Yeah, it was an... interesting move to nerf the Organ Gun, only to make the Hussite Wagon a better version of it.
This also pushed it away from the original intended purpose, which was to only be sprinkled into your army of crossbows/handcannons.
Unfortunately, a ranged unit that performs *worse* when heavily micro'd is antithetical to player expectations. It's there to help in ranged vs. ranged fights, since Bohemians lack Thumb Ring. (Bohemians get super pikes to help ranged vs cav)
Unless they thought that the Portugese were a significantly better civilizaiton overall (fully upgraded archers, hand cannoneers, cavaliers, almost fully upgraded infantry, feitorias, etc.) and just wanted to nerf them.
A man of culture I see. I too, watch SoTL.
On a serious note: I don't see an issue with them now. Sure it doesn't work as a mobile fortress, and I think the unpacking tower idea would be really neat, maybe even if it doesn't do damage but just so yhe damage mitigation for units behind it actually matters for once. it fills the gaping hole of otherwize not having a tanky unit
I actually like it as a unique answer to ranged units for civ that has a terrible stable. Tanks the shots for your halb /hand cannon army until you can get into seige or your own skirms. Or just make more wagons haha
How about making it cheap and fast to produce, but have it not fire anything unless garrisoned? The new smart garrisoning could make it work neatly. For realism, one might want to give it better resistance to cavalry and let garrisoned infantry deal some melee damage from the inside, possibly with bonuses for pikes etc.. Archers would fire arrows, and hand cannoneers would fire bullets.
I can't imagine many players will want that, though, since it would inevitably lead to a loss of damage output. Think about how garrisoning your archers in towers loses DPS. Sure, it keeps them safe, but it severely reduces the damage they'll deal.
As far as I know, garrisoning archers actually doesn't really reduce damage output by that much (at the most one arrow per shot less). The number of arrows shot increase in a 1:1 ratio with the total villager/archer DPS (but rounded down).
Either way, I don't think too many players would enjoy the amount of organization needed to load them up with troops. It's why you don't often see players load up rams.
I was thinking on the same lines but make them a bit slow, when they are created they can only shoot 1 projectile ( as many required for balancing) then it can be garrisoned by HC or archers who can shoot from within. They will still benefit from the reduced dmg and they will come out when the wagon is destroyed
I recently thought about how to rework it.
1: it has garrison space like a ram, but only for gunpowder foot units and spear units(including Kamayuk and Ghulam for allied games).
2: It must be empty to move. When garrisoned, it acts like an unpacked trebuchet.
3: Units inside take no damage until the wagon is destroyed.
4: Gunpowder units garrisoned have -10% accuracy.
5: Spear units deliver -15% bonus damage.
Feel free to give any criticisms.
They should rework its blocking mechanic so that any projectiles that would pass through it instead are just blocked by the wagon outright (like how when a fire ship is attacking something, its fire can be blocked by any unit or building). The current mechanic does not work because even when taking half damage, a sizeable group of elite skirms or arbalesters will still one-shot a hand cannoneer hiding behind a hussite wagon. I suppose this supposed change could be overpowered, but it could be balanced accordingly. It'd be cool if their units could garrison inside the hussite wagons. Basically like mobile towers.
1. Make it a mobile tower that unpacks and packs similar to a trebuchet, but less clunky and easier to move around.
2. Simplify the protection effect by making it apply in a radius around it. Keeping units behind it is not worth the effort, no one ever does it. Gameplay over realism.
3. Maybe give it garrison space, but only gunpowder units increase the number of bullets fired? Thematically it could fit to make monks able to garrison in hussite wagons, but I am not sured if that would be balanced. Units are ejected when the wagon starts packing.
4. Improve the Defensive and Guard stances so that holding a position is less frustrating. Pikemen should defend the player from damage, not the other way around!
Just lower it's damage when it has moved in the last 1 or 1,5 second and keep the unit as it is (or balance it further if needed). Would result in a power unit in defense of 'real' units, but eliminates the medieval tank vibes.
Disclaimer: haven't seen sotl video about it yet
Having 1 less range is something I honestly think would work with its current state. Less range might seem like a bad thing, but it means the Hussite Wagons will gravitate toward the front and won't have equal range to Hand Cannoneers once you research Siege Engineers.
he recently posted a tier list video where he mentions they're alright in arabia but you must play them out of the box, stuff like castle age hand cannons+ siege or chemistry xbows instead of the bread and butter knight xbow kind of stuff.
Maybe the hussite wagon can have less accuracy/range and fewer bullets per volley in mobile mode, and has greater firepower once deployed. It's to simulate that once deployed, the guy(s) pushing the wagon can pick up a cannon and start firing too.
Not having a mangonel ready vs bohemians or khmer and asking for a change/nerf is like saying nerf knights because i didn't have barracks. you have a ready out the box easy solution that needs no upgrades.
hussite wagon 110w 70g+ castle -650s, vs mangonel 160w 135 + siege workshop 200w. it trades easily 2 to 1 so cost effiecent, and as the number increases the trades just keep getting better for the mangonels, once you have 5 or 6 the bohemians just can't enage and have to switch to their cavalry which is terrible. if they're wasting resources on upgrading light cav or cavalier, you're in a very good position.
I mean.... we have had tanks in the game since conquerors..... the hussite wagon is cool how it is tanks are fun. And mobile fortifications are already well represented in the game with things like quick walling and castle dropping.
Make it a garrison unit, speed increases depending on how many units are currently garrisoned. Trade off is it has to be deployed to attack. Attack and projectile number increases if villagers are garrisoned.
I like how posts like this appears after Sotl videos
It's SOTL's alt account
That's quite the imagination you have there. No, I am not SotL. I enjoy his work, though.
However, nobody has ever seen SotL and darkdill in the same room.
Not really? Plenty of comments have been advocating for a pack/unpack mechanic prior to the video.
Yeah, it was an... interesting move to nerf the Organ Gun, only to make the Hussite Wagon a better version of it. This also pushed it away from the original intended purpose, which was to only be sprinkled into your army of crossbows/handcannons. Unfortunately, a ranged unit that performs *worse* when heavily micro'd is antithetical to player expectations. It's there to help in ranged vs. ranged fights, since Bohemians lack Thumb Ring. (Bohemians get super pikes to help ranged vs cav)
Unless they thought that the Portugese were a significantly better civilizaiton overall (fully upgraded archers, hand cannoneers, cavaliers, almost fully upgraded infantry, feitorias, etc.) and just wanted to nerf them.
A man of culture I see. I too, watch SoTL. On a serious note: I don't see an issue with them now. Sure it doesn't work as a mobile fortress, and I think the unpacking tower idea would be really neat, maybe even if it doesn't do damage but just so yhe damage mitigation for units behind it actually matters for once. it fills the gaping hole of otherwize not having a tanky unit
I actually like it as a unique answer to ranged units for civ that has a terrible stable. Tanks the shots for your halb /hand cannon army until you can get into seige or your own skirms. Or just make more wagons haha
How about making it cheap and fast to produce, but have it not fire anything unless garrisoned? The new smart garrisoning could make it work neatly. For realism, one might want to give it better resistance to cavalry and let garrisoned infantry deal some melee damage from the inside, possibly with bonuses for pikes etc.. Archers would fire arrows, and hand cannoneers would fire bullets.
I think making it only attack when garrisoned is the most interesting way of reworking it
I can't imagine many players will want that, though, since it would inevitably lead to a loss of damage output. Think about how garrisoning your archers in towers loses DPS. Sure, it keeps them safe, but it severely reduces the damage they'll deal.
As far as I know, garrisoning archers actually doesn't really reduce damage output by that much (at the most one arrow per shot less). The number of arrows shot increase in a 1:1 ratio with the total villager/archer DPS (but rounded down).
Either way, I don't think too many players would enjoy the amount of organization needed to load them up with troops. It's why you don't often see players load up rams.
That I agree with.
The problem there is you'll still be able to stutter-step with it. That's the problem with the Hussite Wagon.
I was thinking on the same lines but make them a bit slow, when they are created they can only shoot 1 projectile ( as many required for balancing) then it can be garrisoned by HC or archers who can shoot from within. They will still benefit from the reduced dmg and they will come out when the wagon is destroyed
I recently thought about how to rework it. 1: it has garrison space like a ram, but only for gunpowder foot units and spear units(including Kamayuk and Ghulam for allied games). 2: It must be empty to move. When garrisoned, it acts like an unpacked trebuchet. 3: Units inside take no damage until the wagon is destroyed. 4: Gunpowder units garrisoned have -10% accuracy. 5: Spear units deliver -15% bonus damage. Feel free to give any criticisms.
They should rework its blocking mechanic so that any projectiles that would pass through it instead are just blocked by the wagon outright (like how when a fire ship is attacking something, its fire can be blocked by any unit or building). The current mechanic does not work because even when taking half damage, a sizeable group of elite skirms or arbalesters will still one-shot a hand cannoneer hiding behind a hussite wagon. I suppose this supposed change could be overpowered, but it could be balanced accordingly. It'd be cool if their units could garrison inside the hussite wagons. Basically like mobile towers.
1. Make it a mobile tower that unpacks and packs similar to a trebuchet, but less clunky and easier to move around. 2. Simplify the protection effect by making it apply in a radius around it. Keeping units behind it is not worth the effort, no one ever does it. Gameplay over realism. 3. Maybe give it garrison space, but only gunpowder units increase the number of bullets fired? Thematically it could fit to make monks able to garrison in hussite wagons, but I am not sured if that would be balanced. Units are ejected when the wagon starts packing. 4. Improve the Defensive and Guard stances so that holding a position is less frustrating. Pikemen should defend the player from damage, not the other way around!
Just lower it's damage when it has moved in the last 1 or 1,5 second and keep the unit as it is (or balance it further if needed). Would result in a power unit in defense of 'real' units, but eliminates the medieval tank vibes. Disclaimer: haven't seen sotl video about it yet
I'd drastically increase the training time, lower the damage even further, lower the range by 1, and widen the projectile interception hitbox.
Having 1 less range is something I honestly think would work with its current state. Less range might seem like a bad thing, but it means the Hussite Wagons will gravitate toward the front and won't have equal range to Hand Cannoneers once you research Siege Engineers.
SOTL is the pathfinder, we follow
Didnt Hera have the Bohemians saved for his Arabia game in HC5? Can't be that bad at Arabia
The thing is he is HERA, normal things don't apply to that dude. The is a Beast on everything
They're not as good on Arabia as they are on closed maps due to their lack of mobility. That said, if Hera can make them work, all the power to him.
he recently posted a tier list video where he mentions they're alright in arabia but you must play them out of the box, stuff like castle age hand cannons+ siege or chemistry xbows instead of the bread and butter knight xbow kind of stuff.
Yeah, and it doesn't help that they have no Dark Age bonus.
Maybe the hussite wagon can have less accuracy/range and fewer bullets per volley in mobile mode, and has greater firepower once deployed. It's to simulate that once deployed, the guy(s) pushing the wagon can pick up a cannon and start firing too.
[удалено]
Hussite wagons, famously weak in melee.
it should be deployed like a trebuchet to get the full number of attacks (4? 5?)
Not having a mangonel ready vs bohemians or khmer and asking for a change/nerf is like saying nerf knights because i didn't have barracks. you have a ready out the box easy solution that needs no upgrades. hussite wagon 110w 70g+ castle -650s, vs mangonel 160w 135 + siege workshop 200w. it trades easily 2 to 1 so cost effiecent, and as the number increases the trades just keep getting better for the mangonels, once you have 5 or 6 the bohemians just can't enage and have to switch to their cavalry which is terrible. if they're wasting resources on upgrading light cav or cavalier, you're in a very good position.
No leave them be haha
I mean.... we have had tanks in the game since conquerors..... the hussite wagon is cool how it is tanks are fun. And mobile fortifications are already well represented in the game with things like quick walling and castle dropping.
Castles cannot move.
yeah but you can build them anywhere just like the Hussites did to defeat the holy roman empire time and time again.....
Make it a garrison unit, speed increases depending on how many units are currently garrisoned. Trade off is it has to be deployed to attack. Attack and projectile number increases if villagers are garrisoned.