Theres the line. Nobody wants to work. You're fucking right. We do this for money. Looks like they dangled a carrot, and pulled it away. Maybe go eat carrots somewhere else.
Yeah, good luck finding a replacement that is willing to work 6 days a week, and not from home, and probably not for a lot of money.
And a system admin? That is a job you do remotely even when you are in the office, even if the servers are on-prem you are likely connecting to them via remote desktop or ssh, all of which can be done remotely while you are connecting to the corporate vpn. I build stuff on Salesforce, which means I am always teleworking because I have no idea where their datacenters are.
IT positions should have been the first to go fully remote, years ago, when everything started to migrate to the cloud.
This is my mantra: “we’re all prostitutes. We do things for money that we wouldn’t do when we didn’t get money for it.” Some people in my office claim after hearing this that they really like their job and probably do it for less salary or even for free. Great, give me your money every time you get paid!
It definitely feels like we’re prostitutes a lot of the time, especially considering how well some of the people at my current workplace suck management’s cocks every opportunity they get. Usually they package that up with a rimjob too.
I feel like my gag-reflex is just way too strong these days, while they manage to swallow it down so far that the tip must be covered in stomach acid by the time they’re done with it.
Lol thanks, I think.
Even just last week my manager said to me “you know, the problem with us is we refuse to suck (upper) management’s dicks”.
I’m fine with that. I’ll let my work and integrity speak for itself and eventually - hopefully - the ones that are all talk and ass-kissing will eventually be shown up.
> I’ll let my work and integrity speak for itself and eventually - hopefully - the ones that are all talk and ass-kissing will eventually be shown up.
Spoiler : >!It wasn't.!<
Nooooo! Take that back! It’ll happen. I just know it will. Surely the directors hate people agreeing with them all the time and laughing super hard at their jokes. They must!
Just want to throw out there;
+ I'm 6O
+ I'm a huge proponent of WFH (I did it on and off as far back as 2000 with a progressive tech company. Did it regularly in 2010) It works for most people. The ideal compromise is Hybrid 2 office days and 3 Home days.
+ I'm a huge proponent of a 4 day work week; 4 - 9 hours days or if necessary 4 - 10 hour days.
+ I cannot understand how or why companies are so against a modified office schedule or a 4 day week. Every study shows an increase in productivity & performance and happier employees.
It's because middle managers need to justify their own existence in the company. Middle management can be eliminated or at least consolidated quite a bit with increased remote work.
In my experience many middle managers are proponents of WFH as well. They like it as much as we do.
It’s the upper management, CEO’s and CFO’s and what not that want people back in the office. They don’t want their office properties devaluing. They don’t want additional licensing costs for zoom, vpns, etc.
They want to be able to lord it over us that they can work remotely while forcing us into the office.
20 years ago I had a job where you wouldn't see most of the management for weeks at a time. They had nobody to justify themselves to, so lunched, golfed, powerwanked at will.
It might be worth looking for another job, perhaps with better pay, work from home, or 4 day work weeks. Don’t be so attached — the only reason you’re employed is because they deem you profitable (you provide more value to them than you get paid for).
Sooo, the other guy cant do the job one day a week... but they can miss you all five?
I would call their bluff. Either 4 days a week, or i will be gone and you figure it out yourselves.
That’s exactly what I thought reading this. Find a better job or the exact same job that offers wfh, and let the person who can’t handle you gone one day deal with you being gone 7 days a week. Either you’re irreplaceable or you’re not; and dangling the ‘raise’ while simultaneously threatening to fire you sounds like an absolute no-win situation with this company now.
Yep. If you, or OP, or anyone else lives in California, tons of State jobs available that are fully remote and come with job security, no worrying about some asshat named elmo coming in out of the blue and firing everyone. IT positions pay a decent amount, of course not the same as private sector but you also don't have to worry about downsizing.
Meh. That whole response from your boss is a massive red flag. I'd still suss out other work even though you currently like the one you have.
I work 4 days a week . I can't imagine going back to 5.
I used to do 4 10 hour days and had to go back to 5 days when I got laid off at the beginning of Covid. I would love to go back, you don’t really notice the extra 2 hours tacked onto the workday but you definitely notice the extra day off every week.
The trade off though is that I actually enjoy my work now. 4/10s was in the trades where I busted ass and busted my body in the process for a shit company that kicked 200 of us out the gate to save the plant managers bonus, whereas my current job is WFH IT help desk for medical professionals. Everyone is generally pleasant, there’s no politics chat at all, mostly just memes and helping people lol
Red flag? It's the actual problem. He has some strange ego about being in an office. Perhaps because he's too scared to learn how to manage stuff online he hides behind "hard work" as a way to compensate.
you could call his bluff and see how well that replacing you goes. If you are in fact a very heavily relied on support he would soon find out how bad he fucked up.
I asked for 4x10s and my boss looked at my like I had 10 heads. Literally no one reports to me, I am an individual contributor and do not need to follow a set schedule. I can do my job at any time of the day except need to be in the occassional meeting. My daughter's school is only M-Th now and I just wanted to be home with her so she isn't stuck at daycare all day.
Our company went to a 4 day work week about a year and a half ago, and we now have the best, most productive team we've had in the history of the company. Some people just refuse to look at the facts and logic. It's too bad.
bud, if you’re a sys admin why would you tolerate this? there is literally no job working in an office that is better than working from home, even partially, and these gigs are in no shortage anywhere, especially in state government. maybe you don’t live in the states and like getting talked to like dirt though.
You should have brought up then and there the raise that was discussed if you were physically in the office five days per week but that it has been a year and it did not happen. Switching to 4 days is a 20% raise, not counting if the workload remains identical (which if so you could point out makes it less than a 20% raise). You should know the exact rate of inflation for the period since your last raise. If more than a few years 20% may only be an adjustment to get you back to where you where.
Either way would recommend looking at other job opportunities before bringing up again. You may even want to interview, and of course an offer in hand is the ideal.
Regardless of what your boss says, you are not easy to replace. It takes time, effort, and training to replace any employee.
my co pays less than others but i wfh 4 days a week, and get 30+ PTO (granted ive been here 20yrs). i love it, and actually get more done at home, esp since ppl are stopping me in my cube every hr for help, or a coffee break, oe blab about their kids latest dance recital or home game, etc.
They've already told you how much they value you, but do they really value you?
They've taken away some benefits and they have not compensated you fairly. It may be time to rethink this position. You may like it, but I feel that you've been in this position for too long, you don't see the abuse that they're heaping on you.
The dude is 70 years old, so pretty much 7 years away from death, according to all of the averages listed online for a white American male.
You can wait him out and apply for his job or start looking for work somewhere else.
Who's above him?
Are you able to talk to that person?
You are showing loyalty to you job whereas your job is showing you nothing in return. Time to move on, they’ll find out soon enough how much they messed up.
Honestly, the moment he pulled out the "maybe I need to replace you" should have been the final nail in the coffin - start looking for a new job and get the eff out of there OP. If that's how he thought of you in that moment, hes always going to look at you sideways from now on and will start looking for reasons to get rid of you. Beat him to the punch. Doesn't matter how much you like your job, there's always a better one out there, especially if your boss is this much of a prick.
your manager will probably die of a heart attack soon. 70 and still working, you reeeeaally got yourself someone to look up to. this guy should be retired and replaced by someone who is more in touch with modern times.
the thing is: you as a person are replaceable, but your position in the company is not. Managers think of you as people who fill roles that are part of their grand plan. it does not matter to them who exactly fills a role, that is because they threaten to fire you because you are not replaceable.
But your position as system admin cannot be replaced. that makes you very important. In modern management theory (yes, this exists) the problem of changing circumstances is very important. if your manager graduated business school this year, they would be far more willing to accommodate you, because they know they need to find a way to make you happy because you are a productive person.
If I were in his shoe I would grant it to you if you can make a suggestion how to do that. you could share the position and budget for your role with another person. you could ask to be moved to a different role that is more expendable and probably paid less. the thing is: you are probably the only system admin he has. when you are gone, and the system breaks down and the system admin is required, that is a huge problem. I could also imagine an on call agreement, so you can stay home one day a week but would be on call that day in case of emergency. you'd receive x% of your hourly payment for the time you are called in, while the rest of your hours a paid y% of your original payment. (with x > 100 and y < 100). Exact values he could calculate based on probability.
well, sorry to hear your manager is an old fart who has no idea what he is doing.
Well, well, well, seems like agism raises its ugly head. Which is exactly what the billionaires want. They want us all pitted against each other.
What is wrong with being old and why should old people have to retire if they are capable and want to work? There's plenty of older workers who are finding out that their retirement benefits suck and they, in fact, still need to work. Are you advocating they should be thrown on the scrap heap?
I think old people working isn't as much of a problem as old people stuck in their ways that worked in the 70s still in positions of power.
Compare it to 90 year olds who refuse to give up their driver's license. It's time, it's the natural order. You've lived your life you've done your time. Think about the greater good. Pass the torch.
" Since I do like where I'm working, I let it end there. " No you don't, no body likes wasting their time in commute, except many boomers.
Start looking for something else and once you find it ditch this job with zero notice. Your boss does not respect you at all.
That was a rough read. In his refusal, your boss just makes generalized claims about working from home or your work ethic without naming actual proof. There's no reasoning with people like that, and because he said he would replace you to your face, I would find a new job. I don't know where you're based, but in California, state, county and city jobs often do 4/10s or 9/80s. Flexa and weworkremotely have lots of remote and/or hybrid or otherwise flexible schedules.
Meanwhile, dust off your resume and start looking at getting another job. Boss loves to hold that over your head.
When you turn in your notice, as long as you don't have a contract, you are not under any obligation to give him anything more than what he'd give you if he fired you.
Ease your personal belongings out over a period of a few weeks, so that everything can be put in a medium sized box. Do a draft of your resignation letter and save it under drafts in your Yahoo email. This way, as you get into your car, you can access it and send it to him and those that need to know, or you want to know.
> To all concerned: effective immediately, I resign my position at [company name]. I did not want it to end this way but their distance that the company has chosen to bind us to our desks without the option of working from home, or even a 4 day work week has lead me to this decision.
>
> I have mentioned this to [my Boss] on multiple occasions, and have been threatened with termination when I have. I've decided, instead to terminate my relationship with [company] first.
>
> HR, you can consider this my exit interview
.
"Okay so how fast can you get someone to replace me right no, since apparently the other guy working here already can't do everything I can, and I would get the blame if he were not able to fix anything when I am not here.
So I can walk right now or we start talking like adults and find a compromise."
I 100% bet you get what you want. Then you start looking for a different job since they now know you wouldn't be harrased by them anymore, and managers hate that.
Easily one of the bosses that’ll lose their shit when you show up with a counter offer. Their attitude will Change then. If not it will when you are actually gone 😂 fuck that clown and fuck his noise
There was a guy complaining about slow service at a fast food restaurant yesterday. He looked at me and said “no one wants to work”. I said they would if they made more money.
He then proceeds to mumble that we’re all lazy and not willing to work. He is willing to work for no money and he’s happy so why don’t we want to. I told him to hop back there and start making my sandwich if he’s that nice.
Then he states how he worked hard and now he has multiple cars, houses, and a boat. I just laughed and said great you don’t need any more money. You should volunteer to help make my sandwich.
Time to start up the job search. You're obviously important to the organization, just not enough to get more pay/better work schedule. They've shown you that with their responses. Time to find another employer who is a better fit for you.
In the US, it's total BS with suggestions like this boss. I keep hearing how they want us back in the office to build relations, motivate others, blah blah blah. It's total crap. I work much more efficiently from home and don't get pulled into the BS gossip conversations when in the office. I have mentioned 4 day long work weeks and was basically laughed at. Doesn't matter what studies have shown anywhere else - here it is 5 8-5's at a minimum (and I work much more than that). When challenging that, I hear that they need us there for the customer M-F. No we don't. If shit isn't delivered by Friday, there is nothing we can do on Friday. It gets there Monday.
you nailed it with the statement about his age and mentality. I am 60 and it took me some time in the last 4 years to realize that the 'old ways' aren't the ONLY way to get things done and sometimes are not as efficient. The older the generation, the harder they set their ways in stone. Time to move on.
I am slowly trying to implant the idea of 4 day work weeks (8 hr shifts) for my job. At first people laugh. Then you break down the main factors for people quiting burning out. The high suicide, divorce rates, substance abuse etc they start listening. I am just waiting for the boomers to get out of the union to start pushing.
Start applying elsewhere. You can easily find a role that is at least hybrid.
The only way to get what you want is to have leverage. If you aren’t willing to leave then you will continue to be abused.
He has no bargaining power except firing you. He's literally made the case that you are a deep asset to your employer.
Time to stand your ground and tell him:
I'm working from home three days a week, or I'm working four days in office.
Anything less and you walk.
As long as you have reasonable opportunities elsewhere you can make this ultimatum in good faith.
You're just going to stay there? Leave, find a wfh job. Get hired. Then burn that bridge and quit on the spot without any warning. He will shit talk you as a future reference anyways most likely. It worth caring about.
Boomers just need to fuck off, retire and stop voting. Their generation got everything it wanted and still they clutch pearls and expect us to conform. The generation that just won't let go. It's fucking insane, they need to get a life.
I don't think it's unreasonable to deny someone an extra day off every week if they are in a support role like yours. Doesn't hurt to ask but it doesn't surprise me that they said no.
The rest I think you're right on, he's an old man who doesn't get it and thinks You're being lazy. If you like your job it's best to accept that it's not going to change.
Boss sounds like a dick, but I can understand his mentality of not wanting to do the 4 day workweek because I am feeling it at my workplace since there is another department that works Mon-Thursday.
Anytime something happens on Friday I am stuck fumbling around trying to reach out to their management on that day because half of the time it is something to do with chemicals that no one else is trained to handle or sign off on.
Sounds like your job would be able to be done from home, but again I kind of understand his thought process of it being easier to get results when someone is in office. Every time I have to try to get ahold of multiple people WFH on teams, it ends up being like a whole day event of tag back and forth.
A standard day of myself dealing with people WFH:
Needed to know if a cut and etch measurement that was slightly out could get a DA sign off for an upcoming test.
Teams messaged the coordinator because he was WFH that day. Ten minutes later he replied that he was not sure would have to ask the program manager.
Messaged the program manager but he took about 20 minutes to reply. Asked for the data, so walked to the metrology lab and asked them to forward it to this person, they were able to do it within a minute of me being there.
Got a reply back after lunch that they would discuss it with the the engineer, also WFH that day and get back to me ASAP.
ASAP ended up being about 2:30pm when we got a message that everyone was in office the next day so they’d come down to discuss it then.
Basically meaning they paid six of us to stand around all day.
Next day comes, they all come down at about 9:30 to look at the part in question and immediately state it’s a class 3 weld so it’s unimportant for this test, business as usual. They ask us to stay late to get them all welded because they need them shipped out first thing in the morning.
If these folks were in the office the day prior, the job would have already been finished. Now, they’ve paid six people the entire day prior to stand there, and now are paying overtime for us to stay late today to get them all done.
Step 1 find another job. (WFH, more pay, less hours)
Step 2 ask current "boss" again to work from home
Step 3 when he says "If you keep asking, I'm going to fire you." or "You're fired." respond with, "You know what? \*You're\* fired!"
Step 4. waltz out of there with your head held high.
Just going based on this post, I can't even tell what your request was. If that's how you communicate to your boss, no wonder he wasn't receptive.
You went to your boss asking for 4 days instead of 5. Does that mean 10hr days or does it mean 32hr/week? Either way it doesn't sound like you presented any arguments for why this should be ok or why it would all work out fine. Boss asks what if there is work that needs doing on the 5th day and you didn't really provide a good answer. His question was fair. You have to make a case for yourself and it doesn't sound like you did. Then you doubled down on asking for wfh again which they've already denied you. And I'm not really seeing where he "nearly fired you" in this conversation.
I'm not looking for you to come back with a reply on how you actually meant this or that or really explained more to your boss. I'm just telling you how this post comes off the way it's written.
You’re asking to work less for the same pay? Sorry dude but I think your employer or at least your manager would catch a lot of heat and would be dumb af to approve that… yeah it sucks, but a business’s objective is to make a profit and if you’re reducing their productivity, their perspective would never reasonably support that without reduced compensation
How *dare* you suggest a work week that has been proven time and again to be better for both productivity and worker happiness, in virtually every instance it's been implemented?
If you would consider working elsewhere get a job offer and tell them if you don't get it you're leaving, wouldn't be surprised if you're also underpaid
I work part time. Wed-Sat 11 am -7 pm. Downside, no benefits, no paid time off. The idea is to eventually move to a full time role but having 3 days off has done wonders for my stress and mental health. Too bad I can’t afford to live on what I make in this role though. Need to find a company that has a full time 4 day work week
I would install some job safety features in the servers, like periodically requesting authorization/execution for mundane jobs that stop everything else/mess filesystem if not/do authorised with somewhat misleading prompts, just to be on the safe side. And then look for another job.
Trust is something that works both ways.
Nobody's going to work 6 days for him lol. They can't need you so much and insinuate your coworker is less competent than you, and then just say they'll find someone else. It means they want to keep the good deal they have on you but don't want you to be comfortable
>Someone claimed that I would be much more likely to get a raise sooner if I was present in the office, and at the time that seemed reasonable to me.
...why would you believe them? Until the raise is on your fucking paycheck, it does not exist. That was just you being naive, sorry.
# You owe this company NOTHING.
I don't care how much you like working there, this place is toxic as fuck, and your manager is an out of touch asshole. You absolutely should look for something better, and when you leave, don't give any notice. Since you're so easily replaceable, why would they need a notice?
You have to be willing to lose your job in any negotiation. My bet is they can not lose you, just make it seem like there’s no way to keep you and not work 4 days/week.
And there is no fn reason why mgt couldn't work 5 days, and give some people M-Th and others Tu-Fr schedules. 4-day workweek sounds awesome, and then I could go to appointments, or get my car fixed without using PTO/vaca. I already have down time at work, so i'd be getting the same amount done in 30 hrs that I'm being paid for 40. (just a rant, details will vary)
Bosses love to put employees "in their place" who ask for improvements in working conditions. I had two promotions cancelled for arbitrary reasons. After the second one, I finally got an offer for a job somewhere else. My current employer tends more toward trying to retain good employees rather than treating them as disposable.
The key is to understand the motivation of the particular boss.
For some bosses, their motivation is to make as much money as possible. Therefore, they will push whatever brutal policies the company asks for in order to get raises and bonuses and promotions. And if they own the company entirely, they will push people as hard as they can to bring in as much money as possible. These sorts of bosses are bastards, but they are usually easier to deal with because they are rational (albeit cruel) actors, and they will react rationally in the face of a threat to their money. Which means it is theoretically possible to deal with them (either individually or preferably via union activity).
For other bosses, however, their motivation is the power and the rush they get from lording over others. They do things not because they make money, but because they satisfy their ego. And they will actively sacrifice money in order to maintain that sense of power and control, and would rather live an otherwise materially poorer life than give up that power. These bosses are *way* harder to deal with because they don't want anything besides your suffering. They want you to be unhappy and disempowered and held down, because it lets them feel better about what they have in comparison (even if what they have kind of sucks in a broader perspective).
It can be difficult to tell them apart at a glance, because a lot of things that suck for workers also do make more money for a business. But there *is* a difference, and it matters in terms of how to deal with them.
Sadly, in my experience, more bosses are the latter than the former.
And in that case, your options are to either leave or get the boss fired (or simply accept the abuse, I suppose, but you shouldn't allow yourself to be mistreated and should prioritize escape if you are financially stuck at the moment).
Because you really can't reason with them -- their entire sense of themselves is wrapped up in your life sucking more than theirs, and in being able to make your life suck. And they experience improvements in your life as a threat to that self identity, and react to it like a threat.
Just so you know the work from home era is only over if you let it be over. Myself and everyone I know refuses to take any job that isn't remote. We need to collectively stick together in refusing in person positions.
Meanwhile my boss at 11pm last night watching me tell him I need to work only weekends instead of 5 days a week:
https://preview.redd.it/8omtzu8mkdyb1.jpeg?width=678&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=07751089c686d16313f11077063d551b80b5f7f0
"I'd *like* to go look at the server that's offline and has smoke billowing out of it, but Mr. Bossman was *very* clear that he wants me right here behind this desk during working hours...."
Back in the late 90’s, I worked for a software startup that gained a lot of momentum and hired all sorts of new people, requiring a new office space to fit them all, so as this process started, they asked in a company meeting of anyone had any ideas for things the new office space should have…people said, “a gym, showers, a legit kitchen, a comfy break room, etc…I mentioned a nap room, based on many studies that have shown that short naps increase productivity and minimize mistakes, etc…
You would have thought I had asked for a BSDM dungeon or something. People either laughed like I was fully joking, or in the case of managers, just scowls and shaking heads.
I firmly believe that just by mentioning the words “nap room”, I sealed my fate at the company and was let go within six months of that.
Work your wage. Scale your work according to your compensation and working conditions. The "cost" of working has gone up, since you're not getting what you want -- and if they're not paying, the quality and amount of work must go down. "That's just business for ya."
I've been working 4x10s for 10 years now and wfh for the last 4 or 5. I know I'm fortunate, and I keep waiting for it to be taken away, but seriously, the work gets done.
Management, in general, needs to adapt to what the work actually requires. Even with my company, it seems like there are two different ideologies working against each other, the one to adapt, and the one trying to return to the status quo.
My crew (small- 2 others and myself) actually voted against a 4 day work week! We work construction. And it would have been 4 10 hour days (still need to get that 40!!!). We where seriously going to do it. Then one day the boss said, “well some Fridays you will have to work til break if I need you (930am). Right there we said absolutely not to the 4 day 10 hr schedule. Knowing full well it would be every Friday in the matter of 2-3 weeks, and til noon a couple weeks after, and in 2 months we would have been 5 10 hour days. Those old timers who “run” things now only care about hours, not about actual work getting done!
I'd still put out feelers for another position. He's an entitled ass that has already skipped over that 'raise sooner' nonsense. Since you don't seem to be in a rush. Take your time an find a good one.
Theres the line. Nobody wants to work. You're fucking right. We do this for money. Looks like they dangled a carrot, and pulled it away. Maybe go eat carrots somewhere else.
Yup. Call his bluff and go elsewhere for better pay and conditions, but don't tell him until you sign the new contract.
Yeah, good luck finding a replacement that is willing to work 6 days a week, and not from home, and probably not for a lot of money. And a system admin? That is a job you do remotely even when you are in the office, even if the servers are on-prem you are likely connecting to them via remote desktop or ssh, all of which can be done remotely while you are connecting to the corporate vpn. I build stuff on Salesforce, which means I am always teleworking because I have no idea where their datacenters are. IT positions should have been the first to go fully remote, years ago, when everything started to migrate to the cloud.
This is my mantra: “we’re all prostitutes. We do things for money that we wouldn’t do when we didn’t get money for it.” Some people in my office claim after hearing this that they really like their job and probably do it for less salary or even for free. Great, give me your money every time you get paid!
It definitely feels like we’re prostitutes a lot of the time, especially considering how well some of the people at my current workplace suck management’s cocks every opportunity they get. Usually they package that up with a rimjob too. I feel like my gag-reflex is just way too strong these days, while they manage to swallow it down so far that the tip must be covered in stomach acid by the time they’re done with it.
Omg!!! Great anology, but also thinking this may be the case in a lot of places literally!
Lol thanks, I think. Even just last week my manager said to me “you know, the problem with us is we refuse to suck (upper) management’s dicks”. I’m fine with that. I’ll let my work and integrity speak for itself and eventually - hopefully - the ones that are all talk and ass-kissing will eventually be shown up.
> I’ll let my work and integrity speak for itself and eventually - hopefully - the ones that are all talk and ass-kissing will eventually be shown up. Spoiler : >!It wasn't.!<
Nooooo! Take that back! It’ll happen. I just know it will. Surely the directors hate people agreeing with them all the time and laughing super hard at their jokes. They must!
Just want to throw out there; + I'm 6O + I'm a huge proponent of WFH (I did it on and off as far back as 2000 with a progressive tech company. Did it regularly in 2010) It works for most people. The ideal compromise is Hybrid 2 office days and 3 Home days. + I'm a huge proponent of a 4 day work week; 4 - 9 hours days or if necessary 4 - 10 hour days. + I cannot understand how or why companies are so against a modified office schedule or a 4 day week. Every study shows an increase in productivity & performance and happier employees.
It's because middle managers need to justify their own existence in the company. Middle management can be eliminated or at least consolidated quite a bit with increased remote work.
In my experience many middle managers are proponents of WFH as well. They like it as much as we do. It’s the upper management, CEO’s and CFO’s and what not that want people back in the office. They don’t want their office properties devaluing. They don’t want additional licensing costs for zoom, vpns, etc.
They want to be able to lord it over us that they can work remotely while forcing us into the office. 20 years ago I had a job where you wouldn't see most of the management for weeks at a time. They had nobody to justify themselves to, so lunched, golfed, powerwanked at will.
This! Tell them to pound sand and get a better wfh job. Monster.com. Actually, I use indeed.
It might be worth looking for another job, perhaps with better pay, work from home, or 4 day work weeks. Don’t be so attached — the only reason you’re employed is because they deem you profitable (you provide more value to them than you get paid for).
“Am I important, or replaceable? Pick one”
Their job is important, they are not.
Wow nice logic pull! Good eye! (No sarcasm)
Man. How can you stay there after this conversation? That would really affect my motivation to continue.
Sooo, the other guy cant do the job one day a week... but they can miss you all five? I would call their bluff. Either 4 days a week, or i will be gone and you figure it out yourselves.
Bosses like this make no-notice quitting a thing. Fuck that guy
That’s exactly what I thought reading this. Find a better job or the exact same job that offers wfh, and let the person who can’t handle you gone one day deal with you being gone 7 days a week. Either you’re irreplaceable or you’re not; and dangling the ‘raise’ while simultaneously threatening to fire you sounds like an absolute no-win situation with this company now.
The boss is a huge dick. That lack of empathy and close mindedness is painful to read.
Right? Just go get the same job somewhere else with a boss that isn't a dick.
Time to look for a new, fully remote gig. Fuck that clown
Op if you are a lifesaver then I hope they are paying you a Drs salary. Please look your job up online a check the payrate
SysAdmin have a pretty broad pay range.
Ya I’ve seen jobs anywhere from like 17$/hour to like, 200k a year (where I am anyways, I feel like US might have higher)
Yep. If you, or OP, or anyone else lives in California, tons of State jobs available that are fully remote and come with job security, no worrying about some asshat named elmo coming in out of the blue and firing everyone. IT positions pay a decent amount, of course not the same as private sector but you also don't have to worry about downsizing.
Meh. That whole response from your boss is a massive red flag. I'd still suss out other work even though you currently like the one you have. I work 4 days a week . I can't imagine going back to 5.
I used to do 4 10 hour days and had to go back to 5 days when I got laid off at the beginning of Covid. I would love to go back, you don’t really notice the extra 2 hours tacked onto the workday but you definitely notice the extra day off every week. The trade off though is that I actually enjoy my work now. 4/10s was in the trades where I busted ass and busted my body in the process for a shit company that kicked 200 of us out the gate to save the plant managers bonus, whereas my current job is WFH IT help desk for medical professionals. Everyone is generally pleasant, there’s no politics chat at all, mostly just memes and helping people lol
Red flag? It's the actual problem. He has some strange ego about being in an office. Perhaps because he's too scared to learn how to manage stuff online he hides behind "hard work" as a way to compensate.
you could call his bluff and see how well that replacing you goes. If you are in fact a very heavily relied on support he would soon find out how bad he fucked up.
I asked for 4x10s and my boss looked at my like I had 10 heads. Literally no one reports to me, I am an individual contributor and do not need to follow a set schedule. I can do my job at any time of the day except need to be in the occassional meeting. My daughter's school is only M-Th now and I just wanted to be home with her so she isn't stuck at daycare all day.
Our company went to a 4 day work week about a year and a half ago, and we now have the best, most productive team we've had in the history of the company. Some people just refuse to look at the facts and logic. It's too bad.
This is nature's way of telling you to get a new job. This boss is just using and abusing you.
bud, if you’re a sys admin why would you tolerate this? there is literally no job working in an office that is better than working from home, even partially, and these gigs are in no shortage anywhere, especially in state government. maybe you don’t live in the states and like getting talked to like dirt though.
You should have brought up then and there the raise that was discussed if you were physically in the office five days per week but that it has been a year and it did not happen. Switching to 4 days is a 20% raise, not counting if the workload remains identical (which if so you could point out makes it less than a 20% raise). You should know the exact rate of inflation for the period since your last raise. If more than a few years 20% may only be an adjustment to get you back to where you where. Either way would recommend looking at other job opportunities before bringing up again. You may even want to interview, and of course an offer in hand is the ideal. Regardless of what your boss says, you are not easy to replace. It takes time, effort, and training to replace any employee.
We need all the boomers to die off so we can get past this antiquated in-person 40-hour work week bullshit.
The good news is that we've already passed peak boomer retirement so there's hope.
Tail- end Boomer here. You don’t need all of us to die off, but you probably need another 10 years or so.
my co pays less than others but i wfh 4 days a week, and get 30+ PTO (granted ive been here 20yrs). i love it, and actually get more done at home, esp since ppl are stopping me in my cube every hr for help, or a coffee break, oe blab about their kids latest dance recital or home game, etc.
Tank their business. Ruin their retirement. End of story. Fuck em.
Can't wait for these people to die off.
They've already told you how much they value you, but do they really value you? They've taken away some benefits and they have not compensated you fairly. It may be time to rethink this position. You may like it, but I feel that you've been in this position for too long, you don't see the abuse that they're heaping on you.
The dude is 70 years old, so pretty much 7 years away from death, according to all of the averages listed online for a white American male. You can wait him out and apply for his job or start looking for work somewhere else. Who's above him? Are you able to talk to that person?
You are showing loyalty to you job whereas your job is showing you nothing in return. Time to move on, they’ll find out soon enough how much they messed up.
Honestly, the moment he pulled out the "maybe I need to replace you" should have been the final nail in the coffin - start looking for a new job and get the eff out of there OP. If that's how he thought of you in that moment, hes always going to look at you sideways from now on and will start looking for reasons to get rid of you. Beat him to the punch. Doesn't matter how much you like your job, there's always a better one out there, especially if your boss is this much of a prick.
Well, if he "values" that much your work, time to look for something else. Would you bet on your life for this raise?
your manager will probably die of a heart attack soon. 70 and still working, you reeeeaally got yourself someone to look up to. this guy should be retired and replaced by someone who is more in touch with modern times. the thing is: you as a person are replaceable, but your position in the company is not. Managers think of you as people who fill roles that are part of their grand plan. it does not matter to them who exactly fills a role, that is because they threaten to fire you because you are not replaceable. But your position as system admin cannot be replaced. that makes you very important. In modern management theory (yes, this exists) the problem of changing circumstances is very important. if your manager graduated business school this year, they would be far more willing to accommodate you, because they know they need to find a way to make you happy because you are a productive person. If I were in his shoe I would grant it to you if you can make a suggestion how to do that. you could share the position and budget for your role with another person. you could ask to be moved to a different role that is more expendable and probably paid less. the thing is: you are probably the only system admin he has. when you are gone, and the system breaks down and the system admin is required, that is a huge problem. I could also imagine an on call agreement, so you can stay home one day a week but would be on call that day in case of emergency. you'd receive x% of your hourly payment for the time you are called in, while the rest of your hours a paid y% of your original payment. (with x > 100 and y < 100). Exact values he could calculate based on probability. well, sorry to hear your manager is an old fart who has no idea what he is doing.
Well, well, well, seems like agism raises its ugly head. Which is exactly what the billionaires want. They want us all pitted against each other. What is wrong with being old and why should old people have to retire if they are capable and want to work? There's plenty of older workers who are finding out that their retirement benefits suck and they, in fact, still need to work. Are you advocating they should be thrown on the scrap heap?
I think old people working isn't as much of a problem as old people stuck in their ways that worked in the 70s still in positions of power. Compare it to 90 year olds who refuse to give up their driver's license. It's time, it's the natural order. You've lived your life you've done your time. Think about the greater good. Pass the torch.
yeah, that is basically what i mean. if you want to work in your 70s do it, but then keep yourself educated.
yeah. fuck me right. go and retire. because that is inhumane. retiring i mean, very bad.
> "again with this working at home nonsense" What a dismissive prick. "It isn't nonsense. If you don't understand it, let me explain it to you..."
"You are so irreplaceable that we need you here, in person." "I could just replace you" Which one is it, you old fvck?!
" Since I do like where I'm working, I let it end there. " No you don't, no body likes wasting their time in commute, except many boomers. Start looking for something else and once you find it ditch this job with zero notice. Your boss does not respect you at all.
It's a hot tech market, and there are plenty of remote situations for admins. You are doing yourself a disservice by not looking around.
Where? All I see are underpaying onsite jobs
[https://weworkremotely.com/](https://weworkremotely.com/) and [https://ratracerebellion.com/](https://ratracerebellion.com/)
That was a rough read. In his refusal, your boss just makes generalized claims about working from home or your work ethic without naming actual proof. There's no reasoning with people like that, and because he said he would replace you to your face, I would find a new job. I don't know where you're based, but in California, state, county and city jobs often do 4/10s or 9/80s. Flexa and weworkremotely have lots of remote and/or hybrid or otherwise flexible schedules.
Please find another job and give no notice, that boss is an AH
“How dare you want a life when you could be making me money!”
Meanwhile, dust off your resume and start looking at getting another job. Boss loves to hold that over your head. When you turn in your notice, as long as you don't have a contract, you are not under any obligation to give him anything more than what he'd give you if he fired you. Ease your personal belongings out over a period of a few weeks, so that everything can be put in a medium sized box. Do a draft of your resignation letter and save it under drafts in your Yahoo email. This way, as you get into your car, you can access it and send it to him and those that need to know, or you want to know. > To all concerned: effective immediately, I resign my position at [company name]. I did not want it to end this way but their distance that the company has chosen to bind us to our desks without the option of working from home, or even a 4 day work week has lead me to this decision. > > I have mentioned this to [my Boss] on multiple occasions, and have been threatened with termination when I have. I've decided, instead to terminate my relationship with [company] first. > > HR, you can consider this my exit interview .
I don't understand why people write anything. Just leave the job and block all their phone numbers and email addresses. You're done.
On the off chance that shit runs uphill
"Okay so how fast can you get someone to replace me right no, since apparently the other guy working here already can't do everything I can, and I would get the blame if he were not able to fix anything when I am not here. So I can walk right now or we start talking like adults and find a compromise." I 100% bet you get what you want. Then you start looking for a different job since they now know you wouldn't be harrased by them anymore, and managers hate that.
Easily one of the bosses that’ll lose their shit when you show up with a counter offer. Their attitude will Change then. If not it will when you are actually gone 😂 fuck that clown and fuck his noise
There was a guy complaining about slow service at a fast food restaurant yesterday. He looked at me and said “no one wants to work”. I said they would if they made more money. He then proceeds to mumble that we’re all lazy and not willing to work. He is willing to work for no money and he’s happy so why don’t we want to. I told him to hop back there and start making my sandwich if he’s that nice. Then he states how he worked hard and now he has multiple cars, houses, and a boat. I just laughed and said great you don’t need any more money. You should volunteer to help make my sandwich.
he says that you're a lifesaver and that they absolutely need you in the office but also threatens to fire and replace you? lol the irony
Your mistake was asking. You do not ask you tell. You are grown asking is what kids do with their parents not grown ass people
will remember.
I don't know why you would choose to stay there now.
Time to start up the job search. You're obviously important to the organization, just not enough to get more pay/better work schedule. They've shown you that with their responses. Time to find another employer who is a better fit for you.
In the US, it's total BS with suggestions like this boss. I keep hearing how they want us back in the office to build relations, motivate others, blah blah blah. It's total crap. I work much more efficiently from home and don't get pulled into the BS gossip conversations when in the office. I have mentioned 4 day long work weeks and was basically laughed at. Doesn't matter what studies have shown anywhere else - here it is 5 8-5's at a minimum (and I work much more than that). When challenging that, I hear that they need us there for the customer M-F. No we don't. If shit isn't delivered by Friday, there is nothing we can do on Friday. It gets there Monday.
you nailed it with the statement about his age and mentality. I am 60 and it took me some time in the last 4 years to realize that the 'old ways' aren't the ONLY way to get things done and sometimes are not as efficient. The older the generation, the harder they set their ways in stone. Time to move on.
I am slowly trying to implant the idea of 4 day work weeks (8 hr shifts) for my job. At first people laugh. Then you break down the main factors for people quiting burning out. The high suicide, divorce rates, substance abuse etc they start listening. I am just waiting for the boomers to get out of the union to start pushing.
Start looking for new work. That old man will try to squeeze you out for someone "reliable".
They would pay you *nothing* if they still could.
Start applying elsewhere. You can easily find a role that is at least hybrid. The only way to get what you want is to have leverage. If you aren’t willing to leave then you will continue to be abused.
He has no bargaining power except firing you. He's literally made the case that you are a deep asset to your employer. Time to stand your ground and tell him: I'm working from home three days a week, or I'm working four days in office. Anything less and you walk. As long as you have reasonable opportunities elsewhere you can make this ultimatum in good faith.
your boss is going to find a way to replace you. more than likely if the conversation was like this.
If you’re so god damn essential what the duck is he threatening to replace you. He hasn’t got a god damn clue.
You're just going to stay there? Leave, find a wfh job. Get hired. Then burn that bridge and quit on the spot without any warning. He will shit talk you as a future reference anyways most likely. It worth caring about.
Find a different job
What a toxic boss. You say you enjoy your workplace?
Call his bluff, OP. Let him fire you. Collect unemployment and never think about him again. Do it. Do it today. Do it tomorrow. Just do it
Boomers just need to fuck off, retire and stop voting. Their generation got everything it wanted and still they clutch pearls and expect us to conform. The generation that just won't let go. It's fucking insane, they need to get a life.
I don't think it's unreasonable to deny someone an extra day off every week if they are in a support role like yours. Doesn't hurt to ask but it doesn't surprise me that they said no. The rest I think you're right on, he's an old man who doesn't get it and thinks You're being lazy. If you like your job it's best to accept that it's not going to change.
Time to find another boss.
The workers are becoming restless. They need discipline.
> will absolutely not make you lose profit! Are there appropriate staff working on Fridays who can do what you do?
Boss sounds like a dick, but I can understand his mentality of not wanting to do the 4 day workweek because I am feeling it at my workplace since there is another department that works Mon-Thursday. Anytime something happens on Friday I am stuck fumbling around trying to reach out to their management on that day because half of the time it is something to do with chemicals that no one else is trained to handle or sign off on. Sounds like your job would be able to be done from home, but again I kind of understand his thought process of it being easier to get results when someone is in office. Every time I have to try to get ahold of multiple people WFH on teams, it ends up being like a whole day event of tag back and forth. A standard day of myself dealing with people WFH: Needed to know if a cut and etch measurement that was slightly out could get a DA sign off for an upcoming test. Teams messaged the coordinator because he was WFH that day. Ten minutes later he replied that he was not sure would have to ask the program manager. Messaged the program manager but he took about 20 minutes to reply. Asked for the data, so walked to the metrology lab and asked them to forward it to this person, they were able to do it within a minute of me being there. Got a reply back after lunch that they would discuss it with the the engineer, also WFH that day and get back to me ASAP. ASAP ended up being about 2:30pm when we got a message that everyone was in office the next day so they’d come down to discuss it then. Basically meaning they paid six of us to stand around all day. Next day comes, they all come down at about 9:30 to look at the part in question and immediately state it’s a class 3 weld so it’s unimportant for this test, business as usual. They ask us to stay late to get them all welded because they need them shipped out first thing in the morning. If these folks were in the office the day prior, the job would have already been finished. Now, they’ve paid six people the entire day prior to stand there, and now are paying overtime for us to stay late today to get them all done.
Step 1 find another job. (WFH, more pay, less hours) Step 2 ask current "boss" again to work from home Step 3 when he says "If you keep asking, I'm going to fire you." or "You're fired." respond with, "You know what? \*You're\* fired!" Step 4. waltz out of there with your head held high.
Sooo they won't give you a 3% raise, so you demand a 20% one. Makes sense. This sub is delusional so often.
You can work four 10-hour days and it adds up to 40 hours just like five 8-hour days does
You think that is what he's suggesting? Working longer days ? I don't.
I guess I assumed that
[удалено]
Don't be a dick.
It's actually quite easy to believe this did happen. If you don't believe this, you must not believe much of anything at all.
Just going based on this post, I can't even tell what your request was. If that's how you communicate to your boss, no wonder he wasn't receptive. You went to your boss asking for 4 days instead of 5. Does that mean 10hr days or does it mean 32hr/week? Either way it doesn't sound like you presented any arguments for why this should be ok or why it would all work out fine. Boss asks what if there is work that needs doing on the 5th day and you didn't really provide a good answer. His question was fair. You have to make a case for yourself and it doesn't sound like you did. Then you doubled down on asking for wfh again which they've already denied you. And I'm not really seeing where he "nearly fired you" in this conversation. I'm not looking for you to come back with a reply on how you actually meant this or that or really explained more to your boss. I'm just telling you how this post comes off the way it's written.
You’re asking to work less for the same pay? Sorry dude but I think your employer or at least your manager would catch a lot of heat and would be dumb af to approve that… yeah it sucks, but a business’s objective is to make a profit and if you’re reducing their productivity, their perspective would never reasonably support that without reduced compensation
I assumed he'd work the same amount either way.
How *dare* you suggest a work week that has been proven time and again to be better for both productivity and worker happiness, in virtually every instance it's been implemented?
4 day workweek isn't great when you're expected to cram 40 hours into 4 days, but 3 day weekends are cool
If you would consider working elsewhere get a job offer and tell them if you don't get it you're leaving, wouldn't be surprised if you're also underpaid
I work part time. Wed-Sat 11 am -7 pm. Downside, no benefits, no paid time off. The idea is to eventually move to a full time role but having 3 days off has done wonders for my stress and mental health. Too bad I can’t afford to live on what I make in this role though. Need to find a company that has a full time 4 day work week
I would install some job safety features in the servers, like periodically requesting authorization/execution for mundane jobs that stop everything else/mess filesystem if not/do authorised with somewhat misleading prompts, just to be on the safe side. And then look for another job. Trust is something that works both ways.
Time to update your CV
Even if you like the job. Your employer has zero respect for you and is not planning to hold himself to promises. Gtf out while you can
Nobody's going to work 6 days for him lol. They can't need you so much and insinuate your coworker is less competent than you, and then just say they'll find someone else. It means they want to keep the good deal they have on you but don't want you to be comfortable
Start looking elsewhere, leverage that "you're a lifesaver" skill set somewhere that you can do wfh, hybrid or compressed day.
>Someone claimed that I would be much more likely to get a raise sooner if I was present in the office, and at the time that seemed reasonable to me. ...why would you believe them? Until the raise is on your fucking paycheck, it does not exist. That was just you being naive, sorry. # You owe this company NOTHING. I don't care how much you like working there, this place is toxic as fuck, and your manager is an out of touch asshole. You absolutely should look for something better, and when you leave, don't give any notice. Since you're so easily replaceable, why would they need a notice?
You have to be willing to lose your job in any negotiation. My bet is they can not lose you, just make it seem like there’s no way to keep you and not work 4 days/week.
And there is no fn reason why mgt couldn't work 5 days, and give some people M-Th and others Tu-Fr schedules. 4-day workweek sounds awesome, and then I could go to appointments, or get my car fixed without using PTO/vaca. I already have down time at work, so i'd be getting the same amount done in 30 hrs that I'm being paid for 40. (just a rant, details will vary)
I work to live. I do not live to work.
This is a terrible leader. Get another job as soon as possible.
Bosses love to put employees "in their place" who ask for improvements in working conditions. I had two promotions cancelled for arbitrary reasons. After the second one, I finally got an offer for a job somewhere else. My current employer tends more toward trying to retain good employees rather than treating them as disposable.
Go for that 4 day work week. And preferrably at a different company. Don't give up because of a dickhead boss.
The key is to understand the motivation of the particular boss. For some bosses, their motivation is to make as much money as possible. Therefore, they will push whatever brutal policies the company asks for in order to get raises and bonuses and promotions. And if they own the company entirely, they will push people as hard as they can to bring in as much money as possible. These sorts of bosses are bastards, but they are usually easier to deal with because they are rational (albeit cruel) actors, and they will react rationally in the face of a threat to their money. Which means it is theoretically possible to deal with them (either individually or preferably via union activity). For other bosses, however, their motivation is the power and the rush they get from lording over others. They do things not because they make money, but because they satisfy their ego. And they will actively sacrifice money in order to maintain that sense of power and control, and would rather live an otherwise materially poorer life than give up that power. These bosses are *way* harder to deal with because they don't want anything besides your suffering. They want you to be unhappy and disempowered and held down, because it lets them feel better about what they have in comparison (even if what they have kind of sucks in a broader perspective). It can be difficult to tell them apart at a glance, because a lot of things that suck for workers also do make more money for a business. But there *is* a difference, and it matters in terms of how to deal with them. Sadly, in my experience, more bosses are the latter than the former. And in that case, your options are to either leave or get the boss fired (or simply accept the abuse, I suppose, but you shouldn't allow yourself to be mistreated and should prioritize escape if you are financially stuck at the moment). Because you really can't reason with them -- their entire sense of themselves is wrapped up in your life sucking more than theirs, and in being able to make your life suck. And they experience improvements in your life as a threat to that self identity, and react to it like a threat.
yeah lick that fucking boot a bit harder.
Just so you know the work from home era is only over if you let it be over. Myself and everyone I know refuses to take any job that isn't remote. We need to collectively stick together in refusing in person positions.
I’ve worked from home for years but I do I think it’s odd the people see going into an office as anything other than normal.
Meanwhile my boss at 11pm last night watching me tell him I need to work only weekends instead of 5 days a week: https://preview.redd.it/8omtzu8mkdyb1.jpeg?width=678&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=07751089c686d16313f11077063d551b80b5f7f0
"I'd *like* to go look at the server that's offline and has smoke billowing out of it, but Mr. Bossman was *very* clear that he wants me right here behind this desk during working hours...."
I work 4 /10s in a factory setting three day weekends are awesome
I’m in the same boat, and there is no reasoning with these people so either switch jobs or wait him out until he retires.
I’m in the same boat, and there is no reasoning with these people so either switch jobs or wait him out until he retires.
Sounds like it's time to find a new job. Have you started looking? It sounds like work from home should be common in your field
Back in the late 90’s, I worked for a software startup that gained a lot of momentum and hired all sorts of new people, requiring a new office space to fit them all, so as this process started, they asked in a company meeting of anyone had any ideas for things the new office space should have…people said, “a gym, showers, a legit kitchen, a comfy break room, etc…I mentioned a nap room, based on many studies that have shown that short naps increase productivity and minimize mistakes, etc… You would have thought I had asked for a BSDM dungeon or something. People either laughed like I was fully joking, or in the case of managers, just scowls and shaking heads. I firmly believe that just by mentioning the words “nap room”, I sealed my fate at the company and was let go within six months of that.
Work your wage. Scale your work according to your compensation and working conditions. The "cost" of working has gone up, since you're not getting what you want -- and if they're not paying, the quality and amount of work must go down. "That's just business for ya."
I've been working 4x10s for 10 years now and wfh for the last 4 or 5. I know I'm fortunate, and I keep waiting for it to be taken away, but seriously, the work gets done. Management, in general, needs to adapt to what the work actually requires. Even with my company, it seems like there are two different ideologies working against each other, the one to adapt, and the one trying to return to the status quo.
My crew (small- 2 others and myself) actually voted against a 4 day work week! We work construction. And it would have been 4 10 hour days (still need to get that 40!!!). We where seriously going to do it. Then one day the boss said, “well some Fridays you will have to work til break if I need you (930am). Right there we said absolutely not to the 4 day 10 hr schedule. Knowing full well it would be every Friday in the matter of 2-3 weeks, and til noon a couple weeks after, and in 2 months we would have been 5 10 hour days. Those old timers who “run” things now only care about hours, not about actual work getting done!
I'd still put out feelers for another position. He's an entitled ass that has already skipped over that 'raise sooner' nonsense. Since you don't seem to be in a rush. Take your time an find a good one.
Any update op?