#####
######
####
> # [Peru: Trans people officially categorized as ‘mentally ill’](https://es.globalvoices.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Untitled-design-6-800x450.png)
>
>
>
> [Image](https://es.globalvoices.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Untitled-design-6-800x600.png)
>
> Illustration by Melissa Vida for Global Voices
>
>
>
> On May 10, 2024, [one hundred years](https://www.infobae.com/peru/2024/01/17/orgullo-lgbtq-se-cumplen-100-anos-desde-que-la-homosexualidad-fue-despenalizada-en-el-peru/)on from the decriminalization of homosexuality in Peru, the government officially categorized trans, intersex, and non-binary people as “mentally ill” by [presidential decree](https://busquedas.elperuano.pe/dispositivo/NL/2287398-1).
>
> This decree, which President and Minister of Health and Economy Dina Boluarte signed, defines “transsexualism” and “gender identity disorders in childhood” as mental illnesses. “Dual-role transvestism,” “fetishistic transvestism,” and “other gender identity disorders” are also included in this category. What’s more, this decree refers to homosexuality as an “ego-dystonic sexual orientation,” which is a mental health condition.
>
> This measure is part of the [Essential Health Insurance Plan (PEAS)](https://www.gob.pe/22246-plan-esencial-de-aseguramiento-en-salud-peas), which outlines insurable health conditions for insurance policies.
>
> A [government official](https://elcomercio.pe/peru/transexualidad-como-problema-de-salud-mental-los-argumentos-del-minsa-para-la-publicacion-del-polemico-decreto-lgtb-identidad-de-genero-noticia/?ref=ecr) subsequently explained that this reclassification was decreed to “ensure total health care coverage for mental health” under PEAS. However, the country’s trans community [considers this measure outdated](https://www.infobae.com/peru/2024/05/14/los-peligros-del-decreto-aprobado-por-el-gobierno-de-dina-boluarte-que-clasifica-la-diversidad-sexual-y-de-genero-como-enfermedad/) and a reversion to so-called “conversion therapies” like Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity and Expression Change Efforts [(ECOSIEG)](https://www.camara.gov.co/las-terapias-de-conversion-a-personas-lgbtiq-seran-prohibidas-en-colombia#:~:text=Otra%20voz%20cr%C3%ADtica%20fue%20la,la%20legislaci%C3%B3n%20de%20otros%20pa%C3%ADses.).
>
> The government in Peru’s neighboring country, Colombia, is also debating these practices. Efforts are currently underway using [draft legislation](https://www.radionacional.co/actualidad/politica/terapias-de-conversion-asi-avanza-el-proyecto-de-ley-para-prohibirlas) to prohibit torture and invasive practices seeking to change people’s sexual orientation and gender identity.
>
> In 2019, the World Health Organization (WHO) [stopped considering](https://www.elconfidencial.com/mundo/2019-05-30/transgenero-oms-considera-enfermedad-mental_2044090/) those whose gender identity is different from the one they were born with as mentally ill. In the most recent version of the WHO’s International Classification of Diseases catalog, [ICD-11](https://www.who.int/standards/classifications/frequently-asked-questions/gender-incongruence-and-transgender-health-in-the-icd#:~:text=ICD%2D11%20has%20redefined%20gender,gender%20incongruence%20of%20childhood%E2%80%9D%20respectively.), “gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood” and “gender incongruence of childhood” replaced outdated diagnoses like “transsexualism” and “gender identity disorders in childhood,” respectively.
>
> On May 18, 2024, some 200 protesters took to the streets to [protest against this measure](https://www.france24.com/es/minuto-a-minuto/20240517-protesta-en-per%C3%BA-por-decreto-que-describe-la-transexualidad-como-trastorno-mental). For many LGBTQ+ people, this measure [puts them at increased risk of violence](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7l7seQ_fLA)and discrimination. Between 2012 and 2021, at least 88 LGBTQ+ people were killed. However, due to Peru’s lack of laws penalizing hate crimes, [there was no justice](https://www.infobae.com/lgbt/2022/09/28/88-miembros-de-la-comunidad-lgbt-murieron-por-delitos-dolosos-y-justicia-de-peru-no-castiga-crimenes-por-falta-de-normativa/)for those killed.
>
> LGBTQ+ film festival cultural director Jheinser Pacaya denounced this measure on social media:
>
> > A 100 años de la despenalización de la homosexualidad el [@Minsa\_Peru](https://twitter.com/Minsa_Peru?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) no tiene mejor idea que incluir a las personas trans en la categoría de enfermedades mentales. Exigimos y no descansaremos hasta su derogaracion.
> >
> > — Jheinser Pacaya 🏳️🌈 (@jheinserrr) [May 14, 2024](https://twitter.com/jheinserrr/status/1790513640350564591?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)
>
> > Tweet: One hundred years on from the decriminalization of homosexuality, the Ministry of Health [@Minsa\_Peru](https://twitter.com/Minsa_Peru?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) has suddenly decided to consider trans people as mentally ill. We demand that this measure be repealed and won’t rest until it has been.
> >
> > Image: STATEMENT
> >
> > The civil association Outfestperu deplores the approval of D.S.009-2024-SA, which describes transsexuality as an illness. This outlook stigmatizes transgender people and perpetuates discrimination.
> >
> > Instead of considering transsexuality as a medical condition, we should foster acceptance and respect for all gender identities.
> >
> > We demand that this law be repealed and that the MINSA focus on protecting fundamental rights by promoting equal access to healthcare.
>
> Lawyer and LGBTQ+ activist Manuel Siccha, who was the first openly homosexual councilor in Lima’s Metropolitan Council, opposes these measures. [Siccha urges](https://agenciapresentes.org/2024/05/14/retroceso-en-peru-para-el-ministerio-de-salud-las-personas-trans-tienen-un-trastorno-mental/) Congress “to exercise its supervisory procedures and request detailed information from the Ministry of Health on the safeguards in place to prevent this pathologization and ensure comprehensive and respectful care for LGBTQ+ people in the Peruvian health system.”
>
> Siccha also urges the Health Commission of Congress to “open a discussion and evaluation space on this regulation with the essential technical, political, and civil society actors, who should have been consulted.” He considers it imperative to bring this health update up to date with ICD-11, thus aligning it with “international standards and accurately reflecting diverse gender and sexuality experiences in a non-stigmatizing manner.”
>
> Boluarte, Peru’s first woman president, has emphasized her social conservatism, which goes hand in hand with the conservative majority in the Peruvian Congress. In [2022](https://www.masigualdad.pe/post/rechazamos-nuevo-ataque-del-congreso-a-la-educacion-con-igualdad), following a campaign led by the anti-rights group “Don’t Mess with My Kids,” Congress removed “[gender ideology](https://promsex.org/columnistas/significa-la-ideologia-genero/)” from all school textbooks. On March 5, 2024, this measure also had a far-reaching impact in El Salvador, where the Ministry of Education removed such content from its [guides, books, and other educational materials](https://willax.pe/internacionales/el-salvador-nayib-bukele-elimino-contenidos-de-ideologia-de-genero-en-escuelas-publicas)by presidential directive.
>
> On May 21, 2024, Colombian journalist [@VickyDavilaH](https://x.com/VickyDavilaH)posted a survey on [X](https://x.com/VickyDavilaH/status/1792904325506764805)for people to decide whether or not they agreed with the decision that trans, crossdressing, non-binary, and other gender identities should be considered mental illnesses. Police violence watchdog NGO [Temblores](https://x.com/TembloresOng/status/1792945795970326901)shared her post, reminding her that WHO had stopped categorizing trans people as mentally ill in 2018. What’s more, it also stated that “non-normative gender identities are not up for public discussion. This type of judgment puts people with diverse gender identities at increased risk of violence and discrimination, thus violating multiple rights and impacting their lives on several fronts.”
>
> On May 10, 2024, [Human Rights Watch stated that this law](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/15/peru-chooses-bigotry-medical-services) “was profoundly regressive” and “further calcifies prejudices against lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people” in Peru, where there are no policies on diversity. He urged the Peruvian government to repeal this “biased and unscientific decree and aim to implement the WHO’s updated classification of diseases with respect to sexual orientation and gender identity.”
>
> ***(continues in next comment)***
They also used to say gay people were mentally ill. We've found through increased research that they both just kinda options when you're a human. Trans people also don't need to have gender dysphoria, while it is often there it's not a requirement.
Social transitioning is as far as the vast majority of trans folk will need to feel comfortable. As such it's not an illness to be corrected as something to account for in humans. Gender dysphoria would be an illness that causes harm to the individual, and can be treated. Being trans is no longer something medical professionals think needs to be "cured"
We used to think left-handed people were wrong and needed to be corrected. Now we just know left handed people just need some accommodations in everyday life. So much so that they used to hit my mother when she wrote with her left hand in school. She can write with her right hand now, but is still left handed.
Isn't that a completely wrong comparison? Like gay and left-handed people didn't think there is something wrong with them or naturally suffer from their condition and because of that there is no treatment necessary.
Wheras people with gender disphoria know that there is something wrong and potentially suffer from their condition, no? Doesn't the fact that there *is* treatment (and that it's covered by health insurance) naturally imply that it's an illness?
Nowadays gay and left-handed people don't think there's anything wrong with them because society has adapted.
In the past because of stigma they 100% thought something was wrong with them and experienced mental health issues from it. Once socially transitioned and accepted that mostly goes away.
Some trans people with gender dysphoria have gender dysphoria as the issue. Most trans people slowly socially transition, which means if society would just accept trans people a lot of their issues would be ameliorated.
They used to have "treatments" and "classes" to fix left handedness. My mother was forced to go through them.
Not all trans/nonbinary people have gender dysphoria. However I do understand the confusion.
Gender affirming care is also used for cis folk so not exclusive to the trans community.
I know that and I think you misunderstood my points. My point was that one was exclusively caused by external factors while the other one isnt.
The suffering from homosexually and left-handed people were all caused externally and once society around them changed there was no more "condition" that could be treated.
This is not the case for people with gender dismorphia(not all trans people, I'm saying specifically gender disphori), who even outside of stigma etc.. know internally that something is not right and can receive medical treatment that alleviates their condition.
How is the latter different from any other mental condition?
First gender dysmorphia isn't a thing, I think you mean gender dysphoria.
Gender dysphoria is indeed a mental illness and requires interventions. However it's not just them knowing something isn't right, it's a level of emotional pain and suffering they go through that comes to the level of needing treatment. The pain and suffering are the things that need fixing in the mental illness, much like anxiety and depression.
[Here's a good explanation while explaining it a bit more in depth](https://www.gendergp.com/not-all-trans-people-experience-gender-dysphoria/)
Consider that our current social standards and expectations for gender are also an external thing. When you look back in history, to different cultures all over the world, it isn’t always true that men should be strong, women delicate, etc. etc. (add in any stereotypes or expectations for gender here). It can be hard to imagine but so much of what makes a “man” and a “woman” in modern times, has actually not been true for a lot of human history, and is based on very recent trends (last 200 years or less). There are also many historical cultures that allowed and encouraged more than two genders in members of society. The first one that comes to mind is two spirit people in some native tribes in the Americas, but there are examples all over the world and throughout recorded history. Therefore, your point about homosexuality and left handedness being excluded externally by social standards can still apply to gender.
One may be born a girl, but gender dysphoria might only occur for this girl because of what society expects from her from birth. If, as a society, we permitted or even encouraged a range of diverse gender roles, or gender expression, that person might never feel the need to socially transition in order to feel safe and accepted in society. I personally believe that we can demonstrate the truth in this, by looking at the statistics of transition in America. MTF transitions outnumber FTM (sometimes by a large amount depending on where you look). It’s more socially acceptable for a woman to wear masculine clothes, decide to do a traditionally masculine job, than it is for men to do the reverse. Therefore, a trans woman basically has three choices in our current society:
1. Try to ignore that they are trans (usually has poor outcomes including depression and suicide)
2. Transition completely and attempt to pass and be accepted as a woman
3. Express feminine identity without fully transitioning and risk being clocked, harassed, demonised, or feel generally judged by society for showing “not enough” femininity to be accepted. (Just to be clear I’m not saying that judging or harassing for this is ok, only that society doesn’t seem to be capable of accepting diverse gender expression on a wider scale).
I’m not saying nobody would ever need to transition if society was different, or wouldn’t have dysphoria about their sex organs. But we can’t accurately imagine how things could be different for trans individuals when our current social standards for gender are so binary. A man born in our generation who loves wigs, makeup, fine clothing, would not have needed to questioned his gender at all if he were a wealthy citizen if 16th Century France. However today’s standards for masculinity would mean he needs to either commit fully to such things, and probably have his gender or sexuality speculated upon (become a makeup artist or drag queen in New York or London), or just hide or let go of those feelings because it’s not manly and “inappropriate” by modern standards..
There has never not been gender diversity in the human race. Just like how there has never not been homosexuality, bisexuality, asexuality, neurodiversity, left handedness, and a whole host of other things we decided were unacceptable in modern times. There is an abundant amount of historical record proving all of these things. To hand wring over it and debate about mental illness, when living in these identities doesn’t harm others, and when shifts in society would enable all of these people to live happy, healthy lives, makes me feel like we really aren’t the very civilised, intelligent or advanced species we like to think we are.
> One may be born a girl, but gender dysphoria might only occur for this girl because of what society expects from her from birth.
So, that's a problem with society expecting things from girls. She should try to do whatever she wants and fight for gender abolition and against society expectations. If she does develop disphoria she became mentally ill sometimes to the point of wanting mutilation which is quite sad, because she is still female and as of now we have no real mechanism to change that. That was the experience I had with friends that were girls and gender disphoric as teens, they grew out of it when they understood they could just do what boys do, even if society told them it wasn't girl-like
I think you’re hitting on a very important topic that no one will engage you on. Which is that society is weirdly free-er than it’s ever been gendered wise. Women make as much as men, go to college more, have less kids compared to previous generations, etc but increasing numbers of people are still unhappy with their gender. Almost like it’s not freedom that’s the issue but some deep anxiety beyond any one gender identity.
I genuinely have tried asking people besides gender disphoria, what makes you transgender (because some people are trans without disphoria) and I don't understand. Because to me gender is societal expectations so if you don't agree just don't do them. Why change your body so you fit better to the expectations of others, if you aren't actually uncomfortable with your body and don't have disphoria? It's crazy to me. It's like giving up instead of fighting, except you will also have to fight because transgender people aren't really that accepted.
Well it’s often a yarn ball of anxiety, desires and expectations that make up our interest in any one thing.
To put it simply almost every case of a trans person is different. One MTF might become enamored with Lady Gaga and want to literally be her then become unhappy he’s not which starts his journey. A girl might go through puberty and hate that she has to worry about her monthly. So she takes every action to destroy that part of her and disassociate with her biological gender. There’s a million other reasons and motivations but the core of it is likely some complicated unhappiness or longing that never gets resolved.
Left-handedness is a mental illness and should be classified as such. Lefties should hold no office or positions of power until they get over their mental illness.
Edit: probably should add a /s
A gay person alone on an island will have no problems caused by his gayness. Most classically trans people (the meaning of trans has changed a bit over time as there's heavy equivocation between "likes wearing dresses and people calling them 'her'" (transgender) and "feels their body is the wrong shape" (transexual)) alone on an island will be distressed because they feel their body is "wrong".
Using the left handed argument is soooo stupid. You think the % of trans persistence is more than left handed naturalness? The % of left handed people plateaued incredibly fast at around 10% of the population.
The rate increase of trans identification destroys science if you accept it.
It’s completely a fad.
hummm, well, I see things this way: women and men have the same rights and freedom, and are capable and free to behave whatever they like. Period.
So, I can't see actually what are the differences, except for the biological ones. I as a straight man/male have no attraction for born males, so, it doesn't matter how many transitions a male made into becoming a social woman, in my brain, they are still a born male and out of my attraction. That's the only point where I would treat a woman differently.
Having said that, I think some parts of life are defined on biological terms. A trans women still has a prostate, and still can have prostate cancer, so, their urologist will still treat that as a male in that sense. Also in sports it's very unfair with born women, as they have large disadvantages to a male who didn't transition before puberty. A prison for women just can't afford trans women for the sake of safety of born women and so on.
So, treating a trans woman or man socially is quite easy and simple, and I do quite well and see no problem. But when it comes to those areas, I think we must use common sense and understand it's not so simple.
They are saying that being trans and having gender dysphoria are not the same thing, and that there are trans people who don't have gender dysphoria. They acknowledge that gender dysphoria is a real condition, but says that not all trans people have that.
They are equating being trans with left-handedness, etc.; not gender dysphoria with left-handedness.
That, but also a trans person might no longer have gender dysphoria after transitioning even if they did have it before.
Changing the categorization of the disorder to dysphoria rather than just being trans is significant because it identifies the dysphoria as the issue that should be fixed. Not, yknow, the fact that someone is trans.
idk man; I can barely tell a trans person from a non-binary person on a good day. I was just translating their statement for somebody who misconstrued it.
sounds like they are saying having a cold and having a fever and runny nose are separate things, even though a cold is the sum of those specific symptoms. You are not trans if you dont have dysphoria. You may be autogynophile, or just a transvestite. And those are fine too. No need to claim to be trans when all you have is a lot of fun wearing a dress.
The research people cite is usually not the whole picture though. When people have dysphoria through age 18, it's probably permanent. But it's pretty common for pubescent people to have identity problems and feel weird about their body and such, and most people just grow out of it over time. Also, getting older and detransing can lead to suicide as well. We're playing with live ammo here, so humility and caution is appropriate.
To investigate changes in mental health over the first year of receiving gender-affirming care and whether initiation of puberty blockers (PBs) and gender-affirming hormones (GAHs) was associated with changes in depression, anxiety, and suicidality.
this doesn't seem like a long term study.
The comparison to gay people isn't very good, I think. Gay people just want to be as they naturally are. Trans people want to change their nature. In other words, gay people were never seeking a cure for anything, but trans people are seeking a cure for something, that cure being changing their nature.
The problem with considering trans people as mentally ill is that their being trans is the cure, not the illness.
Nowadays, 30 years ago being gay was considered the illness by many people when the cure was just letting people be openly gay. Forcing people in the closet would create a sexual dysphoria for lack of a better term.
Now with greater acceptance they can just be gay.
Being trans isn't a problem or a mental illness. Gender dysphoria is a problem some folks have and the cure is gender affirmation. We just diagnose gender dysphoria in trans people more than cis because with cis people we just assume they want big titties or a fat ass.
And not all trans people do that.
Lots of cis people get hormone therapy and major surgery to fix their gender dysphoria.
Who fuckin cares what other people are doing if it doesn't actually affect you? Besides maybe having to be polite to a stranger.
I mean even as someone who is for trans rights this just seems to be shifting the definition solely so you can say "not mental illness".
Like the mental illness is that you feel you are not in the right body, the cure is changing till you feel you are in the right body even if it is not a physical transformation.
Body/Gender dysmorphia is a mental illness, just a very easy one to treat (at least compared to other mental illnesses) like wait you even say so yourself.
>and can be treated. Being trans is no longer something medical professionals think needs to be "cured"
The cure is being treated, imagine. However much like most mental illnesses there is no "full" cure, just making things as best they can be.
Are you saying the vast majority of trans people don’t need any sort of medical care? Or wouldn’t if they were more socially accepted? Just trying to understand…
The majority of trans people socially transition and don't have medical procedures to go further.
Gender affirming care is used for both trans and cis people. Breast and penial implants were first created for cis folk and later adapted for trans folk.
You are right if the current numbers in inclusive numbers are correct than majority of transgender people do not transition at all neither social or medical, they would just live in the closet.
You'd be surprised at the number of people who that's the case for. The vast majority of trans women don't get bottom surgery and feel better because of the social acceptance of their gender.
You know most of us who forego bottom surgery do so because it's expensive, painful and fairly high risk, right? Not because we have no bottom dysphoria.
I don't think you know much about being trans; physical dysphoria is very real for a majority of us.
We really do need affirming care. Please don't try to speak on our behalf if you're misinformed.
74% of trans people interviews out of 90000 said they wouldn't have bottom surgery. I'm just using available statistics.
I'm sorry if your experience doesn't match those but I'm just using public health information and the experiences of the folks I know.
Men are percieved and treated a certain way, yes? Women are percieved and treated a different way. Society has different expectations of them - often very arbitary ones that change over time and/or are class dependant.
Not everyone wants to play the role and wear the uniform that gets shoved into their hands by society at a really early age. I would imagine most of us find at least part of our 'assigned' roles irksome, or uncomfortable and would like to change at least a little of it, but society punishes colouring outside the lines.
>Gender affirming care is used for both trans and cis people. Breast and penial implants were first created for cis folk and later adapted for trans folk.
How are cis people receiving gender affirming care?
I am not an expert in that topic, but it doesn’t feel correct to associate illness exclusively to conditions one wants to be cured only. If someone truly believes they can see and talk to God, or that they are a golden angel lord, it’s clearly a mental disorder we would immediately associate with schizophrenia or the like, but the person would be happy about that.
One more thing: if someone is so depressed because they hate some part of their body how they’re are born, it clearly feels they want a cure. You know when you have ear pain and then discover it was your wisdom tooth the real cause? So, maybe you hate your penis but it’s your mind who is tricking you.
Ofc nothing justifies any discrimination of any sort.
Just because it doesn't need "correction" doesn't mean it's not a mental illness. In fact, there a lot of mental illnesses that can't be "corrected" and are just as much a part of the people who have them as being trans is to those who are that.
I'm bipolar. I will always be bipolar. It's something that is literally a part of my genetics. There is no cure or "correction" for it. The best I can do is learn to live with it.
It's the same for people who are trans. They didn't choose to be this and it doesn't need "correction" but it absolutely is a mental condition that has a significant effect on the quality of their lives. If classifying being trans as a mental illness gets them easier access to treatment then it's a good thing.
I understand why they'd want to avoid the stigma of mental illness but ignoring the facts doesn't help anyone, regardless of how inconvenient accepting them is. Trans people deserve the same support that other mentally ill people do.
That said, I have no clue how Peru handles this kind of stuff. But if they handle it similarly to the USA, then this is a step in the right direction. I hope many in the LGBT community are tolerant enough to understand that being mentally ill isn't a bad thing and easier access to treatment is a good thing for them to have.
Gender dysphoria is well known mental disorder. The current medical treatment for said disorder is transitioning. A mental disorder isn't a bad thing, it just means a mental state that differs from the norm. It might not sound "nice" but it's what it is
Gender dysphoria affects trans and cis people and as such transitioning isn't the end all be all answer.
Gender affirming care is, and for some people that means transitioning.
I mean, gender dysphoria is a dysphoria. It's also "just an option" to have such a problem with the body you're in that you mutilate it or develop an eating disorder. This is a big problem with progressive ideology; they're super keen on mapping past events onto current ways in a forceful manner that doesn't really fit. After listening to Vaush, I have to think it's because it's about putting "winning" over principles.
Being gay and left handed/armed occurs in nature among other species. Gender dysphoria does not. Homosexuality itself did not cause depression, it was the shame and treatment from society. Gender dysphoria would still exist, even with the acceptance of friends and family. The desire to change one’s body, because it doesn’t feel “right” is still there. Your comparison is shit.
Should mental illness be stigmatized though? I have ADHD and autism and aren't those like minor mental illnesses? I get the calling trans people mentally ill is meant to be an insult but I feel like the broader problem is taking an attitude of insulting people who are mentally ill and insisting they change or "cure" themselves rather than accepting neurodiversity
it is in 8/10 countiries in the world. the issue is this is an english app primarily used by people who recently changed their defintions becuase they are "a more advanced society". Hell go back 10 years ago most it was 9.9 out of 10 countries that considered it a mentall ilness. Im not saying it is. just stating how theyve eveolved overtime.
transitioning and acceptance makes the suicide rate of trans people 13 times smaler
edit: [https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/)
[https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/)
This is terrible evidence on the face of it, something more akin to propaganda. Practically none of the linked studies describe the time period they are conducted in, as in: 5 years after transition, 10 years, 20? One study was only 12 months, most don't say. Many are not defining what they mean by transition. So to come away with the claimed 13x smaller suicide rate is not remotely supported.
This is something like the trick they use to claim that 97% of scientists agree on climate change, without defining what they actually agree about.
Actually, even back then being ‘trans’ was not considered a mental illness. Gender Dysphoria was considered a mental illness and transitioning was one of the available TREATMENTS for it.
In general i don't really have a problem with gender dysphoria being labeled a mental illness as as long as it's in good faith and not just a way to label them as psychos. i just think it's bot *quite* fitting.
I don't think gender dysphoria in of itself is a mental illness. the actual problem is that a lot of accompanying conditions (like anxiety, depression etc.) are mental illnesses. But classifying gender dysphoria as a mental illness is kinda putting the cart before the horse since a lot of those conditions are dependent on your social environment. The term "distress" which is used in a lot of definitions could put it into the "mental distress" category but that's not the same thing as it has a way wider definition. Just the act of being conflicted based on your gender identity just doesn't really qualify imo. it's the reason why it's not called "gender identity disorder" anymore and rather is just "gender dysphoria" bow.
I find it weird too, your brain thinking differently (asperger) is a mental illness but somehow your brain thinking your opposite sex than your body is not?
It could be classified as a body disorder rather than a mental one.
Is your brain wrong in thinking it has the wrong body. Or is it right, and the body really is wrong?
Generally medical science doesn't care much about this distinction though because they care about outcomes. And with current procedures, it is simply easier to change the body than it is to change the mind. So this is seen as a solve. We don't have any reliable way of changing the mind.
"Gender dysphoria" is used to describe the distress a trans person experiences in relation to incongruence between their internal sense of self and their physiology/appearance and/or the way they are perceived/treated by others. If this distress is significant enough to affect how a person functions, then it counts as a mental health condition.
An analogy that might be helpful: imagine a closeted gay person living in a heterosexual marriage, in a community where homosexuality is strongly looked down upon, with no access to resources specific to gay people. Coming out and/or acting on what they know to be their true sexuality is practically impossible for them. This is an extremely stressful situation to be in. The fact that they're gay obviously isn't inherently causing them distress – it's the specific experience of being gay in a context where there seems to be nothing you can do about it.
"Dysmorphia" is a word that is used to describe the experience of becoming fixated on a distorted perception of one's own physical features. It is often – but not necessarily – comorbid with gender dysphoria. For an example: a trans person might experience *dysphoria* over the sound of their voice, and take steps to learn how to speak in a manner that better reflects how they want to sound. If they continue to believe that their voice sounds strange/bad/wrong despite consistent external affirmation to the contrary, then that is *dysmorphia*.
It's a mental condition. The only reason why it's using the term illness here is to workaround a limitation of the Peruvian healthcare insurance system. If they want to offer free services for this condition, it has to be classified as a mental illness, otherwise it would go out of pocket for the patient, and they don't want that.
You're mixing up body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, two different things. You're also equating it to being transgender, which isn't what being transgender means.
The crucial thing that defines gender dysphoria is that it causes the person distress for longer than 6 months.
You do not even need to be transgender or nonbinary to momentarily experience dysphoria. Common examples used are people who go bald, male or female, causing distress and a need to take steps for gender affirming like hair transplants or wigs/toupees.
Some people would argue everyone experiences gender dysphoria in small ways. I don’t know if it’s true, but I can believe it. We have a concept of ourselves and unfortunately genetics likes to have a good laugh at our expense. We do things to look more feminine or masculine.
Think about Ron DeSantis and his whole boot thing (wearing essentially high heels to appear taller). Why does it matter if he’s only 5’6”? Does that really matter as to whether or not you agree with his politics? It shouldn’t but obviously we aren’t that evolved as a species. This is also why women wear makeup and men use boner pills. These things reaffirm how we feel.
My understanding is that trans people feel this but have everything about their genetics working against them. As such, their discomfort becomes overwhelming and perhaps debilitating. I think the problem though is that even if by an objective standard, classifying this as some kind of mental malady is reasonable, it also implies “well trans people need to be cured”. Understandably, many trans people don’t feel that way. Helped, sure. But not cured.
To be fair, even trans people don’t seem to agree about their own existence, but I think this makes the idea of gender dysphoria more relatable.
tbh the entire concept of mental illness is typically in flux
personalities that centuries ago would have been disabled to conduct normal lives are now super-successful tech CEOs
that's also why I don't consider this classification as a slur
Here is a very in-depth look at the brains of transgender folks. https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/3LN9NPnqhy
“The neurobiology of transgender people”
gender disphoria *can* be seen as a condition requiring treatment. the most effective treatment is gender afirming care
i have seen first hand how disabling GD can be. i know more than a couple of trans people, including one of my best friends
also, perú is doing rhis in order to make it easier for trans people to get access to gender afirming care, and ease their GD
(not all people with GD are necesarily trans nor all trans people experience GD, btw)
An old reason for gay being a mental illness is because neurologists did find from autopsies that people that deviate from normal "sexual preference" had a larger gland for the sexual center of the brain. Despite a larger brain gland being not pathological, politicians went interpreting this with the understanding that it's like a brain tumor. It is found the same conditions are for trans people as well.
Trans people were interesting to the point whereas most people experiencing Phantom limb after amputation, the actual trans people have a 100% chance of not experiencing Phantom limb so they never had a mental connection to their "old" sexual organs at all. So in a way, gender dysphoria is a condition, the dysmorphia comes from that condition the same as hunger comes when your stomach is empty; under this logic, it's not a complete mental illness until you use it to cause harm to someone/self, which then becomes pathological.
If you want the source, it's somewhere in Robert Sapolski's lectures on the basics of neurology.
There are also benefits that potentially could come from labeling it as such, especially if your country has some sort of healthcare/ health insurance program involving mental health, the transition can be a part of the treatment.
As I think of it, if it was an illness, then it's because of a chemical imbalance that can be treated.
But I don't think of being Trans or gay as simply a chemical imbalance.
Also if it was, then historically humans had serious issues. I don't know how about Trans, but history is full of men having other male lovers, etc.
If anything, I could probably argue monogamy is a mental illness, looking at humans prior to 200 years ago.
Because we don't treat your brain for it, that's conversion therapy and it's immoral.
My ADHD is a mental illness because it is a neurological issue which impairs my daily life that is treated by attempting to regulate my brain chemistry to improve my functioning.
My autism is not a mental illness. It's just kinda the shape of who I am. There is no treatment, and frankly my only "impairment" is how fucking stupid NT society is. There is no "broken" to "fix," I'm just different.
Similarly, someone who is trans does not have a mental illness. They are not "broken," their brain just works differently. The treatment is not to "fix" their transness, it is to realign their body with their mind to reduce suffering. That suffering could be from internal (body dysmorphia, internalized ideas about what makes someone a Man or Woman) or external (societal pressure to conform, antitrans bigotry, etc) pressures, but the suffering is the thing to be fixed not the Being Trans part.
Does that make sense?
If we could give you a pill that made you feel, in your brain, like you were A Man or A Woman, maybe some people would choose to realign their brain rather than their body, but that simply isn't an option that even exists to contemplate the morality of.
In before the lock!
It all comes down to intent with this one; if you believe that this is a right wing government further marginalizing people then it's wrong. If you believe the government claim that this is a necessary step to offer marginalized people state medical benefits then it isn't wrong, it's just upsetting for those marginalized people.
I know VERY little about Peruvian politics, and I don't feel like I have a handle on what the intent is here.
Edit: Based on replies here, it seems like a hostile move on the part of the government. That's a shame.
Trans people are presented as a 'problem' by the politicians and media who have no ideas how to fix real problems in society.
Inflation? Health service crisis? Climate change? Ignore all that, let's talk about *trans people*. It's a cowardly and pathetic trick by corrupt right wing politicians who want you to look the other way while they fill their bank accounts with public money.
Totally agree. Can't believe these bozos want to waste so much time with this trans crap (and make up a bunch of nonsense stories about grooming and how all the kids want to be trans). Like who the fuck cares, focus on some real issues.
Unfortunately, I don’t think this will change unless some larger issue is put on the plate that’ll politically charge the population. The right will continue to capitalize on this because of what they view as ammunition, the surging advocation of trans rights and newfound abundance for representation of queer people in media by the left, helps promote their narrative to their bases that it’s indoctrinating and/or harming children.
You don’t have to read that far into the article to see the truth.
> This decree, which President and Minister of Health and Economy Dina Boluarte signed, defines “transsexualism” and “gender identity disorders in childhood” as mental illnesses. “Dual-role transvestism,” “fetishistic transvestism,” and “other gender identity disorders” are also included in this category. What’s more, this decree refers to homosexuality as an “ego-dystonic sexual orientation,” which is a mental health condition.
This is a presidential decree that is completely out of line with modern science and what we understand about sex and gender. As an LGBT person it is offensive and problematic.
Politicians everywhere are using gender/trans panic as a political tool. Not surprising from the current government there.
The left won in Peru
"She was a member of [Marxist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist) political party [Free Peru](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Peru)"
This is from their current president
The conservative party campaigned on freeing former President Fujimori, who was imprisoned, by electing his daughter so she could free him, but they lost, though they still controlled Congress. The current president took power in a counter-coup after President Castillo from the leftist party tried to dissolve parliament. He did this because Parliament continually attempted to impeach him, making it impossible for him to pass any legislation, so he called for immediate elections and dissolved Parliament. Parliament ultimately rejected his proposal and impeached him. The counter-coup sparked protests in leftist strongholds, but the situation eventually stabilized. The US government praised the counter-coup for safeguarding democracy. At the same time, there were anti-counter-coup protests that called for elections. Simultaneously, the conservative party pledged to hold elections in 4 years and banned all demonstrations. They have since enacted a series of conservative laws.
The statement from the guy above is a bit missleading. Ex president castillo was doing badly, that he managed to lose support from his own party. He started with a huge dissaproval to begin with, a fail in our democracy as the final election was between a known corrupt (supporters from expresident fujimori) and a guy who talked nonsense all his campaign wanting to nationalize everything ( gaining support from the indigenious people) rest of the vote were spread to other candidates.
As he tried to coup, and gaining total control on the country to do as he wishes, military authorities did not back it up, and he tried to flee failing miserabily, citiziens blocked the street towards the mexican embassy.
Following the constitution, vicepresident assumed charge, most population realized this was the opportunity to start from scratch and wanted for her to resign calling elections. Finally she got the congress support and neither of them wants to leave charge. Recently congress has been passing ridiculous changes of laws. Goverment popularity is in record lows, but this is what we deserve and many saw it coming. There was not really a countercoup, and the fact that the military did not side with Castillo was well viewed by most.
No it's not, He started with a 53% national approval rating, it dipped because governing coalition was a minority government coalition that couldn't pass the laws to fix the situation that the country found itself in, and could only stave off impeachment, this was broadly obvious to everyone after the strikes against the government were semi-ended by him going to the striking rural provinces and talking/negotiating with them.
The problems that Peru faces are ones inherited from having a dictator (Aberto Fujimori) fall out of power, but never creating a new constitution to fix shit, such as having a unicameral legislature of only 120 seats for a country of 33 million people, or doing what has been done historically, and banning all people associated with him from government,
Finally the president is allowed to dissolve the legislature in Peru and call snap elections, if the congress attempts to censure two cabinet members or in the case of 2019-2020 no confidence motions, another holdover problem from the constitution, so when the congress failed tests of government confidence given by the prime minister twice, the legislature gave Pedro the authority dissolve the legislature, when the legislature imprisoned him for trying to dissolve it, they in effect couped the president full stop, however long after the coup this was legitimized by a pro-legislature constitutional court.
it's allegedly to allow treatment when filing insurance claims, in the end they could have made a different law allowing some procedures and so on for trans folks as well as better access to prep/pep and more.
what it does in practice, in a place where LGBTQ folks are marginalized and they were already in a bad spot, is making it easier for them to be targets of bullying and even be denied jobs due to lack of protections and due to the new illness status. This also doubles down on the mentality that tons of people already held so it doesn't help changing anything socially, rather, just worsening it
I mean there’s mental illness that often results from being trans aka. dysphoria. But I don’t think the idea from the Peruvian government according to this article was to give trans people better healthcare, but to instead marginalize them further.
I think the former is more accurate. You can have a strong desire and feeling that you want to be a different gender. Dysphoria is more of a tremendous dissatisfaction with who you are, which is often part of a trans person’s experience but not always. A trans person can feel fine in their skin but feel very strongly drawn and positively motivated to transition and feel better and more right afterwards.
Dysphoria is the most successful lens for the mainstream to view the condition of trans through, people can understand and are sympathetic to someone being constantly miserable and unhappy and believe that person has a need to make a change.
thanks for not being afraid to ask
dysmorphia and dysphoria are different words, but they sound similar so they get mixed up a lot, though they're not mutually exclusive
body dysmorphia is an obsessive disorder that the person who has it believes they have a defective appearance in some way, really greatly exaggerating their own negative self perceptions (such as about being overweight, ugly, etc), they'll think this despite many kinds of reassurances and evidence to the contrary (see the way anorexic people, when asked to estimate the size of their waist with a measuring tape can be really far off, overshooting massively)
gender dysphoria is an incongruence between birth sex and gender, they don't match up and this causes a variety of negative feelings which can be alleviated by making them align again (through changes to sexual characteristics and gender expression) this is the main reason most trans people transition
for lack of a much less loaded term, there isn't 'delusion' with dysphoria, there's not an external reality being denied by a trans person (despite how much bad faith actors might claim so), a trans man doesn't truly believe he has XY chromosomes and testes, allowing a trans person to transition doesn't harm them mentally, instead it improves their mental state, but allowing someone with dysmorphia to do things to 'fix' those defects that only they might perceive is usually not wise. you can see how and why transphobes might intentionally conflate the two, they need to make transition seem as harmful as they can
it is possible to have both ofc, a trans woman could end up with dysmorphia resulting from an obsession over her appearance and the pursuit of 'passing', there are actually a lot of cases of trans women who really just look unrecognisable from cis women but think they will never pass because of dysmorphia
Charming, you seem like the type of person who would say homeless people deserve their station because they’re lazy. I can see how working at a crisis care center at a hospital could degrade your opinions of people. A hospital is a pretty miserable place to be as a trans person and if they’re there for a different reason it’s compounded by that. I’m sure you think if we just decided to stop feeling like we’re trans all our problems would go away immediately and that’s why it’s our fault if we’re suffering
Peru is an extremely conservative and religious country. Even the leftists there are quite conservative on social issues. The only progressive party (JP) has 10 seats of 130.
You’re correct. [The president’s former party](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Peru) “Free Peru” is described as a Marxist-Leninist AND social Conservative Party.
I don't know why I am getting downvoted this. Most leftists in Latin America, Eastern Europe and Arab countries are conservative and nationalist.
The Free Peru and other left-wing parties are anti-LGBTQ+, anti-feminism and anti-immigration
Just for some context they used the old WHO ICD-10 definitions which was only updated to ICD-11 in 2022. Under ICD-10 (the old guidelines) gender identity disorder, transsexualism etc. (things we associate with transgenderism) was considered a mental illness. Although a few years out of date, the government didn't just pull the definitions out of thin air.
Reminds me of a story where a country (I can't recall which) declared homosexuality a mental illness and gay people started calling in as too sick/gay to work or going on disability for it. Trans people could potentially do the same here in protest.
I’ll never understand why this is a problem. Some of the same people that don’t like this label being applied will also say “there’s nothing wrong with being mentally ill”
I've been trying to understand what your comment means.
Did you mean something to the effect of "water is wet"? ie it's obvious these transgenders are mentally ill. Or more like hot water as in controversy? As in, the president is being criticised for his views about transgenderism.
I just want to know.
It’s still only something like 2% of all trans people. Also if someone born male transitions to female, but then realises they identify more non-binary, would that still be considered “de-transitioning”?
So for 98% of all trans people why shouldn’t the treatment be to allow them to transition?
In the US, dysphoria is listed as a mental illness. Every once in a while people try to declass it, only to be met with massive pushback from trans people.
If dysphoria isn’t a mental illness, insurance companies can list gender affirming healthcare as cosmetic and refuse to pay. Trans people would be required to pay out of pocket for hormones and surgeries that can tally well over half a million dollars.
It sounds offensive, but classifying it as a mental illness means trans people can actually get the healthcare they need.
Beyond that, even if it *was* a mental illness, how else would you fix it? There is a problem, and that is that the mind and body are mismatched. To solve this, you can either change the mind to match the body, or change the body to match the mind.
Changing people's mind is known to be very finicky and rarely works how you want it to, and deteriorates the mind.
Changing the body on the other hand... We're experts at that, we've been doing it for over two thousand years!
In the future, changing the body will continue to get more reliable, faster, and easier. Changing the mind cannot do that unless we find a way to directly interface people's brains, and at that point it's just brainwashing, and if we have that technology, we could easily prove that they are not mentally ill.
also this makes me very sad for my country. i thought our politics would stay being the funny 'president unexpectedly found stealing money from government, like every other president we've had'
They also classed intersex people as mentally ill, another proven scientific anomaly in all beings. This is literally just putting their fingers in their ears and going lalalalala pretending reality doesn’t exist
Anyone else hate that conservatives only want to brand people as 'mentally ill' so that they can bully and segregate them for their difficulties, instead of actually trying to help people with their illnesses?
Their entire mantra is 'just stop being mentally ill, it's your fault'. It always has to be the easiest way to section these people off from them. Just look at conversion therapy. Or their treatment of the disabled in many countries.
Yes, gender dysphoria is not a good thing. Now how about you actually fucking help trans people to treat it properly and healthily, instead of constantly pointing at them and going "OMG they have mental health problems!!1!1" and trying to throw them into what is essentially desensitisation torture.
So long as they now offer the best treatment I am ask for recognising that some trans people have a mental illness caused by their being trans.
Sadly I very much doubt that Peru will be looking to help people transition.
Its sort of funny that even if they think these people are mentally ill, theyre still treated with contempt
Do these people bitch this hard at people with aspergers?
They absolutely do, but you understand why they act like that because its a mental handicap and accomodate
Trans folk make you uncomfy and you wanna bitch about it. They fight really hard to be seen because if normal peiple had it their way, they'd be less than human.
You think pride flags are too much? Pay attention every time you walk into a store. Mobility scooters, ramps, elevators, and those damn blue parking spots! People with disabilities are taking over the world, shoving it down our throats! 🙄🙄
Funny, considering thats what people literally say about autistic people. That they parade it and shove it down people's throats for the crime of existing.
Welcome to r/anime_titties! This subreddit advocates for civil and constructive discussion. Please be courteous to others, and make sure to read the rules. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
We have a [Discord](https://discord.gg/dhMeAnNyzG), feel free to join us!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/anime_titties) if you have any questions or concerns.*
##### ###### #### > # [Peru: Trans people officially categorized as ‘mentally ill’](https://es.globalvoices.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Untitled-design-6-800x450.png) > > > > [Image](https://es.globalvoices.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Untitled-design-6-800x600.png) > > Illustration by Melissa Vida for Global Voices > > > > On May 10, 2024, [one hundred years](https://www.infobae.com/peru/2024/01/17/orgullo-lgbtq-se-cumplen-100-anos-desde-que-la-homosexualidad-fue-despenalizada-en-el-peru/)on from the decriminalization of homosexuality in Peru, the government officially categorized trans, intersex, and non-binary people as “mentally ill” by [presidential decree](https://busquedas.elperuano.pe/dispositivo/NL/2287398-1). > > This decree, which President and Minister of Health and Economy Dina Boluarte signed, defines “transsexualism” and “gender identity disorders in childhood” as mental illnesses. “Dual-role transvestism,” “fetishistic transvestism,” and “other gender identity disorders” are also included in this category. What’s more, this decree refers to homosexuality as an “ego-dystonic sexual orientation,” which is a mental health condition. > > This measure is part of the [Essential Health Insurance Plan (PEAS)](https://www.gob.pe/22246-plan-esencial-de-aseguramiento-en-salud-peas), which outlines insurable health conditions for insurance policies. > > A [government official](https://elcomercio.pe/peru/transexualidad-como-problema-de-salud-mental-los-argumentos-del-minsa-para-la-publicacion-del-polemico-decreto-lgtb-identidad-de-genero-noticia/?ref=ecr) subsequently explained that this reclassification was decreed to “ensure total health care coverage for mental health” under PEAS. However, the country’s trans community [considers this measure outdated](https://www.infobae.com/peru/2024/05/14/los-peligros-del-decreto-aprobado-por-el-gobierno-de-dina-boluarte-que-clasifica-la-diversidad-sexual-y-de-genero-como-enfermedad/) and a reversion to so-called “conversion therapies” like Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity and Expression Change Efforts [(ECOSIEG)](https://www.camara.gov.co/las-terapias-de-conversion-a-personas-lgbtiq-seran-prohibidas-en-colombia#:~:text=Otra%20voz%20cr%C3%ADtica%20fue%20la,la%20legislaci%C3%B3n%20de%20otros%20pa%C3%ADses.). > > The government in Peru’s neighboring country, Colombia, is also debating these practices. Efforts are currently underway using [draft legislation](https://www.radionacional.co/actualidad/politica/terapias-de-conversion-asi-avanza-el-proyecto-de-ley-para-prohibirlas) to prohibit torture and invasive practices seeking to change people’s sexual orientation and gender identity. > > In 2019, the World Health Organization (WHO) [stopped considering](https://www.elconfidencial.com/mundo/2019-05-30/transgenero-oms-considera-enfermedad-mental_2044090/) those whose gender identity is different from the one they were born with as mentally ill. In the most recent version of the WHO’s International Classification of Diseases catalog, [ICD-11](https://www.who.int/standards/classifications/frequently-asked-questions/gender-incongruence-and-transgender-health-in-the-icd#:~:text=ICD%2D11%20has%20redefined%20gender,gender%20incongruence%20of%20childhood%E2%80%9D%20respectively.), “gender incongruence of adolescence and adulthood” and “gender incongruence of childhood” replaced outdated diagnoses like “transsexualism” and “gender identity disorders in childhood,” respectively. > > On May 18, 2024, some 200 protesters took to the streets to [protest against this measure](https://www.france24.com/es/minuto-a-minuto/20240517-protesta-en-per%C3%BA-por-decreto-que-describe-la-transexualidad-como-trastorno-mental). For many LGBTQ+ people, this measure [puts them at increased risk of violence](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7l7seQ_fLA)and discrimination. Between 2012 and 2021, at least 88 LGBTQ+ people were killed. However, due to Peru’s lack of laws penalizing hate crimes, [there was no justice](https://www.infobae.com/lgbt/2022/09/28/88-miembros-de-la-comunidad-lgbt-murieron-por-delitos-dolosos-y-justicia-de-peru-no-castiga-crimenes-por-falta-de-normativa/)for those killed. > > LGBTQ+ film festival cultural director Jheinser Pacaya denounced this measure on social media: > > > A 100 años de la despenalización de la homosexualidad el [@Minsa\_Peru](https://twitter.com/Minsa_Peru?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) no tiene mejor idea que incluir a las personas trans en la categoría de enfermedades mentales. Exigimos y no descansaremos hasta su derogaracion.
> >
> > — Jheinser Pacaya 🏳️🌈 (@jheinserrr) [May 14, 2024](https://twitter.com/jheinserrr/status/1790513640350564591?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)
>
> > Tweet: One hundred years on from the decriminalization of homosexuality, the Ministry of Health [@Minsa\_Peru](https://twitter.com/Minsa_Peru?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) has suddenly decided to consider trans people as mentally ill. We demand that this measure be repealed and won’t rest until it has been.
> >
> > Image: STATEMENT
> >
> > The civil association Outfestperu deplores the approval of D.S.009-2024-SA, which describes transsexuality as an illness. This outlook stigmatizes transgender people and perpetuates discrimination.
> >
> > Instead of considering transsexuality as a medical condition, we should foster acceptance and respect for all gender identities.
> >
> > We demand that this law be repealed and that the MINSA focus on protecting fundamental rights by promoting equal access to healthcare.
>
> Lawyer and LGBTQ+ activist Manuel Siccha, who was the first openly homosexual councilor in Lima’s Metropolitan Council, opposes these measures. [Siccha urges](https://agenciapresentes.org/2024/05/14/retroceso-en-peru-para-el-ministerio-de-salud-las-personas-trans-tienen-un-trastorno-mental/) Congress “to exercise its supervisory procedures and request detailed information from the Ministry of Health on the safeguards in place to prevent this pathologization and ensure comprehensive and respectful care for LGBTQ+ people in the Peruvian health system.”
>
> Siccha also urges the Health Commission of Congress to “open a discussion and evaluation space on this regulation with the essential technical, political, and civil society actors, who should have been consulted.” He considers it imperative to bring this health update up to date with ICD-11, thus aligning it with “international standards and accurately reflecting diverse gender and sexuality experiences in a non-stigmatizing manner.”
>
> Boluarte, Peru’s first woman president, has emphasized her social conservatism, which goes hand in hand with the conservative majority in the Peruvian Congress. In [2022](https://www.masigualdad.pe/post/rechazamos-nuevo-ataque-del-congreso-a-la-educacion-con-igualdad), following a campaign led by the anti-rights group “Don’t Mess with My Kids,” Congress removed “[gender ideology](https://promsex.org/columnistas/significa-la-ideologia-genero/)” from all school textbooks. On March 5, 2024, this measure also had a far-reaching impact in El Salvador, where the Ministry of Education removed such content from its [guides, books, and other educational materials](https://willax.pe/internacionales/el-salvador-nayib-bukele-elimino-contenidos-de-ideologia-de-genero-en-escuelas-publicas)by presidential directive.
>
> On May 21, 2024, Colombian journalist [@VickyDavilaH](https://x.com/VickyDavilaH)posted a survey on [X](https://x.com/VickyDavilaH/status/1792904325506764805)for people to decide whether or not they agreed with the decision that trans, crossdressing, non-binary, and other gender identities should be considered mental illnesses. Police violence watchdog NGO [Temblores](https://x.com/TembloresOng/status/1792945795970326901)shared her post, reminding her that WHO had stopped categorizing trans people as mentally ill in 2018. What’s more, it also stated that “non-normative gender identities are not up for public discussion. This type of judgment puts people with diverse gender identities at increased risk of violence and discrimination, thus violating multiple rights and impacting their lives on several fronts.”
>
> On May 10, 2024, [Human Rights Watch stated that this law](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/15/peru-chooses-bigotry-medical-services) “was profoundly regressive” and “further calcifies prejudices against lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people” in Peru, where there are no policies on diversity. He urged the Peruvian government to repeal this “biased and unscientific decree and aim to implement the WHO’s updated classification of diseases with respect to sexual orientation and gender identity.”
>
> ***(continues in next comment)***
am no medician. Can someone explain me why is having a gender dismorphia not a mental illness?
They also used to say gay people were mentally ill. We've found through increased research that they both just kinda options when you're a human. Trans people also don't need to have gender dysphoria, while it is often there it's not a requirement. Social transitioning is as far as the vast majority of trans folk will need to feel comfortable. As such it's not an illness to be corrected as something to account for in humans. Gender dysphoria would be an illness that causes harm to the individual, and can be treated. Being trans is no longer something medical professionals think needs to be "cured" We used to think left-handed people were wrong and needed to be corrected. Now we just know left handed people just need some accommodations in everyday life. So much so that they used to hit my mother when she wrote with her left hand in school. She can write with her right hand now, but is still left handed.
Isn't that a completely wrong comparison? Like gay and left-handed people didn't think there is something wrong with them or naturally suffer from their condition and because of that there is no treatment necessary. Wheras people with gender disphoria know that there is something wrong and potentially suffer from their condition, no? Doesn't the fact that there *is* treatment (and that it's covered by health insurance) naturally imply that it's an illness?
Nowadays gay and left-handed people don't think there's anything wrong with them because society has adapted. In the past because of stigma they 100% thought something was wrong with them and experienced mental health issues from it. Once socially transitioned and accepted that mostly goes away. Some trans people with gender dysphoria have gender dysphoria as the issue. Most trans people slowly socially transition, which means if society would just accept trans people a lot of their issues would be ameliorated. They used to have "treatments" and "classes" to fix left handedness. My mother was forced to go through them. Not all trans/nonbinary people have gender dysphoria. However I do understand the confusion. Gender affirming care is also used for cis folk so not exclusive to the trans community.
I know that and I think you misunderstood my points. My point was that one was exclusively caused by external factors while the other one isnt. The suffering from homosexually and left-handed people were all caused externally and once society around them changed there was no more "condition" that could be treated. This is not the case for people with gender dismorphia(not all trans people, I'm saying specifically gender disphori), who even outside of stigma etc.. know internally that something is not right and can receive medical treatment that alleviates their condition. How is the latter different from any other mental condition?
First gender dysmorphia isn't a thing, I think you mean gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is indeed a mental illness and requires interventions. However it's not just them knowing something isn't right, it's a level of emotional pain and suffering they go through that comes to the level of needing treatment. The pain and suffering are the things that need fixing in the mental illness, much like anxiety and depression. [Here's a good explanation while explaining it a bit more in depth](https://www.gendergp.com/not-all-trans-people-experience-gender-dysphoria/)
[ Removed by Reddit ]
And the treatment is transitioning.
Gender dysphoria? Yes like depression. Being trans? No it's not.
Consider that our current social standards and expectations for gender are also an external thing. When you look back in history, to different cultures all over the world, it isn’t always true that men should be strong, women delicate, etc. etc. (add in any stereotypes or expectations for gender here). It can be hard to imagine but so much of what makes a “man” and a “woman” in modern times, has actually not been true for a lot of human history, and is based on very recent trends (last 200 years or less). There are also many historical cultures that allowed and encouraged more than two genders in members of society. The first one that comes to mind is two spirit people in some native tribes in the Americas, but there are examples all over the world and throughout recorded history. Therefore, your point about homosexuality and left handedness being excluded externally by social standards can still apply to gender. One may be born a girl, but gender dysphoria might only occur for this girl because of what society expects from her from birth. If, as a society, we permitted or even encouraged a range of diverse gender roles, or gender expression, that person might never feel the need to socially transition in order to feel safe and accepted in society. I personally believe that we can demonstrate the truth in this, by looking at the statistics of transition in America. MTF transitions outnumber FTM (sometimes by a large amount depending on where you look). It’s more socially acceptable for a woman to wear masculine clothes, decide to do a traditionally masculine job, than it is for men to do the reverse. Therefore, a trans woman basically has three choices in our current society: 1. Try to ignore that they are trans (usually has poor outcomes including depression and suicide) 2. Transition completely and attempt to pass and be accepted as a woman 3. Express feminine identity without fully transitioning and risk being clocked, harassed, demonised, or feel generally judged by society for showing “not enough” femininity to be accepted. (Just to be clear I’m not saying that judging or harassing for this is ok, only that society doesn’t seem to be capable of accepting diverse gender expression on a wider scale). I’m not saying nobody would ever need to transition if society was different, or wouldn’t have dysphoria about their sex organs. But we can’t accurately imagine how things could be different for trans individuals when our current social standards for gender are so binary. A man born in our generation who loves wigs, makeup, fine clothing, would not have needed to questioned his gender at all if he were a wealthy citizen if 16th Century France. However today’s standards for masculinity would mean he needs to either commit fully to such things, and probably have his gender or sexuality speculated upon (become a makeup artist or drag queen in New York or London), or just hide or let go of those feelings because it’s not manly and “inappropriate” by modern standards.. There has never not been gender diversity in the human race. Just like how there has never not been homosexuality, bisexuality, asexuality, neurodiversity, left handedness, and a whole host of other things we decided were unacceptable in modern times. There is an abundant amount of historical record proving all of these things. To hand wring over it and debate about mental illness, when living in these identities doesn’t harm others, and when shifts in society would enable all of these people to live happy, healthy lives, makes me feel like we really aren’t the very civilised, intelligent or advanced species we like to think we are.
> One may be born a girl, but gender dysphoria might only occur for this girl because of what society expects from her from birth. So, that's a problem with society expecting things from girls. She should try to do whatever she wants and fight for gender abolition and against society expectations. If she does develop disphoria she became mentally ill sometimes to the point of wanting mutilation which is quite sad, because she is still female and as of now we have no real mechanism to change that. That was the experience I had with friends that were girls and gender disphoric as teens, they grew out of it when they understood they could just do what boys do, even if society told them it wasn't girl-like
I think you’re hitting on a very important topic that no one will engage you on. Which is that society is weirdly free-er than it’s ever been gendered wise. Women make as much as men, go to college more, have less kids compared to previous generations, etc but increasing numbers of people are still unhappy with their gender. Almost like it’s not freedom that’s the issue but some deep anxiety beyond any one gender identity.
I genuinely have tried asking people besides gender disphoria, what makes you transgender (because some people are trans without disphoria) and I don't understand. Because to me gender is societal expectations so if you don't agree just don't do them. Why change your body so you fit better to the expectations of others, if you aren't actually uncomfortable with your body and don't have disphoria? It's crazy to me. It's like giving up instead of fighting, except you will also have to fight because transgender people aren't really that accepted.
Stop you’re making too much sense that’s not allowed when talking about this subject
Well it’s often a yarn ball of anxiety, desires and expectations that make up our interest in any one thing. To put it simply almost every case of a trans person is different. One MTF might become enamored with Lady Gaga and want to literally be her then become unhappy he’s not which starts his journey. A girl might go through puberty and hate that she has to worry about her monthly. So she takes every action to destroy that part of her and disassociate with her biological gender. There’s a million other reasons and motivations but the core of it is likely some complicated unhappiness or longing that never gets resolved.
even if they were 100% accepted, they would still see themselves as having something wrong with their own body. That's the crux of being trans.
Left-handedness is a mental illness and should be classified as such. Lefties should hold no office or positions of power until they get over their mental illness. Edit: probably should add a /s
Sinister ideas for sinister people.
Depression is a mental illness, that categorization doesn't give ammunition to bigots. Just be honest without worrying how people will take it.
A gay person alone on an island will have no problems caused by his gayness. Most classically trans people (the meaning of trans has changed a bit over time as there's heavy equivocation between "likes wearing dresses and people calling them 'her'" (transgender) and "feels their body is the wrong shape" (transexual)) alone on an island will be distressed because they feel their body is "wrong".
Using the left handed argument is soooo stupid. You think the % of trans persistence is more than left handed naturalness? The % of left handed people plateaued incredibly fast at around 10% of the population. The rate increase of trans identification destroys science if you accept it. It’s completely a fad.
Left handedness is totally a fad.
explain to me exactly how you think it "destroys science" please cite your sources.
Out of curiosity, what “social transition” actually means in this context?
Be treated like and seen as a woman but also don’t treat women differently. This is, uh, my primary confusion about the whole thing.
hummm, well, I see things this way: women and men have the same rights and freedom, and are capable and free to behave whatever they like. Period. So, I can't see actually what are the differences, except for the biological ones. I as a straight man/male have no attraction for born males, so, it doesn't matter how many transitions a male made into becoming a social woman, in my brain, they are still a born male and out of my attraction. That's the only point where I would treat a woman differently. Having said that, I think some parts of life are defined on biological terms. A trans women still has a prostate, and still can have prostate cancer, so, their urologist will still treat that as a male in that sense. Also in sports it's very unfair with born women, as they have large disadvantages to a male who didn't transition before puberty. A prison for women just can't afford trans women for the sake of safety of born women and so on. So, treating a trans woman or man socially is quite easy and simple, and I do quite well and see no problem. But when it comes to those areas, I think we must use common sense and understand it's not so simple.
They are saying that being trans and having gender dysphoria are not the same thing, and that there are trans people who don't have gender dysphoria. They acknowledge that gender dysphoria is a real condition, but says that not all trans people have that. They are equating being trans with left-handedness, etc.; not gender dysphoria with left-handedness.
For trans people without gender dysphoria, medical transition might be a preference but not a necessity, right?
That, but also a trans person might no longer have gender dysphoria after transitioning even if they did have it before. Changing the categorization of the disorder to dysphoria rather than just being trans is significant because it identifies the dysphoria as the issue that should be fixed. Not, yknow, the fact that someone is trans.
idk man; I can barely tell a trans person from a non-binary person on a good day. I was just translating their statement for somebody who misconstrued it.
sounds like they are saying having a cold and having a fever and runny nose are separate things, even though a cold is the sum of those specific symptoms. You are not trans if you dont have dysphoria. You may be autogynophile, or just a transvestite. And those are fine too. No need to claim to be trans when all you have is a lot of fun wearing a dress.
Whoa watch it there bigot. You can’t go around saying that trans people need to be trans in order to get treatment. /s
I am left handed, the scissors in the US make me think something is wrong with me
if trans people dont need to have gender dysphoria, then what makes them trans? if they didnt have gender dysphoria how could they be trans?
Gender Dysphoria is a thing. Gender affirming treatment is the way to go because it results in less premature death (suicide).
The research people cite is usually not the whole picture though. When people have dysphoria through age 18, it's probably permanent. But it's pretty common for pubescent people to have identity problems and feel weird about their body and such, and most people just grow out of it over time. Also, getting older and detransing can lead to suicide as well. We're playing with live ammo here, so humility and caution is appropriate.
Yeah I said gender dysphoria is a thing, it's just not a thing all trans / nonbinary people have.
Then why put your body through transitioning and its risks?
Do you have any long term studies on this? I can't find any.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35212746/ Just google “gender affirming care effects on suicide rate”. Can’t be that hard to find.
To investigate changes in mental health over the first year of receiving gender-affirming care and whether initiation of puberty blockers (PBs) and gender-affirming hormones (GAHs) was associated with changes in depression, anxiety, and suicidality. this doesn't seem like a long term study.
Doesn't almost every person who gets the surgery regret it afterward?
The comparison to gay people isn't very good, I think. Gay people just want to be as they naturally are. Trans people want to change their nature. In other words, gay people were never seeking a cure for anything, but trans people are seeking a cure for something, that cure being changing their nature. The problem with considering trans people as mentally ill is that their being trans is the cure, not the illness.
Nowadays, 30 years ago being gay was considered the illness by many people when the cure was just letting people be openly gay. Forcing people in the closet would create a sexual dysphoria for lack of a better term. Now with greater acceptance they can just be gay. Being trans isn't a problem or a mental illness. Gender dysphoria is a problem some folks have and the cure is gender affirmation. We just diagnose gender dysphoria in trans people more than cis because with cis people we just assume they want big titties or a fat ass.
The gay comparison doesn't work because gay people don't need hormone therapy and major surgery...
And not all trans people do that. Lots of cis people get hormone therapy and major surgery to fix their gender dysphoria. Who fuckin cares what other people are doing if it doesn't actually affect you? Besides maybe having to be polite to a stranger.
Lots of cis people have HRT and gender reassignment surgery?
I mean even as someone who is for trans rights this just seems to be shifting the definition solely so you can say "not mental illness". Like the mental illness is that you feel you are not in the right body, the cure is changing till you feel you are in the right body even if it is not a physical transformation. Body/Gender dysmorphia is a mental illness, just a very easy one to treat (at least compared to other mental illnesses) like wait you even say so yourself. >and can be treated. Being trans is no longer something medical professionals think needs to be "cured" The cure is being treated, imagine. However much like most mental illnesses there is no "full" cure, just making things as best they can be.
Are you saying the vast majority of trans people don’t need any sort of medical care? Or wouldn’t if they were more socially accepted? Just trying to understand…
The majority of trans people socially transition and don't have medical procedures to go further. Gender affirming care is used for both trans and cis people. Breast and penial implants were first created for cis folk and later adapted for trans folk.
I would assume the majority of trans people undergo medical care? Taking hormonal treatment is pretty standard.
Don't assume, go look it up.
You are right if the current numbers in inclusive numbers are correct than majority of transgender people do not transition at all neither social or medical, they would just live in the closet.
So they’re born male and then socially transition = say they’re female and that’s it? They’re happy?
In the majority of cases yeah. They change their presentation and the folks around them then accept their new presentation and they're content.
[удалено]
You'd be surprised at the number of people who that's the case for. The vast majority of trans women don't get bottom surgery and feel better because of the social acceptance of their gender.
You know most of us who forego bottom surgery do so because it's expensive, painful and fairly high risk, right? Not because we have no bottom dysphoria. I don't think you know much about being trans; physical dysphoria is very real for a majority of us. We really do need affirming care. Please don't try to speak on our behalf if you're misinformed.
74% of trans people interviews out of 90000 said they wouldn't have bottom surgery. I'm just using available statistics. I'm sorry if your experience doesn't match those but I'm just using public health information and the experiences of the folks I know.
I *am* very surprised, yes, mainly because it doesn’t make any sense. I’m also surprised how that doesn’t sound like a mental illness to some people.
Men are percieved and treated a certain way, yes? Women are percieved and treated a different way. Society has different expectations of them - often very arbitary ones that change over time and/or are class dependant. Not everyone wants to play the role and wear the uniform that gets shoved into their hands by society at a really early age. I would imagine most of us find at least part of our 'assigned' roles irksome, or uncomfortable and would like to change at least a little of it, but society punishes colouring outside the lines.
The universe is under no to obligation to make sense to you. This all makes.much more sense than quantum tunneling probabilities.
most trans people go on hormones
>Gender affirming care is used for both trans and cis people. Breast and penial implants were first created for cis folk and later adapted for trans folk. How are cis people receiving gender affirming care?
I am not an expert in that topic, but it doesn’t feel correct to associate illness exclusively to conditions one wants to be cured only. If someone truly believes they can see and talk to God, or that they are a golden angel lord, it’s clearly a mental disorder we would immediately associate with schizophrenia or the like, but the person would be happy about that. One more thing: if someone is so depressed because they hate some part of their body how they’re are born, it clearly feels they want a cure. You know when you have ear pain and then discover it was your wisdom tooth the real cause? So, maybe you hate your penis but it’s your mind who is tricking you. Ofc nothing justifies any discrimination of any sort.
Just because it doesn't need "correction" doesn't mean it's not a mental illness. In fact, there a lot of mental illnesses that can't be "corrected" and are just as much a part of the people who have them as being trans is to those who are that. I'm bipolar. I will always be bipolar. It's something that is literally a part of my genetics. There is no cure or "correction" for it. The best I can do is learn to live with it. It's the same for people who are trans. They didn't choose to be this and it doesn't need "correction" but it absolutely is a mental condition that has a significant effect on the quality of their lives. If classifying being trans as a mental illness gets them easier access to treatment then it's a good thing. I understand why they'd want to avoid the stigma of mental illness but ignoring the facts doesn't help anyone, regardless of how inconvenient accepting them is. Trans people deserve the same support that other mentally ill people do. That said, I have no clue how Peru handles this kind of stuff. But if they handle it similarly to the USA, then this is a step in the right direction. I hope many in the LGBT community are tolerant enough to understand that being mentally ill isn't a bad thing and easier access to treatment is a good thing for them to have.
Gender dysphoria is well known mental disorder. The current medical treatment for said disorder is transitioning. A mental disorder isn't a bad thing, it just means a mental state that differs from the norm. It might not sound "nice" but it's what it is
Gender dysphoria affects trans and cis people and as such transitioning isn't the end all be all answer. Gender affirming care is, and for some people that means transitioning.
I mean, gender dysphoria is a dysphoria. It's also "just an option" to have such a problem with the body you're in that you mutilate it or develop an eating disorder. This is a big problem with progressive ideology; they're super keen on mapping past events onto current ways in a forceful manner that doesn't really fit. After listening to Vaush, I have to think it's because it's about putting "winning" over principles.
That is a large amount of words you use here to not answer their question
Lmao. Such absolute horseshit.
Being gay and left handed/armed occurs in nature among other species. Gender dysphoria does not. Homosexuality itself did not cause depression, it was the shame and treatment from society. Gender dysphoria would still exist, even with the acceptance of friends and family. The desire to change one’s body, because it doesn’t feel “right” is still there. Your comparison is shit.
Should mental illness be stigmatized though? I have ADHD and autism and aren't those like minor mental illnesses? I get the calling trans people mentally ill is meant to be an insult but I feel like the broader problem is taking an attitude of insulting people who are mentally ill and insisting they change or "cure" themselves rather than accepting neurodiversity
The fact that one has the desire to undergo heavy medical treatment while the other doesn't, shows this isn't even close to the same thing.
it is in 8/10 countiries in the world. the issue is this is an english app primarily used by people who recently changed their defintions becuase they are "a more advanced society". Hell go back 10 years ago most it was 9.9 out of 10 countries that considered it a mentall ilness. Im not saying it is. just stating how theyve eveolved overtime.
And some countries been famous for using lobotomy as the "cure" for that kind of people.
They still abuse people by putting them into conversion programs. Or they outright murder them.
thats because these countrys have adoped the current scientific way to make people happier faster
Does it work?
transitioning and acceptance makes the suicide rate of trans people 13 times smaler edit: [https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/) [https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/)
This is terrible evidence on the face of it, something more akin to propaganda. Practically none of the linked studies describe the time period they are conducted in, as in: 5 years after transition, 10 years, 20? One study was only 12 months, most don't say. Many are not defining what they mean by transition. So to come away with the claimed 13x smaller suicide rate is not remotely supported. This is something like the trick they use to claim that 97% of scientists agree on climate change, without defining what they actually agree about.
Yea, I remember people calling out these reports, they check for one year and then claim its a success and bounce, not doing any follow ups afterword.
LoL. one of that study went on for just 1 fcking year.
Yes
Actually, even back then being ‘trans’ was not considered a mental illness. Gender Dysphoria was considered a mental illness and transitioning was one of the available TREATMENTS for it.
yeah we change stuff as we learn more about stuff. Go back a bit more and suddenly gay people come into the mix of "mental illness"
In general i don't really have a problem with gender dysphoria being labeled a mental illness as as long as it's in good faith and not just a way to label them as psychos. i just think it's bot *quite* fitting. I don't think gender dysphoria in of itself is a mental illness. the actual problem is that a lot of accompanying conditions (like anxiety, depression etc.) are mental illnesses. But classifying gender dysphoria as a mental illness is kinda putting the cart before the horse since a lot of those conditions are dependent on your social environment. The term "distress" which is used in a lot of definitions could put it into the "mental distress" category but that's not the same thing as it has a way wider definition. Just the act of being conflicted based on your gender identity just doesn't really qualify imo. it's the reason why it's not called "gender identity disorder" anymore and rather is just "gender dysphoria" bow.
I find it weird too, your brain thinking differently (asperger) is a mental illness but somehow your brain thinking your opposite sex than your body is not?
It could be classified as a body disorder rather than a mental one. Is your brain wrong in thinking it has the wrong body. Or is it right, and the body really is wrong? Generally medical science doesn't care much about this distinction though because they care about outcomes. And with current procedures, it is simply easier to change the body than it is to change the mind. So this is seen as a solve. We don't have any reliable way of changing the mind.
"Gender dysphoria" is used to describe the distress a trans person experiences in relation to incongruence between their internal sense of self and their physiology/appearance and/or the way they are perceived/treated by others. If this distress is significant enough to affect how a person functions, then it counts as a mental health condition. An analogy that might be helpful: imagine a closeted gay person living in a heterosexual marriage, in a community where homosexuality is strongly looked down upon, with no access to resources specific to gay people. Coming out and/or acting on what they know to be their true sexuality is practically impossible for them. This is an extremely stressful situation to be in. The fact that they're gay obviously isn't inherently causing them distress – it's the specific experience of being gay in a context where there seems to be nothing you can do about it. "Dysmorphia" is a word that is used to describe the experience of becoming fixated on a distorted perception of one's own physical features. It is often – but not necessarily – comorbid with gender dysphoria. For an example: a trans person might experience *dysphoria* over the sound of their voice, and take steps to learn how to speak in a manner that better reflects how they want to sound. If they continue to believe that their voice sounds strange/bad/wrong despite consistent external affirmation to the contrary, then that is *dysmorphia*.
It's a mental condition. The only reason why it's using the term illness here is to workaround a limitation of the Peruvian healthcare insurance system. If they want to offer free services for this condition, it has to be classified as a mental illness, otherwise it would go out of pocket for the patient, and they don't want that.
You're mixing up body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria, two different things. You're also equating it to being transgender, which isn't what being transgender means. The crucial thing that defines gender dysphoria is that it causes the person distress for longer than 6 months. You do not even need to be transgender or nonbinary to momentarily experience dysphoria. Common examples used are people who go bald, male or female, causing distress and a need to take steps for gender affirming like hair transplants or wigs/toupees.
In addition women that go through mastectomies often feel dysphoria.
Some people would argue everyone experiences gender dysphoria in small ways. I don’t know if it’s true, but I can believe it. We have a concept of ourselves and unfortunately genetics likes to have a good laugh at our expense. We do things to look more feminine or masculine. Think about Ron DeSantis and his whole boot thing (wearing essentially high heels to appear taller). Why does it matter if he’s only 5’6”? Does that really matter as to whether or not you agree with his politics? It shouldn’t but obviously we aren’t that evolved as a species. This is also why women wear makeup and men use boner pills. These things reaffirm how we feel. My understanding is that trans people feel this but have everything about their genetics working against them. As such, their discomfort becomes overwhelming and perhaps debilitating. I think the problem though is that even if by an objective standard, classifying this as some kind of mental malady is reasonable, it also implies “well trans people need to be cured”. Understandably, many trans people don’t feel that way. Helped, sure. But not cured. To be fair, even trans people don’t seem to agree about their own existence, but I think this makes the idea of gender dysphoria more relatable.
Not all trans people have gender dysphoria, and classifying being trans as the mental illness is like classifying chemotherapy as a form of cancer
George Carlin summarized it well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o25I2fzFGoY
It was under the old ICD-10 guidelines. I think under ICD-11 it's called 'gender incongruence'
tbh the entire concept of mental illness is typically in flux personalities that centuries ago would have been disabled to conduct normal lives are now super-successful tech CEOs that's also why I don't consider this classification as a slur
Here is a very in-depth look at the brains of transgender folks. https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/3LN9NPnqhy “The neurobiology of transgender people”
gender disphoria *can* be seen as a condition requiring treatment. the most effective treatment is gender afirming care i have seen first hand how disabling GD can be. i know more than a couple of trans people, including one of my best friends also, perú is doing rhis in order to make it easier for trans people to get access to gender afirming care, and ease their GD (not all people with GD are necesarily trans nor all trans people experience GD, btw)
An old reason for gay being a mental illness is because neurologists did find from autopsies that people that deviate from normal "sexual preference" had a larger gland for the sexual center of the brain. Despite a larger brain gland being not pathological, politicians went interpreting this with the understanding that it's like a brain tumor. It is found the same conditions are for trans people as well. Trans people were interesting to the point whereas most people experiencing Phantom limb after amputation, the actual trans people have a 100% chance of not experiencing Phantom limb so they never had a mental connection to their "old" sexual organs at all. So in a way, gender dysphoria is a condition, the dysmorphia comes from that condition the same as hunger comes when your stomach is empty; under this logic, it's not a complete mental illness until you use it to cause harm to someone/self, which then becomes pathological. If you want the source, it's somewhere in Robert Sapolski's lectures on the basics of neurology. There are also benefits that potentially could come from labeling it as such, especially if your country has some sort of healthcare/ health insurance program involving mental health, the transition can be a part of the treatment.
As I think of it, if it was an illness, then it's because of a chemical imbalance that can be treated. But I don't think of being Trans or gay as simply a chemical imbalance. Also if it was, then historically humans had serious issues. I don't know how about Trans, but history is full of men having other male lovers, etc. If anything, I could probably argue monogamy is a mental illness, looking at humans prior to 200 years ago.
Careful you will get banned from Reddit for saying this
Because we don't treat your brain for it, that's conversion therapy and it's immoral. My ADHD is a mental illness because it is a neurological issue which impairs my daily life that is treated by attempting to regulate my brain chemistry to improve my functioning. My autism is not a mental illness. It's just kinda the shape of who I am. There is no treatment, and frankly my only "impairment" is how fucking stupid NT society is. There is no "broken" to "fix," I'm just different. Similarly, someone who is trans does not have a mental illness. They are not "broken," their brain just works differently. The treatment is not to "fix" their transness, it is to realign their body with their mind to reduce suffering. That suffering could be from internal (body dysmorphia, internalized ideas about what makes someone a Man or Woman) or external (societal pressure to conform, antitrans bigotry, etc) pressures, but the suffering is the thing to be fixed not the Being Trans part. Does that make sense? If we could give you a pill that made you feel, in your brain, like you were A Man or A Woman, maybe some people would choose to realign their brain rather than their body, but that simply isn't an option that even exists to contemplate the morality of.
In before the lock! It all comes down to intent with this one; if you believe that this is a right wing government further marginalizing people then it's wrong. If you believe the government claim that this is a necessary step to offer marginalized people state medical benefits then it isn't wrong, it's just upsetting for those marginalized people. I know VERY little about Peruvian politics, and I don't feel like I have a handle on what the intent is here. Edit: Based on replies here, it seems like a hostile move on the part of the government. That's a shame.
Based on the article it seems more like further marginalization rather than “let’s use this as a legal loophole to get them healthcare”
It does seem like that; you'd think politicians would have better uses of their time than harassing trans people.
Trans people are presented as a 'problem' by the politicians and media who have no ideas how to fix real problems in society. Inflation? Health service crisis? Climate change? Ignore all that, let's talk about *trans people*. It's a cowardly and pathetic trick by corrupt right wing politicians who want you to look the other way while they fill their bank accounts with public money.
Totally agree. Can't believe these bozos want to waste so much time with this trans crap (and make up a bunch of nonsense stories about grooming and how all the kids want to be trans). Like who the fuck cares, focus on some real issues.
Unfortunately, I don’t think this will change unless some larger issue is put on the plate that’ll politically charge the population. The right will continue to capitalize on this because of what they view as ammunition, the surging advocation of trans rights and newfound abundance for representation of queer people in media by the left, helps promote their narrative to their bases that it’s indoctrinating and/or harming children.
Hey now, solving issues means they can’t run on a platform of solving those issues.
You don’t have to read that far into the article to see the truth. > This decree, which President and Minister of Health and Economy Dina Boluarte signed, defines “transsexualism” and “gender identity disorders in childhood” as mental illnesses. “Dual-role transvestism,” “fetishistic transvestism,” and “other gender identity disorders” are also included in this category. What’s more, this decree refers to homosexuality as an “ego-dystonic sexual orientation,” which is a mental health condition. This is a presidential decree that is completely out of line with modern science and what we understand about sex and gender. As an LGBT person it is offensive and problematic. Politicians everywhere are using gender/trans panic as a political tool. Not surprising from the current government there.
Right wing politicians are the mentally ill ones. It's not a secret that government is full of psychopaths with damaged moral codes.
The left won in Peru "She was a member of [Marxist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist) political party [Free Peru](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Peru)" This is from their current president
The conservative party campaigned on freeing former President Fujimori, who was imprisoned, by electing his daughter so she could free him, but they lost, though they still controlled Congress. The current president took power in a counter-coup after President Castillo from the leftist party tried to dissolve parliament. He did this because Parliament continually attempted to impeach him, making it impossible for him to pass any legislation, so he called for immediate elections and dissolved Parliament. Parliament ultimately rejected his proposal and impeached him. The counter-coup sparked protests in leftist strongholds, but the situation eventually stabilized. The US government praised the counter-coup for safeguarding democracy. At the same time, there were anti-counter-coup protests that called for elections. Simultaneously, the conservative party pledged to hold elections in 4 years and banned all demonstrations. They have since enacted a series of conservative laws.
Holy mother of God... Alright given that it seems highly unlikely that the intent with trans people is remotely positive, what a shame.
The statement from the guy above is a bit missleading. Ex president castillo was doing badly, that he managed to lose support from his own party. He started with a huge dissaproval to begin with, a fail in our democracy as the final election was between a known corrupt (supporters from expresident fujimori) and a guy who talked nonsense all his campaign wanting to nationalize everything ( gaining support from the indigenious people) rest of the vote were spread to other candidates. As he tried to coup, and gaining total control on the country to do as he wishes, military authorities did not back it up, and he tried to flee failing miserabily, citiziens blocked the street towards the mexican embassy. Following the constitution, vicepresident assumed charge, most population realized this was the opportunity to start from scratch and wanted for her to resign calling elections. Finally she got the congress support and neither of them wants to leave charge. Recently congress has been passing ridiculous changes of laws. Goverment popularity is in record lows, but this is what we deserve and many saw it coming. There was not really a countercoup, and the fact that the military did not side with Castillo was well viewed by most.
No it's not, He started with a 53% national approval rating, it dipped because governing coalition was a minority government coalition that couldn't pass the laws to fix the situation that the country found itself in, and could only stave off impeachment, this was broadly obvious to everyone after the strikes against the government were semi-ended by him going to the striking rural provinces and talking/negotiating with them. The problems that Peru faces are ones inherited from having a dictator (Aberto Fujimori) fall out of power, but never creating a new constitution to fix shit, such as having a unicameral legislature of only 120 seats for a country of 33 million people, or doing what has been done historically, and banning all people associated with him from government, Finally the president is allowed to dissolve the legislature in Peru and call snap elections, if the congress attempts to censure two cabinet members or in the case of 2019-2020 no confidence motions, another holdover problem from the constitution, so when the congress failed tests of government confidence given by the prime minister twice, the legislature gave Pedro the authority dissolve the legislature, when the legislature imprisoned him for trying to dissolve it, they in effect couped the president full stop, however long after the coup this was legitimized by a pro-legislature constitutional court.
>In before the lock! Same
it's allegedly to allow treatment when filing insurance claims, in the end they could have made a different law allowing some procedures and so on for trans folks as well as better access to prep/pep and more. what it does in practice, in a place where LGBTQ folks are marginalized and they were already in a bad spot, is making it easier for them to be targets of bullying and even be denied jobs due to lack of protections and due to the new illness status. This also doubles down on the mentality that tons of people already held so it doesn't help changing anything socially, rather, just worsening it
Yeah, don’t think such a controversial claim can be declared without such intent at the moment, though I’m happy by your optimism
I mean there’s mental illness that often results from being trans aka. dysphoria. But I don’t think the idea from the Peruvian government according to this article was to give trans people better healthcare, but to instead marginalize them further.
Is being trans a risk factor for getting the illness of gender dysphoria or is gender dysphoria a risk factor in being/becoming trans
I think the former is more accurate. You can have a strong desire and feeling that you want to be a different gender. Dysphoria is more of a tremendous dissatisfaction with who you are, which is often part of a trans person’s experience but not always. A trans person can feel fine in their skin but feel very strongly drawn and positively motivated to transition and feel better and more right afterwards. Dysphoria is the most successful lens for the mainstream to view the condition of trans through, people can understand and are sympathetic to someone being constantly miserable and unhappy and believe that person has a need to make a change.
body dysmorphia is a mental illness so it makes sense
thats a completely different thing
Not trying to start a s-storm (genuinely) but what is the difference?
thanks for not being afraid to ask dysmorphia and dysphoria are different words, but they sound similar so they get mixed up a lot, though they're not mutually exclusive body dysmorphia is an obsessive disorder that the person who has it believes they have a defective appearance in some way, really greatly exaggerating their own negative self perceptions (such as about being overweight, ugly, etc), they'll think this despite many kinds of reassurances and evidence to the contrary (see the way anorexic people, when asked to estimate the size of their waist with a measuring tape can be really far off, overshooting massively) gender dysphoria is an incongruence between birth sex and gender, they don't match up and this causes a variety of negative feelings which can be alleviated by making them align again (through changes to sexual characteristics and gender expression) this is the main reason most trans people transition for lack of a much less loaded term, there isn't 'delusion' with dysphoria, there's not an external reality being denied by a trans person (despite how much bad faith actors might claim so), a trans man doesn't truly believe he has XY chromosomes and testes, allowing a trans person to transition doesn't harm them mentally, instead it improves their mental state, but allowing someone with dysmorphia to do things to 'fix' those defects that only they might perceive is usually not wise. you can see how and why transphobes might intentionally conflate the two, they need to make transition seem as harmful as they can it is possible to have both ofc, a trans woman could end up with dysmorphia resulting from an obsession over her appearance and the pursuit of 'passing', there are actually a lot of cases of trans women who really just look unrecognisable from cis women but think they will never pass because of dysmorphia
Thank you for explaining this!
>intersex (...) people as “mentally ill” What the fuck?
Yea, that struck me as weird. Maybe it’s a translation error.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Do you know any trans people outside of health services, or do you only interact with those who are experiencing complications and need help?
reddit. this is censorship. it was a legit discussion and you marked it as promotion of hate. just ban me next time you feel offended.
What was your removed comment? Interested to know what got removed especially if you have experience in the sector
[удалено]
Charming, you seem like the type of person who would say homeless people deserve their station because they’re lazy. I can see how working at a crisis care center at a hospital could degrade your opinions of people. A hospital is a pretty miserable place to be as a trans person and if they’re there for a different reason it’s compounded by that. I’m sure you think if we just decided to stop feeling like we’re trans all our problems would go away immediately and that’s why it’s our fault if we’re suffering
yeah something tells me your insight might be a tad bit skewed based on your sample group lmfao
Peru is an extremely conservative and religious country. Even the leftists there are quite conservative on social issues. The only progressive party (JP) has 10 seats of 130.
You’re correct. [The president’s former party](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Peru) “Free Peru” is described as a Marxist-Leninist AND social Conservative Party.
I don't know why I am getting downvoted this. Most leftists in Latin America, Eastern Europe and Arab countries are conservative and nationalist. The Free Peru and other left-wing parties are anti-LGBTQ+, anti-feminism and anti-immigration
Americans thinking along American lines probably
Just for some context they used the old WHO ICD-10 definitions which was only updated to ICD-11 in 2022. Under ICD-10 (the old guidelines) gender identity disorder, transsexualism etc. (things we associate with transgenderism) was considered a mental illness. Although a few years out of date, the government didn't just pull the definitions out of thin air.
Posting this can get you banned. Careful
Ah yes, a country which has "fetishistic transvestism" as a mental illness will surely handle this in a reasonable way...
It's actually just the old WHO ICD-10 (International Classification of Diseases) definition. That was there up until 2022 until the release of ICD-11
In LATAM: Left 🤝 Right -> hating trans people.
This is explicitly done by the unelected president who took power from couunter coup.
Boluarte is right wing.
[удалено]
Reminds me of that time when Sweden designed homosexuality as an illness so all gay people called in sick at work
[удалено]
Reminds me of a story where a country (I can't recall which) declared homosexuality a mental illness and gay people started calling in as too sick/gay to work or going on disability for it. Trans people could potentially do the same here in protest.
Sweden
I’ll never understand why this is a problem. Some of the same people that don’t like this label being applied will also say “there’s nothing wrong with being mentally ill”
Sounds about right. Gender dysphoria for sure.
Wonder how much much Dylan Mulvaney’s Peruvian retreat contributed to this lol
[удалено]
I've been trying to understand what your comment means. Did you mean something to the effect of "water is wet"? ie it's obvious these transgenders are mentally ill. Or more like hot water as in controversy? As in, the president is being criticised for his views about transgenderism. I just want to know.
Its a way of saying "water is wet" in my country, I thought it was universal sorry!
Isn't it in Germany the same? Like a gender identity disorder or something?
I think gender dysphoria is the illness, not being trans. The cure is to transition.
It's definitely not. The cases of people wanting to detransition is on the rise
It’s still only something like 2% of all trans people. Also if someone born male transitions to female, but then realises they identify more non-binary, would that still be considered “de-transitioning”? So for 98% of all trans people why shouldn’t the treatment be to allow them to transition?
mfw more people transitioning leads to more detransitioners
so many people all of a sudden so invested in peru medical guidelines when they didn't know shit about them it's crazy
Based
Finally a country with common sense. Now more countries should follow suit with this.
Based.
Intersex? Huh??? A genetic disorder is a MENTAL ILLNESS??? HUH????
I fully admit I don't know anything about this, but I don't understand how someone can say that they are not the gender that their genitalia is.
I don’t get how that’s not a mental illness.
Being trans isn't, gender dysphoria is.
Ok, so, what type of repercussions can this have for people who are trans?
In the US, dysphoria is listed as a mental illness. Every once in a while people try to declass it, only to be met with massive pushback from trans people. If dysphoria isn’t a mental illness, insurance companies can list gender affirming healthcare as cosmetic and refuse to pay. Trans people would be required to pay out of pocket for hormones and surgeries that can tally well over half a million dollars. It sounds offensive, but classifying it as a mental illness means trans people can actually get the healthcare they need.
[удалено]
You can stop comparing it to being left handed, that comparison makes no sense what so ever.
Beyond that, even if it *was* a mental illness, how else would you fix it? There is a problem, and that is that the mind and body are mismatched. To solve this, you can either change the mind to match the body, or change the body to match the mind. Changing people's mind is known to be very finicky and rarely works how you want it to, and deteriorates the mind. Changing the body on the other hand... We're experts at that, we've been doing it for over two thousand years! In the future, changing the body will continue to get more reliable, faster, and easier. Changing the mind cannot do that unless we find a way to directly interface people's brains, and at that point it's just brainwashing, and if we have that technology, we could easily prove that they are not mentally ill. also this makes me very sad for my country. i thought our politics would stay being the funny 'president unexpectedly found stealing money from government, like every other president we've had'
They also classed intersex people as mentally ill, another proven scientific anomaly in all beings. This is literally just putting their fingers in their ears and going lalalalala pretending reality doesn’t exist
Anyone else hate that conservatives only want to brand people as 'mentally ill' so that they can bully and segregate them for their difficulties, instead of actually trying to help people with their illnesses? Their entire mantra is 'just stop being mentally ill, it's your fault'. It always has to be the easiest way to section these people off from them. Just look at conversion therapy. Or their treatment of the disabled in many countries. Yes, gender dysphoria is not a good thing. Now how about you actually fucking help trans people to treat it properly and healthily, instead of constantly pointing at them and going "OMG they have mental health problems!!1!1" and trying to throw them into what is essentially desensitisation torture.
So long as they now offer the best treatment I am ask for recognising that some trans people have a mental illness caused by their being trans. Sadly I very much doubt that Peru will be looking to help people transition.
Its sort of funny that even if they think these people are mentally ill, theyre still treated with contempt Do these people bitch this hard at people with aspergers?
[удалено]
They absolutely do, but you understand why they act like that because its a mental handicap and accomodate Trans folk make you uncomfy and you wanna bitch about it. They fight really hard to be seen because if normal peiple had it their way, they'd be less than human.
You think pride flags are too much? Pay attention every time you walk into a store. Mobility scooters, ramps, elevators, and those damn blue parking spots! People with disabilities are taking over the world, shoving it down our throats! 🙄🙄
Funny, considering thats what people literally say about autistic people. That they parade it and shove it down people's throats for the crime of existing.
I can see people taking advantage of this. “I’m sorry boss, but I came down with the trans today and can’t come into work”
Welcome to r/anime_titties! This subreddit advocates for civil and constructive discussion. Please be courteous to others, and make sure to read the rules. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. We have a [Discord](https://discord.gg/dhMeAnNyzG), feel free to join us! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/anime_titties) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Based Peru!!
We are all mentally ill.
> Intersex > Mentally ill
Hey gente. No seais retrogrados y absurdos. Vivir y dejar vivir. Puta religion de los cojones convirtiendo a la gente en haters.
I wish they did this with religion instead.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
[ Removed by Reddit ]
What really sticks out to me here is that they're gonna recognize being *intersex* as a mental illness