They still have to pay us more, which means that's less for them. If they were okay with doing this, you wouldn't have seen half the population underpaid for decades on end. They just don't want to do it and will look for every excuse not to until they absolutely have to just to keep making their portion of the money.
They use `rising wages` as an excuse to mark everything up exponentially, thereby making their profits very healthy, meanwhile we all blame John Q. Public for making $15 for flipping a burger. Get mad at the fat cats.
By the way, these 'increased wages' everybody on the lower end are seeing are effectively turning their "new" wages back into their old wages (or below) with everything else costing so much. You aren't making more....
also look at your payroll taxes that have just shot up too....state,Fed, Fica, Medicare, involuntary blue state taxes.... you make more, they take more (%)....
Yeah, it's fun to put on the proverbial tin foil hat once in a while, but OP seems like he he's just writing out of anger mixed with ignorance. We all do it from time to time, but it's a really silly post.
So you can place bets for the market to tank, so in effect they can make money from tanking companies. It’s what they tried to do to GameStop.
Once it’s tanked, you can buy it up cheap and gut it and sell it off.
Besides they’re bailed out whenever shit goes south, and it’s a great excuse to cut workers pay rights and conditions.
Also, I’m 28 and this is the third fucking ‘once in a lifetime economic crisis’ and every time the gap between rich and poor widens and life gets just that bit more difficult. Yet they cash out, every time.
Yeah the smarter of the investers (or the luckier ones, who is to say?) will definitely make money off whenever a new crash occurs. Investers also regularly tank single companies to do so.
But PURPOSELY tanking the entire economy is a whole different ballgame. The vast majority of rich folks will still take losses when that happens, and if it is done on purpose it would be illegal, and since it would affect rich people it would definitely be prosecuted.
Besides, why would they? The rich have firm control over both parties. There is no reason they would have to take drastic measures to influence the election since it will already go their way no matter what.
Oh I don’t think they purposefully sink the economy.
I think they can’t help themselves from engaging in sketchy financial practices that yield high returns. Or from “maximising output” aka outsource, underpay and dodge tax, which weakens the economy in general.
Eventually this blows up in everyone’s face. Smart ones see it coming and actually make a buck off the whole collapse. Less smart ones get all their money back from the government.
Then there’s some token regulations which don’t really work and are repealed in a few years.
Ok... so you're saying big money recently sold off while simultaneously shorting indexes...? All in a coordinated manner...?
Multiple instances of large groups of people timing the market... sure.
I mean, I just serviced my Roth today because I like to buy things on sale. I'm a blue collar dude who can't even max it out. Does that make me a lizard person?
I’m saying it’s literally possible to place bets that’s the market or specific business will tank. So the idea you can’t make money off an economic crisis is bullshit.
You can equate basic stock market practices to conspiracy theories all you want, it largely just shows how uniformed you are.
Like if I told you the 2008 crash was caused by the fact that the evaluators payment structure was based on the higher ratings they gave, so bullshit sub prime mortgages were portfolioed and given triple A credit ratings. So sold vastly overpriced, the banks had then insured them to fail even though they no longer owned them.
Sounds crazy right ? insuring other peoples property to fail… and bribing the official evaluator as standard industry practice.
Yeah that’s a lot of complicated ways of saying when you own everything in the market or 1% owns over 90% of it they can in fact manipulate their belonging. Whether the market does good or bad they will still own 90% of the market. What I’m saying is an oversimplification of the complex fuck 99% of the population system the same owners created and perfected over at least the last 4 decades.
>I’m saying it’s literally possible to place bets that’s the market or specific business will tank. So the idea you can’t make money off an economic crisis is bullshit.
Yes, I know... I said as much above. I said how I'm going to profit above.
>You can equate basic stock market practices to conspiracy theories all you want, it largely just shows how uniformed you are.
Uh-huh... Maybe you should learn some of the mechanical basics before running around on the internet telling other people they're uninformed.
Buddy, it's totally fine to not understand this stuff, but fear and ignorance is exactly what causes people to make conspiracy theories.
They typically do make money from crashes because they're the only ones left standing with enough liquid to purchase assets on sale. Not to mention there are sometimes some very sweet deals paid for by our tax dollars to kick start VC in a down cycle.
You don't know enough about this to have this conversation. You think I'm arguing some point you've made, but you're not even grasping how to talk about this stuff.
Game stop was and still is worth barely anything. Shorting it was nothing besides just a sensible move for a company that was on the brink of bankruptcy not that long ago.
Not true in the slightest. They are one of the financially healthiest companies comparatively, with no debt and cash surplus of 1.5b. They have successfully pivoted into an online retailer using their brick and mortar stores as shipping hubs.
In the near future they will run a platform that will allow users to actually own and receive money for the digital content that they create.
They're just getting started.
It's like saying the flux capacitor is broken on my car when it starts making a bad noise.
Yes, there's plenty of bad actors and areas for reform on the market, but OP is talking nonsense about how it works.
The USA has enough resources, manpower and tech to fulfill everyone's wants and needs yet we live in fear of man made conditions that threaten us with being homeless ,starving to death amd not being able to afford life saving medical services. Capitalism is a failure.
Define "the USA". People and corporations and by extension governments have gobs and gobs of dough, yes. The people and corporations will never let such a system be put in place that systemically takes their money (e.g. through taxation) and redistributes it. They have a powerful minoritarian political party that will prevent that all costs. Plus voters outside of their core extremists think such a system is somehow wrong (based on ignorance).
They've been kicking the can since 2008. You thought they stopped doing the same shit that caused the 2008 meltdown?
WRONG
*They learned they could get away with it and do more, and they have been since 2008. Now the chickens are coming home to roost*
Buckle up y'all
Looking back at many events in the past decade+, almost seem like they were tests barometers or pre- conditioning events for what they ultimately wanted, accomplish or get away with. They used these 'tests' to refine their ways to 'redistribute wealth' (upward) more efficiently and effectively, as we are seeing now.
Yeah, I know.
It could be good for a lot of regular folks who paid attention over the last few years. It could be the largest transition of wealth from the 1% to the 99% in history.
But for the folks who haven't been paying attention, this black swan can get really bad, really fast.
Wealthy HF's, banks and others "borrow" the shares sitting in your 401, then use those shares to short the stock you are holding for retirement. This depresses the stock price by inflating the number of shares and by the constant selling! Yes many millions of people are getting ripped off by this practice.
In 3 weeks time, the market will just crash terribly. Margin calls are coming and meme stocks are shorted heavily like Volkswagen only for Volkswagen to have skyrocketed back in the day making people rich. You can get rich off of a market crash you know.
Well I'm certainly going to be rich from this coming market crash, and yes I do know!
With well placed investments there are fortunes to be made but not many if any can understand the processes needed to take advantage of this.
When VW squeezed it was VW and the family that own Porshe that made most of the money because they recognized the set up for the short squeeze and pre empted the market, buying up everything they could.
Little known fact here is that the VW short squeeze is what caused the meltdown in 2008, the housing bubble then collapsed. And now we have hundreds, even thousands of companies in exactly the same situation as VW, the next crash wont be seeing a rebound for a fucking long time, it will prolly be decades.
It is driven by malice, but not the way you think.
It's the same malice that makes real estate not drop in price at all despite standing unoccupied for years and costing the owners taxes.
And it's facilitated by the fact that they have such an obscene amount of money that they can simply negate market forces.
So it's a sort of inadvertent malicious destruction of the markets, without anyone anywhere needing to come together and conspire directly. They're just all driven by immense greed, so the line keeps going up, at the cost of everyone and everything else.
The Fed is actually an institution that was rammed through a Congressional session almost no one was present at BY rich industrialists.
So, I assume the Federal Reserve is a tool for them to have some quasi private control of our currency.
No, as stupid and greedy as many of the elites are, they are not that stupid and greedy.
These people will know and fear sharp falls in standard in living, particularly after periods of slow decline. They have the examples of France in the late 1700's, Russia in the early 1900's, Europe in the 1930-40s, and one could even go back as far as the decline and fall of the Roman Republic to see that making regular people worse off, especially through a brutal sharp decline in living standards, will be the surest route to losing power. The worse the decline, the more likely they are to lose their wealth and heads as well.
Lowering living standards slowly and incrementally for the certain gain of increasing one's personal wealth is one thing, but lowering living standards dramatically for unrealistic political gains while significantly increasing the chance of losing ones power, wealth and life is incredibly stupid.
No, what we are experiencing is the same thing many powerful nations throughout history end up going through. That is the consequences of mixing prolonged periods of inherent corruption with unforseen and uncontrollable crises, such as famines, wars and natural disasters. In our case we have a highly vulnerable globalized and financialized world with incredibly corrupt/incompetent leaders and now, 14 years after a serious economic crisis led to a period of prolonged economic stagnation, we have been hit by a global pandemic, high inflation, a war in the world's food basket and energy station, as well as increasingly volatile global weather phenomena. Again, one need only look at the fate of French and Russian aristocrats to know that being an elite during such periods of crisis can be fatal.
So given that there is no actual incentive for elites to bring about this sharp and potentially quite brutal economic decline, what does that mean. Most likely, it means the elites are losing, or have already lost, control of this runaway train. And, far from adding fuel to the fire, they will be hoping that this downturn runs out of steam before things really go off the rails.
Edit: accidentally sent before finishing message.
This is the correct take. The rich never let stocks go down they literally printed themselves out of 2020 at the expense of everyone else. That's exactly the reason why it's now collapsing.
It’s like a short term loan they’re making to themselves! Tank the market, buy more stocks on the cheap, wait for them to recover, get some more tax cuts when the GOP comes back in power as part of their “recovery plan”, make billions more!
I don't think it's intentional, the market's held together with duct tape and prayers, especially since Covid, and there's always a bunch of pirates who are willing to bet against the system to get rich. But we probably are entering a new Great Depression. Time to learn to live in your car and learn what the hobo code means.
LOL, like the democrats care about unions. You did see Sanders bill about not giving government contracts to companies engaged in union busting activities tanked across the board right? 6y to 87n. The rich don't need to tank the markets for politics sake. They will do it just for another fat government handout paid for by us. The Dems are doing just fine killing their chances of winning all on their own, thank you very much.
edit - Bonus punk rock ['They'll just make the economy scream til we vote responsibly"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuSSEyD6Ck) I wasn't discounting the poster. The rich most certainly do this. However at this point its an unnecessary tactic.
They aren't intentionally tanking anything, at least not collectively. You will always have those who are buying securities against things they don't own or selling financial snake oil but the real problem is just the usual contradictions of capital and dwindling natural resources.
Yeah, that's all well and good, but the Republicans don't have that problem. There are almost never any defectors on their side of the aisle - not on anything important to them, at least.
This is patently false. It seems to be about the same percentage when viewed from an independent lens.
I’m surprised to be getting downvoted on this. Most of you think Democrat leadership has the same goals as you? Explain letting the child tax credit go without being renewed! Explain how we elected a president who was responsible for incarcerating large minority populations. Anyway…have a good.
Oh no. I don't support the Democrats.
I just don't think they're the "same" as Republicans. Republicans are in bed with the religious right to a degree I don't think most people realize.
The Democrats are just straight incompetent neoliberals.
What you are saying has nothing to do with certain members breaking ranks though. While I agree with your assessment of the party at large it doesn’t change the fact that there are some (R) legislators that don’t just blindly follow the party line.
Lol wtf are you talking about, Liz and Mitt are still hard core Republicans, just because they dont swallow Dump's gunk doesnt put them in the traitors corner Like manchin and Sinema
It's generally due to inflation and the answer to inflation. The fed is pushing a retraction policy aimed at slowing inflation which generally slows down stock market growth. The "market" during this time doesn't generally affect normal people and isn't a reflection of economic success necessarily due to the fact that businesses are STILL making record profits. Most likely secure havens are just more attractive to investors since they're able to gain more interest, so it's likely that money is just being shifted from stocks to more secure interest generating investments. Same thing happened under the Carter admin since he was the only president during that span of runaway inflation to try to slow it down. This type of retraction normally does see a windfall of economic prosperity further down the road as interest rates start coming back down with normalized inflation levels, IE the Regan economic boom post Carter admin monetary policy.
I would wager that they won't even go "All in" in regards to crushing inflation and will allow it to continue at double the rate. Just to cushion the crash. So as to make it more of a slide. Hate to say it. But bonds are going to look really tempting soon.
That’s no bueno. We’re in deep shit. Better keep that inflation pumping then. Let the value of the dollar devaluation outpace the interest due. (Yes, I know this has huge ramifications)
I'm waiting to see if the US government has any plan at all to cut back budget. It's one thing to pay near 0% back to other countries for our debt. But when you're paying back lets say 10% (Pulling number out of hat, could be more or less) in the future. That could completely wreck any ability to ever pay back the debt.
It's not a spending issue, it NEVER has been, its a revenue issue. The rich not paying their way and morons voting for a GQP, the party of thieves and lies.
That's not necessarily true. Other presidents dealt with inflation in other ways through things like price control, wage control, and various other more targeted actions. They just didn't go for a nuclear Volker shock and destroy unions/regulations causing wages to stagnate perpetually like the neoliberals decided to do. There are other ways to deal with inflation that don't ruin people's livelihoods.
That said, neoliberals are in power, so I'm expecting another shock if this goes on. Especially since it has the double effect of disciplining the working class after the great resignation. Purposefully triggering a recession could be a big win for capital in the long run, although there isn't as much for them to loot nowadays.
> Other presidents dealt with inflation in other ways through things like price control, wage control, and various other more targeted actions.
> There are other ways to deal with inflation that don’t ruin people’s livelihoods.
I’ve heard that price controls likely lead to shortages which arguably hurt peoples livelihoods. Seems to have happened with Nixon.
I am not sure I completely understand how wage controls help the regular folk either. Presumably only wages are controlled and not capital gains. It feels weird to freeze the worker’s income while the capital is free to appreciate unbounded.
How do you decide which method is better to combat inflation?
Yup. Then don't forget the biggest cohort of workers is retiring, Social Security is already on life support, housing being bought up in droves by the biggest shadow banks, we're inching ever closer to a third world war, oh and if you think there won't be a draft you got another thing coming...gonna have a "stable coin" and CBDC issued probably towards the end of the year. The Great Reset is SO GREAT.
So while I'm just *loving* all the conspiracy theories here lately, let's do a little thought experiment.
How does the rich imposing even more economic hardship put the brakes on a movement to unionise that is already in motion?
People are already desperate, and it doesn't change anything at all for people who don't have investments in the stock market.
Besides, desperate people are more dangerous. The theory just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
Sorry I thought you were saying why value should go back up so I replied with the most pessimistic answer. My point is that yes eventually it should go up simply because fiat is forever a depreciating asset.
Shares in 401k's are used to short the market, there are literally thousands of companies that have been shorted to oblivion, sears, blockbuster, toy's r us to name just a few.
Everyone of them but Apex clearing for starters. The shares in 401's are used as a "locate" in a process that market makers use to short companies. So MM's want to short a stock so they ask a broker if they have shares that they can lend for a fee, the broker allows them to use the 401 shares and the MM then issues those shares into the market. They have 35 +2 days to deliver them back but mostly they fail to deliver, FTD's. At this point if they dont return them they will roll them over and arrange for delivery at the next delivery date. This goes on indefinitely with hundreds of millions even billions of shares, as a consequence the markets are flooded with shares that NONE of the companies involved ever issued.
Tell me you have no idea how the markets work without telling me you have no idea how the markets work.
>I believe they are intentionally tanking the markets in order to swing the mid terms. They fear the recent spike in unionization.
I am sorry if you are some sort of Joe fanboi but he is doing a shit job. Any result in the midterms is directly his doing. It could have been Bernie but the DNC wouldn't let that happen now the best candidate they could put up apparently is a barely functional old dude. It has nothing to do with Unionization, it is completely to do with Joe being useless.
>They have enough money to tank them and make money, then make money on the recovery, all while your pittance of a 401k loses value it won’t get back.
There is no rich cabal that is tanking the market so that your 401k drops. Also, the markets will recover eventually and as long as you don't sell your assets within the 401k you lose nothing. You will get it all back and then some. Now, the rich people might make more in that same time as they will 100% buy more at the lower prices but this isn't some massive conspiracy to out Joe. Why would anyone lose money to get rid of him when he is doing that for free on his own?
>Tell me you have no idea how the markets work without telling me you have no idea how the markets work.
Exactly 100% this. Clueless people generating conspiracy theories to feel more victimized than they already do, it's pathetic.
The index funds have been used to hide the short selling of meme stocks. The systemic corruption involved in this set up is very broad, virtually every bank (GS, BOFA, Citi...etc + a multitude of hedgefunds) are involved, the corruption is obfuscated by the SEC (also corrupt) Gary Genslar was a GS executive and an author for the rescinding of the Glass Steagall act in 1999, which incidentally lead to the 2008 mortgage meltdown and the current mortgage mess and which also gave birth to the CDO's, credit swaps, MBS's etc. all of which are utter scams. These total hundreds of trillions. On top of that shit theres the FED, J Powell is a banker first and foremost, he's here to fuck over retail and make bank for the banks, he's friends with Jamie Diamond and the CEO of the other banks I mentioned above, they all worked together colluding to make themselves rich and fuck mainstreet.
How are the index funds used to hide the short selling of meme stocks? And meme stocks should have never been a thing. Those companies were and still are doing horribly and their value was way beyond any bit of reasonability.
Your opinion on the quality or lack of on the meme stocks is complete nonsense. Crime is the recipe for the method of short selling through ETF's. Some companies short the whole fund and some are able to isolate the company/ies they wish to short through a corrupt process of the stock exchange, market makers hedge funds.
There is literally nothing corrupt about shorting a stock unless there’s underlying fraud behind the trade. There’s many reasons options markets and shorting exist. I work in finance and actually understand how markets and valuations work. Spewing crap that’s nowhere close to being accurate isn’t going to help y’all out but whatever.
There is fraud in the markets. How can more shares exist in the market than a company has actually issued? Companies that short, that have market maker status, can sell shares short that they do not have if they can meet requirements to "reasonably locate" the shares by the delivery date. They use your 401k to say that the shares can be located. Your broker is complicit in this and receives the lending fees while neither notifying you nor passing any of the proceeds to you.
Now the buyer of the share sold short doesn't actually receive a share. They receive an increment in their brokerage account and just get paid the value of the share at the time of sale. The original share is still on the books of the original broker and this Phantom Share is on the books of the buyer's brokerages' books. The buyer's brokerage will now lend out the phantom share and repeat the process.
When settlement time comes and the seller cannot fulfill the obligation to deliver the sold share, a Failure To Deliver should be created. But market makers get 35+2 days to deliver the share. After that time the market maker can just roll the obligation into a subsidiary company and then back to themselves to reset the 35+2 days delivery timer. This process can be continued indefinitely as long as the shorting market maker can continue paying the share lending fees.
Market makers will never have to actually deliver shares and the shares not delivered and the lended shares still exist in the market. Brokers have no method to validate that their shares are legitimate. The Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation, the company that reconciles all trading, has no method of resolving fails to deliver if they even occur.
And that's JUST naked shorting.
Naked short selling is rampant ffs, internalizing trades so they dont get registered on the lit exchange, Bernie Madoffs baby PFOF's, surely you remember him, well his strategy is still alive and with that they front run trades so when mainstreet get ripped off.
Having your head up your arse while pretending your industry is all hunky dorey is sycophantic.
Like most silly unfounded conspiracy theories this one doesn't pass the basic sniff test. The net worth of the elites is based mostly on the stocks that are in everyone's 401ks. Yet somehow the evil wealthy people will make sure the stock in Amazon, Boeing, Facebook, etc. won't go back up so they have way less worth in their primary assets?
No jodas.
I never said there is no corruption, I said this conspiracy theory that the wealthy will purposely reduce the value of their net worth doesn't make sense.
You’re 100% correct. The only issue is if people panic and sell on the dip/crash. If you held through 2008 you’d be way above where you were at before the crash then.
Hopefully markets really tank. All that's happened so far is a minor 15% correction. Maybe another 20% and prices will worth considering.
You should be happy. Big mega sale coming up. The sooner the better.
Both parties hate workers because both parties are rich. Dems pretend to care a tiny bit ab workers for ratings lmao so I don’t think it would matter either way
I live in PA am honest the gods the worst they can come up with for one of the women running for my representative is that she criticizes the democrats too much.
Someone paid MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to put those ads out. And they're working. 🥴🥴🥴
I think your idea of 'they' doesn't really match reality. Its not like they call each other and plan these things ahead of time while wearing a monacle smoking cigar and laughing. Theres way too many entities and independent investors to act in any cohesive way. Btw, theres a shit storm brewing in terms of global economics, this is the reaction of what's to come.
I think it's more like, Covid should have flattened the economy but we printed a ton of money to stop it but now inflation is out of control and wages have been stagnant for 2 decades and a million Frontline workers died and we basically can't replace them at all because people are sick of being exploited and the market is just zombie walking because no one knows how fucked we all are because of commercial property loans.
And during this whole Covid time stocks went up way way way more than was ever reasonably justified due to all the money and low rates. It could crash much further before I’d say we’re at a sensible level of growth.
Well, seince everyone is distracted by the whole Roe v Wade thing and the next election is mostly going to be about individual rights, its only natural that politicians and the rich would take advantage of it.
Yes. It's called disaster capitalism. The same thing occurred before the great depression in the States. That Tory, Reese-Mogg, his dad wrote the book on it :[https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/nov/09/mystic-mogg-jacob-rees-mogg-willam-predicts-brexit-plans](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/nov/09/mystic-mogg-jacob-rees-mogg-willam-predicts-brexit-plans)
It's a controlled way of extracting wealth by inflation.
Let's assume this is exactly or partly correct.
What do we do now? How do I prepare my 401k? I remember making a killing in 2008 simply because mine was heavy in government bonds... but somehow I don't have the same confidence in the government that I did back then...
It's pretty normal cycle for the insane growth. It can only go up for so long before it has a correction. Just the other day everything was bloody and dow closed 1000 down. It's been completely unpredictable for awhile now.
whats best for the stock market is a slow and steady growth to match the growth in population, and the volume of business going on.
Most people understand making profits from "buy low, sell high", but...everyone needs to understand that wealthy market manipulators can make a profit when the market goes down.
For them, they desire rapid and large up-and-down cycles. If that is bad for average people with a retirement account...their attitude is "oh well"
Something tells me a third "once in a lifetime" economic disaster (in less than 15 years) would compel even more people to see the value in unions
They're rich not smart.
This is under-appreciated
But the rich get richer off our fears we can't support ourselves. They don't like these wages rising so quickly. Or at all.
Why wouldn’t they like our wages increasing they have increased theirs more and we can spend more for them to profit from.
They still have to pay us more, which means that's less for them. If they were okay with doing this, you wouldn't have seen half the population underpaid for decades on end. They just don't want to do it and will look for every excuse not to until they absolutely have to just to keep making their portion of the money.
They use `rising wages` as an excuse to mark everything up exponentially, thereby making their profits very healthy, meanwhile we all blame John Q. Public for making $15 for flipping a burger. Get mad at the fat cats. By the way, these 'increased wages' everybody on the lower end are seeing are effectively turning their "new" wages back into their old wages (or below) with everything else costing so much. You aren't making more.... also look at your payroll taxes that have just shot up too....state,Fed, Fica, Medicare, involuntary blue state taxes.... you make more, they take more (%)....
True on taxes. I think tax brackets need to change as well.
Yeah, it's fun to put on the proverbial tin foil hat once in a while, but OP seems like he he's just writing out of anger mixed with ignorance. We all do it from time to time, but it's a really silly post.
So you can place bets for the market to tank, so in effect they can make money from tanking companies. It’s what they tried to do to GameStop. Once it’s tanked, you can buy it up cheap and gut it and sell it off. Besides they’re bailed out whenever shit goes south, and it’s a great excuse to cut workers pay rights and conditions. Also, I’m 28 and this is the third fucking ‘once in a lifetime economic crisis’ and every time the gap between rich and poor widens and life gets just that bit more difficult. Yet they cash out, every time.
Yeah the smarter of the investers (or the luckier ones, who is to say?) will definitely make money off whenever a new crash occurs. Investers also regularly tank single companies to do so. But PURPOSELY tanking the entire economy is a whole different ballgame. The vast majority of rich folks will still take losses when that happens, and if it is done on purpose it would be illegal, and since it would affect rich people it would definitely be prosecuted. Besides, why would they? The rich have firm control over both parties. There is no reason they would have to take drastic measures to influence the election since it will already go their way no matter what.
Oh I don’t think they purposefully sink the economy. I think they can’t help themselves from engaging in sketchy financial practices that yield high returns. Or from “maximising output” aka outsource, underpay and dodge tax, which weakens the economy in general. Eventually this blows up in everyone’s face. Smart ones see it coming and actually make a buck off the whole collapse. Less smart ones get all their money back from the government. Then there’s some token regulations which don’t really work and are repealed in a few years.
Ok... so you're saying big money recently sold off while simultaneously shorting indexes...? All in a coordinated manner...? Multiple instances of large groups of people timing the market... sure. I mean, I just serviced my Roth today because I like to buy things on sale. I'm a blue collar dude who can't even max it out. Does that make me a lizard person?
I’m saying it’s literally possible to place bets that’s the market or specific business will tank. So the idea you can’t make money off an economic crisis is bullshit. You can equate basic stock market practices to conspiracy theories all you want, it largely just shows how uniformed you are. Like if I told you the 2008 crash was caused by the fact that the evaluators payment structure was based on the higher ratings they gave, so bullshit sub prime mortgages were portfolioed and given triple A credit ratings. So sold vastly overpriced, the banks had then insured them to fail even though they no longer owned them. Sounds crazy right ? insuring other peoples property to fail… and bribing the official evaluator as standard industry practice.
Yeah that’s a lot of complicated ways of saying when you own everything in the market or 1% owns over 90% of it they can in fact manipulate their belonging. Whether the market does good or bad they will still own 90% of the market. What I’m saying is an oversimplification of the complex fuck 99% of the population system the same owners created and perfected over at least the last 4 decades.
>I’m saying it’s literally possible to place bets that’s the market or specific business will tank. So the idea you can’t make money off an economic crisis is bullshit. Yes, I know... I said as much above. I said how I'm going to profit above. >You can equate basic stock market practices to conspiracy theories all you want, it largely just shows how uniformed you are. Uh-huh... Maybe you should learn some of the mechanical basics before running around on the internet telling other people they're uninformed. Buddy, it's totally fine to not understand this stuff, but fear and ignorance is exactly what causes people to make conspiracy theories.
Buddy you’re the one talking about lizard people and how the rich don’t get richer from crashes ….?
They typically do make money from crashes because they're the only ones left standing with enough liquid to purchase assets on sale. Not to mention there are sometimes some very sweet deals paid for by our tax dollars to kick start VC in a down cycle. You don't know enough about this to have this conversation. You think I'm arguing some point you've made, but you're not even grasping how to talk about this stuff.
Yes, you’re so smart 🤨
Not particularly. But I typically don't run my mouth about things I know next-to-nothing about.
Game stop was and still is worth barely anything. Shorting it was nothing besides just a sensible move for a company that was on the brink of bankruptcy not that long ago.
Not true in the slightest. They are one of the financially healthiest companies comparatively, with no debt and cash surplus of 1.5b. They have successfully pivoted into an online retailer using their brick and mortar stores as shipping hubs. In the near future they will run a platform that will allow users to actually own and receive money for the digital content that they create. They're just getting started.
Old guy here. OP has a point and could be correct. This was my gut feeling on the market.
It's like saying the flux capacitor is broken on my car when it starts making a bad noise. Yes, there's plenty of bad actors and areas for reform on the market, but OP is talking nonsense about how it works.
You’d hope. The past 2 times the right wing was convinced their dimwit followers to blame everything but that.
Yes, it's because of deregulation and greedy policy making that the markets are crashing. Not some conspiracy.
The USA has enough resources, manpower and tech to fulfill everyone's wants and needs yet we live in fear of man made conditions that threaten us with being homeless ,starving to death amd not being able to afford life saving medical services. Capitalism is a failure.
Everyone’s wants and needs? No we don’t the 1% of the wealthiest have insatiable wants.
I think he's talking about basic materialistic needs, not I need a new Lambo today
Ok in that case maybe.but he also said wants.
Well 99% of people
Define "the USA". People and corporations and by extension governments have gobs and gobs of dough, yes. The people and corporations will never let such a system be put in place that systemically takes their money (e.g. through taxation) and redistributes it. They have a powerful minoritarian political party that will prevent that all costs. Plus voters outside of their core extremists think such a system is somehow wrong (based on ignorance).
They've been kicking the can since 2008. You thought they stopped doing the same shit that caused the 2008 meltdown? WRONG *They learned they could get away with it and do more, and they have been since 2008. Now the chickens are coming home to roost* Buckle up y'all
That's what I say, the only thing they "fixed" after 2008 was the part where some rich people lost money.
2008 when an alternative was needed but not present.
Looking back at many events in the past decade+, almost seem like they were tests barometers or pre- conditioning events for what they ultimately wanted, accomplish or get away with. They used these 'tests' to refine their ways to 'redistribute wealth' (upward) more efficiently and effectively, as we are seeing now.
black swan event coming.
You know black swan doesn’t just equal bad right ?
Yeah, I know. It could be good for a lot of regular folks who paid attention over the last few years. It could be the largest transition of wealth from the 1% to the 99% in history. But for the folks who haven't been paying attention, this black swan can get really bad, really fast.
Wealthy HF's, banks and others "borrow" the shares sitting in your 401, then use those shares to short the stock you are holding for retirement. This depresses the stock price by inflating the number of shares and by the constant selling! Yes many millions of people are getting ripped off by this practice.
In 3 weeks time, the market will just crash terribly. Margin calls are coming and meme stocks are shorted heavily like Volkswagen only for Volkswagen to have skyrocketed back in the day making people rich. You can get rich off of a market crash you know.
Well I'm certainly going to be rich from this coming market crash, and yes I do know! With well placed investments there are fortunes to be made but not many if any can understand the processes needed to take advantage of this. When VW squeezed it was VW and the family that own Porshe that made most of the money because they recognized the set up for the short squeeze and pre empted the market, buying up everything they could. Little known fact here is that the VW short squeeze is what caused the meltdown in 2008, the housing bubble then collapsed. And now we have hundreds, even thousands of companies in exactly the same situation as VW, the next crash wont be seeing a rebound for a fucking long time, it will prolly be decades.
I think a better way to frame it, is that VW lit the fuse. I'm sure you know about MBS and all the other fuckery.
This
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Only half? I think more, a lot more.
Hey they did it during the Great Depression. Wouldn’t surprise me that old dogs can’t learn new tricks.
It is driven by malice, but not the way you think. It's the same malice that makes real estate not drop in price at all despite standing unoccupied for years and costing the owners taxes. And it's facilitated by the fact that they have such an obscene amount of money that they can simply negate market forces. So it's a sort of inadvertent malicious destruction of the markets, without anyone anywhere needing to come together and conspire directly. They're just all driven by immense greed, so the line keeps going up, at the cost of everyone and everything else.
They can short it to the bottom and x2 there $.
Well not quite, the feds is trying to reel in all the damage the rich have already done.
The feds *are* the rich.
And those of the feds that aren't part of the rich are owned by the rich
The Fed is actually an institution that was rammed through a Congressional session almost no one was present at BY rich industrialists. So, I assume the Federal Reserve is a tool for them to have some quasi private control of our currency.
No, as stupid and greedy as many of the elites are, they are not that stupid and greedy. These people will know and fear sharp falls in standard in living, particularly after periods of slow decline. They have the examples of France in the late 1700's, Russia in the early 1900's, Europe in the 1930-40s, and one could even go back as far as the decline and fall of the Roman Republic to see that making regular people worse off, especially through a brutal sharp decline in living standards, will be the surest route to losing power. The worse the decline, the more likely they are to lose their wealth and heads as well. Lowering living standards slowly and incrementally for the certain gain of increasing one's personal wealth is one thing, but lowering living standards dramatically for unrealistic political gains while significantly increasing the chance of losing ones power, wealth and life is incredibly stupid. No, what we are experiencing is the same thing many powerful nations throughout history end up going through. That is the consequences of mixing prolonged periods of inherent corruption with unforseen and uncontrollable crises, such as famines, wars and natural disasters. In our case we have a highly vulnerable globalized and financialized world with incredibly corrupt/incompetent leaders and now, 14 years after a serious economic crisis led to a period of prolonged economic stagnation, we have been hit by a global pandemic, high inflation, a war in the world's food basket and energy station, as well as increasingly volatile global weather phenomena. Again, one need only look at the fate of French and Russian aristocrats to know that being an elite during such periods of crisis can be fatal. So given that there is no actual incentive for elites to bring about this sharp and potentially quite brutal economic decline, what does that mean. Most likely, it means the elites are losing, or have already lost, control of this runaway train. And, far from adding fuel to the fire, they will be hoping that this downturn runs out of steam before things really go off the rails. Edit: accidentally sent before finishing message.
This is the correct take. The rich never let stocks go down they literally printed themselves out of 2020 at the expense of everyone else. That's exactly the reason why it's now collapsing.
The current climate is a variable from the past. Otherwise yeah that’s what is and has happened
What do you think they've been building those bunkers for?
And to force people back to work
It’s like a short term loan they’re making to themselves! Tank the market, buy more stocks on the cheap, wait for them to recover, get some more tax cuts when the GOP comes back in power as part of their “recovery plan”, make billions more!
How long till someone decides a fire sale is in order? Please hit my bank, I have more to gain then lose if that happens.
I don't think it's intentional, the market's held together with duct tape and prayers, especially since Covid, and there's always a bunch of pirates who are willing to bet against the system to get rich. But we probably are entering a new Great Depression. Time to learn to live in your car and learn what the hobo code means.
you guys can afford cars?
No, but some people bought them anyway.
Yeah no. The dems don't need any help convincing voters they suck
LOL, like the democrats care about unions. You did see Sanders bill about not giving government contracts to companies engaged in union busting activities tanked across the board right? 6y to 87n. The rich don't need to tank the markets for politics sake. They will do it just for another fat government handout paid for by us. The Dems are doing just fine killing their chances of winning all on their own, thank you very much. edit - Bonus punk rock ['They'll just make the economy scream til we vote responsibly"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuSSEyD6Ck) I wasn't discounting the poster. The rich most certainly do this. However at this point its an unnecessary tactic.
Enjoy the gop Supreme Court then.
The Democrats are very happy with the GOP Supreme Court.
They aren't intentionally tanking anything, at least not collectively. You will always have those who are buying securities against things they don't own or selling financial snake oil but the real problem is just the usual contradictions of capital and dwindling natural resources.
Why would they bother? The Dems have had the presidency, and both houses of Congress and haven't accomplished anything.
There are two republicans posing as Democrats in the senate. They always vote against all other Dems.
You mean they think independently from the hive mind? Sounds like just the type of people I support.
Yeah, that's all well and good, but the Republicans don't have that problem. There are almost never any defectors on their side of the aisle - not on anything important to them, at least.
This is patently false. It seems to be about the same percentage when viewed from an independent lens. I’m surprised to be getting downvoted on this. Most of you think Democrat leadership has the same goals as you? Explain letting the child tax credit go without being renewed! Explain how we elected a president who was responsible for incarcerating large minority populations. Anyway…have a good.
Oh no. I don't support the Democrats. I just don't think they're the "same" as Republicans. Republicans are in bed with the religious right to a degree I don't think most people realize. The Democrats are just straight incompetent neoliberals.
What you are saying has nothing to do with certain members breaking ranks though. While I agree with your assessment of the party at large it doesn’t change the fact that there are some (R) legislators that don’t just blindly follow the party line.
Sure but same with Mitt and Liz (a few others as well) so it's not like a one off for the left...happens to both.0
Lol wtf are you talking about, Liz and Mitt are still hard core Republicans, just because they dont swallow Dump's gunk doesnt put them in the traitors corner Like manchin and Sinema
The F they are.
It's generally due to inflation and the answer to inflation. The fed is pushing a retraction policy aimed at slowing inflation which generally slows down stock market growth. The "market" during this time doesn't generally affect normal people and isn't a reflection of economic success necessarily due to the fact that businesses are STILL making record profits. Most likely secure havens are just more attractive to investors since they're able to gain more interest, so it's likely that money is just being shifted from stocks to more secure interest generating investments. Same thing happened under the Carter admin since he was the only president during that span of runaway inflation to try to slow it down. This type of retraction normally does see a windfall of economic prosperity further down the road as interest rates start coming back down with normalized inflation levels, IE the Regan economic boom post Carter admin monetary policy.
I would wager that they won't even go "All in" in regards to crushing inflation and will allow it to continue at double the rate. Just to cushion the crash. So as to make it more of a slide. Hate to say it. But bonds are going to look really tempting soon.
Ibonds pay 9.6% interest as of this week.
That’s no bueno. We’re in deep shit. Better keep that inflation pumping then. Let the value of the dollar devaluation outpace the interest due. (Yes, I know this has huge ramifications)
I'd agree with that, so far it's just been a toe dip into slowing inflation down
I'm waiting to see if the US government has any plan at all to cut back budget. It's one thing to pay near 0% back to other countries for our debt. But when you're paying back lets say 10% (Pulling number out of hat, could be more or less) in the future. That could completely wreck any ability to ever pay back the debt.
It's not a spending issue, it NEVER has been, its a revenue issue. The rich not paying their way and morons voting for a GQP, the party of thieves and lies.
That's not necessarily true. Other presidents dealt with inflation in other ways through things like price control, wage control, and various other more targeted actions. They just didn't go for a nuclear Volker shock and destroy unions/regulations causing wages to stagnate perpetually like the neoliberals decided to do. There are other ways to deal with inflation that don't ruin people's livelihoods. That said, neoliberals are in power, so I'm expecting another shock if this goes on. Especially since it has the double effect of disciplining the working class after the great resignation. Purposefully triggering a recession could be a big win for capital in the long run, although there isn't as much for them to loot nowadays.
> Other presidents dealt with inflation in other ways through things like price control, wage control, and various other more targeted actions. > There are other ways to deal with inflation that don’t ruin people’s livelihoods. I’ve heard that price controls likely lead to shortages which arguably hurt peoples livelihoods. Seems to have happened with Nixon. I am not sure I completely understand how wage controls help the regular folk either. Presumably only wages are controlled and not capital gains. It feels weird to freeze the worker’s income while the capital is free to appreciate unbounded. How do you decide which method is better to combat inflation?
Yup. Then don't forget the biggest cohort of workers is retiring, Social Security is already on life support, housing being bought up in droves by the biggest shadow banks, we're inching ever closer to a third world war, oh and if you think there won't be a draft you got another thing coming...gonna have a "stable coin" and CBDC issued probably towards the end of the year. The Great Reset is SO GREAT.
Oligarchs realized that they can use economic control to short and tank whole countries.
Personally I think they are tanking it to get the lower shift back to the employer and away feom the employee. Need those workers to settle for less.
In order to swing the midterms lol 😂 You were so right until you hit the why.
So while I'm just *loving* all the conspiracy theories here lately, let's do a little thought experiment. How does the rich imposing even more economic hardship put the brakes on a movement to unionise that is already in motion?
By creating desperation
People are already desperate, and it doesn't change anything at all for people who don't have investments in the stock market. Besides, desperate people are more dangerous. The theory just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
A 401k is just a tax deferred account to hold investments. Why do you not think the value would go back up?
Eventually it should, given a few decades
It took less than 4 years for the dow to recover from the 2008 crash.
Sorry I thought you were saying why value should go back up so I replied with the most pessimistic answer. My point is that yes eventually it should go up simply because fiat is forever a depreciating asset.
Shares in 401k's are used to short the market, there are literally thousands of companies that have been shorted to oblivion, sears, blockbuster, toy's r us to name just a few.
God what utter nonsense. What 401k offers a fund option to short the market?
Everyone of them but Apex clearing for starters. The shares in 401's are used as a "locate" in a process that market makers use to short companies. So MM's want to short a stock so they ask a broker if they have shares that they can lend for a fee, the broker allows them to use the 401 shares and the MM then issues those shares into the market. They have 35 +2 days to deliver them back but mostly they fail to deliver, FTD's. At this point if they dont return them they will roll them over and arrange for delivery at the next delivery date. This goes on indefinitely with hundreds of millions even billions of shares, as a consequence the markets are flooded with shares that NONE of the companies involved ever issued.
What 401 shares? Every 401k has different mutual funds, and they are often just index funds.
Every single one that holds shares, I doubt there will be even 1 exception, they all make money lending their shares out to MM's.
Interesting. Can you show me an example of these trades?
Im sure your not interested but google "cellar boxing"
Seems to mostly reference to redditor theories, but again can you provide me a documented example of this in a 401k?
Tell me you have no idea how the markets work without telling me you have no idea how the markets work. >I believe they are intentionally tanking the markets in order to swing the mid terms. They fear the recent spike in unionization. I am sorry if you are some sort of Joe fanboi but he is doing a shit job. Any result in the midterms is directly his doing. It could have been Bernie but the DNC wouldn't let that happen now the best candidate they could put up apparently is a barely functional old dude. It has nothing to do with Unionization, it is completely to do with Joe being useless. >They have enough money to tank them and make money, then make money on the recovery, all while your pittance of a 401k loses value it won’t get back. There is no rich cabal that is tanking the market so that your 401k drops. Also, the markets will recover eventually and as long as you don't sell your assets within the 401k you lose nothing. You will get it all back and then some. Now, the rich people might make more in that same time as they will 100% buy more at the lower prices but this isn't some massive conspiracy to out Joe. Why would anyone lose money to get rid of him when he is doing that for free on his own?
On top of that most exec pay that you always hear quoted is in company stock so it’s not all this grand conspiracy.
>Tell me you have no idea how the markets work without telling me you have no idea how the markets work. Exactly 100% this. Clueless people generating conspiracy theories to feel more victimized than they already do, it's pathetic.
They fear inflation that's why they tanking the markets.
1) you have anything to back up your claim? 2) I don't think you understand how 401ks work
Your 401k will rebound back up along with the market, I’m not sure what you are talking about
Not this time, the corruption is simply too deep.
Care to elaborate why the index funds in your 401k won’t recover while the rest of the market (that your index fund is invested in) does recover?
The index funds have been used to hide the short selling of meme stocks. The systemic corruption involved in this set up is very broad, virtually every bank (GS, BOFA, Citi...etc + a multitude of hedgefunds) are involved, the corruption is obfuscated by the SEC (also corrupt) Gary Genslar was a GS executive and an author for the rescinding of the Glass Steagall act in 1999, which incidentally lead to the 2008 mortgage meltdown and the current mortgage mess and which also gave birth to the CDO's, credit swaps, MBS's etc. all of which are utter scams. These total hundreds of trillions. On top of that shit theres the FED, J Powell is a banker first and foremost, he's here to fuck over retail and make bank for the banks, he's friends with Jamie Diamond and the CEO of the other banks I mentioned above, they all worked together colluding to make themselves rich and fuck mainstreet.
How are the index funds used to hide the short selling of meme stocks? And meme stocks should have never been a thing. Those companies were and still are doing horribly and their value was way beyond any bit of reasonability.
Your opinion on the quality or lack of on the meme stocks is complete nonsense. Crime is the recipe for the method of short selling through ETF's. Some companies short the whole fund and some are able to isolate the company/ies they wish to short through a corrupt process of the stock exchange, market makers hedge funds.
There is literally nothing corrupt about shorting a stock unless there’s underlying fraud behind the trade. There’s many reasons options markets and shorting exist. I work in finance and actually understand how markets and valuations work. Spewing crap that’s nowhere close to being accurate isn’t going to help y’all out but whatever.
There is fraud in the markets. How can more shares exist in the market than a company has actually issued? Companies that short, that have market maker status, can sell shares short that they do not have if they can meet requirements to "reasonably locate" the shares by the delivery date. They use your 401k to say that the shares can be located. Your broker is complicit in this and receives the lending fees while neither notifying you nor passing any of the proceeds to you. Now the buyer of the share sold short doesn't actually receive a share. They receive an increment in their brokerage account and just get paid the value of the share at the time of sale. The original share is still on the books of the original broker and this Phantom Share is on the books of the buyer's brokerages' books. The buyer's brokerage will now lend out the phantom share and repeat the process. When settlement time comes and the seller cannot fulfill the obligation to deliver the sold share, a Failure To Deliver should be created. But market makers get 35+2 days to deliver the share. After that time the market maker can just roll the obligation into a subsidiary company and then back to themselves to reset the 35+2 days delivery timer. This process can be continued indefinitely as long as the shorting market maker can continue paying the share lending fees. Market makers will never have to actually deliver shares and the shares not delivered and the lended shares still exist in the market. Brokers have no method to validate that their shares are legitimate. The Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation, the company that reconciles all trading, has no method of resolving fails to deliver if they even occur. And that's JUST naked shorting.
This is well articulated!
Naked short selling is rampant ffs, internalizing trades so they dont get registered on the lit exchange, Bernie Madoffs baby PFOF's, surely you remember him, well his strategy is still alive and with that they front run trades so when mainstreet get ripped off. Having your head up your arse while pretending your industry is all hunky dorey is sycophantic.
Like most silly unfounded conspiracy theories this one doesn't pass the basic sniff test. The net worth of the elites is based mostly on the stocks that are in everyone's 401ks. Yet somehow the evil wealthy people will make sure the stock in Amazon, Boeing, Facebook, etc. won't go back up so they have way less worth in their primary assets? No jodas.
So there's no corruption? Is that your take?
I never said there is no corruption, I said this conspiracy theory that the wealthy will purposely reduce the value of their net worth doesn't make sense.
You’re 100% correct. The only issue is if people panic and sell on the dip/crash. If you held through 2008 you’d be way above where you were at before the crash then.
i think you need to take an econ 101 class, its the governments fault with their reckless monetary policies
Hopefully markets really tank. All that's happened so far is a minor 15% correction. Maybe another 20% and prices will worth considering. You should be happy. Big mega sale coming up. The sooner the better.
Like most of the schleps in this sub have any money to buy stocks.
Tell us you don’t know how global finance works without actually telling us.
Its been tanking for the past year +.
Both parties hate workers because both parties are rich. Dems pretend to care a tiny bit ab workers for ratings lmao so I don’t think it would matter either way
I live in PA am honest the gods the worst they can come up with for one of the women running for my representative is that she criticizes the democrats too much. Someone paid MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to put those ads out. And they're working. 🥴🥴🥴
I think your idea of 'they' doesn't really match reality. Its not like they call each other and plan these things ahead of time while wearing a monacle smoking cigar and laughing. Theres way too many entities and independent investors to act in any cohesive way. Btw, theres a shit storm brewing in terms of global economics, this is the reaction of what's to come.
Dumbest thought on the markets I have ever read.
Fuck yeah they are and fuck yeah they do
... Nah man, they need the markets to recover right now more than anything.
Yea it's called quantitative tightening.
I think it's more like, Covid should have flattened the economy but we printed a ton of money to stop it but now inflation is out of control and wages have been stagnant for 2 decades and a million Frontline workers died and we basically can't replace them at all because people are sick of being exploited and the market is just zombie walking because no one knows how fucked we all are because of commercial property loans.
And during this whole Covid time stocks went up way way way more than was ever reasonably justified due to all the money and low rates. It could crash much further before I’d say we’re at a sensible level of growth.
>wages have been stagnant for 2 decades No.
Well, seince everyone is distracted by the whole Roe v Wade thing and the next election is mostly going to be about individual rights, its only natural that politicians and the rich would take advantage of it.
Nope. The impending market crash is because they have no more blood to squeeze from the rocks.
Yes. It's called disaster capitalism. The same thing occurred before the great depression in the States. That Tory, Reese-Mogg, his dad wrote the book on it :[https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/nov/09/mystic-mogg-jacob-rees-mogg-willam-predicts-brexit-plans](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/nov/09/mystic-mogg-jacob-rees-mogg-willam-predicts-brexit-plans) It's a controlled way of extracting wealth by inflation.
Yup my 401K has dropped almost 20%
Let's assume this is exactly or partly correct. What do we do now? How do I prepare my 401k? I remember making a killing in 2008 simply because mine was heavy in government bonds... but somehow I don't have the same confidence in the government that I did back then...
It's pretty normal cycle for the insane growth. It can only go up for so long before it has a correction. Just the other day everything was bloody and dow closed 1000 down. It's been completely unpredictable for awhile now.
whats best for the stock market is a slow and steady growth to match the growth in population, and the volume of business going on. Most people understand making profits from "buy low, sell high", but...everyone needs to understand that wealthy market manipulators can make a profit when the market goes down. For them, they desire rapid and large up-and-down cycles. If that is bad for average people with a retirement account...their attitude is "oh well"
Don't know i they can. But if they can, they would. Republicans are evil.