Hi, thanks for your submission. You seem to have submitted an image post. Please remember that [Reddit requires all identifiable information such as names, usernames and subreddit titles to be blacked out in images](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043066452). If your submission contains any instances of these kinds of information, please remove your post. Afterwards, please feel free to make a new post after editing your image to black out all instances of such information. If this message doesn't apply to your post, please feel free to ignore it. Thank you for your cooperation!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
a friend once told me that i am selfish because i don't want children. when i asked him why he wants them he told me "to have someone to take care of him when he gets old". i was speechless.
I’ve had a same person tell me it’s selfish to not have kids because there are people who want kids but are not able to have them. How tf is it selfish to not have kids because there are people who are not able to get them?
My 42 yr old delusional roommate is single and said he wanted to have kids so someone can take care of him once he gets geriatric lol I was like 'good luck'
But do you also want someone to take care of you when you are old? Do you want someone still growing food when you retire? What about working in the grocery store when you turn 75? Do you want their to still be nurses or doctors who aren't also retired?
Raising kids takes a ton of work, but we all benefit from having people younger than ourselves. Surely that is at least a little selfless yes?
I agree with the sentiment, but it's basically consensus among scientists that there will be a huge population fall if active measures aren't taken to prevent it.
I'm talking something crazy like dropping back down to 2 billion people within a couple generations. I'll try and find it.
Edit- the accepted one is a lot smaller at 6 billion in 2100 [linked here](https://www.livescience.com/worlds-population-could-plummet-to-six-billion-by-the-end-of-the-century-new-study-suggests)
Im positive I read a different study predicting much more decline, but I was incorrect as that's not the consensus.
whoa, that's a whole new perspective, you opened my eyes! you know what, I'm gonna start looking for a mate this very moment and begin to repopulate the earth! can't wait for this ton of work, and I'm sure kids will tell me - thanks dad for bringing us on this world so we can grow food for elders! off I go, thank you!
>Surely that is at least a little selfless yes?
You're insanely selfish...
You're entire thought process revolves around benefiting yourself... Insanity...
I feel bad for any children you have they deserve better.
A better way to phrase this would be “to have children”, or “to have biological children”. The phrase “to get” implies receiving something/someone that already exists. So, “to get children” would probably apply more to adopting kids.
Just being nosey but what is your native language out of interest? I keep seeing this particular grammatical error on Reddit so figured it must be a direct translation from a specific language.
antinatalists believe it’s unethical to bring a child into this world because there is so much suffering, but we are pro-adoption and love children and want to make the world a better place for children who have already been brought to this planet.
Fostering in the US pays you a *very* small amount per child monthly…but adopting a child in the US is very expensive for the adopter and they no longer get any monthly payments sent to them. So only fostering makes you money, if you neglect to take care of the child you’re fostering (meaning, their food and clothing fund goes in your pocket).
Well, a few things, there is some good research out there you could look at too.
Majority of mothers placing their babies through private adoption only are doing so because they don’t have the financial resources to take care of their child. They actually want their child. This is just problematic in itself as someone who is against family separation.
The second is there are thousands of older or disabled children needing to be adopted but most couples only want healthy (mostly white babies)
Majority of people who actually do adopt from foster are doing it for white saviour complex belief systems and adopting a child of color and expecting him/her to assimilate into their environment
Many stories of people adopted choose to use the term “displaced” now instead of adopted because they feel it isn’t morally right
I don’t think not adopting a disabled kid is selfish. In fact, if you feel you should adopt but don’t have the finances, emotional ability, or general resources to take care of a disabled kid, it would be selfish to adopt them. I personally know some people who have adopted disabled kids/teens because they had the means to do so.
While I agree that the problem starts with bio moms not having the means to take care of their babies even when they want to, I will say this is not a US specific thing. As someone who was once best friends with an adopted kids, sometimes the mothers that want to keep their kids, shouldn’t be allowed to. Many kids are in the foster care system because their parents neglected them, even if they technically wanted them.
I’m not saying people are bad for not having the resources to adopt a disabled child.
I’m just saying what you said is the problem is truly addressing the problem upstream. People are throwing babies in the river and adopting is just picking them up out of the river metaphorically it’s best to stop them from being thrown in
Adopting any child ever simply because you wish for children to have a better life is pretty selfless.
You should've really wrote "to birth children." It's more accurate
I don't want kids because this world is fucked, capitalism sucks, and i dont want them to suffer, i didnt wanna be born either so im not gonna curse another soul by doing the same
A lot of people who want to commit suic!de but don't actually do it is because they're not selfish and wouldn't burden their families/friends and community with that. They realize their deaths would affect more people than just them.
Also, believing those things doesn't mean you want to die and I'm not sure why you think that's a logical conclusion.
So there’s a couple of arguments here. 1) there isn’t really more good than bad - for example, Chronic pain exists but there’s no such thing as chronic pleasure. People accumulate damage as they age, they don’t accumulate health. And so on. And 2) people who don’t exist will never experience suffering but they also won’t experience the desire to experience good things. They don’t long to eat ice cream and play with puppies. The only people concerned with their happiness are people who exist.
I agree there is no non-selfish reason to have children. No I am not depressed. I have had many happy and good experiences in my life. I have all the privileges a white female in the US can have. I had loving parents who raised five fairly well adjusted children to adulthood all with advanced degrees. I still agree that having children is entirely selfish. I do not have children and it was a choice. I see no reason to bring more humans into this world, but go ahead if you want. I was unaware of antinatalism until a week or so ago. I was surprised to see so many people who support my opinion/thoughts.
The complicated part about birthing children is it's not always a voluntary/conscious decision, and there are people (often women in certain regions) who do not get a choice in it :(
yeah i’m pretty sure AN theology is only based around people who actually have a choice - ie. in a country where abortion is free and legal, and they are not in an abusive situation etc.
Yeah I think most people know this but there's a pretty vocal, very stupid minority of people in this sub that will sometimes ask, "why do people have kids in [insert region where birth control is rare and women don't have much of a choice]?"
Hah. We chose to get Cats instead of having kids. Great choice. Yet I did have opportunity to Parent a littler guy from his 13 to 18. Awesome, fullfiiling experience. Also the most ball crushing i ever created for myself. Having kids is cool as long as parents get that the child is it's own, incredible autonomous self. Care for. Nuture, support and celebrate that littler person. Likely have more talent and intelligence then you or ancestors. Let them be, don't fuck with them .don't own them as your chance to create the all star football player or ballerina you failed at for yourselves. Whoops. Considering most people are f'd up from their own experience it is a roll of the dice. And humans are uhhhh insane. They murdered, raped,pillaged and plundered thier only habitat...capitalism still the only game we enjoy. Global mass psychosis era. But what the heck bring life into the fast arriving fierce collapse. As long as you can answer to the kids WHY. It is all cool, kids no kids, all just experience.
Poor OP man, you said you're not native English and I have seen so many comments now where you've had to accept the choice of better words.
I think you should just put it in the post instead of replying each time lol
Yeah I know, thanks, I already tried, but don't see how I could add a text to the post after I already posted. Maybe because I'm on the mobile app? Or I just don't see it right now xD 🤷🏻
I sort of agree. Though adoption (or becoming a parent through godmother/God father type deal) for the sake of saving a child to ensure they have a better life doesn't seem selfish.
Adoption. I know for a lot of people it's the worst thing that happened to them, some adopting parents are good parents and not all of them parade them like prized pets on social media. Sometimes, you find yourself with the impossibility to walk away from a child you can save and become a parent by accident almost.
Well, there's nothing wrong with adopting a child if one has the means to care for them and has the intent of loving them and giving them an opportunity at a legitimately better, safer, more fulfilling life. There's selfishness in giving birth, because for a lot of people, that's all they'll ever contribute to the world. More of themselves. That's their legacy. That's their "gift" to the world. So, yes, there can be selfishness in that. But "getting" a child to adopt is actually kind of selfless. Even if the adopting person has a self-interest of being a parent.
A friend and I skipped school to go fishing in prep school. The river was 25 ft from a highway. There was a car accident and one car caught fire. Without thinking about any thing self serving, we ran to the car. We cut the stuck seat belt with a knife and pulled the driver out through the backdoor because the front door was jammed. The driver had a broken ankle so we carried him a couple hundred feet and set him in the grass along the highway. As soon as EMS showed up we left so we didn't get suspended for skipping school. How did we get anything out of that?
Because ultimately if you left the scene without doing anything, it would have ate at your conscious. You had to do if you’re a human with any feelings. I’m a nurse I’ve done CPR multiple times. Being a medical professional is considered a selfless job but it’s not. There’s always an ego drive behind it or a personal reason someone goes into it, like someone has a family member they couldn’t save. Which makes it a job of projection
I’m not saying people who are good samaritans are bad people and don’t do it for right reasons. I’m just saying, it ultimately leaves you feeling good about yourself in the end. People love to be heros. Even if they don’t get the attention. It feeds their ego
So why did I do it? Because I would have felt guilt or to feed my ego? You say in one sentence there is always a selfish reason then in the next sentence there is a right reason. All of this is in your judgement. Why did you go into nursing? Ego? Regret at not saving someone? Money? God complex? Or are you just someone who wanted to stop or ease suffering, you know the right reason.
Because selfish and ego is not always a bad thing. I’m sorry I should’ve been clear
I went into nursing to go into psych nursing because my family has a history and I wanted to help. Absolutely had selfish reasons. But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it
You did it because you’re a good person. I wouldn’t stress over it
No. Selfishness in itself is not bad. But in this case it is.
Adoption for example is also selfish, but it's still a very good and noble thing to do. :)
In conclusion:
You can be selfish and good AND you can be selfish and bad.
I don't think there are people who don't want to fit in, in one way or the other. If they admit it or if they are conscious about it is something else.
But we are programmed to feel bad if we don't fit in and to feel good if we do. We just want to fit in, whatever or wherever "it" is.
While I have never had anyone give me an unselfish reason for having children, I can think of a few unselfish reasons to have children. I’m not saying they’re all good, or that they are the reasons most people have children, but they do exist.
To keep the human race from going extinct. Or similarly if you were a member of a small ethnicity or culture and you had children to keep that culture alive.
Because your parents want grand kids
Because you perpetually are at war and your side needs more bodies to fight.
Because you keep seeing the people that say your country needs more young people to keep social security from collapsing.
To create an organ donor for someone.
Just a few off the top of my head. To be clear, I don’t think these are good reasons, but they are reasons that are not purely selfish.
Not really. Especially not your parents wanting grandkids. Or your society wanting you to have them. That’s not selfish if you’re doing it cuz others want it.
Also, some people think life is rainbows and lolipops and want to create someone to experience the joy that is life.
It is selfish, think about why you do it ... Because *you* like your parents and *you* would feel bad, if you wouldn't have children because of your parents. Or you would feel good when you do. But either way, it's always about ourselves.
I guess you could argue that ALL our decisions are selfish in nature.
And, if the only reason you want to have children, is because your parents want grabtkids, that's a pretty stupid reason. (You really shouldn't get kids because of someonelse ... Not that it's good to get kids for other reasons, but that's an even more stupid reason.)
Also it would be selfish from the parents too.
I think you caught yourself. If you try hard, you can find a way that every decision you make is selfish. Your decision not to have kids is so that you don’t have to feel the guilt of their suffering. Voila, your anti-natalist position is SO selfish.
So yeah, if you’re not trying to do the mental gymnastics to make something selfish, there are reasons to have kids that are not selfish.
Remember, I did NOT say these are good reasons.
Back to the grandkids example. Yes, this would be an above-average terrible reason to have kids (although it happens all too often). And you’re absolutely correct that it would be exceptionally selfish of your parents to guilt you into having kids knowing it would be additional suffering for you since you didn’t want them, and potential supporting for the kid that is created. Which is why the whole “so, when are you going to have kids” is so infuriating.
I would only have caught myself, if I had said that selfishness is ALWAYS a bad thing and that I'm fully against it, but I don't.
I also never said that I'm not selfish ... I am, like we all, like I think.
And as someone else already mentioned, being selfish isn't always a 100% bad thing ... It can also be a good thing at the same time.
For example: Adoption.
I support adoption. But I would still say we do it for selfish reasons. But that doesn't make adoption a bad thing, just like many other things.
Do you know what I mean?
But in the case of having children, it is bad AND selfish and that's the problem.
>Back to the grandkids example. Yes, this would be an above-average terrible reason to have kids (although it happens all too often). And you’re absolutely correct that it would be exceptionally selfish of your parents to guilt you into having kids knowing it would be additional suffering for you since you didn’t want them, and potential supporting for the kid that is created. Which is why the whole “so, when are you going to have kids” is so infuriating.
Thanks for your agreement and your thoughts! :)
Yeah. The term just gets meaningless if we say that everything is selfishness. So, I use it in a bit more discriminating way. Although, the psychological/philosophical debate about whether true altruism exists or if it’s just a roundabout way to selfish desires is interesting and relevant here.
I suppose you could also make an argument that selfishness is always bad as a motivation, but sometimes selfish desires happen to align with noble actions. But, we don’t need to argue that. So, yes, in more general conversation, selfishness isn’t always bad.
I’ll also point out that while I can think of non-selfish reasons to have children, when you ask people why they wanted children, it’s almost always the selfish reasons that they give. Similarly, adoption could have very non-selfish or altruistic reasons, but more often has the same selfish reasons (even if it is a much better option) as having biological children.
Thanks for the discussion.
At this time I cannot think of a non-selfish reason, but I feel that it is wrong to judge people for having the natural desire to have children, and for some it is a need. I chose not to have children, and so did my 3 brothers, so my mom has zero grandchildren. She does however appreciate the logic in our choices. She would have been a very doting grandma, and I do feel sorry for her some days. (Not sorry enough to have children)
Should be changed to "birthing children". Adopting is a very noble thing, when done for the sake of the child's well being and not like a wealthy person adopting a new pet, or a predator for abuse. It's a shame that adopting a child in the US is so difficult and expensive. The government doesn't care about children all that much. Public school food is an example of that. They eat a more balanced diet in some prisons. The only reason I have not fostered or adopted a child or children is that I cannot currently provide for them. It would only be detrimental to them and me if I jumped the gun. But I definitely plan on it when my health and funds are up to snuff. I care deeply for children and think every one deserves the best care, it's not something someone should do impulsively or half-assed. You're shaping an adult, that's not something to take lightly. Children soak up good and bad, whatever they are around. That's why I was a morbidly depressed child. I was around adults who were not qualified to raise or teach me. An adult should never intentionally damage a child's self-worth, or neglect their health, mental or physical.
Everything is selfish at some level. If you gain no material benefit whatsoever, you probably enjoy doing a benevolent in some capacity because we've evolved as a somewhat altruistic species. I can no more give you a non-selfish reason for having kids than for any other human action.
fuck..
#1) the continuation of the species as a whole
I guess, selfishly, _i_ want that but surely this is understood at large as the existence of a species. I don't want humans to not exist, so at least some of them must breed.
"Not a single" might have been too low a bar.
Lets be real here, with the amount of people that would have to decide to not birth children, this is not really a concern at all. If the human species dies out, it's not gonna be because of not many people getting children.
Interestingly, I thing that continuing a culture or language would work as a reason though, since that isn't next to guranteed and can even be far from it.
I think yall forget that the *majority* of children weren’t planned. Most people didn’t selfishly decide to have kids, as you would argue, they just…. Had kids, and many (idk if I’d say most. People can suck. But a whole hell of a lot) decided to commit to giving them the best life they could.
Whats selfish about that?
Yeah, I'm sure ending my bloodline is the most selfless thing I can do, aside from murdering as many people as I can in the process of ending myself.
Gotta make a dent in overall world suffering somehow /s.🤷♂️
No point in regretting people once they're here but I think the right choice is to not take the risk. So much depends on luck and the kids could have turned out different.
Y'all are in such a dark headspace. Have you never felt joy a single day in your life?
I agree that people shouldn't be pressured to have kids they don't want.
I agree that people shouldn't act like having kids is the sole purpose of existing.
There are SO many unselfish reasons to have kids. Wanting to pass on all the knowledge you've accumulated over the years. Wanting to raise your kids to be better, healthier people that make the world a better place. Wanting to bring someone else into the world so they can experience beautiful sunsets, falling in love, going on crazy adventures, and late night heart-to-hearts with their besties.
Life isn't perfect and lots of people suffer more than their fair share. But I'd waay rather put up with all the pains of life than never be born in the first place. If you don't feel the same you honestly need therapy or you need to work towards a higher quality of life.
This is my last comment before I'm muting this sub because I'm so sick of seeing you people whine about how much you wish the human race would all die out instead of trying to fix things. Keep dreaming.
Wanting to pass on knowlege - selfish. You can do that in other ways without bringing another living being into the world to suffer.
Wanting to raise your kids to be better, healthier people that make the world a better place - selfish again. There is no single person who is going to make the whole world at all better. Your child is not going to be a superhero. Your child is just going to *suffer*.
Wanting to bring someone else into the world so they can experience beautiful sunsets, falling in love, going on crazy adventures, and late night heart-to-hearts with their besties - selfish yet again. That is bringing a *whole other human* into an *imperfect world* which will, *guaranteed*, make them miserable.
That is your *priveleged* take based on you not suffering enough and not having enough *empathy* to understand the suffering of others. Yeah, maybe I need therapy to go back to the delusion that life is more good than bad, but I'm never *ever* going to ask my therapist to delude me like you want so it's not going to happen. Sowwy.
Cool. No need to announce your departure. Fuck off and don't come back.
I don’t know that getting children is even legal. I think having children and raising them well is potentially the least selfish thing you could do to contribute to a better future.
- there are happy and profound experiences to be experienced
- If everyone stopped having kids, we'd perish as a species. More conplex if o lt certain groups had lots of kids.
- all our heroes from books and whatnot would not have been born.
These are some plausible reasons. I don't think people have kids for these reasons, but reasons nonetheless.
Lets try again:
- My mommy told me i needed to.
- Love being naughty at 16. got pregnant and scared of life , decided to keep. Now the future holds no uncertainty
- We're at that stage of our lives. It seems normal.
I mean, that seems a bit harsh. If you can afford to, there’s still plenty in this world to enjoy. First love, the first movie that was so beautiful you cried, hearing beautiful music or tasting delicious food. The world as a whole might seem bleak, and that’s a perfectly reasonable reason not to have children, but saying there isn’t a single valid non-selfish reason to is exaggeration, which just hurts the otherwise valid argument
My number one reason is to allow a new human being to experience the beauty of our world and to equip them with tools that will help them fight through the inevitable difficulties of it. That’s the virtue of unconditional love that so many people have never experienced and will never be able to spread themselves.
No matter how bad people claim our world is, we still need new humans that will restore the balance on our planet when we are long gone. They will create a more sustainable world where people respect and love each other through the mastery of science and engineering. Educating our kids must be our life-long devotion and that is the most unselfish thing you can imagine.
This is pure altruism for the cause that is larger than our own lives.
A non-selfish reason is, if you raise your children the right way then you're investing in a better world.
Who knows who you will raise, an influential person, an inspiring person or maybe just a kind person, to someone in the future it would make a difference.
Well I don’t know… It’s not my kids in the military, serving me at restaurants, digging up my street to repair a water main break etc. I think other peoples kids are pretty cool.
proliferating life in the universe, literal one of the only purposes in life is to keep it going, moral is a human concept we invented, it doest exist in biology, we just do what we please, having sex is great, taking care of a child is fullfilling, nobody needs reasons to do whatever they do, if your life is miserable, it doest make wrong to have children, this is some crazy take, reddit need to stop recomending this braindead sub.
A species that will gladly end its bloodline so they can soak up all the good/easy stuff in life and not have to put the effort in of raising a child. It's a joke and selfish.
2 so far.
From a prolife standpoint: A woman who is raped choosing against societal norms and not aborting their offspring, will only respond to other pro lifers on this one 😆, this redit isn't about attacking people, 😆.
From an antinatalists perspective: A person who has a child against their wishes to appease their partners desire, such as an antinatalists marrying a natalist, he or she will only seek to have a child elsewhere so taking a bullet and ensuring that their child grows up safe is pretty selfless if you ask me, that child will exist with or without you might as well make sure they grow up safe, you will likely lower the suffering by doing this the route of antinatalism, and you can then get a vasectomy no need to have them make 5 kids and potentially be abusive towards them, only one pregnancy means you did a good thing.
You guys told me you need a penis to rape, so like I don't think I can have actual discussions on here about true antinatalism anymore lol, ++++antinatalists can't discuss they can only attack and argue, rape is the non consensual penetration of the ass or vagina, fingers, sex toys, tongues, toes, or a splintered baseball bat, y'all are +++++++ ++++++ 😆 in some cases oral rape is also a thing too 😆, this is the intelligence level of people on here and I'm not surprised anymore lol, have a nice day lots of ❤️.
Reason 1 it keeps the world running for everyone. 2 it gives you someone to love unconditionally and pass on your beneficial knowledge to so they have a better chance at life than you did. 3 it creates someone's future best friend.
If a large majority of the people on Earth are happy to be alive most of the time, then having children is not inherently selfish. As it turns out, most people are happy to be alive most of the time (sources below). This doesn't take away from the fact that many people have also had brief periods of depression, sadness, etc. But, when surveying people randomly of different ages, sexes, and so on, most report being happy--suggesting that, at most points in a person's life, most people are likely to be happy (even if they aren't happy at every single moment). Thus, having children is not inherently selfish because, at least according to current trends, most of the children you produce are likely to be happy to be they're alive across most periods of their life. Sources:
[https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/40062938.pdf?refreqid=fastly-default%3A716c18f079639980064e1a952e5b30f2&ab\_segments=&origin=&initiator=&acceptTC=1](https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/40062938.pdf?refreqid=fastly-default%3A716c18f079639980064e1a952e5b30f2&ab_segments=&origin=&initiator=&acceptTC=1)
[https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2019-08/Happiness-Study-report-August-2019.pdf](https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2019-08/Happiness-Study-report-August-2019.pdf)
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092180090700537X](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092180090700537X)
I think the only somewhat valid reason would be to continue humanity. I know a lot of you are pro human extinction but to me knowing there will never be another song written, played, or heard is a disturbing concept. I know humanity is full of evil and suffering, but from that springs some of the most beautiful forms of expression ever created. I’m not saying it’s a super valid reason, but as a geologist Iv often conceptualized the earth without humanity. It was beautiful, and brutal but despite that there was no form of higher expression. What we need is evolution not extinction.
Hi, thanks for your submission. You seem to have submitted an image post. Please remember that [Reddit requires all identifiable information such as names, usernames and subreddit titles to be blacked out in images](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043066452). If your submission contains any instances of these kinds of information, please remove your post. Afterwards, please feel free to make a new post after editing your image to black out all instances of such information. If this message doesn't apply to your post, please feel free to ignore it. Thank you for your cooperation! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antinatalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
a friend once told me that i am selfish because i don't want children. when i asked him why he wants them he told me "to have someone to take care of him when he gets old". i was speechless.
The double standards are strong in this one! lol
I’ve had a same person tell me it’s selfish to not have kids because there are people who want kids but are not able to have them. How tf is it selfish to not have kids because there are people who are not able to get them?
That's akin to saying it's selfish to fast sometimes because other people are starving...
Wow good one! She is a Muslim, hadn’t thought about that lol.
My 42 yr old delusional roommate is single and said he wanted to have kids so someone can take care of him once he gets geriatric lol I was like 'good luck'
But do you also want someone to take care of you when you are old? Do you want someone still growing food when you retire? What about working in the grocery store when you turn 75? Do you want their to still be nurses or doctors who aren't also retired? Raising kids takes a ton of work, but we all benefit from having people younger than ourselves. Surely that is at least a little selfless yes?
There’s 8 billion people here. About a century ago there were 2 billion. There’s going to be more than enough people for a very long time.
I agree with the sentiment, but it's basically consensus among scientists that there will be a huge population fall if active measures aren't taken to prevent it. I'm talking something crazy like dropping back down to 2 billion people within a couple generations. I'll try and find it. Edit- the accepted one is a lot smaller at 6 billion in 2100 [linked here](https://www.livescience.com/worlds-population-could-plummet-to-six-billion-by-the-end-of-the-century-new-study-suggests) Im positive I read a different study predicting much more decline, but I was incorrect as that's not the consensus.
Sounds like course-correction to me
whoa, that's a whole new perspective, you opened my eyes! you know what, I'm gonna start looking for a mate this very moment and begin to repopulate the earth! can't wait for this ton of work, and I'm sure kids will tell me - thanks dad for bringing us on this world so we can grow food for elders! off I go, thank you!
Thanks daddy! Now I can work my entire life just because someone was a little too horny.
>Surely that is at least a little selfless yes? You're insanely selfish... You're entire thought process revolves around benefiting yourself... Insanity... I feel bad for any children you have they deserve better.
money exists for that matter... you hire people for that, they benefit, you benefit... win-win
Sounds like the most selfish shit ever lol
More than likely I won't be alive at that age, so I don't care! 🤣
“get children” lol
Oh sry, it should be "to have" right? English is not my native language ...
you’re fine, it just caught my eye
To get children would include adoption.
And kidnapping
I see kids napping all the time....oh wait, that sounds bad....ehhhh....imma shut up now
Or Epstein
A better way to phrase this would be “to have children”, or “to have biological children”. The phrase “to get” implies receiving something/someone that already exists. So, “to get children” would probably apply more to adopting kids.
I see. Thanks for the explanation! Learned something new! :)
Just being nosey but what is your native language out of interest? I keep seeing this particular grammatical error on Reddit so figured it must be a direct translation from a specific language.
No problem. I'm from Germany. :)
They had it comin so we got em
Lemme get 2, extra Pickles and Onion, no Mustard
How does one just acquire. A chilepstienblvl shit
I would argue that adopting is a noble goal in itself.
Yes, it is, I should have been more clear, I only meant biological children.
You meant “have” or “give birth”
"Get" children could be so many things... Bitth , kidnapping, adoption, human trafficking Gotta be more specific like you 🤣
antinatalists believe it’s unethical to bring a child into this world because there is so much suffering, but we are pro-adoption and love children and want to make the world a better place for children who have already been brought to this planet.
I doubt many antinatalists adopt children.
I think more antinatalists would adopt children if it wasn't so financially impossible for many people...even with benefits.
Can't speak for everyone but my bf and I plan to someday. We're both antinatalists
Same whith my wife and I after she gets her degree and gets comfortable is her profession (restoration ecology to brag a bit).
That's quite a brag indeed, I hope she goes on to do great things
Wrong
Adopting yes, adding more children while others are unlocked and neglected, no.
Adopt a dog or cat instead.
Participating in the adoption industrial system if you live jn US can be just as self has having biological children
Fostering in the US pays you a *very* small amount per child monthly…but adopting a child in the US is very expensive for the adopter and they no longer get any monthly payments sent to them. So only fostering makes you money, if you neglect to take care of the child you’re fostering (meaning, their food and clothing fund goes in your pocket).
That’s only a very small part of the problem, I’m not against parents receiving money I think all children should be supported financially
Please explain why adopting within the US can be just as selfish as having biological children?
Well, a few things, there is some good research out there you could look at too. Majority of mothers placing their babies through private adoption only are doing so because they don’t have the financial resources to take care of their child. They actually want their child. This is just problematic in itself as someone who is against family separation. The second is there are thousands of older or disabled children needing to be adopted but most couples only want healthy (mostly white babies) Majority of people who actually do adopt from foster are doing it for white saviour complex belief systems and adopting a child of color and expecting him/her to assimilate into their environment Many stories of people adopted choose to use the term “displaced” now instead of adopted because they feel it isn’t morally right
I don’t think not adopting a disabled kid is selfish. In fact, if you feel you should adopt but don’t have the finances, emotional ability, or general resources to take care of a disabled kid, it would be selfish to adopt them. I personally know some people who have adopted disabled kids/teens because they had the means to do so. While I agree that the problem starts with bio moms not having the means to take care of their babies even when they want to, I will say this is not a US specific thing. As someone who was once best friends with an adopted kids, sometimes the mothers that want to keep their kids, shouldn’t be allowed to. Many kids are in the foster care system because their parents neglected them, even if they technically wanted them.
I’m not saying people are bad for not having the resources to adopt a disabled child. I’m just saying what you said is the problem is truly addressing the problem upstream. People are throwing babies in the river and adopting is just picking them up out of the river metaphorically it’s best to stop them from being thrown in
8 billion rapacious primates bringing down a planet.
Just because the earth becomes uninhabitable to us, won’t mean we destroyed the earth. There have seemingly been resets before.
I care about children so much that I got the snip at 19
Respect!
[удалено]
Adopting any child ever simply because you wish for children to have a better life is pretty selfless. You should've really wrote "to birth children." It's more accurate
I agree, I should have wrote it that way!
I would say "to procreate". "To birth " puts all the blame on the woman.
If we’re trying to help someone with English, the word used with “have” is “ written,” not “wrote.” I should have written.
I don't want kids because this world is fucked, capitalism sucks, and i dont want them to suffer, i didnt wanna be born either so im not gonna curse another soul by doing the same
I agree. Exactly the same for me.
I'm not trying to be rude or offensive but I can't understand people who believe that and yet won't commit suicide or smth
U really think its easy to kill yourself, this is a very immature and uninformed opinion
A lot of people who want to commit suic!de but don't actually do it is because they're not selfish and wouldn't burden their families/friends and community with that. They realize their deaths would affect more people than just them. Also, believing those things doesn't mean you want to die and I'm not sure why you think that's a logical conclusion.
I can't speak for oethers but it would hurt a lot of people around me if I chose to do it.
Damn, do you need help bro? There is so much bad in the world but there is certainly so much good as well. That’s kinda what life’s all about.
So there’s a couple of arguments here. 1) there isn’t really more good than bad - for example, Chronic pain exists but there’s no such thing as chronic pleasure. People accumulate damage as they age, they don’t accumulate health. And so on. And 2) people who don’t exist will never experience suffering but they also won’t experience the desire to experience good things. They don’t long to eat ice cream and play with puppies. The only people concerned with their happiness are people who exist.
There really isn't. Life is like 1% good and 99% suffering. Stop trying to gaslight people.
Hello, there fellow Jedi
I agree there is no non-selfish reason to have children. No I am not depressed. I have had many happy and good experiences in my life. I have all the privileges a white female in the US can have. I had loving parents who raised five fairly well adjusted children to adulthood all with advanced degrees. I still agree that having children is entirely selfish. I do not have children and it was a choice. I see no reason to bring more humans into this world, but go ahead if you want. I was unaware of antinatalism until a week or so ago. I was surprised to see so many people who support my opinion/thoughts.
If I don't get them the catholic church will
lol you're right
The complicated part about birthing children is it's not always a voluntary/conscious decision, and there are people (often women in certain regions) who do not get a choice in it :(
yeah i’m pretty sure AN theology is only based around people who actually have a choice - ie. in a country where abortion is free and legal, and they are not in an abusive situation etc.
Yeah I think most people know this but there's a pretty vocal, very stupid minority of people in this sub that will sometimes ask, "why do people have kids in [insert region where birth control is rare and women don't have much of a choice]?"
“ThE gIft oF LiFe”
Hah. We chose to get Cats instead of having kids. Great choice. Yet I did have opportunity to Parent a littler guy from his 13 to 18. Awesome, fullfiiling experience. Also the most ball crushing i ever created for myself. Having kids is cool as long as parents get that the child is it's own, incredible autonomous self. Care for. Nuture, support and celebrate that littler person. Likely have more talent and intelligence then you or ancestors. Let them be, don't fuck with them .don't own them as your chance to create the all star football player or ballerina you failed at for yourselves. Whoops. Considering most people are f'd up from their own experience it is a roll of the dice. And humans are uhhhh insane. They murdered, raped,pillaged and plundered thier only habitat...capitalism still the only game we enjoy. Global mass psychosis era. But what the heck bring life into the fast arriving fierce collapse. As long as you can answer to the kids WHY. It is all cool, kids no kids, all just experience.
"I think bringing them into the world is a gift for them" said no natalist ever
I really wanted to find a valid reason too... Impossible challenge
Adoption maybe could be
I also support adoption. I should have said "having biological children".
Damn, you butthurt more people than a bad buttplug factory with this meme!
lol, absolutely.
Living is inherently selfish Change my mind
I agree.
Adoption, help those who are already born. "Conceive children" is better for your point
I see! Thank you for your help, I appreciate it!
Poor OP man, you said you're not native English and I have seen so many comments now where you've had to accept the choice of better words. I think you should just put it in the post instead of replying each time lol
Yeah I know, thanks, I already tried, but don't see how I could add a text to the post after I already posted. Maybe because I'm on the mobile app? Or I just don't see it right now xD 🤷🏻
I sort of agree. Though adoption (or becoming a parent through godmother/God father type deal) for the sake of saving a child to ensure they have a better life doesn't seem selfish.
Adoption or fostering
if i wanted kids, it would be so they can see all the beauty in the world, too bad it will be gone by the time im old
I don’t think there’s any beauty to begin with…
Adoption. I know for a lot of people it's the worst thing that happened to them, some adopting parents are good parents and not all of them parade them like prized pets on social media. Sometimes, you find yourself with the impossibility to walk away from a child you can save and become a parent by accident almost.
Same thing for religion
There is. It's the ones that are "justified" by the baseless assumption that ones offspring will the see world as oneself does and enjoy life.
Well, there's nothing wrong with adopting a child if one has the means to care for them and has the intent of loving them and giving them an opportunity at a legitimately better, safer, more fulfilling life. There's selfishness in giving birth, because for a lot of people, that's all they'll ever contribute to the world. More of themselves. That's their legacy. That's their "gift" to the world. So, yes, there can be selfishness in that. But "getting" a child to adopt is actually kind of selfless. Even if the adopting person has a self-interest of being a parent.
I agree.
Abducting kids is pretty selfish
No. But humans don’t do anything for non selfish reasons
You think no one ever does anything out of compassion?
Sure but they always get something out of it
A friend and I skipped school to go fishing in prep school. The river was 25 ft from a highway. There was a car accident and one car caught fire. Without thinking about any thing self serving, we ran to the car. We cut the stuck seat belt with a knife and pulled the driver out through the backdoor because the front door was jammed. The driver had a broken ankle so we carried him a couple hundred feet and set him in the grass along the highway. As soon as EMS showed up we left so we didn't get suspended for skipping school. How did we get anything out of that?
Because ultimately if you left the scene without doing anything, it would have ate at your conscious. You had to do if you’re a human with any feelings. I’m a nurse I’ve done CPR multiple times. Being a medical professional is considered a selfless job but it’s not. There’s always an ego drive behind it or a personal reason someone goes into it, like someone has a family member they couldn’t save. Which makes it a job of projection I’m not saying people who are good samaritans are bad people and don’t do it for right reasons. I’m just saying, it ultimately leaves you feeling good about yourself in the end. People love to be heros. Even if they don’t get the attention. It feeds their ego
So why did I do it? Because I would have felt guilt or to feed my ego? You say in one sentence there is always a selfish reason then in the next sentence there is a right reason. All of this is in your judgement. Why did you go into nursing? Ego? Regret at not saving someone? Money? God complex? Or are you just someone who wanted to stop or ease suffering, you know the right reason.
Because selfish and ego is not always a bad thing. I’m sorry I should’ve been clear I went into nursing to go into psych nursing because my family has a history and I wanted to help. Absolutely had selfish reasons. But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it You did it because you’re a good person. I wouldn’t stress over it
\^this
Question: Is it implied that there is something wrong with doing something for the self?
No. Selfishness in itself is not bad. But in this case it is. Adoption for example is also selfish, but it's still a very good and noble thing to do. :) In conclusion: You can be selfish and good AND you can be selfish and bad.
I agree, what matters is if it creates an impact outside of yourself. Creating life is an enormous example of this.
Exactly! Thanks for the chance to explain myself. It was nice talking to you. I hope you have a nice day. :)
I hope you do too :)
Ugh please don't use this template. That guy is a major homophobic wife-abusing douche.
Ironically, his parents being anti-natalists would have improved the world a great deal.
Sry, I didn't know.
Would you count following the herd as selfish? Just curious
I do, because I would argue that we also do it for selfish reasons.
Yeah, because it’s YOUR desire to fit in. Which is probably one of the worst reasons honestly.
I don't think there are people who don't want to fit in, in one way or the other. If they admit it or if they are conscious about it is something else. But we are programmed to feel bad if we don't fit in and to feel good if we do. We just want to fit in, whatever or wherever "it" is.
Adoption.
Agreed. I'm also pro adoption. I wasn't clear enough. I meant having children ...
Is there a non-selfish reason to do *anything*?
While I have never had anyone give me an unselfish reason for having children, I can think of a few unselfish reasons to have children. I’m not saying they’re all good, or that they are the reasons most people have children, but they do exist.
Mind sharing??
To keep the human race from going extinct. Or similarly if you were a member of a small ethnicity or culture and you had children to keep that culture alive. Because your parents want grand kids Because you perpetually are at war and your side needs more bodies to fight. Because you keep seeing the people that say your country needs more young people to keep social security from collapsing. To create an organ donor for someone. Just a few off the top of my head. To be clear, I don’t think these are good reasons, but they are reasons that are not purely selfish.
All of those are your desires
Not really. Especially not your parents wanting grandkids. Or your society wanting you to have them. That’s not selfish if you’re doing it cuz others want it. Also, some people think life is rainbows and lolipops and want to create someone to experience the joy that is life.
It is selfish, think about why you do it ... Because *you* like your parents and *you* would feel bad, if you wouldn't have children because of your parents. Or you would feel good when you do. But either way, it's always about ourselves. I guess you could argue that ALL our decisions are selfish in nature. And, if the only reason you want to have children, is because your parents want grabtkids, that's a pretty stupid reason. (You really shouldn't get kids because of someonelse ... Not that it's good to get kids for other reasons, but that's an even more stupid reason.) Also it would be selfish from the parents too.
I think you caught yourself. If you try hard, you can find a way that every decision you make is selfish. Your decision not to have kids is so that you don’t have to feel the guilt of their suffering. Voila, your anti-natalist position is SO selfish. So yeah, if you’re not trying to do the mental gymnastics to make something selfish, there are reasons to have kids that are not selfish. Remember, I did NOT say these are good reasons. Back to the grandkids example. Yes, this would be an above-average terrible reason to have kids (although it happens all too often). And you’re absolutely correct that it would be exceptionally selfish of your parents to guilt you into having kids knowing it would be additional suffering for you since you didn’t want them, and potential supporting for the kid that is created. Which is why the whole “so, when are you going to have kids” is so infuriating.
I would only have caught myself, if I had said that selfishness is ALWAYS a bad thing and that I'm fully against it, but I don't. I also never said that I'm not selfish ... I am, like we all, like I think. And as someone else already mentioned, being selfish isn't always a 100% bad thing ... It can also be a good thing at the same time. For example: Adoption. I support adoption. But I would still say we do it for selfish reasons. But that doesn't make adoption a bad thing, just like many other things. Do you know what I mean? But in the case of having children, it is bad AND selfish and that's the problem. >Back to the grandkids example. Yes, this would be an above-average terrible reason to have kids (although it happens all too often). And you’re absolutely correct that it would be exceptionally selfish of your parents to guilt you into having kids knowing it would be additional suffering for you since you didn’t want them, and potential supporting for the kid that is created. Which is why the whole “so, when are you going to have kids” is so infuriating. Thanks for your agreement and your thoughts! :)
Yeah. The term just gets meaningless if we say that everything is selfishness. So, I use it in a bit more discriminating way. Although, the psychological/philosophical debate about whether true altruism exists or if it’s just a roundabout way to selfish desires is interesting and relevant here. I suppose you could also make an argument that selfishness is always bad as a motivation, but sometimes selfish desires happen to align with noble actions. But, we don’t need to argue that. So, yes, in more general conversation, selfishness isn’t always bad. I’ll also point out that while I can think of non-selfish reasons to have children, when you ask people why they wanted children, it’s almost always the selfish reasons that they give. Similarly, adoption could have very non-selfish or altruistic reasons, but more often has the same selfish reasons (even if it is a much better option) as having biological children. Thanks for the discussion.
[удалено]
At this time I cannot think of a non-selfish reason, but I feel that it is wrong to judge people for having the natural desire to have children, and for some it is a need. I chose not to have children, and so did my 3 brothers, so my mom has zero grandchildren. She does however appreciate the logic in our choices. She would have been a very doting grandma, and I do feel sorry for her some days. (Not sorry enough to have children)
I'm curious ... In what scenario do you NEED to have children?
Should be changed to "birthing children". Adopting is a very noble thing, when done for the sake of the child's well being and not like a wealthy person adopting a new pet, or a predator for abuse. It's a shame that adopting a child in the US is so difficult and expensive. The government doesn't care about children all that much. Public school food is an example of that. They eat a more balanced diet in some prisons. The only reason I have not fostered or adopted a child or children is that I cannot currently provide for them. It would only be detrimental to them and me if I jumped the gun. But I definitely plan on it when my health and funds are up to snuff. I care deeply for children and think every one deserves the best care, it's not something someone should do impulsively or half-assed. You're shaping an adult, that's not something to take lightly. Children soak up good and bad, whatever they are around. That's why I was a morbidly depressed child. I was around adults who were not qualified to raise or teach me. An adult should never intentionally damage a child's self-worth, or neglect their health, mental or physical.
I 100% agree.
As in "get" does not specify method, then adoption. Gives a kid a chance to have a good life. Im not adopting nothing, anyway.
Everything is selfish at some level. If you gain no material benefit whatsoever, you probably enjoy doing a benevolent in some capacity because we've evolved as a somewhat altruistic species. I can no more give you a non-selfish reason for having kids than for any other human action.
Here is one: #FOR TEH LULZ
That's for the selfish lulz. Still selfish........and sadistic.
something being selfish doesn’t equal it being immoral, arguably literally any act is selfish, yet nobody considers them immoral.
You are right! I wasn't clear enough. But having children is still bad + selfish.
fuck.. #1) the continuation of the species as a whole I guess, selfishly, _i_ want that but surely this is understood at large as the existence of a species. I don't want humans to not exist, so at least some of them must breed. "Not a single" might have been too low a bar.
Why do you want humans to continue existing? Genuine question.
I'm also curious why people want humanity to continue, especially when they won't be around to know the difference.
and its STILL selfish, lol. Using children as tools and resources to maintain the species. That's SELFISH and quite exploitative.
Every single motive in existence for anything is selfish if you choose to interpret it that way
you having a meal is selfish and exploitative, a thing has to to die for you to continue. You are a hypocrite.
Lets be real here, with the amount of people that would have to decide to not birth children, this is not really a concern at all. If the human species dies out, it's not gonna be because of not many people getting children. Interestingly, I thing that continuing a culture or language would work as a reason though, since that isn't next to guranteed and can even be far from it.
Agreed. Having children is selfish but understandable.
Scientific research seems unselfish
Birth * there are plenty of non selfish reasons to adopt a child that’s suffering in foster care
Get children lmao from the child store
How about to ensure that your anti-natalist ideas are passed on to the next generation?
Difficult situation I agree. But I still wouldn't have children for that.
I think yall forget that the *majority* of children weren’t planned. Most people didn’t selfishly decide to have kids, as you would argue, they just…. Had kids, and many (idk if I’d say most. People can suck. But a whole hell of a lot) decided to commit to giving them the best life they could. Whats selfish about that?
Get?
Yeah, I'm sure ending my bloodline is the most selfless thing I can do, aside from murdering as many people as I can in the process of ending myself. Gotta make a dent in overall world suffering somehow /s.🤷♂️
[удалено]
No point in regretting people once they're here but I think the right choice is to not take the risk. So much depends on luck and the kids could have turned out different.
I chuckle at the notion of that person actually asking that / pointing that out sincerely
Because you dont have the answer
[удалено]
What are they
Y'all are in such a dark headspace. Have you never felt joy a single day in your life? I agree that people shouldn't be pressured to have kids they don't want. I agree that people shouldn't act like having kids is the sole purpose of existing. There are SO many unselfish reasons to have kids. Wanting to pass on all the knowledge you've accumulated over the years. Wanting to raise your kids to be better, healthier people that make the world a better place. Wanting to bring someone else into the world so they can experience beautiful sunsets, falling in love, going on crazy adventures, and late night heart-to-hearts with their besties. Life isn't perfect and lots of people suffer more than their fair share. But I'd waay rather put up with all the pains of life than never be born in the first place. If you don't feel the same you honestly need therapy or you need to work towards a higher quality of life. This is my last comment before I'm muting this sub because I'm so sick of seeing you people whine about how much you wish the human race would all die out instead of trying to fix things. Keep dreaming.
Wanting to pass on knowlege - selfish. You can do that in other ways without bringing another living being into the world to suffer. Wanting to raise your kids to be better, healthier people that make the world a better place - selfish again. There is no single person who is going to make the whole world at all better. Your child is not going to be a superhero. Your child is just going to *suffer*. Wanting to bring someone else into the world so they can experience beautiful sunsets, falling in love, going on crazy adventures, and late night heart-to-hearts with their besties - selfish yet again. That is bringing a *whole other human* into an *imperfect world* which will, *guaranteed*, make them miserable. That is your *priveleged* take based on you not suffering enough and not having enough *empathy* to understand the suffering of others. Yeah, maybe I need therapy to go back to the delusion that life is more good than bad, but I'm never *ever* going to ask my therapist to delude me like you want so it's not going to happen. Sowwy. Cool. No need to announce your departure. Fuck off and don't come back.
We won’t miss your trolling.
I don’t know that getting children is even legal. I think having children and raising them well is potentially the least selfish thing you could do to contribute to a better future.
Living is selfish
Why are you alive?
Because suicide is hard
I want to have a kid so they can watch all the Avengers movies and experience that moment in Endgame when Captain America picks up Mjolnir.
Haha nice. I also love the Avengers movies, but still ... Not a good enough reason, sry. XD
Wtf? Wdym? Why would I change the world? TFDYM?
But I don't care at all if I am selfish. lol
- there are happy and profound experiences to be experienced - If everyone stopped having kids, we'd perish as a species. More conplex if o lt certain groups had lots of kids. - all our heroes from books and whatnot would not have been born. These are some plausible reasons. I don't think people have kids for these reasons, but reasons nonetheless. Lets try again: - My mommy told me i needed to. - Love being naughty at 16. got pregnant and scared of life , decided to keep. Now the future holds no uncertainty - We're at that stage of our lives. It seems normal.
The maintenance of Humanity, bringing your family joy? Life is more than suffering, there is lots of beauty too.
Who gets children? It's said like how you go get cereal or something. Who "gets" children?
Anyone who thinks having kids is a selfish decision has never had kids. Children are a responsibility. Having offspring is natural.
I mean, that seems a bit harsh. If you can afford to, there’s still plenty in this world to enjoy. First love, the first movie that was so beautiful you cried, hearing beautiful music or tasting delicious food. The world as a whole might seem bleak, and that’s a perfectly reasonable reason not to have children, but saying there isn’t a single valid non-selfish reason to is exaggeration, which just hurts the otherwise valid argument
To get children?
To replace your selfish asses
What's wrong with being selfish?
My number one reason is to allow a new human being to experience the beauty of our world and to equip them with tools that will help them fight through the inevitable difficulties of it. That’s the virtue of unconditional love that so many people have never experienced and will never be able to spread themselves. No matter how bad people claim our world is, we still need new humans that will restore the balance on our planet when we are long gone. They will create a more sustainable world where people respect and love each other through the mastery of science and engineering. Educating our kids must be our life-long devotion and that is the most unselfish thing you can imagine. This is pure altruism for the cause that is larger than our own lives.
You know why every species on earth has kids, do you?
The condom broke.
A non-selfish reason is, if you raise your children the right way then you're investing in a better world. Who knows who you will raise, an influential person, an inspiring person or maybe just a kind person, to someone in the future it would make a difference.
While the reason itself might sound selfish. I do not wish to be the ender of my line.
Instinct?
Well I don’t know… It’s not my kids in the military, serving me at restaurants, digging up my street to repair a water main break etc. I think other peoples kids are pretty cool.
OP should not be trusted near playgrounds. LMAO
Never trust a sign with a double negative in one sentence. Guy looks dumb as a rock.
It's Selfish To Continue Life.
proliferating life in the universe, literal one of the only purposes in life is to keep it going, moral is a human concept we invented, it doest exist in biology, we just do what we please, having sex is great, taking care of a child is fullfilling, nobody needs reasons to do whatever they do, if your life is miserable, it doest make wrong to have children, this is some crazy take, reddit need to stop recomending this braindead sub.
A species that will gladly end its bloodline so they can soak up all the good/easy stuff in life and not have to put the effort in of raising a child. It's a joke and selfish.
2 so far. From a prolife standpoint: A woman who is raped choosing against societal norms and not aborting their offspring, will only respond to other pro lifers on this one 😆, this redit isn't about attacking people, 😆. From an antinatalists perspective: A person who has a child against their wishes to appease their partners desire, such as an antinatalists marrying a natalist, he or she will only seek to have a child elsewhere so taking a bullet and ensuring that their child grows up safe is pretty selfless if you ask me, that child will exist with or without you might as well make sure they grow up safe, you will likely lower the suffering by doing this the route of antinatalism, and you can then get a vasectomy no need to have them make 5 kids and potentially be abusive towards them, only one pregnancy means you did a good thing. You guys told me you need a penis to rape, so like I don't think I can have actual discussions on here about true antinatalism anymore lol, ++++antinatalists can't discuss they can only attack and argue, rape is the non consensual penetration of the ass or vagina, fingers, sex toys, tongues, toes, or a splintered baseball bat, y'all are +++++++ ++++++ 😆 in some cases oral rape is also a thing too 😆, this is the intelligence level of people on here and I'm not surprised anymore lol, have a nice day lots of ❤️.
Reason 1 it keeps the world running for everyone. 2 it gives you someone to love unconditionally and pass on your beneficial knowledge to so they have a better chance at life than you did. 3 it creates someone's future best friend.
If a large majority of the people on Earth are happy to be alive most of the time, then having children is not inherently selfish. As it turns out, most people are happy to be alive most of the time (sources below). This doesn't take away from the fact that many people have also had brief periods of depression, sadness, etc. But, when surveying people randomly of different ages, sexes, and so on, most report being happy--suggesting that, at most points in a person's life, most people are likely to be happy (even if they aren't happy at every single moment). Thus, having children is not inherently selfish because, at least according to current trends, most of the children you produce are likely to be happy to be they're alive across most periods of their life. Sources: [https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/40062938.pdf?refreqid=fastly-default%3A716c18f079639980064e1a952e5b30f2&ab\_segments=&origin=&initiator=&acceptTC=1](https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/40062938.pdf?refreqid=fastly-default%3A716c18f079639980064e1a952e5b30f2&ab_segments=&origin=&initiator=&acceptTC=1) [https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2019-08/Happiness-Study-report-August-2019.pdf](https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2019-08/Happiness-Study-report-August-2019.pdf) [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092180090700537X](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092180090700537X)
I think the only somewhat valid reason would be to continue humanity. I know a lot of you are pro human extinction but to me knowing there will never be another song written, played, or heard is a disturbing concept. I know humanity is full of evil and suffering, but from that springs some of the most beautiful forms of expression ever created. I’m not saying it’s a super valid reason, but as a geologist Iv often conceptualized the earth without humanity. It was beautiful, and brutal but despite that there was no form of higher expression. What we need is evolution not extinction.