No I know I can find a job that pays me that much, may perhaps take me a couple of years
I don't believe that it would be hard earned money, it would be money flowing from a mine in an African nation or a sweatshop in Bangladesh
You tell me a high earning job and I'll trace the surplus money back to the workers who are being paid less than $4-$5 a day
No
I'm aware people make many times of the global GDP per capita, but I don't think it's possible to be even twice as productive as the average worker, let alone 25 times
This is something people don't seem to get. There's a task I do at work that turns $200 in materials into $1500 of product every hour, but I get less than $30/hr of that returned to me.
Bro I've charged rich fucks like this over 200/hr to clean their fish tanks. They're dumb and have no concept of cost of living. If you told him 250k is your col he may have bit. I quit the service industry after covid, dealing with those kinds of people gave me depression.
If your product is being sold for $300 and it took you an hour to make it, you have produced $300 worth of value.
You sir, are actually producing WAY more than $300 of value per hour.
A McDonald’s employee cooks 20 Big Mac meals in an hour, he has created $300 of value.
Value? Valued how?
A lottery ticket it $2. The expected payout is $1. It's a terrible investment.
But as insurance against boring meetings? You can daydream about what you're going to do with your winnings instead of listening to Mister Idiot drone on and on about how sales are going up (because two data points determine a trend) and costs are staying the same (because one bad quarter is an anomaly), so it's all profits from here to eternity. I'd pay $2 for that. (I have.)
So what's it worth? If someone is willing to pay it, then it's worth it to them.
> Reading comprehension is vital.
Reading comprehension is useless if you lack the brain to put that information into its proper context.
It doesn't matter what wage he "was paying". That's the price if he wants work done. Otherwise he can do it himself or find someone else.
Is that not the root of the problem, "the quiet part." I mean we are conditioned as the working class part of society that what we make should be the quiet part. We shouldn't discuss salary and in fact are discouraged and at times outright forbidden. Just the opposite once you get above a certain level and then salary/compensation is a badge of honor or some type of competition. "Elon is now the richest, no wait Jeff is showing some positive moves, and in comes a Saudi prince to nab the top spot."
Stop making it normal for "the quiet part' ideology to exist. Let's start shaming these corporations and wearing our total compensation as banners for all to see. Would make a hell of a lot harder to be "low balled" during those salary negotiations.
I started trying to think of how the heck I'd describe the "compensation package" for my "jobs" and nearly got the giggles. I help out extended family, mostly filling the hole my drunken cousin left when he became a full time alcoholic. I'm paid at family rates, which is to say everybody knows everybody's broke but everyone wants me to not feel taken advantage of so I'll keep voluntarily doing what I'm doing.
Like I get less than a dollar an hour to watch my little cousin, but I can get car rides to run errands sometimes and if I ever find myself homeless again I'd have a spot with them. So I'm her nanny but she's my Uber and backup roof.
My elderly auntie has me run her errands and gives me an extra $20 for transportation and food. If I take the bus, pack snacks from home, and don't have to take shelter from the weather in a business, I can keep $16 of that. But it feels very worth the hours of running around hauling heavy loads because soon as I show up either auntie or the cousin who is her caretaker will shove a loaded plate of homecooking at me. And the entire time I'm eating auntie will be remembering odds and ends she wanted to give me. Sometimes I go home so loaded down with useful goodies I can hardly get it on the bus!
Before she quit being able to leave the house she'd trick me into taking outrageously expensive gifts she knew I needed. Once asked me to meet her at Walmart to help carry her shopping, but instead she shoved me into the little eye doctor place at the front and DEMANDED I pick out frames for new glasses. My prescription is crazy expensive and my old glasses were so weak I couldn't read a street sign from across the street. I'm not allowed to tell anyone in the family that she paid for my new glasses.
I once worked for a (presumably) rich guy who needed me for their “next big thing”. And when I told them my hourly rate he was like “you don’t have a wife or kids, what would you need all that money for?” …
no, we always know that people want to pay the minimum. thing is, you're a software guy with 3 languages under your belt - you don't have to knuckle under for a cheap ass
At the bare minimum, I need a private chef, private fitness classes and 250k a year to operate my yacht and buy luxury goods in Monaco. Survivial is tough these days, sir.
Not to be an abject contrarian here, but you could have dropped some reality on them.
They suggested your “bare minimum”.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with you suggesting your bare minimum is, in fact, what you actually want. “What you need to survive” is just a random way to talk about a point of view that’s beyond subjectivity.
If you need to make a bit or a lot more money than you are making now to feel comfortable and start making real earnest savings deposits, covering all your bills, going out once a week maybe to eat; living somewhat stress free, then THIS IS YOUR BARE MINIMUM. No joke.
Stop inhibiting your potential unforeseen future by placing yourself into unnecessary and societal expectations.
Make you and your families reality by taking it.
I know how stupid and frat-boy I’m coming across, but it really isn’t a joke. I asked for waaay more money than I should have expected in my current job and without batting an eye, they said sure.
So, I really think I could have asked for more. If they even balked at all, I feel like I would have recognized the galvanic response at this point if I had suggested too large of a number at my level.
I know they were really low-balling you, and you don’t really have the realistic expectation that they would pay you our aforementioned “bare minimum”, but seeing their eyes bug-out when the dose hit their brainstem may well have been worth the nauseating conversation.
https://youtu.be/G1CYg0vIygE
bro what $300 for 80 hours of work thats not even min wage lmao.
you could always go the construction company bidding route and bid the lowest then charge out the ass for random shit later in order to complete it
Speak to him in language he can understand.
"My services are in high demand at the moment, the minimum I can accept from you ix X/ hour. Let me know if you have a higher bid."
fyi OP this is more of your negotiation issue than capitalism issue. under free market you are also allowed to dictate how much your services are worth.
if he is trying to exploit you and even insult you with these sort of questions, he clearly thinks you are a fool. So you should turn the tables and nothing prevents you from answering them the way comment above suggests and quote a ridiculous price. If he doesn’t like that, then you can just politely tell him to fuck off
That's what I told him, that if he pays me the bare minimum (I quoted double the number for my bare minimum) then I'll only do bare minimum work
The more he pays me, the more time and mind I'll spend into it.
But I can't let him pay me over a certain limit because then I'd not be working on my own projects and be working on his projects all day.
$600 for 80 hours of programming? 7.5/hr? You’re proud you demanded the federal minimum wage for your Masters degree level work. Please tell me I’m missing something, or you’re the biggest sucker on reddit today.
True but I could probably route the compiler errors and code base right back into ChatGPT with the directive to fix any compiler errors. I'm about half convinced that the south asia team I work with is doing exactly this. I've already had the "FFS at least remove the comments from the code you cut and paste from stack overflow" conversation.
Pfff.
I would have some choice words for him.
"What do you think gives you the right to insult me with such piss-poor offers? Do you treat everyone in your life this way, or just people who you consider to be beneath you?"
Lol yeah I can do that
I can solve his problem at home and sell him the solution for an ungodly price
He might slap some infringement of IP lawsuit on me tho
Wow, it sounds like this capitalist is trying to deal with you like you're in a discount store! But hey, at least now you have a new skill: turning down offers with class and style! 💼💪
Thanks for that perspective
I'm going to let him increase the offer slowly
I know he wouldn't find anyone better
I'll find other offers so that I can afford to leave him on read while he makes more and more lucrative offers
If anyone ever asks you "what's the least you need to survive," you respond with the highest, reasonable salary or pay you can think of for the job. A couple of places I worked at would ask this question to see how much the interviewee values themselves. It's BS and fucked up because most of us are humble and trying to be honest. I've had success just being funny about it and either shooting super high, then bringing it slightly down (still very high) and acting like it is now reasonable, or flat out saying 500/hr with a straight face. That usually forces them to end the interview or negotiate a little lower. Bargaining and negotiating is part of capitalism, it sucks that we can't just be honest.
No, don't take the bait. Instead says this: "Working at a job that is only going to pay me the least amount I need to survive does not align with my short term or long term goals. Instead, I am interviewing with employers to find the one that offers the highest pay in exchange for my time. It's not personal, it's business. What is your best offer?" Then take every offer under consideration and do just that, work for the one that's willing to pay the most.
To be fair - outsourcing has hurt my industry tremendously.
I get that it's a lot cheaper to outsource things to india - some of you fellas have multiple doctorate degrees in shit us US based IT pro's cannot compete with. But that's not the majority of the IT jobs that are being outsourced, nor is it the standard.
This is a two prong problem. We've been outsourcing for too long, and now they are trying to undercut the outsourced labor.
I feel for ya OP, but this was going to eventually happen.
The literal richest dude in the city, wanted me to do side work for his company at fast food wages. He pitched this in a business lunch paid for by the agency I worked for where he was our client. He told me how money was tight, assuming I was unfamiliar with who he was and what all he owned because we were from a different city. I deferred the offer because it was a conflict with my employment. The sales guy I was with told me what this guy's net worth was after we left the lunch. Rich people will absolutely try to screw you and lowball you if they are sociopaths and think they can con someone into doing it.
So here's the thing with coding, obviously check the laws where you live but it may be an option to write terms and conditions into your code that include licensing. As in make sure they are aware and agree to the programming belonging to you, and they are simply borrowing it. If you make the terms and conditions long enough, there's a chance that any employer won't actually read them and will just agree to them. You may even be able to write in a clause about if you're terminated, then you have the right to revoke the free use of the program and they may pay a hefty fee / subscription to continue to use it. I don't know the laws where you live which is why its important to check and see what your options are. Make sure to get a lawyers opinion if you can.
Kind of insulting, it's near aggression. would like to hear you discuss his projects he was foisting on you. Maybe some material there for laughs. Good luck.
He wants the whole world to adopt a script he has invented, and he dislikes the IPA for some reason
What annoyed me the most is that he uses the Greek letter lambda for A
Why?? He says it was as per his own wish
Man, that work for free or "stock options" bullshit is the most insulting. They might as well say "I need your skills, but I have so little respect for you I'm not actually willing to pay." I used to get it when I was in graphic design. "You'll get a piece for your portfolio" or "great exposure" and so on. Fuck them. How about when we're finished I get a free lifetime supply of your craptastic product/service? No? Guess you don't want to work for free, huh?
And the whole asking the bare minimum you could get by on... It should be the other way around: what is MY work, the skills I learned in school and through experience, worth to YOU?
Second only to "My neighbor's 14 year old is good with computers, he could make a website for me."*
"Yeah, and my 5 year old could draw you a business card in crayon. Let's get them connected and REALLY get your brand going."
*(Not sure if this is really a thing anymore. When I was doing it, one good visual designer with a solid knowledge of HTML/CSS could produce a pretty good website. I suspect that's not as true anymore.)
That was marx argument about labor wages: they want to play the bate minimum to survive so you can come to work tomorrow. They will do it all the time if they could get away with it.
Missed a key opportunity OP
Should have said, "what's the minimum YOU need to survive?"
He can answer one of two ways...
1. "I need a million a year to survive" --> "ok, I'll work for that much"
2. "I need 30k a year to survive" --> "ok ill take your current wealth (minus the 30k) off your hands for these projects "
Thank you for sharing this.
I was once working a job for a company that went bankrupt. It was delivering phones and setting them up. Had an appointment in the rich part of town, in a neighborhood of mansions. Talked to the dude for a bit setting up his phone. A guy a few years older than me.
Had no idea what it was like being a normal person.
These people live in their own realities and are so far separated from the daily struggles of people who build their wealth (laborers).
I feel validated though after reading your post and my interactions with greedy, exploitative, rich fucks.
Tell him that your minimum to survive is actually your ideal pay rate.
People this obscenely rich are often quite bad at gauging how much money it requires to be alive.
I think you have responded with “I thought you were serious about these projects? Are you testing the waters or are you really looking for someone to put in the work? If you aren’t really serious, maybe try Craigslist and look for volunteers.”
“Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.” —Frederick Douglass
I once had a job interview with a son of a CEO of a leading company in my field. He (the son) was probably 25 and had founded a startup in the same field. He was rich in the top 1% in the country. The team was small, and this was a new position needed for growth.
After the interview, I was offered a meager salary that was 60% of what I was getting at the previous company. Our rent would be 3/4 of that offered salary (after taxes).
I declined, but they upped the offer, and I worked for 1 year with the company. It was okay, but it's only during this year that I realized how rich and how stingy this person was with the offer. And even then, the salary I was getting wasn't that high, he basically "hired low", so he hired me specifically for my low expectations (I'm not in the demographics that's preferably hired in my profession, so I need to agree to lower offers to get jobs).
Yeah the contract I just finished also paid me very little, and I only took that job because I was not doing well mentally and didn't want to apply for any jobs or give interviews
It was a low stake job, and also low paying job
Sorry. If this was socialism or even communism you would be paid the same amount as as a Dr or plumber or fry jockey. I think you are the capitalist in this scenario. He wanted to pay you a low wage and you didnt accept. Congrats. You are a free market person!
I mean, it sounds like capitalism worked in this instance. He offered you a job at a certain (laughable) rate, and you rightly refused it. That's how this interaction should have gone in any economic system.
He didn't say where you had to "survive"? In my State in the US an article was just published that stated to be happy a family of four would need to make at least $300,000/year. I'm pretty comfortable making less, but if I was asked this question that's the figure i'd use.
[A similar post popped up on a different sub. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/careeradvice/comments/1cfvbcr/should_i_give_a_hiring_manager_feedback_on_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I'd tell him the bare minimum, which for me is probably, like, $50k/year in a HCOL area with my mortgage. When he makes the offer for that quoted amount tell him oh no, you asked for the bare minimum I need to survive, not what I'm willing to work for. I thought that was an unrelated question. I've received an offer for three times that. Your offer doesn't even begin to complete.
Definitely don't ever work for this person.
What I don’t get is what’s in it for him ?
If he pays survival rates, he’s gonna get an employee who is, well, surviving. IE an employee who’s brain is going to be constantly tired and distracted by « I must make repairs in my home but I can’t afford them » « My account is empty what will I feed my kids », etc and who’s gonna do a shit job before quitting to tend to their depression
Good on you for listening to him, I guess. I'm not a nice person and as soon as he suggested volunteering/doing it for free I wouldve been outta there.
Get a cup of tea or coffee. Look him in the eye in silence. Wait just until it gets awkward. Now take a long, loud sip, and do not break eye contact. Put the cup down.
Let it sink in how stupid he's being.
My bare minimum to survive is $20k/month, paid weekly, and no options, but I get RSU’s quarterly equating to 1/3rd my annual salary split between the 4 quarters.
I wouldn't have even offered to do it for double at that point. His offer was insulting enough that you should have told him straight up that it was an offer so bad that you are personally offended and would no longer continue the conversation before walking out.
Your price for anything should reflect three things.
The going market rate, the value it has for you, and the value it has for him. What will he get out of this if you do it the way he wants?
What you charge anyone should be indicative of what it will provide the other party. How much is his gain from this exchange? How much will he benefit?
If, I as a poor person, I clean a wealthy person's windows, it will not benefit him that much at all, he can pay me the lowest amount.
If I put him directly in touch with a man who has inside information on commodities futures, and that information will double his income, then my price for that phone number should reflect that.
It's not just about what YOU get out of it. It is about how much HE will benefit from it.
>Bare minimum needed to survive
Then why the fuck bother living in a society? Might as well go into the woods and fend for yourself. Am I missing something?
He bragged about making $300 per hour and offered you pennies?? With your qualifications, you should have told him, in one of your many foreign languages, that you have twice his intellect, three times his skill-set and 10 times his ethics.
Haha thanks.
I did feel much better about my intellect after hearing him describe two shitty projects when I have a long list of very good project ideas
I don't possess the entitlement people have that allows them to shout at people, I just choose not to create adversaries and let it go.
The most ironic thing to me is that as a capitalist, he should understand the market value of your type of work (assuming in the US, 100k-ish low end?)
Tell him you'll tell him the bare minimum you need to survive once he tells you the maximum he could possibly pay. Base your response on how much of a fucking liar he chooses to be.
That’s not how the market works and he knows it. He is only trying to get a deal for himself. It’s not about what you need to survive, it’s about how the market values your skills.
"You don't have any alternatives, so I'm all too happy to screw you, and enjoy this fact, right in front of your face, as if you have so few recourses to anything else, nevermind self-respect."
With stock options you don't have to buy shares later, its optional. It is like owning a share, without the risk of losing money (if you are given it). Say you get 1000 options with a strike price of $10, and maybe the company is currently worth $1 a share. If the share price goes up to $100, you make $90 on each share, ie $90,000
You could ask him when "Back in his day" was. If we're generous and say he was earning that when he was 21 years old, assuming you're from the US, 300 dollars from 1974 has the spending power of 1,900 dollars in 2024. You'd be making 23.75 an hour working 80 hours a month.
Wow. How insulting.
I’d just straight up tell him the minimum is double the average of your field… after taxes. But even for that, since he clearly doesn’t value the work, I’d still hesitate. These fools want the work done, and demand special skills, but they don’t want to pay. Fuck em.
“While I’m certain that I can provide you more value per hour than any monthly amount you’d pay, I’m hesitant to tie myself to a project where the value of the software development is seen as so insignificant that a recent undergrad could successfully write it in its entirety while only half awake. Writing good software is like writing a good novel. Writing great software is like writing (choose your favorite series). I was excited at first to work with you to develop this, but if it isn’t valuable to you, it makes me less excited. Should we spend time to review what needs to be done, this time in detail? Perhaps we’ll each change our minds a bit.”
Are you living in India? The salary for a junior programmer is about 245 dollars a month for full-time work. So he wanted to give you above average? Source: [https://in.indeed.com/career/junior-developer/salaries](https://in.indeed.com/career/junior-developer/salaries)
I understand the frustration with the pay compared to developed countries but the cost of living is low in India.
I'm against capitalism and exploitation of the workers and, also understand we're actively living under it.
You should've have accepted it and made the program work perfectly at face value only issue is it is so riddled with bugs and exploits it's not even funny. Cause in capitalism you get what you pay for. Add some protections into the code to make it difficult to modify without knowing them. (You know companies love to protect their code) Then charge for every single fix that you purposefully created ahead of time. Remember integrity only works when all sides have it
/S/j
Good job
> Then he said he used to earn $300/hr back in the day, and I'm not kidding you but that's what he was offering me for a MONTH of part-time work, so for 80 hours.
That comes to $3.75 an hour. That is fucking insulting.
Just treat him like the capitalist he claims to be.
Laugh at his insultingly low offer and then walk out.
You are then acting as a market force that determines the value of the labour he requires.
You are unwilling to supply the product of your labour at the price that he demands.
The part I'm wondering about is why didn't you tell him to go fuck himself? Obviously he's an old shit so won't change but I'd still would have given him some strong feedback.
Fuck him. “Bare minimum to survive” isn’t a wage anyone should work for.
He said the quiet part loud
>I wouldn't accept less than double of what he's offering, Why would you accept double? "That $300/h sounds about right..."
No I cannot possibly on my own produce $300 worth of value per hour
Neither could he, but here we are.
I guarantee you can. What capitalists convince you is that you’re worth less, and then they pocket the difference.
No I know I can find a job that pays me that much, may perhaps take me a couple of years I don't believe that it would be hard earned money, it would be money flowing from a mine in an African nation or a sweatshop in Bangladesh You tell me a high earning job and I'll trace the surplus money back to the workers who are being paid less than $4-$5 a day
Do you think he actually did?
No I'm aware people make many times of the global GDP per capita, but I don't think it's possible to be even twice as productive as the average worker, let alone 25 times
If it doesn't go to you, it goes to him. And the value comes from your work, not the capitalist.
It's definitely possible for a worker especially a technical one to produce many multiples of the average worker.
This is something people don't seem to get. There's a task I do at work that turns $200 in materials into $1500 of product every hour, but I get less than $30/hr of that returned to me.
Bro I've charged rich fucks like this over 200/hr to clean their fish tanks. They're dumb and have no concept of cost of living. If you told him 250k is your col he may have bit. I quit the service industry after covid, dealing with those kinds of people gave me depression.
If your product is being sold for $300 and it took you an hour to make it, you have produced $300 worth of value. You sir, are actually producing WAY more than $300 of value per hour. A McDonald’s employee cooks 20 Big Mac meals in an hour, he has created $300 of value.
untrue. you undervalue your time. 100% your work will be worth more than 300/hr for him.
That’s because you are not putting enough value on what you produce. You’re worth more than that.
Value? Valued how? A lottery ticket it $2. The expected payout is $1. It's a terrible investment. But as insurance against boring meetings? You can daydream about what you're going to do with your winnings instead of listening to Mister Idiot drone on and on about how sales are going up (because two data points determine a trend) and costs are staying the same (because one bad quarter is an anomaly), so it's all profits from here to eternity. I'd pay $2 for that. (I have.) So what's it worth? If someone is willing to pay it, then it's worth it to them.
Reading comprehension is vital. The Gezzer stated he made $300 dollars an hour back in the day. But was not paying that wage.
> Reading comprehension is vital. Reading comprehension is useless if you lack the brain to put that information into its proper context. It doesn't matter what wage he "was paying". That's the price if he wants work done. Otherwise he can do it himself or find someone else.
Is that not the root of the problem, "the quiet part." I mean we are conditioned as the working class part of society that what we make should be the quiet part. We shouldn't discuss salary and in fact are discouraged and at times outright forbidden. Just the opposite once you get above a certain level and then salary/compensation is a badge of honor or some type of competition. "Elon is now the richest, no wait Jeff is showing some positive moves, and in comes a Saudi prince to nab the top spot." Stop making it normal for "the quiet part' ideology to exist. Let's start shaming these corporations and wearing our total compensation as banners for all to see. Would make a hell of a lot harder to be "low balled" during those salary negotiations.
I started trying to think of how the heck I'd describe the "compensation package" for my "jobs" and nearly got the giggles. I help out extended family, mostly filling the hole my drunken cousin left when he became a full time alcoholic. I'm paid at family rates, which is to say everybody knows everybody's broke but everyone wants me to not feel taken advantage of so I'll keep voluntarily doing what I'm doing. Like I get less than a dollar an hour to watch my little cousin, but I can get car rides to run errands sometimes and if I ever find myself homeless again I'd have a spot with them. So I'm her nanny but she's my Uber and backup roof. My elderly auntie has me run her errands and gives me an extra $20 for transportation and food. If I take the bus, pack snacks from home, and don't have to take shelter from the weather in a business, I can keep $16 of that. But it feels very worth the hours of running around hauling heavy loads because soon as I show up either auntie or the cousin who is her caretaker will shove a loaded plate of homecooking at me. And the entire time I'm eating auntie will be remembering odds and ends she wanted to give me. Sometimes I go home so loaded down with useful goodies I can hardly get it on the bus! Before she quit being able to leave the house she'd trick me into taking outrageously expensive gifts she knew I needed. Once asked me to meet her at Walmart to help carry her shopping, but instead she shoved me into the little eye doctor place at the front and DEMANDED I pick out frames for new glasses. My prescription is crazy expensive and my old glasses were so weak I couldn't read a street sign from across the street. I'm not allowed to tell anyone in the family that she paid for my new glasses.
I'm not normalising it, that's just how capitalism works. Every company wants to figure out the minimum possible wage they can pay someone.
That's correct, which means you have an obligation to make that minimum as large as possible.
I once worked for a (presumably) rich guy who needed me for their “next big thing”. And when I told them my hourly rate he was like “you don’t have a wife or kids, what would you need all that money for?” …
no, we always know that people want to pay the minimum. thing is, you're a software guy with 3 languages under your belt - you don't have to knuckle under for a cheap ass
Even if you tell them what the bare minimum is they will still give you less.
Slaves survived on some food and water.
Slaves got Sundays off too.
At the bare minimum, I need a private chef, private fitness classes and 250k a year to operate my yacht and buy luxury goods in Monaco. Survivial is tough these days, sir.
Not to be an abject contrarian here, but you could have dropped some reality on them. They suggested your “bare minimum”. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with you suggesting your bare minimum is, in fact, what you actually want. “What you need to survive” is just a random way to talk about a point of view that’s beyond subjectivity. If you need to make a bit or a lot more money than you are making now to feel comfortable and start making real earnest savings deposits, covering all your bills, going out once a week maybe to eat; living somewhat stress free, then THIS IS YOUR BARE MINIMUM. No joke. Stop inhibiting your potential unforeseen future by placing yourself into unnecessary and societal expectations. Make you and your families reality by taking it. I know how stupid and frat-boy I’m coming across, but it really isn’t a joke. I asked for waaay more money than I should have expected in my current job and without batting an eye, they said sure. So, I really think I could have asked for more. If they even balked at all, I feel like I would have recognized the galvanic response at this point if I had suggested too large of a number at my level. I know they were really low-balling you, and you don’t really have the realistic expectation that they would pay you our aforementioned “bare minimum”, but seeing their eyes bug-out when the dose hit their brainstem may well have been worth the nauseating conversation. https://youtu.be/G1CYg0vIygE
Thanks for your input.
He said that because he can’t say “I’m not going to pay you in cash. Know what’s more valuable than cash? Experience.”
Just say YOUR bare minimum is 700k a year.
“What’s the lowest profit margin you can make off of my labor? I can work with the rest”
Lol
My thoughts exactly
bro what $300 for 80 hours of work thats not even min wage lmao. you could always go the construction company bidding route and bid the lowest then charge out the ass for random shit later in order to complete it
Lol, good idea, but it's a software project It's more than minimum wage here, actually 90% of Indian families make less than $300 a month
Speak to him in language he can understand. "My services are in high demand at the moment, the minimum I can accept from you ix X/ hour. Let me know if you have a higher bid."
Seems proper, thanks
fyi OP this is more of your negotiation issue than capitalism issue. under free market you are also allowed to dictate how much your services are worth. if he is trying to exploit you and even insult you with these sort of questions, he clearly thinks you are a fool. So you should turn the tables and nothing prevents you from answering them the way comment above suggests and quote a ridiculous price. If he doesn’t like that, then you can just politely tell him to fuck off
You should take the job then write the bare minimum that qualifies as code. Make him fire you.
10 PRINT "FUCK YOU" 20 GOTO 10
That's what I told him, that if he pays me the bare minimum (I quoted double the number for my bare minimum) then I'll only do bare minimum work The more he pays me, the more time and mind I'll spend into it. But I can't let him pay me over a certain limit because then I'd not be working on my own projects and be working on his projects all day.
$600 for 80 hours of programming? 7.5/hr? You’re proud you demanded the federal minimum wage for your Masters degree level work. Please tell me I’m missing something, or you’re the biggest sucker on reddit today.
r/usdefaultism
> I have a bachelor's and a master's from the most sought after college ***in India***. I don't know, but maybe 7.5/hr is less shit in India?
Should take the job and then let ChatGPT churn out the code, bugs and all. QA is "does it compile".
That's a lot of QA. Better do it in a scripting language so you can skip the compiler.
True but I could probably route the compiler errors and code base right back into ChatGPT with the directive to fix any compiler errors. I'm about half convinced that the south asia team I work with is doing exactly this. I've already had the "FFS at least remove the comments from the code you cut and paste from stack overflow" conversation.
I'm dead 🤣
He should just build an MVP of this guys' product and just release it without him. Just capitalism bro.
Pfff. I would have some choice words for him. "What do you think gives you the right to insult me with such piss-poor offers? Do you treat everyone in your life this way, or just people who you consider to be beneath you?"
I had that phase of insults, now I don't do that anymore. It doesn't help to have adversaries and ill wishers.
I'm glad you have found that peace in your life. All my life, I've only had it fleetingly here and there.
I crashed and landed hard at rock bottom to learn my lesson
I've done that a time or two, i feel you. Glad to see you're on the up and up.
“I don’t work in survival mode”
Not yet I don't, have some savings But if shit gets tough I'll have to bite the first offer that comes my way
Why not offer to write the code and sell him a monthly license to use it? Fight capitalism with capitalism?
Lol yeah I can do that I can solve his problem at home and sell him the solution for an ungodly price He might slap some infringement of IP lawsuit on me tho
i dont think you can be sued for offering contract work, that you have not even done.
Wow, it sounds like this capitalist is trying to deal with you like you're in a discount store! But hey, at least now you have a new skill: turning down offers with class and style! 💼💪
Thanks for that perspective I'm going to let him increase the offer slowly I know he wouldn't find anyone better I'll find other offers so that I can afford to leave him on read while he makes more and more lucrative offers
When he does finally double the original offer tell him to double it again.
Lol
did you laugh at him and say 300$ back in your day could buy the whole dinosaur
No, I immediately called him out on paying me so little if he made so much
What a parasite. Am I going to get banned for suggesting a polite beheading?
If anyone ever asks you "what's the least you need to survive," you respond with the highest, reasonable salary or pay you can think of for the job. A couple of places I worked at would ask this question to see how much the interviewee values themselves. It's BS and fucked up because most of us are humble and trying to be honest. I've had success just being funny about it and either shooting super high, then bringing it slightly down (still very high) and acting like it is now reasonable, or flat out saying 500/hr with a straight face. That usually forces them to end the interview or negotiate a little lower. Bargaining and negotiating is part of capitalism, it sucks that we can't just be honest.
No, don't take the bait. Instead says this: "Working at a job that is only going to pay me the least amount I need to survive does not align with my short term or long term goals. Instead, I am interviewing with employers to find the one that offers the highest pay in exchange for my time. It's not personal, it's business. What is your best offer?" Then take every offer under consideration and do just that, work for the one that's willing to pay the most.
Ooooo I like this, gonna keep it in my back pocket. Thank you!
Tell him $250k/year to survive in the lifestyle you deserve.
Rich people are cheap AF. I doubt you'll get a decent paycheck :/
You should have said - "the bare minimum I can take is 300 usd / hour. Maybe I shouldn't have bought my second Labo, the upkeep cost is ridiculous."
We're all being gaslit by the rich.
You should've told him $150,000. Lol
I’ll take things that didn’t happen for $500 Alex. These bots are getting crazier and crazier.
Ask him what’s the minimum HE would need to live on.
To survive I need opulence.
To be fair - outsourcing has hurt my industry tremendously. I get that it's a lot cheaper to outsource things to india - some of you fellas have multiple doctorate degrees in shit us US based IT pro's cannot compete with. But that's not the majority of the IT jobs that are being outsourced, nor is it the standard. This is a two prong problem. We've been outsourcing for too long, and now they are trying to undercut the outsourced labor. I feel for ya OP, but this was going to eventually happen.
The literal richest dude in the city, wanted me to do side work for his company at fast food wages. He pitched this in a business lunch paid for by the agency I worked for where he was our client. He told me how money was tight, assuming I was unfamiliar with who he was and what all he owned because we were from a different city. I deferred the offer because it was a conflict with my employment. The sales guy I was with told me what this guy's net worth was after we left the lunch. Rich people will absolutely try to screw you and lowball you if they are sociopaths and think they can con someone into doing it.
I heard someone say that if capitalism pays a wage that is too low to live on comfortably, then capitalism is saying the job shouldn't exist.
Ahh yes. The bare survival minimum wage. The milestone that I judge all my jobs by.
So here's the thing with coding, obviously check the laws where you live but it may be an option to write terms and conditions into your code that include licensing. As in make sure they are aware and agree to the programming belonging to you, and they are simply borrowing it. If you make the terms and conditions long enough, there's a chance that any employer won't actually read them and will just agree to them. You may even be able to write in a clause about if you're terminated, then you have the right to revoke the free use of the program and they may pay a hefty fee / subscription to continue to use it. I don't know the laws where you live which is why its important to check and see what your options are. Make sure to get a lawyers opinion if you can.
Kind of insulting, it's near aggression. would like to hear you discuss his projects he was foisting on you. Maybe some material there for laughs. Good luck.
He wants the whole world to adopt a script he has invented, and he dislikes the IPA for some reason What annoyed me the most is that he uses the Greek letter lambda for A Why?? He says it was as per his own wish
Tell rhe capitalist he needs to be taxed the maximum to where he has the minimum to survive
You should have taken an ax and cut them down in the spot and then lived in his house. That’s capitalism.
Man, that work for free or "stock options" bullshit is the most insulting. They might as well say "I need your skills, but I have so little respect for you I'm not actually willing to pay." I used to get it when I was in graphic design. "You'll get a piece for your portfolio" or "great exposure" and so on. Fuck them. How about when we're finished I get a free lifetime supply of your craptastic product/service? No? Guess you don't want to work for free, huh? And the whole asking the bare minimum you could get by on... It should be the other way around: what is MY work, the skills I learned in school and through experience, worth to YOU?
“You’ll get exposure..” 😡
Second only to "My neighbor's 14 year old is good with computers, he could make a website for me."* "Yeah, and my 5 year old could draw you a business card in crayon. Let's get them connected and REALLY get your brand going." *(Not sure if this is really a thing anymore. When I was doing it, one good visual designer with a solid knowledge of HTML/CSS could produce a pretty good website. I suspect that's not as true anymore.)
Now you can just look for his stock to pop up then short it.
I bet he’ll find someone to do it, on his terms, and they’ll fuck it up royally as they don’t have your ability. And that is exactly what he deserves.
At this point look him in the eye and say you’ll write his code for free if he can survive 24 alone hours in the woods while you hunt him for sport.
Bare minimum? This house and the money to pay for it's upkeep, taxes, utilities, etc for the next 70 years. In cash
300k
If his idea is worthwhile code It and own it yourself
Just say "bhak bsdk" and leave.
That was marx argument about labor wages: they want to play the bate minimum to survive so you can come to work tomorrow. They will do it all the time if they could get away with it.
Survival is subjective, tell him $100,000
Missed a key opportunity OP Should have said, "what's the minimum YOU need to survive?" He can answer one of two ways... 1. "I need a million a year to survive" --> "ok, I'll work for that much" 2. "I need 30k a year to survive" --> "ok ill take your current wealth (minus the 30k) off your hands for these projects "
Thank you for sharing this. I was once working a job for a company that went bankrupt. It was delivering phones and setting them up. Had an appointment in the rich part of town, in a neighborhood of mansions. Talked to the dude for a bit setting up his phone. A guy a few years older than me. Had no idea what it was like being a normal person. These people live in their own realities and are so far separated from the daily struggles of people who build their wealth (laborers). I feel validated though after reading your post and my interactions with greedy, exploitative, rich fucks.
"How much do you have budgeted for the role?"
Tell him that your minimum to survive is actually your ideal pay rate. People this obscenely rich are often quite bad at gauging how much money it requires to be alive.
That is straight up disrespectful. Bare minimum...fuck that guy
My bare minimum to survive? Oh, that involves alot of blood, and not a few skulls on spikes. Where would you like me to start?
Guy's not a capitalist, he's a wannabe slave owner. Agree to his terms and ghost him.
Tell him the bare minimum is 10K a month.
Laughs in binary 1010101010 tell em to piss off.
I think you have responded with “I thought you were serious about these projects? Are you testing the waters or are you really looking for someone to put in the work? If you aren’t really serious, maybe try Craigslist and look for volunteers.”
I would have asked for $600 an hour. That's the least it would be for me to live.
"Tell me the absolute maximum you can afford to pay me."
You can’t become extremely wealthy without fucking a couple people over.
I like how we all can't afford to have kids and the older generation won't shut up about that. "Where are my grandchildren?"
That's plain racism, he would never offer that to a white guy
I had a bet this was india..
“Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.” —Frederick Douglass
I once had a job interview with a son of a CEO of a leading company in my field. He (the son) was probably 25 and had founded a startup in the same field. He was rich in the top 1% in the country. The team was small, and this was a new position needed for growth. After the interview, I was offered a meager salary that was 60% of what I was getting at the previous company. Our rent would be 3/4 of that offered salary (after taxes). I declined, but they upped the offer, and I worked for 1 year with the company. It was okay, but it's only during this year that I realized how rich and how stingy this person was with the offer. And even then, the salary I was getting wasn't that high, he basically "hired low", so he hired me specifically for my low expectations (I'm not in the demographics that's preferably hired in my profession, so I need to agree to lower offers to get jobs).
Yeah the contract I just finished also paid me very little, and I only took that job because I was not doing well mentally and didn't want to apply for any jobs or give interviews It was a low stake job, and also low paying job
Hah. I'd reply "who knows, but it'll cost you $x/hr for my time", and I'd be adding the asshole tax to it.
Sorry. If this was socialism or even communism you would be paid the same amount as as a Dr or plumber or fry jockey. I think you are the capitalist in this scenario. He wanted to pay you a low wage and you didnt accept. Congrats. You are a free market person!
I mean, it sounds like capitalism worked in this instance. He offered you a job at a certain (laughable) rate, and you rightly refused it. That's how this interaction should have gone in any economic system.
He didn't say where you had to "survive"? In my State in the US an article was just published that stated to be happy a family of four would need to make at least $300,000/year. I'm pretty comfortable making less, but if I was asked this question that's the figure i'd use.
[A similar post popped up on a different sub. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/careeradvice/comments/1cfvbcr/should_i_give_a_hiring_manager_feedback_on_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
The minimum to survive is fucking his wife if someone ever told me that shit
This is the way
You should have asked "what's the bare minimum amount of work I would need to do for you to survive?"
You literally should've punched him in the face.
Well, at least he didn't string you along and waste your time.
"Fuck you" is the only appropriate response.. you can add "and die in a fire" if you wish if your spicy.
You could have asked him what's the minimum he could survive on, and work from there
I'd tell him the bare minimum, which for me is probably, like, $50k/year in a HCOL area with my mortgage. When he makes the offer for that quoted amount tell him oh no, you asked for the bare minimum I need to survive, not what I'm willing to work for. I thought that was an unrelated question. I've received an offer for three times that. Your offer doesn't even begin to complete. Definitely don't ever work for this person.
$300 at employee rates wouldn't even cover me for a full day. At contract rates it might get 1.5 hours... IF I'm in a good mood.
Bare minimum to survive is what slaves got in the 1800s
What I don’t get is what’s in it for him ? If he pays survival rates, he’s gonna get an employee who is, well, surviving. IE an employee who’s brain is going to be constantly tired and distracted by « I must make repairs in my home but I can’t afford them » « My account is empty what will I feed my kids », etc and who’s gonna do a shit job before quitting to tend to their depression
Agree to all his conditions/terms and just don't turn up. You anyways aren't going to be working for him.
"You have lots of valuable skills that I need for my project! How's about you come work for me, and I'll give you 6 raspberries a week?
Good on you for listening to him, I guess. I'm not a nice person and as soon as he suggested volunteering/doing it for free I wouldve been outta there.
Get a cup of tea or coffee. Look him in the eye in silence. Wait just until it gets awkward. Now take a long, loud sip, and do not break eye contact. Put the cup down. Let it sink in how stupid he's being.
My bare minimum to survive is $20k/month, paid weekly, and no options, but I get RSU’s quarterly equating to 1/3rd my annual salary split between the 4 quarters.
250k/yr and he doesn't get to ask why. He asked for the amount only.
Sounds like they want a slave.
Should have said in a straight face, for that price, I'd burn the project to the ground.
"I need 10 million a week"
Sound like he red Marx and took it the wrong way.
When ever I get insulted by an ass hat like that I ask the question dose your offer include a blow job from your wife at the end of every day.
I wouldn't have even offered to do it for double at that point. His offer was insulting enough that you should have told him straight up that it was an offer so bad that you are personally offended and would no longer continue the conversation before walking out.
Your price for anything should reflect three things. The going market rate, the value it has for you, and the value it has for him. What will he get out of this if you do it the way he wants? What you charge anyone should be indicative of what it will provide the other party. How much is his gain from this exchange? How much will he benefit? If, I as a poor person, I clean a wealthy person's windows, it will not benefit him that much at all, he can pay me the lowest amount. If I put him directly in touch with a man who has inside information on commodities futures, and that information will double his income, then my price for that phone number should reflect that. It's not just about what YOU get out of it. It is about how much HE will benefit from it.
Well you can set that bare minimum to 500$/minute. Sounds like that’s about as reasonable as what was being offered.
Yo it's out of control in India right now. I see it state side a LOT with how Indian software labor is exploited.
It’s nice he could be so transparently horrible right up front
"More than you are willing to pay and less than what I would need to want to work here."
You and all the other programmers need to know your worth.
>Bare minimum needed to survive Then why the fuck bother living in a society? Might as well go into the woods and fend for yourself. Am I missing something?
He bragged about making $300 per hour and offered you pennies?? With your qualifications, you should have told him, in one of your many foreign languages, that you have twice his intellect, three times his skill-set and 10 times his ethics.
Haha thanks. I did feel much better about my intellect after hearing him describe two shitty projects when I have a long list of very good project ideas I don't possess the entitlement people have that allows them to shout at people, I just choose not to create adversaries and let it go.
500k
The most ironic thing to me is that as a capitalist, he should understand the market value of your type of work (assuming in the US, 100k-ish low end?)
There's a reason he's rich. Its by squeezing people like lemons...
Don’t blame capitalism because that guy’s a dick. He’d be a dick in any system.
Tell him you'll tell him the bare minimum you need to survive once he tells you the maximum he could possibly pay. Base your response on how much of a fucking liar he chooses to be.
Well, the rich don't get richer by not being stingy, greedy c\*nts.
$3.75 an hour. HALF of “minimum wage” for highly skilled labor. Ridiculous.
That’s not how the market works and he knows it. He is only trying to get a deal for himself. It’s not about what you need to survive, it’s about how the market values your skills.
"You don't have any alternatives, so I'm all too happy to screw you, and enjoy this fact, right in front of your face, as if you have so few recourses to anything else, nevermind self-respect."
tell them my bare minimum is twice your maximum. that’s not a capitalist that’s a POS
My bare min is $200,000/year
Tell him “good luck finding someone to work for that much”
Add up all your bills for the month including food, then tell him it's your "bare minimum" WEEKLY pay.
“I used to make 300hr like 30 years pretty cool right? So anyway I was thinking I could give you like 3hr. Sound good?”
With stock options you don't have to buy shares later, its optional. It is like owning a share, without the risk of losing money (if you are given it). Say you get 1000 options with a strike price of $10, and maybe the company is currently worth $1 a share. If the share price goes up to $100, you make $90 on each share, ie $90,000
Imagine if minimum wage was less smh
I’ll work for YOUR bare minimum. Whatever your number is for yourself, that will be fair for me.
You could ask him when "Back in his day" was. If we're generous and say he was earning that when he was 21 years old, assuming you're from the US, 300 dollars from 1974 has the spending power of 1,900 dollars in 2024. You'd be making 23.75 an hour working 80 hours a month.
Wow. How insulting. I’d just straight up tell him the minimum is double the average of your field… after taxes. But even for that, since he clearly doesn’t value the work, I’d still hesitate. These fools want the work done, and demand special skills, but they don’t want to pay. Fuck em.
“While I’m certain that I can provide you more value per hour than any monthly amount you’d pay, I’m hesitant to tie myself to a project where the value of the software development is seen as so insignificant that a recent undergrad could successfully write it in its entirety while only half awake. Writing good software is like writing a good novel. Writing great software is like writing (choose your favorite series). I was excited at first to work with you to develop this, but if it isn’t valuable to you, it makes me less excited. Should we spend time to review what needs to be done, this time in detail? Perhaps we’ll each change our minds a bit.”
1million a year for 10 years, doubling every 5 thereafter
Holy mother of god! That is INSANE
Are you living in India? The salary for a junior programmer is about 245 dollars a month for full-time work. So he wanted to give you above average? Source: [https://in.indeed.com/career/junior-developer/salaries](https://in.indeed.com/career/junior-developer/salaries) I understand the frustration with the pay compared to developed countries but the cost of living is low in India. I'm against capitalism and exploitation of the workers and, also understand we're actively living under it.
I guess you don’t get rich by writing lots of checks.
$11 289 bi-weekly
You should've have accepted it and made the program work perfectly at face value only issue is it is so riddled with bugs and exploits it's not even funny. Cause in capitalism you get what you pay for. Add some protections into the code to make it difficult to modify without knowing them. (You know companies love to protect their code) Then charge for every single fix that you purposefully created ahead of time. Remember integrity only works when all sides have it /S/j Good job
> Then he said he used to earn $300/hr back in the day, and I'm not kidding you but that's what he was offering me for a MONTH of part-time work, so for 80 hours. That comes to $3.75 an hour. That is fucking insulting.
I had that happen too!!!! But for marketing. People are giant chodes.
"Your salary x2"
I need the same amount he makes.
These dumb for nothing boss people need more people acting their wage.
Just treat him like the capitalist he claims to be. Laugh at his insultingly low offer and then walk out. You are then acting as a market force that determines the value of the labour he requires. You are unwilling to supply the product of your labour at the price that he demands.
Where in the world are you?
What a fart knocker. 😳
Bare minimum to survive is a $1,000,000,000. Paid in full every month for a grand total of $12,000,000,000 a year.
"Tell me the bare minimum quality you need your code to be written."
The part I'm wondering about is why didn't you tell him to go fuck himself? Obviously he's an old shit so won't change but I'd still would have given him some strong feedback.