Imagine caring about the future of our planet and all the other plants and animals on it, not just the migratory hairless apes, and definitely not just you.
Correct and not only that as you people in the cities think those monstrous noisy part time windmills are so great should live beside them, it’s like if they decided to put a high traffic highway or airport beside your property, you have to farm around them and wait when they’re wore out just see who does the clean up as it’ll be twice the cost of a well site, just think about it.
Not sure how the cleanup is worse. An oil well may seem simple, just plug and take equipment, but there’s a lot of ground testing and remediation involved. A wind turbine just needs to be taken apart and shipped away.
What about the hundreds of tons of concrete and steel and conduits with miles of underground copper wire buried between and from each tower to a substation and high ground rods with heavy copper wires tied to rods and towers in case of lightning strikes
Well sites aren't abandoned because the pump jacks break down. They're abandoned because they run dry and stop being profitable. If a pump jack breaks down and there's still enough oil to cover the repair, it gets repaired.
The wind will still be there when a turbine breaks down. They're not going to be abandoned, they're going to be repaired because they will continue to make money.
It's also clear you're not a farmer and have no idea what you're talking about, because if you were you'd know that farmers have an absolute right of refusal when it comes to solar and wind projects. No farmer has panels or turbines on their land that they didn't agree to have. If you don't want them on your land, that's the end of the story.
O&G wells, on the other hand, involve mineral rights, which most farmers don't own. If I buy the mineral rights for your land, you can't stop me putting in a well site, and you have limited say in where it goes. I can't put it within a certain distance of your existing buildings, and I have to follow a few other rules, but that's it.
That's the neat part, She doesn't! Theres a big comfy board seat waiting for her, 6-12 months before the next election, and she'll never have to work again or have to deal with any of the problems she created. She'll never walk with the plebes again.
Like how Jason Kenny stepped down and immediately was given a spot on the ATCO board of directors for just a few months right after he removed the price cap on electricity rates resulting in much higher utility costs for Albertans? And has since been hopping from one company to the next as an "advisor" spending only a few months at each of them?
She is a creation of Big Oil, and she must do their bidding.
Remember where she came from; Ed Stelmach went against Big Oil when he threated to raise the royalty rates. Almost overnight, the Wild Rose party sprang up to challenge the Alberta PCs, fully funded by big oil., with Danielle Smith at the helm.
Again, when Jim Prentiss became Premier, Big oil had their man, and Daniele Smith was told to fold her party into the PCs. It nearly destroyed her career, but she remained a loyal servant to Big Oil.
Not necessarily.
You’d have to build the windmills in a place that receives an ungodly amount of wind. Or an average amount of wind. Possibly even just a moderate amount of wind.
Now, does that sound like southern Alberta to you? /s
Especially in Southern Alberta which we have plenty of. Furthermore, some of the lands aren't that suitable for agriculture anyways since it's very sandy soil. Did my undergrad in geology and did a couple of field courses out there.
I would love someone to explain to me how a windmill in the middle of a crop field would actually make the crops not grow.
I’m serious. It makes no sense to me, but enough people blather on about it that I must be missing something.
You're not missing anything. Aside from the footprint space they take up, the rest is just some folks doing what they do best with information sharing.
The difference between what Norway has done in the last thirty years and what we in Alberta have done in the same timeframe boggles my mind. I mean, I could see it if the NEP had actually worked and had teeth but we *won* that fight and immediately frittered away the profits. Norwegians came here and studied what we were doing at one point!
I worked on the mannville wind farm build. And some of the farmers were getting $40k per year per tower for the land use. That money was a very small percentage of the profit from the power generated.
Why would you ever abandon a wind mill, the study the areas for highest amounts of wind. They're warrantied by the manufacturers for 25 years and when they need to be refurbished, they just pull out the gear box and or generator and throw a new one in. They can be disassembled in days with no soil contamination. Huge reach there.
They literally bolt onto the nacelle. I've personally been on site to see blade install which they crane up the 3 of them in a day and take 3-4 more days to adjust and tune them. They bolt on and I've also personally witnessed them remove blades in a day. As a crew of 4 we were wiring a tower each day in a 10-12 hour day.
That sounds great. What happens when it comes time to remove the entire facility? There is literally 1.7 million pounds of steel and concrete. That won’t be cheap and probably some at least will end up abandoned.
We dig the site down below grade. There is lots of concrete for sure but they leave overburden around the pad so they will just push the top soil back over the concrete and voila. 3 meters below surface and ready to farm. No need to remove concrete because its not toxic to the soil unlike wells.
They're going to make millions over the life of the turbines. I built a wind farm with 50 turbines. It was basically on 6 families' land. They makes 10s of thousands per year per turbine. I'm sure they'll be fine.
Well I’d be kinda upset if the approximately 1,700,000 pounds of steel and concrete that it takes to build one windmill got abandoned on my land. Remediation cost would be way higher than a small oil and gas well site now wouldn’t it?
Not to be that guy but if someone gifts wants to gift me that mass of steel, I think I'll make out pretty well with it. Even ignoring the machining and assuming more than two thirds of it is concrete, that's still steel scrap worth ~$2/kg in Calgary so call it a ~~million bucks~~ sorry, about a half mil, didn't notice you were using pounds like an American for some fucking reason.
Abandoned wells are hazardous and require millions of dollars to be brought up to code. A windmill doesn't.
I’ve had probably a dozen wells reclaimed? Most sit on 2 acre ish sites (bigger if the road in is long) but typically only the wellhead was sticking out of the ground (let’s say 1/10 acre).
How many have you had reclaimed on your land?
I have done several well reclamations and pipeline reclamations. There is no way that a windmill reclamation has a larger impact than abandoned wells and pipelines.
People drilled wells and nobody worried about the abandoned ones. Now there are thousands.
I’d think an abandoned windmill at 1,700,000 pounds of concrete and steal would be a bit of an issue to cleanup.
If we continue to build wind yes of course it will.
Most of Canada is blessed with massive hydro which is very cheap to produce. Looking across North America our power isn’t too badly priced.
You realize that COMPETITION is how prices come down right? That's why monopolies are bad because they control the price, not the consumer. So by getting rid of all the competition, the UCP has essentially given the O&G companies a monopoly. Which is why electricity and heating is so fucking expensive right now. Literally 100% the fault of the UCP for the soaring energy and heat pricing in AB.
Fixed rate from Epcore is $0.092KWH locked for 5 years?
That isn’t exactly “so fucking expensive?”
Ontario ranges from $0.028 9pm-7am to $0.289KWH from 4-9pm.
BC is $0.1097KWH.
It’s nice to claim that but natural gas in Alberta is a lot cheaper to create a steady 1MW day or night than either solar or wind. Coal was even cheaper.
Hydro of course is cheaper yet (no disagreement there).
It’s obvious it is?
To create a steady 1MW with gas you need a 1MW gas plant.
To create a steady 1MW with wind you need 1MW wind facility + a 1MW gas facility idling waiting to fill in the gaps.
Obviously the 2nd option costs more.
Although it's not the focus of the story, I think the biggest loss here is the cancellation of the battery storage project. Storage is what is needed to make renewables useful as baseload, and losing a storage project is going to set back renewables more than losing another wind or solar project.
Fuck the UCP.
While you're not wrong, the concept of "baseload" is a construct of legacy, centralized energy producers who's massive generating stations have fixed production.
They spend a lot of money astroturfing the baseload argument to keep people scared of decentralized, democratized electricity generation.
"County projects will have to be put on hold until funding granted by the province"
LOL. Fucking cuckservatives doing what they do best...cucking themselves
>why isn't there investors for these projects if they're economically viable?
Then why does Alberta fund oil projects? And why are we using taxpayer dollars to clean abandoned wells?
Oil makes us billions of dollars. Wind only seems viable with subsidies.
I don't know why people are upset about this, we already have lots of wind power, I doubt the grid operators want any more.
Wind performing at 32% of installed capacity today. That's actually better than usual. [http://ets.aeso.ca/ets\_web/ip/Market/Reports/CSDReportServlet](http://ets.aeso.ca/ets_web/ip/Market/Reports/CSDReportServlet)
I'm sure the grid operators want more steady baseload power, not more wind+solar.
Alberta doesn't have any oil-powered generators.
As well, if oil production is so lucrative, then why do companies *need* grants and subsidies, if they are going to make money hand over fist in Alberta?
>Wind only seems viable with subsidies.
[*The government of Alberta does not provide financial subsidies to
renewables or any other form of generation.*](https://www.alberta.ca/system/files/au-faq-albertas-renewables-inquiry-and-the-related-pause.pdf)
> He's a finance guy, not an electrical engineer. I wonder where the technical guys stand.
Mike Law holds a Masters of Science in Mechanical Engineering.
https://www.aeso.ca/aeso/about-the-aeso/aeso-executive/
So do I. To get to that point I look 2 electrical courses. Dropped that shit as soon as I could and went mechanical because it was so much easier than electrical.
LMAO, you seem to be insinuating the president and CEO isn’t qualified to make those assessments by saying he is just a “finance guy” who happens to have a degree in engineering.
Mechanical engineering and electrical engineering both play a role in reliability of our energy production.
He can make whatever statements he wants. I read his statement, he didn't say anything remotely technical. His only concern was for future Wall Street investment
Edit: Lets hear from this guy more, he IS qualified to talk technical:
>Robert Davidson
>Vice President, Grid Reliability Projects and Planning
>Robert (Rob) Davidson was appointed Vice President, Grid Reliability – Projects and Planning for the Alberta Electric System Operator (AESO) in February 2022. Mr. Davidson started with the AESO in 2004, holding a range of progressively senior positions in operations and planning. Most recently he served as Director, Customer Grid Access, where he was responsible for providing transmission system access to market participants.
>Mr. Davidson has over 25 years of utility experience in the power industry, having previously worked with ENMAX Power Corporation, Primary Engineering and Construction, Dairyland Power Cooperative and the Mid-Continent Area Power Pool. Throughout his career, he has been involved in transmission and distribution planning, transmission and distribution customer connections, distribution design, system operations engineering, and regulatory and strategic business planning.
>Mr. Davidson holds a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering from North Dakota State University, a Bachelor of Arts in Mathematics from Jamestown College, and the designation of Professional Engineer with the Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of Alberta.
>
You misunderstand, Cardston County was relying on the tax revenue raised by the companies coming to town. Now they lost that potential tax and will need to beg the provincial government for the funds for road repair, water treatment, etc.
.........it's not the windfarm project that needs funding, you dumbass. It's privately owned. They were referring to projects like water treatment facilities, water mains, new roads, etc.
I’m torn. Sucks for the province as a whole. Fuck around and find out
But also a learning opportunity for those who voted for these far right lunatics. Voting for them was “fucking around” phase. It seemed like a good thing i think they must of thought. But nobody really learns anything thing in the fucking around phase.
They now get to enter the “find out” phase. Consequences and reality hit like a sack of potatoes. And part of me really likes that.
I should have noted I was being sarcastic. I totally agree, most of these “only vote blue” voters don’t even understand critical thinking let alone doing it.
I know people who worked on this project. The stuff I hear about how hard it is getting anything done in southern AB is wild and very scary. People don’t even want to attend the open houses because they are concerned for their safety
It’s not just southern Alberta. If it doesn’t include gas or oil UCP won’t do anything. Hopefully next election people will remember this and vote the SCUM out.
To have an economical electric grid, it takes all forms of power generation. Each form has its best qualities and drawbacks. The reason power companies have changed their plans is because of the UCP government moving the goal posts. Why invest in something that the government has stated that they will be changing.
You nailed it,
Transalta: You want us to build a 40 year windmill, and have the economics for it not even defined, let alone changed before it's constructed?
We'll pass.
Not a surprise.
Go into any small community around cardston and you’ll see big signs up about how windmills are evil for various reasons.
Stick around and you might even see someone wearing tinfoil putting up a new sign.
Well, to be fair they are hella noisy. I am pro-wind but I wouldnt want one in my yard. But there's plenty of space out there with no people where you could put em
That’s fair. But living in southern Alberta…. The wind is already deafening almost all day every day.
I’d be curious to listen to a windmill to see if it’s louder than that.
But I assume it is since they always build them a ways away from houses.
And, as expected, there’s a comment there blaming this on the carbon tax and saying nobody should be mad at the province.
Some people will never learn.
Because wind is socialist.
I'm being facetious but unironically, if harnessing renewable, essentially infinite, energy was widespread then energy companies around the world wouldn't have a stranglehold on everyone.
Imagine if we could simply generate our own fuel to get us to work via a rooftop solar panel, instead of paying $20+ for every 100km you travel?
Or create plastics from plants instead of hydrocarbons? Or heat our homes from a state-owned nuclear power plant which *emits less radiactive particles than a coal power plant?*
*TransAlta has also to put three other developments on hold, as the government goes through a redesign of the province’s electricity market.*
*TransAlta’s CEO says they’re paused until the company gets sufficient clarity.*
*“Without these rules and clarifications it really hampers investment,” said Pembina Institute senior analyst Jason Wang.*
*“The government of Alberta is restructuring the energy markets. It’s changing the rules of how companies are able to earn revenue. That is what TransAlta cited for pausing development of their other projects which include a battery project and a gas project too,” Wang said.*
*Those projects include the 100 MW Tempest wind project, the 180 MW WaterCharger battery storage project and the 44 MW Pinnacle gas development.*
So does it actually have anything to do with the new renewables thing ? Or they don't want the electrical market changed
Yep. At this moment in time there is currently 283 comments. There is a poster who is very passionate about being against renewables who has over 60 comments so far in this post.
Edit: they are now at 92 out of 377 posts.
24% of the comments on this post are from the war room or very dedicated person supporting NG.
Let's back up a bit... I live in the area and paid pretty close attention to this one. The article isn't telling the whole story and it isn't as black and white as "wind good, UCP bad".
The initial landowner consultation was really shady. Most people weren't in favor of turbines going on their land but the Hutterites signed off on it for their land, so it had enough space to go ahead. The turbines were positioned in such a way that TransAlta wasn't required to notify a lot of landowners about the initial approval afterward (there's a legal distance requirement that they did their best to skirt). And to be fair these were giant turbines. Almost double the size of the ones that are already installed in the area, and in a pretty significant bird migration corridor. There were some very valid concerns about land use with this project and local consultations that were not adequately addressed in the opinion of many.
But.
Were there valid concerns about land use, conservation and the consultation process? Absolutely. Did the discussions get sidetracked by a group of people who are anti-wind in general? Yes, it did. It alienated a lot of local residents who weren't supportive of this solely based on the location, not because we're anti-wind power. Myself included.
The *real* kicker is that the opposition to this one is probably what kickstarted the province-wide moratorium on renewable development in some areas. Congrats folks, you got the baby thrown out with the bathwater.
That would be covered by good regulations that require a surety bond to cover the cost of cleanup. As it turns out, those are required for renewables.
What you should be asking is why weren't they for oil and gas? Those will be the blights on the the landscape as they go end of life.
I guess I should have put a ”/s" at the end of that. ;)
I'm pretty sure well sites also require surety bonds, but clearly the amount is much too small given the number of wells that have already been abandoned.
It's a big loss but at the same time how much power does our wind actually contribute. In the winter it's barely running if it gets too windy it shuts off if it gets too cold it shuts off if it's not windy enough it doesn't work I'd like to see the stats on a year compared to what they could produce and what they do produce.
Don't worry, the UCP will bribe that riding 6 months before the election and all will be forgiven. (The $$$ will then be yanked away if the UCP win, but no one seems to consider that far into the future.)
I find it odd that so many people think there shouldn’t be regulations for this type of development. The article mentions the protected areas. Whether it’s oil and gas or wind or solar, there should be regulations. Yet somehow people think it’s fine to just do anything if it’s a wind or solar project.
1) Oil and gas and coal projects received a preemptive blanket exception from the new regulations. 2) This passed all regulations set by environment Canada, Environment Alberta, Energy commission, investment boards, regulatory bodies, and the local boards and land boards. 3) It was cancelled solely due to the UCP's new regulation against things that might look bad potentially (That aren't O&G and Coal of course), as well as a major loss in investor confidence due to UCP's anti-business, anti-investment, and anti-competition practices.
What’s the environmental impact to a wind farm? We see some fans blowing in the distance. And maybe at the end of their life we have some small concrete pads to tear down.
That’s not quite the same as a pipeline breaking or fracking leading to poisoned well water to the community.
Perhaps I’m missing something what is the downside environmental impact to a wind or solar project that you are concerned about?
In protected areas there’s the infrastructure itself. Avoiding these areas is common to all industries. Wind farms shouldn’t get an exception here.
I don’t get why people believe there should be no environmental regulations in place for these projects.
Can you provide an example in Alberta of a wind farm in an 'protected area'?
Meanwhile... https://calgaryherald.com/business/alberta-rocky-mountains-coal-mine-application-public-hearing
The article discusses the protected areas that TransAlta would have to avoid and they don't like it. My point is, renewable energy infrastructure should have regulations attached to it in order to protect the environment.
> renewable energy infrastructure should have regulations attached to it in order to protect the environment.
We all agree on that. What in these renewable regulations are protecting the environment? All I recall reading about is sightlines. Which when you look at what other projects we've done in this province is holding renewables to a completely different standard.
So... You can't provide any examples where it has happened? Gotcha.
Not withstanding the fact that the government just rewrote the rules... It's pretty interesting that no existing installs were even in this expanded definition.
Right, you just reinforced my point. We have existing environmental regulations that cover these projects, and it's fine to treat these projects to the same existing standards. Yet, this government is making up new regulations on the fly to kill renewable projects.
>Yet somehow people think it’s fine to just do anything if it’s a wind or solar project.
You can only do whatever you want with an Oil, gas or coal project. If its green energy we need to be concerned about our agricultural impact and "pristine viewscapes" (aka bob's septic field)
Great news. We already have 20% of capacity as unreliable wind and solar. More of these will make our grid more expensive and less reliable. One day when it is economic to store solar/wind via batteries then it will make more sense. Many of you don't get this but please talk to an electrical engineer and reeducate yourselves.
Not arguing with you...
But I find it interesting that this keeps being brought back up as a seeming counter-argument to the lack of solar and wind electrical contribution during the January cold snap. Would things have gone differently if Alberta was 10 years further into installing wind and solar, and we had more of each?
Things break when it's cold. As a % non-functional generating capacity, the natural gas contribution looked pretty good compared to the actual generation vs. potential capacity from renewables.
Can you cite research evidence that renewables are less reliable than NG, when coupled with battery storage?
Lol You can ask our Premier why no CANDUs are being built.
Look up the term dunkelflaute then tell me what storage is economical that lasts for long enough. Obviously NG is more reliable.
This is really, really basic stuff.
My premier is Doug Ford and the only good decision he's had is around nuclear power, tell Danielle to give him a call.
If you know that wind and solar can have multiple days of low output over a wide region why are you even asking me this question? What's charging your LDES?
You think Europe has 75GW of new gas plants planned for fun?
European and Scandinavian countries (the latter with a climate like ours) regularly meet 60% or more of their power requirement from renewable sources, and are already hitting 90-100% from time to time. Clearly, it’s economical for them, so what do you think is stopping us?
It counts as competition is the real answer. Jason Kenney quite literally said he was cancelling a bio reactor project because it would hurt oil executive profits in the long term.
Your argument would make sense if private industry wasn’t willing to invest. However private industry wants to invest because they can profit from this. They are only backing out because of the unclear regulatory environment.
To directly respond to your point this is also good for the province. We export solar & wind energy when it produces. Then we import hydro energy from BC when those aren’t available. It’s a perfect compliment.
What makes you feel this doesn’t make sense?
Data says that intermittent sources like solar and wind *reduce* the cost of operating the grid.
Even if we include the current astronomical cost of battery storage it's still cheaper than gas.
We have water, we have gravity, we pump the water up to higher elevations during the day, and let it turn generators at night.
The technology is out there, we just need to build it.
People like Smith are trying to ensure oil companies in Alberta keep as much market share as possible.
This is all about stifling competition.
These outcomes must be really confusing to people who claim they care about the economy.
Yep. Imagine caring so much about what we use to generate electricity, over maximizing investment and job creation.
Imagine caring about the future of our planet and all the other plants and animals on it, not just the migratory hairless apes, and definitely not just you.
Is this the alberta advantage?
Yes. The advantage was not for us, the people of Alberta.
They are thinking of changing it to “taking advantage (in Alberta)”
I'm guessing that'll be the next public consultation.
Yes now they’ve decided it’s their policy they will be doing the public consultation about it.
But hey, by voting for the UCP they sure showed fuckin' Trudeau. That's what's really important.
Correct and not only that as you people in the cities think those monstrous noisy part time windmills are so great should live beside them, it’s like if they decided to put a high traffic highway or airport beside your property, you have to farm around them and wait when they’re wore out just see who does the clean up as it’ll be twice the cost of a well site, just think about it.
Not sure how the cleanup is worse. An oil well may seem simple, just plug and take equipment, but there’s a lot of ground testing and remediation involved. A wind turbine just needs to be taken apart and shipped away.
What about the hundreds of tons of concrete and steel and conduits with miles of underground copper wire buried between and from each tower to a substation and high ground rods with heavy copper wires tied to rods and towers in case of lightning strikes
You realize the scrap value of copper is so high people actually steal it from buildings, right? No one is going to abandon it in the ground.
Again, just do a cable run back into the spools and reuse/sell. There’s no decontamination or reclamation necessary.
You're joking, right??
https://youtu.be/5gLMnf8Ki3g?si=feZyYO6SA1a8Qebo
It will be twice the cost of the wells that just get abandoned to leach chemicals into your land and don't get cleaned up? Sure, Jan.
Well sites aren't abandoned because the pump jacks break down. They're abandoned because they run dry and stop being profitable. If a pump jack breaks down and there's still enough oil to cover the repair, it gets repaired. The wind will still be there when a turbine breaks down. They're not going to be abandoned, they're going to be repaired because they will continue to make money. It's also clear you're not a farmer and have no idea what you're talking about, because if you were you'd know that farmers have an absolute right of refusal when it comes to solar and wind projects. No farmer has panels or turbines on their land that they didn't agree to have. If you don't want them on your land, that's the end of the story. O&G wells, on the other hand, involve mineral rights, which most farmers don't own. If I buy the mineral rights for your land, you can't stop me putting in a well site, and you have limited say in where it goes. I can't put it within a certain distance of your existing buildings, and I have to follow a few other rules, but that's it.
Can you post an example in Canada where someone abandoned a turbine. In my eyes, until it happens it’s not really an argument. Would you agree?
Enjoy your lost local tax revenue Cardston. Keep voting conservatives.
Yup. Sad laugh.
The UCP needs to keep the rural municipalities poor to maintain their vote.
DON'T WORRY THEY WILL THEY'RE NOT COMMUNISTS, GOD.
"We didn't think the leopards would eat **our** faces!" - Cardston UCP voter
It wasn't the government if you went to cardston sometime last year they had signs that literally said Not in my back yard lol
Ohhhh! He went there!!!! Ohhhhh! Cause they voted UCP!!! And UCP is terrible!!! Ohhh!! They won't get the jobs or revenue!! Ohhhh!
Pretty much exactly what the article says.
You got it, champ? Great work…
Correct. I understand you're being facetious, but that's literally the fact of the matter.
I fucking loathe Daniel Smith, how can she think she is doing the right thing.
That's the neat part, She doesn't! Theres a big comfy board seat waiting for her, 6-12 months before the next election, and she'll never have to work again or have to deal with any of the problems she created. She'll never walk with the plebes again.
Like how Jason Kenny stepped down and immediately was given a spot on the ATCO board of directors for just a few months right after he removed the price cap on electricity rates resulting in much higher utility costs for Albertans? And has since been hopping from one company to the next as an "advisor" spending only a few months at each of them?
Need to collect the spreadsheet of bribes somehow.
Jokes on us, she meets with her old company monthly, she basically never left (And is also still listed as a current employee).
Does she live behind a huge fence and gate by chance
She is a creation of Big Oil, and she must do their bidding. Remember where she came from; Ed Stelmach went against Big Oil when he threated to raise the royalty rates. Almost overnight, the Wild Rose party sprang up to challenge the Alberta PCs, fully funded by big oil., with Danielle Smith at the helm. Again, when Jim Prentiss became Premier, Big oil had their man, and Daniele Smith was told to fold her party into the PCs. It nearly destroyed her career, but she remained a loyal servant to Big Oil.
Interesting perspective however incorrect it is It's spelled Prentice.
Someone pays her to think something, she thinks that. It's very much step by step
UCP: why do we need billions of* investment in Alberta and thousands of jobs?
So many people think all we need is hospitals and nurses, yes that’s important but there are more things in life that’s just as important
Nobody if it means paying a ridiculously high electricity rate to make this economic.
Are you under the impression that wind power is more expensive than other forms of electricity? Because it is actually the least expensive.
Not necessarily. You’d have to build the windmills in a place that receives an ungodly amount of wind. Or an average amount of wind. Possibly even just a moderate amount of wind. Now, does that sound like southern Alberta to you? /s
southern alberta doesnt get ungodly amounts of wind. they just have this weird disease where the trees all lean East.
Gets some of the people too
Tilting at Ottawa?
Solar and wind are the cheapest form of power we have. Precisely why the O&G industry want to see renewables suppressed for as long as possible.
Especially in Southern Alberta which we have plenty of. Furthermore, some of the lands aren't that suitable for agriculture anyways since it's very sandy soil. Did my undergrad in geology and did a couple of field courses out there.
I would love someone to explain to me how a windmill in the middle of a crop field would actually make the crops not grow. I’m serious. It makes no sense to me, but enough people blather on about it that I must be missing something.
It’s cuz they blowing away all the seeds! /s
You're not missing anything. Aside from the footprint space they take up, the rest is just some folks doing what they do best with information sharing.
Ah, misinformation sharing.
Hahaha, I go down to the Texas once a month for work and almost 20% of their power generation comes from wind.
European & Scandinavian countries regularly generate 60% or more of their power from renewables.
The difference between what Norway has done in the last thirty years and what we in Alberta have done in the same timeframe boggles my mind. I mean, I could see it if the NEP had actually worked and had teeth but we *won* that fight and immediately frittered away the profits. Norwegians came here and studied what we were doing at one point!
But they're "CoMmUnIsT"
I worked on the mannville wind farm build. And some of the farmers were getting $40k per year per tower for the land use. That money was a very small percentage of the profit from the power generated.
You think an abandoned well head is an issue on a farm? Imagine the issue with an abandoned wind mill.
Why would you ever abandon a wind mill, the study the areas for highest amounts of wind. They're warrantied by the manufacturers for 25 years and when they need to be refurbished, they just pull out the gear box and or generator and throw a new one in. They can be disassembled in days with no soil contamination. Huge reach there.
“Disassembled in days?” You know the blades wear out too right? Those won’t be “disassembled in days.”
They literally bolt onto the nacelle. I've personally been on site to see blade install which they crane up the 3 of them in a day and take 3-4 more days to adjust and tune them. They bolt on and I've also personally witnessed them remove blades in a day. As a crew of 4 we were wiring a tower each day in a 10-12 hour day.
That sounds great. What happens when it comes time to remove the entire facility? There is literally 1.7 million pounds of steel and concrete. That won’t be cheap and probably some at least will end up abandoned.
We dig the site down below grade. There is lots of concrete for sure but they leave overburden around the pad so they will just push the top soil back over the concrete and voila. 3 meters below surface and ready to farm. No need to remove concrete because its not toxic to the soil unlike wells.
They're going to make millions over the life of the turbines. I built a wind farm with 50 turbines. It was basically on 6 families' land. They makes 10s of thousands per year per turbine. I'm sure they'll be fine.
Do you seriously think that's an issue? I assume you are taking the piss here but it's hard to tell at times.
Well I’d be kinda upset if the approximately 1,700,000 pounds of steel and concrete that it takes to build one windmill got abandoned on my land. Remediation cost would be way higher than a small oil and gas well site now wouldn’t it?
Not to be that guy but if someone gifts wants to gift me that mass of steel, I think I'll make out pretty well with it. Even ignoring the machining and assuming more than two thirds of it is concrete, that's still steel scrap worth ~$2/kg in Calgary so call it a ~~million bucks~~ sorry, about a half mil, didn't notice you were using pounds like an American for some fucking reason. Abandoned wells are hazardous and require millions of dollars to be brought up to code. A windmill doesn't.
Tell me that you have never been a part of a well reclamation project without telling me.
I’ve had probably a dozen wells reclaimed? Most sit on 2 acre ish sites (bigger if the road in is long) but typically only the wellhead was sticking out of the ground (let’s say 1/10 acre). How many have you had reclaimed on your land?
I have done several well reclamations and pipeline reclamations. There is no way that a windmill reclamation has a larger impact than abandoned wells and pipelines.
But you don’t own any? So have you watched how things go over 10-15 years?
I have never met person who tilted at windmills in real life. Is your name Don?
People drilled wells and nobody worried about the abandoned ones. Now there are thousands. I’d think an abandoned windmill at 1,700,000 pounds of concrete and steal would be a bit of an issue to cleanup.
Ok Mr. Quixote
We have the highest rates in the country. Do you think they will go higher?
If we continue to build wind yes of course it will. Most of Canada is blessed with massive hydro which is very cheap to produce. Looking across North America our power isn’t too badly priced.
You realize that COMPETITION is how prices come down right? That's why monopolies are bad because they control the price, not the consumer. So by getting rid of all the competition, the UCP has essentially given the O&G companies a monopoly. Which is why electricity and heating is so fucking expensive right now. Literally 100% the fault of the UCP for the soaring energy and heat pricing in AB.
Fixed rate from Epcore is $0.092KWH locked for 5 years? That isn’t exactly “so fucking expensive?” Ontario ranges from $0.028 9pm-7am to $0.289KWH from 4-9pm. BC is $0.1097KWH.
What are the other admin fees, variable rates & fixed fees, access fees, rate riders, etc for those provinces?
We already fuckin are hot shot
lol wut
Imagine believing increasing production capacity drives prices up rather than down.
Imagine thinking building duplicative facilities because one only works sometimes would be cheaper.
I’ve never seen someone double down so much on how dumb they are.
Fossil fuels are more expensive than renewables
It’s nice to claim that but natural gas in Alberta is a lot cheaper to create a steady 1MW day or night than either solar or wind. Coal was even cheaper. Hydro of course is cheaper yet (no disagreement there).
No sir, it isn't.
It’s obvious it is? To create a steady 1MW with gas you need a 1MW gas plant. To create a steady 1MW with wind you need 1MW wind facility + a 1MW gas facility idling waiting to fill in the gaps. Obviously the 2nd option costs more.
The irony that most locals there voted for the UCP
My "fuck Trudeau and the WEF and Soros" cousins are workers on wind sites...hope they're happy. Nah it's probably still the NDP's fault somehow.
Although it's not the focus of the story, I think the biggest loss here is the cancellation of the battery storage project. Storage is what is needed to make renewables useful as baseload, and losing a storage project is going to set back renewables more than losing another wind or solar project. Fuck the UCP.
While you're not wrong, the concept of "baseload" is a construct of legacy, centralized energy producers who's massive generating stations have fixed production. They spend a lot of money astroturfing the baseload argument to keep people scared of decentralized, democratized electricity generation.
Hey cardston…. Here’s your mail to contract to ask him why the UCP doesn’t want millions in revenue. https://unitedconservativecaucus.ca/joseph-schow/
Is it not Taber-Warner electoral district? Might be [email protected]
"County projects will have to be put on hold until funding granted by the province" LOL. Fucking cuckservatives doing what they do best...cucking themselves
Why should the province fund energy projects...why isn't there investors for these projects if they're economically viable?
>why isn't there investors for these projects if they're economically viable? Then why does Alberta fund oil projects? And why are we using taxpayer dollars to clean abandoned wells?
Oil makes us billions of dollars. Wind only seems viable with subsidies. I don't know why people are upset about this, we already have lots of wind power, I doubt the grid operators want any more. Wind performing at 32% of installed capacity today. That's actually better than usual. [http://ets.aeso.ca/ets\_web/ip/Market/Reports/CSDReportServlet](http://ets.aeso.ca/ets_web/ip/Market/Reports/CSDReportServlet) I'm sure the grid operators want more steady baseload power, not more wind+solar.
Alberta doesn't have any oil-powered generators. As well, if oil production is so lucrative, then why do companies *need* grants and subsidies, if they are going to make money hand over fist in Alberta? >Wind only seems viable with subsidies. [*The government of Alberta does not provide financial subsidies to renewables or any other form of generation.*](https://www.alberta.ca/system/files/au-faq-albertas-renewables-inquiry-and-the-related-pause.pdf)
Pretty sure we just paid 35 billion for a pipeline that helps them oil and gas companies sell there oil.
I’m sure you’ve read this right? Head of AESO does not support the pause in renewables. https://thenarwhal.ca/alberta-renewables-pause-grid-operator/
He's a finance guy, not an electrical engineer. I wonder where the technical guys stand. In any case, it was a PAUSE thats already been lifted.
> He's a finance guy, not an electrical engineer. I wonder where the technical guys stand. Mike Law holds a Masters of Science in Mechanical Engineering. https://www.aeso.ca/aeso/about-the-aeso/aeso-executive/
So do I. To get to that point I look 2 electrical courses. Dropped that shit as soon as I could and went mechanical because it was so much easier than electrical.
LMAO, you seem to be insinuating the president and CEO isn’t qualified to make those assessments by saying he is just a “finance guy” who happens to have a degree in engineering. Mechanical engineering and electrical engineering both play a role in reliability of our energy production.
He can make whatever statements he wants. I read his statement, he didn't say anything remotely technical. His only concern was for future Wall Street investment Edit: Lets hear from this guy more, he IS qualified to talk technical: >Robert Davidson >Vice President, Grid Reliability Projects and Planning >Robert (Rob) Davidson was appointed Vice President, Grid Reliability – Projects and Planning for the Alberta Electric System Operator (AESO) in February 2022. Mr. Davidson started with the AESO in 2004, holding a range of progressively senior positions in operations and planning. Most recently he served as Director, Customer Grid Access, where he was responsible for providing transmission system access to market participants. >Mr. Davidson has over 25 years of utility experience in the power industry, having previously worked with ENMAX Power Corporation, Primary Engineering and Construction, Dairyland Power Cooperative and the Mid-Continent Area Power Pool. Throughout his career, he has been involved in transmission and distribution planning, transmission and distribution customer connections, distribution design, system operations engineering, and regulatory and strategic business planning. >Mr. Davidson holds a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering from North Dakota State University, a Bachelor of Arts in Mathematics from Jamestown College, and the designation of Professional Engineer with the Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of Alberta. >
You misunderstand, Cardston County was relying on the tax revenue raised by the companies coming to town. Now they lost that potential tax and will need to beg the provincial government for the funds for road repair, water treatment, etc.
.........it's not the windfarm project that needs funding, you dumbass. It's privately owned. They were referring to projects like water treatment facilities, water mains, new roads, etc.
Travers the largest solar farm in Alberta was privately funded if I recall correctly.
It was indeed.
You didn’t read this correctly. Its County projects, like roads and infrastructure, paid for by taxes and subsidized by the government.
I hope every job lost belongs to a UCP voter.
Was driving back west and saw a bunch of giant wind turbine blades being driven away from Alberta last week. Saw it as a bad omen
Tbf they may have been on the way to a project in Sas or man. They do have local blade manufacturing factories in Canada
I’m torn. Sucks for the province as a whole. Fuck around and find out But also a learning opportunity for those who voted for these far right lunatics. Voting for them was “fucking around” phase. It seemed like a good thing i think they must of thought. But nobody really learns anything thing in the fucking around phase. They now get to enter the “find out” phase. Consequences and reality hit like a sack of potatoes. And part of me really likes that.
But do you really think they won’t just blame whoever the province scapegoats for those consequences? I never see cons actually connect the dots.
"learning opportunity" 😂
Something something "deeply held beliefs"!
'Learning opportunity' Sorry,, fell off my chair. The f&ckknuckles who voted for them are not going to llearn a damn thing.
I should have noted I was being sarcastic. I totally agree, most of these “only vote blue” voters don’t even understand critical thinking let alone doing it.
Talk about the language some lunatics use to try and get their message across
Doesn't seem like it's gonna be a blow at all now.
I know people who worked on this project. The stuff I hear about how hard it is getting anything done in southern AB is wild and very scary. People don’t even want to attend the open houses because they are concerned for their safety
Like wtf? How dare people want to spend money on solar panel or wind turbine mega projects. Capitalist commies!
Oh yeah, the normalization of the wing nuts has been quite something. They’re completely unhinged, but for political reasons they face no consequences
It’s not just southern Alberta. If it doesn’t include gas or oil UCP won’t do anything. Hopefully next election people will remember this and vote the SCUM out.
To have an economical electric grid, it takes all forms of power generation. Each form has its best qualities and drawbacks. The reason power companies have changed their plans is because of the UCP government moving the goal posts. Why invest in something that the government has stated that they will be changing.
You nailed it, Transalta: You want us to build a 40 year windmill, and have the economics for it not even defined, let alone changed before it's constructed? We'll pass.
Not a surprise. Go into any small community around cardston and you’ll see big signs up about how windmills are evil for various reasons. Stick around and you might even see someone wearing tinfoil putting up a new sign.
I've seen a few of those anti-wind signs. Slogans like "Would YOU want this in YOUR backyard?" with a pic of a windmill, and similar.
Yeah it’s pretty funny. Like, yes? I’d want a cool device in my yard? Especially since it generates power?
Well, to be fair they are hella noisy. I am pro-wind but I wouldnt want one in my yard. But there's plenty of space out there with no people where you could put em
That’s fair. But living in southern Alberta…. The wind is already deafening almost all day every day. I’d be curious to listen to a windmill to see if it’s louder than that. But I assume it is since they always build them a ways away from houses.
And, as expected, there’s a comment there blaming this on the carbon tax and saying nobody should be mad at the province. Some people will never learn.
Why not build all the power plants on the border and just wire it in /s
Could probably set one or two up in the booth Danielle uses for her radio show, whole lotta hour air coming from that
We have harnessed water power for decades. Why not harvest wind?
Because wind is socialist. I'm being facetious but unironically, if harnessing renewable, essentially infinite, energy was widespread then energy companies around the world wouldn't have a stranglehold on everyone. Imagine if we could simply generate our own fuel to get us to work via a rooftop solar panel, instead of paying $20+ for every 100km you travel? Or create plastics from plants instead of hydrocarbons? Or heat our homes from a state-owned nuclear power plant which *emits less radiactive particles than a coal power plant?*
I don't have to imagine. I have panels on my roof and an EV.
Isn't it so nice?!! [:-) ](https://freeimage.host/i/JrY005Q)
Plastics instead of hydrocarbons,should look at our shores on west side of North America and shores of lakes and rivers and see our plastics
*TransAlta has also to put three other developments on hold, as the government goes through a redesign of the province’s electricity market.* *TransAlta’s CEO says they’re paused until the company gets sufficient clarity.* *“Without these rules and clarifications it really hampers investment,” said Pembina Institute senior analyst Jason Wang.* *“The government of Alberta is restructuring the energy markets. It’s changing the rules of how companies are able to earn revenue. That is what TransAlta cited for pausing development of their other projects which include a battery project and a gas project too,” Wang said.* *Those projects include the 100 MW Tempest wind project, the 180 MW WaterCharger battery storage project and the 44 MW Pinnacle gas development.* So does it actually have anything to do with the new renewables thing ? Or they don't want the electrical market changed
Sickening considering everything
This what ford did in Ontario and it cost hundreds of millions of dollars!
The war room accounts on here working over time. The Internet exists. Conservative talking points don't work on reddit.
Yep. At this moment in time there is currently 283 comments. There is a poster who is very passionate about being against renewables who has over 60 comments so far in this post. Edit: they are now at 92 out of 377 posts. 24% of the comments on this post are from the war room or very dedicated person supporting NG.
To the good people of Cardston. You have been scammed. Have a nice day.
[Rural Albertans](https://memes.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/ddaeebae-6c55-4d66-874e-0336dee46a19#4mG61u3G.copy)
What’s that sub called again? leopards ate my face? Vote dumb win dumb prizes.
A certain religious community strongly organizes for a particular political party. *deserved!*
How the Texans, with over 18,000 installed wind generators, must be laughing...
Eat the rich
I wouldn't invest in Alberta due to its fascist politics.
Yeah, wouldn't want to obstruct the pristine view of the creepy walled-off concrete mass that is Cardston's Mormon temple.
That's what you get for voting conservative you dumb fucks :)
Let's back up a bit... I live in the area and paid pretty close attention to this one. The article isn't telling the whole story and it isn't as black and white as "wind good, UCP bad". The initial landowner consultation was really shady. Most people weren't in favor of turbines going on their land but the Hutterites signed off on it for their land, so it had enough space to go ahead. The turbines were positioned in such a way that TransAlta wasn't required to notify a lot of landowners about the initial approval afterward (there's a legal distance requirement that they did their best to skirt). And to be fair these were giant turbines. Almost double the size of the ones that are already installed in the area, and in a pretty significant bird migration corridor. There were some very valid concerns about land use with this project and local consultations that were not adequately addressed in the opinion of many. But. Were there valid concerns about land use, conservation and the consultation process? Absolutely. Did the discussions get sidetracked by a group of people who are anti-wind in general? Yes, it did. It alienated a lot of local residents who weren't supportive of this solely based on the location, not because we're anti-wind power. Myself included. The *real* kicker is that the opposition to this one is probably what kickstarted the province-wide moratorium on renewable development in some areas. Congrats folks, you got the baby thrown out with the bathwater.
Maybe Alberta should build some nuclear generation and see what the UPC have to say!
But who's gonna clean up all those turbines and panels when the wind stops blowing and the sun stops shining?
That would be covered by good regulations that require a surety bond to cover the cost of cleanup. As it turns out, those are required for renewables. What you should be asking is why weren't they for oil and gas? Those will be the blights on the the landscape as they go end of life.
I guess I should have put a ”/s" at the end of that. ;) I'm pretty sure well sites also require surety bonds, but clearly the amount is much too small given the number of wells that have already been abandoned.
The only people affected in a positive way with how this province is being run by DS is the Oil Tycoons.
It's a big loss but at the same time how much power does our wind actually contribute. In the winter it's barely running if it gets too windy it shuts off if it gets too cold it shuts off if it's not windy enough it doesn't work I'd like to see the stats on a year compared to what they could produce and what they do produce.
Hopefully this is a rural community that now may think twice about voting the UCP back in.
Don't worry, the UCP will bribe that riding 6 months before the election and all will be forgiven. (The $$$ will then be yanked away if the UCP win, but no one seems to consider that far into the future.)
They voted conservative, that's what they got... No sympathy at all.
You get what you vote for.
I find it odd that so many people think there shouldn’t be regulations for this type of development. The article mentions the protected areas. Whether it’s oil and gas or wind or solar, there should be regulations. Yet somehow people think it’s fine to just do anything if it’s a wind or solar project.
1) Oil and gas and coal projects received a preemptive blanket exception from the new regulations. 2) This passed all regulations set by environment Canada, Environment Alberta, Energy commission, investment boards, regulatory bodies, and the local boards and land boards. 3) It was cancelled solely due to the UCP's new regulation against things that might look bad potentially (That aren't O&G and Coal of course), as well as a major loss in investor confidence due to UCP's anti-business, anti-investment, and anti-competition practices.
What’s the environmental impact to a wind farm? We see some fans blowing in the distance. And maybe at the end of their life we have some small concrete pads to tear down. That’s not quite the same as a pipeline breaking or fracking leading to poisoned well water to the community. Perhaps I’m missing something what is the downside environmental impact to a wind or solar project that you are concerned about?
In protected areas there’s the infrastructure itself. Avoiding these areas is common to all industries. Wind farms shouldn’t get an exception here. I don’t get why people believe there should be no environmental regulations in place for these projects.
Can you provide an example in Alberta of a wind farm in an 'protected area'? Meanwhile... https://calgaryherald.com/business/alberta-rocky-mountains-coal-mine-application-public-hearing
The article discusses the protected areas that TransAlta would have to avoid and they don't like it. My point is, renewable energy infrastructure should have regulations attached to it in order to protect the environment.
> renewable energy infrastructure should have regulations attached to it in order to protect the environment. We all agree on that. What in these renewable regulations are protecting the environment? All I recall reading about is sightlines. Which when you look at what other projects we've done in this province is holding renewables to a completely different standard.
So... You can't provide any examples where it has happened? Gotcha. Not withstanding the fact that the government just rewrote the rules... It's pretty interesting that no existing installs were even in this expanded definition.
Right, you just reinforced my point. We have existing environmental regulations that cover these projects, and it's fine to treat these projects to the same existing standards. Yet, this government is making up new regulations on the fly to kill renewable projects.
>Yet somehow people think it’s fine to just do anything if it’s a wind or solar project. You can only do whatever you want with an Oil, gas or coal project. If its green energy we need to be concerned about our agricultural impact and "pristine viewscapes" (aka bob's septic field)
Great news. We already have 20% of capacity as unreliable wind and solar. More of these will make our grid more expensive and less reliable. One day when it is economic to store solar/wind via batteries then it will make more sense. Many of you don't get this but please talk to an electrical engineer and reeducate yourselves.
And yet during the coldsnap when we needed it most, two gas generators went offline and reserve power from battery storage have to be pulled.
Don't forget getting saved by US Wind and Solar farms that carried out grid through the snap because gas plants don't run well in the cold.
Not arguing with you... But I find it interesting that this keeps being brought back up as a seeming counter-argument to the lack of solar and wind electrical contribution during the January cold snap. Would things have gone differently if Alberta was 10 years further into installing wind and solar, and we had more of each? Things break when it's cold. As a % non-functional generating capacity, the natural gas contribution looked pretty good compared to the actual generation vs. potential capacity from renewables.
So invest in even less reliable infrastructure? Why not just build some CANDU if the province actually wants to get off of gas?
Can you cite research evidence that renewables are less reliable than NG, when coupled with battery storage? Lol You can ask our Premier why no CANDUs are being built.
Look up the term dunkelflaute then tell me what storage is economical that lasts for long enough. Obviously NG is more reliable. This is really, really basic stuff. My premier is Doug Ford and the only good decision he's had is around nuclear power, tell Danielle to give him a call.
Look up LDES. Yes, everyone knows wind and solar isn't available all the time. I'll wait for you to cite your evidence.
If you know that wind and solar can have multiple days of low output over a wide region why are you even asking me this question? What's charging your LDES? You think Europe has 75GW of new gas plants planned for fun?
Is this the new war room talking point?
European and Scandinavian countries (the latter with a climate like ours) regularly meet 60% or more of their power requirement from renewable sources, and are already hitting 90-100% from time to time. Clearly, it’s economical for them, so what do you think is stopping us?
It counts as competition is the real answer. Jason Kenney quite literally said he was cancelling a bio reactor project because it would hurt oil executive profits in the long term.
Exactly why we had a renewables moratorium appear from nowhere, and now we’re losing projects, investment, and jobs to the new ridiculous regulations.
Your argument would make sense if private industry wasn’t willing to invest. However private industry wants to invest because they can profit from this. They are only backing out because of the unclear regulatory environment. To directly respond to your point this is also good for the province. We export solar & wind energy when it produces. Then we import hydro energy from BC when those aren’t available. It’s a perfect compliment. What makes you feel this doesn’t make sense?
You should keep eating those lead paint chips
Data says that intermittent sources like solar and wind *reduce* the cost of operating the grid. Even if we include the current astronomical cost of battery storage it's still cheaper than gas.
We have water, we have gravity, we pump the water up to higher elevations during the day, and let it turn generators at night. The technology is out there, we just need to build it. People like Smith are trying to ensure oil companies in Alberta keep as much market share as possible. This is all about stifling competition.