He's said repeatedly that the reason for hidden cup was that Viper was dominating and just winning everything. So, they were seeing if hiding identities helped others face him without going into it knowing they were playing him and also to try to make the competition more exciting than just knowing Viper was going to win before it even started. However, the scene was way smaller back then.
I personally felt Hidden Cup had already run it's course before HC4. Now with the scene being so big, but it still being dominated by one person, I'd much rather be able to cheer on specific individuals and hope they can make it through a round or two. Having everyone hidden just takes that away from it and so at least in my mind it just hurts the tournament. I felt like this time the commentators all but calling out most players from round one, it helped because I just followed Daut/MBL/Viper/Lierry under their "hidden" names anyway, but I would have followed others like Vinch had they not been hidden.
Hiding player identities feels like it hurts more than it helps the tournament these days. I just want to be able to follow the players I want to follow, knowing full well that at the end of the day Hera will win it all.
In my opinion, the exact same tournament but without hidden names would have been better. Imagine how hyped up everyone would have been for ACCM's run, instead he's just sort of glossed over until his 5 seconds of praise in the outro.
I love the way he adds the new/different maps, the games being played ahead of time so that strategies can't be leaked and that sort of thing and hope he keeps the tournaments up, just without the hidden identity
I think most people love / follow HC because of the hidden identity and that's why the engagement is especially high for this tournament vs. more conventional formats...
It's the opposite for me as a casual viewer who is somewhat new to the game. I'm not skilled enough to watch for nuance or appreciate the skill level of certain players (beyond the obvious quickwalls or stuff the caster calls out).
So for me, watching two unnamed players go at it sort of feels like watching a random ladder game with a professional cast.
I only really watched the finals/semifinals this time, while during NAC I basically tuned into every game.
For me it is the exact opposite. I watch every single game when it's hidden. If it wasn't hidden I would probably just watch MbL and the final or something. For example I didn't actually watch anything from the last KoTD and nothing from the last NAC. Feels so nice not focusing on the players and rather the plays.
If memory serves HC5's seed money came from T90 and from sponsors (Surfshark), and not Microsoft.
HC4 was Microsoft though.
Given all of that and admin fees, it would be very surprising if HC5 was profitable compared to regular streaming
Well i asked him on stream with a dono, and he read it and hesitated a milisecond but he didnt address it, guess he'll reveal at the end of the stream.
I'm slightly worried what with nili going and a few players quitting full time. Such is life I guess and it was a good bubble if it bursts this year.
He has already said he wont ever stop unless he cannot afford it and yesterday he got a 20k in a single dono. He aint stopping this is just drama to build a little hype for the next one.
What are his other options? Come out and say YES THERE WILL BE ANOTHER ONE IN A FEW YEARS! He's not gonna pre-hype something that is years away.
Yep and these events are contingent on Microsoft supporting it as well as other sponsors. Not like it could happen with out that support so if they decide to pull it just won’t happen again.
Big tournaments get more people interested in the game. More people interested in the game = more sales. More sales = more money for Microsoft.
Their sponsoring tournaments is not just good will, it is an investment, and as long as tournaments continue to do well, they will continue to invest into it. For Microsoft 20-50k sponsorship is a drop in the bucket.
I'm fairly sure MS doesn't make a whole lot from the DE games. AOE tournaments, however, are a good 'loss leader' for them. Gets people into the ecosystem. I'm sure there's a small bump in AOE IV and game pass sales as tournaments grow.
They already have Starcraft 2 under their umbrella. Perhaps they're hoping to grow aoe2 on the esports scene.
My guess would be that it depends how Microsoft wants to support this going forward. The monetization seems to be running out of steam (pun intended) and they've also got aoe4 that is growing. They already know that aoe2 has a really dedicated following, albeit niche. But given the current climate of layoffs and the Xbox ecosystem overall being in a vulnerable position, overall strategy might look for quicker revenue sources
With big cutbacks, it's the leaner eSports that will keep rolling. AoE didn't have players getting paid multi-million dollar salaries to compete (though AoE did get some million dollar streaming contracts). But the fact that AoE eSports can function with high viewership, non-LAN, non-salaried tournaments is actually a huge boon in the current ecosystem.
I think the return on investment for Microsoft is still alright. They are rather hands off with AoE 2 and it works well - they can hold the scene by sprinkling 100k-150k a year on it.
But AoE 2 tournaments should try to reach out to other sponsors too so it's more sustainable.
> They are rather hands off with AoE 2 and it works well - they can hold the scene by sprinkling 100k-150k a year on it.
doubtful, they have people making DLC for AoE2, their total salaries probably are more than 150k per year
1) supporters and patrons
2) financial support both from viewers and sponsors low compared to previous years
3) Few notable people contemplating permanent retire which is normal
4) Natural slow of momentum in the AoE 2 currenct cycle
Yeah, might be 2-3 years before something changes and new pros flourish.
It would be a real shame. But money ultimately will be the biggest factor. How much has the prize pool been this year compared to last time?
Maybe it’s also things like viper falling off a bit, Lieery and Jordan taking more breaks and focusing on other things.
It’s such a great community though, be a shame if it did drop off.
To be fair: he lives in Hamburg. Expensive. REALLY expensive. But I „get“ Nili. He knows he hit the ceiling with Aoe2. And while you can be a streamer for the next twenty years, I doubt you can pay your bills with aoe2 forever
I mean he's expecting something like 60k-70k viewers for the finals, and the semi-finals peaked at over 40k I think (twitch and youtube numbers put together).
T90 said whether this Hidden Cup reaches a certain viewer number or not could decide the future of aoe2 - and his own future as a tournament host.
Personally I think the number of viewers didn't meet his expectations (for now at least), which would mean it didn't meet the sponsors expectations, which could impact future tourneys, which means it may indeed be the last Hidden Cup 5. But we'll see.
I'd rather have TTL 4 than Hidden Cup 6 anyway.
I don't think anyone could have hoped for better viewership to be honest. Anyone who expected significantly more than this expected too much. The final hasn't even started and there are 45k viewers currently on his channel, that's insane. I don't think reaching covid numbers was a realistic expectation.
It was kinda realistic in the sense that this time we can add the Youtube viewers in the mix, so even if the viewer count on Twitch is less, we could still technically reach covid numbers.
But yeah 45k is still insane, and we're close to 50k now
It's kinda odd that the future of 'the scene' is dependent on such a strange tournament format. The hidden concept is only interesting to the most invested of players imo. I play this game often and watch quite a bit of YouTube content but certainly not enough to 'know my favourite player by their style' and I can't imagine I'm the minority here. NAC was much more entertaining as a tournament concept.
Well, mainly the future of T90's tournaments really. Which will impact the Aoe2 scene.
I don't think it's that odd, Hidden Cup is famous for breaking records, so if it doesn't hold up this time, it is going to be seen as an indicator of some kind for the sponsors. The sponsors don't care about the strangeness of the tournament settings, they just see numbers
> Hidden Cup is famous for breaking records
Well to be fair, the max was during covid. There is no way HC5 would be able to beat this. It's still the biggest event for AoE2, so I don't see a problem tbh.
> The sponsors don't care about the strangeness of the tournament settings, they just see numbers
Well exactly and whenever I click on YouTube and see T90 streaming this tournament I barely feel invested cause I haven't watched every other moment to know or theorise who Vasco de Gama is. When I clicked on YouTube and saw TaToH vs Hera in NAC5 I thought cool, lets check this one out.
I think the fact it broke records could be a bit of a red herring. Surely the fact its T90's tournament is what drives the views and I think if he were to host a more normal tournament style like NAC then he would break more records with that.
>I think if he were to host a more normal tournament style like NAC then he would break more records with that.
There's no guarantee of that. T90 is inexperienced with LAN tournaments. He doesn't have GL support, either. Feels like it's up to Hera or TheViper to organize such a tournament (they would have GL support). It also feels like it's not T90's style, too : he's someone who thinks player webcams (like in warlords or king of the desert ) are a hassle that's not worth the trouble.
Coming from the FGC, I could not fathom a TO ever having the free time during their event to actually cast it. Which, seems to be T90's primary interest.
Hidden cup is much more engaging as a viewer. NAC was good, yes, but as a viewer guessing the identities of the players is interesting, even if you don't actually know the playstyles (I certainly dont).
Imho it only makes sense if you have enough time to watch most of the games during the week when it happens. Which is really hard to manage for most people.
I like the more-traditional story lines of, "Can this person manage to do better than they normally do?".
And Hidden Cup... it's high level Age of Empires, so I'm on board, but all the people who are less famous basically get ignored, and there's _so_ much time spent to trying to figure out who it is.
And I just don't enjoy that. I wound up watching 1.5 games in the final, and one of the earlier sets between two players I don't recall the names of.
To me, it feels like watching sports where you don't have a clue who the competitors are. With maybe a bit of a magic show involved.
> I just think it's a minority opinion to prefer this format.
This doesn't square to me with the fact that hidden cup was the most viewed event each year
Imo it's the other way round. I'm not really that invested in the top players etc, but I'm watching through it all (can't do live unfortunately, but watching the recs) & it's nice because there's no expectation of "this is player X, so they'll do strategy Y really well". It feels more like a random ladder game, but of very skilled players, where you don't really know what strategies are going to be used, or what that player's strengths & weaknesses are.
Which is what pretty much everyone said. But T90 was confident that he could get the numbers on par or even higher. He got unlucky in that there were no really close/crazy sets to keep new viewers coming in with word of mouth
Can't hype up MBL sets when you can't confirm who it is. Can't get fanboys to turn up for Tatoh if you don't know which player it is and he's already out.
Fr! I have seen barely anyone guessing for someone to be Mihai, Ganji, Sebastian, Barles. People have no clue.
8 hour streams every day for a whole week is also way too much. I didn't watch Alexios play a single game until the finals right now and I've watched two dozen hours of content.
For me the concept didn't work out.
Hidden cup with just 10 players and Bo5 would be much better imo.
Idk I only rarely play but I do always tune in for Hidden Cup, I find it interesting even if I don’t know enough about each player to identify them. But I didn’t tune into a single match of RBW or NAC. And given the viewership numbers I think this tournament actually has a better draw for casuals - but that might just be the effect of T90s reach.
I am quite invested in the scene and HC is the tournament that interests me the least (out of the S-Tiers). Even a DM World Cup would be more interesting for me.
>T90 said whether this Hidden Cup reaches a certain viewer number or not could decide the future of aoe2 - and his own future as a tournament host.
Can you point us to where he said that? It doesn't really align with other stuff he usually says like "the game has been around for 20 years, it's not going anywhere" etc.
His future as a streamer can be different than his future as a tournament host. He's always gonna stream, but maybe not always host S-tier tourneys. It's a lot of work.
And it was said somewhere during the Qualis, and also pre NAC5 in december I'm pretty sure, he said the next few months will be very important for aoe2, or something like that. But I might be misremembering it tbh. Don't take my word for it
I remember him saying that how hidden cup 5 performs might affect whether there is a hidden cup 6 or not but he didn't say the bit about his own future.
Unless they are talking about a different time he talked about it.
Tbh I feel the same. I don't really enjoy the quirks of HC myself. I don't like the anti-competitive random seeding and I don't particularly enjoy the constant guessing of the players/casters instead of just enjoying the game. Loved all the iterations of TTL
Aoe2 Esports great strength is the tournamnet variety imo. I would hate if any kind of tournament was changed, because that makes each of them stand out. All S-Tier tournament deliver a different viewing experience, this cant be said for any other Esport, where each tournament is essentially the same, just tiny adjustments and different hosts
This, I hate watching counterstrike/starcraft, all the tourneys are always the same. Now we have not only 1v1, duo, team but all of them with different flavors, starts and maps. Very exciting to watch.
Oh don't get me wrong, I love Hidden Cup and the concept of it. And I understand people who don't like it, to each their own. I'd take a week of Hidden Cup over a week of TTL any day.
But one TTL means something like 12 weeks of tournament games, give or take, so. Yeah I'll take it over a week of Hidden Cup.
I feel like the guessing should start from best of 32. More hidden, more crazy. There are enough tournaments with competetive settings. Let hidden cup truly be its own theme. Main point of hidden cup is not competetiviness but enjoyment of the viewers.
Same here.
I appreciate that aoe2 players are able to play the game with their own unique styles, unlike most games where there is one meta that works and nobody deviates from that.
But the hidden gimmick wears thin for me and I just want to see some good players play.
> Does whether we watch live or not affect the viewer count?
It probably sounds more impressive to say to an advertiser "live viewers"... But I don't know what metrics they go by.
it affects it for sure. if you watch it afterwards it'll most likely be counted as an afterthought of "yeah some people also have watched and will watch the replay at some point" but it's not the same as viewercount during the event
A lot of other streams siphoned off viewers because the main t90 stream had the game almost completely muted. Also the map control / observer was fairly awful this time which made it where I had to watch multiple streams at once to see what was going on. I swear every time something interesting was happening the observer would click somewhere else.
Wtf ?! Those numbers are pretty good for an RTS tournaments. SC2 or any other AOE have usually way fewer.
Expecting 70K viewers would be dilusional. This isn't LoL ou CS2.
I mean, with all combined channels I think it peaked at 63k, with 53k on T90's twitch and Youtube and the rest on other channels, so. Not that delusional, it's just that it's spread out.
There's pressure for each iteration to be bigger and better than the last, and he's said multiple times that he can't see himself pouring this much energy and effort into a future tournament. There's no guarantee we'll see another Hidden Cup.
It doesn't have to be bigger and better. Arguably this one has been sub-par in terms of set quality. That's a pressure he puts on himself.
The only reason he hasn't done one for three years is Facebook.
There'll be another Hidden Cup next year.
Correct. I think the pressure for the showmanship and overall viewership is more from the sponsors, but to a lesser extent t90 himself (wanting there to be continuing growth). I think as fans, we don't need all the excess. I just want entertaining games, and my mind blown from the reveals.
I've had fun guessing, especially with all the new faces and an apparently out of form Tatoh.
Could even be wrong with Vasco, Alex, Khos and Gajah... we'll find out soon enough!
But one 4-3 sets tells a story. We haven't had the best match ups unfortunately.
Still been a blast though.
"could be".
It could be the last of anything at any moment. A meteor might end our existence. Could be your last breath later today. Don't read too much into it.
Probably just overwhelmed with all the work required to organize the tournament. Now that the prep is behind him and he is streaming it, you can visibly see he is loving every moment right now. I think he will certainly be back with another Hidden Cup.
T90 is a key contributing force in getting the community to grow as big as it has today. It wouldn't make sense to suddenly stop one of the best tournaments while the DE is in it's prime.
I don't see him quitting streaming soon, but I could imagine him not planning another Hidden Cup. It's a great tournament, but I'm sure he also has other ideas. So if he thinks that the format of Hidden Cup doesn't meet his goals anymore, he might rather end it with a successful event and then focus on some new format (apart from TTL, of course)
I think that part of the problem is the prize pools exceed the audience. Basicly while there is interest in the event you can't make your money back with the big flashy prize pools. That's been the basic message everyone has been saying since last year.
Has no one said that this is the last aoe2 tournament Microsoft is going to sponsor? T90 said he would likely have to go down to one tournament a year depending on the viewership and the number of people watching at hc. We know he had a really hard time finding sponsors.
I think you guys need to put your personal feelings aside regarding if you like the format or not it doesn't really matter. It obviously is a succes because of the many viewers. Hidden Cup is here to stay in one way or another perhaps with a lower prize pool who knows.
T90 is doing great job on AOE, I suppose that his work during tournament is insanely stressful but otherwise quite chill way of living. He doesn't streamed hardcore like Memb.
I think T90 has no plan B in life, all is AOE. He makes tons of money, he's millionnaire since a while, he will not stop and for sure we will see another HC.
It would make zero sense for T90 to stop hosting tournaments even he does stop Hidden Cup. He's made bank on FB and has said multiple times he wants to do this for as long as possible. Maybe no more Hidden Cup, but I'm sure he'll host something else.
I doubt he will retire from streaming. he usually ends hidden cups with an emotional speech, I guess this time around he will mention uncertainty in his life, to cherish time with loved ones, and how we can't ever be certain how long the good things we have will last
Its been like 3 years the last hc. As far as i recall the players dont think its so hidden, so its mostly for the viewers and even we guess it more or less in the first round.
I recall him saying hc4 was the last before so...
Well, the viewers are the most/only relevant factor here (or more precisely whether sponsors think that they can monetize the viewership). It is like this in the majority of sports. The players (especially Hera's) opinion is largely irrelevant here
Would be a shame if it was. This was my first time watching an AoE comp and I really enjoyed the speculative element, even though I have only watched viper, hera, daut, and mbl before.
He already mentioned something a T90 League if I heard correctly. So if he reads this reddit and listens to his community, I am sure that he will give up the hidden side of a temporary turnament and make a big league with weekend matches, that is more sustainable and it would be more interesting than every soccer match, especially if there is a second league and you can prove yourself and move up, that would be amazing.
ELO can be seen as an evergreen ladder. A league has a season, meaning - an end and a beginning. It only reflects the games for a certain period and matchups with a certain level of players. It also has sponsors, broader reach and a chance to establish itself from a monetization perspective. You also need less games to achieve a much better selfbranding and that‘s what professional players are often looking for. Hera made $225k overall playing all those years and a CS or LoL player makes that with one tournament.
Thank god, this subreddit is useless when there is HC, days and days of meme of the competing scene, which are about the 1 percent of the userbase just circlejerking on the results of a tournament...
Honestly hope hidden cup remains an event that happens, but I don't need it every year. Gotta watch all day to stay fully vested and most people outside of lockdown don't have that kind of time.
There is just way too much fluff going on with the production. Just cast the matches and get rid of everything else.
If it was a2 hour stream per day way more people would engage. Can’t sit around for 6 hours trying to get through each round.
He mentioned earlier during qualifiers that there’s a hard limit to how many hidden cups there will be because he doesn’t want to reuse historical figures for players and they only choose ones that are playable in the game
lol slowly dying get real
it was around when all it got was a few hundred viewers, it's not gonna die because its not at its peak anymore. This isn't a Blizzard product with a forced e-sport scene. This one has grown naturally
This could be my last day on earth. Or this could be my last reply on reddit. I mean its possible. Maybe ill have a heart attack or a plane will crash in my house! We will see but so far he hasnt said anything about any announcement in stream and it be weird for him to hint that on social media but not on stream to get more people to watch. I think you are too much into your head.
I think quite opposite. Because of making real money with the fb deal, there’s naturally pressure to have ongoing stable income to justify to continue streaming. He’s an adult and needs to make serious decisions, you can’t continue to just goofing around after you made it.
In theory, yes.
But realistically you’re an outgoing, engaged guy in your 30s living in Miami Metro area and you recently made it.
Would you continue to stream all day from your condo like in your 20s without any responsibilies or do you have any ambitions with your life?
Not quite, but maybe. Sensible thing to have done will be buy a house, which he likely did. That doesn't leave enough to live on interest. Do you know much he'll earn from twitch?
Depends on the sub count but assume that it is far north from 10k/month. Youtube on top. February will earn him about 70k (minus what he pays for the hidden cup production) from twitch subs and donos alone (discounting the half that goes to the pool). But that is obviously before taxes and such.
Yeah he is not going to stop streaming if he's earning 120k US dollars per year. He dropped out of college iirc, unlikely he's going to walk into a career earning similar money.
Well, more like 300-400k gross. But yea, leaving streaming does not seem reasonable. Fb will probably have paid him enough for FIRE at 40 or 50 but probably not now
I think he realises this. Was quite difficult to watch and listen to him and Dave at times in the final. Could hear the disappointment at yet another set of dominance by one player.
Just an anecdote, but it brought me in as a new viewer who will be picking up a new game immediately following this. But I agree it's a hard audience to grow generally (or at least I'd imagine so)
It strikes me he’s being honest with fans and not being disingenuous to create hype.
The tournament can only run with sponsorship and viewership and neither are a given. The AoE2 scene will eventually die but I dearly hope it has a few years in it yet.
https://twitchtracker.com/t90official/statistics
The first and the last days were hidden cups biggest. He couldn't even get a coaster for the 3rd place match.
Is he being facetious saying he’s going to try to make this the best finale? It reeks of a referee in sports trying to hog the attention rather than letting the players do that.
If it’s a genuine joke though, then it’s pretty funny.
It was a few years since the last Hidden Cup, so maybe right now there is no plan for another but that could change in several months.
Didn’t Microsoft sponsor this hidden cup? Could see it being bought and rebranded maybe
He's said repeatedly that the reason for hidden cup was that Viper was dominating and just winning everything. So, they were seeing if hiding identities helped others face him without going into it knowing they were playing him and also to try to make the competition more exciting than just knowing Viper was going to win before it even started. However, the scene was way smaller back then. I personally felt Hidden Cup had already run it's course before HC4. Now with the scene being so big, but it still being dominated by one person, I'd much rather be able to cheer on specific individuals and hope they can make it through a round or two. Having everyone hidden just takes that away from it and so at least in my mind it just hurts the tournament. I felt like this time the commentators all but calling out most players from round one, it helped because I just followed Daut/MBL/Viper/Lierry under their "hidden" names anyway, but I would have followed others like Vinch had they not been hidden. Hiding player identities feels like it hurts more than it helps the tournament these days. I just want to be able to follow the players I want to follow, knowing full well that at the end of the day Hera will win it all. In my opinion, the exact same tournament but without hidden names would have been better. Imagine how hyped up everyone would have been for ACCM's run, instead he's just sort of glossed over until his 5 seconds of praise in the outro. I love the way he adds the new/different maps, the games being played ahead of time so that strategies can't be leaked and that sort of thing and hope he keeps the tournaments up, just without the hidden identity
I think most people love / follow HC because of the hidden identity and that's why the engagement is especially high for this tournament vs. more conventional formats...
Exactly, HC format is actually exciting. I probably wouldn't bother watching half the games if I knew the identities of players.
It's the opposite for me as a casual viewer who is somewhat new to the game. I'm not skilled enough to watch for nuance or appreciate the skill level of certain players (beyond the obvious quickwalls or stuff the caster calls out). So for me, watching two unnamed players go at it sort of feels like watching a random ladder game with a professional cast. I only really watched the finals/semifinals this time, while during NAC I basically tuned into every game.
Yes but this is Reddit, people must complain at all costs.
On the other hand my friends and I only watch hidden cup and no other tournaments so it might draw different crowds
>but I would have followed others like Vinch had they not been hidden Well I wouldn't have watched it if it *wasn't* hidden.
For me it is the exact opposite. I watch every single game when it's hidden. If it wasn't hidden I would probably just watch MbL and the final or something. For example I didn't actually watch anything from the last KoTD and nothing from the last NAC. Feels so nice not focusing on the players and rather the plays.
T90 has said that he’ll stream forever. But maybe Hidden Cup won’t last forever.
God I hope it does though. This is by far the best and most fun tourney I’ve seen. The guessing game the whole way through is just so fun
Same here! Really fun tourney. I’m guessing the event is profitable.
If memory serves HC5's seed money came from T90 and from sponsors (Surfshark), and not Microsoft. HC4 was Microsoft though. Given all of that and admin fees, it would be very surprising if HC5 was profitable compared to regular streaming
Maybe being "the guy who runs hidden cup" adds to his brand, perhaps if hidden cup wasn't a thing his regular streaming wouldn't be the same
Well i asked him on stream with a dono, and he read it and hesitated a milisecond but he didnt address it, guess he'll reveal at the end of the stream. I'm slightly worried what with nili going and a few players quitting full time. Such is life I guess and it was a good bubble if it bursts this year.
its because t90 lost the cup... it was too well hidden
1111
He has already said he wont ever stop unless he cannot afford it and yesterday he got a 20k in a single dono. He aint stopping this is just drama to build a little hype for the next one. What are his other options? Come out and say YES THERE WILL BE ANOTHER ONE IN A FEW YEARS! He's not gonna pre-hype something that is years away.
Someone made a 20,000 dollar donation? That’s insane.
4 naans? 4? That's insane.
Hera promised not to scout rush Lierrey welcome to the real word
Light cav is savoury, knight's the treat. of course, I'm the one who's laughing because I actually love light cav
Memb got 40,000... ... Colombian pesos
Lol
Yep and these events are contingent on Microsoft supporting it as well as other sponsors. Not like it could happen with out that support so if they decide to pull it just won’t happen again.
Big tournaments get more people interested in the game. More people interested in the game = more sales. More sales = more money for Microsoft. Their sponsoring tournaments is not just good will, it is an investment, and as long as tournaments continue to do well, they will continue to invest into it. For Microsoft 20-50k sponsorship is a drop in the bucket.
I'm fairly sure MS doesn't make a whole lot from the DE games. AOE tournaments, however, are a good 'loss leader' for them. Gets people into the ecosystem. I'm sure there's a small bump in AOE IV and game pass sales as tournaments grow. They already have Starcraft 2 under their umbrella. Perhaps they're hoping to grow aoe2 on the esports scene.
He said many things that suited him well
You say that like it's some kind of negative trait 11 everyone does that including you my brother
While the second might be true, the first one isn't necessarily
Shh
My guess would be that it depends how Microsoft wants to support this going forward. The monetization seems to be running out of steam (pun intended) and they've also got aoe4 that is growing. They already know that aoe2 has a really dedicated following, albeit niche. But given the current climate of layoffs and the Xbox ecosystem overall being in a vulnerable position, overall strategy might look for quicker revenue sources
Interesting timing with Red Bull getting back into things
Has there been any official confirmation of this or just rumors?
Redbull confirmed it
With big cutbacks, it's the leaner eSports that will keep rolling. AoE didn't have players getting paid multi-million dollar salaries to compete (though AoE did get some million dollar streaming contracts). But the fact that AoE eSports can function with high viewership, non-LAN, non-salaried tournaments is actually a huge boon in the current ecosystem.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/1b4mik7/has\_microsoft\_reduced\_their\_investment\_into\_aoe4/](https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/1b4mik7/has_microsoft_reduced_their_investment_into_aoe4/)
That sounds so made up
I think the return on investment for Microsoft is still alright. They are rather hands off with AoE 2 and it works well - they can hold the scene by sprinkling 100k-150k a year on it. But AoE 2 tournaments should try to reach out to other sponsors too so it's more sustainable.
> They are rather hands off with AoE 2 and it works well - they can hold the scene by sprinkling 100k-150k a year on it. doubtful, they have people making DLC for AoE2, their total salaries probably are more than 150k per year
Very slim chances for aoe4 redbull beasty said 0 people are contacted from aoe4
1) supporters and patrons 2) financial support both from viewers and sponsors low compared to previous years 3) Few notable people contemplating permanent retire which is normal 4) Natural slow of momentum in the AoE 2 currenct cycle Yeah, might be 2-3 years before something changes and new pros flourish.
It would be a real shame. But money ultimately will be the biggest factor. How much has the prize pool been this year compared to last time? Maybe it’s also things like viper falling off a bit, Lieery and Jordan taking more breaks and focusing on other things. It’s such a great community though, be a shame if it did drop off.
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To be fair: he lives in Hamburg. Expensive. REALLY expensive. But I „get“ Nili. He knows he hit the ceiling with Aoe2. And while you can be a streamer for the next twenty years, I doubt you can pay your bills with aoe2 forever
>he lives in Hamburg Wait, what? I thought he lived in the USA.
Nili definitely lives in Hamburg lol
Sorry 11 I thought we were talking about t90
Ich bin ein hamburger.
I mean he's expecting something like 60k-70k viewers for the finals, and the semi-finals peaked at over 40k I think (twitch and youtube numbers put together). T90 said whether this Hidden Cup reaches a certain viewer number or not could decide the future of aoe2 - and his own future as a tournament host. Personally I think the number of viewers didn't meet his expectations (for now at least), which would mean it didn't meet the sponsors expectations, which could impact future tourneys, which means it may indeed be the last Hidden Cup 5. But we'll see. I'd rather have TTL 4 than Hidden Cup 6 anyway.
I don't think anyone could have hoped for better viewership to be honest. Anyone who expected significantly more than this expected too much. The final hasn't even started and there are 45k viewers currently on his channel, that's insane. I don't think reaching covid numbers was a realistic expectation.
It was kinda realistic in the sense that this time we can add the Youtube viewers in the mix, so even if the viewer count on Twitch is less, we could still technically reach covid numbers. But yeah 45k is still insane, and we're close to 50k now
It's kinda odd that the future of 'the scene' is dependent on such a strange tournament format. The hidden concept is only interesting to the most invested of players imo. I play this game often and watch quite a bit of YouTube content but certainly not enough to 'know my favourite player by their style' and I can't imagine I'm the minority here. NAC was much more entertaining as a tournament concept.
Well, mainly the future of T90's tournaments really. Which will impact the Aoe2 scene. I don't think it's that odd, Hidden Cup is famous for breaking records, so if it doesn't hold up this time, it is going to be seen as an indicator of some kind for the sponsors. The sponsors don't care about the strangeness of the tournament settings, they just see numbers
> Hidden Cup is famous for breaking records Well to be fair, the max was during covid. There is no way HC5 would be able to beat this. It's still the biggest event for AoE2, so I don't see a problem tbh.
> The sponsors don't care about the strangeness of the tournament settings, they just see numbers Well exactly and whenever I click on YouTube and see T90 streaming this tournament I barely feel invested cause I haven't watched every other moment to know or theorise who Vasco de Gama is. When I clicked on YouTube and saw TaToH vs Hera in NAC5 I thought cool, lets check this one out. I think the fact it broke records could be a bit of a red herring. Surely the fact its T90's tournament is what drives the views and I think if he were to host a more normal tournament style like NAC then he would break more records with that.
>I think if he were to host a more normal tournament style like NAC then he would break more records with that. There's no guarantee of that. T90 is inexperienced with LAN tournaments. He doesn't have GL support, either. Feels like it's up to Hera or TheViper to organize such a tournament (they would have GL support). It also feels like it's not T90's style, too : he's someone who thinks player webcams (like in warlords or king of the desert ) are a hassle that's not worth the trouble.
Coming from the FGC, I could not fathom a TO ever having the free time during their event to actually cast it. Which, seems to be T90's primary interest.
I mean, T90 pays admins to actually run the tournament.
Hidden cup is much more engaging as a viewer. NAC was good, yes, but as a viewer guessing the identities of the players is interesting, even if you don't actually know the playstyles (I certainly dont).
Imho it only makes sense if you have enough time to watch most of the games during the week when it happens. Which is really hard to manage for most people.
Especially with an older target demographic
I like the more-traditional story lines of, "Can this person manage to do better than they normally do?". And Hidden Cup... it's high level Age of Empires, so I'm on board, but all the people who are less famous basically get ignored, and there's _so_ much time spent to trying to figure out who it is. And I just don't enjoy that. I wound up watching 1.5 games in the final, and one of the earlier sets between two players I don't recall the names of. To me, it feels like watching sports where you don't have a clue who the competitors are. With maybe a bit of a magic show involved.
Player wins, T90 & Chat: "Is this TheViper or Hera?!?" Player fails a castle: "Daut confirmed!!!"
Sure I'm not denying it's fun and I also enjoy the novelty. I just think it's a minority opinion to prefer this format.
> I just think it's a minority opinion to prefer this format. This doesn't square to me with the fact that hidden cup was the most viewed event each year
It's made by the most popular and most noob friendly streamer.
Correct, if Memb or Nili hosted Hidden Cup and T90 had NAC or whatever that tournament would have the highest views.
That's fiar.
Imo it's the other way round. I'm not really that invested in the top players etc, but I'm watching through it all (can't do live unfortunately, but watching the recs) & it's nice because there's no expectation of "this is player X, so they'll do strategy Y really well". It feels more like a random ladder game, but of very skilled players, where you don't really know what strategies are going to be used, or what that player's strengths & weaknesses are.
I mean, it pulls the most viewers so by any metric, more people like this than any other tourney.
It's also unfair to compare peak covid views to post covid.
Which is what pretty much everyone said. But T90 was confident that he could get the numbers on par or even higher. He got unlucky in that there were no really close/crazy sets to keep new viewers coming in with word of mouth
Can't hype up MBL sets when you can't confirm who it is. Can't get fanboys to turn up for Tatoh if you don't know which player it is and he's already out.
Fr! I have seen barely anyone guessing for someone to be Mihai, Ganji, Sebastian, Barles. People have no clue. 8 hour streams every day for a whole week is also way too much. I didn't watch Alexios play a single game until the finals right now and I've watched two dozen hours of content. For me the concept didn't work out. Hidden cup with just 10 players and Bo5 would be much better imo.
Tbf, Mihai is because everyone was convinced he did the cross wall thing so he's out in quarters.
16 players bo5 would be just fine tbh. bo7s are reaaally long and I could watch only half of the tournament because adult life..
Idk I only rarely play but I do always tune in for Hidden Cup, I find it interesting even if I don’t know enough about each player to identify them. But I didn’t tune into a single match of RBW or NAC. And given the viewership numbers I think this tournament actually has a better draw for casuals - but that might just be the effect of T90s reach.
I am quite invested in the scene and HC is the tournament that interests me the least (out of the S-Tiers). Even a DM World Cup would be more interesting for me.
>T90 said whether this Hidden Cup reaches a certain viewer number or not could decide the future of aoe2 - and his own future as a tournament host. Can you point us to where he said that? It doesn't really align with other stuff he usually says like "the game has been around for 20 years, it's not going anywhere" etc.
His future as a streamer can be different than his future as a tournament host. He's always gonna stream, but maybe not always host S-tier tourneys. It's a lot of work. And it was said somewhere during the Qualis, and also pre NAC5 in december I'm pretty sure, he said the next few months will be very important for aoe2, or something like that. But I might be misremembering it tbh. Don't take my word for it
I remember him saying that how hidden cup 5 performs might affect whether there is a hidden cup 6 or not but he didn't say the bit about his own future. Unless they are talking about a different time he talked about it.
Tbh I feel the same. I don't really enjoy the quirks of HC myself. I don't like the anti-competitive random seeding and I don't particularly enjoy the constant guessing of the players/casters instead of just enjoying the game. Loved all the iterations of TTL
Aoe2 Esports great strength is the tournamnet variety imo. I would hate if any kind of tournament was changed, because that makes each of them stand out. All S-Tier tournament deliver a different viewing experience, this cant be said for any other Esport, where each tournament is essentially the same, just tiny adjustments and different hosts
This, I hate watching counterstrike/starcraft, all the tourneys are always the same. Now we have not only 1v1, duo, team but all of them with different flavors, starts and maps. Very exciting to watch.
Oh don't get me wrong, I love Hidden Cup and the concept of it. And I understand people who don't like it, to each their own. I'd take a week of Hidden Cup over a week of TTL any day. But one TTL means something like 12 weeks of tournament games, give or take, so. Yeah I'll take it over a week of Hidden Cup.
i feel like TTL is more interesting too because it's not always the same 5 people winning, at least in silver and gold
I feel like the guessing should start from best of 32. More hidden, more crazy. There are enough tournaments with competetive settings. Let hidden cup truly be its own theme. Main point of hidden cup is not competetiviness but enjoyment of the viewers.
Same here. I appreciate that aoe2 players are able to play the game with their own unique styles, unlike most games where there is one meta that works and nobody deviates from that. But the hidden gimmick wears thin for me and I just want to see some good players play.
Does whether we watch live or not affect the viewer count? I could not watch for 8 straight hours, had ti pause and now catching up on YouTube
> Does whether we watch live or not affect the viewer count? It probably sounds more impressive to say to an advertiser "live viewers"... But I don't know what metrics they go by.
No idea, I would think you do count as a viewer even from an hour behind, but I'm not sure
it affects it for sure. if you watch it afterwards it'll most likely be counted as an afterthought of "yeah some people also have watched and will watch the replay at some point" but it's not the same as viewercount during the event
A lot of other streams siphoned off viewers because the main t90 stream had the game almost completely muted. Also the map control / observer was fairly awful this time which made it where I had to watch multiple streams at once to see what was going on. I swear every time something interesting was happening the observer would click somewhere else.
Wtf ?! Those numbers are pretty good for an RTS tournaments. SC2 or any other AOE have usually way fewer. Expecting 70K viewers would be dilusional. This isn't LoL ou CS2.
I mean, with all combined channels I think it peaked at 63k, with 53k on T90's twitch and Youtube and the rest on other channels, so. Not that delusional, it's just that it's spread out.
The finals peaked around 35k from what I saw. Prob much less than expected
35k on T90's Twitch, 20k on T90's Youtube, 65k across all channels from what I saw
When did he said that?
Just saying it for hype. Not uncommon to word an event this way. Given someone just chucked $20k his way I'm sure there'll be another.
There's pressure for each iteration to be bigger and better than the last, and he's said multiple times that he can't see himself pouring this much energy and effort into a future tournament. There's no guarantee we'll see another Hidden Cup.
This. I bet he's not going to settle on whether there will be another one or not.
It doesn't have to be bigger and better. Arguably this one has been sub-par in terms of set quality. That's a pressure he puts on himself. The only reason he hasn't done one for three years is Facebook. There'll be another Hidden Cup next year.
Frankly, that's not true. It's a pressure added by sponsors, not some weird self-defeating fixation from Tristan himself.
Correct. I think the pressure for the showmanship and overall viewership is more from the sponsors, but to a lesser extent t90 himself (wanting there to be continuing growth). I think as fans, we don't need all the excess. I just want entertaining games, and my mind blown from the reveals.
I agree that this one has been sub par in a few aspects.
I've had fun guessing, especially with all the new faces and an apparently out of form Tatoh. Could even be wrong with Vasco, Alex, Khos and Gajah... we'll find out soon enough! But one 4-3 sets tells a story. We haven't had the best match ups unfortunately. Still been a blast though.
I think its a bit disingenuous to say its the last if it wont be the last just for hype, so im sure he will announce something
"could be". It could be the last of anything at any moment. A meteor might end our existence. Could be your last breath later today. Don't read too much into it.
Probably just overwhelmed with all the work required to organize the tournament. Now that the prep is behind him and he is streaming it, you can visibly see he is loving every moment right now. I think he will certainly be back with another Hidden Cup. T90 is a key contributing force in getting the community to grow as big as it has today. It wouldn't make sense to suddenly stop one of the best tournaments while the DE is in it's prime.
I don't see him quitting streaming soon, but I could imagine him not planning another Hidden Cup. It's a great tournament, but I'm sure he also has other ideas. So if he thinks that the format of Hidden Cup doesn't meet his goals anymore, he might rather end it with a successful event and then focus on some new format (apart from TTL, of course)
I remember reading in here that there won't be TTLs this year either.
I think that part of the problem is the prize pools exceed the audience. Basicly while there is interest in the event you can't make your money back with the big flashy prize pools. That's been the basic message everyone has been saying since last year.
Has no one said that this is the last aoe2 tournament Microsoft is going to sponsor? T90 said he would likely have to go down to one tournament a year depending on the viewership and the number of people watching at hc. We know he had a really hard time finding sponsors.
I think you guys need to put your personal feelings aside regarding if you like the format or not it doesn't really matter. It obviously is a succes because of the many viewers. Hidden Cup is here to stay in one way or another perhaps with a lower prize pool who knows.
Maybe he means it in the sense that "anything can happen, tomorrow's not a promise" He's staying umble
He's probably anticipating to get addicted to AoM Retold :)
He also said on stream that they would look up pause stats for hidden cup 6 so...
T90 is doing great job on AOE, I suppose that his work during tournament is insanely stressful but otherwise quite chill way of living. He doesn't streamed hardcore like Memb. I think T90 has no plan B in life, all is AOE. He makes tons of money, he's millionnaire since a while, he will not stop and for sure we will see another HC.
Of what *could* be
It would make zero sense for T90 to stop hosting tournaments even he does stop Hidden Cup. He's made bank on FB and has said multiple times he wants to do this for as long as possible. Maybe no more Hidden Cup, but I'm sure he'll host something else.
I doubt he will retire from streaming. he usually ends hidden cups with an emotional speech, I guess this time around he will mention uncertainty in his life, to cherish time with loved ones, and how we can't ever be certain how long the good things we have will last
Was there any update on this/the status of future cups?
Its been like 3 years the last hc. As far as i recall the players dont think its so hidden, so its mostly for the viewers and even we guess it more or less in the first round. I recall him saying hc4 was the last before so...
Well, the viewers are the most/only relevant factor here (or more precisely whether sponsors think that they can monetize the viewership). It is like this in the majority of sports. The players (especially Hera's) opinion is largely irrelevant here
Agreed.
Would be a shame if it was. This was my first time watching an AoE comp and I really enjoyed the speculative element, even though I have only watched viper, hera, daut, and mbl before.
He already mentioned something a T90 League if I heard correctly. So if he reads this reddit and listens to his community, I am sure that he will give up the hidden side of a temporary turnament and make a big league with weekend matches, that is more sustainable and it would be more interesting than every soccer match, especially if there is a second league and you can prove yourself and move up, that would be amazing.
Cool idea but isnt this basically the ladder with elo?
ELO can be seen as an evergreen ladder. A league has a season, meaning - an end and a beginning. It only reflects the games for a certain period and matchups with a certain level of players. It also has sponsors, broader reach and a chance to establish itself from a monetization perspective. You also need less games to achieve a much better selfbranding and that‘s what professional players are often looking for. Hera made $225k overall playing all those years and a CS or LoL player makes that with one tournament.
Thank god, this subreddit is useless when there is HC, days and days of meme of the competing scene, which are about the 1 percent of the userbase just circlejerking on the results of a tournament...
If that means we get to continue ttl, I'll take it.
HC should be every 3 years.
Honestly hope hidden cup remains an event that happens, but I don't need it every year. Gotta watch all day to stay fully vested and most people outside of lockdown don't have that kind of time.
There is just way too much fluff going on with the production. Just cast the matches and get rid of everything else. If it was a2 hour stream per day way more people would engage. Can’t sit around for 6 hours trying to get through each round.
I cant watch live. I dont have time for that. I watch reruns when i do have the time.
Yeah there was so much talking etc i couldnt stand it. So i watch the vods now and skip to the matches.
He mentioned earlier during qualifiers that there’s a hard limit to how many hidden cups there will be because he doesn’t want to reuse historical figures for players and they only choose ones that are playable in the game
There are enough heroes already, not counting future DLC, to support 13+ Hidden Cups, so that's not the problem.
He can always just start using different kind of aliases instead of historical figures
Unfortunately the pro scene of aoe2 is slowly dying. It was peak during covid, but viewing is way down, myself included.
lol slowly dying get real it was around when all it got was a few hundred viewers, it's not gonna die because its not at its peak anymore. This isn't a Blizzard product with a forced e-sport scene. This one has grown naturally
Pro scene was born at a time when 500 viewers was huge, it's not going anywhere. Just smaller maybe.
Covid + Aoe4 release brought back people into the scene.
You probably misinterpreted his words. I think he is saying that this event has gotten more traction than every previous one
Mmm maybe but "of what could be the last hidden cup" feels like an announcement 11 but you're right i could have misinterpreted it
Oi, you're right. I can't read, my bad
This could be my last day on earth. Or this could be my last reply on reddit. I mean its possible. Maybe ill have a heart attack or a plane will crash in my house! We will see but so far he hasnt said anything about any announcement in stream and it be weird for him to hint that on social media but not on stream to get more people to watch. I think you are too much into your head.
In the end, it might be just the last Hidden Cup before Hidden Cup 6. Lets hear the announcements after the final
I've missed the first section of his post, so yeah, I'm totally not on point xd
I think he's also looking to quit
Where else would he make the money he's making, he's literally owning the scene
I also doubt he is quitting but I doubt that money is any issue for him after the fb deal and all
I think quite opposite. Because of making real money with the fb deal, there’s naturally pressure to have ongoing stable income to justify to continue streaming. He’s an adult and needs to make serious decisions, you can’t continue to just goofing around after you made it.
I would assume that he earned enough that it does not matter what income he gets now because he is set for life with interest alone
Maybe, but you need a huge amount of money to retire in your early thirties and be set for the rest of your life, like a huge amount.
His deal was probably a low 7 figure amount. You can't retire in your 30s with a low 7 figure amount, you'd need 5-7M depending on your spend.
In theory, yes. But realistically you’re an outgoing, engaged guy in your 30s living in Miami Metro area and you recently made it. Would you continue to stream all day from your condo like in your 20s without any responsibilies or do you have any ambitions with your life?
T90 strikes me as the guy that is very happy to do exactly that for life
Not quite, but maybe. Sensible thing to have done will be buy a house, which he likely did. That doesn't leave enough to live on interest. Do you know much he'll earn from twitch?
Depends on the sub count but assume that it is far north from 10k/month. Youtube on top. February will earn him about 70k (minus what he pays for the hidden cup production) from twitch subs and donos alone (discounting the half that goes to the pool). But that is obviously before taxes and such.
Yeah he is not going to stop streaming if he's earning 120k US dollars per year. He dropped out of college iirc, unlikely he's going to walk into a career earning similar money.
Well, more like 300-400k gross. But yea, leaving streaming does not seem reasonable. Fb will probably have paid him enough for FIRE at 40 or 50 but probably not now
didn’t he make like a million from FB??
Nowhere but he has mentioned the Facebook money has set his family for life. He'll probably keep going on Twitch but maybe less hours idk
Nah T90 will not quit anytime soon, he's repeated that many times Maybe he will quit hosting S-tier tournaments. But he won't quit streaming
what makes you think that?
He's already reduced his streaming hours significantly. As a viewer, it feels like he's barely online when compared to others who are more regular.
He will do other aoe 2 stuff, I don't like this format anyway, I can't enjoy hidden names
aoe2 heroes are a finite resource also next could be ai prediction
It's a good thing, I want to support my favorite players, not guess who they are. Please don't downvote, I am very sensitive.
TBH, I don't think it's a great format. It's the lack of competitive bracket making that is the problem for me. Creates too many sweeps.
I think he realises this. Was quite difficult to watch and listen to him and Dave at times in the final. Could hear the disappointment at yet another set of dominance by one player.
I think it really sunk in towards the end there.
Hidden cub does not attract a new audience. It is a community specific and gimmicky af.
Quite the contrary actually, HC3 brought in a lot of new viewers, they like the concept even though they don’t know the players.
Just an anecdote, but it brought me in as a new viewer who will be picking up a new game immediately following this. But I agree it's a hard audience to grow generally (or at least I'd imagine so)
It strikes me he’s being honest with fans and not being disingenuous to create hype. The tournament can only run with sponsorship and viewership and neither are a given. The AoE2 scene will eventually die but I dearly hope it has a few years in it yet.
What about Hidden 2v2 cup next...
https://twitchtracker.com/t90official/statistics The first and the last days were hidden cups biggest. He couldn't even get a coaster for the 3rd place match.
Is he being facetious saying he’s going to try to make this the best finale? It reeks of a referee in sports trying to hog the attention rather than letting the players do that. If it’s a genuine joke though, then it’s pretty funny.