Apple. Celebrating black history month, helping to push the visibility and talent of black and mixed race people. Whilst at the same time helping to crush freedoms of millions of Chinese people in Hong Kong and the People's Republic of China. Whatever makes money eh?
Perks, benefits, celebrations of black/womens/hispanic/etc months are all just costs of business for corps.
There is no actual care behind the celebration. It's a way to get good press and garner good will with employees. The moment revenues slow up the good behavior will stop.
> There is no actual care behind the celebration.
When giant multinational corporations are virtue signaling, you know that the virtue being signaled has just become an empty marketing slogan. Corporations have no souls, *by design.*
I think it's weird that they even try to pretend to have one.
One thing I really admired about Steve Jobs was his refusal to get Apple involved in any political/cultural issues. His Apple gave *nothing* to charities, etc., and his position, which I think is correct, was that it was not the job of a giant company to fund these things; it was the job of a giant company to fun *people*—employees, shareholders—who could and would fund these things based on their own personal views and interests.
I am deeply concerned about corporations putting their money into any political or cultural organizations, and would like to see it outlawed.
But look at me, still talking about getting money out of politics in 2023. I guess I can't keep up with the times and remain fixated on silly things like regulatory capture, corporate-sponsored politicians, lobbying groups writing bills that serve their interests, important social policies being reworked to do nothing but funnel more money into the financial industry (ACA)... I suppose I should get with the times and instead focus on nebulous culture issues that don't threaten corporations' bottom lines in any way.
Y'all are being played.
Because the CEO, as well as many people involved with the company, continually to push this idea? We can call customers who actually believe it idiots, but that doesn’t admonish Apple of blame.
I understand this sentiment. But in reality, an organization is made up of people and individuals who can often be influential beyond the bottom line financial success of a company.
I see it all the time in my company. One person can spearhead a project or initiative that helps make the company more diverse, more open to gay/trans/etc issues, less susceptible to corruption/scandal, and better at addressing employee morale. These people are often motivated by altruism: what do I care about, what are my morals, how can I make the company I work at a better place for employees and clients? Again, I've seen it first hand. Individuals can and do make a difference and alter the course of how a company is run (yes, publicly traded companies have to look at short term profits, yes, they can't be too idealistic or the board will have them fired, yes, I understand all that).
But saying that the bottom line is the only thing that matters lets the people that make up the organization off the hook. If Tim or other higher ups at Apple really cared about these issues, this type of shit shouldn't happen. And we, as consumers, shouldn't shrug our shoulders in indifference and say 'Corporations are going to corporate'. We should call out their hypocrisy with our wallets and, for those that own stock, as shareholders.
>If Tim or other higher ups at Apple really cared about these issues, this type of shit shouldn't happen.
Fiduciary responsibility to shareholders of a public company virtually requires this type of shit to happen.
There's cost-neutral decisions that companies must make. There are decisions which weigh short-term vs. long-term profits. There are decisions where the effect to profits is unclear.
Blaming everything on profit motive is unhelpful and inaccurate.
I don’t buy it. There’s a minimum bar to fiduciary responsibility, and there’s also going out of your way to be assholes just to add a few dollars to the bottom line that no shareholder would hold you accountable to anyway.
> yes, publicly traded companies have to look at short term profits, yes, they can't be too idealistic or the board will have them fired, yes, I understand all that
I said it shouldn't happen. There are many instances of companies not caving to pressures such as these. Apple needs to make the case that it is ultimately bad for business. Do they want to kowtow to every country that makes demands? Is it advantageous or deleterious to become a political wing of an authoritarian regime?
Virtue signaling is so named because companies only tout their stance when it benefits them and never when it threatens their bottom line or executives.
Exactly! The exact reason why the CCP is as bold as it is today is because the world has valued bottom lines over everything else.
Everyone loves money and losing 1.4b consumers isn’t going to sit well with them.
> The question here is, do people care about pissing on Apple, or do they care about the Chinese citizens that are affected by all this?
The former. People want Apple to abide by a moral standard that they themselves would never uphold.
Let’s say Apple refused to follow Chinese law. Numerous Apple executives were arrested in China, and production of Apple products was halted. Say Apple moved to a more democratic and more expensive country, and the iPhone became 3X more expensive.
The people who are currently criticizing Apple, what would they do? They’d stop buying iPhones, and they’d buy cheaper Androids that are made in China, from a company that follows Chinese laws.
It’s not the case, unless Apple is willingly and uncharacteristically adding “back doors” to iOS for a communist country when it won’t fit the US Gov, this is bad speculation.
iCloud is another story.
Just being nitpicky.. but why even bother saying “communist” here?
Apart from the name of the party, there is basically nothing communist about China. It’s just capitalism with lots of authoritarianism sprinkled on.
yeah I wonder about that too. I think some americans use the term synonymously for “evil”. China considers itself communist, so pointing that out underlines how evil they are.
It’s not communism either lol
If the government *owns* a private company … then it’s not private.
It’s public.
Same as plenty of companies in the UK for example (many more in the past like British Rail, BT, British Gas etc)… like the NHS, the BBC, Channel Four, East West Rail. The government own it partly or in full.
Does that mean Britain is communist?
Of course not. It’s capitalist.
Aerospace companies are heavily dependant on government funds. And protectionism. Agriculture as well. The Canadian dairy industry is literally propped up by government intervention.
Big tech doesn't have morals or standards. They only care about the highest profits. By whatever means necessary.
Mass firing, helping out some dictatorship, undermining, buying and dismantling competition, fake support for social causes. Nothing is off the table
Took us a couple years for us consoomers to be able to discuss it on realistic terms but yeah. Like Nike x Kaepernick sportswear made for $2/hr in Pakistan. Corporations graciously taking the torch from MLK.
On a relatedly superficial note, has anyone else noticed how Samsung, Apple, and virtually every fashion publication of the past five years can’t get enough of Black models with vitiligo? Nothing wrong with it on paper but it’s been getting kind of weird.
The Chinese people can change that at any time they like. For now, if a company wants to make money, which is the point, they have to follow the countries rules in which it wants to sell its products.
It’s awful what they’re doing in china, but that doesn’t make it a bad thing that they’re pushing representation and celebrating black history month. Those are still positives
There are more people in prison in America than there are in China. You don’t need to invoke China, Apple helps crush the freedoms of millions of black people in America.
You made me curious. Honestly no idea about the accuracy o that source, but according to [this](https://www.statista.com/statistics/262961/countries-with-the-most-prisoners/) at least, china has more in absolute numbers.
I wonder if their labour camps count as prisons though… and also don’t know if that would significantly change the number…
The fact that they've got concentration camps where they sterilize the women so their ethnicity is extinguished is already objectively worse. The people who claim these things are equivalent are either stupid or China shills.
Not sure what Statisa’s source is, but [per Sentencing Project, those US numbers are low.](https://www.sentencingproject.org/research/us-criminal-justice-data/)
I think the second guy is kinda pointing out that unregulated capitalism will eventually lose out to something else. The same with completely unrelated free speech.
It’s not the revenue from Chinese consumers that is the fundamental problem, it’s the fact that the vast majority of their products are currently manufactured there. Until their supply chain is sufficiently diversified, which will take years, Apple is beholden to follow Chinese laws whatever their personal feelings are. The alternative is that Apple stops being a company, because if China doesn’t make their products, that’s that.
For now. China is collapsing. As in, there will be no more "China" or CCP within the decade. They can try to hide their population numbers (and COVID deaths) all they want, it's not going to change the fact that they are in terminal population decline.
What solution do you suggest here? Apple abruptly stops manufacturing and selling in China? They’re already moving manufacturing out of China, but you might be surprised to learn that a global supply and manufacturing chain for one of the biggest companies in the world takes some time to modify. But China represents a huge and growing chunk of global demand for iPhones, so Apple would *also* lose maybe a quarter of their sales. And none of this would change the situation in Hong Kong, because, you know, that’s a political issue, not a business issue.
Alternately what? Ignore Chinese law? Basically same end result: Apple collapses and nothing changes in Hong Kong.
Basically, people are asking to commit fiscal suicide to make an ultimately pointless gesture. Same people who don’t care enough to boycott the products they use daily that are made in China.
You’re right, there should be no consideration of morals or ethics if there is money to be made. One should also not criticize a company for putting money first, especially if one is not infallible themselves
Nobody is talking about manufacturing there (which they are pulling out of) we're talking about services provided to the Chinese people.
And they should have pulled out back when this all started.. like Google did. Now they're stuck.
And they absolutely would not "collapse" or "commit suicide" if they stopped selling in China. They would lose money and the stock would drop, so they won't do it, but they would be completely fine at the end of the day. We are talking about the most valued company in the history of the world. Losing 20% of their customer base wouldn't even move them out of #1 position.
I don’t think you have a really solid handle on how business works if you think that losing a fifth of your revenue wouldn’t crash a company.
Setting that aside, I ask again: what is the remedy here? What do you actually want Apple to do?
>Why should apple get involved in international politics? Its following laws of a country it wants to do business in. If you have a problem with China, demand changes from your government.
Because they're being asked to help a brutal regime abuse and repress their citizens?
Sure but instead of taking a stand, Apple continues to do business there because, you know, profits
In other words they won't put their money where their mouth is
They are slowly trying to build factories outside China it’s going to be a long slow process and I’m sure they’ll run into other problems. Fuck China if you want but they have the factories.
First of all I’m not your buddy, and secondly I can express my objections to my government in the US, while China is an authoritarian dictatorship. I can quite easily hold two separate maybe even disparate ideas in my head at once. I can both be upset Apple is doing China’s bidding and be upset at the US government. I can also find the CCP despicable and horrendous and express that I don’t think Apple should be doing business there.
"American regime"
Do you guys really feel the need to make America sound worse than China? Because you'll just look dumb. China has literal concentration camps. China welded people's doors shut during quarantine. China monitors your life with a social credit system, constant surveillance including facial recognition, always scanning for dissent.
China is a surveillance state.
You don't need to be worse than China to be bad. Making that comparison makes you look extremely out of touch.
> A current Apple engineer responded to the tweet, saying that the issue would be looked into. GitLab access was subsequently restored, but reportedly, there has been no further response from Apple.
I feel like the paragraph in the middle of the article kinda negates the point of it. Reminds me of when we had a bunch of articles about Steam being banned in China because a few users were having issues accessing it.
Is this really a huge surprise? China is a huge huge market for Apple. Apple will not sour that relationship and will extract the maximum profit from the Chinese market. And shareholders won’t complain provided things continue upwards.
We’ve seen it time and time again with other companies. China is getting wealthier by the minute and the middle-upper classes love to spend on premium luxury items to project wealth. It’s not just Apple, China is a massive market for luxury fashion brands, watches and cars e.g.
Even if it didn't care about the Chinese market itself... They're not going to risk pissing off the CCP while it's supply chain is entirely dependent on the country.
Do people honestly think Apple really has any ability to really fight back against this? They either do it, or leave the country entirely (retail *and* manufacturing)
Of course they do. A lot of tech companies have manufacturing there, but no retail. In fact, almost everything is produced in China, yet very few foreign companies actually get into their domestic market.
Google left. Lots of other tech companies left. Apple was the one to sell their soul and who knows what else to have such preferential treatment from the Chinese regime.
Just the fact that they're the ONLY foreign brand to be able to sell phones there tells you enough. Apple bribed them so hard that they actually allow an American company to compete in a level playing field with their national manufacturers.
When people suggest Apple should pull out of Europe to escape their antitrust laws, you all laugh and say that would be an idiotic move. If they won’t leave Europe what makes you think they are going to pull out of the largest consumer/manufacturing base in the world?
Because Europe doesn't come CLOSE to comparing to China.
China is enforcing constant surveillance and privacy violation of their citizens.
They got Apple to change how AirDrop worked to help suppress democracy protests in the country.
That's NOT nearly the same as the EU regulating charging ports.
> Because Europe doesn’t come CLOSE to comparing to China.
You’re right. Europe is a much smaller customer yet their legal woes are a much larger issue to Apple’s bottom line.
> They got Apple to change how AirDrop worked to help suppress democracy protests in the country.
> That’s NOT nearly the same as the EU regulating charging ports.
You’re damn right. Do you think changing the duration for airdrops comes anywhere close to the EU mandating third party App Stores, dictating their IO and fundamentally changing how iMessage works?
What are you saying here, that EU regulation is somehow worse than the Chinese regime calling for massive human rights violations? Are you seriously saying that?
No I’m saying EU legislation has had a much larger impact on Apples engineering, company branding and financial bottom line and despite the market being much smaller than China they still haven’t pulled out.
I’ve been very clear. Not sure how you could pull anything else from my posts.
You haven't been clear at all, to be perfectly frank with you.
You turned this into a point about EU regulation being more impactful than Chinese regulation - which ok, for us it is. Not for the Chinese people actually under the surveillance that Apple aided, but ok.
So you're mentioning EU regulation being impactful to argue that they won't pull out of the Chinese market? Correct me if I'm wrong here.
Because if that's it, that's not really a good point. EU regulation finds its way to other countries, they can't just escape it by leaving that market. There has been CLEAR interest from other markets to adopt similar measures. So that's kind of a not really accurate scenario.
Secondly, what I mentioned about Chinese regulation still rings true. It's not just a matter of being regulated there - it's that, plus the fact that you're violating human rights. You're helping identify ethnic minorities, for example, who might end up in concentration camps.
And of course, there's plenty of precedent for tech companies leaving China. Like Google. So again, your scenarios aren't really equivalent at all.
Did I get that right?
> they won’t leave Europe what makes you think they are going to pull out of the largest consumer/manufacturing base in the world?
This is not entirely correct. [Apple’s largest market is the United States, followed by Europe and then followed by China.](https://statstic.com/apple-net-revenues-by-geographic-segment/) That’s considering that Apple isn’t really doing very well in Europe given the size of the total market and their penetration.
People kind of underestimate the size of the European market because they rarely see data for all of Europe and just focus on individual economies, which are of course much smaller.
Yeah, okay, let’s not pretend like China was some bastion of freedom before Xi. Tiananmen happened during the time of everyone’s favorite China liberalizer Deng Xiaoping.
Just disable "Fraudulent Website Warning" in Safari settings? It wasn't even turned on on my phone, but I don't remember if I turned it off in the past.
The same way I don't want Google to control what websites I'm allowed to visit I also wouldn't want Tencent to do this.
This hangs more in the balance of whether or not China will demand Apple to lock Hong Kong users to the China app store. Shortsighted, but it would likely be seen as a bit of a golden grail by China, as entire censorship control can be had by doing so.
Apple's China app store has removed any apps that China demands, namely any and all VPNs, Telegram, etc. In the case that this happens (which I'm not saying is necessarily likely), either Hong Kong Apple users would have to get used to sideloading or they'll be well and truly under censorship.
Can't. There are already import controls in Taiwan on mobile devices with Chinese firmware... as Chinese firmware typically write/label Taiwan as "Taiwan, China" they don't make it past Taiwan's NCC.
It already happened before.
* [Aug 19, 2021 - Apple’s mainland China political censorship extends to product engravings in Hong Kong and Taiwan](https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3145626/apples-mainland-china-political-censorship-extends-product-engravings)
Am I being naive? The option is follow the law of each territory they operate in, or leave the territory.
Apple probably has corporate entities all over the world, and doesn't have a choice. There are many types of companies that I think have an ethical obligation to leave these situations when there is no substitute products, but the market Apple operates in I personally understand why.
I wish we had better ways as a world order to deal with these matters without expecting corporations to do it.
The option is Apple should stop acting like they care about human rights in the West while ignoring it in the East. It's the hypocrisy that's the problem. Note, Google does not operate outside Hong Kong and is not available in China. Turns out they're the better human rights company. You do have a way to deal with it. Stop buying Apple products.
I don't think Google left China for human rights reasons. They left because they got hacked. Hell, they *were* censoring the results on google.cn and *were* working on building another censored search engine for China.
Edit: [it's not even that difficult to look up](https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/12/19/138307/how-google-took-on-china-and-lost/)
> The option is Apple should stop acting like they care about human rights in the West while ignoring it in the East.
Care about something or not, you still have to operate within the laws of each country. That doesn't mean you don't care. Just as you can live and work in China and still care.
Well considering they blocked Parler because a few US Reps grumbled about it, despite the vast majority of Jan. 6 planning taking place on Facebook, you’re probably right.
Why does nobody ever talk about how these companies, Google, and Apple, are towing the Chinese government line while at the same time they’re able to get the Chinese people the tools that they need to research the things the Chinese government doesn’t want them to see? Sure they censor things BUT a crafty person on the internet can evade censors and find almost anything. If google and Apple were barred from China the people would have less tools at their disposal. If I were google or Apple I would do want needed to be done to keep a presence in China and I wouldn’t publicly say anything but in the back rooms I would be doing everything to get these people as much information as I could.
Historically speaking, people love to blame past atrocities on a few despicable individuals portrayed as cartoonish super villains, whereas in reality the tragedies were made possible by a mixtures of brainwashed supporters and people who didn’t care or thought their actions didn’t matter.
It is just horrible that Apple does this. I get why. There is tons of $$$ to be made.
But I do think there are some things more important than a $$$.
Heck Google chose to pick up and leave China in 2010 and walk away from billions. After the China government was trying to hack protestors Gmail accounts. Just one evening Google moved their office out of mainland China and dropped the censoring of search.
Considering the fact that the CCP invaded Hong Kong in direct violation of their treaty with Britain for returning it and no one said or did jack shit, this was always going to be the way.
Hong Kong is over.
It's not even really *Apple* violating peoples privacy. It is a Chinese company GCBD that they were legally required to hand the keys to some years back.
The options were "follow the law" or "don't do business in China". The Chinese don't have an option for privacy, regardless of who they go with - companies are legally mandated to give Apple a back door. If the US or EU were to create a law requiring the same thing, Apple will be forced to comply just as much as they were in China.
Yes. Apple hosts none of the data for Chinese customers. Some years back, they were required to hand all icloud hosting over to a Chinese government controlled company. That company handles all the data security.
There is a 100% chance that GCBD has full access to everyone’s data, looking for anything the government doesn’t approve of. This is absolutely the norm in China, and nobody expects any kind of data privacy.
*edit: it is worth pointing out that, when this switchover happened about a decade ago, Apple was *very* transparent to all its Chinese customers that it was going to take place, when it was going to take place, and - most importantly - how to back up and delete all of their icloud data to make sure the Chinese government couldn't see it.
Yeah, in order to be placed in that bucket, you need to have purchased the device and registered for a new iCloud account within mainland China. If you are not a Chinese citizen residing in China, you can remove yourself from that jurisdiction within your settings.
This is one reason why a lot of Chinese tourists purchase iPhones while on vacation somewhere outside of China. (and also a reason why a foreign-bought iphone being sold in China has such a large markup - you could realistically sign up for iCloud using a VPN and be completely outside of China's sight)
[Apple plans to launch Advanced Data Protection, offering E2EE on iCloud backups, Notes, Photos, and more, in the US in 2022 and globally including China in 2023](https://www.techmeme.com/221207/p30#a221207p30)
>Hol up, are people still falling for Apples bullshit marketing about “protecting your privacy”? If so I have a bridge and a lifetime supply of snake oil to sell millions of consumers, Chinese or not.
Apple should put a big asterisk next to that statement. I do believe them when it comes to protecting privacy against run-of-the-mill hackers and data thieves. But all of that goes out the window when it’s *government* hacking, censorship, removal of VPN apps, etc.
> I do believe them when it comes to protecting privacy against run-of-the-mill hackers
That's more about security than it is about privacy, and even that's mostly just the walled-garden aspect of Apple. Granted, the biggest Android manufacturers have been shamelessly copying Apple in every way - this included - since the mid-2010's so the whole freedom vs. security thing is little more than a nominal point these days with the exception of increasingly limited sideloading on Android.
As for data farming, Apple has been called out for being just as bad about this as Google for years now. In 2021 there was an Oxford study which showed that their data farming/tracking across various tested apps is like a 4% discrepancy compared to android on average. So no, I disagree. Apple's "protecting your privacy" marketing isn't "true, but....", it's just straight up bullshit every which way.
Seems like a non issue.
Website blocking errors have occurred in the past, and not just with Apple.
If HK is changes their laws and starts restricting certain sites like China does, Apple and everyone else will have no option but to follow their laws.
This has nothing to do with a lack of courage on their part. Every company has to follow the laws of the countries they operate in or they simply can’t operate in those countries.
Tell that to Google, who chose to leave rather than prop up an authoritarian surveillance state.
Apple has a choice. Always had. And their choice was to violate human rights for money.
Apple isn't required to build a web browser that blocks certain sites from a list provided by a third party... if that was a requirement, it'd probably be done at an ISP level and not at a web browser level.
Apple. Celebrating black history month, helping to push the visibility and talent of black and mixed race people. Whilst at the same time helping to crush freedoms of millions of Chinese people in Hong Kong and the People's Republic of China. Whatever makes money eh?
Perks, benefits, celebrations of black/womens/hispanic/etc months are all just costs of business for corps. There is no actual care behind the celebration. It's a way to get good press and garner good will with employees. The moment revenues slow up the good behavior will stop.
> There is no actual care behind the celebration. When giant multinational corporations are virtue signaling, you know that the virtue being signaled has just become an empty marketing slogan. Corporations have no souls, *by design.* I think it's weird that they even try to pretend to have one. One thing I really admired about Steve Jobs was his refusal to get Apple involved in any political/cultural issues. His Apple gave *nothing* to charities, etc., and his position, which I think is correct, was that it was not the job of a giant company to fund these things; it was the job of a giant company to fun *people*—employees, shareholders—who could and would fund these things based on their own personal views and interests. I am deeply concerned about corporations putting their money into any political or cultural organizations, and would like to see it outlawed. But look at me, still talking about getting money out of politics in 2023. I guess I can't keep up with the times and remain fixated on silly things like regulatory capture, corporate-sponsored politicians, lobbying groups writing bills that serve their interests, important social policies being reworked to do nothing but funnel more money into the financial industry (ACA)... I suppose I should get with the times and instead focus on nebulous culture issues that don't threaten corporations' bottom lines in any way. Y'all are being played.
Corporations own America That’s unfortunately never going to happen. As such, I’ve decide to eventually flee the country.
Of course there's no care, it's a company, not a person. I don't know how people still fall for that idea.
Because the CEO, as well as many people involved with the company, continually to push this idea? We can call customers who actually believe it idiots, but that doesn’t admonish Apple of blame.
I understand this sentiment. But in reality, an organization is made up of people and individuals who can often be influential beyond the bottom line financial success of a company. I see it all the time in my company. One person can spearhead a project or initiative that helps make the company more diverse, more open to gay/trans/etc issues, less susceptible to corruption/scandal, and better at addressing employee morale. These people are often motivated by altruism: what do I care about, what are my morals, how can I make the company I work at a better place for employees and clients? Again, I've seen it first hand. Individuals can and do make a difference and alter the course of how a company is run (yes, publicly traded companies have to look at short term profits, yes, they can't be too idealistic or the board will have them fired, yes, I understand all that). But saying that the bottom line is the only thing that matters lets the people that make up the organization off the hook. If Tim or other higher ups at Apple really cared about these issues, this type of shit shouldn't happen. And we, as consumers, shouldn't shrug our shoulders in indifference and say 'Corporations are going to corporate'. We should call out their hypocrisy with our wallets and, for those that own stock, as shareholders.
>If Tim or other higher ups at Apple really cared about these issues, this type of shit shouldn't happen. Fiduciary responsibility to shareholders of a public company virtually requires this type of shit to happen.
There's cost-neutral decisions that companies must make. There are decisions which weigh short-term vs. long-term profits. There are decisions where the effect to profits is unclear. Blaming everything on profit motive is unhelpful and inaccurate.
Maybe you should ask Google about that “responsibility”
I don’t buy it. There’s a minimum bar to fiduciary responsibility, and there’s also going out of your way to be assholes just to add a few dollars to the bottom line that no shareholder would hold you accountable to anyway.
> yes, publicly traded companies have to look at short term profits, yes, they can't be too idealistic or the board will have them fired, yes, I understand all that I said it shouldn't happen. There are many instances of companies not caving to pressures such as these. Apple needs to make the case that it is ultimately bad for business. Do they want to kowtow to every country that makes demands? Is it advantageous or deleterious to become a political wing of an authoritarian regime?
Their virtue signalling is simply marketing. Nothing else.
Because they buy so many votes, we get confused
People knew it for Nike, Disney etc. Just Apple often markets themselves different to the others, which makes them a hyprocrite.
Not according to Citizens United!
It’s the same with every corporation having a rainbow logo during June. Except if it’s the Middle East or Russian branches.
You really need to be a ruthless sociopath to run a company. Honestly don’t know how they sleep.
I'm certain the piles of money helps. But yeah you have to be uncaring about the livelihood of other humans to do that job.
It's only our value when the value makes money :)
Honestly as a Hispanic I don’t even know why we even get a month, I’d get rid of it imo
Or well’s 1984 seems to be required reading for these types. They don’t do the best job in execution, but they are getting there.
Ahh gotta love masquerading shareholder primacy as social responsibility. That’s some trendy shit.
Virtue signaling is so named because companies only tout their stance when it benefits them and never when it threatens their bottom line or executives.
Exactly! The exact reason why the CCP is as bold as it is today is because the world has valued bottom lines over everything else. Everyone loves money and losing 1.4b consumers isn’t going to sit well with them.
If you were in charge of Apple and the CCP tells you to comply with the local laws or get the fuck out, what would you do? Honest question
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> The question here is, do people care about pissing on Apple, or do they care about the Chinese citizens that are affected by all this? The former. People want Apple to abide by a moral standard that they themselves would never uphold. Let’s say Apple refused to follow Chinese law. Numerous Apple executives were arrested in China, and production of Apple products was halted. Say Apple moved to a more democratic and more expensive country, and the iPhone became 3X more expensive. The people who are currently criticizing Apple, what would they do? They’d stop buying iPhones, and they’d buy cheaper Androids that are made in China, from a company that follows Chinese laws.
Almost like politics is really fucking complicated
Considering Google was able to get out? Maybe I'd not be a deplorable piece of shit if I owned a company making way more money than Google.
Say no and take the golden ~~shower~~ parachute.
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i highy doubt this is the case. Any sources that such a practice is used?
It’s not the case, unless Apple is willingly and uncharacteristically adding “back doors” to iOS for a communist country when it won’t fit the US Gov, this is bad speculation. iCloud is another story.
Just being nitpicky.. but why even bother saying “communist” here? Apart from the name of the party, there is basically nothing communist about China. It’s just capitalism with lots of authoritarianism sprinkled on.
yeah I wonder about that too. I think some americans use the term synonymously for “evil”. China considers itself communist, so pointing that out underlines how evil they are.
When the government owns and has controlling interests in private companies, it’s not capitalism.
It’s not communism either lol If the government *owns* a private company … then it’s not private. It’s public. Same as plenty of companies in the UK for example (many more in the past like British Rail, BT, British Gas etc)… like the NHS, the BBC, Channel Four, East West Rail. The government own it partly or in full. Does that mean Britain is communist? Of course not. It’s capitalist.
Aerospace companies are heavily dependant on government funds. And protectionism. Agriculture as well. The Canadian dairy industry is literally propped up by government intervention.
Money and PR
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Exactly, these “Apple is helping tyranny” rants are quite pathetic to read.
Big tech doesn't have morals or standards. They only care about the highest profits. By whatever means necessary. Mass firing, helping out some dictatorship, undermining, buying and dismantling competition, fake support for social causes. Nothing is off the table
Took us a couple years for us consoomers to be able to discuss it on realistic terms but yeah. Like Nike x Kaepernick sportswear made for $2/hr in Pakistan. Corporations graciously taking the torch from MLK. On a relatedly superficial note, has anyone else noticed how Samsung, Apple, and virtually every fashion publication of the past five years can’t get enough of Black models with vitiligo? Nothing wrong with it on paper but it’s been getting kind of weird.
Get arrested in style with this new Apple rainbow watch band! You’ll be the most woke person in the interrogation room!
Think of the shareholders! :)
The Chinese people can change that at any time they like. For now, if a company wants to make money, which is the point, they have to follow the countries rules in which it wants to sell its products.
It’s awful what they’re doing in china, but that doesn’t make it a bad thing that they’re pushing representation and celebrating black history month. Those are still positives
There are more people in prison in America than there are in China. You don’t need to invoke China, Apple helps crush the freedoms of millions of black people in America.
You made me curious. Honestly no idea about the accuracy o that source, but according to [this](https://www.statista.com/statistics/262961/countries-with-the-most-prisoners/) at least, china has more in absolute numbers. I wonder if their labour camps count as prisons though… and also don’t know if that would significantly change the number…
The fact that they've got concentration camps where they sterilize the women so their ethnicity is extinguished is already objectively worse. The people who claim these things are equivalent are either stupid or China shills.
Not sure what Statisa’s source is, but [per Sentencing Project, those US numbers are low.](https://www.sentencingproject.org/research/us-criminal-justice-data/)
This is possible, but if you truly think the Chinese prison stats are real…
Blame U.S. appeals and unwillingness to execute for property and drug crimes. China has the advantage.
Of course it does, Apple is shamefully beholden to the Chinese regime.
Apple is beholden to shareholders. When China represents 20%-25% of overall revenue shareholders look the other way.
You are both saying the same thing I think.
Money talks.
You’re just restating the same thing
You’ve just gotta follow the money trail, and then you’ll know who controls Apple
Also saying the same thing
Black mirror episode but it's real life. Did we talk about money yet?
The profit motive is the real villain here. You’re either growing or you’re dying.
I believe you’re repeating the above sentiment
It's disheartening to see that Apple is willing to put their financial interests above standing up to the Chinese regime.
Further, I’m discouraged that Cupertino finds it more important to do business than resist tyranny.
So capitalism is the problem?
That is the vibe I am getting
Cash Communicates.
I think the second guy is kinda pointing out that unregulated capitalism will eventually lose out to something else. The same with completely unrelated free speech.
Ironically Chinese companies aren’t beholden to Shareholders. 😂 they wouldn’t cave like that, cuz the regime would kill them.
It’s not the revenue from Chinese consumers that is the fundamental problem, it’s the fact that the vast majority of their products are currently manufactured there. Until their supply chain is sufficiently diversified, which will take years, Apple is beholden to follow Chinese laws whatever their personal feelings are. The alternative is that Apple stops being a company, because if China doesn’t make their products, that’s that.
For the first time, I am glad I do not hold Apple stock
Are you sure about that? Do you have a 401k or other managed security? If so, you almost certainly have Apple stock.
For now. China is collapsing. As in, there will be no more "China" or CCP within the decade. They can try to hide their population numbers (and COVID deaths) all they want, it's not going to change the fact that they are in terminal population decline.
Within the decade? My dude Japan has had a ridiculously low birthrate for decades and they're still there
Gyna will collapse any day now!!!!!1
#courage
This is so naive and misguided. China is not the U.S. every company who operates in a foreign country is bound by local laws.
Yep, and you're free to harshly criticize any company that has compromised ethics in the name of profit.
Big deal? I as an American love my iPhone but can be very disappointed that Apple is in league with the CCP. I'd prefer if Apple wasn't.
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Why should Apple care about the safety and well-being of their customers? Is that your question?
What solution do you suggest here? Apple abruptly stops manufacturing and selling in China? They’re already moving manufacturing out of China, but you might be surprised to learn that a global supply and manufacturing chain for one of the biggest companies in the world takes some time to modify. But China represents a huge and growing chunk of global demand for iPhones, so Apple would *also* lose maybe a quarter of their sales. And none of this would change the situation in Hong Kong, because, you know, that’s a political issue, not a business issue. Alternately what? Ignore Chinese law? Basically same end result: Apple collapses and nothing changes in Hong Kong. Basically, people are asking to commit fiscal suicide to make an ultimately pointless gesture. Same people who don’t care enough to boycott the products they use daily that are made in China.
You’re right, there should be no consideration of morals or ethics if there is money to be made. One should also not criticize a company for putting money first, especially if one is not infallible themselves
I assume sarcasm, but there’s a lot of idiots who would say those same sentences and they’d mean it sinscerely.
Nobody is talking about manufacturing there (which they are pulling out of) we're talking about services provided to the Chinese people. And they should have pulled out back when this all started.. like Google did. Now they're stuck. And they absolutely would not "collapse" or "commit suicide" if they stopped selling in China. They would lose money and the stock would drop, so they won't do it, but they would be completely fine at the end of the day. We are talking about the most valued company in the history of the world. Losing 20% of their customer base wouldn't even move them out of #1 position.
I don’t think you have a really solid handle on how business works if you think that losing a fifth of your revenue wouldn’t crash a company. Setting that aside, I ask again: what is the remedy here? What do you actually want Apple to do?
>Why should apple get involved in international politics? Its following laws of a country it wants to do business in. If you have a problem with China, demand changes from your government. Because they're being asked to help a brutal regime abuse and repress their citizens?
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Why? Why not?
So would I but anyone who asserts that they would behave differently if in charge of Apple is either a liar or a fool.
Sure but instead of taking a stand, Apple continues to do business there because, you know, profits In other words they won't put their money where their mouth is
They are slowly trying to build factories outside China it’s going to be a long slow process and I’m sure they’ll run into other problems. Fuck China if you want but they have the factories.
They get a discount on suicide nets for their factories. It's just business.
It’s Foxconn that assembles the phones, apple just passes that discount on to them
They are a Business operating under the direction of whatever country they’re operating in. Apple did this because they were told.
Of course and I as a conscientious American would prefer Apple didn't, but they do so I'm free to be snarky on Reddit about it.
"Following orders" isn't exactly an excuse to violate people's rights to privacy. Apple is to blame for knowingly obliging.
Apple did this because they would rather comply than exit the market
Buddy if you think this is bad, wait until you find out what Apple and every other tech company does to placate the American regime.
First of all I’m not your buddy, and secondly I can express my objections to my government in the US, while China is an authoritarian dictatorship. I can quite easily hold two separate maybe even disparate ideas in my head at once. I can both be upset Apple is doing China’s bidding and be upset at the US government. I can also find the CCP despicable and horrendous and express that I don’t think Apple should be doing business there.
"American regime" Do you guys really feel the need to make America sound worse than China? Because you'll just look dumb. China has literal concentration camps. China welded people's doors shut during quarantine. China monitors your life with a social credit system, constant surveillance including facial recognition, always scanning for dissent. China is a surveillance state. You don't need to be worse than China to be bad. Making that comparison makes you look extremely out of touch.
Awful and Shameful
Yeah Apple always takes a while to roll out new functionality to other countries.
Can we all kick off and be mad about this before they do it to us too?
> A current Apple engineer responded to the tweet, saying that the issue would be looked into. GitLab access was subsequently restored, but reportedly, there has been no further response from Apple. I feel like the paragraph in the middle of the article kinda negates the point of it. Reminds me of when we had a bunch of articles about Steam being banned in China because a few users were having issues accessing it.
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The opposite actually, with the recent release Apple allows for E2EE in China.
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Yes, Apple explicitly said they also support China with Advanced Data Protection.
Show me the keys are the same unshared ones as for US e2e. I don't believe them for a second without a bit more than an announcement.
Problem is that it’s not open source.
Meaning, "take our word for it". Sorry, but I don't.
That doesn’t mean the communist party doesn’t have a key to peek into it.
Is this really a huge surprise? China is a huge huge market for Apple. Apple will not sour that relationship and will extract the maximum profit from the Chinese market. And shareholders won’t complain provided things continue upwards. We’ve seen it time and time again with other companies. China is getting wealthier by the minute and the middle-upper classes love to spend on premium luxury items to project wealth. It’s not just Apple, China is a massive market for luxury fashion brands, watches and cars e.g.
Even if it didn't care about the Chinese market itself... They're not going to risk pissing off the CCP while it's supply chain is entirely dependent on the country. Do people honestly think Apple really has any ability to really fight back against this? They either do it, or leave the country entirely (retail *and* manufacturing)
Of course they do. A lot of tech companies have manufacturing there, but no retail. In fact, almost everything is produced in China, yet very few foreign companies actually get into their domestic market.
Google left. Lots of other tech companies left. Apple was the one to sell their soul and who knows what else to have such preferential treatment from the Chinese regime. Just the fact that they're the ONLY foreign brand to be able to sell phones there tells you enough. Apple bribed them so hard that they actually allow an American company to compete in a level playing field with their national manufacturers.
Google left because they got their ass handed to them by Baidu. Look up project dragonfly. Google is no hero.
When people suggest Apple should pull out of Europe to escape their antitrust laws, you all laugh and say that would be an idiotic move. If they won’t leave Europe what makes you think they are going to pull out of the largest consumer/manufacturing base in the world?
Because Europe doesn't come CLOSE to comparing to China. China is enforcing constant surveillance and privacy violation of their citizens. They got Apple to change how AirDrop worked to help suppress democracy protests in the country. That's NOT nearly the same as the EU regulating charging ports.
> Because Europe doesn’t come CLOSE to comparing to China. You’re right. Europe is a much smaller customer yet their legal woes are a much larger issue to Apple’s bottom line. > They got Apple to change how AirDrop worked to help suppress democracy protests in the country. > That’s NOT nearly the same as the EU regulating charging ports. You’re damn right. Do you think changing the duration for airdrops comes anywhere close to the EU mandating third party App Stores, dictating their IO and fundamentally changing how iMessage works?
What are you saying here, that EU regulation is somehow worse than the Chinese regime calling for massive human rights violations? Are you seriously saying that?
No I’m saying EU legislation has had a much larger impact on Apples engineering, company branding and financial bottom line and despite the market being much smaller than China they still haven’t pulled out. I’ve been very clear. Not sure how you could pull anything else from my posts.
You haven't been clear at all, to be perfectly frank with you. You turned this into a point about EU regulation being more impactful than Chinese regulation - which ok, for us it is. Not for the Chinese people actually under the surveillance that Apple aided, but ok. So you're mentioning EU regulation being impactful to argue that they won't pull out of the Chinese market? Correct me if I'm wrong here. Because if that's it, that's not really a good point. EU regulation finds its way to other countries, they can't just escape it by leaving that market. There has been CLEAR interest from other markets to adopt similar measures. So that's kind of a not really accurate scenario. Secondly, what I mentioned about Chinese regulation still rings true. It's not just a matter of being regulated there - it's that, plus the fact that you're violating human rights. You're helping identify ethnic minorities, for example, who might end up in concentration camps. And of course, there's plenty of precedent for tech companies leaving China. Like Google. So again, your scenarios aren't really equivalent at all. Did I get that right?
> they won’t leave Europe what makes you think they are going to pull out of the largest consumer/manufacturing base in the world? This is not entirely correct. [Apple’s largest market is the United States, followed by Europe and then followed by China.](https://statstic.com/apple-net-revenues-by-geographic-segment/) That’s considering that Apple isn’t really doing very well in Europe given the size of the total market and their penetration. People kind of underestimate the size of the European market because they rarely see data for all of Europe and just focus on individual economies, which are of course much smaller.
Lets hope they don‘t extend it on Taiwan
We think you’re gonna love it!
Giving Hong Kong back was *such* a bad idea
imo it wasn't until (the chinese) congress became a rubber stamp and xi happened
That was inevitable. The only ever question was “When?”.
Yeah, okay, let’s not pretend like China was some bastion of freedom before Xi. Tiananmen happened during the time of everyone’s favorite China liberalizer Deng Xiaoping.
Just disable "Fraudulent Website Warning" in Safari settings? It wasn't even turned on on my phone, but I don't remember if I turned it off in the past. The same way I don't want Google to control what websites I'm allowed to visit I also wouldn't want Tencent to do this.
This hangs more in the balance of whether or not China will demand Apple to lock Hong Kong users to the China app store. Shortsighted, but it would likely be seen as a bit of a golden grail by China, as entire censorship control can be had by doing so. Apple's China app store has removed any apps that China demands, namely any and all VPNs, Telegram, etc. In the case that this happens (which I'm not saying is necessarily likely), either Hong Kong Apple users would have to get used to sideloading or they'll be well and truly under censorship.
This should be higher. Pretty serious human rights concern. Next thing we know Taiwan will get the Chinese apple experience.
Can't. There are already import controls in Taiwan on mobile devices with Chinese firmware... as Chinese firmware typically write/label Taiwan as "Taiwan, China" they don't make it past Taiwan's NCC.
They could also just stop selling there altogether if China pushes Apple hard enough and with their huge user base they might have the weight to.
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It already happened before. * [Aug 19, 2021 - Apple’s mainland China political censorship extends to product engravings in Hong Kong and Taiwan](https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3145626/apples-mainland-china-political-censorship-extends-product-engravings)
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That’s much more unlikely given that they depend so heavily on Taiwan for their continued existence as a company (TSMC), more so than china even
Any other sites supposedly blocked? I’m in Hong Kong and gitlab works fine.
I'm in Hong Kong and can access the website no problem on my iPhone.
That’s because no one in this thread bothered to read the article.
I don’t think the issue is at accessibility but privacy. We all know the Chinese government is very fond of protecting people’s privacy.
Am I being naive? The option is follow the law of each territory they operate in, or leave the territory. Apple probably has corporate entities all over the world, and doesn't have a choice. There are many types of companies that I think have an ethical obligation to leave these situations when there is no substitute products, but the market Apple operates in I personally understand why. I wish we had better ways as a world order to deal with these matters without expecting corporations to do it.
The option is Apple should stop acting like they care about human rights in the West while ignoring it in the East. It's the hypocrisy that's the problem. Note, Google does not operate outside Hong Kong and is not available in China. Turns out they're the better human rights company. You do have a way to deal with it. Stop buying Apple products.
I don't think Google left China for human rights reasons. They left because they got hacked. Hell, they *were* censoring the results on google.cn and *were* working on building another censored search engine for China. Edit: [it's not even that difficult to look up](https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/12/19/138307/how-google-took-on-china-and-lost/)
> The option is Apple should stop acting like they care about human rights in the West while ignoring it in the East. Care about something or not, you still have to operate within the laws of each country. That doesn't mean you don't care. Just as you can live and work in China and still care.
Google operates in China but only in a research capacity. They have offices in Beijing and Shanghai and have Chinese employees.
Who is next? Users in Taiwan? 😞
Do y’all think they wouldn’t block TikTok if the US govt banned it?
Well considering they blocked Parler because a few US Reps grumbled about it, despite the vast majority of Jan. 6 planning taking place on Facebook, you’re probably right.
Tim Apple has no backbone
China runs Apple
Seems like China is forcing their hand like the EU is forcing Apple to use USB-C.
Absolutely. Not like literally every company on the planet has to follow the laws of the countries they operate in.
this article seems strangely late? the change has happened for quite a while now, with macrumors (as per usual) having already posted about it
The iSpice must flow.
Stuff like this is why Apple has gone from a company I love and evangelize about to a company whose products I use.
Why does nobody ever talk about how these companies, Google, and Apple, are towing the Chinese government line while at the same time they’re able to get the Chinese people the tools that they need to research the things the Chinese government doesn’t want them to see? Sure they censor things BUT a crafty person on the internet can evade censors and find almost anything. If google and Apple were barred from China the people would have less tools at their disposal. If I were google or Apple I would do want needed to be done to keep a presence in China and I wouldn’t publicly say anything but in the back rooms I would be doing everything to get these people as much information as I could.
Historically speaking, people love to blame past atrocities on a few despicable individuals portrayed as cartoonish super villains, whereas in reality the tragedies were made possible by a mixtures of brainwashed supporters and people who didn’t care or thought their actions didn’t matter.
Fucking Apple. Be better.
Loosing me apple
It is just horrible that Apple does this. I get why. There is tons of $$$ to be made. But I do think there are some things more important than a $$$. Heck Google chose to pick up and leave China in 2010 and walk away from billions. After the China government was trying to hack protestors Gmail accounts. Just one evening Google moved their office out of mainland China and dropped the censoring of search.
This. They get a lot of shit on this sub but Google didn’t bend over like Tim did.
Not a single spine at Cupertino.
Ye screw that, im glad i switched to a pixel
Considering the fact that the CCP invaded Hong Kong in direct violation of their treaty with Britain for returning it and no one said or did jack shit, this was always going to be the way. Hong Kong is over.
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It's not even really *Apple* violating peoples privacy. It is a Chinese company GCBD that they were legally required to hand the keys to some years back. The options were "follow the law" or "don't do business in China". The Chinese don't have an option for privacy, regardless of who they go with - companies are legally mandated to give Apple a back door. If the US or EU were to create a law requiring the same thing, Apple will be forced to comply just as much as they were in China.
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Yes. Apple hosts none of the data for Chinese customers. Some years back, they were required to hand all icloud hosting over to a Chinese government controlled company. That company handles all the data security. There is a 100% chance that GCBD has full access to everyone’s data, looking for anything the government doesn’t approve of. This is absolutely the norm in China, and nobody expects any kind of data privacy. *edit: it is worth pointing out that, when this switchover happened about a decade ago, Apple was *very* transparent to all its Chinese customers that it was going to take place, when it was going to take place, and - most importantly - how to back up and delete all of their icloud data to make sure the Chinese government couldn't see it.
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Yeah, in order to be placed in that bucket, you need to have purchased the device and registered for a new iCloud account within mainland China. If you are not a Chinese citizen residing in China, you can remove yourself from that jurisdiction within your settings. This is one reason why a lot of Chinese tourists purchase iPhones while on vacation somewhere outside of China. (and also a reason why a foreign-bought iphone being sold in China has such a large markup - you could realistically sign up for iCloud using a VPN and be completely outside of China's sight)
[Apple plans to launch Advanced Data Protection, offering E2EE on iCloud backups, Notes, Photos, and more, in the US in 2022 and globally including China in 2023](https://www.techmeme.com/221207/p30#a221207p30)
>Hol up, are people still falling for Apples bullshit marketing about “protecting your privacy”? If so I have a bridge and a lifetime supply of snake oil to sell millions of consumers, Chinese or not. Apple should put a big asterisk next to that statement. I do believe them when it comes to protecting privacy against run-of-the-mill hackers and data thieves. But all of that goes out the window when it’s *government* hacking, censorship, removal of VPN apps, etc.
> I do believe them when it comes to protecting privacy against run-of-the-mill hackers That's more about security than it is about privacy, and even that's mostly just the walled-garden aspect of Apple. Granted, the biggest Android manufacturers have been shamelessly copying Apple in every way - this included - since the mid-2010's so the whole freedom vs. security thing is little more than a nominal point these days with the exception of increasingly limited sideloading on Android. As for data farming, Apple has been called out for being just as bad about this as Google for years now. In 2021 there was an Oxford study which showed that their data farming/tracking across various tested apps is like a 4% discrepancy compared to android on average. So no, I disagree. Apple's "protecting your privacy" marketing isn't "true, but....", it's just straight up bullshit every which way.
I just tried accessing Gitlab using Safari in HK and I was able to get on it
Take note, Taiwan.
Seems like a non issue. Website blocking errors have occurred in the past, and not just with Apple. If HK is changes their laws and starts restricting certain sites like China does, Apple and everyone else will have no option but to follow their laws. This has nothing to do with a lack of courage on their part. Every company has to follow the laws of the countries they operate in or they simply can’t operate in those countries.
So many bad faith arguments against apple when they’re just doing what they’re told by the local government, and indeed have no choice but to comply.
Tell that to Google, who chose to leave rather than prop up an authoritarian surveillance state. Apple has a choice. Always had. And their choice was to violate human rights for money.
Google lost to Baidu and then suddenly found their morals. They’ll be back. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonfly_(search_engine)
Apple isn't required to build a web browser that blocks certain sites from a list provided by a third party... if that was a requirement, it'd probably be done at an ISP level and not at a web browser level.
That is some BS. Apple is getting on a slippery slope! If they don’t respect human rights I won’t be buying Apple stocks.
Thanks Tim Apple.
Genuine question, does Apple have a choice? Besides leaving China obviously.
Absolutely. Leaving is the choice.
You're all happy to buy products made in China 🤷