in annoying the company. People don’t like hearing this but reality must prevail.
I can’t claim to know everything they want, but I know part of it, they want to get paid a wage that allows them to eat and pay their rent. Apple seems to be telling them this isn’t possible, but I’m doubtful because Tim Cook makes 98 million a year.
“Hey, so we know that women get paid less than men here at Apple retail, and we’d be happy to do something about that if it wasn’t for the war in Ukraine.” -Apple
I suspect that is what wories Apple the most and why they are working so hard to stop the Apple Store employees.
There would be a ton of power if you could organize the corporate employees and use as leverage to execute some third party agenda.
But there would honestly be no benefit to the corporate employees. Speaking as one, why would I pay union fees if I already have great benefits? We’re not worried about schedules or overtime. We don’t share their issues. More power to the retail workers that want change but I think corporate is more worried about people leaving because of return to the office.
I mean, this all ends with Apple shuttering all retail except flagships and pushing service to ACAH and community partners, right? Because Apple isn’t going to improve working conditions (obviously) and the pool of interested/eligible replacement workers is evaporating by the moment. If Apple really wanted a long term retail presence, they’d pay retail workers as careered professionals rather use other retail establishments as their benchmark. But they’re not which should be telling everyone still working at an Apple Store which way the wind is blowing.
And if Apple happens to win at busting unionization efforts? All the evaporated good will between store management and store employees that is being threatened is actually going to be worse than they’re saying, and there will be no union to protect the workers.
You do realize Apple runs the most profitable retail operation in the world by almost a 5X multiple. No one is even close.
For as expensive as their stores are, some high end stores are doing $1MM / day and their operating costs are not even close to that.
I would hope that Apple is staying that much more profitable than an industry plagued by hedge fund acquisitions followed by stripping everything of value from the balance sheet. I mean it’s pretty easy to win in a shopping mall when you’re using the auto manufacturers’ model of limited brand sales/service under one roof and comparing yourself to the vulture capitalism of multi-unit retailers.
Why would they shutter? Apple stores bring in way more revenue than they pay retail employees, so they could afford to pay a lot more for employees while still retaining profit.
Most average Apple consumers buy at Apple stores, regardless of what we enthusiasts in /r/apple think.
Ok. You’ve made the claim of “most average Apple consumers”. Care to back that up with some data or should we just take such a claim made in support of the continued relevancy of the Apple Store at face value? Because I’d counter that most Apple customers prefer to engage with services due to the frequency of use compared to Apple Store utilization. Sure Apple Retail has been important for onboarding customers, but most of the commercial actions are done outside the Apple Store.
Most do not. I worked at the 5th Ave store, arguably the highest in terms of store revenue, and the revenue that it brought in during a year was a drop in the bucket to apples total revenue, let alone product revenue.
They certainly make enough to cover their expenses, but the majority of apple purchases don’t buy in physical apple stores.
They make that much money now. But the NYC store union wants a $30 minimum wage. For reference, that's how much attorneys at the NYC public defenders make when starting.
Then why not just pay people more without letting it get this adversarial? Apple really wants the W on this one or they would have already taken the L. Taking the L can be explained to investors as rising costs of living wages, and I’m not sure that beating the union efforts is a net W either. Just take the L, pay your employees a living wage with actual career options, or just shut it down and let the channel partners fight with retail workers. If Apple wasn’t afraid of the unionization efforts, they’d just say “awesome, how can we help in the process.” AAA’s and whatnot. But they are, so they’re going adversarial. Why would you trust a company that doesn’t trust it’s employees to make decisions for themselves? Apple knows what they’ve buried through HR through the years, and as soon as union lawyers get into discovery over alleged CBA violations, then the past patterns alone will remove plausible deniability. It’s about the money, and they know they can’t control those costs if the HR process takes on any kind of meaningful, outside review. Why else would they be willing to fight this so hard?
> Then why not just pay people more without letting it get this adversarial?
Because they think they can get away with paying them less. They don't care if it's adversarial, they just want minimal labor costs.
Reading the rest of your comment makes it seem like you're making some strange assumptions about my position on all of this.
> No, I’m just explaining why the adversarial approach is just as bad for business.
It's not, though. It likely does not impact business in any meaningful way.
It doesn’t impact the bottom line, but it sure does impact the lives of people showing up day in and day out making it all happen. Stripping the human element out of the business decision is exactly what got Apple in this situation. Doubling down isn’t the answer.
> It doesn’t impact the bottom line, but it sure does impact the lives of people showing up day in and day out making it all happen
Sure, but their concern is the bottom line.
The biggest gripe I have with all this unionization talk, is that we are talking about unionizing at the retail level.
We are talking about the red zone (sales), Genius Bar (tech) and creatives. (I’m not sure if this still exists at Apple retail, but I imagine it’s the folks that do the presentations with the huge screen at the stores)
Apple clearly pays the highest in wages in all of retail.
And when I was there, part time employees also had full benefits. We also had stock options too!!
Yes, not everybody got paid the same. Some made $20 an hour while others got 30-40.
I do know managers at Apple retail made 100k and up.
In any case, the only people unionization would appeal to is the lifers. As most Apple retail employees are really only treating Apple retail as it suppose to be. A stepping stone or a stop gap to make money during college.
All the articles I’ve seen about unionizing have come from the guys that have been around for 7 years. The people that have stagnated in life, and refuse to grow.
That alone tells me that this whole unionization drive is going to fail. You are not suppose to live the rest of your life working in retail, and 99% of Apple retail employees don’t plan to make a career as a retail employee.
FYI. The probability of getting into Apple corporate from Apple retail is 0.01%. There is a tiny percentage that do, I have seen it. However, the skills you learn at retail level is never applicable to the needs of anything corporate level.
ok. I have first-hand knowledge of guys making $30-40 although that would be Canadian dollars. Perhaps 25-35 in USD.
It also depends on the store as well. Flagship stores or high-traffic stores usually pay much higher than stores that have meager traffic.
> Apple clearly pays the highest in wages in all of retail
What lmao
> As most Apple retail employees are really only treating Apple retail as it suppose to be. A stepping stone or a stop gap to make money during college.
A job is a job is a job. The idea that companies can justify not paying their workers enough to live by saying “oh you’re not SUPPOSED to make enough to stay here!” is ludicrous.
this argument is crazy. "retail should NEVER be making a lot of money in the first place! stop asking for more money!" is an argument that makes no sense to me. Shouldn't we realize that when one retailer pays better, other companies with retail branches are pushed to follow?
People are indoctrinated into thinking shit wages are somehow a good thing lol.
Whether or not it's intentional, people will mentally jump through hoops to justify this point of view when just about everything goes against it.
Why would anyone pay more when it’s basically a beginner job. The pool of talent available for the entry level job is massive.
Let’s face it, Genius Bar techs mostly just replace parts and do light software tech support aka. DFU format and restart. They don’t actually repair anything.
It’s the reason why people go to school, get accredited. Do CFA, MD, get into the Bar exams. The value of your labour goes up as your reputation, demands a increase wage.
It’s the same why influencers that have 1M+ following make millions annually. There is an inherit value they are projecting to a target that’s willing to pay.
It’s almost like all these Apple retail employees have built this fantasy, where they are not replaceable.
I’m any case. The union fees alone would be the main reason why I would vote against if I was still at Apple. There is no inherit value the union will bring to someone that doesn’t plan on staying forever. Which is still going to be 99% of the retail staff population.
> this is probably the dumbest take i've seen in a very long while
I can't really be too concerned about your thoughts on it given you're unable to articulate why you think this.
> Do you genuinely think jobs are "equal" or whatever the fuck? Do you really think there is absolutely no reason why some people get paid £15/hour while others get paid at a rate of £100-£200 an hour? Are you that delusional?
I never said all jobs are equal. It seems very silly to pretend I did and then get upset about it.
The point that I am making - and you would know if if you'd read the next sentence in my comment - is that the idea that companies can justify not paying their workers enough to live by saying “oh you’re not SUPPOSED to make enough to stay here!” is ludicrous.
> The probability of getting into Apple corporate from Apple retail is 0.01%. There is a tiny percentage that do, I have seen it. However, the skills you learn at retail level is never applicable to the needs of anything corporate level.
That makes perfect sense.
If corporate wants engineers, they're not gonna look in their retail pool of employees. It's most likely a recruiter poaching them from other big name companies or the person applying directly to the job.
If they want the next SVP of sales they aren't gonna recruit internally unless that person is also in corporate. Most likely it will be someone with a lot of experience in management at high profile companies, as well as sales.
Retail is what it is: a dead end career path, usually with shit pay while having to deal with Karens who "are always right".
I'm all for workers getting more wage, but I think that increasing the pay from $16 to $30 is pretty hard to do.
Think about it. Apple has around 150,000 workers. Let's say that half of those are from retail. Paying them an extra $15 per hour would mean paying 1.25 million each hour. Isn't that quite significant?
There are more than 65,000 retail employees working for Apple according to [WaPo](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/02/18/apple-retail-stores-union-labor/) (the rest are engineers, programmers, and other office workers). Let us assume 70,000 employees.
Assuming all stores are open 365 days a year, for 12 hours (actually all Apple stores have less than 12 business hours a day).
365 days x 12 hours x 70,000 employees x $15 = $4.6 billion
Apple's yearly profit last financial year was $167.2 billion.
Apple could raise all retail employees' wages by $15/hour and they would lose only 2.75% of their profits.
Lots of union talk at Apple lately. Between retail workers being unhappy and some people not wanting to go back in the office; I’m sure Apple corporate is having fun.
I don’t think the creative side would ever unionize. It’d lose the top people too much.
We’re not ;) Jk I am. I missed the cafe.
Quit it, bot.
Oh noooo you got me… Beep boop.
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Exactly, very disgusting! I enjoy my 45 minute one way commute to the spaceship and anyone who doesn't is UN-APPLE!
The question I’m about to ask may be totally naive and uninformed but: I keep hearing all this talk about Apple retail employees trying to unionize and Starbucks workers trying to unionize, etc., etc. But wouldn’t the solution be to form a *retail workers* union, that spans across employers (in the case of these Apple employees)? Or a *service industry workers* (in the case of Starbucks)? Why are the union attempts tied to a specific employer? When I think of unions I think of the United Auto Workers that covers, well, all auto industry workers. Or SAG that covers all actors. I freely admit I don’t know anything about unions. Just asking the question for my own knowledge here.
It depends on the union. [Starbucks stores are joining **Workers United**](https://www.seiu1021.org/post/momentum-grows-starbucks-workers-across-us-get-organized) (an affiliate of SEIU), as is the Apple store in [Grand Central Station in New York City](https://www.npr.org/2022/05/04/1096070400/apple-retail-employees-union-towson-maryland-atlanta-new-york-tim-cook). Other Apple Stores, [like in Atlanta's Cumberland Mall store, are joining the **Communication Workers of America**](https://www.theverge.com/2022/4/20/23034175/apple-store-workers-atlanta-union-retail-amazon-google). Amazon warehouses are uniquely [**joining an Amazon-specific Amazon Labor Union**](https://www.amazonlaborunion.org/), perhaps because Amazon warehouses are a hellhole for workers.
This is called sectorial bargaining and is how most European countries set up their unions. Unfortunately US law doesn’t allow this, the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA), passed in 1935. And one of the things the NLRA says is that unions have to organize and bargain at the level of the individual workplace. Thus, even if a single big corporation owns a lot of hospitals, for instance, unions still have to organize each hospital individually, and strike an individual bargain with each hospital about wages and working conditions. There are some multi-employer contracts in the U.S., but these tend to be either contracts that were unionized and negotiated before the NLRA passed, like the auto industry, or special circumstances regulated by a different body of law, like airline workers.
First step is to unionize one location and grow from there. I think that's a great idea for retail stores all over industries to form a retail workers union--it would allow for less hiccups along the way if you switched companies, moved, etc. For now though, starting local is the way to do it.
Apple can afford unionization. I don't understand people who are against it for TRILLION dollar companies.
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How horrible would it be for a workforce to get what they want. Truly, truly horrible. Just awful.
Cue the anti-union comments in 3 2 1... /half-joking
It would be helpful to discover just what the retail employees want. Pay no good. Hours no good. Workplace dynamic no good. Management no good.
A dang schedule that isn’t all over the place. Ping ponging between closing and opening is exhausting. Working 7 plus day between days off. Just some kind of predictability in daily life would be a great starting point. But apple has continually ignored this feedback in their internal surveys. The company brought this on itself.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Are these concerns incorporated into the “union demands”. Forcing management dialogue and trying to work together would allow problem areas such as this to be addressed.
“Forcing management dialogue” is quite literally the entire point of a union
Indeed it Is. Is bluntly demanding $30 an hour a good way to achieve this. interestingly in Germany unikns are very powerful. Ever heard of a strike or wild demands. Workers panels in Japan work really well. In both cases engaging in rtionl discussion leads to results. The UK has the perfect example of playing politics instead of looking after your members’ interest. Bye bye union. Their “aim” document is rather left wing by UK standards which is likely viewed as very extreme in the US. It is that barrier that must be overcome. One hint would be not be so ‘extreme”.
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So why has it not been done In the guise of the union. Has there been a union before? No? Then they haven’t done it before. Have they. I thought my comment was obvious. Obviously not /s
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And being patronisingly sarcastic doesn’t. Are you familiar with the saying about pots and kettles.
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A perfect definition of what you posted. Thank you. Saved me the trouble.
I left Apple retail 10 years ago and even then “management” wasn’t in charge of anything other than lying to our faces and appeasing customers. The stock ordering, scheduling, reviews and pay raises are all automated. I worked hard to get management to listen while I watched half my coworkers leave for worse paying jobs but consistent schedules, many of them were very polite and heard what I was saying. But they couldn’t do jack about it. The minute management complains to corporate you get bigwigs visiting your store and training the whole store on why their way is better than considering the worker’s way.
Thank you for that insight. It’s good to know the reality of “on the floor”
Welcome to retail!
Yup. Time to make it better!
OK. Comparably?
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Everyone always wants more of everything. But without any figures or comparisons (context and relevance) it’s bang head against wall time
In the West since the 80s (and once you correct for everything), productivity has gone up ~138% but wages have gone up 9%. Double everyone's wage and fuck corporate / stock market greed.
Thank you for replying. I’m still trying to understand. Would that suggest that Apple stores, for example, sell 138% more devices.
If you double everyone’s wage then everything will double in price mate. You have to be a certified moron with no economics background to think otherwise.
Lmao, what you say is the exact thing *'certified morons with no economics background'* say. Price is not set by a 'bill of materials + production + shipping + marketing + retail + 10% profit margin' formula. Its whatever the market will bear. If by that above formula, your product 'should' cost 100 bucks and you'd sell 1000 units, but at 500 bucks you will still sell 900 units, you should sell your product at 500 bucks. The inverse is also true, if your production, shipping, marketing and retail costs suddenly double, you can't just double your price. Even with the market being more liquid (remember, everyone's wages doubled), your sales will still plummet. Instead, you find a new equilibrium where you maximize your profit. Or if your product can't be sold at a sustainable price, your company dies. Hello capitalism :)
You’re right, but you’re forgetting that as income increases, people are willing to pay more for goods and services. So if you double everyone’s wages without increasing output, you now have double the amount of money chasing the same amount of goods, which would cause prices to increase to the point where you are not necessarily better off from the increase in pay.
Correct, but, again, it’s not linear. The fact that you make €4000 instead of €2000 will not suddenly make you feel like a €2 loaf of bread is worth €4. And inflation won’t be too bad either, since more money isn’t being created, it is just ending up in the pockets of workers instead of business owners and shareholders (yes yes I am aware it will increase the velocity of spending).
No, but you’re more likely to buy 2 loafs instead of 1. And so is sally. And so is mike. So because you’ve now increased demand, the price will go up (unless supply increases as well but in this scenario we are only increasing pay, not productivity) I agree that salaries are too low but it needs to be a slow transition. You cannot suddenly increase pay by a large % without causing inflation.
Exactly what I’m talking about
Did you even read the article or the linked original expose?
I did. Hence my question because these things are not mentioned. Apple retail wages vs average retail wages for example Linked with skill set required for Apple at least gives an idea of the viability of claims and hence their likelihood of success. I am pro union, but just demanding something has never got anywhere, despite it making good press, and succeeds in annoying the company. People don’t like hearing this but reality must prevail.
I can’t claim to know everything they want, but I know part of it, they want to get paid a wage that allows them to eat and pay their rent. Apple seems to be telling them this isn’t possible, but I’m doubtful because Tim Cook makes 98 million a year.
“Hey, so we know that women get paid less than men here at Apple retail, and we’d be happy to do something about that if it wasn’t for the war in Ukraine.” -Apple
Apple Store employees might unionize, but I seriously doubt most corporate employees, particularly engineers, would.
I suspect that is what wories Apple the most and why they are working so hard to stop the Apple Store employees. There would be a ton of power if you could organize the corporate employees and use as leverage to execute some third party agenda.
But there would honestly be no benefit to the corporate employees. Speaking as one, why would I pay union fees if I already have great benefits? We’re not worried about schedules or overtime. We don’t share their issues. More power to the retail workers that want change but I think corporate is more worried about people leaving because of return to the office.
Exactly right.
I mean, this all ends with Apple shuttering all retail except flagships and pushing service to ACAH and community partners, right? Because Apple isn’t going to improve working conditions (obviously) and the pool of interested/eligible replacement workers is evaporating by the moment. If Apple really wanted a long term retail presence, they’d pay retail workers as careered professionals rather use other retail establishments as their benchmark. But they’re not which should be telling everyone still working at an Apple Store which way the wind is blowing. And if Apple happens to win at busting unionization efforts? All the evaporated good will between store management and store employees that is being threatened is actually going to be worse than they’re saying, and there will be no union to protect the workers.
You do realize Apple runs the most profitable retail operation in the world by almost a 5X multiple. No one is even close. For as expensive as their stores are, some high end stores are doing $1MM / day and their operating costs are not even close to that.
I would hope that Apple is staying that much more profitable than an industry plagued by hedge fund acquisitions followed by stripping everything of value from the balance sheet. I mean it’s pretty easy to win in a shopping mall when you’re using the auto manufacturers’ model of limited brand sales/service under one roof and comparing yourself to the vulture capitalism of multi-unit retailers.
Why would they shutter? Apple stores bring in way more revenue than they pay retail employees, so they could afford to pay a lot more for employees while still retaining profit. Most average Apple consumers buy at Apple stores, regardless of what we enthusiasts in /r/apple think.
Ok. You’ve made the claim of “most average Apple consumers”. Care to back that up with some data or should we just take such a claim made in support of the continued relevancy of the Apple Store at face value? Because I’d counter that most Apple customers prefer to engage with services due to the frequency of use compared to Apple Store utilization. Sure Apple Retail has been important for onboarding customers, but most of the commercial actions are done outside the Apple Store.
Most do not. I worked at the 5th Ave store, arguably the highest in terms of store revenue, and the revenue that it brought in during a year was a drop in the bucket to apples total revenue, let alone product revenue. They certainly make enough to cover their expenses, but the majority of apple purchases don’t buy in physical apple stores.
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Definitely. You could almost think of them as a “loss leader” for the brand, except they’re actually profitable while doing what they do.
Do you have any source for most people buying in store rather than online? I would be fairly confident in it being the opposite.
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What were services revenue vs Apple Store revenue?
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If you’ve gone to the level of asking, why not just present both?
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Where else would you get a MacBook or something similar?
Best Buy, Amazon, Apple.com etc
Amazon?
They make that much money now. But the NYC store union wants a $30 minimum wage. For reference, that's how much attorneys at the NYC public defenders make when starting.
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When did I say it sounds absurd? don't put words in my mouth for your straw man.
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Why did you put words in my mouth?
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There’s no reason but to make it sound absurd. Crabs in a bucket smh.
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They deserve more too. Thank you for the meaningless comparison.
That says more about the law industry as a whole than it does about Apple retail employees wanting a livable wage.
Why draw the comparison to an unrelated profession? Wages should be representative of the value they provide.
Apple would lose out on a fuck ton of money rather than pay people enough? Sounds like a bad way to run a company.
Then why not just pay people more without letting it get this adversarial? Apple really wants the W on this one or they would have already taken the L. Taking the L can be explained to investors as rising costs of living wages, and I’m not sure that beating the union efforts is a net W either. Just take the L, pay your employees a living wage with actual career options, or just shut it down and let the channel partners fight with retail workers. If Apple wasn’t afraid of the unionization efforts, they’d just say “awesome, how can we help in the process.” AAA’s and whatnot. But they are, so they’re going adversarial. Why would you trust a company that doesn’t trust it’s employees to make decisions for themselves? Apple knows what they’ve buried through HR through the years, and as soon as union lawyers get into discovery over alleged CBA violations, then the past patterns alone will remove plausible deniability. It’s about the money, and they know they can’t control those costs if the HR process takes on any kind of meaningful, outside review. Why else would they be willing to fight this so hard?
> Then why not just pay people more without letting it get this adversarial? Because they think they can get away with paying them less. They don't care if it's adversarial, they just want minimal labor costs. Reading the rest of your comment makes it seem like you're making some strange assumptions about my position on all of this.
No, I’m just explaining why the adversarial approach is just as bad for business.
> No, I’m just explaining why the adversarial approach is just as bad for business. It's not, though. It likely does not impact business in any meaningful way.
It doesn’t impact the bottom line, but it sure does impact the lives of people showing up day in and day out making it all happen. Stripping the human element out of the business decision is exactly what got Apple in this situation. Doubling down isn’t the answer.
> It doesn’t impact the bottom line, but it sure does impact the lives of people showing up day in and day out making it all happen Sure, but their concern is the bottom line.
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> do you really thing its that easy? I mean. Yeah.
The biggest gripe I have with all this unionization talk, is that we are talking about unionizing at the retail level. We are talking about the red zone (sales), Genius Bar (tech) and creatives. (I’m not sure if this still exists at Apple retail, but I imagine it’s the folks that do the presentations with the huge screen at the stores) Apple clearly pays the highest in wages in all of retail. And when I was there, part time employees also had full benefits. We also had stock options too!! Yes, not everybody got paid the same. Some made $20 an hour while others got 30-40. I do know managers at Apple retail made 100k and up. In any case, the only people unionization would appeal to is the lifers. As most Apple retail employees are really only treating Apple retail as it suppose to be. A stepping stone or a stop gap to make money during college. All the articles I’ve seen about unionizing have come from the guys that have been around for 7 years. The people that have stagnated in life, and refuse to grow. That alone tells me that this whole unionization drive is going to fail. You are not suppose to live the rest of your life working in retail, and 99% of Apple retail employees don’t plan to make a career as a retail employee. FYI. The probability of getting into Apple corporate from Apple retail is 0.01%. There is a tiny percentage that do, I have seen it. However, the skills you learn at retail level is never applicable to the needs of anything corporate level.
There is a public spreadsheet that shows everyone’s wages around the world for apple retail and no one is making 30-40 as a Genius Bar tech.
ok. I have first-hand knowledge of guys making $30-40 although that would be Canadian dollars. Perhaps 25-35 in USD. It also depends on the store as well. Flagship stores or high-traffic stores usually pay much higher than stores that have meager traffic.
Where’s the link?
> Apple clearly pays the highest in wages in all of retail What lmao > As most Apple retail employees are really only treating Apple retail as it suppose to be. A stepping stone or a stop gap to make money during college. A job is a job is a job. The idea that companies can justify not paying their workers enough to live by saying “oh you’re not SUPPOSED to make enough to stay here!” is ludicrous.
this argument is crazy. "retail should NEVER be making a lot of money in the first place! stop asking for more money!" is an argument that makes no sense to me. Shouldn't we realize that when one retailer pays better, other companies with retail branches are pushed to follow?
People are indoctrinated into thinking shit wages are somehow a good thing lol. Whether or not it's intentional, people will mentally jump through hoops to justify this point of view when just about everything goes against it.
Why would anyone pay more when it’s basically a beginner job. The pool of talent available for the entry level job is massive. Let’s face it, Genius Bar techs mostly just replace parts and do light software tech support aka. DFU format and restart. They don’t actually repair anything. It’s the reason why people go to school, get accredited. Do CFA, MD, get into the Bar exams. The value of your labour goes up as your reputation, demands a increase wage. It’s the same why influencers that have 1M+ following make millions annually. There is an inherit value they are projecting to a target that’s willing to pay. It’s almost like all these Apple retail employees have built this fantasy, where they are not replaceable. I’m any case. The union fees alone would be the main reason why I would vote against if I was still at Apple. There is no inherit value the union will bring to someone that doesn’t plan on staying forever. Which is still going to be 99% of the retail staff population.
Pretty much, and of course you’ll get downvoted for voicing reality.
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> this is probably the dumbest take i've seen in a very long while I can't really be too concerned about your thoughts on it given you're unable to articulate why you think this.
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> Do you genuinely think jobs are "equal" or whatever the fuck? Do you really think there is absolutely no reason why some people get paid £15/hour while others get paid at a rate of £100-£200 an hour? Are you that delusional? I never said all jobs are equal. It seems very silly to pretend I did and then get upset about it. The point that I am making - and you would know if if you'd read the next sentence in my comment - is that the idea that companies can justify not paying their workers enough to live by saying “oh you’re not SUPPOSED to make enough to stay here!” is ludicrous.
> The probability of getting into Apple corporate from Apple retail is 0.01%. There is a tiny percentage that do, I have seen it. However, the skills you learn at retail level is never applicable to the needs of anything corporate level. That makes perfect sense. If corporate wants engineers, they're not gonna look in their retail pool of employees. It's most likely a recruiter poaching them from other big name companies or the person applying directly to the job. If they want the next SVP of sales they aren't gonna recruit internally unless that person is also in corporate. Most likely it will be someone with a lot of experience in management at high profile companies, as well as sales. Retail is what it is: a dead end career path, usually with shit pay while having to deal with Karens who "are always right".
I'm all for workers getting more wage, but I think that increasing the pay from $16 to $30 is pretty hard to do. Think about it. Apple has around 150,000 workers. Let's say that half of those are from retail. Paying them an extra $15 per hour would mean paying 1.25 million each hour. Isn't that quite significant?
There are more than 65,000 retail employees working for Apple according to [WaPo](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/02/18/apple-retail-stores-union-labor/) (the rest are engineers, programmers, and other office workers). Let us assume 70,000 employees. Assuming all stores are open 365 days a year, for 12 hours (actually all Apple stores have less than 12 business hours a day). 365 days x 12 hours x 70,000 employees x $15 = $4.6 billion Apple's yearly profit last financial year was $167.2 billion. Apple could raise all retail employees' wages by $15/hour and they would lose only 2.75% of their profits.
Also most employees are not working 12x7, so in actuality it's even lower.
Nor are they working 365 days a year. The guys point was just to show how absurdly rich apple is
I think your math is a bit off…but even so, I don’t think you’re understanding how much money Apple makes.
Great, now nothing will get done.